S05.E09: IHOP

[Razzberry]

They really don't know Henry at all.  You'd think he had proposed dropping out of school and joining the circus by their reaction.  Oh the horror... 

 

It was great seeing Martha before she suicides.

 

Stan and Mrs. Gaad was another highlight

Edited May 3, 2017 by Razzberry

[DoubleUTeeEff]

7 hours ago, vb68 said:

I don't like Tuan and do not trust him for a second. He's hiding something . After Elizabeth noted he was lonely, I was fully expecting them to track him to a strip club or being with a hooker. Something to symbolize he is older than he looks.

In this episode, Elizabeth asked Philip if Tuan ever "talked about any girls." I wonder if "girls" means women or girls, like his schoolmates. How old is this guy?

This show makes me paranoid. I do think that Tuan's explanation is plausible but he could easily be lying as well. I hope they look into it, at least find out if his former foster brother actually has leukemia.

I have sympathy for Martha but she made her bed.  She actively spied and kept quiet about a murder.  She also had the chance to go to the FBI when she "escaped" (more like walked away) from Gabriel and didn't.  I think she was mostly covering for Clarke but I wonder if some of it was selfishness. Maybe she didn't want to own up to her own wrongdoing, her own culpability.  Either way, her life now seems especially lonely even for someone who felt herself to be a lonely single woman at one point. She is in a foreign country and can't fluently communicate with very many people. That has to be very tough. Still, she's got some spunk, telling Gabriel that he doesn't need to come back to visit.

The Henry story line is intriguing to me. I hope we get to meet Chris and her family. A letter of recommendation surely warrants a dinner invitation. Plus, it would help Henry make his case to Philip and Elizabeth. It's interesting that Elizabeth thinks it might be OK for Henry to go but Philip is against it. It's almost the opposite of their disagreement about Paige, where Elizabeth wants to keep Paige close, teach her her own (Elizabeth's) values and maybe even recruit her. Now it's Philip who doesn't want their kid to fall into another type of life.

[Tetraneutron]

13 hours ago, Mumbles said:

Henry going to Saint Edwards (aka Saint Paul's IRL) would resolve s lot of logistical problems for the gang, and he could get an in with all the elite that they may be able to exploit. Still, ideologically I can see why P&E would be Icked out by it on principle.

I've been saying for awhile that's what they're doing with Henry. Henry (unlike Paige) has always been extremely Western and capitalist. Starting from the first seasons where he snuck into Stan's house to play video games, tried to get Matthew to give him beer, was obsessed with pop culture, brats off to his parents when they ask him to do chores (unlike responsible good girl Paige) fights off a dangerous man with a bottle and likes expensive things and status.

The conflict in this show comes from Elizabeth as a Russian ideologue vs Elizabeth as a woman with a Western family and what that means. Philip is mentally checked out and just along out of loyalty to her at this point, but what does it mean for her that Henry is her complete opposite. It's taking the Paige storyline and upping the ante.

They turned Paige by manipulating her and everyone in her life (the Groovyhairs). What's their gameplan for Henry? Let him go to St. Fancypants and discover he hates it (Philip's suggestion)? Let him go so he has an in with the 1%? Force him to stay and try to make him into a completely different person open to communism? There are a million dramatic possibilities.

 

13 hours ago, Knuckles said:

i am still confused about Tuan...and exactly who he works for...maybe the writers could give some of us more feeble viewers a clue. I thought the Vietnamese, who had lent him to the KGB, but maybe I am wrong.

My understanding was he was sent by the Vietnamese version of the KGB as an adolescent to be fostered by the family in Seattle. He's been deep cover ever since, assuming different identities as the situation calls for it, like P and E.

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

If I had more time, I'd go find my posts about how Henry and Page should go to boarding schools.  I know I had one about Henry when it was revealed he was a math whiz, though, I thought it would be in CA. One down, one to go! lol Seriously, this frees them up to not have to make accommodations for Henry and makes it a more SPY Friendly home, but, they'll lose their regular contact with with Stan's house.

Didn't Claudia say in season 2 that the ultimate plan for the second-gen illegals program was Paige AND Henry become spies? Obviously they focus and Paige first because she's older and she forced the issue. But KGB would want both of them. And losing contact with Stan's house (which they wouldn't in the second place, P and E are good friends with him and they hang out all the time), would be nothing in comparison to gaining an in with the parents of St. Fancypants. Two Senators and a Nobel winner > Stan Beeman. If the show doesn't have a scene where Claudia tells them all the reasons Henry should go there the writers aren't being true to the characters.

2 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Things just keep getting stranger and stranger and it really bothers me that so many things get terminated without any explanation for the audience. I'd love to talk to the show runners and ask them, "Please, could you just knock it off,  would you please? I did not understand why Gabriel didn't ask Martha, "OK. I won't bother you again. But if you should ever wish to talk things over or allow me to introduce you to some people whose friendship you might enjoy, may I give you my address and phone number so that you can call me if you ever want to?

How could that possibly ever hurt either one of them?

Because Gabriel isn't Martha's social director and it would be insulting to Martha to act like that would solve anything. He problem isn't that she needs to join a book club or meet a nice man, the problem is she was sent against her will to a foreign country where she knows nothing and no one (a country that itself is extremely shitty and headed towards collapse), can't ever leave, can't ever contact her family and friends again, can't ever really be independent, is terrible. How is hanging out with the man that put her in that situation something she would want?

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

They really don't know Henry at all.  You'd think he had proposed dropping out of school and joining the circus by their reaction.  Oh the horror... 

