S12.E19: The Future

[Diane]

29 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Whoa - that episode!  Whoa...  Okay: disclaimers time: I just watched.  And I had several distractions, so I had to keep pausing (I started at 6:30 and just finished a few minutes ago!  Lol!)  Also managed to stay clear of the forum so I have not been spoiled since early Thursday or read comments.  Still - that ending...  But first things first:

• I decided about 1 nanosecond into that first bunker scene that I was definitely here for the pretty.  No matter what else happened, or didn't: I LIKE seeing the fellas every week fighting the good fight and looking good while doing it.  Continuity?  Who the f cares about continuity?  Not me.  Really don't right now*  (*Subject to change).  Continuity can go screw itself along with Lucifer as long as Sam and Dean are on my screen having new adventures and not bitching at each other.  That being said:
• Awww....Dean is a bitch when he cares.  I think though that maybe he was taking some of his frustration about Mary out on Cas.  And Sam was a doll when his face fell after Dean told him they were not just happy no questions asked that Cas was back.  Although really: Sam just be happy if you want to be, baby.
• This episode had several good surprises along the way for me - at least not the way I expected things to play out.  Whether the way things do play out is good or bad remains to be seen.  But at least it's interesting and I can't tell what is going to happen!
• I liked that the guys "found another way" - even if that didn't work out.  They found a potential way to save both Kelly and the baby, which is what they should be doing - and they were both on board with it.  Love, Love, LOVE when the brothers really work together.    
• The previouslies showing Eileen shooting the dippy BMoL idiot has me worried for her now.
•  I thought the interaction between Lucifer and Dagon was interesting and made me wonder about the connection between Lucifer and his 'princes': like could they control the connection?  It didn't seem like Dagon could stop Lucifer from reaching through and hurting her.  Maybe that's why Ramiel was so keen on laying low? If they didn't initiate the connection, it weakened over time and Lucifer couldn't find them.  (I'm kind of nerdy and like thinking about things like that.)
• I also wonder why (other than Plot) Kelly didn't stab herself in the stomach when she tried to kill herself.  I thought that was what she was going to do at first, rather than just cut her wrists.  I mean, if you want to be SURE that your half-angelic child won't survive to do terrible things to the world...
• I thought about @rue721 when Kelly was talking about the baby not being born bad!  (You Know You Read Too Much Previously TV Supernatural Forum Threads...  Lol.)
• I liked Kelly having Faith.  And I liked Cas' talk with her, because from his POV that made sense, but I think a sense of Faith has been missing from the show for awhile, so it was nice to see it back.  Now, where they go with it, and whether it's good or bad or justified is another matter.  I thought for sure when they were talking about who was going to take care of the baby when Kelly was gone was going to be Mary as has been speculated about on here.  (speaking of You Know You Read Too Much PTV Supernatural Forum threads...)  I'm glad it wasn't Mary.  
• I don't like the colt being melted.  (Wonder if they could re-forge the parts?) or Joshua being smoked.  I so wanted Joshua to be good guy and help, but in the end, he really did nothing.  I do like Dagon going up in flames.  
• And that ending - with Cas saying the baby showed him the future: just Whoa.  It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.  
• I definitely think that Lucifer and this storyline is going to be what runs over into S13 - probably not the BMoL.  Which, as long as Lucifer is still on some sort of a leash, I don't think that's too bad.  (Really, he's just too powerful for the show to have him loose.) And like I said, I think it's going to be interesting to see where the show goes with the nephilim storyline with Cas and this new-found Faith of his.

Love your point of view, this is the first ep in a while that I have already watched 3 times. I keep catching little things that I missed the other times. 

[Goldmoon]

One thing that bugged was that Kelly got naked to kill herself in the tub. Who does that?  You know you are going to be found dead, so keep it modest, okay? 

I knew Kelly was thinking of giving Cas her baby.  I just wish there wasn't so much hesitation about taking Kelly and son to heaven.  Plotonium.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 4/27/2017 at 10:08 PM, SueB said:

• Dean fixed the truck.  (Competency kink)

Oh hell yeah.  Nothing sexier than a man who knows how to fix things...

On 4/27/2017 at 10:56 PM, SueB said:

So yeah, going with BOTH soul and grace -- means it's both AC and DC (see the WTF'ery thread for my theory on power of soul vs grace).  Hey, AC/DC... I'm just sayin'... (I'll show myself out).

After this episode, I think you're close on the AC/DC thing - but I think the nephilim might be more along the lines of Harmonics. In a power distribution network, Harmonics can really mess with the intended signal - usually that's bad, but I guess it depends on what you want the final signal to be.  In music, Harmonics (hello? harmonies) are what make vibrations pleasing to the ear.  

