Final thoughts on the series

[feelsfine]

I entitled this post "How History Is Made" because it reflects how I would have liked this series to end.  We've known since the beginning of this show that all the endeavors and feats of Captain Flint and Long John Silver had to end.

Piracy has to end, and civilization inevitably prevails.  But does its legacy survive?

We only know about these larger than life characters from the tales passed down generations.  And like Jack says, truth doesn't matter.  History is made by those who wield the power to write it.  A lesson for modern times as well.

Jack's ultimate punishment for Woodes Rogers was his ultimate reward -- to have a hand in writing his legacy.  And that for him was worse than Blackbeard's torture and death.  Indeed, we can compare the Wikipedia pages on the actual historical figures.

Overall, great series that deeply explored complex themes like loyalty, truth, sacrifice, family, and legacy.  The characters were great, the stories outstanding, and the finale exceptional.  I give it an A-.

A full recap with pictures and more thoughts are posted on Hashed:

https://hashed.io/c324/black-sails/t2574370/s04e10-series-finale

Edited April 3, 2017 by feelsfine

[JimGP1820]

Loved this whole series, then was massively let down in the finale. What a cop out! No way in the world do I buy that Flint would just go quietly into that good night. It actually ended with none of the major players getting killed? Are you kidding me? Like I said... COP OUT!

[Slovenly Muse]

40 minutes ago, JimGP1820 said:

Loved this whole series, then was massively let down in the finale. What a cop out! No way in the world do I buy that Flint would just go quietly into that good night. It actually ended with none of the major players getting killed? Are you kidding me? Like I said... COP OUT!

Unless you choose to believe the (more likely) possibility that Silver killed Flint on the island and then spun a story about magically reuniting him with Thomas in order to regain Madi's favour. (The old "farm upstate!") It would be better for Silver if Flint were dead (he could never start up his quest again, and no one else would ever learn the location of the treasure that Silver had bled for)... those guys brought those shovels and ropes to the island for SOMETHING, and it wasn't to dig up buried treasure. We never heard the plantation's overseer confirm to Silver's man that Thomas was there, and we never heard Silver make this offer to Flint... we only have his word after the fact that he didn't murder his best friend and cover it up by spinning some improbable tale about (really, truly, honestly!) reuniting him with his long lost love. It was left ambiguous enough that you could believe either outcome. 

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, JimGP1820 said:

Loved this whole series, then was massively let down in the finale. What a cop out! No way in the world do I buy that Flint would just go quietly into that good night. It actually ended with none of the major players getting killed? Are you kidding me? Like I said... COP OUT!

Sometimes I think that we've gotten so used to tragic and horrible endings that if an ending seems remotely happy then it's considered a cop out.  The show ended at a specific time, but if you know history or have read TI, you know that no one really got a "happily ever after."  

[Enero]

55 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Unless you choose to believe the (more likely) possibility that Silver killed Flint on the island and then spun a story about magically reuniting him with Thomas in order to regain Madi's favour. (The old "farm upstate!") It would be better for Silver if Flint were dead (he could never start up his quest again, and no one else would ever learn the location of the treasure that Silver had bled for)... those guys brought those shovels and ropes to the island for SOMETHING, and it wasn't to dig up buried treasure. We never heard the plantation's overseer confirm to Silver's man that Thomas was there, and we never heard Silver make this offer to Flint... we only have his word after the fact that he didn't murder his best friend and cover it up by spinning some improbable tale about (really, truly, honestly!) reuniting him with his long lost love. It was left ambiguous enough that you could believe either outcome. 

But why even make the offer to Flint in the first place? To except the deal to end the war or die, if Silver can't afford to have Flint wandering around in the world? Why not kill him out right without the ultimatum?

I think Flint was sent to Savannah to find Thomas. I think that was absolutely true. However, what he found there might've been completely different from the story Silver told to Madi (whether what he truly believes or a fiction he spun). 

Also at the beginning of TI

Spoiler

Flint has just died from drinking and supposedly given the map to the treasure to Billy. I still question whether Flint actually gave him that map.

So Silver couldn't have killed him. 

BOT - I thought the series was as a whole excellent. I think this was one of the few shows that made very good use of their limited episodes per season. It was rare that they wasted time on filler. They were always setting up the next story even when an episode was deemed slow. 

They really surprised me (pleasantly) with the ending we got and with the interesting relationships they built. Great work by TPTB and the actors. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Enero

[Neurochick]

For me, I didn't see the ending as happy.  It was like, the show stopped just before the shit hit the fan.  Before shit got real.

Spoiler

 

Jack Rackham was executed, Mary Reade died in childbirth, no one knows what happened to Anne Bonny.

Flint died alone, of alcoholism in Savannah.

Billy was so shell shocked by the thought of Silver that he dies just because he THINKS Silver is after him.

