S02.E16: Doomworld

[Proteus]

11 hours ago, twoods said:

I love this show, but am hating the writers for crapping on Snart's character. He died a hero's death, yet now he's a vengeful asshole who killed Amaya. Why, show, why? 

2 hours ago, kirinan said:

That's what I would like to know. Sometimes I think the writers on these DC shows just write out plot points on a deck of cards, throw them up in the air, and whatever gets grabbed up in a game of 52 Pickup gets filmed the next episode. Clearly the character cards get lost behind the couch.

 

This isn't the Snart that died a heroes death. This is a Snart before he was ever redeemed.

[Argenta]

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

Clean, abundant energy, food and water are really good ends for the people that lack them.  If me or my (admittedly hypothetical) kids were dying from that lack, I'd be inclined to bow down to Eobard Thawne if he was going to provide a permanent remedy for that situation.  Sure Thawne is a shitty human being.  So were Henry Ford and Thomas Edison, but I wouldn't want to go without cars or light bulbs.  I don't mind that the Legends will ultimately decide to do what they need to restore things, I just wish that the costs of that restoration had been even a small part of the discussion.

This. 

I don't disagree with the posters who have detailed the many Very Bad Things about a country (world?) under Eobard's rule. The lack of free will, etc. And, I suspect that Eobard's motivation was less altruistic/humanitarian and more about setting himself challenges and making himself great and prominent. However, I think there's room for pragmatism here. Climate change - access to clean water, food and energy - those are some of the biggest issues facing the human race, especially as our population keeps climbing, and they're a cause or potential cause of great suffering for millions. So, I don't think the impact of Thawne solving those problems should be lightly dismissed. 

As johntfs said, I fully expect the Legends to restore the original reality - I do think it should at least be acknowledged that there's a major downside to doing so, as well. 

[jhlipton]

On 3/28/2017 at 10:02 PM, Last Time Lord said:

This was a ton of fun, but man, I was not expecting Amara to be frozen and shattered like that.

I was really enjoying this episode.   But I stopped and deleted the episode, and won't watch the finale.  F**k this show for killing the black woman.  Hey, maybe, just maybe, they'll do us a favor and un-"fridge" her (literally)... sometime...

Racism sucks.

On 3/28/2017 at 10:12 PM, kirinan said:

this was by far the best episode of the season,

It was, until it became the worst.

On 3/28/2017 at 10:49 PM, kismet said:

Just realized, the entire Justice League from the premiere/early episodes are currently dead.

Isn't StarGirl alive in Camelot?

On 3/29/2017 at 7:05 PM, Miss Dee said:

Oh God, don't say it! I have a week to pretend everything is going to be all right!

Don't worry, it's only Amya who's in danger.  Not Sara.

[johntfs]

27 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I was really enjoying this episode.   But I stopped and deleted the episode, and won't watch the finale.  F**k this show for killing the black woman.  Hey, maybe, just maybe, they'll do us a favor and un-"fridge" her (literally)... sometime...

Racism sucks.

Amaya is the one with the big destiny that leads to present day Vixen.  Of all the Legends, she's the one who has to live.  If she hadn't been murdered, it's possible the group might have ultimately accepted Doomworld as the new reality.  Her death has galvanized the team to risk time itself to bring her and the rest of reality back.  It wasn't racism, just storytelling.  It's no different than most other "alternate timeline" stories where horrible stuff happens to the regulars on a show and gets undone when the timeline is restored.  There's a really good chance that all the Doomworld Legends  will die in the next episode leaving the regular team, including Amaya alive.

[mac123x]

I'm changing my mind from last week.  I don't want Snart back on this show now.  They've made him unforgivable to me, and it'd be character assassination for the other characters to ever accept him back.

 

On 3/29/2017 at 0:02 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yeah. I'm wondering why they didn't just release Black Flash or whoever that zombie Flash is, to take Thawne down a peg, or just so I could see that smug smirk falter and disappear from Thawne's face.

I figured that was what the other Legion of Doomers were doing while the Legends were distracting Thawne.  I guess it's Chekhov's gun for next week.

[Miss Dee]

If Miller were staying on this show full-time, I could see them starting a long journey towards redemption for him...or, using the Spear to bring back Vanishing Point-Snart.