 

Well, I suppose the writers didn't want P & E to appear too eager to push baby bird out of the nest.  lol  Plus, there would be some shock I suppose.  The money issue, which Henry explained away, plus there might be scrutiny of their family, if this is a super, duper highly exclusive institution.  Just how close are they going to inquire about Henry's roots?  I can see them being cautious.  But, I predict, it will sail through and Henry will be showered with love as he sent to safety, I mean boarding school for the duration of the series.  

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

I haven't read through the thread yet, but wanted to quickly jot down my thoughts.  This episode was the first one that I've enjoyed.  There was some actual movement and it kept my attention.  Elizabeth seems to be wavering at times, then she changes direction and gets back on her fanatical course.  Tuan isn't who she thinks (wants) him to be.  Deal with it.  Still, I was surprised by her attitude about Henry's desire to go away for school.  And Philip seems to have lost his sense of conviction as well.  He notices things, puts two and two together and then just freezes.  The best thing for Henry would be to get the hell out of dodge and it was ten times better having to deal with him and listen to his concerns than having to put up with that sad-sack, mealy-mouthed Paige.  But I see she's going to be back next week to put me into a coma.  Martha looks terrible (Gabriel, too, if truth be told...world-weary, beat down and defeated).  I'm not just talking about Martha's outward appearance, I'm talking about her soul and spirit.  Alison Wright is a wonderful actress and I did feel sorry for Martha, but not enough to be incapable of enjoying the punishment for her treason.  She understands everything now that she's living in hell, does she?  Dummy.  She should have woken up ages ago.  Loved the backstory and movement in Oleg's story.  Will Stan let Gaad's wife change his mind? I'm thinking yes.  I realize someone's got to do this kind of work, but it's a nasty, soul-rotting business.

Your post made me think about the phone call that E made to Pasha's mom. It seems kind of strange to me they had to feature the actress who plays his mother and show us her speaking into the phone. The entire scene could have been so easily handled just by showing E on the phone and her telling P what she said. Why did we need to see her mouth the words? Even better, E could have just told P in passing, "I called Pasha's mom to see if she knew where Tuan was but she didn't." Seems to me there was no need at all to show her or spend the time it took to watch her say that she didn't know where Tuan was. It just seems strange and somewhat wasteful to spend the time and the production costs to show the actress talking on the phone. I may be acting somewhat petty here. But does anyone else share my feeling that something strange was going on as shown by the decision to show us both sides of that telephone conversation instead of just having E mention the results in passing?  Is it completely unimportant? Or is there some reason why it was important to show us this part of the conversation? It's just puzzling me.

Edited May 3, 2017 by MissBluxom

[SunnyBeBe]

I wonder if Martha would consider Oleg a suitable date?  lol  I'm serious.  I know it might be a little soapish, but, it sure would be a hoot, wouldn't it?  I mean, they have some mutual friends like STAN! lol   Plus, Martha could get better housing and food.  Oh, maybe, not food, but, housing......Oleg is likely being careful about his grocery shopping about now. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[benteen]

Stan hiding behind Mrs. Gaad so he didn't have to make a decision on Oleg was a cowardly and disgusting moment for him.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, I suppose the writers didn't want P & E to appear too eager to push baby bird out of the nest.  lol  Plus, there would be some shock I suppose.  The money issue, which Henry explained away, plus there might be scrutiny of their family, if this is a super, duper highly exclusive institution.  Just how close are they going to inquire about Henry's roots?  I can see them being cautious.  But, I predict, it will sail through and Henry will be showered with love as he sent to safety, I mean boarding school for the duration of the series.  

I don't think Philip wants him to go at all--and no, I don't think a boarding school would be doing background checks on his parents. LOL! 

But of course there'd be shock. All of this is completely new for Henry. It's like Paige suddenly being totally into church. Even his teacher is surprised at the sudden change. 

Still, I find it weird that Elizabeth is so onboard. Is this one of those times where she's clueless and naive? She wants her kid going to a feeder school for Wall Street and Republicans? Or did she just give up on this kid? 

I thought Philip's reaction was very believable for the father he is--not the spy, but the man who grew up a very poor kid.

5 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

It just seems strange and somewhat wasteful to spend the time and the production costs to show the actress talking on the phone. I may be somewhat petty here. But does anyone else share my feeling that something strange was going on as shown by the decision to show us both sides of that telephone conversation instead of just having E mention the results in passing? 

I really don't see any reason to worry about the show's budget on this level. It's not like it approaches every episode based on spending the absolutely least money so they cut corners on phone conversations. When you do the phone conversation one-sided people notice. By showing the Morozov's we, the audience, see that Pasha and Tuan are not out together.

[tennisgurl]

I wonder if they were making a kind of comparison between Gaads wife saying that no one had ever come to talk to her or check in on her husbands post death affairs after he died, and Martha and her sad KGB sponsored life? Or even the reference to Nina, who tried to make up for spying on her government by spying for them, and she still got a bullet to the head? A greater theme of governments treating people who work for them or help them as easily disposable, and are quickly forgotten about when they aren't useful anymore? Maybe its foreshadowing the inevitable fate of P & E.

Also, on a shallow note, Oleg clearly got his looks from his mom.

[Erin9]

I don't think it's strange that E and P were shocked that Henry wanted to go to boarding school. I  don't think it reflects that they don't know him either. Henry's dedication to school is a very new thing.  And, really, how many kids want to go to boarding school- at least in the US? That is highly elite and expensive. Not the experience of most kids no matter how bright they are. I've known many people who went from public school to Ivy League. Unless Henry got a full scholarship, P and E would still have to spend a lot of money to put him through 4 years of it. Then there's college. It's really a rather outrageous request when I think about it. But it fits Henry. Henry is mostly about Henry. Typical kid. I like that he's ambitious, interested in school, but really- boarding school. I kinda want to laugh. 

