S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[DeeDee79]

I enjoyed the first part of the finale more but this episode was pretty okay. I can believe that Rowena is dead but I don't think that Cas and Crowley are really gone. I'm somewhat indifferent to both characters nowadays because the writing has been so meh for the both of them but I feel that they're too popular to really be gone. I was excited when the mystery man was Bobby but I was disappointed when it turned out to be an Alt Bobby who had no connection to the boys. I've always enjoyed their relationship with him and I'm not interested in a version that has no emotional ties to Sam and Dean.

Edited May 19, 2017 by DeeDee79

[rue721]

I thought it was hilarious and sweet that Doom!Bobby remembered Mary as that woman who wouldn't shut up about her long lost boyfriend, John.

I'm cool with Doom!Bobby coming in instead of Our!Bobby -- to be honest, I was pretty sick of Our!Bobby by the time he met his end on the show. IMO Doom!Bobby was kind of intriguing.

That said, I did rewatch an episode or two from S5 recently, and Bobby was so freaking NICE, it was hard not to like him at least a bit :) He's grown on me just in general since he died, apparently!

[DittyDotDot]

Well, let's just kill everyone, why don't we? Sigh.

First of all, Cass honey, do you really think it wise to touch the glowy thing that suddenly appeared in your yard? Really?

Second, Luci, you've got to be the biggest dumbass of all time. You didn't even notice Crowley wasn't even dead. Then you follow the two guys who have continually bested you over the last few years through a glowy portal when they clearly want you to follow them through the glowy portal. Seriously, you don't deserve to win.

Third, I had fully expected them to shove the baby though the portal too. I'm somewhat disappointed they didn't, too.

Ah well, they've done worse, IMO. ;)

14 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Although honestly, I'm not convinced that Cas is dead. If he's supposed to be Jack's surrogate father, I fully expect Jack to resurrect him next season.

Yeah, I only believe Kelly is dead right now. Crowley is a possibility, but I feel like Sheppard has been trying too hard to convince me he's dead. And, Crowley almost always has an ace up his sleeve, so...

Rowena has that spell in her leg, I'm not sure how fire and stomping would change that.

And, Cass made sure "Jack" was born, so... .

I'll believe they're dead when they don't show up next season. 

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It looked like a CGI altered Misha, but I could be wrong and be in denial. LOL

No CGI, the actor's name is Alexander Calvert: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1947611/?ref_=tt_cl_t8

13 hours ago, rue721 said:

I'm just trying to wait-and-see with the nephilism plotline, because this thing of a weirdo man springing from Kelly's vagina is just...I don't know what to make of that as of yet lol

I know, right!! I expected some faster than normal growth, but that was ridiculous. No wonder the mommies always die! ;)

7 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

I don't think the spell worked.  One, it took entirely too long.  Two, the rift sealed after the nephilim was born.  I tend to think that he sealed it.  But I could easily be wrong.

That was my thinking too.

Edited May 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Second, Luci, you've got to be the biggest dumbass of all time. You didn't even notice Crowley wasn't even dead. Then you follow the two guys who have continually bested you over the last few years through a glowy porthole when they clearly want you to follow them through the glowy porthole. Seriously, you don't deserve to win.

To be fair, Lucifer has always been portrayed as having the very definition of hubris.  If he had done anything else, it would have been out of character.  I think that's why Sam and Dean were so obvious about it.  They knew it didn't matter.  He would follow them even if they stage whispered "We have to get Lucifer to follow us into this trap.  You're all set on the plan, right?"

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Katy M said:

To be fair, Lucifer has always been portrayed as having the very definition of hubris.  If he had done anything else, it would have been out of character.  I think that's why Sam and Dean were so obvious about it.  They knew it didn't matter.  He would follow them even if they stage whispered "We have to get Lucifer to follow us into this trap.  You're all set on the plan, right?"

Totally agree with this. His hubris has always been his downfall.

[Binns]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But if they move to far away from supernatural things...then how does the show remain "Supernatural". I'm not being snarky. Why would they do that other than to set up Dean and Sam for actual deaths with no take backs? 

Yeah, that's a good point. My thing is not to move away from the Supernatural but more to move away from the big flashy things like the BMoL gadgets that take all the fun out of hunting, Heaven, Hell, etc. Even though I love the set and the idea of a home base that even includes the bunker (ugh, I'm not sure I want that now that I think about it). More tacky motels please! 

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

To be fair, Lucifer has always been portrayed as having the very definition of hubris.  If he had done anything else, it would have been out of character.  I think that's why Sam and Dean were so obvious about it.  They knew it didn't matter.  He would follow them even if they stage whispered "We have to get Lucifer to follow us into this trap.  You're all set on the plan, right?"

Right...? That's what I was saying. He's too dumb to live. 

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

This morning I find myself slightly annoyed at how we've been conditioned to presume that some of the characters are NOT dead.  Don't get me wrong, I WANT Cas alive (if I only get one, I want that one).  BUT, if that was THE END -- I wanted more focus on EACH.  I want a sense of REAL CLOSURE.  

Now,, they KINDA gave us closure with Cas in "Stuck in the Middle (With You)".  He GOT his epic death scene. But he didn't die.  But... IDK whether or not to mourn him.

And Rowena?!  Girl needed to go out throwing flames and casting spells.  Not offscreen.

Crowley got the closest to closure in this one episode.  But he was just ONE of THREE.  I am Team Crowley and will not apologize for it. I was thrilled to see his role in this episode.  And I still want him back.

Now I DON'T watch the DC universe on the CW but I understand they manipulate reality a lot.  So, none of my thoughts come from those shows but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that my speculation (see below) is something done elsewhere.

