S05.E19: Dangerous Liaisons

[calliope1975]

11 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I did appreciate how difficult it was for Oliver to make any argument to Felicity because he doesn't have a leg to stand on. This started in 510 and that continued in this ep. He's appealing to her emotions, instead of trying to argue with logic. 

He was also using his quiet, whisper-y voice with her which is super sexy. Umm, just me? I'll show myself out.

While I understand Digg and Oliver's POV, I found it a bit paternalistic when they were talking about how the world has turned upside down with Lyla and Felicity going dark. 1 - Have either one of you met Lyla before? 2 - It's really difficult for me to give Oliver any credibility when he invited an international uber criminal organization to town, what, one episode ago? And then reneged on his agreement to the Bratva thus making a hugely powerful enemy. He can have a seat. 

I'll forgive everything if he professes his undying love for Felicity and how he can't function without her. I'm easy. 

[Hiveminder]

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I will say that I took petty pleasure in both Dinah and Curtis being dismissed for the night with thanks from their employer.  Maybe it's not supposed to come across that way, but I sort of love that is how Oliver treats the B team.

It's a crazy idea in real life, but I'm not positive that Alena wasn't serious about it being  a real thing.  I just don't think that Cayden James shared it with Felicity and instead used her trust in Alena and Helix to sabotage the Arrow Bunker so that they couldn't come after him.  Team Arrow was more a threat than Argus to finding him clearly.  

As for Felicity trusting Helix, what reason did she have for NOT trusting them?  They were pretty open with their quid pro quo and while that isn't the most noble way of handling things, it was pretty straight forward and in the past, they'd always followed through on their promises.  

If Alena thinks it's real, then she's dumb too. There's exaggerating what technology can do in movies and TV, and there's coming up with the dumbest thing you can think of because you wrote yourself into a corner and can't figure out a semi-realistic way to do what you need to do. If the writers truly intend for us to believe that Helix has an actual, working, world spanning heartbeat tracker that works even with no recording, or measurement, or whatever of the heartbeat it's supposed to be tracking, then they've done the latter. If they're saying that the tracker was just a trick to get Felicity to help them and then blow her up, then they've written Felicity to be truly stupid for falling for it. Either way, I'm insulted. 

My problem with Felicity trusting Helix is that she's trusted them from the start. It's an underground hacking organization that has boatloads of private information in its hands and has asked her to do some shady things. She should have been far more wary of this organization from the start. Felicity is smarter than this. 

[BkWurm1]

17 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

 

34 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I will say that I took petty pleasure in both Dinah and Curtis being dismissed for the night with thanks from their employer.  Maybe it's not supposed to come across that way, but I sort of love that is how Oliver treats the B team.

It's a crazy idea in real life, but I'm not positive that Alena wasn't serious about it being  a real thing.  I just don't think that Cayden James shared it with Felicity and instead used her trust in Alena and Helix to sabotage the Arrow Bunker so that they couldn't come after him.  Team Arrow was more a threat than Argus to finding him clearly.  

As for Felicity trusting Helix, what reason did she have for NOT trusting them?  They were pretty open with their quid pro quo and while that isn't the most noble way of handling things, it was pretty straight forward and in the past, they'd always followed through on their promises.  

If Alena thinks it's real, then she's dumb too. There's exaggerating what technology can do in movies and TV, and there's coming up with the dumbest thing you can think of because you wrote yourself into a corner and can't figure out a semi-realistic way to do what you need to do. If the writers truly intend for us to believe that Helix has an actual, working, world spanning heartbeat tracker that works even with no recording, or measurement, or whatever of the heartbeat it's supposed to be tracking, then they've done the latter. If they're saying that the tracker was just a trick to get Felicity to help them and then blow her up, then they've written Felicity to be truly stupid for falling for it. Either way, I'm insulted.

 

I agree there isn't anything that could do this in the real world, but I'm ok with pretending someone COULD in this fictional world do it (if they had a recording of his heartbeat at least- he was in the hospital recently, I could buy they had a recording for "reasons") And really, my reason is the dreaded "because comics" answer.  

Superman was know to be able to recognize Lois Lane's heartbeat in the comics.  So James' program, it's pretty close to something I've already accepted as true in the DC verse. It's just a lot less romantic to recognize the heart beat of a super villain.   