Woods Rogers did become governor of Nassau, after being in debtors prison I believe, maybe he was less of a douchebag the second time around...probably listened to Max that time.

Silver and Madi open a tavern or an inn in Bristol, so somehow they left Maroon island for England.  

 

So, no, the ending wasn't a happy one, but a bittersweet one when you read TI and history.

ETA, one more final thought.  You know why this show kicks ass, why I think it was superior to most shit on TV these days?  Because they didn't forget about a minor character like Mrs. Hudson.  Since last season all the woman wanted to do was to get back to her children and it was sweet to see her reading to them during that last sequence.  

A lesser show would have forgotten all about her.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Neurochick

[Enero]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

For me, I didn't see the ending as happy.  It was like, the show stopped just before the shit hit the fan.  Before shit got real.

  Hide contents

 

Jack Rackham was executed, Mary Reade died in childbirth, no one knows what happened to Anne Bonny.

Woods Rogers did become governor of Nassau, after being in debtors prison I believe, maybe he was less of a douchebag the second time around...probably listened to Max that time.

 

So, no, the ending wasn't a happy one, but a bittersweet one when you read TI and history.

Based on what we know eventually happens with Rogers and Rackham, I wonder how long things were good in Nassau with Featherstone as Governor and Rackham still pirating on the downlow? Though Mrs. Gutherie was still very much a player, she was elderly, which means she was likely not long for this world. The only thing that was keeping them (Max,Featherstone and Rackham) running Nassau was the power of Mrs. Gutherie. Once she died I'm sure chaos instantly ensued and perhaps was what brought

Spoiler

Rogers back into play since she purchased his debt. 

[Haleth]

I'd like to think everyone had a temporary happy ending, Flint James McGraw included.

It's a romantic notion, that the Pirates just wanted to be free of British persecution, but honestly, what were they thinking?  That they'd give up raiding and become respectable sailing merchants?  Jack, Anne, and eventually Silver made it clear going straight was not as appealing as the pirate life. We love all these characters but let us not forget, they were not good people.

That said, I think Black Sails is one of my favorite shows ever.  Every aspect was outstanding. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Haleth

[Winter Rose]

I'm admittedly the kind of person who complains that there's too many happy endings but then when something doesn't get one, I still get upset. I never even entertained the thought that this show could end happily, it certainly didn't for real life piracy (not that that's a bad thing but at times is hard to reconcile in a fictionalized account where we get the story from the pirates' POV). And any character not appearing in Treasure Island I was certain was a goner. That's not to say this isn't very much the calm before the storm but it was nice to see the characters get a reprieve, at least temporarily.

What does make me sad is that more people didn't know about this show. It wasn't another POTC. It was well acted and so beautifully written with well rounded characters and an engaging plot. It really picked up after S1.

[MaryMatts]

Quote

What does make me sad is that more people didn't know about this show. It wasn't another POTC. It was well acted and so beautifully written with well rounded characters and an engaging plot. It really picked up after S1.

Totally agree. Toby Smith also deserves an Emmy for his performance.  This was one of the best series ever.  All the way up there with Rome and Game of Thrones.  So sorry to see it end.

Edited April 8, 2017 by MaryMatts

[GodsBeloved]

Who is Toby Smith?

[Morrigan2575]

Just watched the finale and I fully expected Billy to find Flint dead on the island. I just don't buy that Flint gave it all up on the promise of Thomas being alive. 

As for the rest, I really liked Jack and Ann's ending, the promise of more time at sea.  I'm just going to pretend that's their happily ever after...

Edited April 9, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[magdalene]

This show turned out a lot better from what I expected when I first heard of it.  The combination of Starz + its producer had me thinking soft porn with pirate violence.  But the show improved with every season, the acting was terrific, especially by the likes of Toby Stephens, Luke Arnold and Toby Schmitz.  The writers knew what they were doing, they had a plan for their characters arcs, and they stuck with their plan.  Which makes the show easy to recommend to newbies and fun to re-watch.

What more can you ask of a TV series.

[MaryMatts]

On 4/8/2017 at 1:33 PM, GodsBeloved said:

Who is Toby Smith?

Lol, obviously typo which I didn't notice at the time: Toby Stephens of course, :)

[MaryMatts]

On 4/9/2017 at 2:00 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

 I just don't buy that Flint gave it all up on the promise of Thomas being alive.

Flint has to be alive otherwise how did Billy get the map to the treasure in the book?  It makes no sense to have Silver off him.

Here's an interesting and convincing argument:  

http://uniwolfwerecorn.tumblr.com/post/159308610775/black-sails-the-finale-and-everything

[Tanya852]

On 09.04.2017 at 9:00 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

I just don't buy that Flint gave it all up on the promise of Thomas being alive.