On 4/27/2017 at 11:18 PM, catrox14 said:

Sorry I wasn't clear. Obviously it wasn't the Colt in DSoTM. It was his Pearl Handled Colt. My point is that Dean keeps weapons under his pillow.

Sam has also been shown to sleep with a weapon under his pillow.  Don't remember the episode's name, but the one where Dean wakes him up to blasting music on his phone comes to mind.  Not trying to make this Sam vs. Dean.  My point is: I think sleeping with a weapon close by/under their pillow is SOP for both brothers.  

15 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Does anyone remember the Big Bang Theory ep where Amy ruins the Indian Jones film Raiders of the Lost Arc for the boys by pointing out that at no point during the entire film did Indy's presence make the slightest difference to how things turned out? Kind of ruined it for me too - and Dabb should apply that test to every ep. If Sam and Dean aren't acting on the events or being affected by them the story needs chucking out and starting again.

I don't watch Big Bang.  I did watch one or two episodes which were kind of funny (the one with the line about engineers and getting phd's in particular - so true) but then I realized the engineer on the show wasn't really an engineer, and as a real engineer, he just pissed me off.  I think, however, you are forgetting the biggest point regarding Raiders: without Indy, it wouldn't have been any damn FUN.   It was a FUN movie.  (and made serious $$$, regardless if Indy didn't make a difference to how the plot unfolded.)  So, seriously, who would have even watched the movie to start without Harrison Ford in the lead role?  Maybe some people - but they wouldn't have gone back to watch multiple times which is what really drove the ticket sales up.  Same with Supernatural.  Sure, you can probably make the argument that the plot of episode X wouldn't have changed without Sam and Dean on the screen.  Except it wouldn't have been as much Fun without them making an appearance and I for one wouldn't have even bothered tuning in in they weren't shown at all.   

12 hours ago, Katy M said:

That only was able to happen because Sam and Dean locked all the doors for the first time ever.  It's always unlocked.  Partly because that cars made back then, you couldn't just push the lock down and slam the door. You either have to push the button or whatever on the door handle at the same time or lock it with the key after shutting. 

Sorry, but I really don't understand what you're saying here.  I had an old 1978 Volare back in college (not kidding.)  I could push the lock down while the door was open (usually as I was getting out), slam the door shut (and they were so heavy you had to slam them) and yes - the door was then locked.   So I'm pretty sure this is also how the impala would be.  

That being said, I don't know that this is the first time ever that Sam and Dean have locked the doors on the impala.  I was taught to always lock my car doors when I got out, or first got in - so I still do.  I have friends who never lock their car doors.  But I would think with John being the paranoid parent that he was, would have taught his sons to always locks the doors also.  

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I once had a tape I made labeled "Ditty's Fun Music". (Although my first name isn't actually Ditty, but I think you catch my drift.)

Lol.  I had some mixed CD's I named "My Mix 1", "My Mix 2", etc.  Not very original I guess.  :/

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam has also been shown to sleep with a weapon under his pillow.  Don't remember the episode's name, but the one where Dean wakes him up to blasting music on his phone comes to mind.  Not trying to make this Sam vs. Dean.  My point is: I think sleeping with a weapon close by/under their pillow is SOP for both brothers

Yes, I remember that as well, but in this situation, it wasn't SOP given that Sam was shocked that Dean didn't put the Colt in the safe. 

[Aeryn13]

I think the reference to Dean sleeping with the Colt under his pillow was just for the "how stupid are you?" moment later when it ended up doubly his fault that it got stolen. And it looked even more ridiculous how Dean was all protective and possessive of the Colt since he never did anything with it since it came back. Empty posturing never looks good. Dagon melting it even made me kind of glad because it ended that cringeworthy-ness. 

[MysteryGuest]

The whole "Colt" thing seems rather pointless in retrospect.  Was it brought back just to add more drama to the Sam, Dean and Mary saga?  Was it brought back just to even the score and let Sam get his big kill using the gun?  It does seem ridiculous to show Dean practically in a romantic relationship with the damn thing and then to never let him actually use it.  And now they've taken something iconic to the show and just wasted it.  That was disappointing.

As for the locked doors on the Impala, I don't remember them ever locking the doors in the past.  Hell, most of the time the windows are open.  I suppose it wasn't the worst plot device they could have used, but it does speak to the fact that the writers don't watch the show.  I know it's a little thing, but fans notice those little things and it means something.  They've been pretty careless with the SPN lore this season, IMO.  

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sorry, but I really don't understand what you're saying here.  I had an old 1978 Volare back in college (not kidding.)  I could push the lock down while the door was open (usually as I was getting out), slam the door shut (and they were so heavy you had to slam them) and yes - the door was then locked.   So I'm pretty sure this is also how the impala would be.  