I have my doubts he'll go though. What a waste of story potential if he leaves just as we're getting to the end. 

ETA- Philip's response makes sense to me. I'm surprised Elizabeth is kinda okay with it. Not sure why really. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Erin9

[SunnyBeBe]

If P & E really think about Henry's welfare, they would likely concede that Henry would be safer at boarding school.  I mean, do they really think that living in a house with nervous, secretive, risk taking people who live danger every day is good for Henry? I hope they approve his idea and that he is boarding school bound.  

[clb1016]

Here's what I don't get about the Tuan situation, in addition to not questioning him about his activities the previous night.  Three agents followed him to IHOP; did none of them stick around to see what he did there?  Did he actually just make a phone call, have a cup of coffee by himself and then leave?  Or did he meet with someone?  Or possibly leave something in a dead drop (like the bathroom)?  Was it really enough just to know his destination?  Didn't anyone have eyes on him when he was inside, or do a search after he left?

Other random thoughts:  as someone above pointed out, there's no reason to write Henry off the show since there's only one more season and he generally does not appear in every episode anyway.  (Although I do have a feeling that the polarized politics of the two kids will be an important factor in the final season, but what do I know?)

Why do people keep referring to Stan as being selfish for going to Gaad's widow?  Stan is being anything but selfish.  He's trying to keep the FBI/CIA from using Oleg in a way that would put his life at great risk.  He was looking for affirmation in his desire to leave Oleg to live his life in peace.  Instead he basically got "leave your emotions out of it."

Watching two terrific actors like Langella and Wright is always a joy, but that scene made me think that if one of them does commit suicide, it will be Gabriel not Martha.  Or perhaps both will.

[Tetraneutron]

5 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

But does anyone else share my feeling that something strange was going on as shown by the decision to show us both sides of that telephone conversation instead of just having E mention the results in passing?  Is it completely unimportant? Or is there some reason why it was important to show us this part of the conversation? It's just puzzling me.

Nah. First, it's more interesting to watch movement than one person talking into a phone. Cardinal rule of TV and film. And it's not like that actress would be expensive or hard to book. Besides, the way they filmed it enforced the image of Pasha as a sad pathetic loner, alone in his bedroom without even his only friend, only talking to Mommy. I expect that destroying the Mozorovs will be this season's destroying the YoungHee family, so the audience needs to see that happening, see the Mozorovs as much as possible so it has an impact.

I loved the Martha scene and I also hope we never see her again. The show made its point. Her life is bleak and depressing a brutal. And the lighting and costuming people did such a great job, too, and of course so did Alison Wright. She looked almost like a different person, so much older and beaten down.

For much of its run the show has avoiding showing the consequences of what P and E do. They murder/disappear people and it resolves all their problems. (Never mind that in the real world the machinery of the US state would STILL be trying to find Amador's killers). You think there'll be any fallout from murdering a high-ranking lab worker for the US government? They get a deadly virus and the only people who die of exposure are people for whom it doesn't matter to the plot, or are all the way in Afghanistan. Etc. But this season is all about consequences. Martha and her horrible life, the YoungHees and their horrible lives, the Burovs and their horrible lives, because despite their high ranks they're still Soviets, the Paige situation will certainly come to a head. The show is reversing direction and being much more explicit about who destructive P and E are, and how much Philip, at least, wants out.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Erin9 said:

But it fits Henry. Henry is mostly about Henry. Typical kid. I like that he's ambitious, interested in school, but really- boarding school. I kinda want to laugh. 

Exactly! I think if you look at Henry's lines over the years they're very often about Henry being about Henry in a very upfront, kid way. Like he's not a brat, he just wants what he wants and feels it's perfectly reasonable to expect he'll get it. When he doesn't want anything from people, or wants something else, he'll happily to ignore them. This is the kid who openly expressed disappointed at not getting the video game system he wanted for his birthday, then blew off his parents to break into the neighbor's house to play. A lot of his resentment over the greater attention Paige gets has come out as indignation that he's not given his due.

Plus he's always had different stuff he's been into--space, magic, Eddie Murphy, bro-time with Stan--who also had no clue about all this. (Stan, ironically, the guy that many credit with raising Henry.) His parents are surprised because it's genuinely new.

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

If P & E really think about Henry's welfare, they would likely concede that Henry would be safer at boarding school.  I mean, do they really think that living in a house with nervous, secretive, risk taking people who live danger every day is good for Henry? I hope they approve his idea and that he is boarding school bound.  

Not necessarily, I wouldn't think. They're his parents and they love him. It's natural they'd want him close. 

2 minutes ago, clb1016 said:

Why do people keep referring to Stan as being selfish for going to Gaad's widow?  Stan is being anything but selfish.  He's trying to keep the FBI/CIA from using Oleg in a way that would put his life at great risk.  He was looking for affirmation in his desire to leave Oleg to live his life in peace.  Instead he basically got "leave your emotions out of it."

 

The selfishness is about Stan going to this man's widow for that affirmation. Why put this question in her lap at all? Especially when he clearly knows what he wants to do and just wants someone to share the responsibility with? 

[Umbelina]

The Russian scenes were stellar, all of them.  Oleg and his family.  Oleg and the KGB.  Oleg and the prisoner.  Martha and Gabe.

They made this episode.

I also liked the Tuan scenes.  I've always been interested in Tuan, and feel he gets short changed, especially as probably the most interesting new character they've added.  Attacking him like that, and Elizabeth looked ready to end him then and there.  Much like Oleg, I hope Tuan gets out.  Tuan's chances are probably better.

