S02.E14: Candy Morningstar

[storyskip]

I enjoyed the episode.  Not as strong as A Good Day to Die but a solid return.  Candy actually turned out to be a complete win for me, from her "act" but genuine niceness, the fact that even in her "act" she pointed out the mediator and then at the end, when we learned it all was an act, the way she and Lucifer interacted.  Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing more of her as Lucifer's friend, but we have enough characters.

All that said, for as much as I love this show, enjoy these actors and the characters, the Lucifer/Chloe romance just constantly falls flat for me.  At first it felt rushed, then it felt like both characters became caricatures of themselves when in 'romance' mode and just something about watching it makes me feel awkward.

I think part of it is, at the end of the day, even if he likes to wear the facade of having the emotional maturity of a teenager, Lucifer is still eons and eons old. He's been around since before time began.  Blessed birth or not, Chloe has been around for 35 years.  I feel like the show is trying to sell that he's going to settle into this nice, conventional, human normative relationship and ... what?  Join the PTA?  Paint the picket fence white on the weekends?

I mean, in a lot of ways if you look back at what Linda did, that makes sense.  Even though she was in LUST with him, not love, she recognized that it was not a good or healthy situation to be that attached/risk feelings getting into the mix, and she broke off that part of things. Hasn't stopped her from remaining a good friend and confidant.   

I'm wondering if the show would have the guts to go the route that Chloe's "romantic" feelings for Lucifer are actually "Dad" designed.  That of her own free will, Lucifer is her best friend but not TWU LUV.  Heck, I'd even get behind Chloe and Dan getting back romantically.  I know it's not the popular theory, but I feel like we've seen Dan make some genuine attempts to recognize his own poor behavior from the past, and to grow.

Maybe I'm an outlier in the fandom, but I would totally watch a show where Chloe and Dan got back together, Maze and Amenadiel continue to do their thing and Lucifer has Chloe as his best friend, with Dr. Linda there to be sassy at all of them when they're idiots.  Ella I go back and forth on.  I enjoy a lot of her quirks but her constant "shipping" anvil attitude is getting old.

I just wish this whole Lucifer/Chloe thing didn't feel so trope-ish.  "Oh you have a male lead and a female lead?  THEY MUST BE TWU LUV!"

[CheshireCat]

storyskip, yes to all of it! Another thing that I noticed - I didn't mind Lucifer and Candy, even the idea of Lucifer and Candy being together. They just worked together, probably because Lucifer didn't have to be different around her. He was just himself. He's never "just himself" when he's around Chloe. I know it's supposed to show us because Chloe is "the real deal", still, maybe they're taking it too far and actually make too many changes to Lucifer's personality so that he seems like a different person (who we don't like as much).

[Mabinogia]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 4:49 PM, tennisgurl said:

We only saw Maze, Doctor Linda, Amenadiel for a little bit each, but I liked what we saw, and it was good to check in on everyone.

At this point, I'd rather watch their show. I miss them the most. I've stopped watching but come here in the hopes things will go back to how they were. But with Mom still around and Chlosifer now being shipped by everyone on the show, I am not optimistic I'll get the show I liked back.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Thought: as a celestial being, can Lucifer perform a marriage ceremony? Can he declare them husband and wife? In that case, he would not have lied. It would have been a marriage before God, just not before the state.

Just the status of "celestial being" doesn't cut it.  Lucifer would need to be licensed to perform marriage ceremonies by the state of Nevada (where the "wedding" took place).  Which he might well be.  You never really know with him.

[theatremouse]

I think they did get married, in some whatever Las Vegas chapel, which is why he made the comment about divorces being expensive when he told her to keep the ring. I think he just didn't think much of doing it and then undoing it later. I also think he was intentionally being as erratic as possible to try to throw off anyone who might try to figure out what he was really up to, not just mum and not just Chloe. 

I don't think that his powers having no effect on Chloe necessarily does anything to the free-will-or-not question. He has his persuasion thing and we know it doesn't work on her, but his concern wasn't that he persuaded her to have feelings for him, his concern was that his father did. The show hasn't indicated whether other celestial being characters can manipulate her feelings or actions, just that Lucifer doesn't seem to be able to. So his concern that none of the stuff with Chloe is real seems, if not validated, not disproven either.

[johntfs]

Did anyone else notice that Candy didn't seem lovestruck or lustful for real around Lucifer?  Granted that neither Ella or Linda seem to manifest the carnal fascination thing, but I chalk that up to continued exposure to him.  If that the case Candy and Lucifer must have had a really intense could of weeks.  I also kind of wonder whether or not Candy was a private investigator or undercover cop or something.  Spotting the one guy in the photo when neither Chloe nor Lucifer did speaks to some skills that are a little higher than "I know faces and other parts" should realistically explain.