We had a '68 Ford.  If you locked the door and shut it, the button would just pop back up.  Around the time of Houses of the HOly, I asked if Chevys were the same way back then, and told yes.  Obviously I do not have experience with a '67 Impala specifically, but I think the '68 car would have been closer than a '78 car.  We also had cars from the '70s that you could just lock normally, so that was probably the decade in which it changed.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sorry, but I really don't understand what you're saying here.  I had an old 1978 Volare back in college (not kidding.)  I could push the lock down while the door was open (usually as I was getting out), slam the door shut (and they were so heavy you had to slam them) and yes - the door was then locked.   So I'm pretty sure this is also how the impala would be.  

That being said, I don't know that this is the first time ever that Sam and Dean have locked the doors on the impala.  I was taught to always lock my car doors when I got out, or first got in - so I still do.  I have friends who never lock their car doors.  But I would think with John being the paranoid parent that he was, would have taught his sons to always locks the doors also.  

Yeah, almost any car we had growing up you could lock the doors pushing down the lock mechanism on the door and close the door. It was really easy. In fact, I could do that on the 1984 Nissan Sentra I had in college. Incidentally, I could also use a coat hanger to unlock the doors when I accidentally locked my keys in the car. Which I did quite a lot my freshman year in college.

Actually, I didn't lock my keys in the car, but friends would. I grew up in the middle of nowhere. We never locked our doors and we always left the keys in the car. So, when I went to college it took me a while to train myself to never leave my keys in the car. My friends, however, were already well trained and would lock their doors automatically, which would lock all the doors with my keys inside. 

However my original comment was a joke about how lazy that scene was written and it had nothing to do with locking doors.

Edited April 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Henry broke a window to steal the Impala -- the doors must have been locked that time.

[Wynne88]

If I filter this episode through my preference for Sam and Dean, and action and emotional beats that include them, it comes up lacking.  On my second watch, I actually fast forwarded through a lot of the Kelly scenes, which didn't leave a lot.  However, during a long day on the road yesterday, I was pondering the episode, and if I remove that filter it was actually a pretty good story.  Not perfect, mind you, but quite decent.  Given Jared and Jensen's understandable decision not to want to work the same hours they did the first few seasons, it would probably greatly heighten my enjoyment of the show overall if I could just get rid of that filter altogether.  

[rue721]

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That being said, I don't know that this is the first time ever that Sam and Dean have locked the doors on the impala.  I was taught to always lock my car doors when I got out, or first got in - so I still do.  I have friends who never lock their car doors.  But I would think with John being the paranoid parent that he was, would have taught his sons to always locks the doors also.

I always lock my door when I get in/out so, you know, nobody else gets in the car. But also, I thought that on cars with manual locks, you were supposed to keep the doors locked while you were driving so they wouldn't pop open in a crash.

Anyway, I think the show doesn't want to have to show scene after scene of Dean or Sam crawling over the driver's seat to unlock the passenger's door from the inside, like they would probably do in real life. So the car is always unlocked in actuality, on set.

But IMO that's a "suspend your disbelief" kind of situation, just like with other practicalities that the show glosses over -- like that they very rarely stop for gas or the toilet, that Dean can eat a diet so heavy on junk food and remain healthy and fit, etc etc etc -- because really, it's unrealistic/impractical in the real world, and (more importantly) IMO is out of character, for the characters to leave the doors unlocked all the time.

So, personally, I don't have a problem with the car being shown as locked in this episode (YMMV).

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

We had a '68 Ford.  If you locked the door and shut it, the button would just pop back up.

In our old car, you pushed down the button, and then when you closed the door, you had to keep the (exterior) door handle lifted up until the door latched. Once it latched, you could drop the handle and the door would stay locked. Could you lock the door without a key that way? Just curious. I had no idea that there were such a range of locking mechanisms lol :)

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

IMO is out of character, for the characters to leave the doors unlocked all the time.

I disagree.  Because, like I said, if you are running from something or after something and you want to jump in the car and take off as fast as possible, you're going to want the doors unlocked.  Nobody is likely to steal that car (sorry, but if you're going to steal a car, you're probably going to go for something newer that has more cash value and/or wont' be as likely to break down 5 miles into your getaway.  You can't possibly know how well a stranger has kept up his classic car), and they keep all the valuables in the locked trunk.

 

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

In our old car, you pushed down the button, and then when you closed the door, you had to keep the (exterior) door handle lifted up until the door latched. Once it latched, you could drop the handle and the door would stay locked. Could you lock the door without a key that way? Just curious. I had no idea that there were such a range of locking mechanisms lol

I think, maybe we could, but I'm not sure. It was a convertible, so there wasn't much point in locking it when the top was down, LOL.  Although, sometimes I would shut the door and then reach over and lock it just to be a smartalec. 