But that's not how it happened? They had to tie him up and at first he resisted because he couldn't believe that Thomas is alive. The promise alone wasn't enough to make him give up. Which is understandable. But once he saw that Thomas is alive, that's when he finally let go of the war.

[Enero]

2 hours ago, Tanya852 said:

But that's not how it happened? They had to tie him up and at first he resisted because he couldn't believe that Thomas is alive. The promise alone wasn't enough to make him give up. Which is understandable. But once he saw that Thomas is alive, that's when he finally let go of the war.

Exactly. I actually think Flint conceded to Silver because that's what he does when in a tight spot. He concedes to his enemy while planning his escape and how he's going to fight another day. The only time he didn't do this was when he and the crew of the Walrus were imprisoned by the Maroons. At this time, he was still mourning Miranda and had no fight left until Silver gave him a pep talk.

I believe Flint accepted life over death with the intent to somehow fight his way out of being neutralized, but seeing that Thomas was alive stopped that IMHO. 

I don't understand why there was even a debate as to whether Flint was alive or dead at the end of BS. The events of TI wouldn't be possible if Flint weren't still alive. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Enero

[cali1981]

Brilliant, highly literate writing and a superb cast playing complex characters that did that writing justice were the hallmarks of this series.  IMHO it is one of the finest works ever to grace our TV screens.  Everyone connected with Black Sails and Starz should be very proud of what they gave us throughout its run.  I liked the finale and believed Silver's revealing Flint's fate.  Even if I had doubts, I wanted to believe it.  Flint, in his own way, was a heroic but tragic figure having lost Thomas and then Miranda, his last link to Thomas.  His reunion with Thomas was very satisfying. However dangerous Silver and Flint felt each other was, as the series progressed the each man appeared to develop a mutual respect and admiration for the other's intelligence so, yes, I could see Silver offering Flint the choice that he did.

Edited April 11, 2017 by cali1981

[Tanya852]

Everything about this show is brilliant: the story, the characters, actors, production quality, music, cinematography, etc. A true gem and I hope with time they will get the recognition they deserve.

Personally, I'm grateful to them for the character of Flint. I've never seen a character like him before and Toby Stephens has been phenomenal from start to finish, never once faltering. And I thank them for reuniting him with Thomas (though I would've prefered a more clear ending). A complete Odysseus journey. It's not too happy (they are in a freaking labor camp. I hope they'll break out), it's not too tragic (if Flint was killed by Silver, then his entire life and even death were for nothing), it's bittersweet (according to Jon Steinberg, Flint will drink himself to death when Thomas dies of old age. I don't want to think about that, but at least they will have their 20 years of peace).

[haje]

I just finished marathoning this show in the last two weeks and I am so so glad I did. I heard about it when it first premiered but the violence against Max in particular really turned me off the first season, Game of Thrones has already given me my fair share of unnecessary sexual violence against female characters thank you very much, but after hearing about how much it improved in its second season and beyond and that it was ending soon I decided to give it a chance and this show isn't perfect but gosh, season 2 really got things going and I don't think the show ever faltered. 

It still has its problems but the fact that the show gave us 4 queer main characters, all 3 of whom survive and get a "happy" ending, is incredible. The fact that they gave us Madi, Eleanor, Max, Anne and even the secondary female characters like Miranda, Abigail, Idelle and Grandma Guthrie, who were all fascinating, complicated female characters is something I will be forever grateful for. 

On 4/11/2017 at 6:05 AM, Tanya852 said:

Everything about this show is brilliant: the story, the characters, actors, production quality, music, cinematography, etc. A true gem and I hope with time they will get the recognition they deserve.

Personally, I'm grateful to them for the character of Flint. I've never seen a character like him before and Toby Stephens has been phenomenal from start to finish, never once faltering. And I thank them for reuniting him with Thomas (though I would've prefered a more clear ending). A complete Odysseus journey. It's not too happy (they are in a freaking labor camp. I hope they'll break out), it's not too tragic (if Flint was killed by Silver, then his entire life and even death were for nothing), it's bittersweet (according to Jon Steinberg, Flint will drink himself to death when Thomas dies of old age. I don't want to think about that, but at least they will have their 20 years of peace).

Toby Stephens was something to behold and I will always be sad he never got the recognition he deserved for playing this character but he'll always have my heart. Flint is one of the best tv characters, performed and written, I have seen in a very long time. The fact that he is a queer character makes him even more special. The speech he gives in the finale to Silver regarding the darkness and illuminating it, taken in context his backstory and his sexuality, is even more of a punch of a gut. I will be forever grateful for this show for this character (and for Max, who I love as well and who I am so happy got her own happy ending). 

