S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[Idahoforspn]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I posted it in the SuperNormal thread if anyone wants to see it.

I see you added part 3.  Thank you very much!!

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Hess was the head of Not!Hogwarts, presumably pretty high up the pecking order, so if not her, then who?

I just get the impression the Brits think everyone is expendable, not matter how high up they are. So, I don't think they would save anyone unless it was convenient or beneficial. Hess failed in her task, saving her was no benefit to them.

[CluelessDrifter]

25 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I know you're illustrating Ackles acting ability, but, for me, him calling out a writer as clueless is unprofessional and doesn't sound like something he would do. Maybe it was the booze lowering his normal inhibitions. 

I don't think Idahoforspn meant that he said Berens was clueless.  I think she meant that he said Berens had no idea how much that scene meant to Jensen in explaining Dean and also where Dean was at with Mary (possibly all year).  I haven't seen it, but I think he also mentioned that he hadn't known all season why Amara thought Dean needed Mary the most, and in that scene, it hit him that what Dean needed most was to forgive Mary.   

Edited May 23, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I know you're illustrating Ackles acting ability, but, for me, him calling out a writer as clueless is unprofessional and doesn't sound like something he would do. Maybe it was the booze lowering his normal inhibitions. 

Of course he didn't call out a writer. Watch the panel. 

[Bessie]

12 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I haven't seen it, but I think he also mentioned that he hadn't known all season why Amara thought Dean needed Mary the most, and in that scene, it hit him that what Dean needed most was to forgive Mary.   

Ah. That makes more sense. So it sounds like he was actually complimenting Berens. That sounds more like Ackles. And resonates with what happened over the course of the Mary/Dean storyline.  

[Idahoforspn]

17 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I don't think Idahoforspn meant that he said Berens was clueless.  I think she meant that he said Berens had no idea how much that scene meant to Jensen in explaining Dean and also where Dean was at with Mary (possibly all year).  I haven't seen it, but I think he also mentioned that he hadn't known all season why Amara thought Dean needed Mary the most, and in that scene, it hit him that what Dean needed most was to forgive Mary.   

Yes. You said it better than I did.

1 minute ago, Bessie said:

Ah. That makes more sense. So it sounds like he was actually complimenting Berens. 

Jensen may have been complimenting him but I find it sad that Berens didn't understand the Dean/Mary dynamic enough to have intentionally written a scene that pulled the whole year together. So I guess I'm the one calling out Berens a little.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Ah. That makes more sense. So it sounds like he was actually complimenting Berens. That sounds more like Ackles. And resonates with what happened over the course of the Mary/Dean storyline.  

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I think he was complimenting Berens but then Berens seemed to imply, either joking or not, that it wasn't necessarily planned all along for Dean to have needed Mary back  to forgive her. Jensen seemed to be saying IMO that, even if it was a happy accident it was good for him to find that beat to play the forgiveness scene.  

[Bessie]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen seemed to be saying IMO that, even if it was a happy accident it was good for him to find that beat to play the forgiveness scene.  

I felt like he was saying he didn't quite get it until that scene. Once he saw the line about forgiveness, the lightbulb went off. And he understood where the writers were going with it all season. 

Not that I'm inclined to give the writers wiggle room (cause I don't think they've been very good lately), but I don't think Ackles implied that Berens had no clue what was going on with Dean and Mary. 

[MysteryGuest]

I also think we've seen the last of the BMOL.  And I think it does echo what happened with the Stynes, IMO.  Major threats, both of them, and both wiped out in one afternoon.  

I have no issue with the hunters retaliating and taking out the BMOL.  It's not as if they had the option of calling the police and getting into the whole "monsters are real" conversation.  Both groups work off the grid, so it is what it is.  They were prepared to kill each and every hunter and any innocent bystanders, so they got what they deserved.

[sarthaz]

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I also think we've seen the last of the BMOL.  And I think it does echo what happened with the Stynes, IMO.  Major threats, both of them, and both wiped out in one afternoon.  

I have no issue with the hunters retaliating and taking out the BMOL.  It's not as if they had the option of calling the police and getting into the whole "monsters are real" conversation.  Both groups work off the grid, so it is what it is.  They were prepared to kill each and every hunter and any innocent bystanders, so they got what they deserved.

I thought about the Stynes while watching the finale, fuming at how the BMoL got 10-times the screen time as the Stynes, yet the Stynes were awesome and deserved so much more.  And Dean cleaning them out was so much more badass than whatever-the-f that was with Sam and his team of misfits raiding HQ.

