S12.E19: The Future

[rue721]

In case anybody else is interested (lol), the Impala actually should have 3-point seat belts in the front seat, and seat belts of some kind for all seats. Standard No. 208 - Occupant Crash Protection was mandated for cars model year 1968 and after:

Quote

Passenger Cars (Effective 1-1-68)
Lap or lap and shoulder seat belt assemblies for each designated seating position. Except in convertibles, lap and shoulder seat belt assemblies are required in each front outboard seating position.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Maybe they were just trying to decide which freeway to take, The Californians style.

That's really funny. Well played!

Future!Cas would be the ultimate cousin to "The Californians". 

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Wow, I've never noticed. Doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't have seatbelts in back, but I thought seatbelts in front started being standard earlier than '69! Interesting. I guess they can still pass inspection because the car is an antique?

I'm trying to remember when seatbelts became mandatory in cars...late '60s probably? I know it wasn't mandatory to wear them until the mid '80s. I remember it being a big deal that we had to suddenly wear our seatbelts when I was like 10 years old.

So, they probably do have lap belts, at least, but I've never seen them used.

And, thanks to you people, I've successfully wasted a bunch of time and avoided work for a while longer looking reading up on Baby on the wiki:  http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Baby. They don't mention whether she has seatbelts or not, but there are lots of other interesting facts there that will help anyone else trying to avoid their life. ;)

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was trying to figure what they were chatting about. I mean they weren't even doing any heavy gesticulating so I don't think they were arguing. I really want to know what they were saying to each other. LOL

Dean: What if she goes into labor at the bunker?
Sam:  She's not due for another month, Dean!
Dean: And since when is time on our side??... Oh and it's LUCIFER'S HELLSPAWN!

I think that's pretty much the conversation they were having! It started with Dean asking what the plan was, so...?

 

ETA: OOPs, didn't see the new page...again. What @rue721 said about the seatbelts.

Edited April 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Well, that's WORTHY conversation I didn't event think of.  

[rue721]

WAIT though -- is Baby model year '67 or was she just produced in '67?

Because if she's model year '67 then maybe the seat belt legislation doesn't apply. Although, by mid-year '67, when the Impala rolled off the assembly line, Chevy might already have been complying with the seat belt legislation that would become effective Jan 1, 1968. So I'd actually expect Baby to comply, even though she might not have been technically required to comply.

Also, in reality, I would think that a car that rolls off the line in mid-year '67 would actually be model year '68 -- but maybe the model year v production year thing "wasn't a thing" back then?

ETA: what is ridiculous is that I am currently supposed to be doing my grandma's (very complicated) taxes. So I am distracting myself from taxes by looking up seat belt regulation. I think I might have to contact Guinness about claiming the World's Most Boring Person record.

Edited April 30, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think that's pretty much the conversation they were having! It started with Dean asking what the plan was, so...?

Wait, was that the actual conversation outside the car?  I am so confused LOL

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, was that the actual conversation outside the car?  I am so confused LOL

No. I don't know what they were actually saying--other than it starting with Dean asking what they were going to do with Kelly--so yours seems likely.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

No. I don't know what they were actually saying--other than it starting with Dean asking what they were going to do with Kelly--so yours seems likely.

Ahhh. okay. I was thinking, "Wait...maybe they had it and I missed it!"

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I could go along with 2 if Sam wasn't there - but shotgun is Sam's seat. 

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

And this isn't the first time, Sam's lost his shotgun seat due to etiquette.  No Exit comes to mind when Ellen rode up front. 

Sam has also let Mary ride up front at least twice this season.  I know Asa Fox was one.  

[Diane]

Keeping short, but I drove myself in a car that had airbags the day I went into labor 9 months pregnant, didn't think anything of it.  I thought Cas giving her the front seat was just good etiquette.

[FlickChick]

1967 cars did not have seat belts and if Baby was manufactured in April, that would still be the model year since the new models did not appear until mid-September. Many cars would still be made prior to switching to the new model year - perhaps in July or August. Also, GM would not be anxious to change their manufacturing process until necessary. If they have seat belts in the Impala, it is for the safety of the driver/passenger when they are shooting moving scenes.