Speculation:  
- What if that WAS the end of OUR Cas, Crowley, and Rowena but only ONE death is permanent and we get the Other World version of the character back (like Bobby is ... at least temporarily).  If THAT is the case, then I need to be mourning OUR version of Cas (or Crowley or Rowena).  Because all three have been profoundly changed by their interactions with the Winchesters.  Cas, for example, might still be slightly "off" and open to Team Free Will but the rich depth of the relationship with the boys would be gone.  And so I would need to mourn OUR Cas.

So... I find this "up in the air" bit irritating.  Because I generally AVOID unnecessary pain and I really REALLY don't want our Cas (for example) to be gone.  It's much more comfortable in denial zone.  But .... I need to process it if it's true.  GAH.  Damn rip in the time/space continuum plot uncertainty mechanism!  

Oh man, SueB! You have hit my pet peeve! Mick always says, "No on ever really dies on Supernatural" and it drives me nuts because it's true.

Don't even get me started on Rowena. The show did her a great disservice if she truly died off-screen. Her death should have been epic! I didn't like her a first but she grew on me, and became one of my favorites. I feel betrayed.

I'm not saying a word about Cas and Crowley. Not while I'm so angry.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Mick Lady
I can't spell when I'm pissed!

[SueB]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

To be fair, Lucifer has always been portrayed as having the very definition of hubris.  If he had done anything else, it would have been out of character.  I think that's why Sam and Dean were so obvious about it.  They knew it didn't matter.  He would follow them even if they stage whispered "We have to get Lucifer to follow us into this trap.  You're all set on the plan, right?"

[SueB]

5 hours ago, mertensia said:

I suspect the BMoL will consider the losses too high to return. Especially with Hess's death. Besides, we can always fanwank that Crowley paid a little visit to the Old Men and knocked them off if we never hear from them again.

If they couldn't 'spare the resources for an extraction' for Hess, I also think they'll write this off as a "bad job" and close the books on America.  

Look at what they actually invested: Lady Toni was apparently the one who advocated for this.  Mick was their salesman that wanted the job.  Ketch wanted fresh targets. They only sent about 15 redshirts to take over the country.  I'm okay with this as a "right, let's move on shall we?" perspective as soon as the comm line went down.  Someone will come to follow-up on the fall-out.  See that everything was pretty much burned to a crisp and "handled".  They'll report back and that'll be it.  

And the Americans, once roused, were pretty damn brutal -- no survivors.  Now Dean probably would have given Lady Toni her head start but thankfully Ketch slit her torturing throat for us.

[Boopsahoy]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

On record as saying these deaths should have been saved for the last season of the show.

I agree with this-Mark and Misha are such big parts of the show. I really don't think Crowleys coming back due to the way they sent him off-one final gift/sacrifice for the Winchesters-his own death. I at least find solace in that death. But Rowena s death-nope nope nope-she deserved so much more. She started out as a really annoying character and really got under my skin (in a good way).

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

No CGI, the actor's name is Alexander Calvert: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1947611/?ref_=tt_cl_t8

Yeah, I figured it out later and commented that I was wrong. But thanks for letting me know who the actor was anyway

[sarthaz]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm going to hang my hat on the theory that Alt!Cas and Actual!Cas swapped places in Earth2 and it's Alt!Cas that died.

Cas did seem weirdly confused when he came back through the portal the first time and I seen no reason why he wouldn't tell Kelly about the space time rift.  I mean what difference would it have made for him to tell her?  Thinking more about dead!Cas' wings they were pretty darn full and his wings have been tattered....so that gives me more hope it's really not actual!Cas that died. Maybe alt!Bobby is hiding him somewhere on Earth2.

I'm telling ya, this Alternate Earth can open a door for a crossover with Arrow.

But if they move to far away from supernatural things...then how does the show remain "Supernatural". I'm not being snarky. Why would they do that other than to set up Dean and Sam for actual deaths with no take backs? 

I don't know if it's an alt-swap, but something's definitely up.  That scene where he goes to talk secretly with Kelly could just be bad editing of something that made sense in a previous draft, but it sure felt like there was no in-story reason for him to go up there unless there was a big secret plan.  And he reassures her that it's going to be OK, and they're headed to paradise.

A few things that stand out to me:

1) The episode starts with Cas looking out on the beautiful vista like Earth is a paradise

2) The first words are "God, please, I need help." but it's a joke.  The writers are making it abundantly clear that God is gone, and he's not going to help.

3) Dean comments about how Crowley's a cockroach, and he won't believe he's dead until he sees the body and burns it

4) Why "All Along the Watchtower"?  This is one of the most analyzed songs ever.  Why use it here after 12 seasons.  To me its theme has been about two outsiders who value humanity confronting a hierarchical establishment that doesn't.  Is there a deeper meaning to be found here with a focus on humanity over Heaven/Hell?  Or do they just like the song?

[Mick Lady]

I'm ready to strangle Mick (my husband, not the show Mick, whose already dead), I don't care he's recovering from surgery!

He just said "Chuck is still alive, and he's saved Cas several times, he'll do it again"

I'm sick of being manipulated by this show to doubt every death. I don't want Cas dead, or Crowley and Rowena. But I want the show to play fair with us. It takes a lot of enjoyment away when they can always reset a storyline.

[Boopsahoy]

8 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

He just said "Chuck is still alive, and he's saved Cas several times, he'll do it again

My husband says Jackifer will bring him back!