[Tanya852]

3 hours ago, haje said:

The speech he gives in the finale to Silver regarding the darkness and illuminating it, taken in context his backstory and his sexuality, is even more of a punch of a gut.

I bawled during that speech (and on rewatches too). It's an incredible monologue.

[Ottis]

This is one of maybe 2-3 series finales that I have watched multiple times. And each time, the impact is greater. Both regarding the characters, who I realized I already sorely miss, and for me. I didn't realized how much I enjoyed Black Sails, and all of its tales.

I didn't understand the pirate perspective, at least in the long-term, for much of the series. This season I saw and heard  enough that I got there, mostly. That added to my interest in what happened. And the ending narration from Rackham, about who writes history and which tales are remembered, was just brilliant. We saw what happened on the show, and if we take the show's overall themes as being accurate, we know what what we read in real life in history isn't exactly right.

As for the finale, I originally came down on the side of Silvers shooting Flint (TI be damned). But after watching it a few times, I may be leaning the other way, for one probably stupid reason. In telling the tale of Flint's reunion with Thomas, we see Flint in handcuffs that he must be released from to walk to Thomas. If Silvers is embellishing a happy tale, why would handcuffs be part of that vision? Emphasizing the "prison" part of prison doesn't seem helpful to either Silver's mental visualization (and justification) of a made up tale, or to the telling of a made up tale to Madi. It would only be included if it actually happened (as part of routine prison procedures), and Silvers includes it because he knows of it. A small thing, but I keep returning to it.

[LydiaMoon1]

My takeaway from the series is that Black Sails was about LJS and his quest to gain treasure by hook or by crook and live the life he dreamed. In the beginning, his dream was securing the urca de lima gold, but, once he fell for Madi Scott, she became his treasure and he was willing to do whatever was necessary to have her.  His story in both Black Sails and TI end the same.  He reunites with his "Ole Missus".  She is to the only treasure that really matters to LJS.

Edited April 17, 2017 by LydiaMoon1

[Neurochick]

On April 17, 2017 at 10:09 AM, LydiaMoon1 said:

My takeaway from the series is that Black Sails was about LJS and his quest to gain treasure by hook or by crook and live the life he dreamed. In the beginning, his dream was securing the urca de lima gold, but, once he fell for Madi Scott, she became his treasure and he was willing to do whatever was necessary to have her.  His story in both Black Sails and TI end the same.  He reunites with his "Ole Missus".  She is to the only treasure that really matters to LJS.

This is true and not true at the same time.  Flint did tell Silver right, that Silver would NOT be content with domesticity.  TI lead me to believe that Silver was still doing illegal stuff, he was still with Madi but there was a restless there.  But I do agree that Silver always came back to her.  

To me, Silver and Flint were very much alike.  Silver never understood Flint's motivation, his rage, until he thought Madi was dead; if Madi actually was dead, then Silver would be on Flint's team, "let's destroy the whole world!"  But what stopped Silver was Madi, that she was alive; that's how Silver knew what would stop Flint.  In reality, Silver did kill Flint, because he and we, the audience knew that Flint was a made up character and James McGraw was the real person.

[Tanya852]

A fantastic analysis on Flint and his fate:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackSails/comments/6704d3/flint_flint_rum_rum_sea_sea_foreshadowing_flints/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackSails/comments/6704d3/flint_flint_rum_rum_sea_sea_foreshadowing_flints/dgmmjk3/

[Enero]

Though this show was probably one of the most well written in recent years, I do feel they could've done more with the Maroons.

I know that Flint was the 'A' story and Silver was the 'B' story and therefore most things had to circle back to them. However, Luke Arnold was right when he said Flint and Silver were getting in the way of the Maroon story. I would've liked to have seen the show spend a little less time on grand speeches (from Flint, Silver and even Rackham) and a little more time on the Maroon's plight - the conflict of going to war vs staying out of it. Imagine the conflict that likely arose when the other Maroon Chiefs learned that the Queen allowed Silver to take the cache in order to save Madi? Julius was an interesting character with a fascinating perspective on the war, being as he'd just freed himself from enslavement. When he was introduced, I thought he was going to turn into a true player in all that was happening but his potential was never realized. 

Madi was kind of abandoned too. She was left to languish in captivity in the bowels of Rogers' ship while Silver, Flint and the other men made decisions and fought the war (I didn't like how the women were sidelined the last few episodes, just when things were heating up). It would've been great if her and Julian had spoke. I don't even think they shared a scene on screen which was sacrilege. How rich that conversation would've been, a man who'd been enslaved, who knows first hand the brutality of slavery, not wanting the war, speaking with a young woman who'd been a Maroon almost her entire life - never experiencing the horrors of slavery first hand- vehemently wanting to fight. That would've been a great conversation that could've been used to add more layers to Silver's betrayal.