Edited April 30, 2017 by FlickChick
GM additional explanation

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam has also let Mary ride up front at least twice this season.  I know Asa Fox was one.  

Yes but that was Sam's choice.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

59 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

1967 cars did not have seat belts

According to AutoSafety.org (http://www.autosafety.org/history-seat-belt-development/) All US car manufacturers were providing front lap belts by 1965.  Lap belts for the back seat were standard by 1967.  Furthermore, according to Chevy Talk ((http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/203751/) Chevy actually made seat belts (lap belts) standard on all their cars (including the Chevy Impala) in 1964. 

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes but that was Sam's choice.

So?  It still shows that Sam doesn't always ride up front - especially it seems if it's him giving up his seat to a woman.  

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes but that was Sam's choice.

I guess I don't get the issue with this. 

Do you think Sam would be upset by Kelly sitting in his spot? I wouldn't think so. I mean I don't see why in that situation Cas or anyone else would have to ask Sam's permission to have her sit in the passenger's side.

[Res]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I don't get the issue with this. 

Do you think Sam would be upset by Kelly sitting in his spot? I wouldn't think so. I mean I don't see why in that situation Cas or anyone else would have to ask Sam's permission to have her sit in the passenger's side.

I don't get it, either. I actually would like it better if they would change things up a bit, and not just the seating in the Impala. I mean, I know the show is about the brothers but I would like them to not be joined at the hip or the writers afraid (as they appear to be) to change things up, like having separate hunts occasionally, or having others stay at the bunker. If they are going for a more ensemble cast, things like, the passenger seat is Sam's and Sam's only need to go by the wayside as well as Sam is the only hunting partner Dean can have or Sam and Dean hunt alone. All of that is making the writing too predictable and IMO boring. Not that I normally care about Cas's storyline and I barely follow Crowley's storyline, but if that's what they are moving to, as well as others, they need to spread the brothers out to increase interest in new cast members to ensure rates while letting the other actor have his time off then switch it up.

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I don't get the issue with this. 

Do you think Sam would be upset by Kelly sitting in his spot? I wouldn't think so. I mean I don't see why in that situation Cas or anyone else would have to ask Sam's permission to have her sit in the passenger's side.

I think one of the problems with Sam in the back seat is that Jared is so freaking tall he has to practically lie down to stay in frame.  I noticed that in the Asa Fox episode.  In order to be a part of the conversation Jared had to kind of lay sideways to get between Samantha and Jensen and stay in frame..  It looked really uncomfortable.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Casseiopeia
spelling

[catrox14]

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

I think one of the problems with Sam in the back seat is that Jared is so freaking tall he has to practically lie down to stay in frame.  I noticed that in the Asa Fox episode.  In order to be a part of the conversation Jared had to kind of lay sideways to get between Samantha and Jensen amd stay in frame..  It looked really uncomfortable.

That's not a story reason though to keep Sam in the front seat, which is what I thought was the issue. 

Sam must have fit okay in it when he was knocking boots with Piper in Baby :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam must have fit okay in it when he was knocking boots with Piper in Baby :)

Yeah, but he was laying sideways then.  ;)

[shang yiet]

Sam can be seen driving the Impala sometimes. Dean doesn't always have to drive.

Anyway, I see Sam is on his happy pills again, you know, the kind that won't let you show you any messy emotions like anger, frustration, bitterness. You would think Cas just popped out for a burger, judging from his reaction. That scene was all about Dean's feelings because Sam is calm all the time now.

Edited May 1, 2017 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

I rewatched this tonight and I legit have no idea why Sam said "Cas, you couldn't even look us in eye " when he told Cas about putting the tracker on Cas' phone, when they found him at the motel room.

When Cas arrived  back to the bunker, he literally looked at them both from the balconyof them eye to eye, with his occasional looking away per the usual. When  Dean and Cas were having their argument in Dean's room they were like two feet from each other and in general were face to face, and then Dean stepped right up to Cas' face.

I cannot figure out why that line exists. It's so weird!

Also, did Cas sneak out through garage? Because AFAIK, Cas still can't teleport. If he left through the front door, wouldn't the boys have heard the door squeak ...like it always does given they were in the main area of the bunker?

