S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[Mick Lady]

4 hours ago, Omegamom said:

Hi, guys, long time no see.

That said:

Aaaaaagggghhhhh!

They killed Rowena!

They killed Crowley!

They killed Cas!

Aaaaaagggghhhhh!

More later.  I have been obsessed with politics since That Man got the Republican nomination.  I have a new kitten, a flame point Siamese who is adorable.  My daughter has her learner's permit.  I've written a small amount, but there was a long dry spell.  (I blame That Man.)  Laters.

(Hi, @Mick Lady!  Hi, @SueB!  Hi, @catrox14!)

Omegamom! I'm so happy to see you!! You made my day! I PMed you but it was during the server change and got screwed up. I've been asking about you.

Welcome back. Don't go away again, no matter what shit (as in orange) happens!

[auntvi]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

There's also missing time between Cas entering the rift for the first time and making his way back to Kelly. There seemed to be a considerable amount of time that passed, he seemed to be guarded and hiding something, and I don't think it was just about him finding about about Doom World and Doom Bobby (maybe I'm overthinking this). I also note that Cas tried to stop the boys from finding the rift in the first place, almost as if he was trying to protect them. Not from meeting Doom Bobby, but from something else entirely. I wonder if we'll actually get an answer for that next season. 

I was suspicious too. After Cas frightened Kelly, I thought Lucifer might have possessed him and I expected him to morph into Lucifer and grab the nephilim.

[Aeryn13]

The way the scene was conceptionalized had Sam standing in the middle and tell the hunters that his mistake was in being a lazy flunky-self and not realizing he was too good for that and actually be a leader. Then one of the hunters asked him what he wanted them to do and he said to basically be HIS lazy flunkies. "Follow me". So being a follower apparently is not a problem for them. 

And they all looked up at him adoringly. One of them? Being Dean. The scene grouped Dean with the no-name hunters. He was being addressed in the speech like the same lazy flunky they all were. Sam even expected Dean to come along like one of them. 

It wasn`t that the Winchesters together stepped up and galvanized the US hunters. It was Sam stepping up and galvanizing the hunters, including Dean. That gives Dean as much of a standing as Roy or Walt, just another follower. 

If ever there was a story point that called for a co-scene, it was fucking this. And they blew it. 

[AwesomO4000]

23 hours ago, Miles said:

I don't think the other world would have had an apocalypse without the Winchesters. They were needed as vessels for Michael and Lucifer. For other perfect vessels to come along it should have taken a few more millennia.

My theory was that the destruction in the other world wasn't the true apocalypse, but the angel / demon power struggle that happened because there weren't any true vessels and Lucifer stayed in the cage. Without their apocalypse goal, there was just angel / demon violence and chaos. Likely differing angel and demon factions fighting among themselves as well. The humans just got caught in the middle both as vessel canon fodder and as collateral damage.

That's my theory on it anyway.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

My theory was that the destruction in the other world wasn't the true apocalypse, but the angel / demon power struggle that happened because there weren't any true vessels and Lucifer stayed in the cage. Without their apocalypse goal, there was just angel / demon violence and chaos. Likely differing angel and demon factions fighting among themselves as well. The humans just got caught in the middle both as vessel canon fodder and as collateral damage.

That's my theory on it anyway.

This is my theory also. Mary never said yes, John died, Dean and Sam were never born. Raphael and the other dicks with wings who wanted Lucifer out and humanity destroyed declared (non apocalyptic) war for the planet without him. Demons said oh, hell no - this bitch is ours. Chaos ensued. Mary went from hunter to soldier in this war, and (according to Not!Bobby) when in her cups, waxed poetic about her lost love. Thus, Not!Bobby knew of a John Winchester, dead lo these many years, and Mary met her end 10 years ago. If all that is true, then the only people who are off the table as dopplegangers in Other!World are John, Mary, Dean and Sam. Probably Rufus, too, since Not!Bobby named his weapon after him, I'm guessing he was still his hunter/soldier partner and was killed.

All that of course is dependent on the showrunner sticking to canon timelines, which, yeah, I'll do it myself. *slaps self upside head*

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I didn't think they were trying to redeem Lady I'mgladshe'sdeadnow at all.  And I'm kind of glad they didn't go that route.  That just gets old.

 

Agreed. And even though I'd have liked Sam to have his shot at her, I'm even more happy she was hoisted on her own petard.

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Never would have worked.  Sam would not have been able to get through to Mary like Dean was able to.  Then Mary would have been lost to both of them forever - just so Dean could have the big Hero moment you want for him, not even what he would want for himself.   In terms of "the Family Business" motto, Dean is the bigger Hero in this episode.  He's the only one who SAVED someone.  

<snip>

Well, except for the fact that standing on his bad leg all that time would have been pretty painful, Dean was right next to Sam, so I don't see the difference between that and the (or sitting) scenario.  I thought it was pretty obvious that Sam had Dean's support.

 

The more I think about this episode, the more I agree with all this. While the Dean!Girl in me wants him to do all the things, all the time, this... this is exactly what Dean would do. In fact, I think even if he was not hurt, he would've chosen to a) give Sam his shot at redemption, in his own eyes and in the eyes of the hunting community. And even more-so, b) save his mother. I feel like he was on somewhat of a razor's edge there - like, if after all they've done, all they still have to do, if he has to kill or be killed by his own mother, what's the point? He had to think there was every chance Lady Twat would cut both their throats as soon as he was under - and he did it anyway. Plot contrivance? Sure. But one that really is Dean at his core: save his family, or die trying.

And huh, I just realized what the title of this episode is: Who We Are. 

Yeah.

Edited May 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Agreed. And even though I'd have liked Sam to have his shot at her, I'm even more happy she was hoisted on her own petard.