I was a bit surprised that Martha wouldn't be at least a little bit interested in speaking to someone she actually knows from back home, even if only slightly.  I also wonder if she really "knows everything" including that Clark and his sister are married with kids.  I doubt that part, but maybe some sympathetic KGB person told her "everything?"  Or maybe she's just guessed, or maybe she didn't mean that at all.  Obviously she's furious about being used though, so that was enough reason to reject Gabe every coming again.

SO!  "More powerful than the KGB!"  That has to mean the mob, I don't think that prisoner's wife will be alive for much longer, and his son's prospects are not good either.  I think my mob guess from a while ago is true.  The only other option is some people at the minister levels.  That episode SHOULD get that Russian prisoner an emmy nod.  He was outstanding.  I learned a bit about how the mob in Russia works from a friend...it makes the mafia look cuddly. 

If the boarding school is just a way to write Henry out?  Boo.  If it's more?  Yay.  I'm sure Claudia will have to be told all of this, including Henry's sudden aptitude with math and brainy report cards.  She probably already knows the latter.  I'd guess Claudia would want Henry at the school, but will she also want him "brought in" before that?  Because that could blow right the hell up.

Deliciously.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Umbelina

[Mumbles]

Quote

Watching two terrific actors like Langella and Wright is always a joy, but that scene made me think that if one of them does commit suicide, it will be Gabriel not Martha.  Or perhaps both will.

I kinda thought that too re Gabriel. Because this meeting was probably done at Gabriel's own initiative. Looks to me like he has a conscience and this has been gnawing at him and he was hoping for some happy or at least hopeful answers, but Martha to her credit was not going to let him off so easy. 

I recall in an earlier episode that Claudia had told the unwitting wife or GF of a compromised illegal that they would send her to Cuba to have a nice, sunny life and then just had her shot. That Martha survived is probably because Gabriel was in charge and not Claudia. Point being, Gabriel seems like a real human being, from giving baby Paige a stuffed animal, to his fondness for Lincoln, to his concern for Martha, as useless as it is.

[Tetraneutron]

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

If P & E really think about Henry's welfare, they would likely concede that Henry would be safer at boarding school.  I mean, do they really think that living in a house with nervous, secretive, risk taking people who live danger every day is good for Henry? I hope they approve his idea and that he is boarding school bound.  

You think just because he's in boarding school he'd be safe from the KGB? It would be the opposite. The Center would be working him hard, trying to co-opt him and he wouldn't even have his parents to protect him. Paige had E and (mostly) P butting the brakes on and making sure the Center didn't go too far (they stopped them from killing Pastor Tim). At the boarding school, the Center would go all-out to turn and recruit Henry and wouldn't care how damaged he was. Probably get a Tuan type posing as a fellow student and work him like Tuan is working Pasha.

If we assume that P and E care about their children's welfare (and since E sees her kids an extension of her own identity and a tool in defeating the West, and is manipulating Paige no differently than she did Lisa or Don, that's pretty unlikely) the best place for him is with them. In therapy. After they've defected and are under witness protection. But then we wouldn't be watching the show.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Or maybe she's just guessed, or maybe she didn't mean that at all.  Obviously she's furious about being used though, so that was enough reason to reject Gabe every coming again.

I didn't think she meant she knew he had a family, just that she understood that Clark was doing his job by marrying her etc. I don't think anybody she'd talk to would have any specific information about the spy she was sleeping with. Nobody except Gabriel now, who would lie.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I didn't think she meant she knew he had a family, just that she understood that Clark was doing his job by marrying her etc. I don't think anybody she'd talk to would have any specific information about the spy she was sleeping with. Nobody except Gabriel now, who would lie.

Depends on who handles her really.  Gabe certainly isn't the only person in the KGB who knows Elizabeth and Philip's situation. Plenty of people would know.  As I said thought, I doubt it.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Umbelina

[Ina123]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I was hoping that Henry would announce to his parents that he is gay.  P & E really don't know what is going on with Henry, and given the way that this series is written, they act like they don't much care. 

It's 1984. Coming out is a relatively recent action, especially for a teenager.

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

If Philip hadn't checked in with Kimmy, the information about hemorrhagic fever being used on mujahideen wouldn't have known, and that's another disillusionment for the Jennings.

BTW, the return to this part of the story revealed something more ridiculous about the Jenningses' overloaded schedules.  Phillip has to listen to hours of taped material each week?  How does he fit that in with his trips to Kansas?

[Chaos Theory]

That'll teach P&E to ignore Henry.  He is rebelling and becoming.....an American.  And a preppy at that.  

The way P&E described the boarding school was in a way they could understand it a rich person's orphanage.  I think the idea of a school like Henry described is so far beyond their understanding that it scares them.  It is so very American.

[Ellaria]

49 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

If Philip hadn't checked in with Kimmy, the information about hemorrhagic fever being used on mujahideen wouldn't have known, and that's another disillusionment for the Jennings.

Yeah...I get it I just didn't need to actually see Kimmy again.

[SunnyBeBe]

I sort of felt like Gabriel might have been trying to establish some relationship with Martha.  I know he says that he has family in Russia, but, really?  Do they even remember him? Would he have much to talk about with them?  I could see him adopting a fatherly position with Martha.  Too bad that's not in the cards.  I do hope their paths will cross one day and that he is in a position to bring her some good fortune or offer protection if she needs it.  

I think what we have seen so far, is that returning to Russia is just not that great. William didn't want to go.   Claudia had a disappointing visit.  Nina....well, not a good return.  Oleg.....not so good. Martha is struggling.   Gabriel isn't working out that great either.  We can only guess about Mischa, but, it doesn't look good.  Still, I suppose returning to Russia is better than being killed.  It just seems to me that avoiding Russia might be a good plan. 

