S03.E22: Infantino Street

[ElleMo]

On 5/17/2017 at 0:33 PM, Katsullivan said:

The point is that it was brought up again because it was about to become relevant. 

Most likely HR was working with Savitar. He had a piece of Savitar with him and he knew, from Jessie Quick, how to use it to summon Savitar. He made a deal to die in place of Iris and Savitar accepted it, because the only thing better than killing Iris and wrecking Barry would be letting Barry get wrecked, thinking that Iris was killed and keeping her for himself.

What Iris thought about all this wouldn't have been any of Savitar's concern. 

That is the best theory that I have heard so far.  Explains why she doesn't day "I love you" to Barry before she dies. 

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, ElleMo said:

That is the best theory that I have heard so far.  Explains why she doesn't day "I love you" to Barry before she dies. 

I agree.  That way Barritar gets to have his Iris and kill her, too.  Beating the "villain" AKA original Barry and getting the girl is how it should work out for a hero/god.  It doesn't really really explain where (when?) Iris was during Barry's 8 years of sad/mope, but fuck it, Savitar could have run her to year 1 Billion AD if he wanted to by that time and left her to dodge Morlocks for awhile.

Okay, so here's the Savi-loop plan as I see it.

Savitar breaks out of Speed Force jail and runs to the past.

He sets up events that cause his creation.

Once the loop that makes him is established he lives happily ever after doing whatever it is that scarred speedster-gods with metal-phallic obsessions do.

[immortalfrieza]

10 hours ago, waving feather said:

Another thing that bugged me was how Barry just stood around while trying to shoot Savitar with the speed cannon. He is a speedster, himself. Use your speed, geez.

My question is if he had the means to completely negate the Speed Cannon why Savitar bothered trying to avoid it and didn't instead just stand there and take it, and how he still ends up trapped in the Speed Force four years from now as per the requirements of the loop if he has the means to prevent it.

I thought of the whole "use the face changer to switch Iris with someone else" way back around the time Barry went into the future and saw Iris die, and figured H.R. would be the one to switch with her because they have to get rid of Tom Cavanagh's character and replace it with another Wells every single season for some reason. If they do replace H.R. with another one they should just take the smarts of Harry and the silly quirkiness of H.R., mix them together, and simmer, because I don't want another moody but useful Wells or another funny but practically useless Wells either.

The only things I want out of the Killer Frost storyline is A. Catlin goes back to being good and B. she keeps her superpowers and can use them to aid Team Flash next season, otherwise they should just kill her off and replace her with Tracy (especially since that's precisely what I think Tracy exists for) because Catlin's whole storyline this season is pointless if she doesn't get superpowers out of the deal or stays evil.

Edited May 19, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[johntfs]

5 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

The only things I want out of the Killer Frost storyline is A. Catlin goes back to being good and B. she keeps her superpowers and can use them to aid Team Flash next season, otherwise they should just kill her off and replace her with Tracy (especially since that's precisely what I think Tracy exists for) because Catlin's whole storyline this season is pointless if she doesn't get superpowers out of the deal or stays evil.

It's idiotic, but since they've established Killer Frost as an apparent separate personality that manifests when Caitlin uses her cold powers, they should stick with that.  However, what they could do is mellow Killer Frost out a little and take from "Evil Twin" to "Bad Roommate."  Caitlin wakes up at her place to find her living area is a mess, there's meltwater puddles in the kitchen and there's a strange guy in her shower dealing with frostbite on his junk.  Like that.

[ruby24]

13 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

The only things I want out of the Killer Frost storyline is A. Catlin goes back to being good and B. she keeps her superpowers and can use them to aid Team Flash next season, otherwise they should just kill her off and replace her with Tracy (especially since that's precisely what I think Tracy exists for) because Catlin's whole storyline this season is pointless if she doesn't get superpowers out of the deal or stays evil.

I agree with this, and I'd actually like to see it happen. I like Tracy, and I think if HR's gone, she'll probably get together with Harry. Either way, I think she has good chemistry with Tom Cavanagh and I'd like to see that more than any storyline they could do for Caitlin anymore.

I think they should leave her evil.

