S06.E21: The Final Battle Part 1 / S06.E22: The Final Battle Part 2

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, Rushmoras said:

She didn't get a happy ending in my opinion, only her counterpart did.

Why do you think she didn't get her Happy Ending? Because of the lack of romance in her life? She pretty much has everything else--wealth, power, friendship, status, familial love, etc..

[Rushmoras]

9 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Why do you think she didn't get her Happy Ending? Because of the lack of romance in her life? She pretty much has everything else--wealth, power, friendship, status, familial love, etc..

I don't know, wealth, power and status does not warrant to me a happy ending. However, familial love, perhaps... if this series ever even for ten minutes would have dwelled on it more deep (and not just 5 seconds of random, "I love you", "I forgive you", "You not evil anymore", whenever there is a major plot-point coming up).

Edited May 17, 2017 by Rushmoras

[HariboPeach]

8 hours ago, Curio said:

I don't see how dying numerous times and being physically tortured in hell to a bloody pulp isn't a consequence. 

The showrunners actually do classify Hook in a different villain category than Regina and Rumple. There are several interviews out there where they describe Regina and Rumple as being in a worse class of villainy than the other characters, and they don't group Hook into that class. You're welcome to have your own opinion, and A&E have certainly said contradictory things in interviews before, but I'm going to default to the creators of the show on this one because I agree that that's what's been shown on screen.

In that vein, Regina was tortured by Hook, and her "Soulmate" (blech) was killed. She offered to die for the sake of all of them, Emma didn't let her. 

If the showrunners have said that Captain Hook is "not as bad" as the other villains, then I have missed those. In the interviews I've read and videos I've watched, I've always seen him lumped into the villain category. Murder is murder, rape is rape, torture is torture.

 

7 hours ago, Inquirer said:

No, she worked toward redemption for five seasons, since in the first season she was a pure villain.

Arguably, she's only worked toward it for four seasons, since her attempt early on in Season 2 ended up amounting to nothing.

Semantics, but in Season 1, she knew she had to change for Henry. So, I wouldn't say pure villain. 

And even if her attempt amounted to "nothing", the intent was there. Which is an argument used regularly with Captain Hook, since he is viewed as a "better" villain, though he did many of the same things as the other two.

Edited May 17, 2017 by HariboPeach

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I put off watching these eps because I heard ahead of time that Jen wasn't coming back for S7 (if S7 happens - which looks like it will?) and also because I was traveling and didn't have time - but mainly because I just wasn't terribly excited about them.  And now I have 6 pages of comments to catch up on!  Dang!  Lol.  Anyway:

• I think they did a fairly reasonable job of 'wrapping' up the main character's storylines in preparation for this reboot.  I liked Snow's speech at the end, and am glad it was her who gave it.  However:
  • Did we really need another double-dose of the EQ?  No.  We did not.  That felt a lot like a little FU from A&E to ABC, especially since she now got TWO happy endings/beginnings and got to be a "hero" by holding off the BF's curse.  Gross.
  • Ugh at Rumple eating dinner with the Charming/Jones clan.  I know he's Henry's grandfather (who also refused to help the rest of his family) and I'm glad Belle gets a do-over with Gideon even though Snow never got a do-over with Emma (Nealflakedoover doesn't count) and Killian said he gave up his revenge - but still doesn't mean Rumple deserves a chair at the table.
• I am disappointed that the Hook/Charming adventure (glad that Charming followed him) to get the magic bean amounted to nothing.  That was stupid.  They still could have made it relevant, and I think it would have been much better if they'd used it as the way the crowd got back to Storybrooke instead of just because Rumple killed him mummy.  (Killing the BF shouldn't have undone the curse, I don't think.)  I also expected the dragon to be Maleficent who would then help them as they were trying to stop the BF and give them a ride down to the bottom of the beanstalk.  But no.  Both of those incorporated would have been much better than what we got with Rumple's mommy-dearest issues and EQ-deluxe model.  
• I think most of us figured the adult man at the end would be grown up Henry, so no surprise there.  Just not really interested in his story, even if that actor is better looking/better in general than present Henry.  Plus, the little girl didn't really engage me.  So if I don't come back for S7, I won't feel like I missed out on anything.  

Although I'll probably be back for the premiere at least - morbid curiosity and all.  Then again, without Jen, I don't want them ruining Hook and Emma for me and I don't trust that they won't do that. 

[Camera One]

Aside from the montage at the end, the rest of it felt like a random episode that could have been in the middle of a season.  No character except maybe the Evil Queen had any meaningful development or conclusion, certainly not worthy of what could be their final appearance.

Emma: Spent 3/4 episode without her memories and not believing.  Then, we got the same thing about her facing death.  There was nothing new.  Even last episode with the songs was more "realization" for her character.

Snow: I'm not positive what she even did in this episode.

Charming: With the Captain Charming beanstalk adventure, this was pretty much their dynamic by the end of "Murder Most Foul".  You wouldn't even know Hook killed his father.  

Hook:  He'd do anything to get back to Emma.  We saw three episodes of him doing this already.

Henry: Tried to make Emma believe.  Which we've seen for the umpteenth time.

Zelena: Aside from some snarky comments, she didn't do anything.

Belle: Was onscreen for 10 minutes, did the same thing as always.

Regina: The only "breakthrough" was her finding out her other half was capable of sacrifice.  Redux "Page 23".

The Evil Queen: Biggest breakthrough, being willing to sacrifice herself.  Though Regina did the same thing in the Season 2 finale.

Rumple: Did a 180 and killed his mother.  Rejected evil.  Again.  No one believes it will stick so that's not development.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Mitch]

I watched it a day delay...(and made a point of not reading the forums until after I watched...)and I have to say, I enjoyed it. Yes, I had to take the show for what it was, and realize that it was never going to live up to its potential, as this was going to be the "last" episode that was easy to sit back and take it on its own merits and truth be told, I was off work the next day so the bottle of wine probably clouded my judgement (no, I am not a alcoholic, I am a Once viewer....) but I like it.