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I rewatched this tonight and I legit have no idea why Sam said "Cas, you couldn't even look us in eye " when he told Cas about putting the tracker on Cas' phone, when they found him at the motel room.

They needed some plot contrivance to find Cas quickly and since Sam was doing all the research and coming up with all the solutions in the episode, it was in line with that. It also juxtaposed with Dean getting duped all over the place. In short, some simplistic smart/dumb thing. And once you say something in dialogue, it mostly overrides a visual presentation of a previous scene. That is, once you say Cas acted shifty and couldn`t make eye contact, most people will go with that even if he didn`t act this way.

[Casseiopeia]

...

Edited May 1, 2017 by Casseiopeia
spelling

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They needed some plot contrivance to find Cas quickly and since Sam was doing all the research and coming up with all the solutions in the episode, it was in line with that. It also juxtaposed with Dean getting duped all over the place. In short, some simplistic smart/dumb thing. And once you say something in dialogue, it mostly overrides a visual presentation of a previous scene. That is, once you say Cas acted shifty and couldn`t make eye contact, most people will go with that even if he didn`t act this way.

 

That's true.  I dislike it because that line is somewhat reductive and undermines all the layers of stuff going in their first conversation with Cas, and the subsequent conversation between Dean and Cas alone. I mean IMO Cas did feel bad for leaving Dean in the lurch, and IMO Dean was upset with Cas for bailing without a word but they each kind of stood their ground on why that happened. And IMO that line made Cas seem pretty childish and IMO Cas was not being childish here.  He was making a potentially bad decision and he lied but I dunno I won't put it as childish.

But I get not everyone will see it that way. 
 

[gonzosgirrl]

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I don't get the issue with this. 

Do you think Sam would be upset by Kelly sitting in his spot? I wouldn't think so. I mean I don't see why in that situation Cas or anyone else would have to ask Sam's permission to have her sit in the passenger's side.

I don't get why this is such an issue, either. I mentioned it originally because it was a plot contrivance that she was in the front seat alone, with Cas in the back. And seriously, in 12 seasons of the show, the seat has traditionally been Sam's.

[Jynnan tonnix]

Going back to the Nephilim question, I don't think there's anything that says the baby has to necessarily be born evil. As has been pointed out, Lucifer was not considered evil until he rebelled, so other than the possibility of the baby inheriting Daddy's rebellious nature, there's every chance for it to be a bit of a blank slate, personality-wise. It rather mirrors a plot line going on in The Magicians at the moment, where the child of a human and a trickster god did, indeed, turn out to be good, even sacrificing himself in a bid to bring down his evil father. Demi-gods are apparently every bit, if not more powerful than their parents in that canon, anyway. Don't know how that relates to Nephilim, but they seem to possibly be the "Giants" described in the Bible. 

There's some reference to them in the Apocrypha as well, as huge, strong, and brutal, but nothing offhand that suggests that they are associated with any catastrophic supernatural power.

http://nwcreation.net/nephilim.html#Apocryphal_references

Hybrids are sometimes known to be larger and more powerful than either parent species, such as the Liger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger , and I guess in my mind, between those things, the idea of an angel/human hybrid being at least a bit more powerful than either does seem at least somewhat plausible.

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Going back to the Nephilim question, I don't think there's anything that says the baby has to necessarily be born evil. As has been pointed out, Lucifer was not considered evil until he rebelled, so other than the possibility of the baby inheriting Daddy's rebellious nature, there's every chance for it to be a bit of a blank slate, personality-wise. It rather mirrors a plot line going on in The Magicians at the moment, where the child of a human and a trickster god did, indeed, turn out to be good, even sacrificing himself in a bid to bring down his evil father. Demi-gods are apparently every bit, if not more powerful than their parents in that canon, anyway. Don't know how that relates to Nephilim, but they seem to possibly be the "Giants" described in the Bible. 

There's some reference to them in the Apocrypha as well, as huge, strong, and brutal, but nothing offhand that suggests that they are associated with any catastrophic supernatural power.

http://nwcreation.net/nephilim.html#Apocryphal_references

Hybrids are sometimes known to be larger and more powerful than either parent species, such as the Liger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger , and I guess in my mind, between those things, the idea of an angel/human hybrid being at least a bit more powerful than either does seem at least somewhat plausible.