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I felt like he was saying he didn't quite get it until that scene. Once he saw the line about forgiveness, the lightbulb went off. And he understood where the writers were going with it all season. 

Not that I'm inclined to give the writers wiggle room (cause I don't think they've been very good lately), but I don't think Ackles implied that Berens had no clue what was going on with Dean and Mary. 

I understood it that Berens didn't realize he had written the reason why Dean needed Mary to be the one brought back. Jensen said that he had to explain it to Berens when Berens didn't understand why Jensen was thanking him for the scene.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I thought about the Stynes while watching the finale, fuming at how the BMoL got 10-times the screen time as the Stynes, yet the Stynes were awesome and deserved so much more.  And Dean cleaning them out was so much more badass than whatever-the-f that was with Sam and his team of misfits raiding HQ.

I didn't really have an issue with the raid in the finale.  My overall issue is as others have said, they could have easily spread some of that action out over another episode or so, especially with the deaths involved.  But they're famous for shoe-horning everything into the last few episodes, so I doubt that will change.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I thought about the Stynes while watching the finale, fuming at how the BMoL got 10-times the screen time as the Stynes, yet the Stynes were awesome and deserved so much more.  And Dean cleaning them out was so much more badass than whatever-the-f that was with Sam and his team of misfits raiding HQ.

Yes! They could have churned out some pretty good episodes if they had stuck around for a bit and they were much more interesting than the BMOL. Personally I would have preferred a season's worth of Jacob, Eldon and Papa Styne over Ketch. Also, with as lackluster as season 12 has been it's hard to believe that Dabb wrote The Prisoner which is one of my favorite episodes.

Edited May 24, 2017 by DeeDee79

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I also think we've seen the last of the BMOL.  And I think it does echo what happened with the Stynes, IMO.  Major threats, both of them, and both wiped out in one afternoon.  

Except the BMoL are not wiped out. They only took out this small cadre of Brits, the organization still exists and is virtually unchanged by Sam and Dean taking out these few people.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except the BMoL are not wiped out. They only took out this small cadre of Brits, the organization still exists and is virtually unchanged by Sam and Dean taking out these few people.

I think they're just going to stick to Britain now.  I think that what they did was show the BMOLs that America belongs to the American hunters and it's jt not worth the effort for more Brits to come over.

Besides, Sam shot the radio, which will clearly magically kill all the people on the other side of the radio.  It's the only reason shooting the radio would make any sense.

[sarthaz]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes! They could have churned out some pretty good episodes if they had stuck around for a bit and they were much more interesting than the BMOL. Personally I would have preferred a season's worth of Jacob, Eldon and Papa Styne over Ketch. Also, with as lackluster as season 12 has been it's hard to believe that Dabb wrote The Prisoner which is one of my favorite episodes.

Dabb wrote Bloodlines. Hope that repairs your perspective. :)

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except the BMoL are not wiped out. They only took out this small cadre of Brits, the organization still exists and is virtually unchanged by Sam and Dean taking out these few people.

I tend to agree with IdahoforSPN here.  The Stynes weren't wiped out either, just the local faction.  At the time of the episode, it was discussed that maybe they would come back the next season to avenge the deaths of their family members and to continue to look for the Book of the Damned, but it was a dropped storyline.  I think the BMOL will go out the same way.  No, this certainly wasn't all of them, but I doubt we hear from them again.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Dabb wrote Bloodlines. Hope that repairs your perspective. :)

Ugh..true dat. Thank you :(

[sarthaz]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except the BMoL are not wiped out. They only took out this small cadre of Brits, the organization still exists and is virtually unchanged by Sam and Dean taking out these few people.

Technically, yes, but even Dabb must realize their story line sucks.  Excuse it away as Madame Whocares was the head of the snake and it crumbles without her, new leadership is more isolationist and doesn't agree with her methods, etc.

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Technically, yes, but even Dabb must realize their story line sucks.

Personally, I don't think their storyline sucked. I think they as human beings suck, but that's why they're the bad guys. I found their storyline to be no more sucky or entertaining than anything else the show has done over the few years.

Oh wait, that's not true, I think the angels' storyline has had far more suckatude since probably S6 or S7. ::shrugs::

ETA: Of the two long arcs of the season, I actually thought the BMoL was the better of the two. I couldn't cared less about the Devil baby drama and still could care less.