Edited April 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[ComicFan777]

Talking about tracking people based on their heartbeats, there's apparently some new tech EP sensors that have been tested that can remotely detect heartbeats from a distance and send the data over the internet:
http://www.livescience.com/6693-sensor-monitors-heartbeat-distance.html
These sensors can detect changes in the electric field caused by a heartbeat without contact, so it is getting closer to reality that you could track someone's heartbeat. If the Helix hackers were able to set up a wide network of these sensors or hack other devices to behave like these sensors combined with Felicity's facial recognition program, they would be able to make a database logging everyone's heartbeat data.   From there, they could track people based on this data.

[catrox14]

I've decided that Paul Blackthorne is paired with the weaker actors on the show or the characters that are not doing well with the audience (exception is Thea) because he elevates the material and the other actors. So I think he's there to help prop Wild Dong. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Guest]

MG is answering questions on tumblr and he said that Chase was actually in the bunker at the end there. So  I'm assuming it wasn't Helix.

Wait. I don't have to spoiler alert this, do I?

Edited April 27, 2017 by Guest
clarification

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

MG is answering questions on tumblr and he said that Chase was actually in the bunker at the end there so it wasn't Helix.

Whoops, my bad. Guess at least that means Helix and Felicity didn't necessarily part on bad terms.

[Hiveminder]

10 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I agree there isn't anything that could do this in the real world, but I'm ok with pretending someone COULD in this fictional world do it (if they had a recording of his heartbeat at least- he was in the hospital recently, I could buy they had a recording for "reasons") And really, my reason is the dreaded "because comics" answer.  

Superman was know to be able to recognize Lois Lane's heartbeat in the comics.  So James' program, it's pretty close to something I've already accepted as true in the DC verse. It's just a lot less romantic to recognize the heart beat of a super villain.   

I just can't buy it. I thought Superman recognizing Lois's heartbeat was pretty unbelievable too. Not because I doubt that Superman is capable of hearing and recognizing a sound as quiet as a heartbeat, but because there's no way to differentiate one heartbeat from billions of others, no matter how good your hearing is. There's only so many sounds a heart can make. 

Healthy human hearts have to perform within certain boundaries. They can't pump to fast or too slow, and there's just not enough room in their to make each person's heartbeat its own distinct rhythm. Even adding in heart conditions and abnormal, there just aren't enough possible variations to a heartbeat that doesn't sound exactly the same as thousands of others.  

In order for this biometric tracker to work they would have to change actual human physiology for the entire human race. Which they haven't done. The average man on the street in the Flarrowverse is no different, physically, than the average real world person. 

And even if they made up some nonsense to get around that. How exactly does this thing work. Forget about how it would get a recording of Chase's heartbeat to use as a starting point. How does it hear/sense heartbeats in order to search through them and find Chase's? Is it hacking into cellphone s around the world and somehow boosting their microphones enough to sense heartbeats? Is it hacking into satellites and then reprogramming those satellites to listen to heartbeats (from space!)? That little USB Felicity plugged in? Yeah. No. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

MG is answering questions on tumblr and he said that Chase was actually in the bunker at the end there so it wasn't Helix.

I'm confused

So Chase was in the Bunker, but Helix wasn't tracking him but the EMP device destroyed the computers and it was just a fake out thing to confuse Team Arrow?

I don't get it....??

[Hiveminder]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm confused

So Chase was in the Bunker, but Helix wasn't tracking him but the EMP device destroyed the computers and it was just a fake out thing to confuse Team Arrow?

I don't get it....??

And he somehow managed to make Helix's USB blow up right in front of Oliver and Felicity just as it found him?  Whaaat?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm confused

So Chase was in the Bunker, but Helix wasn't tracking him but the EMP device destroyed the computers and it was just a fake out thing to confuse Team Arrow?

I don't get it....??

Sorry, I've fixed my post. I'm assuming it wasn't Helix who played Felicity and destroyed her computers. All MG said was that Chase was in the bunker. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Guest

[statsgirl]

I took it as Chase actually being in the bunker, and bugging it, so that as soon as Felicity realized he was actually there, he blew things up. He's ten steps ahead of everyone.