It was fun seeing the gang get together for one more romp of absurdity.  The awards for MVPS go to the Fiona actress, who as much as I love LP, I would have loved to see what she could have done with the EQ and Mayor Mills. She came into her own in the business suit and I loved her line readings that smacked of menace..."Not even mentioning I am his mother and would never hurt him...." and her hilarious look of delight and mock pity showing Rump the equally hilarious pics of Belle living it up in front of every monument on earth. If only she could have been the main villain all season and if they had taken the time to develop her. I also wanted to see her version of Cursed Storybrooke for several episodes. Second place goes to  Zelena, who acted as the Greek chorus for the episode, Mader can roll her eyes in annoyance like no one else, and her one line summed up this entire series..."Well that was dissapointing". Third MVP award goes to little baby Neal, whose crying mirrored what I would be doing if the Great Wall of Nothing was approaching, and he already out acts his TV dad, who looked less then that he and his family were going to die and more like he just found out his favorite moisturizer was discontinued.

Other positive things, I like the concept of the realms of magic disappearing, a return to cursed SB and the subtle use of magic there (SB should have always been like that, I didnt even mind the bad CGI in the EF, it SHOULD look weird and surreal, but bad CGI looked just that in SB,  and really Emma's ultimate sacrifice as the Savior. Emma dying is the logical conclusion to her role of Savior and I disagree with others who say she was worthless, it was her death and her white magic which restored all the realms and made annoying Gideon a baby again for a do over.  I didn't mind the wake up kiss and, I know what kind of show I am watching.  I know this is a big Hook/Emma board but I thought it was right that it was her son her gave her the TLK, and Hook was annoying me to no end with his screaming of "What about EMMA?" (hey worlds are collapsing right now....)  I loved the EQ who is more like a Mischevious Queen now and her line "Well, MOST of the time!" (though I couldn't keep my eyes off of LP's double when they were standing looking out at the Cursed Thing coming.

The show was of course HUUUGE on plot holes and it made me sad to again, think of the lost potential of this show. This is a supposed Golden Age of TV writing and this show should have been much, much better. It was sloppily written for years relying on gimmicks, and concept and Disney characters cameos. Shame on the lazy writers.  The stupidity of Charming surviving the fall is just one of those things...no way a skinny pretty boy could have survived  that, no one could! Does the EF have a different gravity pull?  But I liked the shout out to those two idiots love and  I believed it, especially when she looked at him like "Damn, I love you, you big dork!" ... maybe because of their real life marriage. Why wouldn't Fiona make all the characters in the EF forget SB? Why leave Henry awake? Why not send Emma out into the LWM with no memory?  Why wouldn't she suspect Rumple would remember and why in hell would she allow the one thing that could control and kill her, sit in a drawer in her shady son's shop????  Why would the gang forgive him for basically not giving a shit about the realms, and thank God, I will never have to hear Henry call him "Grandpa"..kid, while the biology is there, neither one of you earned that as you really have no emotional relationship..Also, at the very end, I would have had SB restored to a no magic town and everyone living normal lives...(yea, I know they want this cheap jack follow up show..) And I know that they had Jasmine and Aladdin on contract and didn't know what to do with them but why would we see them and not Blue/Whale/Red (how I would have loved to see Blue as Fiona's put upon secretary in the Mayor's office, but she is secretly awake too, and it is both her and Rump who kill the BF together.) And why have Aladdin on if your going to completely cover him up in that goofy get up, we see enough to Hook chest equal opportunity here folks.

But all said and done, I felt that this episode was good old time Once, dark with a mushy sentimental heart, and got the goofs when everyone was eating at the table..non withstanding the hitting us over the head with the religious symbolism, and that it was a big F You to Walking Dead's exact same scene, which was all a dream of what could have been...I felt it was a really good ending.

Now this whole thing with Hipster Doufus Sour Face Cannibal Adult Henry is another thing. I have no desire to tune into Once's version of "Archie Bunker's Place".

Edited May 17, 2017 by Mitch

[Delphi]

4 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

I don't know, wealth, power and status does not warrant to me a happy ending. However, familial love, perhaps... if this series ever even for ten minutes would have dwelled on it more deep (and not just 5 seconds of random, "I love you", "I forgive you", "You not evil anymore", whenever there is a major plot-point coming up).

 I'd say all of that combined with peace of mind after over 35 years of chaos and bloodshed is a pretty good happy ending. 

If anything,  I think Snow got ripped off in the happy ending department,  here princess,  sorry your life has sucked for 40 years but don't worry,  your husband gets to be a farmer and you can get to teach third graders irrelevant history that doesn't apply to your entire society.   Oh,  and almost all your friends are in a different realm.   Congrats. 

3 hours ago, HariboPeach said:

 

Semantics, but in Season 1, she knew she had to change for Henry. So, I wouldn't say pure villain. 

She spent the entire season gaslighting her son,  murdered her enslaved lover, had a woman abducted and framed a schoolteacher for murder and finished the season by trying to poison a woman,  but accidentally poisoned her son instead.   Even objectively, that is totally pure villain. 

[kingshearte]

So... That happened. Overall, if one ignores the fact that half the plot points didn't really make sense, it was a lovely series finale*. Too bad about that pesky seventh season...

* If nothing else, I will always support the return of Captain Guyliner.

[tennisgurl]

I think I cut Hook more slack than Regina and Rumple for two reasons.

1. At his worst, he was a petty crook who stole and killed people in the course of stealing or revenge (even if I still think his killing of Charming's father was out of character), and most of his worst behavior (his treatment of Belle) was in the course of his revenge against Rumple, and a huge part of his character was getting over revenge and realizing that it drove him to become a person he hated. And, hey, at least his revenge was based around the guy who actually killed his girlfriend and hacked his hand off, not a poor little kid who got manipulated. I'm not saying its not a big deal that he was a pirate, but he was always pretty low on the evil totem pole.