[Trini]

52 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

The only things I want out of the Killer Frost storyline is A. Catlin goes back to being good and B. she keeps her superpowers and can use them to aid Team Flash next season,

This is exactly what they're going to do (not a spoiler) because they want to 'have their cake and eat it too'.

Quote

... because Catlin's whole storyline this season is pointless if she doesn't get superpowers out of the deal or stays evil.

I don't think it's pointless if she stays evil (still makes NO sense, though), because then we get a new recurring villain to fight. But they're not going to do that, they want to have it both ways. Caitlin's only part-time evil. (Did I mention I hate this storyline? HATE IT.)

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

It's idiotic, but since they've established Killer Frost as an apparent separate personality that manifests when Caitlin uses her cold powers, they should stick with that.  However, what they could do is mellow Killer Frost out a little and take from "Evil Twin" to "Bad Roommate."  Caitlin wakes up at her place to find her living area is a mess, there's meltwater puddles in the kitchen and there's a strange guy in her shower dealing with frostbite on his junk.  Like that.

Meh.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, phoenics said:

Meh.

Yeah, but if they're going to do this silly-ass thing, they should at least have some fun with it.  Let Danielle mirror talk with her other self.  Have Killer Frost want to hang out and be friends with Iris (who was the only one of Team Flash not constantly banging on about curing Caitlin(and thus killing KF)).

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

Yeah, but if they're going to do this silly-ass thing, they should at least have some fun with it.  Let Danielle mirror talk with her other self.  Have Killer Frost want to hang out and be friends with Iris (who was the only one of Team Flash not constantly banging on about curing Caitlin(and thus killing KF)).

Iris was the first one to call out that she wasn't the only one to be saved though...

Honestly - if I had to choose - I'd rather see more PoV and story for Iris than KF/Cait.  Sorry not sorry.  Cait/KF hasn't had struggles getting her PoV onscreen.  Iris has. If anyone deserves more centering, it's Iris, not Caitlin/KF.  She gets centered at the expense of Iris and so I'm going to rail against that as long as I have breath in my body.

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

Iris was the first one to call out that she wasn't the only one to be saved though...

Honestly - if I had to choose - I'd rather see more PoV and story for Iris than KF/Cait.  Sorry not sorry.  Cait/KF hasn't had struggles getting her PoV onscreen.  Iris has. If anyone deserves more centering, it's Iris, not Caitlin/KF.  She gets centered at the expense of Iris and so I'm going to rail against that as long as I have breath in my body.

I'd choose for Iris to get more PoV too, but we're clearly not going to get that given the way she had so little agency in a story about preventing her own fucking murder.  My hope with the Killer Frost friendship thing was that Iris would get some independent story stuff aside from just being The Object of Barry's Affection/Protection.  I admit my model for that concept is the Mazikeen/Chloe friendship on Lucifer.

[dingochick]

Loved Snart's explanation of the four-part plan. "Make the plan. Execute the plan. Expect the plan to go off the rails. Throw away the plan." Lol. I thought it was a nice nod to Prison Break. More Snart, please!

[mac123x]

On 5/17/2017 at 11:29 PM, RobertDeSneero said:

So...was Julian off watching Britain's Got Talent throughout the whole episode or something?

They were already stretching the guest star budget, what with having Snart, Lyla, and the actors who play Savitar and Harry... wait...

[Maverick]

 Oy, the stupid in this episode.   It burns.  

 Barry not only knows exactly where the Legends are but also just happens to be able to approach Captain Cold alone.

 Why doesn't Barry ask for help from all the Legends?  You can handwave them away when they're running around in history, but when Barry is standing right in front of the Waverider it's hard to fathom not asking them for assistance.

 Captain Cold can crack a highly advanced electronic lock in under 60 seconds.  Right.  I know he's a thief and all but without those kinda skillz who needs a plan.

 Cisco isn't able to hack the lock that Captain Cold can.  Until he can 2 minutes later to close the door.  Good thing that highly secure facility isn't airgapped.

 How secure is ARGUS is if can be scanned by the Star Labs satellite.  

 There's technology that suppresses mutahuman powers?  M'kay.  