Edited May 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh wait, that's not true, I think the angels' storyline has had far more suckatude since probably S6 or S7. ::shrugs::

True indeed!

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I tend to agree with IdahoforSPN here.  The Stynes weren't wiped out either, just the local faction.  At the time of the episode, it was discussed that maybe they would come back the next season to avenge the deaths of their family members and to continue to look for the Book of the Damned, but it was a dropped storyline.  I think the BMOL will go out the same way.  No, this certainly wasn't all of them, but I doubt we hear from them again.

Yes, I remember the discussion and I believe I was of the belief we'd never see the Stynes again. For me their entire purpose was to push Dean over the edge and I didn't see any possibilities for them returning, myself. I just feel the BMoL have been established and set up to be something more.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, I remember the discussion and I believe I was of the belief we'd never see the Stynes again. For me their entire purpose was to push Dean over the edge and I didn't see any possibilities for them returning, myself. I just feel the BMoL have been established and set up to be something more.

Anything is possible.  I honestly thought the show was going to reactivate the American MOL next season and we would continue to see more of the hunter network.  But I also thought they'd keep some of the intel and weaponry from the BMOL headquarters, and instead they blew it all up, so who knows what they will do.

[SueB]

On the scene:

I've transcribed it... (TOOK FREAKIN' FOREVER).. but the video is much better, so feel free to skip the read (unless you want to check wording):
 

Quote

Begins at 5:03

When I read it, I was like “AHHHHH” there it is.  At the end of last season, when Amara said, I’m going to give you what you need most; I would have thought it would have been his father. But Jeffery Dean Morgan’s not available. Because he’s awesome and he works constantly. Ummm. So, I thought, my God, they’re going to try and get Jeff back. And they’re like ‘No, we’re going to bring Mom back.” And I was like (frowns) “Hmmm. Interesting choice. Okay.” And for the entire season, I, Jensen, had a hard time processing that for Dean. And I think it kinda read, that Dean was almost un-  he just didn’t, he wasn’t…he’s unsure about the relationship with Mom. And he didn’t know why. And I didn’t know why. And it was kinda weird. And I love Samantha to death. I mean she is one of the sweetest people on the planet. Ummm.  But as far as from a character standpoint like…there was… there was (bumping fists together)...kind of a friction, or not even friction, there wasn’t a umm, it wasn’t cohesive. And for me, that troubled me because I like to find that connection with another character and I think that’s one of the things that drive the show. Uhhh, the way it does, the relationships between the brothers, the relationship between Dean and Cas, the relationships between ah.. Crowley even, like all those relationships, have a place, and they have some sort of cohesiveness. And (clears throat), I struggled to find that with Mary. And it bothered me. And I, I couldn’t understand why, why am I having such a difficult time, like finding that jell. Finding that pocket with….my Mom. Ummm. And making sense of what the Darkness had said at the end of last season. And, when I got the script for 22, and I read that scene, I was like “ahhh” (enlightened facial expression). There it is. That’s what Dean needed the most. Was to forgive his mother. And so Robert Berens, who wrote that script, was on set that day ‘cause a lot of times at the end of the season, the dir- uh, the writers of the scripts will come up and visit the set to watch their episode filmed. Ummm. And it’s at the end of the season because they don’t have any other scripts to write. Ah, because at the beginning of the season they are already working on their next script and they gotta write it and they gotta work. So, Bob Berens came up and, he was sitting be the monitors and, I remember walking up to him and I was like “Hey man, I gotta thank you for literally clearing up the entire season for me with..in respect to..the Dean and Mary relationship. And he’s like “Help me?” and I was “you know, wh…where I say, you know, I…I forgive you. Like, I hate you but I love you, and I forgive you. And he was like, “What?” (everyone laughes)  “I was like, don’t mess with me. That’s, that’s tied into last season. And he’s like..uh-hun (unconvincingly)” So, I don’t know if he was messing with me, but if that was a mistake, that was the happiest accident that I’ve ever, ever experienced. Umm. Because for me, that’s what I played. When I had that scene, with Samantha, I was playing THAT. I was playing that THIS is why you came back. This is why God and the Darkness gave you back to me for this catharsis, this cathartic moment. Umm, I don’t know, I was very, very, happy with that turn in the script, and uh, and it was heavy. It was very heavy, and I .. I remember I wasn’t..uh…I wasn’t going to cry (raises voice like he’s trying not to cry). Literally, I was like, ‘don’t do tears, cause that’s the obvious, and the script called for it. “And Dean, with tears running down his face..“ And I was like ‘don’t tell me to cry. I hate that. I told Bob that.  I told Berens that, ‘hey, don’t put that in there, if it happens it happens, but don’t make me feel bad if it doesn’t and you wrote it in there.” So I remember reading that and thinking “Nope. That’s not going to happen. Screw you. And then, when the scene, when we started working and I started doing the scene, and the emotion kinda started flooding me. And then it was real. It was a real moment. Uhh…and…I felt for Dean. Because I knew what that meant for him. And so, to be able to, emote emotions of a character that you care so deeply about, that’s pretty special. I’m a lucky guy to be able to do that for 12 years. So. Thanks.”