2. Hook has felt awful about his past for several seasons, and has actually accepted the angry of people he has hurt in the past, and has tried to make things right when he can. I totally buy that feels remorse for what he's done, and while I would have been fine with him going to magic jail or something at some point, but he did get killed, sent to Hell, and tortured, so at least that's some kind of karmic punishment.

To me, Regina and Rumple never seemed to really try to make things right with the people they'd hurt in the past, beyond a few quick apologizes. Actually, has Rumple ever said he was sorry to anyone but Belle and Bae? I really don't remember. I know Regina has said she was sorry to Snow, and that was appreciated, but I would have liked to see some of her crimes to really come back to haunt her, and her to actually have to deal with that. Like, Percival was the perfect chance to force Regina to face what she did in the past, and try to make amends and show that shed changed...but that didn't happen. Instead, he was portrayed as a villain for daring to be pissed at a person who slaughtered his village and was quickly killed off. Granted, this show did a terrible job of following up on Charming's feelings about Hook killing his dad, so this show sucks at showing consequences for anyone, it just seems more notable with Rumple and Regina, because they have SO MANY victims and have done so many awful things on such huge levels. Much larger than what Hook did at his worst.

[HariboPeach]

I believe the main reason people cut Hook more slack than Regina or Rumple is because they find him attractive, so it's easier to look at his crimes against humanity as not that bad because he's sad sometimes. I'm not saying that everyone who likes him likes him only superficially, but I do think that is part of it. He's done lots of bad stuff too. I do like him as a character, but I won't put him on a pedestal. I wish I had the depth of knowledge to throw episodes and specific script notes around to back up my opinions, but I can't possibly remember everything. In most cases, it's about 436 to 1. CaptainSwan shippers vs...me.

(As a side note, I think the "like" system of this site is nonsensical. The only time people get likes on their posts is if they participate in the hivemind of the forum. So JoeSchmoe has 23 likes on a post saying 'but they are true loves, canon says so!' while JaneSchmane has 0 likes on a well thought out post highlighting a differing opinion. It's really not fair that someone who has interesting things to say ends up looking like a schmuck (or neutral in site terms) when someone else who just spews the overriding opinion of the forum looks like a superstar poster.)

[InsertWordHere]

10 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

I believe the main reason people cut Hook more slack than Regina or Rumple is because they find him attractive, so it's easier to look at his crimes against humanity as not that bad because he's sad sometimes.

Nope. You may have noticed that Lana Parrilla is a very attractive woman herself. Unless you're implying the majority on this forum are only attracted to dark-haired stubbled men with chest hair, which would be a weird thing to say, since many people can look at a conventionally attractive person and say, "meh, not for me." Personally, the most attractive male on this show for me has always been Charming and I don't cut him a lot of slack either, although once I heard his gorgeous singing voice that admittedly got a lot harder. 

[HariboPeach]

4 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Nope. You may have noticed that Lana Parrilla is a very attractive woman herself. Unless you're implying the majority on this forum are only attracted to dark-haired stubbled men with chest hair, which would be a weird thing to say, since many people can look at a conventionally attractive person and say, "meh, not for me." Personally, the most attractive male on this show for me has always been Charming and I don't cut him a lot of slack either, although once I heard his gorgeous singing voice that admittedly got a lot harder. 

If you don't find Hook attractive, then that opinion would not be aimed at you. That's why I said not everyone that likes him likes him only superficially. But yes, if we are making generalizations about the board, I would say that most people here fawn over Hook much more than any other character. And it's not like that everywhere else.

I'm not trying to make waves with dissenting opinions. But it seems like every time I make a positive post about Regina, or anything remotely anti-Hook, I get lots of replies telling me how wrong I am. That's disheartening when participating in an open forum. 

[Delphi]

Agreed.   The cast is essentially completely gorgeous.   Even Robert is very attractive in an unconventional older way, who I incidentally find massively attractive.  I'm also afan of Rumple, but its not as if I act as if he's not done monstrous things because he has. 

On the scale of things,  Hook just can't compare.  He killed Charming's father and shot my favourite character but he still can't compete for awfulness. 

[InsertWordHere]

11 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

But yes, if we are making generalizations about the board, I would say that most people here fawn over Hook much more than any other character. And it's not like that everywhere else.

So what would be the solution to that? Every time I defend Hook, I have to start with a disclaimer saying, "Hook's as hot as almost every other person on this show save Charming, but I'm not defending him because of that?"

Look, I get what you're saying, and I agree it's probably really hard to post here when you don't agree with the majority, but judging posters preference of a character based on how good-looking he is while the character they are comparing him to is also incredibly good-looking is not going to help. 

[asabovesobelow]

13 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

So what would be the solution to that? Every time I defend Hook, I have to start with a disclaimer saying, "Hook's as hot as almost every other person on this show save Charming, but I'm not defending him because of that?"

Look, I get what you're saying, and I agree it's probably really hard to post here when you don't agree with the majority, but judging posters preference of a character based on how good-looking he is while the character they are comparing him to is also incredibly good-looking is not going to help. 

That's an interesting point. I find Lana Parilla extremely attractive (because I'm attracted to women) and Colin O'Donoghue attractive in a more subjective way. Does it color my view of Regina? Probably. I can admit that she has done many atrocious things in her lifetime, but maybe I'm just a littttttle bit skewed because I find her really, really, really attractive. So I love the character and I will always find where she has atoned, done the right thing, been victimized, etc. more than someone else might.

But sadly, I agree with the first part of your post, asking what the solution would be. I don't think there is one. Viewers who don't like Hook and/or CS aren't going to find any warmth here. It is what it is. 

[InsertWordHere]

I gotta admit, I was kind of hoping the anger across the fandoms at A&E and ABC would make us all forget our differences and come together in our bitterness. 

Okay, I didn't really think that would happen, but it would be nice! 