[rue721]

Just now, Katy M said:

Because, like I said, if you are running from something or after something and you want to jump in the car and take off as fast as possible, you're going to want the doors unlocked.  Nobody is likely to steal that car (sorry, but if you're going to steal a car, you're probably going to go for something newer that has more cash value and/or wont' be as likely to break down 5 miles into your getaway.  You can't possibly know how well a stranger has kept up his classic car), and they keep all the valuables in the locked trunk.

I mean, the same could be said for the house. Being able to run in/out might be safer in certain circumstances, but IMO leaving it open/vulnerable is still a bigger risk overall. YMMV.

Personally, my worry with leaving the car unlocked wouldn't be that someone would steal it or steal anything from it, it would be that something would lie in wait in it. Same thing with the house, really. You don't want to come back to an ambush.

Although I do think that the Impala could be kind of a target for thieves, because an old car like that is a lot easier to unlock and hotwire than a modern car. I can see it getting stolen by kids for a joyride. But that's not really a big deal either way, so I don't think that that would really be a big worry regardless. I mean, Sam and Dean must have a tracker on it. They could just wait until the kids have left it in some parking lot and go Uber out to it or whatever. Who cares.

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think, maybe we could, but I'm not sure. It was a convertible, so there wasn't much point in locking it when the top was down, LOL.  Although, sometimes I would shut the door and then reach over and lock it just to be a smartalec. 

LOL ok, true.

The locking mechanism I was thinking of was also on a Ford, but from '88 rather than '68. Honestly, Ford probably kept it the same.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I mean, the same could be said for the house. Being able to run in/out might be safer in certain circumstances, but IMO leaving it open/vulnerable is still a bigger risk overall. YMMV.

Personally, my worry with leaving the car unlocked wouldn't be that someone would steal it or steal anything from it, it would be that something would lie in wait in it. Same thing with the house, really. You don't want to come back to an ambush.

WEll, sure, but you and I have different priorities/risk factors than sam and Dean.  I have never once raced to my car to chase after someone, or had to run away from demons and only escaped by my ability to get in my car quickly, therefore, I usually lock it. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

ut IMO that's a "suspend your disbelief" kind of situation, just like with other practicalities that the show glosses over -- like that they very rarely stop for gas or the toilet, that Dean can eat a diet so heavy on junk food and remain healthy and fit, etc etc etc -- because really, it's unrealistic/impractical in the real world, and (more importantly) IMO is out of character, for the characters to leave the doors unlocked all the time.

This is something I've thought about before and decided that given Dean's non sedantary lifestyle his diet is  probably not the biggest worry . He's an active person. Look at all if his  running around,,hunting ,fighting ,on the go all the time. I think if anything would take a toll on Dean's ticker is stress. Same with Sam, no matter how many salads Sam eats.

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean can eat a diet so heavy on junk food and remain healthy and fit, etc etc etc

My theory is that every time someone (Cas mostly) fixes their cuts and wounds, that the whole body is healed too.  Liver, heart, arteries, etc., all healed and made healthy again like a newborn baby's.  Head injuries from numerous concussions too.  All fixed with the wave of an angelic hand.

Stress? I think Dean once said he handles it with 'violence and alcohol'.

[Wayward Son]

I was just looking at the wiki entry on the bunker and it lists Mary's bedroom as 15 (the same as Cas' this episode).  I'm assuming that means Cas doesn't actually have his own room in the bunker, but room 15 is simply the spare bedroom for guests to stay in. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I was just looking at the wiki entry on the bunker and it lists Mary's bedroom as 15 (the same as Cas' this episode).  I'm assuming that means Cas doesn't actually have his own room in the bunker, but room 15 is simply the spare bedroom for guests to stay in. 

Or, maybe Cas and Mary's relationship is deeper than we thought.  They both spent the night between Mamma Mia and The Foundry. Cas doesn't need to sleep, though, and he has no possessions or changes of clothing, so I don't know why he needs a room.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, it's only polite to give him a room even if he doesn't require it, IMO.

[Goldmoon]

It could be a continuity fail.

[Bessie]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, it's only polite to give him a room even if he doesn't require it, IMO.

And the boys are nothing, if not masters of etiquette! ;)

Edited April 29, 2017 by Bessie

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, it's only polite to give him a room even if he doesn't require it, IMO.

I'm assuming they have one spare room that's been cleaned and made up (with a new memory foam mattress and clean sheets!) that's for use for anyone who stays there.   I'm guessing it was Kevin's room originally, since he was the only other person/being who stayed there on a semi-permanent basis. 

So probably Cas uses the already-made-up-room for himself when he feels the need, and gives it to Mary (as a guest) when she stays at the Bunker, since I'm pretty sure they haven't cleaned and furnished all the spare rooms in the bunker just in case someone drops by.      