Since Cas' true size is that of the Chrysler Building, I'm on board with old-timey Nephilims being "giants".  Impractical for SPN, but kinda cool. 

[catrox14]

Okay, I have another bone to pick with this episode and continuity.

During the exchange between Dean and Cas, in Dean's room, Cas said the following :

Quote

Cas: Well, I didn’t mean to add to your distress. I… Dean, I just keep failing. Again and again. When you were taken I searched for months and I couldn’t find you,

Dean and Sam were on lockdown for  6weeks. 6 weeks =/= months.  So is Cas talking about the black site thing? Or is he referring back to demon!Dean? Or what? Or is time wonky?? Is this a mistake or telling us something else?? Is this a soft retcon of how long Dean and Sam were on lockdown to a more reasonable amount of time beyond 6 weeks for Dean to be compelled to make a deal with Billie?

Edited May 3, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I think he's talking about the black site. I guess you could say it was more than one month...?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think he's talking about the black site. I guess you could say it was more than one month...?

Why not have him say "When you were taken I looked for you for weeks, Dean" I mean "MONTHS" implies a lot more than just a little over a month IMO.  Plus Cas said it pretty dramatically. LOL. Things like that bug me.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Okay, I have another bone to pick with this episode and continuity.

During the exchange between Dean and Cas, in Dean's room, Cas said the following :

Dean and Sam were on lockdown for  6weeks. 6 weeks =/= months.  So is Cas talking about the black site thing? Or is he referring back to demon!Dean? Or what? Or is time wonky?? Is this a mistake or telling us something else?? Is this a soft retcon of how long Dean and Sam were on lockdown to a more reasonable amount of time beyond 6 weeks for Dean to be compelled to make a deal with Billie?

I don't know why, but I thought he was talking about he was talking about his time with Crowley

[ILoveReading]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean and Sam were on lockdown for  6weeks. 6 weeks =/= months.  So is Cas talking about the black site thing? Or is he referring back to demon!Dean? Or what? Or is time wonky?? Is this a mistake or telling us something else?? Is this a soft retcon of how long Dean and Sam were on lockdown to a more reasonable amount of time beyond 6 weeks for Dean to be compelled to make a deal with Billie?

 

Maybe its more evidence of your Dean's still in isolation theory.  Cas says months because he's still searching.

[DeansDorkyAngel]

Wow, this is really thrilling.  And Dean is imagining all of it, right? Holy cow :D :D :D  You, ILoveReading, I like you ;) 

[ILoveReading]

36 minutes ago, DeansDorkyAngel said:

Wow, this is really thrilling.  And Dean is imagining all of it, right? Holy cow :D :D :D  You, ILoveReading, I like you ;) 

This isn't my theory it belongs to @catrox14 ,but thank you   :-)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think he's talking about the black site. I guess you could say it was more than one month...?

I think they were in at least two months.  When Mary and Cas meet at the bar, that's when Cas says:

Quote

MARY: I keep telling myself they’re fine. They’ve only been gone--

CASTIEL: Six weeks, two days, and ten hours.

After that, Mary still had time to go hunt down the vamps nest in Missouri which Cas couldn't find.  Anyone catch how many scratches Dean made on the wall to mark time?

Anyway - to tie it back to this ep, it still doesn't really explain why Cas made it sound like even more than two months.  Unless Cas was just being a drama queen.  ;)

[SueB]

It may have only been about 2 months , but to Cas I think it felt longer. He was suffering with the boys in lockdown.  He wanted to rescue them and felt nearly as useless as they did. Without his wings, and with them warded, he couldn't do it.  Crowley wouldn't help.  He tried to emulate them when they come to an impasse by hunting and he was ineffective at finding the vampires. It just HURT. So... he said months -- it was probably hyperbole but I appreciate the sentiment of the moment.