 

The more I think about this episode, the more I agree with all this. While the Dean!Girl in me wants him to do all the things, all the time, this... this is exactly what Dean would do. In fact, I think even if he was not hurt, he would've chosen to a) give Sam his shot at redemption, in his own eyes and in the eyes of the hunting community. And even more-so, b) save his mother. I feel like he was on somewhat of a razor's edge there - like, if after all they've done, all they still have to do, if he has to kill or be killed by his own mother, what's the point? He had to think there was every chance Lady Twat would cut both their throats as soon as he was under - and he did it anyway. Plot contrivance? Sure. But one that really is Dean at his core: save his family, or die trying.

I completely agree.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The more I think about this episode, the more I agree with all this. While the Dean!Girl in me wants him to do all the things, all the time, this... this is exactly what Dean would do.

I don`t even mind so much they he didn`t partake in the actual raid - yes, it is something that I find more exciting to watch than emo but both "stories", if you will, got pretty much equal treatment in the episode - but I did mind the "flunky nr.7" place he held in the set-up for the raid.

Compared to hunters funeral ep where it was clear that both had stories told about them by other hunters, this was an epic fail for me. I would have prefered to have him start earlier with the Mary stuff then and not be in this scene. At least then there would have been a reason why he didn`t address the other hunters or was presented as co-leader. But being there and playing the same role as Roy and Walt? Fuck no.   

[HunterHunted]

LKetch ya later!!!

On 5/18/2017 at 8:16 PM, bettername2come said:

I liked this one so much more than I expected to. Yay for low expectations. They used the fucking grenade launcher! They wore t-shirts! Dean and Jody held hands! Acknowledgment of a continuing friendship between Donna and Jody! Dean told off Mary and forgave her because he makes those same deals! Winchester group hug! BMOL dead! They didn't completely redeem Toni before killing her! Jody shot fake Umbridge in the head! And took down Mary! 

Also, I'm deeply amused that the lady in charge didn't even know which one was Sam and which was Dean.

I can't laugh at the head BMoL lady, Hess, not knowing which one was Sam and which was Dean because this typifies everything that was wrong with the BMoL plot. They had just enough information to be dangerous, but the storyline never reflected that not knowing the nuances was also a hindrance when it should have been. Hess knows that Sam and Dean are close to Castiel and Crowley, but seems to be surprised about Lucifer and was seemingly clueless about the Winchesters being the true vessels, the angel and demon tablets, the leviathans, the Mark, and Chuck and Amara. They also seemed to have no clue that Mary has been dead for 30 years. So it became hard to listen to and watch their smug condescending superiority when they didn't seem to be aware of the score with America and the Winchesters. A much better story would have been that the BMoL tried to organize the American hunters, but the more the BMoL learned the more they realized that Sam and Dean are two of the most dangerous people on the planet. Lady Toni's first episodes hinted that she knew just how important/dangerous the Winchesters were. And even if it came to the BMoL deciding to kill or marginalize Sam and Dean and some of the other hunters, it could be about hunters who wanted to stop the Winchesters because the two of them stumble into things trying to protect each other and come awfully close to destroying the world a lot.

[MysteryGuest]

I just don't see it as Dean playing second fiddle here.  Everyone knows Sam and Dean are a united front.  But Sam wanted to make it known that he had made the bad decision.  He was admitting that and then asking the other hunters to trust him again and help them take out the BMOL.  Sam fully expected Dean to be part of that equation, which is why he was surprised and a bit uncertain when Dean said he wasn't going to go.  Sam may have technically led the charge against the BMOL, but the other hunters weren't just following like lemmings.  They all had the same goal.  And they showed each hunter playing their own part in the mission.  

It's impossible for the show to satisfy every fan's desire for their favorite character.  Some want action, some want emotion, etc.  I think they actually did a pretty good job of giving us both for both characters in this episode.  I do feel bad for the fans who favored Crowley or Castiel.  They definitely didn't get what they wanted. While I've always enjoyed both characters a lot, my favorite was at least still standing at the end.  

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t even mind so much they he didn`t partake in the actual raid - yes, it is something that I find more exciting to watch than emo but both "stories", if you will, got pretty much equal treatment in the episode - but I did mind the "flunky nr.7" place he held in the set-up for the raid.

Compared to hunters funeral ep where it was clear that both had stories told about them by other hunters, this was an epic fail for me. I would have prefered to have him start earlier with the Mary stuff then and not be in this scene. At least then there would have been a reason why he didn`t address the other hunters or was presented as co-leader. But being there and playing the same role as Roy and Walt? Fuck no.   

I was specifically talking about his choice to stay behind though. Still don't like Sam's speech at. all., but I get why Dean would let him do that.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

He was admitting that and then asking the other hunters to trust him again and help them take out the BMOL.  Sam fully expected Dean to be part of that equation

Sam specifically made I-statements, about his leadership and how he wanted the other hunters to follow him. And yes, he clearly expected Dean to come along in the same capacity. To follow him. Not a fan of that speech/scene. It dragged down the episode for me.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think they actually did a pretty good job of giving us both for both characters in this episode.

I agree. I haven't been happy with a lot of the writing for Dean this season and I was hoping for the best but braced for the worst before watching the finales. I really enjoyed Dean in this episode and I found his scenes with Mary to be more interesting than the BMOL raid.

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. I haven't been happy with a lot of the writing for Dean this season and I was hoping for the best but braced for the worst before watching the finales. I really enjoyed Dean in this episode and I found his scenes with Mary to be more interesting than the BMOL raid.