But as long as Snart is working on the show on a guest-star level, I'm thinking they want to keep him in villain mode for a while. Murdering Amaya was certainly a signpost for that.

@jhlipton, I know why this is a sore spot for you - we're both survivors of Sleepy Hollow - and you're right in that we have so few women of colour in the Arrowverse that it's really shitty for one of them to die like that. I can see why it happened: they needed to villainize Snart in such a way as to make it impossible for this Snart and Mick to reunite, and Mick loved Amaya as much as or maybe even more than Nate did.

If I thought for even one moment the death would stick, I'd be really disturbed that Amaya was almost literally fridged for Mick's manpain. However, not only do I think it won't stick, but I think there's a high chance Mick will sacrifice his own life to save all the Legends, and it'll be Amaya who embodies his love for them because his love is strongest for her.

That's why I'm dreading next week. Mick is my favourite character in the Arrowverse and I'm just dreading that this redemption story for him is because he's dying at the end of it.

I do think Amaya will leave at the end of the season because they set it up like that at the beginning with the knowledge that she was Mari's grandmother - she *has* to go back or the Arrowverse is going to lose another woman of colour. But I'd bet real money either she's not dead at the end of the season, or all the Doomworld Legends are dead with her and only the 1915 ones are alive.

Or - and this would be a ballsy move - they actually kill off some 1915 ones and some post-Doomworld ones, and the crew that boards the Waverider at the end of the season is a mix of each group.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Miss Dee

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I do think Amaya will leave at the end of the season because they set it up like that at the beginning with the knowledge that she was Mari's grandmother - she *has* to go back or the Arrowverse is going to lose another woman of colour. But I'd bet real money either she's not dead at the end of the season, or all the Doomworld Legends are dead with her and only the 1915 ones are alive.

Or - and this would be a ballsy move - they actually kill off some 1915 ones and some post-Doomworld ones, and the crew that boards the Waverider at the end of the season is a mix of each group.

She may have to go back, but there's no reason she, her daughter and her entire village (what is this, Once Upon a Time???) have to die for Mari to exist, or to become a superheroine. 

re the mix: Replace Nate with the original Captain Steel for a start!  (Imagine Amaya pulling Steel -- who was already her lover -- into her quarters murmuring about what she's learned since 1915!)  And replace Mick with Star-Girl (or pull "Merlin" from Camelot -- two women of color, and a lesbian pair as leads!).  That I would watch!

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

She may have to go back, but there's no reason she, her daughter and her entire village (what is this, Once Upon a Time???) have to die for Mari to exist, or to become a superheroine. 

 

But the destruction of Amaya's village is part/reason of Mari's origin. Unless you would just prefer a retcon of Mari's origin story? It's a fact, that most heroes' origin stories come out due to tragedy.

[jhlipton]

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

But the destruction of Amaya's village is part/reason of Mari's origin. Unless you would just prefer a retcon of Mari's origin story? It's a fact, that most heroes' origin stories come out due to tragedy.

Most but not all -- and I prefer the ones that don't.  How about someone who gets a power and wants to use it for good, just because doing good is the right thing to do.  Call her Social Justice Warrior! 
In fact, from the history of Vixen:
 

Quote

In ancient Ghana, the warrior Tantu asked Anansi the Spider to create a totem that would give the wearer all of the powers of the animal kingdom, only if they would use the power to protect the innocent. Tantu used the totem to become Africa's first legendary hero.

I don't see how Amaya got the token, but it doesn't seem like it was through tragedy.  In the history above, it doesn't sound like Vixen stated fighting crime out of tragedy -- more because a villain wanted the token.  It doesn't sound like her village was destroyed in the comic, either.

[Lokiberry]

7 hours ago, jhlipton said:

re the mix: Replace Nate with the original Captain Steel for a start!  (Imagine Amaya pulling Steel -- who was already her lover -- into her quarters murmuring about what she's learned since 1915!)  And replace Mick with Star-Girl (or pull "Merlin" from Camelot -- two women of color, and a lesbian pair as leads!). 

It wasn't Commander Steel. Amaya was in love with Hourman, who died in 2x01. She came with the Legends to get revenge on the person who killed him. Star-Girl/Merlin chose  to stay in Camelot because she was in love with Arthur.

I'm not sure who the other woman of color and/or lesbian is. Do you mean Guinevere?