My take on that scene (which I wrote up BEFORE Jensen spoke):  

And while I realize it's douchey to quote yourself, I've done it because the phenomenon of a child unable to hate their dead parent is a pretty well documented topic IF you've explored early childhood loss.  And that's what I'm talking about here.  

So... what am I saying.  I'm saying it was DEFINITELY on purpose.  And either one of three things happened:
1) Berens didn't know but Dabb did, so Berens is playing it straight and didn't make the connection until Jensen did.
2) Berens knew when he wrote the script and "got it" but is playing dumb because he's just yanking Jensen's chain.
3) Berens knew it all season and didn't want to get caught that the writers knew what was coming and were keeping Jensen in the dark about this so that he would play it like the surprise that it was for him.

And why WOULD Jensen suspect this? He's got both parents and an awesome relationship with them (based on past interiews).  This is not a topic of everyday conversation. I, OTOH, lost a parent when I was 12 and have read a ton of books on the topic. I was very familiar with it. And as SOON as he said "I Hate You." I realized that THIS is where they were going.  They were going for this very complex (and well documented) issue that a child can't really process 'hating' a parent who dies.  An adult can see it, but many NEVER do.   But once they acknowledge it, they can get past it. They can 'forgive' the parent and move on.  

There's NO WAY this was just some random happy coincident.  At a minimum Dabb knew it.  This was (as I said in my original post) a SERIES level issue.  

But... if you are Bobo Berens, and Jensen Ackles is talking to you (and Bobo agrees, the boys smell like Baby Jesus (TM Robbie Thompson)), would you say "of course, that's always where this was headed, we just kept it from you." Or would you act dumb, try not to drool, and just say "oh, really?"  Plus, he just told him to NOT write "Dean cries" in the script.  BTW, just the fact that he PUT the stage note in there indicates Bobo knew how MAJOR this scene was IMO.

And (remembering that I ADORE JENSEN ACKLES), I kinda LOVE that he was confused all year and didn't have the ah-hah moment until the episode happened.  Because it WAS real.  His discomfort with Mary was exactly as it should have been.  And it should have come to him as a surprise that he was actually harboring hate for his mother because of how his life turned out.  It doesn't have to be logical, BTW. It just IS.  And Jensen has a VERY high emotional IQ (as Kim Rhodes is fond of saying), so the fact that he picked up on 1) Dean was uncomfortable and not jelling with Mary, and then 2) the profound importance of that scene is a credit to him.  Especially because he has no real life experience that would pre-load him for that.  

Bottom Line: I think Berens knew. I'm certain Dabb did. It was, IMO, the ENTIRE POINT of bringing Mary back. It was for resolution of Dean's childhood trauma (or an initial step towards that).  And Jensen, with his high emotional IQ, could sense discomfort was going on, but didn't put it together until they "went there' in the script.  And then it was clear as day.  

JMO YMMV

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, quite possibly, this push back against the BMoL might also get some of the other international MoL chapters to back the Brits? 

Or they all start rebelling against the tight control the BMoL might have on their chapters also - you know, kind of like GB's other colonies did after the American Revolution?

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

Also, something that undermines the "no peaceful option" idea, IMO, is that the demons and the BMOL apparently found a peaceful way to coexist. They struck a long-term deal. And if demons can do it...

I'm pretty sure viewers were supposed to think that was supposed to be a bad thing.

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Plus, the Stynes were never considered to be a long-term threat. I think the Brits are. Or, I think the MoL in general are going to be. And, now that they don't have Rowena to protect them against witches; Crowley to protect them from Hell; 

Ah - but on the other hand, the BMoL's deal was with Crowley.  So what happens to that deal now?