I have tried my hardest to never imply that Regina's popularity is in any way due to her looks and frequent displays of certain assets which I have seen members of her fandom mention on occasion. More power to them, I say! I just get disheartened when I see people accuse Hook fans of the same thing and it seems to be generally accepted. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[KingOfHearts]

I'm still pretty freaking bitter that the Black Fairy didn't need the Heart of the Thing She Loved Most to cast the curse. Kind of makes Rumple's need for Regina to cast the curse bogus. The writers can get around anything by drawing crap out of the air. "Um, dark fairy dust, that's why"

Edited May 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 5/14/2017 at 10:18 PM, Last Time Lord said:

I'm going to assume 28 for the parallel.

I don't think so.  That would put Adult Henry in his forties - which, unless he's been living in Neverland (don't put anything past these writers!) that actor sure didn't look like it!

On 5/14/2017 at 10:49 PM, Shanna Marie said:

The episode playing out in my head was a lot more interesting. I had Hook saving himself from the beanstalk fall by throwing down the bean as he fell so that he fell through the portal (how did he survive a freefall from that high?) and landed near where Emma was, and then Emma, who'd been having flashes of him and who had seen the picture of the guy she was having flashes of when she burned the book, would suddenly be facing this pirate who claimed to be her husband, and then Hook could have been part of making her believe (since Snow urging him was part of the promos, and that, too, amounted to nothing).

I guess we found out why the Black Fairy was doing all this,

1.  That would have been SO much better.

2. Did we find out why the BF really did all this?  I don't even remember.  

On 5/15/2017 at 0:14 AM, Curio said:

So, in Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville...

Hook is hundreds of feet in the air hurtling to the ground. Now he's only a hundred feet. Fifty feet. At the last second, he pulls out the magic bean and chucks it below him. He thinks of Emma. Just as it appears Hook is going to look like a Wile E. Coyote accordion, the magic portal opens and he falls through. At that very moment, Emma is paging through Henry's hand-drawn storybook in her Boston apartment. She flips to a page with a picture of Captain Hook, which makes her remember a time when the man from the burning page knocked on her door and kissed her. She also remembers kicking him in the jewels. But that's not a memory, it can't be a memory... Knock. Knock. Knock. Emma puts down Henry's makeshift storybook and answers the door. It's Captain Hook. "Emma! I know you don't remember me, but..." "Captain Hook." "Wait. You do remember me?" "No. Well, kind of. I mean, you have a hook for a hand, who else could you be?" Zoom in on a large mirror in Emma's apartment. The Black Fairy is spying on Emma and notices Captain Hook has made an appearance. This won't do. The Black Fairy fiddles with some potions and casts a magical spell. Meanwhile, Hook pleads with Emma to believe him, and he's actually making really good progress, but the mirror in Emma's apartment suddenly shatters. Unbeknownst to them, it's the Black Fairy's spell. While Emma has her back turned and is investigating the broken mirror, the magic bean portal quickly opens up and swallows Killian back to the Enchanted Forest where he is soon found by his Mommy-in-Law under some giant leaves. Emma turns around and is incredibly confused that the pirate man has suddenly disappeared. Okay, this is it. Emma needs to go back to Storybrooke. She wants to believe that man is real. 

Boom. Killian has a hand in helping Emma remember, Captain Swan get to interact for longer than 10 seconds, the bean adventure wasn't a total waste of time, and Killian using the bean and the Black Fairy tampering with the portal could explain why the bean is dried up by the time Hook gives it to Regina. Oh, and it explains how Hook ended up on the ground without a scratch on him but David was critically injured.

As usual, folks on here have a better idea/script than do the writers!

On 5/15/2017 at 0:03 PM, Shanna Marie said:

While I liked Hook's speech with David at the beanstalk, it's not entirely accurate. Hook knows that Snow and David didn't have some easy, pre-ordained true love.

Thank you - I kept thinking that same thing during that speech.  What is this 'pre-destined' love?  I thought it was because Snow and Charming and Cinderella and her prince (what was that guy's name?) and Eric and Ariel had to fight for their love that made it True.  (Notice I left out Rumpel and Belle...)

1 hour ago, HariboPeach said:

I believe the main reason people cut Hook more slack than Regina or Rumple is because they find him attractive, 

(As a side note, I think the "like" system of this site is nonsensical. The only time people get likes on their posts is if they participate in the hivemind of the forum. So JoeSchmoe has 23 likes on a post saying 'but they are true loves, canon says so!' while JaneSchmane has 0 likes on a well thought out post highlighting a differing opinion. It's really not fair that someone who has interesting things to say ends up looking like a schmuck (or neutral in site terms) when someone else who just spews the overriding opinion of the forum looks like a superstar poster.)

1. Um...No.  The main reason I cut Hook slack is because he actually did something to right some of his wrongs: like apologize to Belle and help Ursula get her happy ending.  Regina?  Maybe if I squint.  Rumpel?  Not even with all the rose-colored glasses in the world.

2. That's B.S.  I often give 'likes' for posts which no one else does or has.  (just did upthread) For me it has to do with 

1. if I agree with the sentiment(s)
2. Even if I don't necessarily agree with the opinion, if it was a well thought out and explained.

I'm sure I am not the only one.  Or do you really like those sour grapes?

[HariboPeach]

38 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

2. That's B.S.  I often give 'likes' for posts which no one else does or has.  (just did upthread) For me it has to do with 

1. if I agree with the sentiment(s)
2. Even if I don't necessarily agree with the opinion, if it was a well thought out and explained.

I'm sure I am not the only one.  Or do you really like those sour grapes?

Love 'em. They make the best wine.

You may be sure you're not the only one, but take a look through. See what posts get the likes. The ones that disagree with any dissenters. And clearly not because they're all well thought out and explained. Negative posts about Hook are met with defensiveness and condescension. If you don't agree, I invite you to view them. 

Clearly we are off topic here. I'll bow out.