Felicity used to be a  hacktivist herself, she inspired Alena.  It's only natural she would trust  Helix, they're her kind of people.  She's more likely to trust them than ARGUS.

Edited April 27, 2017 by statsgirl

[calliope1975]

10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

MG is answering questions on tumblr and he said that Chase was actually in the bunker at the end there. So it wasn't Helix.

Well, I thought it was clear what was happening in that scene. Guess I was wrong. Writing fail. 

So who set off the EMP? Chase? Just had that waiting for when a biometric heart monitor was coded to find him, he'd be ready? /rme 

Whatever, clearly Chase is a shipper just like Ra's, so thanks for

Spoiler

trapping my OTP and forcing them to work out their differences next week. Additional kudos for the sexy times flashback.

You are the villain I deserve. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Hiveminder said:

And he somehow managed to make Helix's USB blow up right in front of Oliver and Felicity just as it found him?  Whaaat?

I don't have any issues with the fictional tech at work in this episode. I just didn't understand the sequence of events.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Well, I thought it was clear what was happening in that scene. Guess I was wrong. Writing fail. 

So who set off the EMP? Chase? Just had that waiting for when a biometric heart monitor was coded to find him, he'd be ready? /rme 

IDK. When I watched the episode I thought it was Helix who set off the EMP and that Chase wasn't actually in the bunker. Now that MG says that he was, I'm assuming he set off the EMP. But I could be wrong, haha.

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

They didn't track anyone's heartbeat because you can't track heartbeats.  It's a preposterous idea, and I simply refuse to believe it.   I'm incredibly insulted on Felicity's behalf that the writers would make her actually believe that. It's dumb, and it makes her dumb and desperate. In fact, I don't believe that in character Felicity would fall for that anymore than I believe that in character Oliver would have kept William a secret from Felicity even after Malcolm knew about him. 

This fucking show. 

[Hiveminder]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't have any issues with the fictional tech at work in this episode. I just didn't understand the sequence of events.

The sequence of events is actually what I'm questioning in that comment. Are we supposed to believe he set the explosion off, and if so how? We saw something happening with it right before it exploded so did he sneak up there while Olicity were talking two feet away and do something to it? 

[catrox14]

It actually works for me that Chase would have inside help at either Helix or at least one person to help him. 

Chase has been able to get people to do things for him, like convincing Evelyn to pretend he broke her neck just to fuck with Oliver's mind.  Thus I don't have much trouble thinking he could get someone at Helix to help him use Cayden James or that he know James and wants him out of the black site; set up the USB stick to block and destabilize Felicity via EMP;  and he's crazy enough to hide in the Bunker to make Felicity believe he was elsewhere just to be all "SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKERS!" 

But maybe I've got it all backasswards and I'm giving Adrian too much credit. 

[Hiveminder]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

I still refuse to believe Helix tracked down Chase's heartbeat. It's just not possible. I'll believe that Caydon James or whatever his name is rigged the USB to pretend to track Chase to the bunker that he already knew Chase was in or to track some tracker that Chase was carrying around for just this purpose, but I will not believe that they can track a specific individual's heartbeat. 

[statsgirl]

I still don't think that Chase is working with James.  It just seems too convoluted.

The idea that you can track an indiviual heartbeat is ridiculous but I'm willing to accept it in a verse where time travel and metas and aliens are SOP.

Edited April 27, 2017 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

@ComicFan777

found this great bit of info on tracking heartbeats..And I like @ComicFan777's additional theory on how it could work in Arrow's fictional advanced tech.

 

33 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Talking about tracking people based on their heartbeats, there's apparently some new tech EP sensors that have been tested that can remotely detect heartbeats from a distance and send the data over the internet:
http://www.livescience.com/6693-sensor-monitors-heartbeat-distance.html
These sensors can detect changes in the electric field caused by a heartbeat without contact, so it is getting closer to reality that you could track someone's heartbeat. If the Helix hackers were able to set up a wide network of these sensors or hack other devices to behave like these sensors combined with Felicity's facial recognition program, they would be able to make a database logging everyone's heartbeat data.   From there, they could track people based on this data.