ETA: Also, Sara isn't a lesbian, she's bisexual.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Lokiberry

[Miss Dee]

You can replace any other white guy, but don't touch Mick. LOL

I'd like to think that Amaya, armed with knowledge of the future, is able to change the fate of her village without compromising Mari's existence. I guess we'll see.

[Argenta]

I laughed out loud several times during this episode. The writers are particularly good at silly fun and witty quips, and they were coming thick and fast. A few standout moments:

-Nate. I liked him in this one, and his air quotes in the car with Mick were great. 

-Everyone's reflexive reaction to having their memories restored being to punch Mick. I can understand why, and I think his granite jaw can more than take it, so I won't judge them too harshly.

-The Prison Break reference with Len offering to get himself and Mick tossed into Iron Heights so they can "plan an escape like old times."

-Damien and Nate whooping, grinning delightedly at each other and almost, almost high-fiving before Damien decides against it. (I should take a moment here to reiterate what an utter delight Neal McDonough is in this role. Each facial expression, each line delivery - 100% every time. I'm so glad they brought him over to this show.)

-Sandwiches. And cakes. Need I say more? Arthur Darvill is another of this show's treasures.

-Seeing the superheroes' masks in Damien's trophy cabinet. Not because I take pleasure in the thought of their deaths - I'm very fond of Barry and Oliver - but it was good that they were referenced, since they're such integral parts of the Legion's history and backgrounds. Felicity was also a nice link to Arrow, even if she didn't last long.

-Eobard actually going ahead and destroying the damn Spear, after being stopped minutes previously because he had wasted time holding it over the reactor core while gloating. That was satisfying because villains get caught out like that WAY too often. 

Onto the things that jarred somewhat:

I think we all acknowledge that this show has a fair number of plot holes, inconsistencies and things that don't make sense. There are sometimes understandable practical reasons for these, and often they're no more than background niggles, but sometimes they get too big or too numerous to overlook, and reach a sort of critical mass where they actually interfere with my enjoyment of the episode.

-Characters doing incredibly dumb things for the sake of the plot. The prime example is Eobard, who is supposed to be a genius, leaving himself open in so many ways: letting the Legends live (TWICE), keeping Black Flash 'alive', keeping the Waverider intact (albeit in miniaturised form), and letting the other Legion members go unharmed even after they'd all betrayed him. I know the characters can't all be killed off, but surely the writers could have found a way around this that doesn't make Eobard look like an unthinking idiot?

-Character regression. People have made this point in relation to Mick many times this season. In this episode it happened with Len. He had grown so much during his time on The Flash and especially on Legends, but now he's back to square minus one. I realise this is a different 'version' of him than the one who was a Legend member, but it's a shame to say the least.

In 'Legion of Doom' and 'Moonshot' we saw quite a bit of humanity and even vulnerability in Eobard – but there wasn't any in evidence here. It was fun seeing him in his newfound smirking glory, and of course Matt sold it, but it would have been even nicer to see something of his more sympathetic side as well, rather than just being straight-up Ebil. The two can co-exist; they don't have to cancel each other out. There was no hint here of his longstanding yearning to go home or his fondness for the original STAR Labs team – I realise it probably wasn't possible to get Carlos and Danielle, but it would have been a real treat to see Caitlin and Cisco working with him. His life in the new reality seemed so generic kind of one-dimensional Bond villain-ish - being mega-powerful and terrorising his underlings and all that.

We did get a nice reference to Malcolm's beloved wife being alive and him having good relationships with his children, which was always so important to him. Shame there was nothing about Damien's and Len's family - I wonder if Ruve and Norah were around in this version of reality? How about Lisa Snart?

-Reality vs. time travel. The Spear was always presented as a way of altering the world that was more fixed and permanent than making simply making changes to the timeline, but according to the Legend's embryonic plan at the end of the episode, they can undo Doomworld just by ... going back in time. If the whole of reality really has been rewritten, there shouldn't be any 'original' unaltered point in time for them to return to where they could reset stuff!

Edited April 1, 2017 by Argenta

[KirkB]

28 minutes ago, Argenta said:

-Reality vs. time travel. The Spear was always presented as a way of altering the world that was more fixed and permanent than making simply making changes to the timeline, but according to the Legend's embryonic plan at the end of the episode, they can undo Doomworld just by ... going back in time. If the whole of reality really has been rewritten, there shouldn't be any 'original' unaltered point in time for them to return to where they could reset stuff!