Also, what happened to Eme? Did she escape to Maroon Island when the Spanish invaded? Was she captured with the others who were left behind in Nassau and enslaved again? Did she somehow make it through it all and continued working at the tavern once Featherstone became Governor?

Regarding Silver and the war, I always felt like he was in part along for the ride until he met Madi. He was brave, badass and a fighter, but I never believed he was fully invested in Flint's cause. I think he was just following Flint's lead because what else could he do being an invalid. But when he met Madi (and her people) I think he found a stake in Flint's war and saw that something good could potentially come from it -freedom for the Maroons. However, when they invaded Nassau and he saw the magnitude of what they'd done (and that the English would not be so easily disposed) and really the horror of it all, he began to doubt that they'd reach the desired outcome. Discovering Thomas was alive and of course seeing Madi get pulled deeper into Flint's vortex made his decision to "undermine" the war, and the "how to do it" simpler, but I believe even if he had not learned about Thomas and Madi had not "died" he would've eventually clashed with her and Flint about continuing the war once it went beyond Nassau.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Enero
Because I can't spell on this iPad. ?

[GodsBeloved]

I agree @Enero about the Maroon story. How I wish there was more about them instead of the long speeches by Flint and Silver.

I too had high hopes for Julius and wanted to see a debate between him and Madi. I loved it when he pointed out the lunacy in believing Flint's bullshit but alas all that got lost and Silver is made out to be the bad guy. I also hated the way Madi was handled in the last few episodes. She was sidelined and then when we finally see her again in full light, she's flashing the teeth and some think that was all about Flint. She was smiling because of him, not because the pirates had overtaken Rodgers' ship.

I especially hated the voice over by Jack talking about Flint's allies would find a way to continue the war had he died and the camera spans to Madi. What pissed me off is it left the impression that Madi wouldn't find a way to continue the war to honor those voices she heard, her people, her trusted bodyguard Kofi,  her mother, her father but had the story been Flint had died then Madi would have found a way to continue the war to honor him. That is beyond gross.

But anywho, I agree with Luke Arnold. Flint and crew were in the way of the Maroon story. I will say I also think part of the problem was they found out 1/2 way into filming season 4 that the show was being cancelled. Maybe if they got 1 more season, the Maroon story would have gotten more focus.

Edited April 24, 2017 by GodsBeloved

[MaryMatts]

Spoiler

 

But anywho, I agree with Luke Arnold. Flint and crew were in the way of the Maroon story. I will say I also think part of the problem was they found out 1/2 way into filming season 4 that the show was being cancelled. Maybe if they got 1 more season, the Maroon story would have gotten more focus.

I think you're wrong about them finding out the show was cancelled.  It wasn't cancelled at all: the show runners  decided they'd reached the end of the story and decided to end it on a high note.  I think they knew they were ending it before the beginning of season 4.

This story was always about Silver and Flint -- they were the focus of the series not the Maroons.  I think the Maroons were only included to find a way to give Silver his "African wife" and thus tie it in with TI.  I have to say I never really believed in the Silver/Madi love story.  It seemed contrived and forced.  Maybe it was the lack of chemistry between the two actors but it sure didn't work for me.  I never really cared about the Maroon story -  the main focus was always Flint and he was the one I always rooted for.  His happy ending with Thomas was more than satisfying and (almost) made up for the end of an excellent series.

Edited April 28, 2017 by MaryMatts

[Enero]

58 minutes ago, MaryMatts said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I think the Maroons were only included to find a way to give Silver his "African wife" and thus tie it in with TI. 

 JS stated that they were always going to address slavery. Being that BS was about 18th century pirates in the Caribbean they knew they had to explore that institution that was integral to the islands.  Whether Silver had found his African wife there or not, they were going to do a little more with slavery than having it as some horror going on in the background of pirate intrigue.

That said, JS did say that he always found it fascinating that Silver would CHOOSE an African wife in a time when such a thing was illegal. So adding Madi (who wasn't apart of their early brainstorms about the Maroons), finding a way to incorporate the love story between her and Silver into all that was going on was probably gravy for him.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Enero

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I think you're wrong about them finding out the show was cancelled.  It wasn't cancelled at all: the show runners  decided they'd reached the end of the story and decided to end it on a high note.  I think they knew they were ending it before the beginning of season 4.

Not according to Luke Arnold. In a post series interview, he said they didn't find out the show was ending until 1/2 way in.

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Enero said:

 JS stated that they were always going to address slavery. Being that BS was about 18th century pirates in the Caribbean they knew they had to explore that institution that was integral to the islands.  Whether Silver had found his African wife there or not, they were going to do a little more with slavery than having it as some horror going on in the background of pirate intrigue.