[ComicFan777]

Quote

Healthy human hearts have to perform within certain boundaries. They can't pump to fast or too slow, and there's just not enough room in their to make each person's heartbeat its own distinct rhythm. Even adding in heart conditions and abnormal, there just aren't enough possible variations to a heartbeat that doesn't sound exactly the same as thousands of others.

Generally, people think of heartbeats by way of sound.  However, the measurement of heartbeat patterns (i.e. ECG) are examined using electrical signals that make the heart pump.  Like fingerprints, each person's heartbeat pattern is unique to each person's physiology and pathology because of the size and shape of your heart and the orientation of your valves.  Each person's physiology results in a unique shape of electrical impulse for their heartbeat.  Even if your heart beats faster or slower, the shape of the waves in the electrical signal would remain the same (just the duration of the waves change).  There have been studies of heartbeats being used a unique biometric identifier for passwords and security.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

While watching the scene with the dead ARGUS guy I kept thinking how Tinah didn't need to be there. That scene could have been Lyla, Digg and Oliver and would have been exactly the same. Would have even kickstarted the "fight" between Digg and Lyla faster if Digg was the one to object to ARGUS hiding evidence.

That's both a plus and a minus.  It's a minus because they're not really needed but if the show is determined to add them in at least they're in the background right now.

2 hours ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

I was worried given someone new was writing the episode but perhaps she went back and watched a few older episodes because this made a good use of the relationships and history.  Two things that have been sorely lacking this season. 

Felicity and Oliver's talk at the loft where she asked him to let her help carry his burden struck me as her asking Oliver to include her in the way he didn't with the kid.  So, I get her anger at the end and her call back to the lie in that moment.

I thought this was one of the best episodes of the season.  If the show was like this all the time, I'd be watchig a lot more.

I like the idea that Felicity was talking about Oliver and William but I think you're giving them too much credit.

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't know.  I think Diggle was looking a bit judgmental despite claiming he wasn't judging.  How is keeping a man prisoner worse than just killing him like he did with Andy?  Neither are right but he was pretty quick to say Lyla was turning into someone he didn't know.  She seemed pretty much like herself to me.  

Lyla was typical ARGUS Lyla, but more fixed in her opinion.

Andy lied, sold drugs and had killed people.  We still don't know what Cayden James did to cause Lyla to lock him up and torture him without a trial.

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I will say that I took petty pleasure in both Dinah and Curtis being dismissed for the night with thanks from their employer.  Maybe it's not supposed to come across that way, but I sort of love that is how Oliver treats the B team.

He treats them like they are the B team, unlike how Laurel and even Thea got treated.  I can live with them like this, but I know it won't last.

I'm listening to the radio as I type this and just heart that there will be something that will allow fans to monitor the physiological responses of their favourite athletes so you can track Tom Brady's heart as he plays. So maybe being able to track Chase's heartbeat isn't that crazy after all.

[lemotomato]

Everyone scoffed at Curtis's chip helping Felicity walk again, but it turns out that there's something similar to that being worked on in real life. Personally, I don't expect the show to be realistic about tech when we've dealt with nanobots, the ATOM suit running on dwarf star energy, Curtis's floating balls, parachute arrows, etc. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Curtis's floating balls,

Curtis' floating BLUE balls....which will never not be funny

[Hiveminder]

11 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Generally, people think of heartbeats by way of sound.  However, the measurement of heartbeat patterns (i.e. ECG) are examined using electrical signals that make the heart pump.  Like fingerprints, each person's heartbeat pattern is unique to each person's physiology and pathology because of the size and shape of your heart and the orientation of your valves.  Each person's physiology results in a unique shape of electrical impulse for their heartbeat.  Even if your heart beats faster or slower, the shape of the waves in the electrical signal would remain the same (just the duration of the waves change).  There have been studies of heartbeats being used a unique biometric identifier for passwords and security.

I'm prepared to acknowledge that it's possible to differentiate individual heartbeats, but that doesn't explain how the tracker actually sensed all of those heartbeats and found Chase's. 

I don't know why this is a sticking point for me. My suspension of disbelief is usually very strong, but apparently Arrow has found my limit. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Hiveminder

[statsgirl]

Maybe Chase has long QT syndrome or some other very identifiable marker combination.