Edited May 17, 2017 by HariboPeach

[KingOfHearts]

Did anyone else notice the Rumple/Fiona plot was almost exactly like the Cora/Regina plot in 2B? Fiona even wore a pantsuit and the same hairstyle. Just replace dying Rumple with Emma. The only key difference was Rumple made the "right" choice, while Regina didn't.

Edited May 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[RulerofallIsurvey]

36 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

Love 'em. They make the best wine.

You may be sure you're not the only one, but take a look through. See what posts get the likes. The ones that disagree with any dissenters. And clearly not because they're all well thought out and explained. Negative posts about Hook are met with defensiveness and condescension. If you don't agree, I invite you to view them. 

Actually, no they don't - the volatile acid content is too high.

I'd already read through the six pages of comments before I made the one above.  No need to view them again.  You made a blanket statement about "the hivemind" of this forum, which I proved false even if I am the only one.  

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

1.  Um...No.  The main reason I cut Hook slack is because he actually did something to right some of his wrongs: like apologize to Belle and help Ursula get her happy ending.  Regina?  Maybe if I squint.  Rumpel?  Not even with all the rose-colored glasses in the world.

2. That's B.S.  I often give 'likes' for posts which no one else does or has.  (just did upthread) For me it has to do with 

1. if I agree with the sentiment(s)
2. Even if I don't necessarily agree with the opinion, if it was a well thought out and explained.

I'm sure I am not the only one.  Or do you really like those sour grapes?

This. And that's all I'm going to say on the issue. 

[Arnella]

Just throwing in my 2 cents as to being ok with Evil due to attractiveness issue:

I have been crushingly attracted to Robert Carlyle for 20 years and why I started watching.  I had so many arguments on the forum in first couple of seasons about Rumple being unredeemable evil with those who thought him just a misunderstood cutie.  I didn't want him to be redeemed; I wanted him to be a super fun EEEEVIL villain.  He is still unredeemed and unredeemable but hasn't been fun for a long time and now just a wife abusing liar.  So not as straight forward as attractiveness.

I was done with Regina after Grahams rape and murder.  I never cared how much fashion porn they threw out there, I do not now or ever did argue or even think she was redeemable.  However, I've never seen a lot of Regina fans on this forum.

I was vociferous in my hatred of Hook.  I was back to arguing with those who thought he was just a misunderstood cutie when he joined the show. I didn't find him a fun evil villain but another scum bag being put forward as a love interest for a good heroine.  However, he actually has won me over as things have gone along.  He really has atoned (died, gone to hell, be tortured by Satan) and apologized and (forgive me for using this way too over used show word) changed.  It probably helps that the rest of the characters haven't fawned over him against ALL reason like Regina.

So I don't believe it is just attractiveness but a combination of that and writing and the actor's portrayal.  Although, I totally agree that there are those who's hormones over ride reason but over 6 seasons of viewer abuse by the writers, I have seen a lot of them change their tunes as well.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Arnella

[tennisgurl]

3 hours ago, HariboPeach said:

I believe the main reason people cut Hook more slack than Regina or Rumple is because they find him attractive, so it's easier to look at his crimes against humanity as not that bad because he's sad sometimes

I cant speak for everyone here, but if that is a reference to my post as why I take Hooks redemption more seriously than Regina and Rumples redemptions, its not because I find him more attractive. Reading my old posts on TWOP, I'm reminded that I hated Hook when he debuted in season 2, and I didn't at all want him and Emma to get together. I thought he was good looking and that Colin was putting in a good performance, but I thought his character was an annoying asshole with a generic "rogue" personality and little chemistry with Emma. And I hated what he did to poor Belle. It wasn't until later in season 3 when he started becoming more sympathetic that I actually started liking him as a character, even though I found him just as good looking as ever. I didn't fully get on board with him until he really started putting in an effort to be a good person and make up for what he had done. I just like his character and I buy his redemption because I feel like he worked for it more than the other reformed villains. That's just my opinion. If you don't agree, or feel like he is on the same level as the others, that's your opinion, and I respect it.

Personally, while I think this forum is very CS/Hook friendly, and is often more anti Regina than other places on the net, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a hive mind. Reading through posts here, we do have some diversity of opinions, especially on shipping, and while some people can certainly get...intense when it comes to their favorites/least favorites, its certainly not as volatile as other places in fandom, and, personally, I enjoy a wealth of opinions when it comes to TV. As long as people aren't getting personal or rude, I would welcome anyone who disagrees with me, or the majority. It keeps the conversation interesting, and avoids the aforementioned hive mind. If everyone just agrees with each other, its not a very fun discussion.

[Last Time Lord]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think so.  That would put Adult Henry in his forties - which, unless he's been living in Neverland (don't put anything past these writers!) that actor sure didn't look like it!

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying (or attempted to, anyway) that I was predicting Henry was 28, for the parallel, not that 28 years had passed. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, Last Time Lord said:

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying (or attempted to, anyway) that I was predicting Henry was 28, for the parallel, not that 28 years had passed. 

Ah - gotcha.  You'll probably be right about that. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
agreed.

[HariboPeach]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I cant speak for everyone here, but if that is a reference to my post as why I take Hooks redemption more seriously than Regina and Rumples redemptions, its not because I find him more attractive. Reading my old posts on TWOP, I'm reminded that I hated Hook when he debuted in season 2, and I didn't at all want him and Emma to get together. I thought he was good looking and that Colin was putting in a good performance, but I thought his character was an annoying asshole with a generic "rogue" personality and little chemistry with Emma. And I hated what he did to poor Belle. It wasn't until later in season 3 when he started becoming more sympathetic that I actually started liking him as a character, even though I found him just as good looking as ever. I didn't fully get on board with him until he really started putting in an effort to be a good person and make up for what he had done. I just like his character and I buy his redemption because I feel like he worked for it more than the other reformed villains. That's just my opinion. If you don't agree, or feel like he is on the same level as the others, that's your opinion, and I respect it.