[rue721]

29 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

4) Why "All Along the Watchtower"?  This is one of the most analyzed songs ever.  Why use it here after 12 seasons.  To me its theme has been about two outsiders who value humanity confronting a hierarchical establishment that doesn't.  Is there a deeper meaning to be found here with a focus on humanity over Heaven/Hell?  Or do they just like the song?

Fascinating.

Questions re the song:

• "'There must be someway out of here,' said the Joker to the Thief":  Not to be too literal, but is Lucifer the Joker, and Mary the Thief? This episode referenced Lucifer's smug smile, and IMO Lucifer is nothing if not a punk-ass (aka, a joker, lol). And much has been made of Mary stealing her children's futures.
• "Outside in the cold distance / A wildcat did growl / Two riders were approaching / And the wind began to howl":  The song is pretty doom and gloom! Who could those "two riders" be (or represent), and is "the cold distance" in our world or the Doom world? ETA:  I feel like that image sounds like Sam and Dean venturing into Doom World, but...I dunno.

Edited May 19, 2017 by rue721
quotations

[Idahoforspn]

25 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

I really don't think Crowleys coming back due to the way they sent him off-one final gift/sacrifice for the Winchesters-his own death. I at least find solace in that death. But Rowena s death-nope nope nope-she deserved so much more. She started out as a really annoying character and really got under my skin (in a good way).

However they overshadowed Rowena death with Crowley's and overshadowed Crowley's with Cas's. Jerk move by Dabb. Way to treat actors who have given years to the show.

[Binns]

32 minutes ago, SueB said:

If they couldn't 'spare the resources for an extraction' for Hess, I also think they'll write this off as a "bad job" and close the books on America.  

Look at what they actually invested: Lady Toni was apparently the one who advocated for this.  Mick was their salesman that wanted the job.  Ketch wanted fresh targets. They only sent about 15 redshirts to take over the country.  I'm okay with this as a "right, let's move on shall we?" perspective as soon as the comm line went down.  Someone will come to follow-up on the fall-out.  See that everything was pretty much burned to a crisp and "handled".  They'll report back and that'll be it.  

And the Americans, once roused, were pretty damn brutal -- no survivors.  Now Dean probably would have given Lady Toni her head start but thankfully Ketch slit her torturing throat for us.

Yeah, I think those players were big deals in the hierarchy and their loss will give the Old Men (side note- always makes me thing of the silent partners? Was that what they were called in Angel?) pause about coming back. 

[Boopsahoy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Cas did seem weirdly confused when he came back through the portal the first time

We thought that too! We both kept saying what's wrong with Cas -isn't he acting weird? Did something take him over in the other dimension? Hey Catrox14 maybe we are on to something? LOL

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

But I thought the Sam-becomes-a-leader thing was not as well done. I couldn't follow his leap from "I was wrong about the BMOL" to "I should be a leader." Someone who has just displayed horribly poor judgement should NOT be a leader. When he made the speech to the other hunters about how he had been mistaken about the BMOL, I could only think that they also all knew about his similarly disastrously bad judgment with Ruby and how he'd started an apocalypse back in the day. Why in the world would any of them trust HIM as a leader? None of the others fell in with the BMOL and none of the others fell in a demon and started an apocalypse, so I have to say, I think if anything, he was the LEAST qualified out of everyone there to be a leader.

Also, I was aggravated by the thing that it's somehow lazy or bad to follow rather than lead. Being a good leader means having mutual respect and trust with the people following you -- so if you think that their decision to follow rather than lead themselves inherently makes them lazier or worse than you somehow, then I don't see how you can be a good leader. Sam actually can be a little bit of a snob from time to time, but that speech especially aggravated me. It was such an "upper management" attitude LOL. And illogical besides.

That said, I did like that Sam explained himself and his motives, and I do think it's sweet that he's still so passionate and idealistic. I mean, that's a good thing. But man, how about starting with trying to be a better judge of character and waiting on the "leadership" thing, you know?

Moving my response over to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread just in case. As after thinking about it, I have a lot to say on this subject... and I'll apologize to @SueB for it in advance. Sorry, Sue, I just can't not see the pattern anymore.

3 hours ago, bethy said:

This is really well said. I think part of my own struggle with this development is that it was simply, "Sam decides he should be a leader" rather than Sam actually displaying true leadership qualities. I think admitting he was wrong was a good start, but the next step, to me, is then being willing to listen to others and learn from their perspective. As @rue721 noted, Sam's been spectacularly wrong in the past. And usually because he refused to listen to anyone else's advice. 

I suspect, though, that "Sam is a leader" will actually be dropped in the future in terms of it having any real meaning for the show. Sam was the leader against the BMoL, but I doubt he'll now be seen as the leader of the hunting community going forward. Not because of Sam, but because the show won't follow up with that. 

My response also taken over to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread.

[SueB]

27 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I'm ready to strangle Mick (my husband, not the show Mick, whose already dead), I don't care he's recovering from surgery!

He just said "Chuck is still alive, and he's saved Cas several times, he'll do it again"

I'm sick of being manipulated by this show to doubt every death. I don't want Cas dead, or Crowley and Rowena. But I want the show to play fair with us. It takes a lot of enjoyment away when they can always reset a storyline.

I've thought about this.  A lot.  I don't want ANY of them dead.  But right now, for our protagonists (Sam and Dean), they are dead.  So... I'm going to mourn them.  "In universe" As in, on the show.  From a meta perspective, it makes me too mad that all three would be killed off in a finale.  It feels too cheap.  So... if you see me waxing poetic about each character, I'm thinking of the episode/events from a "standalone" perspective right now --- independent of future.  That's at least how I'm feeling at this moment (2:49PM EDT). 