I find it harder to believe that any program can hear how the heart is functioning over long distances than that it can identify a particular heartbeat.

Edited April 27, 2017 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

I'm surprised that MG answered my question and so fast.   Pity he proved I was completely wrong. Lol. 

 So Helix didn't betray Felicity.  That totally changes things.  They can debate on if she should have let James go or if he was too big a huge threat but Alena only ditched her, she didn't double cross her.  They came through on their promise and Felicity did find Chase.  It's just Chase found them a lot sooner, lol.

So does that make Felicity right in working with Helix?  Or at least, does that not make her clearly wrong?  I feel like she was more right to work with Helix than Oliver was with the Bratva or Malcolm.  I'm really curious what the take away from this episode is supposed to be.  Maybe the ambiguity is the answer. 

[wonderwall]

nvm @lemotomato covered it haha

Edited April 27, 2017 by wonderwall

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm surprised that MG answered my question and so fast.   Pity he proved I was completely wrong. Lol. 

 So Helix didn't betray Felicity.  That totally changes things.  They can debate on if she should have let James go or if he was too big a huge threat but Alena only ditched her, she didn't double cross her.  They came through on their promise and Felicity did find Chase.  It's just Chase found them a lot sooner, lol.

So does that make Felicity right in working with Helix?  Or at least, does that not make her clearly wrong?  I feel like she was more right to work with Helix than Oliver was with the Bratva or Malcolm.  I'm really curious what the take away from this episode is supposed to be.  Maybe the ambiguity is the answer. 

Since I'm pretty sure Felicity is supposed to be the one in the wrong, I'm not sure if we can rule out a Helix betrayal yet. I think it's possible that Chase had nothing to do with the EMP and that was all Helix. 

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Since I'm pretty sure Felicity is supposed to be the one in the wrong, I'm not sure if we can rule out a Helix betrayal yet. I think it's possible that Chase had nothing to do with the EMP and that was all Helix. 

Helix could have given her the tech to track down Chase and booby trapped the flash drive with the EMP to cover their tracks. It's not a straight up betrayal. 

[bijoux]

I'm confused. There's all this talk about trackers and not about how Oliver trying to talk Felicity out of aligning with Helix turned into a lovey dovey "this is why I fell in love with you" thing. Oh, my God.

The underpinnings of that scene are really great. I didn't feel like it was simply a matter of Oliver putting Felicity on the pedestal, but entirely about him putting her in this position because of his actions. And Felicity is there, all this is where we are now, doesn't much matter how we got here. So in my eyes it reflected something elemental in both their characters - Oliver reflects on the past, often times way too much, and Felicity pushes forward, even if it can turn out to be detrimental.

The Rene subplot really dragged the pace of the episode, but it's always got to be something. While I think he's super lame for not going to see his damn kid, I'll say that PB was excellent during the hugging scene and the kid playing the daughter is actually good. Better than some adults that have been on this show. Still don't think she should be on the show with Rene being a vigilante, although one taking an unexplained breather in this episode. Maybe Lance can babysit. He's always had a soft spot for daughters.

Who is the killed woman brought up in this episode? Is she supposed to be someone important? I get that Oliver needed to be put in a tight spot, but the barrage of how come you didn't know this guy was a crazy psycho serial killer coming from the councilman and the reporters was ridiculous. Why would a mayor be able to spot that? 

[BkWurm1]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It's very exciting to have him actually reply to you! (But I may be biased since I'm in the group that thought Chase was there.)

I think Helix was supposed to be the counterpart of ARGUS, an organization that is determined they are doing the right thing but with very sketchy methods.

Chase, on the other hand, is outright psychotic.

I was SOOO certain I understood what had happened, but I've been wrong before so I figured I'd give him a shot since he's been in an answering mood. I'll also take unearned credit/blame for his current answering spree since my question kicked off.  Hee.  I know at least to always start the question with lots of praise, lol.  

I think you are right about Helix being the opposite of the government sanctioned ARGUS. I didn't see that before.

I was so sure that Felicity was going to be proven wrong in dealing with Helix it never occurred to me that she it wouldn't blow up in her face.  It did, in the sense that she and the team were on opposite sides, but she wasn't wrong that Helix would lead her to finding Chase.  And that's huge for me.  