That said, JS did say that he always found it fascinating that Silver would CHOOSE an African wife in a time when such a thing was illegal. So adding Madi (who wasn't apart of their early brainstorms about the Maroons), finding a way to incorporate the love story between her and Silver into all that was going on was probably gravy for him.

I heard that interview too. He talked about really loving Zethu Dlomo and Moshidi Motshegwa and how what they thought would be 1 role ended up being 2, Madi and the Maroon Queen.

[LydiaMoon1]

On 4/22/2017 at 8:58 AM, Neurochick said:

This is true and not true at the same time.  Flint did tell Silver right, that Silver would NOT be content with domesticity.  TI lead me to believe that Silver was still doing illegal stuff, he was still with Madi but there was a restless there.  But I do agree that Silver always came back to her.  

While I agree that Silver still did illegal stuff, I disagree that it was because he was discontent.  In TI and in the Black Sails portrayal of Sllver, he struck me as someone who saw piracy as a tool and a means to an end, rather than a way of life.  Early in the show, he was envisioning the life he would lead with the Urca gold.  Later, he envisioned the life he would lead with Madi.  Either way, a pirate's life never seemed to be his goal.  For me, that explains why he was the only pirate who married, and why he later felt entirely comfortable going back and forth between respectability and illegality.  I can easily see him as someone who would use piracy to make a few bucks or have a little adventure, but that doesn't signal to me that he was discontent in his life with Madi.  I think he just continued to be wily and opportunistic.  Of course, YMMV.

Edited April 24, 2017 by LydiaMoon1

[Tanya852]

They didn't treat TI as a gospel. They took it and added layers to it. In TI, Silver and Flint weren't close, but in BS their relationship is much more complex. In TI, Silver wasn't a king or even famous, but he is in BS. The same with his motives. In TI, he was just a charming rogue. In BS, his motives for returning after the treasure are much more complex.

As they said, TI is a children's version of adult story. In TI everything is simple, good guys are good, pirates are greedy dumbasses. And then you watch BS and what "really" happened and like, wow, so many layers.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Tanya852

[GodsBeloved]

On 4/24/2017 at 8:16 AM, LydiaMoon1 said:

While I agree that Silver still did illegal stuff, I disagree that it was because he was discontent.  In TI and in the Black Sails portrayal of Sllver, he struck me as someone who saw piracy as a tool and a means to an end, rather than a way of life.  Early in the show, he was envisioning the life he would lead with the Urca gold.  Later, he envisioned the life he would lead with Madi.  Either way, a pirate's life never seemed to be his goal.  For me, that explains why he was the only pirate who married, and why he later felt entirely comfortable going back and forth between respectability and illegality.  I can easily see him as someone who would use piracy to make a few bucks or have a little adventure, but that doesn't signal to me that he was discontent in his life with Madi.  I think he just continued to be wily and opportunistic.  Of course, YMMV.

I agree. Silver didn't seem to be after the pirate's life. I am not sure Flint necessarily meant that a pirate's life was what would fulfill Silver instead of a life of domesticity. He said something about leaving the treasure in the ground when he switched tactics from Silver losing Madi to Silver being discontent. Maybe Flint thought the idea of never getting his hands on the treasure would make Silver change his mind about continuing a fruitless war. 

I laugh though at the idea of Flint implying that Silver wouldn't be content with a life of domesticity given his conversation with Charles Vane in 3-8.

Vane could understand a woman's desire for domesticity but not a man's. Flint responds with I can't understand how you can not understand. You have no instinct toward earning for yourself a life more comfortable. 

That is one of the unintentional funny moments in BS for me and even more so now. ? 

Edited April 29, 2017 by GodsBeloved

[Tanya852]

11 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Maybe Flint thought the idea of never getting his hands on the treasure would make Silver change his mind about continuing a fruitless war.

Not exactly. It's not the treasure as it is, but what it represents. Their sacrifices, their dreams and hopes, their legacy, etc.

[Enero]

24 minutes ago, Tanya852 said:

Not exactly. It's not the treasure as it is, but what it represents. Their sacrifices, their dreams and hopes, their legacy, etc.

I don't think their hopes and dreams were the same, never had been.  At the point of that conversation Silver was visibly exhausted - physically and emotionally and IMO felt as if he'd sacrificed enough for Flint's hopes and dreams, and was not going to sacrifice more for him and lose his own hopes and dreams which was a life with Madi.

Though Silver embraced the persona of Long John Silver, he IMO had no desire to be this pirate king he was made out to be. He even stated this in no uncertain terms a couple of times. Being LJS was, as @LydiaMoon1 so eloquently pointed out, a means to an end for him. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Enero

[Tanya852]

5 minutes ago, Enero said:

I think their dreams and hopes were not the same, never had been.

I meant in a general sense and not just the two of them. :) Like what Jack says in 3x09 (Vane's sacrifice, Anne's lost love, etc).