[CheshireCat]

3 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Did anyone else notice that Candy didn't seem lovestruck or lustful for real around Lucifer?  Granted that neither Ella or Linda seem to manifest the carnal fascination thing, but I chalk that up to continued exposure to him.  If that the case Candy and Lucifer must have had a really intense could of weeks.  I also kind of wonder whether or not Candy was a private investigator or undercover cop or something.  Spotting the one guy in the photo when neither Chloe nor Lucifer did speaks to some skills that are a little higher than "I know faces and other parts" should realistically explain.

I assumed that she really was an exotic dancer and that Lucifer hired her through the mobster at the beginning. Or bought her, or whatever.

 

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Just the status of "celestial being" doesn't cut it.  Lucifer would need to be licensed to perform marriage ceremonies by the state of Nevada (where the "wedding" took place).  Which he might well be.  You never really know with him.

Lucifer would have to be licensed for the marriage to be valid for the state. But would he have to be licensed in order for the marriage to be valid before God?

I was thinking along the lines of: in Germany, churches are not licensed by the state. You can go have a wedding in the church but the state would not recognize it, so legally, you would not be married. Only the church would consider you married (though that doesn't have an impact on anything) and you would be married before God. You can also call yourself being married; someone did perform vows and declare you husband and wife. So, would Lucifer, as a celestial being, have that standing? Could he declare them husband and wife? Sure, the state wouldn't recognize it but would the state have to in order for Lucifer to consider them to be married and not lie? As a celestial being, wouldn't it be more important for Lucifer to have a marriage which God would recognize than the state even if he's not on speaking terms with Dad?

That said, I did have the same thought as theatremouse, that they did get married because Lucifer was talking about how expensive divorces can be. I wondered briefly if maybe that meant that she's supposed to get their marriage annuled and send him the paperwork to sign.

[johntfs]

I'm pretty sure the marriage Lucifer got into specifically to screw with his family, especially God, his Dad, was probably not a marriage "before God."

[CheshireCat]

13 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I'm pretty sure the marriage Lucifer got into specifically to screw with his family, especially God, his Dad, was probably not a marriage "before God."

Or maybe especially because of Dad. For religious people, a marriage recognized by God is worth more than a marriage recognized by the state. So, wouldn't Lucifer be screwing with Dad even more if he got "joined in holy matrimony" only to play a game? Wouldn't he kind of stick it to Dad with a move like that as he was never serious about it? Wouldn't he maybe even feel like he used Dad just like Dad uses him, at least, a little bit?

[enoughcats]

5 hours ago, storyskip said:

 Join the PTA?  Paint the picket fence white on the weekends?

This is f'in inspirational. In a Luciferian way.

Lucifer joins a particularly micromanaging PTA.  And the what do you want questions will be interesting, and he will direct them to doing the better choices.  

And then he becomes a substitute teacher in a particularly badly behaved high school.......

And the picket fence....Tom Sawyer would come back just to take lessons in mind control.

[GreyBunny]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

I also kind of wonder whether or not Candy was a private investigator or undercover cop or something.  Spotting the one guy in the photo when neither Chloe nor Lucifer did speaks to some skills that are a little higher than "I know faces and other parts" should realistically explain.

I thought so too.  Linda was a phone sex operator to put herself through school, maybe Candy was a stripper who put herself through cop school or private investigator training or something.  It's shame she lasted only one ep, she was fun and I was hoping she'd stick around for a while longer.

Edited May 5, 2017 by GreyBunny

[dragonsbite]

On 5/1/2017 at 9:10 PM, gik910 said:

Lucifer's little smirk when he got mom talking about the flaming sword was everything. As was his performance of Eternal Flame.

He did a good job on "Eternal Flame."

And nicely done on the musical choices in this episode.  Not just The Bangles song, which clearly foreshadows Azrael's blade. But also the song at the end "Looking for Knives." They must have a blast matching music to the moments in the episodes.

[dragonsbite]

On 5/2/2017 at 2:27 PM, Maherjunkie said:

I love Tom Ellis' voice but for some reason he didn't sound right for that song.  (That doesn't mean I won't listen to it on YT a thousand times)

His voice didn't match the song. It's a bright song, and Belinda sings it at the front of her mouth to give it that bright sound. (think Julie Andrews) Tom speaks and sings from the back of his throat. So, while his tone and phrasing were good, his voice is not right for the song. Also, many of the notes are for a soprano (tenor) while he's more baritone (second soprano).  I'm not an expert on vocals: YMMV.