I've been expecting to argue the "but she had no reason til the end that Helix couldn't be trusted" and now I have, Helix WAS trustworthy even if they were doing sketchy things.  

5 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Helix could have given her the tech to track down Chase and booby trapped the flash drive with the EMP to cover their tracks. It's not a straight up betrayal. 

I guess it's possible that MG was doing that lawyer thing since he didn't specifically repeat blowing up the computers, but in my question I presented it as did this one scenario happen vs this other scenario happen, and in my book, he chose door number two, so I'm currently understanding it as confirmation that Chase was the one behind the explosion.  I feel he'd be more inclined to say, wait and see about the explosion if it was more complicated than Chase doing it.  HOW he did it I have no idea.  

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Helix could have given her the tech to track down Chase and booby trapped the flash drive with the EMP to cover their tracks. It's not a straight up betrayal. 

Oh yeah. I definitely think they gave her the tech but it's also possible they were responsible for the EMP. It's half a betrayal! 

[BkWurm1]

13 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Since I'm pretty sure Felicity is supposed to be the one in the wrong, I'm not sure if we can rule out a Helix betrayal yet. I think it's possible that Chase had nothing to do with the EMP and that was all Helix. 

I'm not sure that either were supposed to be clearly in the wrong about THIS choice.  

[bijoux]

Even with Chase actually being in the bunker, I don't trust Helix as far as I can throw them. For one, Alena got over killing a person awfully easily and then proceeded to get guns for hire with a smile on her face. Plus, she armored that thing back up to shoot at Dig. I can't imagine Felicity being thrilled about it when she finds out.

[BkWurm1]

6 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I'm confused. There's all this talk about trackers and not about how Oliver trying to talk Felicity out of aligning with Helix turned into a lovey dovey "this is why I fell in love with you" thing. Oh, my God.

You are clearly correct. Priorities have not been in the correct order, lol. 

Quote

The underpinnings of that scene are really great. I didn't feel like it was simply a matter of Oliver putting Felicity on the pedestal, but entirely about him putting her in this position because of his actions. And Felicity is there, all this is where we are now, doesn't much matter how we got here. So in my eyes it reflected something elemental in both their characters - Oliver reflects on the past, often times way too much, and Felicity pushes forward, even if it can turn out to be detrimental.

YES!!  I loved that it seems he's position on her actions are less about judging her choice than him trying to save her in part because he thinks he is unsaveable and needs to protect her from becoming him.  NEEDS.  She asked him to let her carry the burden and he CAN'T.  He doesn't later say it's because she was wrong, but because he's worried. And I think that worry is his fear about what Chase made him believe about himself.  It's such juicy characterization.  

Quote

The Rene subplot really dragged the pace of the episode, but it's always got to be something. While I think he's super lame for not going to see his damn kid, I'll say that PB was excellent during the hugging scene and the kid playing the daughter is actually good. Better than some adults that have been on this show. Still don't think she should be on the show with Rene being a vigilante, although one taking an unexplained breather in this episode. Maybe Lance can babysit. He's always had a soft spot for daughters.

I really don't know why I'm supposed to root for this non self starter.  He passed out cause of his drinking and she got burned.  But again, even after he stopped drinking, he doesn't even go see her? And this is after her mother is murdered. I could maybe get him thinking he shouldn't be in charge of taking care of her, but that was one forgiving kid, not even bringing up him basically abandoning her.  That's horrible.  

Quote

Who is the killed woman brought up in this episode? Is she supposed to be someone important? I get that Oliver needed to be put in a tight spot, but the barrage of how come you didn't know this guy was a crazy psycho serial killer coming from the councilman and the reporters was ridiculous. Why would a mayor be able to spot that? 

Yeah, they over did it with the press and the councilman, putting all the blame on Oliver.  It's not like he even hired Chase.  Wish they'd brought up that Chase killed his wife, not the GA.  They also overdid it with the loved ones seeing Quentin.  I get it was just a way to transition to Rene's stuff but it's really awkward to have someone that upset only to know we're probably never going to see him again.  Did we see him before?  I felt like I was suppose to know who he was.  