Personally, while I think this forum is very CS/Hook friendly, and is often more anti Regina than other places on the net, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a hive mind. Reading through posts here, we do have some diversity of opinions, especially on shipping, and while some people can certainly get...intense when it comes to their favorites/least favorites, its certainly not as volatile as other places in fandom, and, personally, I enjoy a wealth of opinions when it comes to TV. As long as people aren't getting personal or rude, I would welcome anyone who disagrees with me, or the majority. It keeps the conversation interesting, and avoids the aforementioned hive mind. If everyone just agrees with each other, its not a very fun discussion.

I love this. Thank you. And your reasoning makes perfect sense.

[tennisgurl]

@HariboPeach Awwww! Thanks, I'm glad I'm making sense :) No matter our opinions on the show itself, we are all clearly invested, and that's the most important thing to have in common! We`re all in this together!

[Inquirer]

9 hours ago, HariboPeach said:

In that vein, Regina was tortured by Hook,

Um, no she wasn't.  She was betrayed by Hook after having betrayed him to potential death via zombie Maleficent as part of her plan to kill everyone in town except her and Henry.  Hook then left her to be tortured but didn't do any of the actual torturing, he even outright refused to when offered, and Regina was actually tortured by a guy she had orphaned as a child and had been lying to about it.  I didn't feel one iota of pity for Regina there.

I did, however, pity her in this finale...or rather, the other her, the Evil Queen.  She never asked to be brought into this world as her own individual, but she was and then was given a chance at a good life as her own person, yet she was willing to sacrifice that life for everyone else's sake.  I honestly question if she really was Regina's "dark half", between this and her actually apologizing to Snow for all that she'd done, she seems like the better one.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Inquirer

[Curio]

15 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

Hook then left her to be tortured but didn't do any of the actual torturing, he even outright refused to when offered

Correct. "Sorry, mate. Gonna have to say no. When you're interested in killing Rumplestiltskin and not torturing the Queen, find me."

I kind of wish we could split this thread into discussing the two episodes separately. I found myself totally engrossed in the first hour, but it was like the second half ignored most of the set-up in the first half and became something entirely different. The first half made it clear that Emma's battle was internal, but the second half it turned external. The first half devoted a lot of time to trying to trigger Emma's memories using images of her husband, but the second half completely ignored all those clues. The first half devoted an entire adventure to retrieving a magic bean, but the second half didn't even use it as the method to return home. Did Adam write one script and Eddy write the other? Why was there such a drastic shift in the storytelling styles?

[InsertWordHere]

1 hour ago, HariboPeach said:

I love this. Thank you. And your reasoning makes perfect sense.

I love that post as well. If only we didn't have to explain our reasons for liking every character in order to pass some sort of purity test so we wouldn't get accused of only cutting them slack because we find them attractive. We could, and I'm just spitballing here, instead assume that everyone has valid reasons for finding a character compelling, ranging from the shallow and mundane to the Leslie Knope color-coded 20 point presentation level. If we did that, we could start discussing the characters' merits on their own, without making personal judgements on posters here. Boy, that would be something.

All opinions on every character are welcome here, I enjoy reading them, and I would hope that doesn't need to be explicitly stated before every opposing argument is made.

2 hours ago, HariboPeach said:

See what posts get the likes. The ones that disagree with any dissenters.

Actually, I went back and checked and the most upvoted posts on this thread seem to be criticisms at the show and its creators, not people disagreeing with you over Regina's happy ending or her similarity to Hook. To be fair, traffic has probably significantly died down since Sunday. For the record, I find all the happy endings unfulfilling and trite, and wouldn't disagree with anyone who doesn't like their favorite character's ending, nor would I automatically agree with them just because we happen to like the same character. 

This conversation has derailed the thread enough, so I will not bow out of it. 

[Olivia Y]

Only just watched the episode. What exactly was the point of Aladdin/Jasmine being back? Was it just in their contracts to appear in one more episode. They did nothing ...well I guess Jasmine clicked a magic carpet or whatever. Sigh, to think Aladdin was supposed to be such a big deal. 

It's a real pity that for all that it's a grand finale, they couldn't fit more of the other characters we've been introduced to into the final montage. Yeah I know contracts/filming would've been a nightmare to coordinate, but it was a bit of a let down to be shown all the 'lands' without the any non-CGI characters. Like when they showed Sven I almost thought we'd get to see what the Frozen characters were doing; or Red, she was a major character who was just never mentioned again (made even more jarring considering how often they're at Granny's), they mentioned Oz not been there and none of them worried about Red (or Mulan, I don't even know if she's still in Oz).

Did they show the land where Ariel is supposed to be? And Aurora, Cinderella, etc.? They're supposedly still in Storybrooke right? Or did they get lost in the last curse? Argh! Why did I let myself care about these characters?

[KAOS Agent]

Considering our heads were supposed to explode with amazement at the awesomeness of that cliffhanger, there has been a marked disinterest in discussing this show in the fandom. Even the gif-ing of the final scenes is limited. I just don't see the celebration that this episode should have made happen for the fans. This was the end for Snowing, Emma, Belle and Zelena. They got their "happy endings" and no one seems really enthused or happy about it. This show used to be my absolute favorite thing. I remember the wait for the S3 finale being excruciating because it looked so exciting and fun. This year, I almost forgot it was on.  There was a time when I would have gotten up in arms about endings for certain characters (looking at you, Rumpel), but it's hard for me to even care anymore. I might express some unhappiness with it, but I don't really have an emotional reaction. What did they do to this show that I am so disengaged when I used to be so intense about my feelings about it?

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

The first half devoted a lot of time to trying to trigger Emma's memories using images of her husband, but the second half completely ignored all those clues. The first half devoted an entire adventure to retrieving a magic bean, but the second half didn't even use it as the method to return home. Did Adam write one script and Eddy write the other? Why was there such a drastic shift in the storytelling styles?

The first half was "How do we kill time" and the second half was "Oh no oh no oh no we have 20 minutes left we need to kill The Black Fairy, get everyone back to Storybrooke, make Emma believe, have Gideon try to kill her, have Henry TLK Emma and put on the happy montage and set up for the reboot!"