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

That'll teach P&E to ignore Henry.  He is rebelling and becoming.....an American.  And a preppy at that.  

The way P&E described the boarding school was in a way they could understand it a rich person's orphanage.  I think the idea of a school like Henry described is so far beyond their understanding that it scares them.  It is so very American.

Yet both of them actually went to a Russian version of that.  KGB training school.

Good food, excellent education, nice clothing, hobnobbing with the elite and powerful.

[Erin9]

15 minutes ago, clb1016 said:

 

Why do people keep referring to Stan as being selfish for going to Gaad's widow?  Stan is being anything but selfish.  He's trying to keep the FBI/CIA from using Oleg in a way that would put his life at great risk.  He was looking for affirmation in his desire to leave Oleg to live his life in peace.  Instead he basically got "leave your emotions out of it."

Stan couldn't have been more selfish if he'd tried. He didn't need to see Linh. He can decide for himself whether investigating Gaad's death is worth squeezing Oleg. Because for some dumb reason Stan gets to call the shots for the CIA and FBI. He came to see her because he wanted her to say: no biggie. Gaad's dead. I don't need  to know who did it or why. No one needs to pay....because someone she's never heard of should be more important than the death of her husband. He put her in the position of validating what he really wants to do- nothing. And that was so disgusting. 

This is AFTER she'd noted that NO ONE had bothered to visit post funeral. Including Stan. He came solely to hear her say- Oleg is a nice guy; so frank's death should just be left univestigated and forgotten. Oh well. Ugh. I'm glad she told him otherwise. He earned it. 

It's amazing Stan has a girlfriend or any friends at all given the way he treats people. He's a loner for a reason. 

I find it amusing that in an episode where Henry references his parents- both of them- driving him to activities, that Stan can't be bothered to drive his kid to look at schools. I thought he wanted a relationship with Matthew. I never have gotten the impression Stan put much effort into Matthew besides being the fun dad. Kinda like he's the fun uncle to Henry. 

[Chaos Theory]

I am not sure if I would use the word "selfish".  

Maybe a better word would be apprehensive.  He actually grew to like Oleg.  And like Oleg is still bitter about what happened to Nina. So using Oleg with a peice of information when Oleg "did the right thing" sits wrong with Stan.  While everyone else is telling him to screw over someone who might actually be an ally if soft played instead of hard played.

i wouldn't call that selfish.  I think he went to the wife out of some misplaced yearning to speak with Gaad a man he admired.  I think Stan genuinely wanted to know what Gaad would want him to do.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Bannon]

Allison Wright's scene made the episode worth watching. The less said about the writing of Stan's character the better. Hopefully, we won't be reminded of the Kimmie arc again. The dialogue when Henry makes his big reveal was clunky, and the actors did as best they could. Don't have an opinion about the Henry goes to boarding school angle until they reveal more.  Russell and Rhys continue to carry the show.

[dubbel zout]

34 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I learned a bit about how the mob in Russia works from a friend...it makes the mafia look cuddly. 

Most of what I learned about the Russian mob I learned from watching a two-part Law & Order.

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, Tetraneutron said:

Because Gabriel isn't Martha's social director and it would be insulting to Martha to act like that would solve anything. He problem isn't that she needs to join a book club or meet a nice man, the problem is she was sent against her will to a foreign country where she knows nothing and no one (a country that itself is extremely shitty and headed towards collapse), can't ever leave, can't ever contact her family and friends again, can't ever really be independent, is terrible. How is hanging out with the man that put her in that situation something she would want?

Which is why, if it was me, I would have gone to a lawyer and negotiated my surrender. At the very least, I'd see my family. Maybe behind glass  but that's better than never again.

My ultimate resolution for Martha would be after the fall of the USSR and, in the spirit of glasnost she comes home, is debriefed and let go with time served in Russia.

[Erin9]

5 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I am not sure if I would use the word "selfish".  

Maybe a better word would be apprehensive.  He actually grew to like Oleg.  And like Oleg is still bitter about what happened to Nina. So using Oleg with a peice of information when Oleg "did the right thing" sits wrong with Stan.  While everyone else is telling him to screw over someone who might actually be an ally of soft platen instead of hard played.

i wouldn't call that selfish.  I think he went to the wife out of some misplaced yearning to speak with Gaad a man he admired.  I think Stan genuinely wanted to know what Gaad would want him to do.

I have no problem with Stan wanting to protect Oleg. I get it. Everything else- from his methods to talking to Linh, I don't like. 

I totally disagree that Stan had any actual desire to hear what Gaad wanted. He clearly tried to lead Linh in the direction he wanted her to go- leave Oleg alone- but she wouldn't agree. He wanted her to validate what he wanted to do. Plus- the very last thing Gaad said to Stan before leaving was something to the effect that the KGB needed to be dealt with ruthlessly. That fit his MO all along imo anyway. He was never overly concerned with Nina. He had no soft feelings for the enemy. The original kidnapping plan- of Arkady- was his. Gaad absolutely would have wanted revenge- or some justice if you will. 

Stan was incredibly, unbelievably selfish going to Linh like that. It was ALL about him. It wasn't about her or Gaad. He'd never even bothered to visit. It wasn't even really about Oleg. It was about her validating Stan's feelings on the right thing to do. He wanted her to make it okay to sit on it and do nothing. 

[Umbelina]

Henry is not gay.  For crying out loud, remember his soft core porn stash under the floorboards?  All women.  Remember his crush on Mrs. Beeman and later on his teacher?

If he was gay, there wouldn't have been naked and semi-naked women in those photos.