[BkWurm1]

9 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Even with Chase actually being in the bunker, I don't trust Helix as far as I can throw them. For one, Alena got over killing a person awfully easily and then proceeded to get guns for hire with a smile on her face. Plus, she armored that thing back up to shoot at Dig. I can't imagine Felicity being thrilled about it when she finds out.

What Alena did was really IMO the first time that Felicity had major red flags to run from.  And if she hadn't traded Chase for James, I don't see Felicity having been really comfortable around her again.  But before this episode, Alena hadn't acted all fine with being murdery.  If her accidentally killing someone (and I do believe it was an accident since she contracted skilled help next time) didn't alert us that Alena will soon be a full blown bad guy, her eagerness to take the gun proved it.  She's just too casual about people dying if they get in her way.  

And when Alena turned the guns on Diggle, that was my line being crossed.  Maybe though if Dig had brought the tranqs instead of the real bullets (sorry about all the leg shots silent hired gun guys) then he would have just knocked her out before he was in danger.   Same with Oliver.  A bunch of knockout darts would have been really handy there, wouldn't it.  

[Mellowyellow]

@BkWurm1 I'm so glad you asked that question because I was dreading that Felicity would come off as foolish if it wasn't Chase. Now I'm going to enjoy this ep even more when I watch it tonight

*huggles chicken*

[Proteus]

Who was the dead woman that the man who was talking to Renee and Quentin was talking about? Did we see Chase kill that person?

[lemotomato]

She was one of Prometheus's victims in 506, part of his "Throwing Star Killer" spree.

Edited April 27, 2017 by lemotomato

[Proteus]

12 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

She was one of Prometheus's victims in 506, part of his "Throwing Star Killer" spree.

Thanks a lot.

[EmilyBettFan]

Goodness how I love this episode!

[AudienceofOne]

My main takeaway from this episode is that there is something apparently called "a line". I know this because the male characters spent the entire episode lecturing the female characters on this "line" and how crossing it makes you "go dark". This "line" is notable for being something that apparently doesn't apply to any of the male characters.

Or maybe I've been traumatised from watching too much Flash and am oversensitive to this kind of thing.

And just, just when Felicity finally told Oliver to STFU after everything he's done the last four years, the place blows up basically re-enforcing his opinion on the matter. I'm not saying Felicity wasn't being naive trusting Helix or even that she was wrong to unquestioningly hand them access to everything they asked for. But Oliver constantly makes piss poor decisions and Felicity backs his play every time. I was 100% Team Felicity, even though I knew she was wrong to be working with Helix.

The fact they kept 'Cayden James' hooded makes me think he's Felicity's father. Although, would he try to kill his daughter? Not sure.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I really, really likes this episode. This Helix/Felicity storyline has to come back next season..with the boss in play as well it has so much potential.

The Olicity scenes were great. So intense. The actors bring out the best in each other, really great work. My favorite was the dialogue in the loft. They are both self sacrificing idiots. (I say this with love :) )

I hope they don't break Dig and Lyla up. It would be stupid because they bring an interesting dynamic and also they would later find out that what they mistook for chemistry was the actress trying to be sexy like she does in every scene and the actor not being weirded out.

I know we are supposed to feel for wild puppy but he got drunk while watching his kid whose mom just died, then abandoned her so why should I want him to get her back? It was also cruel how they brought her to see him when they didn't even know if he wanted or could keep her. That poor girl..

[GirlvsTV]

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

My main takeaway from this episode is that there is something apparently called "a line". I know this because the male characters spent the entire episode lecturing the female characters on this "line" and how crossing it makes you "go dark". This "line" is notable for being something that apparently doesn't apply to any of the male characters.

Or maybe I've been traumatised from watching too much Flash and am oversensitive to this kind of thing.

And just, just when Felicity finally told Oliver to STFU after everything he's done the last four years, the place blows up basically re-enforcing his opinion on the matter. I'm not saying Felicity wasn't being naive trusting Helix or even that she was wrong to unquestioningly hand them access to everything they asked for. But Oliver constantly makes piss poor decisions and Felicity backs his play every time. I was 100% Team Felicity, even though I knew she was wrong to be working with Helix.