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just get the impression the Brits think everyone is expendable, not matter how high up they are. So, I don't think they would save anyone unless it was convenient or beneficial. Hess failed in her task, saving her was no benefit to them.

Yup.  Part of their "Code" no doubt.  :)

58 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Besides, Sam shot the radio, which will clearly magically kill all the people on the other side of the radio.  It's the only reason shooting the radio would make any sense.

Bob Berens (who wrote the script) is happy that someone finally picked up on that!  ;)  It reversed the polarity of the portal magic Herr Hess was trying to use and sucked all the people on the other side into a black hole.  They may or may not be in the AU.  Problem with the BMoL solved!

ETA: I agree with @SueB that Berens knew, at least when he wrote the script, that what Dean needed most was to forgive Mary.  

Edited May 24, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
They ain't as dumb as people think they are.

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm pretty sure viewers were supposed to think that was supposed to be a bad thing.

Yeah, I know....but you gotta admit, it was a pretty big coup for the demons! I was impressed. ;)

[Idahoforspn]

41 minutes ago, SueB said:

On the scene:

I've transcribed it... (TOOK FREAKIN' FOREVER)..

Thank you for all that work!!! We'll just have to disagree about Berens. I still feel it was a happy accident and the writing was just like with Amara where the writers admitted they didn't really have any idea ( and didn't really seem to care) where they were going on the Dean/Amara connection.  Anyway, thanks again for taking all that time to transcribe. It was a lot of work I'm sure.

[SueB]

9 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Thank you for all that work!!! We'll just have to disagree about Berens. I still feel it was a happy accident and the writing was just like with Amara where the writers admitted they didn't really have any idea ( and didn't really seem to care) where they were going on the Dean/Amara connection.  Anyway, thanks again for taking all that time to transcribe. It was a lot of work I'm sure.

Starring at Jensen Ackles... I'll do it... for science!

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Starring at Jensen Ackles... I'll do it... for science!

LOL

[rue721]

I don't know how I feel about the idea that Mary's reappearance was done as a set up for Dean to forgive her.

It does seem credible to me (YMMV) that Dean ultimately forgiving her was planned from jump. The arc of their relationship seemed like it had been charted out beforehand, to me. IMO it had some bumps/missteps in the plotting (EX  I think they could have made more hay from the weird John & Mary's Relationship catechism that Dean rattled off when Mary first showed up), but it hit some pretty clear plot points (EX  like Dean being betrayed by her leaving the bunker), to the point that, to me, it felt pretty thoroughly planned out as an arc.

But I find the idea that that was the point of bringing her back dissatisfying. (Again, YMMV!)

I mean, I love Dean Winchester and all, but shouldn't Mary's storyline have been about Mary, not Dean? And where is Sam in all this? Not even in a bitch v jerk kind of way, but just -- isn't it awkward to have a storyline about their shared parent, but have it conceptualized from the get go as about her relationship with just one of them? Shouldn't he have had more of a plotline concerning Mary, even just as a counterpoint to Dean's?

And ooooooh my god I swear I'm not going to bring up John yet again right now. You. Are. Welcome. :)

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't know how I feel about the idea that Mary's reappearance was done as a set up for Dean to forgive her.

It does seem credible to me (YMMV) that Dean ultimately forgiving her was planned from jump. The arc of their relationship seemed like it had been charted out beforehand, to me. IMO it had some bumps/missteps in the plotting (EX  I think they could have made more hay from the weird John & Mary's Relationship catechism that Dean rattled off when Mary first showed up), but it hit some pretty clear plot points (EX  like Dean being betrayed by her leaving the bunker), to the point that, to me, it felt pretty thoroughly planned out as an arc.

But I find the idea that that was the point of bringing her back dissatisfying. (Again, YMMV!)

I mean, I love Dean Winchester and all, but shouldn't Mary's storyline have been about Mary, not Dean? And where is Sam in all this? Not even in a bitch v jerk kind of way, but just -- isn't it awkward to have a storyline about their shared parent, but have it conceptualized from the get go as about her relationship with just one of them? Shouldn't he have had more of a plotline concerning Mary, even just as a counterpoint to Dean's?