Edited April 24, 2017 by Tanya852

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Enero said:

@LydiaMoon1At the point of that conversation Silver was visibly exhausted - physically and emotionally and IMO felt as if he'd sacrificed enough for Flint's hopes and dreams, and was not going to sacrifice more for him and lose his own hopes and dreams which was a life with Madi.

I agree. Silver said he wanted a life with Madi, not war with England. He said he didn't care about a legacy in that he didn't care how history painted them. I don't think all he sacrificed mattered to him anymore, if it ever did. I think Billy's words shook Silver ... if anyone is at risk of being consumed by his need for this war, it's her ... and that was when he decided to devise an exit plan and Max dropping that knowledge about plantations for "troubled" relatives gave Silver something to work with.

Edited April 24, 2017 by GodsBeloved

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Enero said:

Though Silver embraced the persona of Long John Silver, he IMO had no desire to be this pirate king he was made out to be. He even stated this in no uncertain terms a couple of times. Being LJS was, as @LydiaMoon1 so eloquently pointed out, a means to an end for him. 

We even have Jack, in his telling of LJS's story, saying those who stood to benefit most from it were the most eager to leave it all behind.

[MaryMatts]

 JS stated that they were always going to address slavery. Being that BS was about 18th century pirates in the Caribbean they knew they had to explore that institution that was integral to the islands.  Whether Silver had found his African wife there or not, they were going to do a little more with slavery than having it as some horror going on in the background of pirate intrigue.

Yes but the Maroon story was a minor part of BS. I saw them more as a part of the plot  for the Pirates to gain allies than actually addressing slavery.

That said, JS did say that he always found it fascinating that Silver would CHOOSE an African wife in a time when such a thing was illegal. So adding Madi (who wasn't apart of their early brainstorms about the Maroons), finding a way to incorporate the love story between her and Silver into all that was going on was probably gravy for him.

Yes but was it actually illegal?  I'm sure it wasn't in the UK though it might have been in colonies (what was definitely illegal was homosexuality and men were hung for it).  And anyway, why would they have cared in Nassau (since it was a lawless territory) if Silver had an African wife?  If Pirates stole, murdered, pillaged and raped, a minor thing like a white man living with a black woman would not have raised many eyebrows, I would think.

 

"Inter-ethnic marriage began occurring more often in Britain since the 17th century, when the British East India Companybegan bringing over many Indian scholars, lascars,servants and workers. Though mixed marriages were not always accepted in British society, there were no legal restrictions against intermarriage at the time."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage

[MaryMatts]

Just a question I haven't seen addressed anywhere yet: does anyone else think that Thomas would have a huge problem recognizing Flint as James McGraw?  I mean he looked so much younger in Series 2 and his hair was black (why, I wonder?).  Then this much older looking, bald man comes up and he immediately recognizes James?

They did a great job ageing TS - I thought Flint was unrecognizable as James - his faced alsomseemd so much more lined and wrinkled.

[Enero]

4 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

Quote

That said, JS did say that he always found it fascinating that Silver would CHOOSE an African wife in a time when such a thing was illegal. So adding Madi (who wasn't apart of their early brainstorms about the Maroons), finding a way to incorporate the love story between her and Silver into all that was going on was probably gravy for him.

Yes but was it actually illegal?  I'm sure it wasn't in the UK though it might have been in colonies (what was definitely illegal was homosexuality and men were hung for it).  And anyway, why would they have cared in Nassau (since it was a lawless territory) if Silver had an African wife?  If Pirates stole, murdered, pillaged and raped, a minor thing like a white man living with a black woman would not have raised many eyebrows, I would think.

 

"Inter-ethnic marriage began occurring more often in Britain since the 17th century, when the British East India Companybegan bringing over many Indian scholars, lascars,servants and workers. Though mixed marriages were not always accepted in British society, there were no legal restrictions against intermarriage at the time."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage

What you posted says nothing about Africans marrying into white society in England.  Wikipedia is not the best source for a history lesson considering anyone can update it with "facts." With the British colonies outlawing interracial marriage in the Americas between blacks and whites, I'm guessing it was also outlawed in "civilized" England or at the very least greatly frowned upon.

That said, the Caribbean, specifically the Bahamas, does have a history of white men marrying "women of color." However, there were not records of this until the late 18th century, early 19th century, nearly 100 years after BS/TI. And even then those men married mulattos - basically women who looked like Max and could pass for white (Race Relations in the Bahamas by Whittington Johnson). There was a culture of extreme prejudice against free women and men of color who were not of mixed race i.e. like Madi and her people. Thus a white man, especially like Silver who already had several strikes against him being disabled, a pirate and not a man of status and means, would not be making his life any easier by choosing a dark-skinned African wife. 