The fact they kept 'Cayden James' hooded makes me think he's Felicity's father. Although, would he try to kill his daughter? Not sure.

Every single bit of this. While I can appreciate this episode was a huge improvement in writing, I can't help but feel both Oliver and Diggle had no ground whatsoever to stand on with Felicity and Lyla.

I haven't rewatched it, but on my first viewing of the loft scene I thought it seemed like Oliver was taking a situation that was about Felicity and her choices and making it all about HIM. His actions led to Chase which led Felicity to the point she is at, so instead of further reflection/discussion on why Felicity was willing to go this far we had her give Oliver a speech about taking his 'burdens' because he was sadz. Lol, okay show.

Also, I was genuinely unmoved by Felicity's speech to him in that scene. Hard to reconcile that version of Oliver with the guy we've recently seen kill an innocent person and experience no consequences from making such a terrible mistake. Not to mention he later had knowledge of people covering up his crime because he is mayor. Ugh.

I have really enjoyed Helix and Alena, so I do hope the explosion was all Chase related and Felicity wasn't double crossed.

And on a totally shallow note, is it just me or does Stephen's hair look weird? Is it too long? 

[Midnight Lullaby]

10 minutes ago, GirlvsTV said:

 

I haven't rewatched it, but on my first viewing of the loft scene I thought it seemed like Oliver was taking a situation that was about Felicity and her choices and making it all about HIM. His actions led to Chase which led Felicity to the point she is at, so instead of further reflection/discussion on why Felicity was willing to go this far we had her give Oliver a speech about taking his 'burdens' because he was sadz. Lol, okay show.

Also, I was genuinely unmoved by Felicity's speech to him in that scene. Hard to reconcile that version of Oliver with the guy we've recently seen kill an innocent person and experience no consequences from making such a terrible mistake. Not to mention he later had knowledge of people covering up his crime because he is mayor. Ugh.

 

I think the point he was making was that doing whatever it takes can have terrible consequences. What he did in season 1 with the list created Chase that is a huge threat so he was telling her not to act like he did because even if doing whatever it takes seems right to her now she could end up regretting it. He basically gave her the usual "find another way" speech Felicity always gives him.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Morrigan2575]

Huh. I went to sleep with one understanding of events and woke up to a totally different world. So Chase was in the bunker and presumably set off the EMP. That's not what i expected.

A few nitpicks from this episode I'm not digging the Mayor storyline at all, they're actually so bad at it with that press conference and the way the reporters treated Oliver. Plus who asks the mayor for investigation updates? That's a question for the Police Chief.  Arrow should stay far away from politics, court rooms and business because they screw all of them up.

Regarding Team Arrow/Argus vs Team Felicity/Helix I don't think we we're supposed to view it in absolutes of right and wrong. I thought the writers showed both were right/wrong. Diggle questioning Lyla about due process and keeping an "innocent" man prisoner. Felicity questioning Alena (Elana?) Over her willingness to kill to get Caren. Oliver wondering if working with Helix was the right move all along? Etc

The one point I will give to Felicity is that while she ended up choosing Helix and going against TA, she never lied to them about it. She basically said here's the play back me up and, when they refused she told them I'm doing it anyway.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

11 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Plus who asks the mayor for investigation updates? That's a question for the Police Chief.  Arrow should stay far away from politics, court rooms and business because they screw all of them up.

The NYC press corps. But it's usually a signal to the mayor to step aside and let the NYPD chief respond with updates. I agree, though, Arrow should stay far away from those, plus journalism. Thinking of Susan and the press scrum last night gives me the heebie-jeebies. That's not how it works, dumbasses!

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

The NYC press corps. But it's usually a signal to the mayor to step aside and let the NYPD chief respond with updates. I agree, though, Arrow should stay far away from those, plus journalism. Thinking of Susan and the press scrum last night gives me the heebie-jeebies. That's not how it works, dumbasses!

Oh yeah I'm not saying that questions like that don't come up but usually it's with the Police Chief there, which means the question is really for them.  There was no Police Chief at this press conference, which was another stupid thing. That's like in S3 when they had Ray, LL, Capt. Lance and the Mayor giving a press briefing about The Arrow.