Edited May 5, 2017 by dragonsbite
grammar (because i'm a grammar fascist)

[enoughcats]

12 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

I'm not an expert on vocals:

Compared to me, you are.  Thanks for the insights.

[jhlipton]

Lucifer doesn't lie.  So he must have told Candy his plan -- "I'll 'marry' you (just to make it legit in case anyone checks) then 'unmarry' you once we're done.'  So a swift Vegas wedding (without any extra licensing worries or the like) would work just fine,

On 5/1/2017 at 10:11 PM, dippydee said:

I hope she makes Maze but new plates or her entire salary is going to be spent on replacing cutlery

Plasticware!

On 5/2/2017 at 8:32 AM, enoughcats said:

Could that be the story arc that they're saving for fall?

They have 4 stand-alone episodes before Season 3 starts in earnest.  "Lucy in Vegas" would work great for that.

On 5/4/2017 at 9:37 AM, Inquiry said:

I want some more substantial, damn it!

So does Maze!  [rim-shot!]

[ProudMary]

16 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

His voice didn't match the song. It's a bright song, and Belinda sings it at the front of her mouth to give it that bright sound. (think Julie Andrews) Tom speaks and sings from the back of his throat. So, while his tone and phrasing were good, his voice is not right for the song. Also, many of the notes are for a soprano (tenor) while he's more baritone (second soprano).  I'm not an expert on vocals: YMMV.

Susanna Hoffs of the Bangles sings it.   I think you may be mixing up your girl groups!  (Belinda Carlisle is the lead singer of the Go-Gos.)

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Susanna Hoffs of the Bangles sings it.   I think you may be mixing up your girl groups!  (Belinda Carlisle is the lead singer of the Go-Gos.)

Go, Go, Bangles!!!

[Arthur]

BTW, Candy is back in episode 22(?), the one set in Las Vegas

[dragonsbite]

On 5/5/2017 at 5:01 PM, ProudMary said:

Susanna Hoffs of the Bangles sings it.   I think you may be mixing up your girl groups!  (Belinda Carlisle is the lead singer of the Go-Gos.)

Thanks for the clarification!  Although I heard these bands on the radio in the 80s, I never bought their music. So I definitely can't distinguish among the band members.

[CheshireCat]

1 hour ago, Sonoma said:

I think once the show was renewed, the showrunners were able to pull back some on the Lucifer/Chloe "romance".  So I don't think there should be any worry about them actually getting together right now.  It looks like they have set it up to acknowledge his feelings for her, her feelings for him, but enough to keep them just friends for now and the shippers satisfied.  I'm a shipper, and I'm just fine with having them apart right now as long as they continue to keep the show as smart, darkly sweet, and funny as it is now.  

I don't remember where or when but Henderson said something along the lines of the show not going to the traditional route in regards to the relationship and by putting them together at this point, so I don't think this was about possible cancellation or renewal.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Like many posters, I really liked Maze being Maze and Candy being sweet, but not as empty as cotton candy.

I very much appreciated the direct accusation that Dad lied.  Right there, is proof that we're dealing with an alternate God and an alternate Satan.  The entire spiritual direction of the show depends on "Dad" not being all good and that Luci is right to call him out.  Fair enough.  I'm just glad it was explicitly acknowledged.

Now, what will be of great interest to me, is the point of having the power and how can Luci avoid it consuming him as the Ring did the Hobbits.  

[methodwriter85]

Oh, young Samantha. You deserved so much better on the Carrie Diaries.

Somehow I knew Candy was going to be more than meets the eye because she was being played by Lindsay Gort.

Edited May 22, 2017 by methodwriter85

[White Sheep]

I knew he go to vegas after LA.   Even wrote about it on Reddit. 

[ImTheCurse]

chloe's room is 104. i know this might extened for a conspiration theory but i want to belive that both lucifer and room 104 (the show) is connected.

any thoughts?

btw its season 2 episode 14

Edited August 9, 2017 by ImTheCurse

[emarasmoak]

I have re-watching this show and I have noticed something. In the scene that Lucifer looks into Chloe's phone too tease her about her musical tastes he finds it is "full of 90s jams, The Bangles N'Sync". And what does he do to prove what he's willing to do for their partnership? "rock a sweet 90s jam"... Eternal Flame from The Bangles. He pays attention. 

I love this show. Binge-watched it all recently and hoping season 4 is as good as 1-2!

[galaxychaser]

Chloe is jealous!!! Love it. Too bad Candy wasn’t permanent addition!

[Anela]

I'm watching this season now, and saw this last night. I liked Candy - especially with his mother.