Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[ostentatious]

If they wanted to stay true to the spirit of the comics, Oliver himself would bear some resemblance to comics. Obviously they do not consider vast changes to his personality, his family, his friends, or his love life to be proscribed by comics. You can tell by how DC has approved - from inception - vast changes to his personality, his family, his friends, and his love life.

DC is happy with this. This is what DC wants. If DC doesn't think the BC is important to the GA romantically, then there's really no argument except liking or not liking what DC wants.

But yeah, they keep Oliver and Laurel so far apart you'd think one of them had filed a restraining order against the other. Bless Stephen, but he cannot control his look of total exhaustion and ugh in scenes with Laurel. His Oliver just cannot stand to be around Laurel, and not in a sexy way. In a genuine "why won't this lady I dated in college leave me alone" way.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ostentatious

[writersblock51]

Chiming in to point out a few things about comic canon & translating to TV/movies:

 

- comics constantly change their own canon. DC is starting things new again at this time. 40 - 70 years of a specific character would be awfully boring to write, draw and read if things were always staying the same or sticking to the same basics.  Basically, "comic book canon" is a moving target

 

- the only 'canon' thing that Arrow has to stick to, in my opinion, is that Oliver Queen is the Green Arrow. And, technically, he hasn't even earned THAT yet (*insert eye roll here*)

 

- Oliver and Dinah have been crime fighting partners far more often and in many more iterations of both their characters than they've been lovers. I've been reading their comics on and off for over 30 years. Partners, yes. Lovers? No. And I think that's a good thing because their stints as lovers were always problematic. He was a perpetual cheater, at the very least

 

- I have never expected the shows and movies to be exactly like the comics. It started, for me, with the first Superman movie.  As far as I'm concerned, I enjoy the TV shows and movies to be adapations, much like when I watch the Harry Potter or the Hobbit/LoTR movies.  Or any movie made from a book.

 

- I loved Green Arrow, in all his silly hat and liberal Robin Hood ideas, since I was a kid.  I was not sure how he'd translate on a TV that focused on him (I did not watch Smallville after season 3). I have, with a list of exceptions (that seem more about shock value, plot rather than character driven stories and an odd obsession that only suits make a hero), enjoyed this show's version of the character.  I still read some of the comics, too. If I want to stick to comics, I can do that. I like to have the variety.

[DrSpaceman10]

This show is about Oliver, so if a character doesn't have an impact (whether good or bad) on him, then should that character even be on the show? This is a big part of the problem with Laurel's character, and I don't see it being fixable. 

[Guest]

Well, this is a fun debate!

 

I understand playing with canon during the middle of the show's run, but my question is, ultimately do you end up circling back to what's supposed to be true in the end? Many here seem to be convinced that will never happen, and I have to question that, because of what I've read about this character.

 

Well, considering that the show did already deviate from O/L to O/F, I don't think anything is set in stone. As I said earlier, if Arrow runs for more than six seasons, it's possible they'll attempt Oliver and Laurel again but even that is a hard maybe and would be a really hard sell. This season has cemented Felicity as Oliver's true love, IMO. She's linked to his humanity and happiness. She was the last person he thought of before he essentially died. He's abstained from being with anyone else because he couldn't be with her. These are all huge steps and declarations that would be majorly hard to go back on. Honestly, the only way I ever see O/L being together romantically again is if Felicity died and if that happens, I definitely won't be watching because I feel like Felicity is the heart of the show. 

 

However, I can see them pairing Laurel and Oliver as GA/BC on the streets once Laurel becomes better trained, much like Oliver went out with Sara on the streets in s2. I think they'll maybe make steps towards that in s4, s5. I absolutely think they can be a fighting duo without romance getting involved, although personally speaking I don't really want to watch a show called Arrow which primarily features GA and BC fighting together. I want Diggle out on the streets again. And hopefully Thea too. For real, if this ever became the BC and GA show I'd be nope-ing out of here so quickly.

[ostentatious]

They have gone so all in on Olicity and bailed on Loliver so early in the run that...Loliver existed almost entirely offscreen. They gave up on that ship so early in the run they never even bothered to put it onscreen.

Even if EBR leaves the show, they'd bring back McKenna or Helena or Sara or really anyone else. If they were even keeping Laurel as a contingency, they would've done something to establish them onscreen in season one.

[SmallScreenDiva]

When I start watching a comic book show, if I'm not familiar with the character I look them up to find out what to expect in the broad strokes- you know, major character traits, powers/abilities, major villains, iconic love interests, etc.

