S04.E22: World's End

[Lugal]

15 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

But if AIDA did create an LMD Simmons how was she not able to notice it?

AIDA was human now and didn't have Daisy's Quake powers to detect LMDs and either hadn't learned to use her other inhuman powers to detect them or hadn't thought there would be any LMDs there.

[TVSpectator]

5 hours ago, Lugal said:

AIDA was human now and didn't have Daisy's Quake powers to detect LMDs and either hadn't learned to use her other inhuman powers to detect them or hadn't thought there would be any LMDs there.

So basically, Coulson and his team found Radcliffe's magical LMD machine, scanned Simmons because they knew that AIDA/Ophelia was in a jealous fit of murderous rage at her, then had LMD Simmons walked up to AIDA/Ophelia with Ghost Rider Coulson behind her, and then used the LMD as a deco and AIDA didn't know how to use all of her powers that she had memories of studying for ten or so years, killed LMD Simmons (but not before LMD Simmons stated that this was all Fitz's fault), and then Ghost Rider Coulson killed AIDA/Ophelia. IMO, that sounded like a complex plan that probably would've never have worked in the real world and Robbie should've just burned her soul when he had the chance too.  

Edited May 19, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Lugal]

I think it was more a matter of Radcliffe et al had a Simmons LMD ready to go when the others were replaced, like they had the Field of Daisies before they could map Daisy or Simmons' brains.  The Team just found it and kept it close to Fitz knowing they would be AIDA's primary targets.  Or AIDA may well have known Simmons was an LMD and killed her anyway for funzies, like she enjoyed killing the Russian over and over.  The real Simmons showed up with Coulson to shoot Ophelia, for her own enjoyment and a distraction for Ghost Rider Coulson to kill her.  They knew the only way for Ghost Rider to get close to her is if it was someone other than Robbie, since if she saw Robbie, she would have teleported out.

In the end, I agree, Robbie should have burned her out when he had the chance.

[jhlipton]

On 5/14/2017 at 3:30 PM, TVSpectator said:

Whare ARE THE AVENGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????

In movie-land, where they belong.  If I wanted to have anything to do witrh the Avengers, I'd watch their movies.

On 5/14/2017 at 3:59 PM, SnoGirl said:

I just dont understand why they dont talk about those connections more or have people appear on each others shows, isnt the money coming out of the same pot?

I don't believe so.  I think Movie-FOX and TV-FOX two separate but connected entities (kind of like Disney & ABC).

On 5/17/2017 at 0:45 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

But one big gripe was that Robbie goes for the DaisyBot instead of Aida? What the hell dude! You have the element of suprise AND you know Aida can teleport and instead of frying her ass right there you go for a minion? Then he pitches (actually a pretty funny) rage fit because she got away? Initially I was like why, why, why? But of course in that scenario the show would have ended at the 20 minute mark, so shenanigans.

Ophelia: "I'm going to enjoy watching you kill yourself!"
Robbie: "Eh, not so much!"

LOL

On 5/18/2017 at 5:19 PM, RobertDeSneero said:

That speech would have been horribly out-of-character coming from May.  She's not the one to give an emotional, inspirational speech.  She's the one who you give a single sentence stuffed with profoundness.  She is going to be as talkative about her experience in the Framework as she has been about her experience in Bahrain.

You're not saying she's robotic, are you?  LOL

[Nalan]

Totally random thought, but considering that Yo-Yo was seemingly abducted with Coulson, May, Daisy, Fitz, Simmons, and Mack, could Natalia be added to the main cast next season since they all might be in the same place?  Or will she just stay on recurring?

[Raja]

On 5/17/2017 at 9:45 AM, CaptainTightpants said:

 

One last gripe! When Talbot was shot, the other military person (who I'm assuming was his second in command/assistant) is the only one left standing it the room with Coulson and May. Could she not have been a little more in command and rational? She comes across as emotional and also kind of verging on hysteria. Way to represent women in the military! Not to say that she didn't give the right orders, she was totally in the right to have them detained, but she comes off as rabid instead of rational. And I'm having a hard time believing that Talbot would have someone at his side who couldn't hold her shit together. She must know about LMDs if she is part of his command and she just saw the two Russian guys jog away after being shot multiple times in centre of body mass. 