[SueB]

No worries @AwesomO4000 , I'm interested in your thoughts. 

[catrox14]

Here's my problem with killing off Cas in a really most sincerely dead way:

Castiel's story is far from over. He still needs a win as I don't think making sure Lucifer's spawn being born is a win considering it caused rifts in the fabric of space and time. I also don't think that is the only rift out there, given that Hess asked the invisible voice on the speaker about opening a portal for her, so the BMOL know how to travel through some kind of time and space. hink they blew up their own bunker as part of a self-destruct plan in case they were ever breached. Someone with the BMOL knows something about something about this other universe, IMO. Maybe the BMOL have been going back and forth for some time now, but I digress.

Anyway, back to Cas IMO, killing Cas would be to give Dean a vengeance story. If they are flipping Dean and Sam's roles as I think they have slowly done over this year then Dean will have the vengeance beat that Sam had with Jessica. I am not ignoring the visual of Sam dragging Dean away from getting to Cas whilst Dean is screaming Cas' name that was the mirror to the pilot with Dean dragging  Sam away from Jessica as he's screaming Jessica's name. And to further make it painful Dean is sitting next to Cas' dead body in complete and total shock looking bereft. Yes, he's devastated about Mary, but Mary went through the rift alive and she has the Enochian brass knuckles and she's got Alt!Bobby there to help her.  IMO, Dean and Sam will have a shared goal of getting the rift open to get Mary back and kill Lucifer. 

I'm thinking if it turns out that it's really Alt!Cas that died and the boys figure it out because Jack can't fix Cas because of connection or something, then they'll try to get into the alt!Earth to save Cas and Mary. 

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

We thought that too! We both kept saying what's wrong with Cas -isn't he acting weird? Did something take him over in the other dimension? Hey Catrox14 maybe we are on to something? LOL

I tried to be a grown up and accept that Cas is dead, but I fucking can't do it. I just can't. So I am finding any thing to hold on to that doesn't keep me in rage and sadness all Hellatus. :(

[Idahoforspn]

I gave up on the Flash because of all the alt reality/ different time lines stuff. I sure hope SPN isn't going there but I bet that's Dabbs plan...to open up new world's like he said.

[Binns]

30 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

We thought that too! We both kept saying what's wrong with Cas -isn't he acting weird? Did something take him over in the other dimension? Hey Catrox14 maybe we are on to something? LOL

Didn't he know Kelly's name and circumstances? I thought he was acting weird bc he was trying to process what he saw. I kinda like the idea of our Cas being gone but badass Cas complete with wings somehow makes it to our side. 

[rue721]

I have trouble believing it was Doom!Cas who died, because it just seems so farfetched to me that in this other dimension, Cas still: 

1. took Jimmy as a vessel

2. wore the same suit-and-trench outfit despite being in a hellscape where people apparently dress more paramilitary (or judging by Doom!Bobby, anyway)

3. happened to be right where the fissure and Lucifer and our!Cas were and ALSO got into a fight with Lucifer right then, and Lucifer decided to drag him over to the fissure and throw him through while killing him (for some reason). If that was our!Cas that Lucifer shoved through, then I get it, because Lucifer wanted to kill him right in front of Sam and Dean. But if Lucifer had just been in a fight with both our!Cas AND Doom!Cas, why would he only shove the one (and the wrong one at that) through the portal?

And if that was Doom!Cas, then where is our!Cas and what happened to him? We saw him in the middle of a fight with Lucifer, so it's not like he could have wondered off or something once he got to the other side of the flaming vagina.

That said, SOMETHING was weird because Cas stabbed right into Lucifer and nothing happened. The bullets didn't get to Lucifer at all, either. And have Lucifer's eyes always glowed red, or is that new this season? Is that normal for archangels or is that just him? I'm wondering if Lucifer is still an angel. Can an angel ever become something else, the way that a human can become a demon?

Edited May 19, 2017 by rue721

[ZennyKenny]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm going to hang my hat on the theory that Alt!Cas and Actual!Cas swapped places in Earth2 and it's Alt!Cas that died.

Cas did seem weirdly confused when he came back through the portal the first time and I seen no reason why he wouldn't tell Kelly about the space time rift.  I mean what difference would it have made for him to tell her?  Thinking more about dead!Cas' wings they were pretty darn full and his wings have been tattered....so that gives me more hope it's really not actual!Cas that died. Maybe alt!Bobby is hiding him somewhere on Earth2.

Ooooh, that is an interesting theory. Probably a bit too clever for the SPN writers to pull off though (have I mentioned that I hate the writers?). But I like it.

[ohjoy]

I do my darnedest to stay out of the "who had it more/better/whatever" conflict (even when it seems glaringly obvious to me one way or the other, no point in frothing over it), so this is not in service of that at all, just something I noticed and liked:

There was a moment, while Dean was standing with the grenade launcher and Toni was railing at their idiotic plan, that Sam looked up at Dean in much the same way that Dean looked up at Sam during Sam's speech to the hunters. Actual conversation context aside, the gazes were similar to me in that "I love my brother / he's pretty cool" kind of way. I thought it was cute. (Sam hauling Toni out the way so Dean could get to using the weapon he's been begging to bring out all season long was pretty cute to me too.)

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

I do my darnedest to stay out of the "who had it more/better/whatever" conflict (even when it seems glaringly obvious to me one way or the other, no point in frothing over it), so this is not in service of that at all, just something I noticed and liked:

There was a moment, while Dean was standing with the grenade launcher and Toni was railing at their idiotic plan, that Sam looked up at Dean in much the same way that Dean looked up at Sam during Sam's speech to the hunters. Actual conversation context aside, the gazes were similar to me in that "I love my brother / he's pretty cool" kind of way. I thought it was cute. (Sam hauling Toni out the way so Dean could get to using the weapon he's been begging to bring out all season long was pretty cute to me too.)