I wrote up a pre-episode assessment of Cas, which is nothing we didn't all know but I wanted it out there.  I think the Cas' raison d'etre is "Save The Winchesters". And he failed at that.  Which is why he felt lost.  So now he has a mission: raise the nephilim to be a force for good.  I don't think he's actually going to get to do this, I think it'll all go pear-shaped but not because the baby is evil and not because of something Cas does wrong IMO.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

It may have only been about 2 months , but to Cas I think it felt longer. He was suffering with the boys in lockdown.  He wanted to rescue them and felt nearly as useless as they did. Without his wings, and with them warded, he couldn't do it.  Crowley wouldn't help.  He tried to emulate them when they come to an impasse by hunting and he was ineffective at finding the vampires. It just HURT. So... he said months -- it was probably hyperbole but I appreciate the sentiment of the moment.

Considering how the whole "six weeks in a lame prison was worse than Hell" concept was total hyperbole, I have no problem with Cass going hyperbolic as well. Was it the best word to use? Probably not. But I think the point was, like you said, to Cass, it felt like it was an eternity.

And, yes, I concede that too is hyperbole. ;)

[SueB]

"I cannot live without books hyperbole." - with apologies to Thomas Jefferson.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

It may have only been about 2 months , but to Cas I think it felt longer. He was suffering with the boys in lockdown.  He wanted to rescue them and felt nearly as useless as they did. Without his wings, and with them warded, he couldn't do it.  Crowley wouldn't help.  He tried to emulate them when they come to an impasse by hunting and he was ineffective at finding the vampires. It just HURT. So... he said months -- it was probably hyperbole but I appreciate the sentiment of the moment.

Supposing it was hyperbole from Cas, born of the hurt he felt when he didn't know where Dean was for 6 weeks, that doesn't do Cas any favors and puts him in a worse light than he already is here, given he did get Dean's messages, which IMO included Dean's prayers, not just VM or text messages. So that means he either didn't consider that Dean would be hurting which makes him insensitive and hypocritical, or he was being reprogrammed in Heaven to not care that Dean was sending him messages(read prayers).

They could have communicated Cas' desperation to find Dean without bringing in time by changing the line to something like:

Cas: Well, I didn’t mean to add to your distress. I… Dean, I just keep failing. Again and again. When you were taken, I did everything I could think of,  and I still couldn’t find you vs the way it was written.

To me that would have still communicated Cas' desperation to find him and his inability to do. It would explain why Cas decided to hunt instead of continuing the search 24/7, because Cas thought he had exhausted all avenues and he would hunt to honor them until he found another way. It would further the theme of Cas' failing in that mission and taking this rather desperate act to deal with the Devil's spawn.

IMO, it's probably just  sloppy, lazy writing with no attention to continuity. My hope is that it's foreshadowing something more interesting.

ETA: The other option is that any time Cas spends in Heaven regresses  Cas' ability to be empathetic or to hear or feel Dean's prayers and needs. And no one is going to convince me that Dean wasn't praying for Cas to answer him. 

And to that end, I'll never believe that Dean wasn't praying for Cas' help when they were in the black site. How much more interesting would it  have been if it was revealed the black site was actually run by the BMOL, as an outsourced company for the feds, which is why Mick knew where it was, and that it was warded against supernatural things like angels and that's why Cas couldn't pick up on Dean's prayers, but Billie could because Billie is a reaper not a regular angel. 

I really shouldn't think about this so much but this really bugs me. LOL

Edited May 3, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, it's probably just  sloppy, lazy writing with no attention to continuity.

I don't find it a huge offense.  Could it have been more precise? Yes. But it's close enough and I do think Cas underestimates how much he means to the Winchesters.  Dean's made it clear, in Dean-speak, how much Cas means.  But Cas was surprised when he said "us".  Like Cas thought that Dean would pull back the welcome mat or something.  And Dean spelled it out for him with his "dumbass" comment.  So, perhaps Cas was insensitive, but I think it's more like Cas is way underestimating his own worth.  And he's a bit thick-headed about it (therefore "dumbass" was probably the appropriate feedback, but said in a loving 'idjit' kinda way).  

Plus, it's not in the same weight-class IMO as how powerful they made Dagon vs Azazel & Ramiel.  

Azazel and Dagon both teleported, Ramiel did not. I'm going with Ramiel is the kind of BadAss that likes to saunter in and so chooses to walk.  Ramiel, however, didn't smite Cas like Dagon did.  Did he just want to use his spear (cause it was fun?)   Did Dagon ("who likes her toys") have some special amulet or relic that gave her an edge?  I don't know.  I just felt like she was awfully Smitey McSmiterson.  And not just a kill but a "poof".  The lack of exposition on Prince of Hell tricks is a disappointment.  