 If there's a way to suppress metahuman powers, maybe instead of bargaining for/stealing the power source you should ask for the plans for that tech.  Then maybe you could, I don't know.  Maybe INSTALL IT STAR LABS.   Then Savitar can't reach Iris.  Oh, and of course you could also have one of the speedsters whisk Killer Frost there so she''d revert to Caitlin.   

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

 There's technology that suppresses mutahuman powers?  M'kay.  

 If there's a way to suppress metahuman powers, maybe instead of bargaining for/stealing the power source you should ask for the plans for that tech.  Then maybe you could, I don't know.  Maybe INSTALL IT STAR LABS.   Then Savitar can't reach Iris.  Oh, and of course you could also have one of the speedsters whisk Killer Frost there so she''d revert to Caitlin.

For me the bigger WTF about that tech was "Isn't being a giant, humanoid shark as a meta-human ability?"  So, either metahuman powers weren't suppressed in King Shark's room (in which case Barry should've been able to run in, swipe the thingie and run back out before KS could finish a blink) or King Shark should have morph back into a regular human (or regular shark).  Or just been dead from the lack of whatever metahuman thing allowed him to live as a bigass humanoid shark.

They've had the technology on a personal/individual scale since the first season.  They put it in the cells so that the cells/walls blocked it (though the person inside could still use their powers in the confines of the cell).  Later, Cisco created cuffs and the little jewel thing Caitlin wore.  Figure they already had effective plans for tech to "desuperpower" a building, but figure that would also cost a shit-load of money that Star Labs doesn't have.  Also, the suppression thing didn't seem to be something that could be turned on and off (in case Barry, Cisco or Wally wanted/needed to be able to use their powers).  Otherwise Barry and Snart would have hacked into the control area and turned the "metahuman blocker" off for the duration of their visit.

Given the way Iris was reduced to a helpless victim in this episode, I keep reading the title as "Infantilize Street."

Edited May 21, 2017 by johntfs

[Trini]

Nice opening — even though it was sad. ?

Oh hey, bedroom set! I’m pretty sure they just reconfigured a wall of the normal loft set, but still! Liked the little Barry/Iris scene. So I say that’s the same pouty face that Iris used to get Teen!Barry to switch rooms.

Nitpick: I know they wanted nice lighting, but it was way too bright for midnight in that scene.

Would have liked to see more of Iris, and more Iris/Barry seeing as how this was her death episode. Especially since the ARGUS heist turned out to be a waste of time. Not that I minded seeing Snart again. But a McGuffin in the penultimate episode is more evidence of the pacing issues in this back half.

Seems like they cut a goodbye kiss right before Barry went off on his mission. :(

Awwww… a Joe/Iris scene! In which they got J.L. Martin to sing again! I don’t know whether to be happy or upset that they gave us their father/daughter dance now.

Not my idea - saw discussion elsewhere that the engagement ring being missing when Iris dies (or “dies”) is an actual causal loop. Like, the ring was never going to be there, either Barry never proposed or she was always going to take the ring off. (... I probably didn’t explain that correctly.)

Not much to say about the heist plot that amounted to nothing; but I did like the Arrow-verse references. Cheetah! I’d rather that easter egg be on Supergirl, though. And now King Shark hates the Flash even more. It’s a shame they killed off Snart. He really is a good counter to Barry/Flash. Wentworth needs to show up more often.

[…WAIT — Barry wasn’t wearing his Flash costume at ARGUS. How did he know he’s the Flash?? CRAP. Now another update to The List, and I gotta figure out when exactly King Shark learned this info.]

So did SaviBar have an extra Flash suit, or what?

I wish Iris had a goodbye scene with Cisco. And Wally. Poor wally!

Something is definitely up with HR, but him making a deal with Savitar still seems a reach. Seems like the best spec so far, though.

Uh, no, Barry (and Cisco). Killer Frost can wait for now. (Also, I hope Barry warned Cisco to protect his hands!) I mean, how exactly was he going to “save” her? Talking and fighting haven’t worked so far. I say vibe her to Earth-43 and get back to Infantino Street, pronto.

So I guess SaviBar just needed Killer Frost as a distraction? Is that it?