I agree; I thought that it was a pretty great brother moment.

[Binns]

5 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

I do my darnedest to stay out of the "who had it more/better/whatever" conflict (even when it seems glaringly obvious to me one way or the other, no point in frothing over it), so this is not in service of that at all, just something I noticed and liked:

There was a moment, while Dean was standing with the grenade launcher and Toni was railing at their idiotic plan, that Sam looked up at Dean in much the same way that Dean looked up at Sam during Sam's speech to the hunters. Actual conversation context aside, the gazes were similar to me in that "I love my brother / he's pretty cool" kind of way. I thought it was cute. (Sam hauling Toni out the way so Dean could get to using the weapon he's been begging to bring out all season long was pretty cute to me too.)

I loved this too! The fondness in Sam's eyes- he was so happy that his brother FINALLY got to use that grenade launcher. 

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Dean and Sam will have a shared goal of getting the rift open to get Mary back and kill Lucifer. 

I wonder if this was the reason that they killed off Rowena.   If they had a witch around they could probably easily ask her for a spell.   It's not right and its lazy but something these writers would do.

It does almost seem like a reset to season 1.  Except instead of find Dad, its find Mom.  Instead of Sam wanting revenge for Jessica, Dean will want revenge for Cas.   In terms of Cas, I do think he'll be back but I hope we get follow up on Dean's grief at losing Cas.  (Hopefully something similiar to s2 Dean).  I hope they don't cheat with a 4 months later kind of thing.  I want to see the finale pick up where this left off.  I hope this is why they filmed some s13 stuff, for the sake of continuity. 

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

I gave up on the Flash because of all the alt reality/ different time lines stuff. I sure hope SPN isn't going there but I bet that's Dabbs plan...to open up new world's like he said.

That's why I gave up on the The Flash too. I don't think these writers are strong enough to have multiple Sam and Deans.    But that being said, I wouldn't mind a few self contained one off episodes of Sam and Dean exploring a different reality.  Kind of an episode like The French Mistake.   We see a different universe but it doesn't impact the original one.  I always thought a cool episode would have been a world where John died instead of Mary. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I gave up on the Flash because of all the alt reality/ different time lines stuff. I sure hope SPN isn't going there but I bet that's Dabbs plan...to open up new world's like he said.

I still really like Flash but the show is different, they brought in time travel pretty much from the Pilot teaser and the multiverse concept was only an extension of that so that stuff is basically woven into the fabric of the show. Supernatural has done time travel and even alternate realms before but it`s not at the core of the show. 

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wonder if this was the reason that they killed off Rowena.   If they had a witch around they could probably easily ask her for a spell.   It's not right and its lazy but something these writers would do.

It does almost seem like a reset to season 1.  Except instead of find Dad, its find Mom.  Instead of Sam wanting revenge for Jessica, Dean will want revenge for Cas.   In terms of Cas, I do think he'll be back but I hope we get follow up on Dean's grief at losing Cas.  (Hopefully something similiar to s2 Dean).  I hope they don't cheat with a 4 months later kind of thing.  I want to see the finale pick up where this left off.  I hope this is why they filmed some s13 stuff, for the sake of continuity. 

That's why I gave up on the The Flash too. I don't think these writers are strong enough to have multiple Sam and Deans.    But that being said, I wouldn't mind a few self contained one off episodes of Sam and Dean exploring a different reality.  Kind of an episode like The French Mistake.   We see a different universe but it doesn't impact the original one.  I always thought a cool episode would have been a world where John died instead of Mary. 

Is it bad I just don't have much faith in the writers?

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I still really like Flash but the show is different, they brought in time travel pretty much from the Pilot teaser and the multiverse concept was only an extension of that so that stuff is basically woven into the fabric of the show. Supernatural has done time travel and even alternate realms before but it`s not at the core of the show. 

I  really liked the first season. Armies of Gorillas and good vs bad Flash now...not so much.

[Ninamags]

Well if the writers wanted to wipe everything away and start fresh for the (probably) last two years, they did a heck of a job.

I hate that Crowley is gone but he has outlived his usefulness. It was beyond stupid for him to keep Lucifer around as a toy. I mean, c'mon.

I hate that Rowena was killed and we couldn't even see her (and her fabulous eye make-up) one last time. 

I was wondering if Mary was going to continue in the show, so I have my answer. Kinda  sucks that now that she has come together with her boys she gets taken away. 

I'm glad Jodi didn't die. I would've been mighty pissed if Mary had killed her. It was good to see Alexis or Anne or whatever her name is. She looks so different now. 

It was great to see Bobby again!! 

Here I was hoping that Sam and Dean would have to take care of a teeny, tiny Sproutifer. Oh, well. 

Too bad Claire couldn't suffer the same fate as many of the other hunters. 

Someone mentioned the cast or crew didn't give interviews or talk about what happened, it's interesting in that whatever they choose to do next year we will have to wait a full 5 months for the true facts to come out. If people survive or not, I can see the producers not wanting to get hate and vitriol throughout the summer regarding who will or will not come back. 

 

I hope everybody that died stays dead. 

[ohjoy]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It does almost seem like a reset to season 1.  Except instead of find Dad, its find Mom.  Instead of Sam wanting revenge for Jessica, Dean will want revenge for Cas.   In terms of Cas, I do think he'll be back but I hope we get follow up on Dean's grief at losing Cas.  (Hopefully something similiar to s2 Dean).  I hope they don't cheat with a 4 months later kind of thing.  I want to see the finale pick up where this left off.  I hope this is why they filmed some s13 stuff, for the sake of continuity.