 

A First Lieutenant attached to the hip of a Brigadier General makes her his Aide-de-camp, his personal assistant not an assistant commander.  Those chosen were the top 1 percent on their first duty assignment and are now being groomed for general's stars 25 years down the line if they stay in service. In our MCU world she comes off just like her sponsor General Talbot himself.

Presumably the Daisy LMD went through the entire security detail for the international spy conference and she was alone before the first two reinforcing MP's finally arrived after the paramedics had already stabilized the General for transportation.  In  what I think was a General Talbot LMD for transportation prepared after the warning call from Agent Coulson

[Loandbehold]

3 hours ago, Nalan said:

Totally random thought, but considering that Yo-Yo was seemingly abducted with Coulson, May, Daisy, Fitz, Simmons, and Mack, could Natalia be added to the main cast next season since they all might be in the same place?  Or will she just stay on recurring?

I have no inside knowledge, but AoS's budget is being reduced next season. They may not want or be able to expand the cast.

[TVSpectator]

11 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

I have no inside knowledge, but AoS's budget is being reduced next season. They may not want or be able to expand the cast.

Or even try to go to space since they would have to build sets, CGI, etc... Even if the movie side gives them a hand they are still going to have to CGI things under a very tight budget. I would expect more bubble episodes and possibly a reduced cast as well. 

14 hours ago, Nalan said:

Totally random thought, but considering that Yo-Yo was seemingly abducted with Coulson, May, Daisy, Fitz, Simmons, and Mack, could Natalia be added to the main cast next season since they all might be in the same place?  Or will she just stay on recurring?

So they took everyone? I though that they only took Coulson because where are the rest of them and other than Infinity War why not stay on Earth so they can tie-in to movies like Black Panther?

[Nalan]

15 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

So they took everyone? I though that they only took Coulson because where are the rest of them and other than Infinity War why not stay on Earth so they can tie-in to movies like Black Panther?

The guy said, "Take them" after Coulson, May, Daisy, Fitz, Simmons, Mack, and Yo-Yo were all frozen.  Not "Take him."  So I'm pretty sure they came there for the whole group.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Nalan

[TVSpectator]

2 minutes ago, Nalan said:

The guy said, "Take them" after Coulson, May, Daisy, Fitz, Simmons, Mack, and Yo-Yo were all frozen.  Not "Take him."  So I'm pretty sure they came there for the whole group.

Oh, for some reason I thought that they only took Coulson.

[Raja]

38 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Oh, for some reason I thought that they only took Coulson.

Probably because in the episode stinger we only saw Agent Coulson, with the tease that it was a prison cell to see it was his living quarters on a spaceship or station.

[AKA...CJ86]

YoYo the finale MVP... my opinion.

I love Mac, but I almost wished he committed to staying in the Framework... it's the perfect, tragic ending for the character.

Totally shipping Robbie/Daisy... Quake Rider...

Was totally waiting for Talbot to be an LMD, didn't think the show would do shoot the real Talbot... who knows, maybe that can be a twist next season.

[Taryn74]

Finished binge watching S4 today.  Previously hubby and I had tried to keep up with the show on a week-to-week basis but we just didn't have time this season, and the show was enjoyable enough but not on our "must watch" list, so even though our daughter told us S4 was phenomenal and begged us to start watching, we never did.

Well, holy smokes was she ever right!  I didn't even bother waiting for hubby to be able to watch it with me, because who knows how long we would have had to drag it out and I'm impatient, so there at the end I was going through 5 - 6 episodes a day.  Just couldn't put it down, so to speak.

I know this is a specific episode thread rather than a general S4 thread (do we have one of those??) so I'll try to keep my thoughts to just the last arc at least.

My mind was pretty much blown by the playout of the AIDA/Darkhold storyline.  I loved seeing Robbie/Ghost Rider again at the end and I LOVED seeing Tripp and even Ward again!  I felt the previous incarnation of Ward was dear-heaven-let-him-just-DIE-already done, so it surprised me that I was kind of digging his reappearance here.  I'm glad they let him be just a solid good guy this time, no double-crossing or triple-crossing going on, but without the blandness of the S1 meat shield.

I started out hating Mace so it was nice to come to really enjoy him as a character, and he got a good send-off (even if technically he died in a "not real" world.  I'm with Mack though, who's to say that world wasn't real in some sense, if it was real to the ones living in it?).  I'm still torn on if Mace was actually Inhuman in the Hydra world or if he just had a modified suit "juicing" him all the time.  In the end it doesn't matter, I guess.