[Shanna Marie]

The departing character I think really got robbed was Belle. She started well this season, showing hints of a spine, moving out, bonding with Hook, realizing how toxic Rumple is. But then all her issues were completely swept aside, like everything was okay because it turned out that Rumple didn't speed up her pregnancy and they had to deal with Gideon together. I guess the "Beauty and the Beast" dance was supposed to mean everything was perfect, never mind that Rumple explicitly refused to help and that he'd contributed to a lot of the problem by teaming up with the Black Fairy. Now goodness knows what will happen to her, and her very real concerns from earlier in the season will never be addressed, and her characters will never have the chance to live up to what she could be.

Rumple being at the dinner was rather eyeroll-inducing, given the things I mentioned above. He made one decent choice in a situation he was at least partially responsible for, after refusing to help. But what about all the other harm he's done, even recently?

As for Regina, that's mostly a lost cause. But I don't get the point of the scene with the dwarfs. It's like they were trying to wrap up something no one cared about. We've barely seen her interact with the dwarfs. Was anyone dying of curiosity about how the dwarfs feel about Regina? Was there any doubt about her being accepted in her role? Her being mayor/queen hasn't been questioned since early season 2, and Grumpy gave Snow a lot more grief in her brief term than he ever did Regina. She didn't do anything in particular to earn this now. Not to mention, she's a character who's coming back and they're recurring characters played mostly by local character actors, so do we even need closure with them now? That whole bit was a big ??????

[HariboPeach]

37 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

I love that post as well. If only we didn't have to explain our reasons for liking every character in order to pass some sort of purity test so we wouldn't get accused of only cutting them slack because we find them attractive. We could, and I'm just spitballing here, instead assume that everyone has valid reasons for finding a character compelling, ranging from the shallow and mundane to the Leslie Knope color-coded 20 point presentation level. If we did that, we could start discussing the characters' merits on their own, without making personal judgements on posters here. Boy, that would be something.

Actually, I went back and checked and the most upvoted posts on this thread seem to be criticisms at the show and its creators, not people disagreeing with you over Regina's happy ending or her similarity to Hook.

I was simply appreciating her civility. 

It wasn't about me specifically. It's an overarching observation.

So this episode though, huh? I found the Black Fairy to be a pretty weak Original Evil. I think Hades was a much more formidable villain. I'm not sure why they touted her as the worst ever when they could have just played up the Rumple's mother part.

[KingOfHearts]

29 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The first half was "How do we kill time" and the second half was "Oh no oh no oh no we have 20 minutes left we need to kill The Black Fairy, get everyone back to Storybrooke, make Emma believe, have Gideon try to kill her, have Henry TLK Emma and put on the happy montage and set up for the reboot!"

The Black Fairy gets the "Lamest Way to Die" award for Big Bads. Rumple just killed her in the middle of things, and it was like, "Well I guess that happened." What's the point of making baddies related to or in love with Rumple if he just doesn't give a flip? 

Quote

Rumple being at the dinner was rather eyeroll-inducing, given the things I mentioned above. He made one decent choice in a situation he was at least partially responsible for, after refusing to help. But what about all the other harm he's done, even recently?

Rumple eating dinner with everyone was like if the townspeople had eaten Regina's lasagna in 2B. I hated watching Emma laugh and open her arms like he was her grandpa or something. How many times has he betrayed her family, again? Unlike Regina, she usually gets pissed off by it too.

Quote

As for Regina, that's mostly a lost cause. But I don't get the point of the scene with the dwarfs. It's like they were trying to wrap up something no one cared about. We've barely seen her interact with the dwarfs. Was anyone dying of curiosity about how the dwarfs feel about Regina? Was there any doubt about her being accepted in her role?

TS,TW. The writers get off by seeing Regina as the queen and accepted by all. If this were the series finale, we wouldn't have seen her again.

Quote

This was the end for Snowing, Emma, Belle and Zelena. They got their "happy endings" and no one seems really enthused or happy about it. 

At the end of the day, we all knew what their happy endings were and they could have happened any time. Other than with Zelena, you could have stopped the show at the end of S3 with the same outcomes. The characters have been "on hold" for the past three seasons, spinning their wheels. For five minutes their lives are not in danger, and that warrants happy endings? Please. Moana could be popping out of an urn any second. Rumple's great aunt Esmerelda could be scheming to destroy the world with an army of hunchbacks.

Edited May 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, why was the Black Fairy the Biggest Bad Ever again? She was just some random chick who did a ton of research, got powers, and kidnapped a bunch of kids as cheap labor. She apparently made the dark curse, but...so what? She didn't do anything with it. Hell, her whole motivation boiled down to "I will fight this random woman I don't know because destiny says so". And she got taken out easier than I get rid of ants in my kitchen. Lame.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

How many times has he betrayed her family, again?

This month alone, probably upwards of 4 times... repairing the sword for Gideon, pretending The Black Fairy was dead, standing by while The Black Fairy enacted the Curse, and not helping Henry to stop the realms from being destroyed.  But remember, if you don't forgive someone, you're evil.

[KingOfHearts]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But remember, if you don't forgive someone, you're evil.

It's a miracle the light wasn't darkened by Emma murdering™ Cruella and turning into the Dark Swan. 

This episode is yet another testament to one simple fact - if Henry is involved, there will be belief hocus-pocus that makes no sense and plot holes as far as the eye can see. I still hate him. The only highlights of the episode were seeing him unconscious at the bottom of the stairs, then laying on a stretcher. Those are the moments worth living for.

Edited May 18, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

What did they do to this show that I am so disengaged when I used to be so intense about my feelings about it?

Same.  And I don't really know.  I'm certain someone much more eloquent than I could explain it better, but I think it has to do with all the times the show has shown the 'villains' win (looking at you, Rumpel) or at least not really pay for their crimes (EQ) and get accepted by the 'heros' anyway(Regina) - so why should we bother to care when icons like Snow White and Prince Charming don't?