The problem I've had with the season for the most part is that there've been way too many "filler scenes", either with secondary characters with uninteresting storylines, or other characters I have no vested interest in.  This episode was chock full of Sam and Dean, so it held my interest the entire time.  I've always enjoyed Cas, Crowley, Jody and now Mary...even Mick and Ketch, but I want them interacting with Sam and Dean.  That's when I'm the most entertained.  

[Idahoforspn]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

It wasn`t that the Winchesters together stepped up and galvanized the US hunters. It was Sam stepping up and galvanizing the hunters, including Dean. That gives Dean as much of a standing as Roy or Walt, just another follower. 

If ever there was a story point that called for a co-scene, it was fucking this. And they blew it. 

They blew it big-time! And it would have taken so little to fix that scene!

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The problem I've had with the season for the most part is that there've been way too many "filler scenes", either with secondary characters with uninteresting storylines, or other characters I have no vested interest in.  This episode was chock full of Sam and Dean, so it held my interest the entire time.  I've always enjoyed Cas, Crowley, Jody and now Mary...even Mick and Ketch, but I want them interacting with Sam and Dean.  That's when I'm the most entertained.  

I agree. I find myself losing interest when the peripheral characters are the focal point of the story with minimal Sam and Dean.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. I haven't been happy with a lot of the writing for Dean this season and I was hoping for the best but braced for the worst before watching the finales. I really enjoyed Dean in this episode and I found his scenes with Mary to be more interesting than the BMOL raid.

Jensen was outstanding in those scenes. My complaint is that Dean's own consequences of Mary's deal weren't considered enough to get through to Mary. It was all about how it affected Sam's life, and the one thing Dean did get to claim, his parentification, he downplayed by saying he 'couldn't do it'. He could and did do it, but that's beside the point that he suffered every bit as much as Sam did. Sure, he made the choice to go to Hell, but he made that as a product of the man he was raised, trained, dare I say, brainwashed to be.

It still makes me happy that he is the one that has always been able to break through to the people he loves - John, Bobby, Mary. I don't count Sam in that equation, but that's another post.

Edited May 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. I find myself losing interest when the peripheral characters are the focal point of the story with minimal Sam and Dean.

Or at least doing things that are for a Sam and Dean storyline. This whole season seemed to be more Sam and Dean in the other characters storylines. Not what I want to watch.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My complaint is that Dean's own consequences of Mary's deal weren't considered enough to get through to Mary. It was all about how it affected Sam's life, and the one thing Dean did get to claim, his parentification, he downplayed by saying he 'couldn't do it'. He could and did do it, but that's beside the point that he suffered every bit as much as Sam did.

I do wish that Dean had spoken more about what he went through as well but he's always put Sam's well being before his own. Yeah it sucks but that's why I felt it was in character for him to focus on what her deal did to Sam instead of how it affected him. He's never been one to complain about the raw deal that he's been dealt because he just seems to think that it's his lot in life. Sad, but again in character :(

[Pondlass1]

26 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

The problem I've had with the season for the most part is that there've been way too many "filler scenes", either with secondary characters with uninteresting storylines, or other characters I have no vested interest in

This ^ in a nutshell has been my issue with season 12.  Sam and Dean are the reason we watch.  They are the bread and butter.  They don't have to be in every scene of course, but they need to be involved and connected to whatever is at the forefront of the ongoing storyline.  Too much of A does this, meanwhile back the ranch B does that.  It's been an issue with both Cas and Crowley off doing their own thing or gone for weeks without explanation.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

This ^ in a nutshell has been my issue with season 12.  Sam and Dean are the reason we watch.  They are the bread and butter.  They don't have to be in every scene of course, but they need to be involved and connected to whatever is at the forefront of the ongoing storyline.  Too much of A does this, meanwhile back the ranch B does that.  It's been an issue with both Cas and Crowley off doing their own thing or gone for weeks without explanation.

I agree but it was MysteryGuest's quote, not mine ?

[Geordiegirl1967]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

This ^ in a nutshell has been my issue with season 12.  Sam and Dean are the reason we watch.  They are the bread and butter.  They don't have to be in every scene of course, but they need to be involved and connected to whatever is at the forefront of the ongoing storyline.  Too much of A does this, meanwhile back the ranch B does that.  It's been an issue with both Cas and Crowley off doing their own thing or gone for weeks without explanation.

Totally agree with this. It's been my main problem with this season. They need to sort it out for s13. There are lots of ways to give Js time off without diminishing the focus on Sam and Dean (I posted a list of ideas recently). The recent info about an ep in s13 (avoiding spoilers) is a good example. They're currently relying too much, as you say, of separating them onscreen for nonsensical reasons, or reducing the number of mins they're on screen to focus on other chs. It's not working. 

[Pondlass1]

On 5/19/2017 at 9:56 AM, rue721 said:

I was aggravated by the thing that it's somehow lazy or bad to follow rather than lead

I'd suggest Dean is a born leader, and Sam more the follower.  No matter the showrunner or writer - this has pretty much remained the same since day one.  We can't all be leaders. As Crowley would say - "It's math".   I'm a follower.  Nothin' wrong with that. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jensen was outstanding in those scenes. My complaint is that Dean's own consequences of Mary's deal weren't considered enough to get through to Mary. It was all about how it affected Sam's life, and the one thing Dean did get to claim, his parentification, he downplayed by saying he 'couldn't do it'. He could and did do it, but that's beside the point that he suffered every bit as much as Sam did. Sure, he made the choice to go to Hell, but he made that as a product of the man he was raised, trained, dare I say, brainwashed to be.

I'm not really sure how you can watch that scene and not see as clear as day, the impact Mary's decision had on Dean. Of course, because he's Dean, he expressed it initially in terms of what happened to Sam. But when he talked about having to be Sam's mum, dad, brother, protector and the unfairness, the pressure, the huge responsibility and the sense of failure that put on his shoulders it was ABOUT HIM. 