But in this case, I say disappointment versus poor writing because I suspect the fuzziness is intentional.  I think it's likely they want to keep things fuzzy on PoH power-levels.  The more the boys know about their enemy, the likelier they are to devise a defense.  And this allows the writers to add more details later -- if we ever come up against Asmodeus (sp?) Which, now that he's been NAMED seems more likely.  

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Cas: Well, I didn’t mean to add to your distress. I… Dean, I just keep failing. Again and again. When you were taken, I did everything I could think of,  and I still couldn’t find you vs the way it was written.

To me that would have still communicated Cas' desperation to find him and his inability to do. It would explain why Cas decided to hunt instead of continuing the search 24/7, because Cas thought he had exhausted all avenues and he would hunt to honor them until he found another way. It would further the theme of Cas' failing in that mission and taking this rather desperate act to deal with the Devil's spawn.

IMO, real people don't always speak precisely, so I don't know why TV characters should have to.  I mean, technically 2 months is months.  It could have even been 2 /12 or 3 months for all we know. But, at any rate, if I was in the hospital for 2 months, for instance, I might say I was there for months.  Would technically be true.

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And to that end, I'll never believe that Dean wasn't praying for Cas' help when they were in the black site. How much more interesting would it  have been if it was revealed the black site was actually run by the BMOL, as an outsourced company for the feds, which is why Mick knew where it was, and that it was warded against supernatural things like angels and that's why Cas couldn't pick up on Dean's prayers, but Billie could because Billie is a reaper not a regular angel.

I do agree that this is a big plothole.  Castiel told Claire that angels could find people when they prayed to them.  Apparently, except when they can't.  Of course, I think that line was totally unnecessary, because I don't remember Claire getting angel hiding sidgils, but whatever.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Azazel and Dagon both teleported, Ramiel did not. I'm going with Ramiel is the kind of BadAss that likes to saunter in and so chooses to walk.  Ramiel, however, didn't smite Cas like Dagon did.  Did he just want to use his spear (cause it was fun?)   Did Dagon ("who likes her toys") have some special amulet or relic that gave her an edge?  I don't know.  I just felt like she was awfully Smitey McSmiterson.  And not just a kill but a "poof".  The lack of exposition on Prince of Hell tricks is a disappointment.  

But in this case, I say disappointment versus poor writing because I suspect the fuzziness is intentional.  I think it's likely they want to keep things fuzzy on PoH power-levels.  The more the boys know about their enemy, the likelier they are to devise a defense.  And this allows the writers to add more details later -- if we ever come up against Asmodeus (sp?) Which, now that he's been NAMED seems more likely.

I have some theories (and musings) on your observations. I'm not saying that they are good theories and musings, but...

As for Ramiel and the teleporting, I wonder if teleporting leaves a "signature?" We know that spells can, and ghosts can, so maybe Ramiel didn't teleport as a general rule because he was trying to stay off the radar - which if I remember correctly he did either say as such or imply that he was trying to stay off the radar. As for why he didn't teleport during the scuffle, did Dean have the magic brass knuckles? If he did, if I remember correctly, I think that affects supernatural beings' power - it did a number on Castiel if I remember correctly* - so maybe Ramiel's power to teleport was sapped. I don't remember if Dean had the brass knuckles with Dagon or not. Or arrogance / overconfidence - arrogance also works.

As for Dagon being powered up... could she have siphoned some power off of Baby Lucifer? And if so, is Baby Lucifer an equal opportunity power lender/giver? Will he just give it out freely and see who wins and/or will do the best (and or worst) with it? Or does he not even have control over where his power gets given... which might be interesting - and scary - because if so, then whoever gets the baby, gets the power.

Maybe Dagon was surprised Baby Lucifer gave Castiel power, because she thought she was the only one who Baby Lucifer would give it to.

* Maybe this is why if Dean had them with the fight with Ramiel that Castiel's abilities were so wonky. Maybe they were affected by the magic brass knuckles, too, and if Dean wasn't using them in this episode, it could be so that Castiel wouldn't get affected in a fight again after learning from the Ramiel incident.