And ooooooh my god I swear I'm not going to bring up John yet again right now. You. Are. Welcome. :)

I'm hoping they keep Mary around so that in S13, we finally start to scratch below the surface of the Sam/Mary relationship.  I think that has TONS of potential.  And while I honestly think Amara (who had he weird Dean-only connection) did this for Dean, I think the fallout is much larger than that.  Certainly Amara didn't think of the implications for Mary at all.  And getting yanked out of heaven and dealing with this has really been a Mary story all year in addition to the Dean story.  I think she needed to hear Dean forgave her as much as he needed to realize that he needed to forgive her.  It was brushed off so quickly at the start but it's been there since the first episode of S12 IMO. 

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

And where is Sam in all this? Not even in a bitch v jerk kind of way, but just -- isn't it awkward to have a storyline about their shared parent, but have it conceptualized from the get go as about her relationship with just one of them? Shouldn't he have had more of a plotline concerning Mary, even just as a counterpoint to Dean's?

 

Which is another thing that shows me that this was a happy accident and not pre planned. They have been writing Sam's relationship with his Mom too although it's not as stressed as Dean's. But all of a sudden the whole arc was Dean forgiving Mom. Plus I don't feel the writers have been very good at developing most of the story lines this year. 

[rue721]

41 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think she needed to hear Dean forgave her as much as he needed to realize that he needed to forgive her.

Hmmm I dunno. I dunno that she needed to hear that so badly. IIRC, they did bring up her worry about being forgiven, even at the very beginning of the season. But her worries were always so focused on being forgiven for the deal, that it mostly felt IMO like things were building up to something between her and Sam (as did his fussing over her and refusal to be anything but positive and forgiving toward her from jump, I thought) -- except that no big ~moment~ or realization or anything between Mary and Sam ever happened. I guess in a way, no big ~moment~ or realization even ever could have happened, because Sam never even got negative toward her, definitely not negative enough that him forgiving her would have had any meaning.

Dean telegraphing discomfort and discontent toward Mary all year was probably build-up to him forgiving her at the end IMO, but that makes Sam's story (of never even getting to the point of really expressing discomfort or discontent or whatever, let alone all the way through that to forgiveness) such a weird counterpoint to Dean's, doesn't it?

And I am sorry, I swear not to dwell, but there's another still-unforgiven-by-Dean parent lurking around in the background. Except that one, too, Sam is ostensibly already totally cool with (now that said parent is dead)? I dunno, I actually believe that Sam is super forgiving compared to virtually everyone, considering how he's always winding up working with his torturers and stuff, but again -- weird counterpoint, right?

Anyway, I think that Mary's main storyline (that was just about her) was the story of her trying to find her place in the world. And I'm not really complaining, I think that the BMOL involvement was actually a pretty good wrinkle in that story. I mean, most people don't have to be really worried that while their mom casts around for some kind of meaning and sense of worth, she's going to fall in with a bunch of fascist killers. LOL. But I also feel like her storyline didn't really arc, ultimately. Dean forgiving her was a good climax for HIS emotional arc, but her just accepting that forgiveness wasn't enough payoff for hers IMO.

Hmm I'm not sure what a good (emotional) climax for Mary might have been, though.

Edited May 24, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Hmmm I dunno. I dunno that she needed to hear that so badly. IIRC, they did bring up her worry about being forgiven, even at the very beginning of the season. But her worries were always so focused on being forgiven for the deal, that it mostly felt IMO like things were building up to something between her and Sam (as did his fussing over her and refusal to be anything but positive and forgiving toward her from jump, I thought) -- except that no big ~moment~ or realization or anything between Mary and Sam ever happened. I guess in a way, no big ~moment~ or realization even ever could have happened, because Sam never even got negative toward her, definitely not negative enough that him forgiving her would have had any meaning.

I think it wasn't about Sam as much as it was that Mary needed to forgive herself.

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Which is another thing that shows me that this was a happy accident and not pre planned. They have been writing Sam's relationship with his Mom too although it's not as stressed as Dean's. But all of a sudden the whole arc was Dean forgiving Mom. Plus I don't feel the writers have been very good at developing most of the story lines this year. 

I don't believe for a minute it was a through-line in the writers' or Dabb's mind. I think Jensen saw the connection for him, and for Dean. I can name ten books off the top of my head where I got something, and something important for me, out of them that was not (by their own words) what the author intended. I think that's what happened here.

Edited May 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't believe for a minute it was a through-line in the writers' or Dabb's mind. I think Jensen saw the connection for him, and for Dean. I can name ten books off the top of my head where I got something, and something important for me, out of them that was not (by their own words) what the author intended. I think that's what happened here.