I think you are misinterpreting the 'I couldn't do it'. I don't think that was about him failing at being Sam's parents as well as his brother. I'm sure he meant that he thinks he failed at protecting him. We know, going right back to AHBL and reinforced many times since, that he felt it was his job to keep Sam safe. And that he thought. He'd 'screwed up' his 'one job' when Sam was stabbed, when he was nearly taken by the Striga etc. 

I actually think Sam & Dean have a more equal relationship now, but that was there for a long time.

What males the scene so very sad is that it was crystal clear the impact Mary's deal had had on HIM, even when he was talking about Sam. IMO it was beautifully written and 100% in character. Dean is so unselfish, particularly about Sam, that of course this is how he'd describe it to Mary. But no way could Mary have listened to him and not seen as clear as day how badly she hurt BOTH her sons. 

[Macbeth]

11 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But even if everyone honestly believed that Sam had Dean's support, there was no way (for the hunters, anyway) of knowing *why.*  Was he supporting the plan itself or just his brother?

I am addressing this in the Bitch v. Jerk thread.  If I can bring over the quote.

[rue721]

Just now, Pondlass1 said:

We can't all be leaders. As Crowley would say - "It's math".   I'm a follower.  Nothin' wrong with that. 

Yeah, exactly.

Also, shouldn't who is leading and who is following be based on context anyway? I don't think these need to be hard and fast roles. The same person can/should spearhead one project and take direction on another. In reality, we probably all do that every day -- lead in some circumstances, follow in others. IMO, it's about the good of the project or the good of the group, not what "role" we're born for or even which we might necessarily prefer.

That's why the leadership thing at the end annoyed me -- I don't think Sam made a good case that he was the one most qualified to lead that raid. I can think of reasons why he might have been the most qualified, theoretically, but that's not what he was talking about in his speech. But YMMV. I personally respond better to concrete arguments/reasons but I guess the American hunters were pretty responsive to a rousing speech, dunno.

In that same vein, I don't think it has any ~deep meaning~ that Dean usually is the one leading within TFW. He's pretty clearly the best at strategy out of the three of them, IMO, so it makes sense to me that he would generally be the one creating the strategy and directing the others. Again, YMMV.

Anyway, Crowley is actually another example of someone who I doubt is a born leader, and yet he was king of Hell. And yet even while he was king of Hell, he was willing to take direction from or play second fiddle to the Winchesters at times. Even in the finale. That was purely pragmatic, too -- it wasn't him fulfilling some birthright or self-actualizing or whatever.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'd suggest Dean is a born leader, and Sam more the follower.  No matter the showrunner or writer - this has pretty much remained the same since day one.  We can't all be leaders. As Crowley would say - "It's math".   I'm a follower.  Nothin' wrong with that. 

I don't think the show was saying there was anything wrong with being a follower, but that there is following and then there is following. It's one thing to follow Dean's lead because Dean takes the lead and has proven himself capable of it, but Sam has a tendency to blindly follow at times in the name of the greater good.

With the Brits, Sam was following them for an idea, but also not questioning how they were going to get that idea done.. It was easy to say lets rid the world of monsters, but then let everyone else decide how they were going to do it. 

Like I said, I saw as a veiled political statement of sorts. Sam basically put his name on a the petition without actually reading the petition just because the guy asking for signatures made it sound like it was a good idea. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I'm not really sure how you can watch that scene and not see as clear as day, the impact Mary's decision had on Dean. Of course, because he's Dean, he expressed it initially in terms of what happened to Sam. But when he talked about having to be Sam's mum, dad, brother, protector and the unfairness, the pressure, the huge responsibility and the sense of failure that put on his shoulders it was ABOUT HIM. 

I think you are misinterpreting the 'I couldn't do it'. I don't think that was about him failing at being Sam's parents as well as his brother. I'm sure he meant that he thinks he failed at protecting him. We know, going right back to AHBL and reinforced many times since, that he felt it was his job to keep Sam safe. And that he thought. He'd 'screwed up' his 'one job' when Sam was stabbed, when he was nearly taken by the Striga etc. 

I actually think Sam & Dean have a more equal relationship now, but that was there for a long time.

What males the scene so very sad is that it was crystal clear the impact Mary's deal had had on HIM, even when he was talking about Sam. IMO it was beautifully written and 100% in character. Dean is so unselfish, particularly about Sam, that of course this is how he'd describe it to Mary. But no way could Mary have listened to him and not seen as clear as day how badly she hurt BOTH her sons. 

But as with so many things in the show, what we as fans see/hear is deeper than what is said. You say you think I misinterpreted, I say I think you did. He didn't say protect(or), he said mother and father - and he couldn't do it. We are forced into our own interpretations, and maybe that's okay. And for me, I wanted the satisfaction of it, for once, being about Dean and his pain. Full stop. Instead, Sam's pain is about Sam's pain, and Dean's pain is about how Sam's pain causes his pain. Meh.

[CluelessDrifter]

On 5/20/2017 at 3:02 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Jensen was outstanding in those scenes. My complaint is that Dean's own consequences of Mary's deal weren't considered enough to get through to Mary. It was all about how it affected Sam's life, and the one thing Dean did get to claim, his parentification, he downplayed by saying he 'couldn't do it'. He could and did do it, but that's beside the point that he suffered every bit as much as Sam did. Sure, he made the choice to go to Hell, but he made that as a product of the man he was raised, trained, dare I say, brainwashed to be.