When Savitar said the Flash gave him the Philosopher’s Stone, does that mean he just made it then using the Speed Bazooka, or that he (Savitar) got it from the Speed Force when it got thrown in? (Ugh. I don’t expect this to be addressed.  :-/ )

Why didn’t Joe shoot? Really hoping the team had another plan Barry didn’t know about.

Gah! I knew whatever recording Iris did was going to come back into play; but they just about killed me playing it over her death scene. (Or “death” scene. Still in denial.) I just wonder if and when Barry will see that video.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

Why didn’t Joe shoot?

Didn't Savitar flee at superspeed immediately after killing Iris (or, really, "Iris")?   There was no one for him to shoot at.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

Didn't Savitar flee at superspeed immediately after killing Iris (or, really, "Iris")?   There was no one for him to shoot at.

He had time between Savitar picking her up again and impaling her. I'm just not sure why they had him on the roof when he didn't do anything.

[johntfs]

Joe needed to be on the roof to watch "Iris" die and emote grief and shock.  Probably one real reason is the gun was firing was some kind of energy cannon, so not exactly a precision sniper weapon.  Presumably the idea was that Iris would get completely clear of Savitar and Joe would take a shot if he had one.  She was never completely clear.

One thing I've come to believe is that Savitar really is a fucked up insane version of "our" Barry and not a time remnant.  Whatever else they are, time remnants seem to be "clones" of the person that summons/creates them.  So, if Savitar was a time remnant created by the future Barry, he'd have that Barry's memories and experiences.  He wouldn't suddenly develop new memories (or a lack of them, as in the case of the amnesia).  The only way that happens is if he's ultimately our Barry.  Recall as well how strenuously the Speed Force Spirits objected to Barry wanting to trade places with Wally.  I think that's because they know this is how Savitar is created.

It might be best to ignore all the time travel and sci-fi bits around this storyline and view it instead through the lens of fantasy or horror.  Savitar is basically an evil wizard who has a ritual of power that, if performed correctly, will turn him into a god.  If it's performed incorrectly, however, he ceases to exist (whatever that means in the Flashverse, recall Thawne).  The "formula" for this ritual is the memory Savitar has of the events that led to his creation.  He has to make sure those events play out as he "remembers" them.  Ultimately I think it means that for this gambit to work, our Barry has to end up trapped in the Speed Force where the memories of Iris's death on Infantino drive him to madness and turn him into Savitar.  So, there's a bit of wiggle room in the ritual.  Iris herself doesn't need to die, just someone who exactly matches what Savitar "remembers" and as others have noted, H.R.'s holograph tech can easily accomplish that.

[Cthulhudrew]

Just back from vacation and late in catching up with this thread, but it sounds like a lot of you are on the same page I am. I'm about done with this show, unless they really manage to turn it around next season. They should never have brought back the "Time Remnant" stuff because it never made any sense, and now they've made it the whole focus of their villain. Since Savitar is a future Time Remnant, couldn't Barry just pull an "Eddie" and decide that he isn't going to ever, ever, EVER create another Time Remnant again and avoid the whole problem? 

A lot of inappropriately timed quippiness this episode, as well as the (oft-mentioned above thread) inexplicable absence of Julian. Lilah's uncharacteristic refusal to work with Barry.

I think the biggest fail this episode was when Barry comes to see Wally in the infirmary. Wally's line "You trusted me, and I failed you" was horrible! Iris is kidnapped by Savitar, and now his biggest concern is not his sister's impending death but in letting Barry down??? WTH, show! Who let that one past?

[johntfs]

37 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

They should never have brought back the "Time Remnant" stuff because it never made any sense, and now they've made it the whole focus of their villain. Since Savitar is a future Time Remnant, couldn't Barry just pull an "Eddie" and decide that he isn't going to ever, ever, EVER create another Time Remnant again and avoid the whole problem? 

I'm okay with the time remnant stuff because I'm pretty sure that whole bit is a line of bullshit that Savitar is feeding Barry to manipulate him.  Remember, Savitar knows what Barry knows.  When future told our Barry about making time remnants, Savitar "remembered" that story as well.  So, figure Savitar used that story to scare Barry out of killing himself, which likely really would have eliminated Savitar.