This is the sort of wibbly wobbly, comic booky stuff you can't think too hard about or you'll hurt yourself.  :)  But the idea, I think, is they want to go back to a point before the Spear was whole. Technically, reality was only rewritten from the point where the Legion used the Spear. Yes, in a 'real' sense it should have been completely retroactive and altered everything that came before (hence why Tommy and his mom are still alive for example) and thus there would be no pre-change point to go back to since this would be the way the world had always been, but they are probably going to take advantage of the ripple effect caused by using the Spear to change, or get around, the rules. Or something. If that makes any sense.

Edited April 1, 2017 by KirkB

[KayElektra]

This episode was awesome, but "Bored now" made me stand up and cheer.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, jhlipton said:

And replace Mick with Star-Girl (or pull "Merlin" from Camelot -- two women of color, and a lesbian pair as leads!).

What are you talking about about?  This is Stargirl.

Also, Stargirl/Merlin was in love with King Arthur.  Guinevere was the one creating sparks with Sara.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

12 hours ago, jhlipton said:

She may have to go back, but there's no reason she, her daughter and her entire village (what is this, Once Upon a Time???) have to die for Mari to exist, or to become a superheroine. 

Superman/Supergirl have similar origin stories.

Edited April 2, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[BkWurm1]

On 3/30/2017 at 9:42 PM, MarkHB said:

If Thawne had wanted to, he could have done all that when he was Harrison Wells.  Or even as Thawne in a normal timeline.

We don't actually know if Thawne had the skill and know how to fix the problems they mentioned or if he just included "save the Polar Bears" in his wish list and let the Spear make that stuff happen.  To me it seems more likely he just wished the solutions into place. 

[Cthulhudrew]

On 3/30/2017 at 11:50 PM, Trini said:

Hee! Loved the shout to PB. LOVED IT!

Speaking of PB, I got to sit in on a PB panel at WonderCon this weekend. I've seen interviews and such with WM before, and knew he was pretty low key like the characters he portrays, but I was very surprised by how soft-spoken DP is. Very much a contrast to Mick (and Lincoln Burrows for that matter).

16 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

If I thought for even one moment the death would stick, I'd be really disturbed that Amaya was almost literally fridged for Mick's manpain. However, not only do I think it won't stick, but I think there's a high chance Mick will sacrifice his own life to save all the Legends, and it'll be Amaya who embodies his love for them because his love is strongest for her.

I'm personally still hoping that the finale with the Legion of Doom ends in a good, old-fashioned cake fight! Like they used to do in the golden age of sitcoms.

[Miss Dee]

I'm slightly more hopeful now (for reasons I've explained in the spoiler thread).

I'm not really shocked to hear about Purcell being really soft-spoken. Actors usually excel best at roles quite different from their regular selves; I suspect it's a chance to indulge in behaviour and emotions that just don't work for them in real life.

[Argenta]

6 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Speaking of PB, I got to sit in on a PB panel at WonderCon this weekend. I've seen interviews and such with WM before, and knew he was pretty low key like the characters he portrays, but I was very surprised by how soft-spoken DP is. Very much a contrast to Mick (and Lincoln Burrows for that matter).

I'm personally still hoping that the finale with the Legion of Doom ends in a good, old-fashioned cake fight! Like they used to do in the golden age of sitcoms.

I`ve been seeing the clips and pics from the WonderCon panel all over Twitter this weekend. That must have been great fun! I would love to have gone but I`m on the wrong continent :)  However, Wentworth and Dom are both coming to an event near me in the UK in May, so I`ve booked my tickets and am very excited about that. 

A cake fight, eh? Well, thanks to Rip we know there are plenty of cakes around already, so maybe that will happen. Perhaps the secret to defeating the Legion will be to distract them with Nate`s mom`s delicious sandwiches and then hurl custard pies at them XD

[kismet]

20 hours ago, KirkB said:

This is the sort of wibbly wobbly, comic booky stuff you can't think too hard about or you'll hurt yourself.  :)  But the idea, I think, is they want to go back to a point before the Spear was whole. Technically, reality was only rewritten from the point where the Legion used the Spear. Yes, in a 'real' sense it should have been completely retroactive and altered everything that came before (hence why Tommy and his mom are still alive for example) and thus there would be no pre-change point to go back to since this would be the way the world had always been, but they are probably going to take advantage of the ripple effect caused by using the Spear to change, or get around, the rules. Or something. If that makes any sense.