I've seen this a lot, but I disagree that the focus was ever really about Sam's life.  To me, that scene was entirely about Dean.  He says he hates her, she leaves kid Dean and goes into the other room to look at baby Sam.  Then Dean gets her to empathize with him by putting himself rightfully in the position of that baby's father and mother.  He said it wasn't fair, just like he did in DMaLDoM, a scene I thought powerful then and now, because it's one of the rare times we really get to see him lament his life albeit in a dream-state, same as here, same as WIaWSNB.  

After putting himself in the position of being both of Sam's parents, he then describes what happened to Sam, but as Sam's parent, he had to see those bad things happen to Sam, which is a pain only another parent of Sam could understand.  Getting her to empathize with him on that, he then empathized with her.  He hates her, but he loves her, and he forgives her, because he understands.  He's had to make deals to save the people he loves too.  Letting her know that was important.  She may not know what deals he made, but she knew exactly what he meant, and then he said they could start over and get things right.  It was a pretty well written and masterfully acted one-sided tug of war, give and take, a bit of pushing her one way and then pulling her his way until he got through . . . IMO.

Edited May 22, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I'm not really sure how you can watch that scene and not see as clear as day, the impact Mary's decision had on Dean. Of course, because he's Dean, he expressed it initially in terms of what happened to Sam. But when he talked about having to be Sam's mum, dad, brother, protector and the unfairness, the pressure, the huge responsibility and the sense of failure that put on his shoulders it was ABOUT HIM.

And this right here shows how we process things through our own filters. Because the opposite happened. Initially, Dean said what it did to John, then to him (parentifying him) and then everything (in great detail) that it did to Sam - how Sam's girlfriend died, how Sam went to Hell, how Sam lost his soul. To me, that says what happened to him and John was secondary to all that Sam suffered. YMMV but IMO, Mary reinforced that after they were awake and the dust settled. She sort of apologizes to Dean, still justifying her actions, but her fear, and she says this out loud, her fear is that Sam can't forgive her.

[Geordiegirl1967]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He didn't say protect(or), he said mother and father - and he couldn't do it.

Actually he said 'I had to be his mother and father...to keep him safe. And I couldn't do it' What he couldn't do was 'keep him safe' because he then went on to list all the bad things that happened to Sam. If he'd been a bad brother and parent substitute Sam would have turned out as a screw up. He didn't because Dean did an amazing job of being everything to that little boy, when he was no more than a boy himself. What he felt he'd failed at (in his eyes) was keeping him safe. That was why he then went on to talk about the things that happened to Sam - because HE feels responsible for them. 

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And this right here shows how we process things through our own filters. Because the opposite happened. Initially, Dean said what it did to John, then to him (parentifying him) and then everything (in great detail) that it did to Sam - how Sam's girlfriend died, how Sam went to Hell, how Sam lost his soul. To me, that says what happened to him and John was secondary to all that Sam suffered.

This speech was meant to shake Mary out of her stupor. There was no reason why it had to be just about how her actions had affected Dean. He was trying to get across to her what her deal had done to their whole 'perfect family'. So yes he talked about John being a shell after she died. But the fact of the matter is that the biggest impact her death had on him (aside from just the grief/sadness) was the responsibility for Sam, and also for John in other ways, that was dumped on his poor young shoulders. Hence describing that, and how unfair it was, and how it left him feeling like he didn't measure up and had failed IS about him. I am not sure how else you would have wanted him to get through to Mary. What would you have wanted him to say to her about how her death affected him that would have had nothing whatsoever to do with Sam or John? What would your ideal Dean speech have looked like?

I get that some people, particularly those who are very pro Dean, get frustrated about the fact that he and Sam are so tangled up with each other. But that is a fact of life/canon in the show. Of course it is unfair and sad that Dean's childhood was so damaged. But it was. That is the backstory the show has given us. And because of that childhood he does undervalue himself. He does think he failed at the impossible task of keeping Sam safe. He shouldn't. He should put himself first more. And if he was a real person I would say that to him. But he is fictional so all we can ask is that he is realistically portrayed as a credible product of his life experiences. IMO he is and this speech was classic Dean. 

So I am not sure who you are angry with. The writers? But they wrote a speech that the Dean we know would have given. Kripke for coming up with such co dependent characters and a Dean with such low self esteem and who holds himself to such unrealistically high standards? Ok but that ship has sailed. 

I am genuinely interested in what you would have preferred that Dean had said to get through to Mary.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Geordiegirl1967]

32 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I've seen this a lot, but I disagree that the focus was ever really about Sam's life.  To me, that scene was entirely about Dean.

I totally agree. It was just put across in a typical Dean way.

(Totally off topic, but I thought this would merge with my last post. It didn't. Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't. What am I missing?)

Edited May 20, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

(Totally off topic, but I thought this would merge with my last post. It didn't. Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't. What am I missing?)

It only merges for a certain period of time. I'm not sure what it's currently set at, but I think it's around five minutes.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just don't see it as Dean playing second fiddle here.  Everyone knows Sam and Dean are a united front.  

Exactly.  I think that was kind of the point of having Walt and Roy there - the ones who shot Sam first and then shot Dean because they knew Dean would come after them.  

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam specifically made I-statements, about his leadership and how he wanted the other hunters to follow him. And yes, he clearly expected Dean to come along in the same capacity. To follow him. Not a fan of that speech/scene. It dragged down the episode for me.

Sam specifically made I statements about his mistakes.  If he'd made we statements in that speech, people would have been upset about that too.  I disagree that it was to get people to follow him.  It was to get people to join up with him.  I think when he turned to Dean at the end, he clearly expected Dean to actually lead the raid.  

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I do wish that Dean had spoken more about what he went through as well but he's always put Sam's well being before his own. 