Ditto!!

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Except that one, too, Sam is ostensibly already totally cool with (now that said parent is dead)? I dunno, I actually believe that Sam is super forgiving compared to virtually everyone, considering how he's always winding up working with his torturers and stuff, but again -- weird counterpoint, right?

Taking this to the Sam thread.

Nope changed my mind... taking it to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread in case I decide to get bitter about it, just in case...

Edited May 24, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[rue721]

40 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it wasn't about Sam as much as it was that Mary needed to forgive herself.

I don't think that Mary should be worrying about forgiving herself just yet.

Such bad manners to forgive yourself before everybody else who you screwed over forgives you first ;)

[Mick Lady]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 5:13 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Out of curiosity, and because I'm a geek like that

Yes Ruler, you are a geek! But I like you!

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, rue721 said:

I don't think that Mary should be worrying about forgiving herself just yet.

Such bad manners to forgive yourself before everybody else who you screwed over forgives you first ;)

She wasn't forgiving herself before she was forgiven. I think it was what Mary needed, but was also something couldn't do. That's why she was staying away from them all season, IMO. Because she couldn't forgive herself even if they did.

I guess it doesn't bother me that Sam and Mary never had their "moment" because I don't think Sam needed to forgive Mary, I think he did that forever ago. I think Sam had unresolved issues with John--which Sam got to address back in S5 when he told young John he forgave him--whereas Dean seemed to never really harbor any resentment toward their dad. I think Dean saw John as an innocent bystander in the mess and did the best he could, but always subconsciously blamed Mary for what happened to them.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Yes Ruler, you are a geek! But I like you!

Awww, Thanks!  ::blushes::

[rue721]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

She wasn't forgiving herself before she was forgiven. I think it was what Mary needed, but was also something couldn't do. That's why she was staying away from them all season, IMO. Because she couldn't forgive herself even if they did.

I guess it doesn't bother me that Sam and Mary never had their "moment" because I don't think Sam needed to forgive Mary, I think he did that forever ago. I think Sam had unresolved issues with John--which Sam got to address back in S5 when he told young John he forgave him--whereas Dean seemed to never really harbor any resentment toward their dad. I think Dean saw John as an innocent bystander in the mess and did the best he could, but always subconsciously blamed Mary for what happened to them.

Going to the All Episodes thread --

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Did you see Jensen's solo panel part 2 where he said Berens didn't have a clue how defining the Mary scene was for Dean's character? Really scary that when these writers give us the amazing stuff, its by accident. We have known for a long time that Jensen often takes what he is given and turns it into Emmy worthy stuff. The other example that comes to mind is how he changed the delivery for the scene with God. 

Doesn`t surprise me. I don`t think for a second this scene was supposed to culminate any kind of planned arc. Berens should have at least been quick enough on his feet to claim credit and go "oh yeah, you got it". A genuine "I have no idea what you`re talking about" reaction likely means they didn`t give a rat`s ass about it from the start.

IMO Mary was brought back because "why the hell not?" and the point of her being there was to be pimped as some super hunter while not making her a "Mommy". And for the penultimate episode I can see Berens going "hm Dean? guess we`ll write him in a scene with Mary." But I believe that was more made up on the spot in terms of this episode than any real throughline.      

I actually pretty much believe the same for Sam and the sudden leadership-stuff. 

Both fit in terms of how much or not the respective character has been positively featured this Season but that doesn`t mean I see it as a cohesive throughline for the Season for either one. 

[Casseiopeia]

On 5/21/2017 at 9:43 PM, Idahoforspn said:

Impala was parked in the garage. Garage exit was sealed so they couldn't get out thru there but they had access to anything in the bunker including anything in the garage. Took him a couple of days to remember because where's the drama if he thinks of it right away.

Ok that makes it  a little bit better.  I thought they couldn't get into the garage but I was thinking grenade launcher from the get go.

[catrox14]

Do Crowley's words here seem a little meta to you guys, given Mark has confirmed he's leaving the show?

Quote

In an  actual rat?

Wasn't too bad, really. Gave me time to think. You know, I've been focused for so long on keeping my job. Never realized I hate it. All those whining demons, the endless moan of damned souls, the paperwork! I mean, who wants that?

You.

Unh-unh. Once, maybe.

So why are you here?