So should CD have some free time or the Arrow writers simply get creative with excuses, does this mean I met get Tommy back? Because if LoT gives me Tommy back alive and hopefully happy away from toxic SC, I would be extremely grateful. 

[ElleMo]

On 4/1/2017 at 4:37 PM, Argenta said:

-Characters doing incredibly dumb things for the sake of the plot. The prime example is Eobard, who is supposed to be a genius, leaving himself open in so many ways: letting the Legends live (TWICE), keeping Black Flash 'alive', keeping the Waverider intact (albeit in miniaturised form), and letting the other Legion members go unharmed even after they'd all betrayed him. I know the characters can't all be killed off, but surely the writers could have found a way around this that doesn't make Eobard look like an unthinking idiot?     . . .    In 'Legion of Doom' and 'Moonshot' we saw quite a bit of humanity and even vulnerability in Eobard – but there wasn't any in evidence here. It was fun seeing him in his newfound smirking glory, and of course Matt sold it, but it would have been even nicer to see something of his more sympathetic side as well, rather than just being straight-up Ebil. The two can co-exist; they don't have to cancel each other out.

4

They already had the answer to your first comment, they just chose/didn't think to use it. We have seen a lot of humanity and vulnerability in Eobard from both legends and his time as Wells on Flash.  That could very easily be his reasoning for keeping the Legends alive, because of some sort of adversarial respect or in the case of Ray because they helped each other out.  It wouldn't have been difficult to stick a few lines in somewhere about that. 

[johntfs]

It occurs to me that one reason we don't see Cisco and Caitlyn is that Eobard does care about them.  He also has enough self-awareness to know what kind of person he is and that the best way to keep them safe and happy was to keep them far away from himself.  He only keeps around him people he won't mind hurting/killing.

[jhlipton]

On 4/1/2017 at 11:46 AM, Lokiberry said:

It wasn't Commander Steel. Amaya was in love with Hourman, who died in 2x01. She came with the Legends to get revenge on the person who killed him. Star-Girl/Merlin chose  to stay in Camelot because she was in love with Arthur.

I'm not sure who the other woman of color and/or lesbian is. Do you mean Guinevere?

ETA: Also, Sara isn't a lesbian, she's bisexual.

Oh,well, facts... LOL

Yeah, Hourman, and yeah, Guinevere.  My bad.
Sarah is bi, but her relationship with Gwen would be a lesbian one. (I thought about using "bi" but it didn't make sense in context to me).

[johntfs]

On 4/3/2017 at 1:44 PM, jhlipton said:

Sarah is bi, but her relationship with Gwen would be a lesbian one. (I thought about using "bi" but it didn't make sense in context to me).

I'm not totally sure about this any more.  Sara was bi before Thea killed her but once she was brought back to life and cured by Constantine, Sara seems pretty exclusively attracted to women.  Has anyone else noticed Sara showing even a little attraction to any male since that all occurred?  I haven't.  Has anybody else?

[MarkHB]

There definitely seemed to be something developing between her and Cold.

[ElleMo]

1 hour ago, MarkHB said:

There definitely seemed to be something developing between her and Cold.

Yes, I felt that as well. 

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, MarkHB said:

There definitely seemed to be something developing between her and Cold.

I'll grant you that.  I've noticed that in Season 2 Sara has been pretty much just into women.

[kismet]

Sara is bisexual, so she can be into either gender at anytime. So luckily for the writers, they can write an attraction/flirtation plot at anytime for SL. I haven't noticed a trend to one gender or another. It just seems like they are hesitant to put her in an actual relationship.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 6/22/2017 at 5:57 PM, johntfs said:

On 6/22/2017 at 6:44 AM, MarkHB said:

There definitely seemed to be something developing between her and Cold.

I'll grant you that.  I've noticed that in Season 2 Sara has been pretty much just into women.

She got to know Cold over a long period of time.Thw people they have shown her being immediately attracted to have all been women.

[Sakura12]

I think Sara's Bi with a preference for women.