1 hour ago, HariboPeach said:

So this episode though, huh? I found the Black Fairy to be a pretty weak Original Evil. I think Hades was a much more formidable villain. I'm not sure why they touted her as the worst ever when they could have just played up the Rumple's mother part.

Agreed about the Black Fairy - though I never really felt that Hades was very formidable either.  He could have been - but it just didn't play out as well as it could have, imo.  As far as the show touting her as the worst ever, it also touted Rumpel as the Darkest One Evah (since he absorbed all the DarkOne's Darkness when Hook died) and that also amounted to a whole lot of Nothing.  But hey, at least the Black Fairy managed to cast a curse that, had it worked as it was supposed to, would have given her (Power and Love) more than what Regina's orginal curse gave her (Power but not Love).  

51 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

1. It's a miracle the light wasn't darkened by Emma murdering™ Cruella and turning into the Dark Swan. 

2. <snip>The only highlights of the episode were seeing him unconscious at the bottom of the stairs, then laying on a stretcher. Those are the moments worth living for.

1. I wondered about that (seriously!) during the Emma/Gidiot face-off.  So, since Emma's heart should have already been darkened since she defended herself against , killed, murdered Cruella, did it really matter if she let Gidiot stab her?

2. Your heart is full of unwashed socks, Mr. Grinch!  ;)

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

This episode is yet another testament to one simple fact - if Henry is involved, there will be belief hocus-pocus that makes no sense and plot holes as far as the eye can see. I still hate him. The only highlights of the episode were seeing him unconscious at the bottom of the stairs, then laying on a stretcher. Those are the moments worth living for.

Indeed. Whenever there's a chance that Henry will die, I perk up. Henry is my least favorite character. Recasting him and making him an adult that they are now going to have the entire show revolve around does absolutely nothing for me. I have zero desire to watch Henry in any incarnation. This is particularly true since the writers said that they identify most with Henry and Regina. How much you want to bet that Adult!Henry shares a ton of characteristics with the showrunners? Instead of weird inappropriate self-insert moments due to Young!Henry's age, they can now go all out with the self-insert stuff.

[InsertWordHere]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Same.  And I don't really know.  I'm certain someone much more eloquent than I could explain it better, but I think it has to do with all the times the show has shown the 'villains' win (looking at you, Rumpel) or at least not really pay for their crimes (EQ) and get accepted by the 'heros' anyway(Regina) - so why should we bother to care when icons like Snow White and Prince Charming don't?

Exactly. I used to enjoy debating the merits of all the main three villains and their differing paths to redemption, but when someone can turn "good" on a dime, why does it really matter? I came to this realization sometime around the atrocious eggnapping plot. There's no there there with this show. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

This episode is yet another testament to one simple fact - if Henry is involved, there will be belief hocus-pocus that makes no sense and plot holes as far as the eye can see. I still hate him. The only highlights of the episode were seeing him unconscious at the bottom of the stairs, then laying on a stretcher. Those are the moments worth living for.

When Henry fell down the stairs, it reminded me of a quote I saw recently on Twitter, something along the lines of how some people are like Slinkies -- they're pretty much useless, but it's fun to watch when they fall down the stairs.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Instead of weird inappropriate self-insert moments due to Young!Henry's age, they can now go all out with the self-insert stuff.

You know it!

[Camera One]

Why is it only Rumbelle who gets the Disney music when they dance?  Watching the new movie FINALLY got the horrible Rumple/Belle dance out of my head and this episode had to subject me to it again.

[Rumsy4]

Quote

What did they do to this show that I am so disengaged when I used to be so intense about my feelings about it?

Shallow writing. Making characters act inconsistent and boring. Repetitive plots. There are no lasting consequences.  And as others said, villains getting away with everything.

[Delphi]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

 

At the end of the day, we all knew what their happy endings were and they could have happened any time. Other than with Zelena, you could have stopped the show at the end of S3 with the same outcomes.

I was actually talking to other Mr.  Delphi,  because I was venting about the show and he asked if I'd rather the show had ended sooner.   I thought about it and decided that I'd rather the show have ended with that.   There are some episodes I'd have missed in these three seasons,  I'd miss the CS wedding,  and some great moments.  I'd miss anything with Ariel.  I liked a lot of these past few seasons but the season 3 finale felt like...a finale.   It's not my ideal ending of Rumple ridding himself of the curse and finally choosing love and Emma finally having a birthday with an entire family that she loves, but I wouldn't have to watch constant character assassination. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Delphi

[InsertWordHere]

11 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Emma finally having a birthday with an entire family that she loves

I am still salty as hell that we never got this. According to the finale, Henry is now 14 (what? how?), so they had plenty of time, even if one of the birthdays fell within the missing year. No time for that! We've got to show Dark Curse #57 instead, this time with even fewer consequences!

[Curio]

Quote

What did they do to this show that I am so disengaged when I used to be so intense about my feelings about it?

 

 

They stopped writing character moments. They stopped giving us casual, realistic dialogue that reveals how these characters interact with each other on a normal basis. That wordless "happy endings" montage in the finale is the type of character-building scene that should have been sprinkled in every episode throughout the entire series. Instead, all we get is exposition, angst, plot, exposition, plot, explanation of a magical ritual, plot, etc. When you stop including character moments, you make the characters feel less human which makes it difficult for the audience to relate to them. When the characters don't feel real, you start to disengage and care less about what happens to them. At this point, it feels like we're watching wind-up dolls or Chuck E. Cheese animatronics on screen instead of interesting characters. Need a character to spout some pointless exposition? Crank the knob in the character's back, watch them say some trite line we've heard a thousand times before (because the dolls are only programmed to say a limited amount of lines), and when the gears in the doll eventually stop, the character disappears into the background and doesn't speak for the rest of the episode. When that happens over and over and over year after year...yeah, we're going to disengage.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Curio