 

I wasn't overly familiar with Green Arrow either (except for the one I saw on Smallville) but when I looked him up what I found is that his major love interest for the last 40 years has been the Black Canary, so that's certainly what I expected to see happen on the show. Some characters don't have one major love interest, and there's many minor ones, but this one did seem to have a "true love" that he's been linked to for quite a long time (volatile relationship or not- I think it being volatile probably makes it more true to the books, from what I've researched).

 

So, given that reality, it's still kind of hard for me to think that they won't eventually circle back to it at some point. To totally write off that possibility would be really be strongly deviating from the GA mythos (especially because they bothered to make her the lead female character and all). If there was a problem, it may have been in how she was introduced, with her not already being the BC. But now that she is, once she becomes a level crime fighting partner, I could certainly see them trying to get back to the two of them as that crime fighting duo that they're supposed to be, for the sake of being true to the spirit of the comics, at least.

 

I know it's different for the TV audiences, but these are still comic book writers writing these things, all kinds of hints for fans in these shows, etc. and that was one of the major cornerstones of Green Arrow, at least from what I've read, so I wouldn't be surprised it still ultimately happens.

 

This is the simplest explanation as to why "Arrow" is different from "Green Arrow" in the comics: “We certainly wanted to chart our own course and destiny,” Marc Guggenheim said back in 2012. They have repeated this line many times since, not only in reference to Olicity or other relationships on the show, but also with regards to its villains and other characters. The show prides itself in doing its own thing (whether it's always successful is debatable, of course. I've found that the best way to enjoy this show is not to expect it to be "Green Arrow" on the small screen :)

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think that there's always the chance that the show could revisit Oliver/Laurel.  But the fact that they had Tommy out of the picture and L/O set up romantically at the end of the first season, and then completely decided to switch gears, separate the two, erase the island picture from existence, hook Oliver up with other women, throw a baby in there that was conceived while Oliver was dating Laurel, have Oliver sleep with Laurel's sister AGAIN, have Oliver tell Laurel that he's done chasing after her in that fairly hostile hallway scene, AND have Oliver refuse to tell Laurel that he's really the Arrow...well it seems like the writers went out of their way to completely turn the audience against a romantic relationship between those two.

[statsgirl]

I can't remember who said it, I wish I could because it made so much sense, but someone here pointed out that the Oliver Queen on Arrow is not the light-hearted playboy Oliver Queen of the comics who would have been grounded by being paired with a serious Laurel Lance. This Oliver Queen carries the burdens not only of his own past but also of his father's and his mother's and anyone else he happens to bump into on the street.  He is better paired with someone who can lighten him up and give him talks that show him what a good person he is, not the Laurel who was telling him how worthless he is and that she wished he had died too.

 

I agree there are just some things that don't translate on screen. You can try to sell it in a 2hrs movie but a tv show? Over 60 episodes?

I'm still trying to catch up on this conversation (you've moved so fast) but I wanted to emphasize this point.

 

In a comic book, you can put any two people together because it's two dimensional and as long as they treat each other well, the reader can make it work in his/her head.

 

A 2 hour movie can make most things work but you still better chemistry test the leads.

 

But for a TV show, if it's any good, it grows organically from the combined working of the writers (several), directors (also many) and the actors, and it ends up being more like a mix of flavors from each than a stew that been boiled together for hours. And chemistry is very important to that, sometimes more important than the writing, whether it's partners chemisrty like Stephen Amell and David Ramsey have, or male/female chemistry because you've got to have it sustain the viewer's interest for a long, long time.

 

You need more than what's on the paper, you need magic between the two characters.  Andrew Marlowe, in talking about the last scene between Beckett and Castle in the show's pilot as she teases him and walks away, said "And that's when you know you've got a show" (i.e. something that is more than a one shot), implying that it's the spark between the actors that pulls people in to the show..

 

Irrespective of what's in the comic books, SA and KC didn't have that kind of spark, the kind that keeps the show going for multiple seasons.

Edited May 1, 2015 by statsgirl

[ostentatious]

I think in any other instance, it would be a possibility. But Stephen and Katie are singular in their anti-chemistry. It's horrible. It's notorious. I went back and looked up reviews from the first couple of eps and it is much discussed in those. It has nothing to do with Felicity. This isn't just a case where the two actors don't have much chemistry. They are the only known case of anti-chemistry. We didn't even know there was such a thing until we saw them together. If Emily had never been cast, he'd probably be with McKenna. The CW likes JG and looking back, she and SA were cute together.

There's just no way IMO. And I think to say well, the prods are comics fans and have written some comics so they will care more about old comics storylines than their own storylines doesn't understand the creative ego. This show is theirs. They care more about their show, their careers, and their day to day work life than they care about pairings somebody else invented forty years ago.