I know people have argued that the elder Fitz wasn't "bad" enough to have raised Hydra!Fitz, but I think there's more to him than we know yet.  I haven't gone back to pause and read it yet, but when Hope asked if that was the same Dr. Fitz as in her history book, it was definitely not Fitz the Younger in that picture, it was his father.  I think we have more to find out about Daddy Fitz and just what kind of a (terrible) man he is, in the real world.  (Edit - Actually, my mistake.  I did go back just now to check out the history book Hope was reading, and the picture and story on that page was of Dr. Whitehall.  Dr. Leopold Fitz is mentioned on the next page, but we can't read all of it.  I still think there's more to be learned about Daddy Fitz, but he's not the doctor that Hope was referring to.)

Having recently read 1984 for the first time, I was utterly fascinated by the Hydra World.  It was like watching those levels of brainwashing come to life, where wrong is right and lies are truth as long as you can get enough people to repeat them.  Scary.  Seriously, bone-chilling levels of scary.

I knew the minute Hydra World Mack found out his daughter was dead in the real world, he would choose to stay there with her when the others went back, and honestly I can't blame him.  In fact I thought it was pretty crappy of Elena to cross over and try to force him to leave Hope behind.  He made the right decision once Hope disappeared, but expecting him to just abandon her was wrong.

Ophelia getting off while bashing the Russian LMD's head in was seriously disturbing.  MJ acted the hell out of her (many) roles, though.  That was incredibly done.

Fitz shattered my heart.  Over and over and frigging over again.  He's such an awesome foil to May.  Both of them have done terrible, terrible things, but one locks her emotions away while the other carries everything on his sleeve.  Oh, my heart.  It breaks.

Robbie is the first guy I've seen have genuine chemistry with Daisy, and I really liked him.  Gabe too.  I hope we'll be seeing more of them in S5.

Well done, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.  Well done.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Taryn74

[blueray]

I just binged watched the last 7 episodes or so (basically the whole framework storyline). Very good, glad I finally got around to watching it.

I was sad that they couldn't save Hope, I was hoping that they could pull her out the way Adia did, though I suppose she still had a body on the outside and the machine was underwater. Sad scene with Mack saying goodbye. I did like the ending with Holden drinking as the world ended.

The last few scenes in this episode were a bit confusing. How did they make a Jemma android so fast and how did Coulson get the rider? Though I suppose the second one will be answered next season with what Coulson was dealing with.  Unless it was just revenge against her for what she did to his team. I loved seeing Robbie again. Still think he should get a spin off.

I am glad that Adia is finally destroyed, even though it was kind of anticlimactic. Any a great season. And space, definetly a cliffhanger. 2018 seems so far away.

Edited July 3, 2017 by blueray

[Star Aristille]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 8:22 PM, blueray said:

How did they make a Jemma android so fast

It can be assumed that the LMDs of the other agents had her in place already for when they swapped her and Daisy, even though neither ended up happening.

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 5:10 AM, Nalan said:

Totally random thought, but considering that Yo-Yo was seemingly abducted with Coulson, May, Daisy, Fitz, Simmons, and Mack, could Natalia be added to the main cast next season since they all might be in the same place?  Or will she just stay on recurring?

Well, with Radcliffe gone, it's definitely possible that Natalia, if offered a spot in the main cast, could just take John Hannah's spot and thus the salary he was probably getting a regular.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Star Aristille

[Kel Varnsen]

On 17/05/2017 at 0:57 AM, blackwing said:

I don't expect the Avengers to show up, I know the actors are expensive.  But it'd be nice to at least have Coulson mention considering calling them.  If Aida was really going to end the world, as the episode description stated, you'd think the Avengers would be interested in helping.

It has to be more than just about money i think. Knowing how much Marvel puts the screws to actors when doing contracts (other than RDJ) i think they could probably get movie people on the show if they wanted to. Think of it this way, it is pretty standard for a big time movie contract to require the star to do promotion. So as part of his salary for Civil War, Chris Evans was probably required to spend a bunch of time doing press junkets, going to premieres and doing talk shows. How would forcing him to spend a couple of days on set of Agents of SHIELD as a way to promote the movie be any different? Unless of couse Marvel doesn't want their big stars showing up on their small time tv shows since they worry it will cheapen their brand.