Well, whenever there's a world-ending crisis at hand, I know where to place my bets. It's on you, you big, beautiful, lumbering piles of flannel

. Read more: http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s12e23

[The Morning Star]

About that scene with Sam claiming leadership, I have a thought but before that let me make something clear.

I'm a straight guy, meaning I'm neither a Fangirl nor a have "Physical" interest in any of the male characters on the show, with that out of the way here's what I think overall about Sam Winchester's leadership speech.

 

After 12 seasons, I can clearly see that Sam Winchester (although I love both the character and the actor) unfortunately has a childish, SJW, know it all smartass attitude to him, continued ignorance of Dean's concerns despite that fact that time of time after time he was proven to be right and the superiority complex that he has that makes him behave like he's the better man which again unfortunately stems from the fact that the actor is a short tempered teenage drama queen based on his social  media behavior.

So even if they gave him the most excellent of scripts, he just can't pull off such speeches and acting, period.

And In the same episode, I, a grown man was silently crying with Dean when he was talking to his mom.

 

Again, I'm not knocking on the character or actor because I like the other one and want him to look better in contrast but simply presenting my observations after 12 seasons.

I like the fact that Sam is now a more grown up version of himself, things just it at least now don't seem as genuine as they needs to be.

[companionenvy]

36 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

'm a straight guy, meaning I'm neither a Fangirl nor a have "Physical" interest in any of the male characters on the show,

I'm not thrilled with the implication that the straight women on here are being blinded by our hormones. 

 

39 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

has a childish, SJW, know it all smartass attitude to him,

I think Sam can be sanctimonious, but the above description strikes me as harsh. I certainly wouldn't call him childish, and "smartass," while it might bear some relationship to other words like high-handed, self-righteous, etc, doesn't, IMO, have the right connotation. Sam's not a punk kid. 

 

43 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

rtunately stems from the fact that the actor is a short tempered teenage drama queen based on his social  media behavior.

Really? What is this referring to? Until this latest business with Mark Shepherd seemingly having left on not the greatest terms, this cast has seemed to be remarkably drama free. I agree that he isn't as skilled an actor as Jensen, who might have been able to sell even the extreme cheese of Sam's "rally the troops" speech, but I've never heard anything negative about him as a person. Then again, I don't follow the cast all that closely, so maybe I've missed something. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, The Morning Star said:

After 12 seasons, I can clearly see that Sam Winchester (although I love both the character and the actor) unfortunately has a childish, SJW, know it all smartass attitude to him, continued ignorance of Dean's concerns despite that fact that time of time after time he was proven to be right and the superiority complex that he has that makes him behave like he's the better man

Then I guess our shared enjoyment of the Lucifer character is where our similarities in character preferences likely end.

I disagree with your assessment of Sam and of Jared's ability to play the character... and similar to @companionenvy, my opinions on that are not determined by Jared's looks except as they relate to the expressions he makes while acting.

[The Morning Star]

18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I'm not thrilled with the implication that the straight women on here are being blinded by our hormones. 

 

I think Sam can be sanctimonious, but the above description strikes me as harsh. I certainly wouldn't call him childish, and "smartass," while it might bear some relationship to other words like high-handed, self-righteous, etc, doesn't, IMO, have the right connotation. Sam's not a punk kid. 

 

Really? What is this referring to? Until this latest business with Mark Shepherd seemingly having left on not the greatest terms, this cast has seemed to be remarkably drama free. I agree that he isn't as skilled an actor as Jensen, who might have been able to sell even the extreme cheese of Sam's "rally the troops" speech, but I've never heard anything negative about him as a person. Then again, I don't follow the cast all that closely, so maybe I've missed something. 

That's what you said, all I did was to talk about myself and clearing my opinion of any possible judgement based on those issues as unfortunately, many fans are just like that.

Does that mean all Women are like that? No....and I never implied so.

 

As for Padaleci (correct spelling right?), There are a "few" instances of him throwing temper tantrums on twitter, incidents like posting pictures of employees of hotels and etc who He for reasons unknown found deserving of being attacked by his army fans only to delete the said tweets like 15 minutes later.

How is that none of the above?

As for my choice of words, I'm told to be a little bit extreme in that......I give you that.

[mertensia]

On 5/23/2017 at 3:25 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

But Hess was the head of Not!Hogwarts, presumably pretty high up the pecking order, so if not her, then who?

This is the same group, though, who in 1958 decided against sending more members over to kick start the MoL again after Abaddon's little rampage of death. We know they didn't because the bunker stayed abandoned.