I think, as someone (can't remember who!) mentioned upthread, a lot of this was phrased this way, because Mary's deal with Azazel (about which Dean was speaking) DIRECTLY had more consequences for Sam than Dean.  Sam was the one with demon blood.  Yes, Dean had be both parents and older brother to Sam because Mary died in the fire.  She wouldn't have died in the fire had she not gone in the nursery, but Sam still would have been infected with Demon blood, so his fate was doomed way before Mary died.  

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I think you are misinterpreting the 'I couldn't do it'. I don't think that was about him failing at being Sam's parents as well as his brother. I'm sure he meant that he thinks he failed at protecting him. 

I actually think Sam & Dean have a more equal relationship now, but that was there for a long time.

1.  I first thought that the "I couldn't do it" was about all of it - being mother, father, and older brother to Sam and not being able to protect him.  And I was okay with that, because any single parent can tell you that it's damn hard to be both mother and father and NO ONE can do it all.  

But upon further review, I do agree that it's more about not being able to protect Sam.  And I think it's specifically about that, because when Dean first walked into the kitchen and saw Mary with his littleDean self, she made a promise to protect Dean.  And she didn't protect him.  And that's what he's using (her failure to keep her promise) to get through to her.

2. I agree about Sam and Dean being more equal now.  I like it.

Edited May 20, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
geez, spelling mistakes!

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

So I am not sure who you are angry with. The writers? But they wrote a speech that the Dean we know would have given. Kripke for coming up with such co dependent characters and a Dean with such low self esteem and who holds himself to such unrealistically high standards? Ok but that ship has sailed. 

I am genuinely interested in what you would have preferred that Dean had said to get through to Mary.

 

I'm not angry over this speech - I agree, and have already said in another post, that this was all very Dean. 

Now, I'm talking about *my* wish for Dean and what I, a 'very pro Dean' fan would've liked to hear. And IMO, what the Dean who has indeed grown in the past two seasons, who recognizes what he and Sam have done for the world could've rightfully said. Even a 'very pro Bro' fan might have to agree that there has been very little mention of Dean being tortured in Hell, or even having been to Hell for that matter. Maybe I would`ve liked what happened to Dean be enough to shake his mother out of it, and have some of those things expressed, rather than summed up in his role as Sam`s guardian. 

Or, as Aeyrn13 quoted me below:

Quote

And for me, I wanted the satisfaction of it, for once, being about Dean and his pain. Full stop. Instead, Sam's pain is about Sam's pain, and Dean's pain is about how Sam's pain causes his pain. Meh.

Edited May 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
to add quote

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And for me, I wanted the satisfaction of it, for once, being about Dean and his pain. Full stop. Instead, Sam's pain is about Sam's pain, and Dean's pain is about how Sam's pain causes his pain. Meh.

Yup, I would have appreciated at least Dean bringing up that he, too, went to hell and all that. If those things about Sam trace directly back to Mary then the same is true for Dean. Instead it was like beyond the childhood nothing bad ever happened to Dean and he was just a bystander in Sam`s horrible life. Like, good grief, reference more of the show in that scene then.  

Quote

Sam specifically made I statements about his mistakes.  If he'd made we statements in that speech, people would have been upset about that too.  I disagree that it was to get people to follow him. 

He literally said "I want you to follow me", not join with me or fight with me. And he expected to "take Dean" as well, as in as a follower to him.

It all harkened back to the previous scene where Sam lamented his fault not in listening to the BMOL really but by being a follower instead of a leader. He reiterated that in his speech.

Dean didn`t say anything during either scene about leadership. That`s why he was like any other hunter at that gathering. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Macbeth]

I really do think Crowley has died.  And that saddens and pisses me off so much. 

From this episode alone you had the following quotes - "You big, beautiful, lumbering piles of flannel."  "Is this what you do when I am not here - type?"  And of course - our last "Moose."

I never would have been glad to have MP back if I knew MS was to be sacrificed.

And he really is dead.  Killing Rowena - his story line - cemented it for me. 

But of course, with all of the resurrections that happens on this show, his death can't be properly appreciated or mourned.

You have 23 episodes a season.  Crowley was a major player for what 9 seasons - on a show whose call list is never that long.  His death should have been the main and only story of episode 22.  And then the producers should have acknowledged that Crowley had really died so that proper respect could be shown to Mark Sheppard.  He has more than earned it.

It should never make sense that Crowley no longer wanted to be king of hell - but Mark sold it.  He sold the idea that as the greatest salesman ever - Crowley sold himself a lemon.  So his sacrifice feels very real.

And I don't believe Mark was looking to be written off.  Within the last 2 years he just got married and had a baby.  He had a steady paycheck from a show that is in reruns for 4 hours a day in my area.  I am not saying that this show is Mad Men.  But it is a decent show, where from all appearances has no behind the scenes bs going on.  A great working environment.  A lot of actors would kill to be on this show.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Macbeth

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think, as someone (can't remember who!) mentioned upthread, a lot of this was phrased this way, because Mary's deal with Azazel (about which Dean was speaking) DIRECTLY had more consequences for Sam than Dean.

It was me! :)

Quote

Yes, I do wish that he had thrown in some of what he's been through instead of just mentioning what happened with Sam but I kinda feel like he had to focus on that because Mary's deal ultimately affected Sam more and he was speaking specifically about what her deal did to the ones that were left behind after she was killed.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It was me! :)

Thanks!  That was a good post!

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Thanks!  That was a good post!

Thank you ? 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And he expected to "take Dean" as well, as in as a follower to him.

I absolutely disagree here.  He did not expect to "take" Dean with him.  He expected Dean to accompany him, and ultimately lead - as Sam just about always defers to Dean's leadership during a hunt/raid.  