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

But does anyone else share my feeling that something strange was going on as shown by the decision to show us both sides of that telephone conversation instead of just having E mention the results in passing?  Is it completely unimportant? Or is there some reason why it was important to show us this part of the conversation? It's just puzzling me.

I didn't wonder about the conversation being part of the scene, but I did think that if it was me making that call, I would have ended it with, "See you tomorrow". I wondered why she came home. She was spending the night because she was going shopping with her the next day.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Phillip has to listen to hours of taped material each week?  How does he fit that in with his trips to Kansas?

Walkman on the plane? Like books on tape in the car?

6 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

The way P&E described the boarding school was in a way they could understand it a rich person's orphanage.  I think the idea of a school like Henry described is so far beyond their understanding that it scares them.  It is so very American.

I wouldn't call it American so much as rich. Rich people send their kids to cushy private schools (or sometimes private schools that are kind of Spartan) where they make connections. Playing fields of Eton and all that. And Russia used to be a monarchy with an aristocracy that probably also sent their kids to those types of places. I don't know if that was a thing during Soviet times for families that did have money, but I wouldn't be surprised. Plenty of Western parents who didn't grow up that way would be wary of them too. I remember Paul McCartney talking about that once, saying how he didn't send his son to Eton.

7 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I find it amusing that in an episode where Henry references his parents- both of them- driving him to activities, that Stan can't be bothered to drive his kid to look at schools. I thought he wanted a relationship with Matthew. I never have gotten the impression Stan put much effort into Matthew besides being the fun dad. Kinda like he's the fun uncle to Henry. 

And yet he's often credited with being a great parent...to Henry. Honestly, he's the definition of how it's easier not to be the parent. All the stuff Philip and Elizabeth do is taken for granted or happens off-screen. The Stan scenes are more unusual, so they get screentime. He's never had a difficult conversation with Henry in his life because he doesn't have to! 

19 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

i wouldn't call that selfish.  I think he went to the wife out of some misplaced yearning to speak with Gaad a man he admired.  I think Stan genuinely wanted to know what Gaad would want him to do.

Except he told his wife what Gaad would want him to do. He was just disappointed when she disagreed.

13 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

From what we see on screen (and really, that is all we can go by) I just don't see that much concern about Henry at all.  They are far more concerned about Paige, than Henry. 

Well, yes, of course they do. Because Paige is the one who's in trouble. Henry's fine, so why would they be concerned about him? Henry's living the good life!

14 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

They didn't know he supposedly had a girlfriend, and they didn't know he was doing well in school.  What do they actually know about the kid, other than he likes playing video games?

Yes they did know these things! They discussed the fact that he probably liked a girl and wondered who he was talking to on the phone, and later discussed his crush on Chris, who is not yet his girlfriend. Chris was the girl Henry said wasn't his girlfriend in this ep, because they knew that he liked her. They knew he was doing well in school after he started doing well in school--this is a recent thing, and they knew about it soon after it manifested. Henry spent a large period of his life being a kid who liked to a) play video games and b) watch movies with Stan. There was not some huge other part of his life they didn't know about. 

17 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

It was such a relief to have last night's episode Paige free. 

Agreed. It was really refreshing.

7 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

My ultimate resolution for Martha would be after the fall of the USSR and, in the spirit of glasnost she comes home, is debriefed and let go with time served in Russia.

I don't get why she'd be allowed home or that her time in Russia would be considered time served. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Stan may be grasping at straws and trying to sort through the right thing to do, but, even he sees that getting to the people who killed Gaad is very unlikely and that what will happen is that Oleg is going to be killed or go to prison and it will be for nothing.  I agree.  Still, if a few more KGB members are taken out, then, I suppose it's a successful mission.  (And hey, I'm no Stan fan. lol)  I just don't see anything good going for Oleg.  He can't survive helping the CIA or FBI.  I don't believe that would work. Not, with his background, current position, etc.

OH, what was the name that the prisoner gave Oleg in the cell last night? 

Edited May 3, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Ina123]

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, on a shallow note, Oleg clearly got his looks from his mom.

And the cleft in his chin from Dad, although Dad has a very weak chin.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Ina123

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Tuan's story confused me. He was traveling by bus to PA solely to make a phone call to his sick brother in Seattle. Then, he takes the bus back. He was presumably making the phone call from another state to avoid detection. As it turns out, he didn't entirely avoid detection - they were watching him. And on a previous night, he didn't come home at all. He didn't offer an explanation for the night that he didn't come home, did he?

 

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I suppose we are supposed to believe that Tuan takes the bus nightly to PA to make the call and then returns home in the middle of the night.  If we assume that it's 2 hours away, add time for bus stops, it could take him about 6 hours to get it accomplished.  If he left right after school, (add an hour for hanging out with new school buddies), he should be able to be back much earlier than 3:00 a.m., imo.  Maybe, someone who knows more about that bus trip can chime in. 

Well, some nights P or E are supposed to be "home" from their jobs and in the house. We know they haven't been around much lately, but if he's got sense Tuan would not risk going on that long journey every night, just in case one of them did turn up unexpectedly as Elizabeth did. Harrisburg, PA, by bus, to make an "out of state" call? He could get on the DC Metro and ride to a stop in Maryland, find a nearby payphone, and get home in about 2 hours roundtrip. Is he going to Harrisburg every time or different locations by a long bus ride? Or does he only risk calling once every few weeks? If so, indeed, where was he the night before?

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Depends on who handles her really.  Gabe certainly isn't the only person in the KGB who knows Elizabeth and Philip's situation. Plenty of people would know.  As I said thought, I doubt it.