The boys chose their own rooms when they moved in, and I can't see them standing on ceremony and thinking, "well, which room should we give to Cas?"  They could, of course, offer or tell him to pick a room for himself, but I don't think it would occur to them unless something comes up to suggest that he wants/needs one.  Cas, after all, doesn't sleep and is family so can make his own choices if he wants his own space.  

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

My theory is that every time someone (Cas mostly) fixes their cuts and wounds, that the whole body is healed too.  Liver, heart, arteries, etc., all healed and made healthy again like a newborn baby's.  Head injuries from numerous concussions too.  All fixed with the wave of an angelic hand.

Stress? I think Dean once said he handles it with 'violence and alcohol'.

Yeah, I figured Dean has had 5 new livers! LOL

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

Or, maybe Cas and Mary's relationship is deeper than we thought.  They both spent the night between Mamma Mia and The Foundry. Cas doesn't need to sleep, though, and he has no possessions or changes of clothing, so I don't know why he needs a room.

Maybe Cas just needs a place to rest. To be silent, pray, be to himself.

 I'm gonna head!canon that the boys offered that room to Cas a long time ago and he uses it when he sees fit and when Mary showed up, Cas offered his room to Mary.

[Wayward Son]

The Good

• The Dean half of the Dean and Cas relationship in this episode. I love that he wasn't afraid to call Cas out on his crap, that he was later able to display a softer side and explain why he felt so much anger about his actions. I also loved it when he displayed insight into Castiel's perspective even while he was pissed at him. I've complained about Dean's treatment of Castiel in the past, but not with this episode! This was a great episode for showing Dean cares for Castiel!

• DEAN MADE CAS A MIX TAPE. I loved that Dean wanted to share his music with the angel and show he cared for him! My interpretation of the return is slightly different to others. In my opinion Castiel knew that you keep a gift. I think he felt guilty about what he was about to do. I think he felt unworthy of such a personal gift from Dean and tried to return it as a result. 

• Misha's acting! As far as I am concerned this has to be one of his better episodes. In spite of the terrible writing, he still managed to add a gravitas to his performance that allowed us to feel a certain sympathy for Cas as he carried out atrocious actions. Highlights include the scene where he confesses to Dean he needed to return with a win and the scene where he tells Kelly he isn't someone she ought to put her faith in. 

• The ambiguity surrounding Lucifer's baby! I'm honesty undecided about its allegiance. If he is indeed evil I am curious to find out what the plan is! It must be based on more than just self preservation, as he would have lived had he allowed Dagon to kill Cas and take Kelly again. 

• I love that Castiel couldn't kill Kelly when he reached her with the Colt in hand. The Castiel of season eight and earlier would have done so, after great difficulty.

• I must confess the "W.W.C.D" line made me laugh. Nice non intrusive throwback to the ghostfacers and the earlier day of the show. 

 

The Bad

• What exactly was Dagon's plan? If the angels, demons and humans are dead what exactly is she, Lucifer, and baby ruling over? That came off as a bit of a plot hole to me.

• The grace extraction spell as the solution was so predictable. Many viewers had already speculated that would be the solution, and the boys look like idiots for not thinking of it before now. 

• The destruction of the colt! Why bring back an item so significant to the show only to have it destroyed in the middle of a run of the mill battle! Plus if it was so easy to destroy why didn't the likes of Azazel do it sooner? Especially after he had been warned it would be use to kill him during the events of In the Beginning. 

 

The Ugly 

• The Castiel end of his relationship with Dean and Sam. I understand his motives, but his actions were selfish and completely unnecessary. He could have asked them for the colt. He did not need to lie and steal them. He could have just teleported out with Kelly. He did not need to leave them vulnerable and in the vicinity of numerous angels, many of whom would love to kill them! Whether he is proven right or wrong in the end doesn't matter to me! His actions here were still appalling. 

• Castiel knew that she wouldn't survive giving birth. How exactly did Isham trick him into going after Lily's daughter then? Ugh, these writers really do insist on making him look as bad as possible. 

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

He could have just teleported out with Kelly. He did not need to leave them vulnerable and in the vicinity of numerous angels, many of whom would love to kill them! Whether he is proven right or wrong in the end doesn't matter to me! His actions here were still appalling. 

I'm not sure Cas is able to teleport though. There is no indication he has his wings back or fully functional again.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure Cas is able to teleport though. There is no indication he has his wings back or fully functional again.

Hmm that is a good point! I still feel there were better options than simply knocking them out though. Especially right outside the gates of heaven, a place filled with angels who may have had a grudge against the brothers. 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Hmm that is a good point! I still feel there were better options than simply knocking them out though. Especially right outside the gates of heaven, a place filled with angels who may have had a grudge against the brothers. 

I wonder if he knocked them out in order to erase their memories. :(

Edited April 30, 2017 by catrox14

[Macbeth]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I wonder if he knocked them out in order to erase their memories. :(

If he truly means to keep them safe (a concept alien to the brothers) then removing their memories would give them plausible deniability.  But more likely it would end up getting them killed.