Dean didn't say anything because he knew it was important for Sam to take full responsibility for his actions.  If he'd butted in, it would have completely mitigated that.

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t even mind so much they he didn`t partake in the actual raid - yes, it is something that I find more exciting to watch than emo but both "stories", if you will, got pretty much equal treatment in the episode - but I did mind the "flunky nr.7" place he held in the set-up for the raid.

Compared to hunters funeral ep where it was clear that both had stories told about them by other hunters, this was an epic fail for me. I would have prefered to have him start earlier with the Mary stuff then and not be in this scene. At least then there would have been a reason why he didn`t address the other hunters or was presented as co-leader. But being there and playing the same role as Roy and Walt? Fuck no.   

I think a better way would have been to have Sam say to follow him and his brother against them.  Then have Dean get up and Alex tell Dean that he needs to stay off his leg or that if he risks and infection he could lose the leg. 

It would be a valid reason for pulling out and Dean deciding that he could save mom since he if wouldn't be worth permanent injury.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

He expected Dean to accompany him, and ultimately lead - as Sam just about always defers to Dean's leadership during a hunt/raid.  

That would have completely undermined Sam`s declaration of wanting to not mess up again in being a follower but be a leader now. It was pretty Scarlett O-Hara-esque in the "never again shall I..." To make good on that Sam needed to be the big kahuna with the adoring masses. This is how the scene played for me. 

If it was about falling for the BMOL, it should have been in the vein of "this time, I want to join with the right side/people". 

Quote

I think a better way would have been to have Sam say to follow him and his brother against them

I think "we want you to fight with us" would have been better anyhow. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Idahoforspn]

We have Dean's moving speech that he was mother, father, protector for Sam and he couldn't do it. In Just My Imagination, we got show telling and showing us Dean wasn't there for Sam. At least the show is consistent the last couple seasons. I just personally don't agree.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think a better way would have been to have Sam say to follow him and his brother against them.  Then have Dean get up and Alex tell Dean that he needs to stay off his leg or that if he risks and infection he could lose the leg. 

It would be a valid reason for pulling out and Dean deciding that he could save mom since he if wouldn't be worth permanent injury.

I think a better way would've been to end the speech at "We take the fight to them" and then show them planning the fight together. All of them.

But, I personally think it was good they way they had Dean say he wasn't going and why. Dean was making his own choice on what the best course of action was instead of it being chosen for him. He could've easily still joined the raid. We've seen Dean fight under worse injuries. But, while Dean would've contributed greatly, he wasn't needed on the raid to make it successful--as it turned out it was like shooting fish in a barrel--but was needed if he was going to save their mom. Dean was just allocating resources smartly, if you ask me.

Edited May 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But upon further review, I do agree that it's more about not being able to protect Sam.  And I think it's specifically about tha, because when Dean first walked into the kitchen and saw Mary with his littleDean self, she made a promise to protect Dean.  And she didn't protect him.  And that's what he's using (her failure to keep her promise) to get through to her.

I do think that he was talking about his failure to protect Sam, because he was trying to get her to empathize with him, as one would-be-protector-who-couldn't-protect to another. And it worked.

But I did think it was interesting that what initially set him off was when she said that she'd always protect him (Dean). I don't think that when he first said he hated her, that that was tactical and about getting her to respond a certain way. Or at least not purely tactical. I think he meant it, and her telling kid!Dean that she'd always protect him actually did get under his skin.

I guess what makes that especially interesting to me is that there has been this slow burn storyline for SO long about how much John did or didn't step up to the plate in terms of protecting them (v. neglecting them or using them). The other day, I was driving on U Street and was suddenly surrounded by this massive yuppie horde in polos and sundresses covering the sidewalks and streets everywhere, and that story about John not liking NYC because it was too "dirty" sprung to mind (I guess because bougie U Street is possibly the least "dirty" example of urban living that I have ever seen) -- and how John found out that Dean had sneaked out and hunted him down to some bar where Dean was in the midst of being roofied or something. That was just the dumbest shit story I have ever heard, it just sounded like such BS that I can't forget it. But anyway, so I think of that story, which was introduced relatively recently in the show's history, and I think, "OK, John clearly did take his job to protect them seriously." And apparently, that's something that Dean really valued about him, because when he wanted to tell a story about John being a good father, the story that he choose was one where John comes and rescues him. But then other stuff, like Dean getting so upset at Mary's (failed) promise to protect him, comes up, and it seems like he really didn't feel protected enough after all.

I felt like there was an implication that she was supposed to protect him from John, since John was apparently pretty good at protecting them from outsiders (whether assholes at CBGB or legit monsters). But also the thing of Toni saying that John was prone to "drunken rages" also stuck in my mind, maybe more than it was supposed to.

I guess what I am most curious about, from a character perspective, is what about Mary's failure to fulfill her promise to protect him set Dean off? He's a grown man who can protect himself just fine at this point, but clearly he still feels affected in some way, if that was getting under his skin. And he said straight out that he wants to start over and build a relationship with her again now, having forgiven her, so I'm wondering what he does want from her. I mean, on an emotional level of course I understand why an adult would have/want a relationship with their mother. But I'm wondering what would make for a satisfying relationship for each of them.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I am genuinely interested in what you would have preferred that Dean had said to get through to Mary.

I would have preferred something like

I had to be more than a brother, I had to be a father and a mother to keep him safe.  And I couldn't do it.  Dad put so much pressure on that I ended up in hell., I went to hell, they tortured me.  I became thing I hated... then continue on as is. 

Sam and Dean lives are very much entangled but that doesn't mean they still aren't individuals or some kind of hive mind who always think and feel the same.  They argue and fight.   They feel things differently.  They're effected by things differently.