I think those people who did know about P&E would be above the level of those who are helping Martha adjust to her new life. And it would likely be breaking many rules to give her that sort of information. As has been noted, she lived in a "nice" apartment and they have intentions to use her as a translator. There's no reason anyone would pointblank tell her just how badly she'd been lied to and manipulated. Gabriel was trying to be kind in lying that "Clark" had wanted to send her a letter. I think that's when Martha really turned against him, probably because she now knows that Clark never, ever loved her and the entire relationship was fake from Day One, it had all been part of his job. What she doesn't know is that Philip actually came to care about her and tried to protect her in the end. I think she now just sees Clark/Philip, Elizabeth, and Gabriel as monsters.

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Most of what I learned about the Russian mob I learned from watching a two-part Law & Order.

For me it's the Viggo Mortenson film "Eastern Promises". ;-)

Edited May 3, 2017 by RedHawk

[jww]

I am puzzled; who else is following/watching Tuan? Is he a FBI suspect or not trusted by KGB ?  Why would he think he was being followed?   Is the Seattle family trying to find him so  that  is  the reason he is attempting to conceal where he is calling from ?  It is my understanding he was a Vietnamese boat person child  refugee who then grew up as a foster child in a Seattle family and may will be an US citizen by now.    Then he left/ ran away from  Seattle and  adopted a new identity, became a Viet intelligent agent and as a cover was  "adopted"  by new parents -P+E.    Does he know P+E  are in disguise as airline pilot/stewardes or was that just for the Russian family?  If I remember correctly Elizabeth was not in disguise when she went to check on him and neither were in disguise when they confronted him when he returned from Pa. So he stayed out past curfew,  I think he is a little old to be grounded or spanked.  To his credit his bed was made so tight it would make a Marine DI proud.

[RedHawk]

We saw Philip talking to Kimmy (thanks, birthday cake, for showing me how to spell her name!) about his son and then we get the big scene with Henry. It hasn't been that long (six months in show time?) since we saw Philip and Henry playing hockey in the driveway. (Of course, Philip dropped the hockey stick like a hot potato when Elizabeth and Paige showed up, leaving Henry agape.) Philip has also been shown playing on the computer with Henry, wasn't it in an episode this season? My point is, Philip's strongest reaction to me seemed that he was stunned Henry wanted to leave the family ("it looks like an expensive orphanage"), and then for the second time we've seen Philip somewhat angry that his kid has no concept of all that he has that Philip did not.

Fatherless Philip realizes he's become disconnected from his own son, the one he did get to raise, and on top of that he has one son who doesn't even know him and possibly never will. Now he's facing losing Henry and all the questions suddenly arise about whether they want to or actually can let him go off, how the KGB might react, etc. Not for nothing did we get the mention of Matthew being taken around to colleges as a senior. More example that P&E's kids are at a point in their lives where they would normally be thinking of their own education choices and career paths, not being hit with the news that there's a future path already expected of them.

Edited May 3, 2017 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, jww said:

I am puzzled; who else is following/watching Tuan? Is he a FBI suspect or not trusted by KGB ?  Why would he think he was being followed?   Is the Seattle family trying to find him so  that  is  the reason he is attempting to conceal where he is calling from ?  It is my understanding he was a Vietnamese boat person child  refugee who then grew up as a foster child in a Seattle family and may will be an US citizen by now.    Then he left/ ran away from  Seattle and  adopted a new identity, became a Viet intelligent agent and as a cover was  "adopted"  by new parents -P+E.    Does he know P+E  are in disguise as airline pilot/stewardes or was that just for the Russian family?  If I remember correctly Elizabeth was not in disguise when she went to check on him and neither were in disguise when they confronted him when he returned from Pa. So he stayed out past curfew,  I think he is a little old to be grounded or spanked.  To his credit his bed was made so tight it would make a Marine DI proud.

Tuan didn't know who was following him--it was P&E as it turns out, but as an undercover agent he figures anybody could be. P&E are the same way. The Seattle family is not trying to find him. He was disguising where he was calling from so that there would be no ties back to the fake family with P&E either way.

Tuan, it seems, was already a Vietnamese agent when he was sent to the US and placed with a foster family. When he got the signal to do a job, he left and started this job with P&E. He knows they're not really a pilot and an airline stewardess, that they are in disguise, and that they are KGB. Elizabeth was in disguise when she went to check on him--there's no reason for Tuan to see their real faces. They were both in disguise when they confronted him when he returned. They were worried he was double-crossing them somehow or doing something risky. They have a million reasons to worry about him being up to something.

5 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Of course, Philip dropped the hockey stick like a hot potato when Elizabeth and Paige showed up, leaving Henry aga

That was actually both Philip and Elizabeth playing hockey with Henry and dropping it when Paige showed up. Later it was Philip playing videogames with Henry when Mom and Paige got home. :-)

5 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

My point is, Philip's strongest reaction to me seemed that he was stunned Henry wanted to leave the family ("it looks like an expensive orphanage"), and then for the second time we've seen Philip somewhat angry that his kid has no concept of all that he has that Philip did not.

And who is the one kid Philip actually connected with this season? Tuan. Especially on the subject of the lack of food and fathers.

I really do hope they go somewhere good with this. We've had so much of Elizabeth relating to Paige as somebody who didn't grow up with the expectations and hardships she had, and her wanting Paige to know her and understand her. Philip doesn't have the same issues with ideology, but he's got a lot more when it comes to this sort of thing. His kid has things he lacked and frankly doesn't notice because why would he?