I really like the story line created by Cas bonding with Lucifer's spawn.  Because of course he would.  Given that Lucifer rode Cas's (a/k/a The Winchester's Dog Purse) butt throughout a good portion of last season, the possibilities of this story line just became must watch tv for me.

Now Angels- Did you really think Cas would follow an Angel plan?  No wonder you guys are getting slaughtered in droves.  Have you noticed that God keeps reincarnating Cas after each time he has been killed for not following the Angel plan?  Maybe a clue to where you stand in God's eyes.

And a small piece of great acting on MP's part completely restored Lucifer's menace on this show.   Given that Lucifer had been slowly watered down through out the past 2 seasons, that was no small feat to make me fear Lucifer again. 

And major props to this episode's director.

[gonzosgirrl]

I finally watched. I'll just refer to the TV Guide review as a pretty good summation of my feelings about the episode. Putting my Dean!Girl rage aside for the moment, the biggest plot hole for me (weak-kneed Winchesters and monologuing villains aside): why did Cas put Kelly in the shotgun seat and not in the back with him? It's right up there in stupidity with him letting her sneak out the bathroom window in the first place. (Was that really only this season? It seems like forever ago already).

I am convinced the LuciBaby giving its mama and Cas these visions is all being manipulated by Lucifer, much like "God" talking to Sam last year before he facilitated Lucifer getting sprung from the cage. Sam got a burning bush, Kelly & Cas got a burning Prince of Hell.

Edited April 30, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

why did Cas put Kelly in the shotgun seat and not in the back with him? It's right up there in stupidity with him letting her sneak out the bathroom window in the first place. (Was that really only this season? It seems like forever ago already).

It was a heavy dose of Plotonium, that I can fanwank with 

1) Cas was trusting Baby Mama after their bonding moment when he touched her belly and she agreed to go back to the bunker

2) Cas was being a gentleman by letting her sit up front

3) He figured Dean and Sam would be right on his heels ready to drive away but they lolly gagged. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

It was a heavy dose of Plotonium, that I can fanwank with 

1) Cas was trusting Baby Mama after their bonding moment when he touched her belly and she agreed to go back to the bunker

2) Cas was being a gentleman by letting her sit up front

3) He figured Dean and Sam would be right on his heels ready to drive away but they lolly gagged. 

I could go along with 2 if Sam wasn't there - but shotgun is Sam's seat. Putting a hugely pregnant woman that you've just vowed to protect above all else there makes no sense. But then neither does leaving the unprotected, completely vulnerable, unconscious bodies of your surrogate 'brothers' behind on the ground a few minutes later.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I could go along with 2 if Sam wasn't there - but shotgun is Sam's seat. Putting a hugely pregnant woman that you've just vowed to protect above all else there makes no sense. But then neither does leaving the unprotected, completely vulnerable, unconscious bodies of your surrogate 'brothers' behind on the ground a few minutes later

I've never been pregnant so I wouldn't know, but I didn't know there was a protocol to disallow a woman who is 8 months pregnant from riding shotgun in a car that has plenty of room in the front seat like that car does. I think Sam would have volunteered to give up is seat for her thinking it would be the right thing to do.

ETA: Cas didn't make the decision to knock them out until after he was powered up by whatever. I think Cas has been altered and IMO he wouldn't have done that otherwise. YMMV

Edited April 30, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Putting a hugely pregnant woman that you've just vowed to protect above all else there makes no sense.

It's a two-door car, so wouldn't it be really physically difficult for Kelly to get into the back seat? She's pretty much full term at this point.

Edited April 30, 2017 by rue721

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It's a two-door car, so wouldn't it be really physically difficult for Kelly to get into the back seat? She's pretty much full term at this point.

It's a 4 door car.  Cas opened the door behind her when he got in. But, it's considered polite to let pregnant people ride in front.  There's no air bag in that car, so there's no danger for a pregnant woman riding up front.  And this isn't the first time, Sam's lost his shotgun seat due to etiquette.  No Exit comes to mind when Ellen rode up front. The stupid part was Cas throwing the keys on the front seat.  I doubt Kelly knows how to hotwire or could comfortably get in to position to do so, if she did. 

[DittyDotDot]

I think it was just that they needed Kelly conveniently in the car in the front seat--and needed the keys there too--so she could steal the car. The whole scene was conveniently contrived, if you ask me...Sam and Dean conveniently arguing instead of getting int he car was was also conveniently convenient.

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've never been pregnant so I wouldn't know, but I didn't know there was a protocol to disallow a woman who is 8 months pregnant from riding shotgun in a car that has plenty of room in the front seat like that car does. I think Sam would have volunteered to give up is seat for her thinking it would be the right thing to do.