I don't want Cas to be dead. (I binged this show during the 2007-2008 writer's strike, so my first season of watching live weekly started with Cas' introduction. I'm gonna miss him.) BUT if he is well and truly dead, I can get behind this concept going forward.

 

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm telling ya, this Alternate Earth can open a door for a crossover with Arrow.

Great minds, @catrox14! Honestly, when I saw the CW show schedule for the fall, that Arrow crossover opportunity was my second thought. :-)

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

Well if the writers wanted to wipe everything away and start fresh for the (probably) last two years, they did a heck of a job.

I hate that Crowley is gone but he has outlived his usefulness. It was beyond stupid for him to keep Lucifer around as a toy. I mean, c'mon.

I hate that Rowena was killed and we couldn't even see her (and her fabulous eye make-up) one last time. 

I was wondering if Mary was going to continue in the show, so I have my answer. Kinda  sucks that now that she has come together with her boys she gets taken away. 

I'm glad Jodi didn't die. I would've been mighty pissed if Mary had killed her. It was good to see Alexis or Anne or whatever her name is. She looks so different now. 

It was great to see Bobby again!! 

Here I was hoping that Sam and Dean would have to take care of a teeny, tiny Sproutifer. Oh, well. 

Too bad Claire couldn't suffer the same fate as many of the other hunters. 

Someone mentioned the cast or crew didn't give interviews or talk about what happened, it's interesting in that whatever they choose to do next year we will have to wait a full 5 months for the true facts to come out. If people survive or not, I can see the producers not wanting to get hate and vitriol throughout the summer regarding who will or will not come back. 

 

I hope everybody that died stays dead. 

I am sure we will get wind of who is filming soon after they start back. And if Mark P is a regular for next year, Mary will probably be back too.

[rue721]

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I always thought a cool episode would have been a world where John died instead of Mary. 

Yes! I thought that's where they were going when Doom!Bobby said that Doom!Mary had died 10 years ago, but Doom!John died way, way back in the day...until it turned out that there had been no Doom!Sam and Dean.

My fingers are still crossed, though. Because I just LOVE that story idea.

Edited May 19, 2017 by rue721
added a lot of DOOM! because this is taking place in the altverse

[FlickChick]

Clearly I need to re-watch both episodes, but with all the talk here of Alt!Universe and who may or may not be there, it got me to thinking. This would be Dabb's new "Bloodlines" - there will be a group of monsters/demons who formed a family and now fight the other factions. Alt!Bobby and Alt!Mary will fight the forces of evil. Maybe even Alt!Hess or Alt!Ketch could be there so we get the British accents. ;) Speaking of Ketch, I thought that David Haydn-Jones did a fantastic job of playing Psycho!Ketch all season. Kudos to the actor for a great role.

Anyway, on first viewing I do believe that Crowley is gone (perhaps Mark the new dad was ready for new projects) and I pray to Guck that Cas is still with us. That scene killed me. Off for the re-watch looking for more details.

[SueB]

I certainly understand the "something off" but ... I don't think it was AU!Cas.  Just the way he interacted w/ Sam and Dean... that took YEARS of familiarity to earn those expressions.  Not something an AU!Cas could put up with.  BUT, listing out what I found was normal or odd ... and options for the behavior.

First, I think Cas was pretty normal before the flaming vagina (TM Tippi).  Too many diapers (Did they save the receipt?  That shit cost a LOT of money.) Doula classes. That's our Cas.
Second, touching the flaming vagina in the first place.  Well, Dean's rubbed off on me because all I could think of was "Dumbass".  I suppose he felt he HAD to know but seriously, throw a rock thru it first. Use a stick to poke at it.  IDK... Just.. well, normal Cas. He has moved quickly like that in the past so, okay.
Third, when he came back he was hella-sketchy with Kelly. So, odd Cas (but I think it's within normal Cas behavior range).  BUT, I could explain that as 'let's not disturb the dying pregnant woman with news of a rift in the time/space continuum".  When he came back it was "time", so he really couldn't free-wheel it then either.
Fourth, he seemed pretty normal Cas to me when first talking to the boys, going back into the rift and seeing Crowley.  I didn't see anything too sketchy.
Fifth, he was CLEARLY saying "goodbye" to Kelly when he kissed her forehead.  Something could have happened in that moment but there was no glowy bit.  And the funny thing is, I didn't think he was saying ONLY goodbye to Kelly.  I felt he knew he wasn't coming back.  That this was a suicide mission.  WHY?  He's been up against Lucifer before -- and it's always suicidal but why say goodbye NOW.  So... I'm going to call that odd behavior out of normal Cas. 
Sixth, I figured he acted as canon fodder to follow-up to be sure Sam and Dean sent Lucifer on the other side.  Normal Cas -- getting Lucifer over and staying PUT was JOB #1.
Seventh, jumping back through LONG after the boys had it "handled".  WHY?  This is odd.  Further, Cas said NOTHING to them.  He just CHARGED at Lucifer.  With an Angel blade.  Again, odd.  And the boys were not expecting it.  This was NOT part of the plan.  
Eighth, when he came back, he said nothing. BUT WHY COME BACK IN THE FIRST PLACE??  If Lucifer was NOT dead, then why stick him once with an ineffective Angel blade and come back.  Something is off.... But his wings were broken when killed. Not odd (broken wings) for normal Cas ... but now I'm starting to wonder...