[RedHawk]

14 minutes ago, jww said:

I am puzzled; who else is following/watching Tuan? Is he a FBI suspect or not trusted by KGB ?  Why would he think he was being followed?   Is the Seattle family trying to find him so  that  is  the reason he is attempting to conceal where he is calling from ?  It is my understanding he was a Vietnamese boat person child  refugee who then grew up as a foster child in a Seattle family and may will be an US citizen by now.    Then he left/ ran away from  Seattle and  adopted a new identity, became a Viet intelligent agent and as a cover was  "adopted"  by new parents -P+E.    Does he know P+E  are in disguise as airline pilot/stewardes or was that just for the Russian family?  If I remember correctly Elizabeth was not in disguise when she went to check on him and neither were in disguise when they confronted him when he returned from Pa. So he stayed out past curfew,  I think he is a little old to be grounded or spanked.  To his credit his bed was made so tight it would make a Marine DI proud.

I guess there's some concern that the FBI agents watching the Russian family's house might start to keep an eye on Tuan, considering he's over there sometimes and has become Pasha's only friend. Tuan may think his own people would randomly check on him as well. He definitely knows P&E are using the airline jobs as covers and the names they're using are not their real names.

Elizabeth was in her "Tuan's mom" disguise when she dropped by the house the first night. Good point and very interesting, however, that P&E went straight into the house still in the disguises they used for the PA trip when they confronted Tuan. That was risky, wasn't it, even if it was 3 a.m.? What if someone had seen that strange man and woman, who didn't appear to be Tuan's "mom and dad" but fit their general size and height, entering the house at that hour? Or am I mis-remembering this and they did change into their Eckerts (is that their name) disguises?

Edited May 3, 2017 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Good point and very interesting, however, that P&E went straight into the house still in the disguises they used for the PA trip when they confronted Tuan. That was risky, wasn't it, even if it was 3 a.m.? What if someone had seen that strange man and woman, who didn't appear to be Tuan's "mom and dad" but fit their general size and height, entering the house at that hour? 

No, they're dressed as Brad and Dee when they confront him.

[tennisgurl]

I thought the theme of the season was going to be about food, but now I'm sure the theme is actually about parent/child relationships. This has always been a show about family life, underneath the guise of a spy show, but this season has taken that concept and taken it beyond the Jennings family.

We have P & E and their complicated relationships with their two kids, Philip and his memories of his father, and finding out the truth about him, their relationship with their father figure Gabe, which ends when he leaves, Mischa trying to find his father, Oleg finding out the dark secrets his parents have, P & E having a pretend kid and trying to understand him, Pasha and his issues with his parents, even in this episode, we had Kimmy talking about being closer to her father, and Martha asking about her parents. I'm not sure where they're going with the theme yet, and it makes for a less action packed season, but I still think its really interesting.

Speaking of, I suspect that at the end of the season, Oleg isn't going to get the Nina treatment (shot in the back of the head and unceremoniously dropped immediately into a garbage bag) due to his fathers position, and he will instead get the "lighter" sentence of being shipped off to prison or a gulag for the rest of his life, or at least for a considerable amount of time, sharing his mothers fate. Maybe in a continuation of the parent/child theme of the season. I really don't want that to happen, because I love Oleg and want good things for him, but I just don't see his story ending happily. Of course, I also thought Martha would be dead ages ago, so what do I know?

[RedHawk]

Just now, sistermagpie said:

No, they're dressed as Brad and Dee when they confront him.

Thanks! There were a lot of different looks last night and I was kinda tired when watching. I thought Philip didn't do much to make himself look younger when he was with Kimmy. He looked so tired and old, way too old for her to be attracted to him anymore. I almost expected her to say, "Hey, I realized that you're not actually, like, 27. You're older than that, aren't you?"

[sistermagpie]

Just now, RedHawk said:

I almost expected her to say, "Hey, I realized that you're not actually, like, 27. You're older than that, aren't you?"

Yes, when he said, "One day I'll get married and have kids..." I almost expected her to be like "How long you planning to wait, exactly? Because you're 40."

[RedHawk]

Just now, sistermagpie said:

Yes, when he said, "One day I'll get married and have kids..." I almost expected her to be like "How long you planning to wait, exactly? Because you're 40."

You got it!

Edited May 3, 2017 by RedHawk

[dubbel zout]

40 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Most of what I learned about the Russian mob I learned from watching a two-part Law & Order.

For me it's the Viggo Mortenson film "Eastern Promises". ;-)

Oooh, I forgot about that one.

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I almost expected her to be like "How long you planning to wait, exactly? Because you're 40."

LOL. When you're 17, 27 and 40 don't seem that far apart.

Edited May 3, 2017 by dubbel zout

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

2 hours ago, GussieK said:

Phillip has to listen to hours of taped material each week?  How does he fit that in with his trips to Kansas?

Walkman on the plane? Like books on tape in the car?

Again, my thoughts exactly! Maybe Basement KGB Lady converts the tapes to cassette so he can listen on his Walkman on the plane to Topeka. Did you see how he was propping himself up on the washing machine as the taped conversations droned on? No need for Ambien in that household. The man must never get more than 3 hours sleep a night.

ETA: Seeing Elizabeth sit up watching late-night infomercials (circa 1984!) my first thought was, lady, get some much-needed shut-eye while you're on that cozy couch. You'll hear Tuan if he comes in. Can't believe she missed a good opportunity for a little sleep.

Edited May 3, 2017 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

Speaking of hot potatoes, it looked like Martha was topping her baked potato with grilled onions and maybe mushrooms? Then when Gabriel came in and apologized for interrupting her dinner, she said, "It's just a snack" in what I heard as a defensive tone. Was she embarrassed that he might think that was all she had for dinner? WAS it all she had for dinner, not because they don't give her enough for food, but maybe because a baked potato is almost all that she's found palatable in even the better grocery store she has access to? Perhaps also it's familiar and thus comforting.