The front is considered more dangerous if your in a crash than the back seat due to crash force being more likely to be greater on the front of the vehicle.

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It's a two-door car, so wouldn't it be really physically difficult for Kelly to get into the back seat? She's pretty much full term at this point.

It would be, but Baby is a 4-door:

Edited April 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Whoa mind blown. I thought I remembered them pushing down the front seat to climb into the back. Ah well nevermind :)

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

The front is considered more dangerous if your in a crash than the back seat due to crash force being more likely to be greater on the front of the vehicle.

Yeah, that's what I was taught, too. If you're in the backseat, you've got the front seats to cushion the blow. If you're in the front seat, you've got nothing. But OTOH I guess it also depends on the seatbelt situation. There's no way they've got three-point seat belts in the back! Or maybe any seat belts? Do they have three-point seat belts in the front even?

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It's a 4 door car.  Cas opened the door behind her when he got in. But, it's considered polite to let pregnant people ride in front.  There's no air bag in that car, so there's no danger for a pregnant woman riding up front.  And this isn't the first time, Sam's lost his shotgun seat due to etiquette.  No Exit comes to mind when Ellen rode up front. The stupid part was Cas throwing the keys on the front seat.  I doubt Kelly knows how to hotwire or could comfortably get in to position to do so, if she did. 

I honestly don't think Castiel expected her to do what she did! I didn't see the throwing the keys on the front seat for Dean to get when he comes as a big deal, but then again I've done the same thing numerous times when I've went out to the car with my sister while my mum puts the alarm etc on before we leave. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I honestly don't think Castiel expected her to do what she did! I didn't see the throwing the keys on the front seat for Dean to get when he comes as a big deal, but then again I've done the same thing numerous times when I've went out to the car with my sister while my mum puts the alarm etc on before we leave. 

Of course he didn't expect her to do that.  And he ultimately went along anyway, since as he said, he could stop the car and he told her where to go.  Otherwise, she would have just been driving around aimlessly until they ran out of gas.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Whoa mind blown. I thought I remembered them pushing down the front seat to climb into the back. Ah well nevermind :)

Perhaps you're thinking of The Magnificent Seven where Sam climbed into the back--bumping Dean the whole time--of Bobby's 2-door car he was driving at the time? It's a funny moment and sticks out in my mind. ;)

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, that's what I was taught, too. If you're in the backseat, you've got the front seats to cushion the blow. If you're in the front seat, you've got nothing. But OTOH I guess it also depends on the seatbelt situation. There's no way they've got three-point seat belts in the back! Or maybe any seat belts? Do they have three-point seat belts in the front even?

Highly unlikely they have seatbelts at all. If they do, they've never used them, as I recall. Many cars of it's age didn't have any. I remember a station wagon we had as a kid that didn't have seatbelts. I still can't believe my mom could drive with the distractions of us jumping over seats and moving all around the car.

Edited April 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it was just that they needed Kelly conveniently in the car in the front seat--and needed the keys there too--so she could steal the car. The whole scene was conveniently contrived, if you ask me...Sam and Dean conveniently arguing instead of getting int he car was was also conveniently convenient.

This was my point - it was contrived to the point of being ridiculous (for me). And them staying back to argue - when has Dean ever had any qualms about arguing in front of the subject of his argument.  The whole thing was "I'll just let this newly raped-by-Satan pregnant flight risk go to the bathroom alone, while I sit here with my back turned" levels of stupid.

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps you're thinking of Magnificent Seven where Sam climbed into the back of Bobby's 2-door car he was driving at the time? It's a funny moment and sticks out in my mind. ;)

Highly unlikely they have seatbelts at all. If they do, they've never used them, as I recall. Many cars of it's age didn't have any. I remember a station wagon we had as a kid that didn't have seatbelts. I still can't believe my mom could drive with the distractions of us jumping over seats and moving all around the car.

I asked Jim Michaels about seatbelts once on Twitter, and he confirmed that the Impala does have them.

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Of course he didn't expect her to do that.  And he ultimately went along anyway, since as he said, he could stop the car and he told her where to go.  Otherwise, she would have just been driving around aimlessly until they ran out of gas.

Well I'm not going to argue with that ;). I was just saying I don't think throwing the key on the front seat was intended as an encouragement for them to flee on Cas' part. However, you're right he did go on to facilitate Kelly stealing the impala. 

[SueB]

If she has nausea, then the front is best because you have the fan right in front of you.  I used to crank up the fan all the time when pregnant. So, her sitting in the front didn't bother me.  The plotonium, IMO, was the long time Sam and Dean were chatting. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

If she has nausea, then the front is best because you have the fan right in front of you.  I used to crank up the fan all the time when pregnant. So, her sitting in the front didn't bother me.  The plotonium, IMO, was the long time Sam and Dean were chatting. 