[Lugal]

I think the other part of the reason why the Avengers don't show up is probably the separation of the Marvel Movies and Marvel TV shows.

[chitowngirl]

Do The Avengers even know that Coulson is alive?

[Raja]

28 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Do The Avengers even know that Coulson is alive?

According to the movie side, no the Avengers don't know that Phil Coulson came back from the dead even if all surviving level 7 SHIELD agents had the clearance  to know, or there was just not the time needed on a movie for it to be mentioned. On  the TV side Lady Siff agreed to let the son of Coul tell Thor. Nick Fury Maria Hill and many of the ex SHIELD agents working on the restored helicarrier and supporting the Avengers know. Many high level government officials due to his work with the ATCU and the reestablishment of SHIELD as an American agency before the LMDs destroyed their US headquarters know. It would seem that the only way the Avengers could not know was because there was no reason for the Coulson to just come up in conversation.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I am a few years later to the party and I suspect few will read this post anyway but I do need a place to post my opinion about the whole Agents of Hydra arc, so here goes. And by opinion, I mean rant. I see that most people here seem to have loved it, I am happy for them, but for me it was such a waste of so many wonderful acting performances. I have been binging the show and it has never been anywhere near great but I did like the Ghost Rider arc a lot and had heard that the show improved quite a bit after the rough first season or two. And hey, Jemma saving the day should have been right up my alley because I love Jemma. But the execution was so underwhelming.

First of all, I just can't buy the idea that "removing their biggest regret" would make decent people like May and Fitz want to become very important figures in a cartoonishly evil organisation like Hydra. No, a thousand times no. And with May the writers tried to have it both ways - first the shock value of Evil May and then the lame excuse of "How could I have known that Hydra was evil, it's not like they were torturing and killing people left, right and centre... oh, wait". IMO, this arc could have been so much better if Fitz and May were merely ethically compromised, not full on villains. But that wouldn't have been as shocking and Jed Whedon might not be Joss but he seems to have the same fondness for "shocking" twists, consistent characterisation or worldbuilding be damned.

And when Daisy stated quite seriously that Fitz went all Dr. Mengele because he never had the chance to meet Simmons, I wanted to slap the writers for writing this kind of hackneyed crap. So tired of daddy issues making people evil too. Fitz even spelt it out by comparing himself with Ward in case people didn't notice the blatantly obvious.

And then there was AIDA. Let me count the ways I hated her arc. She did all this because she wanted to become human and because she loved Fitz that much? Gee, could you have come up with a less original story? Why does every freaking AI on TV or on the big screen wants to either exterminate the human race, date a human and/or become a human? Also, the plot was, as usual for the show, full of gaping holes. AIDA couldn't find Jemma and Daisy (or anybody else) in the Matrix, I mean the Framework just by looking over the code? She couldn't shut down outside signals to the Framework? They not only ripped off the Matrix but its plot holes too. Down to having someone attack the plane carrying Jemma and Daisy and the plane not being able to use its weapons while they were in the Framework.

And then of course, they just had to lock AIDA in the containment module. With Fitz!!! Sorry for the three exclamation marks but that was truly idiotic. Robbie conveniently shows up just in time to destroy AIDA. Nobody blames Fitz much and we are supposed to feel bad for him and hate Talbot for wanting to shut down SHIELD - never mind that the show hit us over the head with the idea that Fitz could be truly bad under the right circumstances and he was very much to blame for AIDA getting a chance to make such a mess in the first place. But nah, "We are a team, don't feel bad, only redshirts died. Mace? Who is that?". Why does May not feel bad for what she did in the Framework? She drank the Kool-Aid just as much as Fitz did.

What was with the washed out colours in all the scenes in the Framework? What, they thought the viewers would be too stupid to realise it was a dystopia/artificial reality if it had bright colours?