What if that was a DIFFERENT Angel in a Cas body in SPN universe?  I mean the OBVIOUS answer is either Jack resurrects Cas or AU!Cas.  But the angel that died had broken wings.  So that's an angel IMO from SPN universe.  But the longer I focus on the action that happened from the time of the "kiss Kelly to death", the more questions I have.

Positing a new theories:
- Played 'straight' as we saw: A head canon explanation is that Cas could see the rift WASN'T closing fast enough.  That Jack needed to be born before it would completely close.  So, he leapt in when he saw Crowley's spell had taken effect but it was not going to close completely.  So, he leapt back in to hold Lucifer off. But then why come back?  Did he think he had slowed Lucifer down?  Wouldn't OUR Cas stay til the bitter end to make sure Jack was safe?
- Trying on a different SPN verse Angel in a Cas suit: Maybe during that long break, he contacted a heavenly ally to jump in and just stab Lucifer to provide a delay.  Letting the angel use his vessel and THAT angel panicked and came back.  But that requires some serious WTF'ery -- what angel would possibly align themselves with Cas at this time?  Still... that's my best shot at a dead SPN-verse angel in a Cas suit.
- Try OUR Cas but something happened while waiting: If Cas was the rear guard, he had time for all sorts of things to go on in our universe while Sam, Dean & Crowley took on Lucifer.  Did he LEARN something (beyond rift closure rate) that made him go over there?  Did he pass his katra to Mary/other (gratuitous Star Trek III movie reference) or get a power-up or get some intel from Jack ...  What was the PURPOSE of him going over and why come back is still not really answered. But did he expect Lucifer to kill him? I don't think so.  So... WTF what in his brain?  There's too many options with this one that could be filled in with any plotonium and go in multiple directions. However it COULD be relevant to his ultimate OUR Cas return.

Bottom Line for the TL, DR: I think it was an SPN-verse angel killed due to broken wings.  Wings are attached, they don't come on and off.  The boys didn't expect Cas' last minute arrival.  And if it was a stalling tactic with an ineffectual blade, why come back?  Wouldn't our Cas just trap himself on the other side, trying to hold Lucifer off while the rift finish closing, in order to keep Jack safe?  He could count on the boys to raise Jack as a decent person (he has a lot of faith in them, and Jack was already more powerful than Cas).  It definitely could have still been OUR Cas but there's SOMETHING fishy here.  I just don't know what.  

ETA: WARNING... I've studied Cas' wings in an attempt to prove this was OUR Cas.  I found the wings to be different.  I'm thinking we may have a dead AU!Cas.

Edited May 20, 2017 by SueB
New insight warning

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

That said, SOMETHING was weird because Cas stabbed right into Lucifer and nothing happened.

Wasn't Cas using his own blade and only archangel blades work on archangels? ditto on the bullets

 

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

And have Lucifer's eyes always glowed red, or is that new this season?

I think they've always glowed red, though I cant point to an episode to prove it, so maybe I'm wrong.  But, I don't think an angel can become something else.  Humans become demons by death and reprogramming, basically.  So, how would an angel become something else?  However, Jesse grew stronger when Lucifer rose, so I guess you could make a case that Lucifer would grow stronger when his Nephilim was born, or conceived, or whatever.

[rue721]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

And the funny thing is, I didn't think he was saying ONLY goodbye to Kelly.  I felt he knew he wasn't coming back.  That this was a suicide mission.  WHY?  He's been up against Lucifer before -- and it's always suicidal but why say goodbye NOW

When he pushed Lucifer through the portal in order to stab him with the angel blade, Sam and Dean seemed shocked, like that wasn't part of the plan, and it was too dangerous. I think maybe Cas decided when Kelly went into labor that he was going to kill Lucifer for good or die trying. Maybe he didn't want Lucifer near the baby EVER, I dunno.

The time when the switch-over or SOMETHING might have happened IMO is between Cas stabbing Lucifer and nothing happening, and Lucifer pushing Cas out of the fissure and stabbing him through the back.

Lucifer wanting to kill Cas in front of Sam and Dean was for affect IMO. He wanted to do that to them for the same reason and in the same way that Rowena wanted Crowley to have to watch Gavin die (or go to his death) and be powerless to stop it, and just like Crowley wanted to force Rowena to stab her beloved Oscar (Oscar, right?!). I think there's going to be a follow up to that, but IMO that story only works if Cas is actually dead. Like, if Lucifer didn't actually kill Cas in front of them...that's pretty anticlimactic.

 But at the same time, I just don't feel like Misha is off the show, because he hasn't been behaving like someone who has become recently unemployed, lol. But I dunno, he's kind of an odd duck so it's hard to tell.

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, how would an angel become something else?

I dunno...but I guess the same could have been said about humans before Lucifer started making demons?

And we still don't even know how demons are made, unfortunately. That was like the ONE piece of information I legitimately wanted Crowley to give. And speaking of Crowley, where was he going with the Close the Gates of Hell stuff? Hm. I think his endgame was always to kill himself to screw over Lucifer (and to get to see Lucifer's face while he did it), so I don't know where he was going with that particular lie.

Anyway! I honestly don't remember about the red eyes either, though.

Edited May 19, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think they've always glowed red, though I cant point to an episode to prove it, so maybe I'm wrong. 

As far as I know, the red eyes are something new this season. But the angels eyes glowing at all is pretty new. I think the first time they did it was with Gadreel so we'd know when it was Gadreel and when it was Sam. 

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

As far as I know, the red eyes are something new this season. But the angels eyes glowing at all is pretty new. I think the first time they did it was with Gadreel so we'd know when it was Gadreel and when it was Sam. 