Dean was just effected by Mary's deal equally but those the ways they were not even remotely the same.   Dean dismissing his own pain is character, I don't think many would deny that but his season, Dean's supposed character growth was supposed to be learning to speak up for himself and learning to value himself.

But the show seems to take that away during times when its needed the most, like when Dena didn't want to work with the Brits or in this scene with Mary.  If it was about Mary and Dean it should have not been about how Sam was effected, but how Dean was.   

But I do agre e there should have been a separate scene for Mary and Sam to talk about Sam.

[MysteryGuest]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If it was about falling for the BMOL, it should have been in the vein of "this time, I want to join with the right side/people". 

Quote

But Sam did say all of that.  He said he allowed himself to be swayed by the shiny objects and the dream vision of a world without monsters, and didn't pay much attention to the reality of the choice he'd made.  He went on to list just what separates hunters (not just Sam) from the likes of the BMOL.  They understand that the supernatural world is complex, and not black and white.  He may have said the words "follow me", but the message was "I've seen the error of my ways and I'm asking you to trust me again".  

As for Dean's speech to Mary, as others have said, it was quintessential Dean Winchester.  He talked about how Mary's decision affected all of them, how he had to be all things for Sam, and was basically set up to fail from the get go.  They lost their mother and their father because of her deal.  I agree that Dean's time in hell has been almost forgotten about by the writers, and that absolutely pisses me off, but for me, that wasn't part of this discussion.  Other than when Dean acknowledged that he had also made deals for people he loved.  While Dean's time in Hell was absolutely horrific, he's the one who made that choice as a grown man.  Six month old Sam was an innocent when Yellow Eyes came to his room and tainted him with Demon blood, and that was the direct result of Mary's deal.  That was the whole reason for the deal.  I honestly would have been disappointed if Dean had made it all about him, because that's just not who he is.  I'd have been calling bullshit if they'd done that, frankly.  The Dean I love is selfless where his brother Sam is concerned, right or wrong.  He's damaged and flawed and heroic, and I think finally accepting of his value to the world.  I really thought it was a perfect scene.

[auntvi]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I guess what I am most curious about, from a character perspective, is what about Mary's failure to fulfill her promise to protect him set Dean off? He's a grown man who can protect himself just fine at this point, but clearly he still feels affected in some way, if that was getting under his skin. And he said straight out that he wants to start over and build a relationship with her again now, having forgiven her, so I'm wondering what he does want from her. I mean, on an emotional level of course I understand why an adult would have/want a relationship with their mother. But I'm wondering what would make for a satisfying relationship for each of them.

I think that it got under his skin because, 1) Mary was hiding and wasn't protecting anyone but herself at that point, and 2) once he got angry, the guilt & hurt came with it. I don't know all the elements of a satisfying relationship for each, but the fact that he told her how he felt and forgave her and she really saw him (for a few seconds at least) means that the huge elephant is no longer in the room and that they can talk to each other without guilt/fear/anger.

[ahrtee]

43 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Now, I'm talking about *my* wish for Dean and what I, a 'very pro Dean' fan would've liked to hear. And IMO, what the Dean who has indeed grown in the past two seasons, who recognizes what he and Sam have done for the world could've rightfully said. Even a 'very pro Bro' fan might have to agree that there has been very little mention of Dean being tortured in Hell, or even having been to Hell for that matter. Maybe I would`ve liked what happened to Dean be enough to shake his mother out of it, and have some of those things expressed, rather than summed up in his role as Sam`s guardian. 

While I'd like that too, I just don't see Dean himself bringing it up.  Not even necessarily because he thinks Sam's pain is more important, but because he's been trained since childhood to comfort *others,* not himself.  I remember John in IMTOD talking about all that Dean did for the family *and he never once complained.*  That's held through all of Dean's life: fight to the death to protect, but don't complain about it.  In fact, they both do that--they usually get angrier about things that happen to the other one than to themselves.  And I'm damned sure Dean would never deliberately tell Mary  about his time in hell, if for no other reason than he sees that as his biggest (personal, non-Sam) failure--the fact that he broke and tortured others.  No way would he want to tell Mary that.  

What I would have liked is having *SAM* stand up for Dean the way Dean did for him, and tell Mary the hard truths about the effect her choices had on Dean.  But they just didn't have the time to do that at this point in the story.

I would have loved it if at any time during the season Sam and Mary could have had a quiet talk, maybe late at night (having Sam finding her crying while reading John's journal, maybe) where Mary would have asked Sam "was it really that bad?" and Sam would have probably downplayed his own hurts but told her all about what Dean had gone through.

But that wouldn't have allowed this final showdown with Dean.  It wouldn't have shocked her out of her programming if she had already heard it before.  So the reasons TPTB trashed her so completely through the whole season was for this one scene payoff.  I just wish it had gone a lot deeper or had a stronger emotional impact instead of just a hug.  

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

She sort of apologizes to Dean, still justifying her actions, but her fear, and she says this out loud, her fear is that Sam can't forgive her.

There are two reasons for that: one is (as others before have said) that her actions *did* affect Sam more directly.  They gave him demon blood and made him something "other than human."  Everything else that happened to them, while terrible from an emotional and developmental perspective, was more or less collateral damage.

The other, main reason, is that Dean *had just told her in so many words that he forgives her.*  She still didn't know if Sam would, or could.

 

About Dean's role in Sam's speech to the hunters and the raid, I think I made my opinions pretty clear in my posts last night and I stand by them.  IMO It was *not* intended as an insult to Dean or that Sam was cutting him out.  It was just poorly worded, directed and played so that it *seemed* like it was.  I think there were much better ways they could have written it that would not have left so much open to interpretation and caused as much contention and bitterness among fans, but *shrugs*.