Pregnancy aside, he still should have considered her a flight risk - if only by opening the door and running. She did it before after having agreed to go along with their plans. Keeping her beside him was the logical thing to do. ETA: Dean and Sam could've stood there talking all day, if Cas had kept the keys in his hand, or her in the back seat with him.

Edited April 30, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

If she has nausea, then the front is best because you have the fan right in front of you.  I used to crank up the fan all the time when pregnant. So, her sitting in the front didn't bother me.  The plotonium, IMO, was the long time Sam and Dean were chatting

Yes, this.

I was trying to figure what they were chatting about. I mean they weren't even doing any heavy gesticulating so I don't think they were arguing. I really want to know what they were saying to each other. LOL

Dean: What if she goes into labor at the bunker?
Sam:  She's not due for another month, Dean!
Dean: And since when is time on our side??... Oh and it's LUCIFER'S HELLSPAWN!

Edited April 30, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Pregnancy aside, he still should have considered her a flight risk - if only by opening the door and running. She did it before after having agreed to go along with their plans. Keeping her beside him was the logical thing to do.

I don't think she'd get very far running.  I think even I could catch a full-term pregnant woman who has been chained to a wall for like a month.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Pregnancy aside, he still should have considered her a flight risk - if only by opening the door and running. She did it before after having agreed to go along with their plans. Keeping her beside him was the logical thing to do.

I think he thought she was calm and willing to go along with going back to the bunker to figure out a plan.  I legit didn't think she was a flight risk at that point until I noticed the boys lingering too long and Cas tossing the keys on the front seat.

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps you're thinking of Magnificent Seven where Sam climbed into the back of Bobby's 2-door car he was driving at the time? It's a funny moment and sticks out in my mind. ;)

Oh yeah, probably! Because in my mind's eye, it is (gigantic and gangly) Sam trying to crawl in the back.

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Highly unlikely they have seatbelts at all. If they do, they've never used them, as I recall. Many cars of it's age didn't have any. I remember a station wagon we had as a kid that didn't have seatbelts. I still can't believe my mom could drive with the distractions of us jumping over seats and moving all around the car.

Wow, I've never noticed. Doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't have seatbelts in back, but I thought seatbelts in front started being standard earlier than '69! Interesting. I guess they can still pass inspection because the car is an antique?

Yes, I am an incredibly boring person and am intrigued by Baby's plates and tags lol.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, this.

I was trying to figure what they were chatting about. I mean they weren't even doing any heavy gesticulating so I don't think they were arguing. I really want to know what they were saying to each other. LOL

Dean: What if she goes into labor at the bunker?
Sam:  She's not due for another month, Dean!
Dean: And since when is time on our side??

LOL now that convo is headcannon for me. I mean, it IS a worry! WTF is Kelly's birth plan.

Maybe they were just trying to decide which freeway to take, The Californians style.

[Katy M]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I think he thought she was calm and willing to go along with going back to the bunker to figure out a plan.  I legit didn't think she was a flight risk at that point until I noticed the boys lingering too long and Cas tossing the keys on the front seat.

YEah, before Cas got into the car, I thought he was going to be the one that was going to take off.  She never occurred to me as a flight risk until Cas threw the keys up there.  And then only because it's a  TV show, so you knew there had to be a reason for all that.

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

Wow, I've never noticed. Doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't have seatbelts in back, but I thought seatbelts in front started being standard earlier than '69! Interesting. I guess they can still pass inspection because the car is an antique?

They probably have the lap belts which they (whoever "they" are) have decided are more dangerous than no belt.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I think he thought she was calm and willing to go along with going back to the bunker to figure out a plan.  I legit didn't think she was a flight risk at that point until I noticed the boys lingering too long and Cas tossing the keys on the front seat.

The whole point of bringing it up was how much of a plot contrivance that whole scene was. I guess the farther back you pull the scope, the more contrived it becomes. Dean & Sam should've considered them both a flight risk, since Cas lied and fled as recently as that day.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The whole point of bringing it up was how much of a plot contrivance that whole scene was. I guess the farther back you pull the scope, the more contrived it becomes. Dean & Sam should've considered them both a flight risk, since Cas lied and fled as recently as that day.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood because I thought your original beef with the scene was limited to Cas' failures as a character vs plotonium being spread equally amongst TFW to put Kelly in the position to steal the Impala. 

1) It took the Impala being locked which happens but not ALL the time.

2) It took Dean tossing Cas the keys instead of going over and unlocking the door himself.

3) It took Dean and Sam having some extended conversation that doesn't put them in the car right away.

4) It took Cas allowing Kelly to sit up front and tossing the keys in the driver seat.

4 doses of plotonium = stolen Impala.

Edited April 30, 2017 by catrox14