With regards to Nassau, at the end of BS it was no longer the lawless land that it had been before. Yes Jack was still on the account, but he had to do that on the downlow and if he got caught, which he eventually did, he hung for it.  Nassau was a "civilized" island being governed under the laws of England. Therefore, I doubt Madi had the freedom to up and move there and live with Silver as a free woman. Though they'd signed the treaty I'm sure freedom only applied to Maroon Island (as such historical treaties did that were reached with the Maroons) not all the English isles. 

Thoughts on Flint, I know some speculated that the money exchanging hands when he was dropped off at the plantation meant that perhaps Thomas' freedom was purchased and he and Flint left that place to start over. However, Silver (or was it Max?) stated that the guy who ran that place made his fortune by taking in "troubled" men from prominent English families. So I think the money exchanged was payment to the plantation to take Flint. I wonder if Silver had to pay double for them to agree to take him? Considering his notoriety I'd think it would take some convincing for anyone to want to house/imprison James Flint. ? 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Enero

[MaryMatts]

Quote

What you posted says nothing about Africans marrying into white society in England.  Wikipedia is not the best source for a history lesson considering anyone can update it with "facts." With the British colonies outlawing interracial marriage in the Americas between blacks and whites, I'm guessing it was also outlawed in "civilized" England or at the very least greatly frowned upon.

I very much doubt it was illegal and it does say at the end of the paragraph, "there were no legal restrictions against intermarriages at the time".  Of course, if you won't accept Wikipedia, there's nothing I can do about that though why anyone would like  about that is beyond me.  Frowned upon definitely (especially the higher in society you went) but illegal?  No, never heard of such a law in the UK though it was apparently illegal in the colonies and then the US.  That being said, I still don't think Silver would have had a problem with an African wife.  He was quite low on the social scale and I doubt sailors and common people (especially in a port) would have been too bothered about an innkeeper cohabiting with an African woman.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/oct/04/mixed-race-britain-social-history

As to Flint and Thomas, since they gave us a bit of an open ending, I prefer to think they only stayed in the plantation just as long as Flint felt like it.  I can't imagine him not breaking out of such a flimsy prison the minute he decided he wanted out and taking Thomas with him.

Edited April 30, 2017 by MaryMatts

[GreyBunny]

Just got caught up.  I loved the ending, everyone ended up where they needed to be, and in the end, this whole thing was a love story.  It's dark, twisted, and violent, but a love story nonetheless, not only for Flint, but for most of the other main characters as well. I really enjoyed the close friendship Flint and Silver developed and how they got into each other's heads, they knew each other so well.  

It was fun seeing the debut of Calico Jack's pirate flag and we got to meet Anne's future pirate partner, Mary Read, disguised as "Mark."  With the introduction of Skeleton Island, the last three episodes really felt connected to Treasure Island. 

I think Flint was happy on the plantation until Thomas died (I'm guessing he died first) and then lonely, broken Flint drank himself to death.

[LydiaMoon1]

The writers (and the actors) don't get nearly the credit they deserve for giving us Madi/Silver.  Their arc was a marvelous piece of storytelling that came full circle.  While I was expecting Madi to become John Silver's tether to save him from Flint's darkness, the writers switched it up on me. Silver wound up becoming Madi's tether instead. He pulled her away from Flint's perpetual war and the blood lust that was consuming her.  Plus, they gave us the sad irony of Billy, who was (except for the Underhill Plantation debacle) right about everything he warned Silver about, but so wrong in the way he went about proving it. It really was masterful storytelling.

[Hiacios]

I am utterly disappointed in this series finale. I'll be honest tho the gay thing threw everything off. lol. The show was never the same after they added that dumb shit.

[FnkyChkn34]

I'm only on season 3, but I gotta ask - is this show written by a high school drama club? The Flint and Vane stories are tolerable so far, but the Jack/Anne/Max scenes have some of the worst dialogue ever spoken on scripted television. I don't blame the actors; they are good. The writers are pretty awful. 

[lmdreamer]

I am currently binging on hulu and on season 4.  Were there a lot of commercials on starz when this was airing?  The 'insert commercial here' spots are very annoying and it seems to get worse in season 4.

Edited June 10, 2018 by lmdreamer

[Bort]

5 minutes ago, lmdreamer said:

I am currently binging on hulu and on season 4.  Were there a lot of commercials on starz when this was airing?  The 'insert commercial here' spots are very annoying and it seems to get worse in season 4.

Black Sails originally aired on Starz, which doesn't have commercials, it's a premium pay channel.

[lmdreamer]

Just now, kariyaki said:

Black Sails originally aired on Starz, which doesn't have commercials, it's a premium pay channel.

I thought so that's why I didn't understand all of the fade in and fade outs.  There were a lot of them in the first episode, season 4.