[Katsullivan]

On 5/20/2017 at 8:26 PM, Maverick said:

 Oy, the stupid in this episode.   It burns.  

 Barry not only knows exactly where the Legends are but also just happens to be able to approach Captain Cold alone.

 Why doesn't Barry ask for help from all the Legends?  You can handwave them away when they're running around in history, but when Barry is standing right in front of the Waverider it's hard to fathom not asking them for assistance.

 Captain Cold can crack a highly advanced electronic lock in under 60 seconds.  Right.  I know he's a thief and all but without those kinda skillz who needs a plan.

 Cisco isn't able to hack the lock that Captain Cold can.  Until he can 2 minutes later to close the door.  Good thing that highly secure facility isn't airgapped.

 How secure is ARGUS is if can be scanned by the Star Labs satellite.  

 There's technology that suppresses mutahuman powers?  M'kay.  

 If there's a way to suppress metahuman powers, maybe instead of bargaining for/stealing the power source you should ask for the plans for that tech.  Then maybe you could, I don't know.  Maybe INSTALL IT STAR LABS.   Then Savitar can't reach Iris.  Oh, and of course you could also have one of the speedsters whisk Killer Frost there so she''d revert to Caitlin.   

Every thing from start to finish in this post is excellent. 

I don't understand the writing for this show. Are the writers really that bad at their jobs? Do they think so little of the IQ of their viewing audience? Do they hate the show and want it to fail? Because there's 'hand-waving' stuff and there's deliberately sabotaging logic and continuity and this show constantly does that.

[johntfs]

Some of that stuff made sense.  Snart is a highly skilled thief and cracking the lock was pretty well the main reason Barry got him.

Presumably Barry has been fully briefed on where/when the Legends were (likely with the instruction "Don't run back there or you'll fuck everything up for us").  That point was likely the moment when Snart exiled Mick from the group in Season 1.

Ask for help from the Legends?  AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!  Well, consider that these were the Season One Legends.  Slipping in, borrowing Cold (who can keep a secret) and then returning him is one thing.  Yanking the entire team out is another.  That idea sounds very much like something that leads to Nazis riding dinosaurs (ie, ultimate time travel fuckup)

[ottoDbusdriver]

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

Ask for help from the Legends?  AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!  Well, consider that these were the Season One Legends.  Slipping in, borrowing Cold (who can keep a secret) and then returning him is one thing.  Yanking the entire team out is another.  That idea sounds very much like something that leads to Nazis riding dinosaurs (ie, ultimate time travel fuckup)

Sidebar:

Nazis riding dinosaurs ??  You must have seen the trailer for the movie 'Iron Sky 2' -- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3038708/

Return from sidebar

Do we know that the Snart Barry grabbed was from S1 of LoT ?  Could have been a from a parallel timiline where Snart didn't die --- and now my brain hurts.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Do we know that the Snart Barry grabbed was from S1 of LoT ?  Could have been a from a parallel timiline where Snart didn't die --- and now my brain hurts.

Well, Barry went to Siberia in the 1890s to get him and Snart mentioned getting back to the Waverider.  We also know that Snart died (or something) in the next to last episode of Season 1.  It's not absolute, but it's the most likely scenario.

[Spaceman Spiff]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:28 AM, Trini said:

[…WAIT — Barry wasn’t wearing his Flash costume at ARGUS. How did he know he’s the Flash?? CRAP. Now another update to The List, and I gotta figure out when exactly King Shark learned this info.]

King Shark knows the Flash's scent and can find him that way. It is why when he was first introduced he attacked the West family home.

[SodaforceMaster]

Most of you are writing a much better show than this one will ever be.

[Lantern7]

On 5/16/2017 at 9:09 PM, Lantern7 said:

Huckster got Iris killed. I can buy that. Stupid, stupid, STUPID Huckster. Even if that was Good Barry, Savitar would have "remembered" where Iris was stashed.

Just reread that from me. Now I feel like an asshole.

[johntfs]

16 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Just reread that from me. Now I feel like an asshole.

To be fair, the show wanted you to be going "Stupid huckster got Iris killed."