All just musings on my part though.

And I agree with you on the fuzziness of the Princes of Hell being intentional. It's more of a challenge if Sam and Dean don't know exactly what they are up against and if every PoH is unique and might pose a different challenge. Sort of like each Horseman was a different challenge to overcome.

Edited May 3, 2017 by AwesomO4000
I mixed up my Princes of Hell - oops.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

IMO, real people don't always speak precisely, so I don't know why TV characters should have to.  I mean, technically 2 months is months.  It could have even been 2 /12 or 3 months for all we know. But, at any rate, if I was in the hospital for 2 months, for instance, I might say I was there for months.  Would technically be true.

If this was another character other than Cas, I would agree, but IMO Cas is quite specific when he speaks and is often overly literal. If I were in the hospital for two months, I would say I was in the hospital for a couple of months

As to the timeline, the show itself said that it was 6 weeks later, stated by Cas himself in First Blood.

Quote

Mary: I keep telling myself they're fine. They've only been gone-

Castiel: Six weeks, two days, and ten hours.

Mary: We'll find them Castiel. We will. Until then, we just... We're doin' our best.

I didn't think there was any implication that it took the boys another 6 weeks or even two weeks to escape.

Edited May 3, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't think there was any implication that it took the boys another 6 weeks or even two weeks to escape.

RICK: Great plan. For the last two months, we’ve done nothing but sit around with our junk in our hands because you wanted to wait them out. That really worked. Yeah, nice job.

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

RICK: Great plan. For the last two months, we’ve done nothing but sit around with our junk in our hands because you wanted to wait them out. That really worked. Yeah, nice job.

From the "You know you watch too much "Walking Dead" file , because I legit thought this was a quote from Rick Grimes LOL because I had no idea who Rick was. LOLOL.

So it was like 8 weeks which is my additional two weeks leeway. Even so, I still don't think Cas would say "Months" when he was already being quite precise with previously. But hey that's MY pet peeve.  I get that no one else cares about it.

[Diane]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

From the "You know you watch too much "Walking Dead" file , because I legit thought this was a quote from Rick Grimes LOL because I had no idea who Rick was. LOLOL.

So it was like 8 weeks which is my additional two weeks leeway. Even so, I still don't think Cas would say "Months" when he was already being quite precise with previously. But hey that's MY pet peeve.  I get that no one else cares about it.

But Cas did say months.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Diane said:

But Cas did say months.

I know he said MONTHS. I mentioned already that I thought the way Misha read the line was dramatic and implies more than  two months.

Again, no one else has to agree with me in how I interpreted it and why it bugs me. But it does. So there it is.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 9:44 PM, catrox14 said:

I love that the doors still squeak on Baby. That's such a great thing that Jensen won't let them change.

They do on my Bronco ('86) too. No amount of W-40 will fix it. But I love my Bronco, rarely drive it. Looks like it just came off the showroom floor!

[Mick Lady]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 6:21 AM, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Does anyone remember the Big Bang Theory ep where Amy ruins the Indian Jones film Raiders of the Lost Arc for the boys by pointing out that at no point during the entire film did Indy's presence make the slightest difference to how things turned out? Kind of ruined it for me too - and Dabb should apply that test to every ep. If Sam and Dean aren't acting on the events or being affected by them the story needs chucking out and starting again.

Heh. Never saw that episode, but as a math major, I used to love to point out to my English lit. friends that almost every Emily Dickinson poem could be recited to "The Yellow Rose Of Texas"! Think about it;

Because I could not stop for Death —
He kindly stopped for me —
The Carriage held but just Ourselves —
And Immortality.

Drove 'em nuts!

[Diane]

27 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Heh. Never saw that episode, but as a math major, I used to love to point out to my English lit. friends that almost every Emily Dickinson poem could be recited to "The Yellow Rose Of Texas"! Think about it;

Because I could not stop for Death —
He kindly stopped for me —
The Carriage held but just Ourselves —
And Immortality.

Drove 'em nuts!

That's just cruel, I will remember that forever!

[Mick Lady]

3 minutes ago, Diane said:

That's just cruel, I will remember that forever!

Sorry Diane! I couldn't help myself! It was lonely being a math major...