I think the first time Lucifers eyes glowed red was when Sam, Rowena, and Crowley pulled him into the cage for Sam to talk to him last year before Cas said yes. Don't remember the name.

[Periadoc]

Can anyone explain what Jack and the Alternative Universe have in common? This is the one plot point that makes no sense to me. Yes, his birthing process seemed to tear it open, but not much else? Is he supposed to bring that AU to their universe? How do these things connect? 

[Icarus]

Well I said elsewhere I would be extremely upset if Rowena died and she did and what a load of crap her death was. I have not seen any tweets from her after the one asking who was watching the final – I think it absolutely stinks that she was killed off like that – what an absolute insult to the actress. I am very disappointed that Jensen and Jared obviously signed off on this. I know that they hated the death of Charlie (I had begun to dislike her as she was such a Mary Sue in the end) so I had no problem personally with her death so why after that have they still been promoting the finale. I'm afraid the two episodes have sort of morphed into the one so not sure of the timing of what and where. I really thought the Dean speech about how Sam was ready was – excuse me but what the fck – it reminded me of the warehouse scene where Bobby was saying how wonderful Sam was and again it was – where on earth is this coming from and what and why is this being said. I don't believe that Jared is demanding that he be given all this adoration for his character but sometimes it is hard not to think surely they – the mysterious they – can see how over the top the writing is – and then Dean compounds this nonsense with all his talk about Sam with Mary – and on and on. I actually do like Sam, especially now, I don't mind that he gets kills more than Dean at the moment but I cannot stand all the hyperbole about Sam and I can't see why we are being hit in the face with it, it is not relevant to anything? I am going to miss Mark Shepherd but I would not be at all surprised if he asked out, he is a quality actor and will not be out of work, and I believe Cas will be back but back to Rowena – nasty nasty Dabb, I hope you get sacked and don't get any more work!

[rue721]

5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I think the first time Lucifers eyes glowed red was when Sam, Rowena, and Crowley pulled him into the cage for Sam to talk to him last year before Cas said yes. Don't remember the name.

For what it's worth, that's what I remembered, too.

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, Periadoc said:

Can anyone explain what Jack and the Alternative Universe have in common? This is the one plot point that makes no sense to me. Yes, his birthing process seemed to tear it open, but not much else? Is he supposed to bring that AU to their universe? How do these things connect? 

What the show implied was Jack's birth was so cosmic, it was creating random tears in space time. TFW thought it was a threat (open portal to someplace) so they scoped it out, found it bad news but realized they could leverage it to keep Lucifer away.

What I think:
- There was just ONE hole -- and the 'nephilim snot' sort of came off of Kelly's hand onto the truck an then into mid air -- why didn't she leak elsewhere?
- Was the nephilim creating his own escape hatch?  Did HE plan on using it when he was born?  That at least would have kept him away from Lucifer -- UNTIL TFW shoved Lucifer in there.  Which, gets the job done but high body count.  And whats to say the nephilim could have made it to the fissure in the first place before Lucifer whisked him away.  I mean, immediately upon being born, would Lucifer or the nephilim have more power?

So... they may stick with the 'random tear' and just use the AU for more storytime fun, OR they may declare it was an intentional rift by the nephilim.  Too early to know for sure IMO. 

[Binns]

12 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I think the first time Lucifers eyes glowed red was when Sam, Rowena, and Crowley pulled him into the cage for Sam to talk to him last year before Cas said yes. Don't remember the name.

Ooh, yes, because I remember how eerie it was along with the flames. You saw those eyes first. 

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, Icarus said:

Well I said elsewhere I would be extremely upset if Rowena died and she did and what a load of crap her death was. I have not seen any tweets from her after the one asking who was watching the final – I think it absolutely stinks that she was killed off like that – what an absolute insult to the actress. I am very disappointed that Jensen and Jared obviously signed off on this. I know that they hated the death of Charlie (I had begun to dislike her as she was such a Mary Sue in the end) so I had no problem personally with her death so why after that have they still been promoting the finale. I'm afraid the two episodes have sort of morphed into the one so not sure of the timing of what and where. I really thought the Dean speech about how Sam was ready was – excuse me but what the fck – it reminded me of the warehouse scene where Bobby was saying how wonderful Sam was and again it was – where on earth is this coming from and what and why is this being said. I don't believe that Jared is demanding that he be given all this adoration for his character but sometimes it is hard not to think surely they – the mysterious they – can see how over the top the writing is – and then Dean compounds this nonsense with all his talk about Sam with Mary – and on and on. I actually do like Sam, especially now, I don't mind that he gets kills more than Dean at the moment but I cannot stand all the hyperbole about Sam and I can't see why we are being hit in the face with it, it is not relevant to anything? I am going to miss Mark Shepherd but I would not be at all surprised if he asked out, he is a quality actor and will not be out of work, and I believe Cas will be back but back to Rowena – nasty nasty Dabb, I hope you get sacked and don't get any more work!

From a meta perspective, Shepard making his choice and J2 being okay makes sense to me.  The guy has a TON of credits, can get work easily, and may have also felt the story played out. Plus he got to be a BDH with his self-sacrifice.  A "good" end for Crowley (except for the sheer number of other deaths). 

Ruth DID make a tweet, somewhat a joke about it right at the moment it happened:

But, if she was really upset... I think she'd be silent.  I just feel like she either thinks she's coming back or has known for so long and moved on that she's okay with it.  I'm hoping it's the former, not the later.

And there's no way, IMO, that Misha is off the show.  OUR Cas may (or maynot) be dead, but Misha will be back IMO. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by SueB