Last but not least, there was the romance. Ah, the romance. So incredibly, unbelievably terrible. I mean, most romance on TV ranges from mediocre to bad but this show is trying really hard to outdo all other. I love Simmons and I like Fitz a lot. I would have preferred them to stay friends but I can easily get behind a well written romance. What we get is over the top angst and melodrama with almost no happy moments. Before Joss went all grimdark in the final seasons of Buffy, he seemed to understand that angst and tragedy work so much better when you have actually shown the couple in question, you know, happy together for a while. We haven't gotten this with any of the couples in this show. Yo-yo expecting Mack to suddenly remember his real life upon seeing her made me facepalm. Again, I like both characters a lot but their romantic relationship is way too melodramatic. And then Hope disappeared and the tough choice for Mack was made for him. How dramatic this was not. Coulson and May's romance is about as organic as that sand that Fitz "carbon dated" back in season 3. Also, I had to laugh when Madam Hydra offered Daisy to fulfill her dream of living with Lincoln, as if that was some grand love story. I am getting the feeling the writers are not interested in any aspect of the romantic relationships other than a source of angst and might well have been forced into writing these relationships by the network executives.

At least they didn't bring up Ward to the real world, I guess I should be happy with that. The show is strangely addicting despite many aspects of it being annoying. I just think it has potential that it rarely fulfills. I keep watching because I like most of the characters but there have been so many wasted opportunities and so many safe choices. Someone has to die at the end of season 3 - make it Lincoln, the one guy that won't be missed much. Someone has to die in season 4 - make it Mace, the new guy. Every time Coulson gets deserved criticism for his work as a director, something happens and he needs to save the day or the person criticizing him turns to be even worse than him. And so on.

[swanpride]

In fitz's case it didn't just remove his greatest regret, it changed his entire childhood. Naturally the end-result was different.

[Jack Shaftoe]

12 hours ago, swanpride said:

In fitz's case it didn't just remove his greatest regret, it changed his entire childhood. Naturally the end-result was different.

IIRC, in the real world Fitz's father left when Fitz was 10 years old, so not exactly his entire childhood. Plus, the show has been pretty consistent about not whitewashing Ward because of his parents and made certain we saw that one of his brothers turned out be a non-psychopath which makes Fitz's turn to the dark side all the more contrived and annoying.

At least his excuse was better than May's "I didn't know Hydra was evil!", I will give him that. 🙂

[Guest]

On 3/19/2020 at 9:06 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

First of all, I just can't buy the idea that "removing their biggest regret" would make decent people like May and Fitz want to become very important figures in a cartoonishly evil organisation like Hydra.

I thought this was supposed to be a result of AIDA’s manipulation combined with removing their biggest regret. May and Fitz and the others didn’t live those changes they just woke up one day with only those memories. They didn’t choose to become important figures in Hydra. They were placed into that world years after those choices were already made. They were simply following the path they were placed on. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

29 minutes ago, Dani said:

I thought this was supposed to be a result of AIDA’s manipulation combined with removing their biggest regret.

I thought so at first but if AIDA could manipulate the Framework to that extent why even bother with Hydra? Why not give "Madam Hydra" all kinds of cool Inhuman powers in the first place and have all the brightest minds in the Framework work on how to make her a real woman, instead of just Fitz? Sure, they weren't real people but does that make them bad scientists? Everything else looked pretty damned real.

Then again, AIDA did insert himself in a very important position despite claiming to follow Radcliffe's directives... I think the writers kind of wanted to have it both ways, to be honest.

Also in early season 5 (not sure if spoiler tags for later episodes are necessary but here is one just in case)

Spoiler

Fitz says that maybe the universe was trying to protect Jemma from him: "From what I was in the Framework. Because that came from inside of me. That wasn't programming".

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I thought so at first but if AIDA could manipulate the Framework to that extent why even bother with Hydra? Why not give "Madam Hydra" all kinds of cool Inhuman powers in the first place and have all the brightest minds in the Framework work on how to make her a real woman, instead of just Fitz? Sure, they weren't real people but does that make them bad scientists? Everything else looked pretty damned real.

AIDA was still limited by her programming even if she could manipulate things to some extent. You make one change and there are multiple possible outcomes. She could have chosen a specific path that was both a logical result and suited her in goal. 

Fitz led the project because she was fixated on him but there were others involved. Fitz wasn’t even there when she took the final steps. 

39 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also in early season 5 (not sure if spoiler tags for later episodes are necessary but here is one just in case)

  Hide contents

Fitz says that maybe the universe was trying to protect Jemma from him: "From what I was in the Framework. Because that came from inside of me. That wasn't programming".

That’s why I said it was only part AIDA’s manipulation in influencing how that regret played out.