There are obviously a few immutable aspects of the GA backstory they felt they had to keep intact. Loliver just isn't one of them.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ostentatious

[TwistedandBored]

I feel like I read the same argument over and over again in the last 2 pages. LOL

 

I also feel like people who want BC/GA together forget that Oliver and Laurel were together and he cheated on her multiple times. Just like  in the comics. As for why are they not together now is because of comics. BC/GA were not always together in the comic. So, this is like one of those off time. BC/GA fans should really be applauding the writers for staying true to the comics in this regard. Just saying...

Edited May 2, 2015 by TwistedandBored

[calliope1975]

Oliver and Laurel are also problematic because there's the risk of losing viewers if you put them back together. How many? Who knows, but a season of that anti-chemistry on screen could translate to less viewers and to cancellation - if the CW lasts that long. And all for comics canon? Why bother if you have something that is working?

[olicityfan25]

I think it's hilarious the fans who still want Laurel and Oliver. They get divorced anyway. It just doesn't make sense for them to put them together (again) just to have them get married (blah) and then divorce. They didn't have a screen test together and that's why people were salivating to put Oliver with Felicity. Nobody was really here for Laurel and Oliver.

Edited May 2, 2015 by olicityfan25

[kismet]

You know I could have been on board for Laurel/Oliver redeux as a possible plot/story arc seasons down the road, if it hadn't been for how strong Olicity is being integrated into the show currently. But after s3 esp ep320, it just doesn't seem in the cards.

 

Personally despite the lack of chemistry between L/O, I could have possibly rooted for them to be together because comics. I didn't always mind their dynamic in s1 and it does fit the superhero comic mold. Perhaps the chemistry could have come (it has not yet, so likely it would have been bleak pairing with those actors). But what has made me philosophically against it since s2 is the fact that Oliver & Sara had a relationship in the present time. I just don't see how any person can willing want to be with someone who has chosen to be with their sister twice instead of them. Add to that the other toxic elements of their backstory & their current mutual angsty tension I just don't see it happening, ever. Comics or not. Unless the brass demand it (which seems unlikely from what people report about the new DC 52) there is nobody really rooting or wanting to make L&O happen except the subset of fans.

 

Now, I have said before, I do not believe in a TV endgame is solid until the actors or shows last season. So even if Olicity is to crash & burn, I feel like the writers would bring in new love interests before they ever returned to L&O. What might be cool though if they wanted to appease the fans, is they could have an episode in which either O or L have a dream/drug induced/coma like state in which they envision what their life might have been perhaps if the boat had never sunk. In that dream world, exploring a L&O relationship would make sense. The writers could choose whatever state of together/happiness they wanted (I'd be guessing probably not happy & most likely divorced). Perhaps they could do it instead of the flashbacks. If they did, I would hope to see it from L's perspective. I just think it would fit more with her journey on the show.

[olicityfan25]

Also I find it kind of insulting to Felicity's character to just label her as comic relief. When she's definitely much more than that. I know it's people's opinion, but when you've seen the entire show you'd know that it's not true. She stands up to Oliver and doesn't cower. The fact is if she was just a comic relief character she wouldn't get the action scenes she's in. She wouldn't be so tied to Oliver's humanity if all she did was tell jokes or make funny remarks.

[looptab]

Okay, so you're a person who only watches in terms of the show itself and I understand that. That's just not how I watch comic book shows- I look up the important parts of the character's legacy and expect to see the most basic, biggest parts fulfilled, at least in spirit.

You know, this is actually the first time I see someone make this argument. Personally, I'm one of those very anal people who tends to loathe most adaptations of books I read and loved, because they so rarely end up being satisfying to me. The thing is, I apply that argument just to movie adaptations of books I did read.

If, say, I had never read Pride and Prejudice, and a director chose to have Darcy end up with Lydia instead of Lizzie, or Lizzie with Wickham, I wouldn't care that much as long as the movie was good, because I wouldn't have any kind of attachment to the story. 

 

I enjoy a lot Game of Thrones, but I have never read the books. I went and read some things about them, but I honestly don't care that the writers of the show are taking some liberties with the source material. It's just that they are different mediums, and what works in the books it's not necessarily bound to work on screen. And that goes from minimal details - take how the Hunger Games movies chose to attach notes to the gifts Katniss received in the arena, when in the books she had to figure out what her mentor was trying to communicate to her just from the gifts themselves, since there really was no way to translate on screen the thought process behind her actions - or even major plot points. The Last of the Mohicans comes to mind. They basically inverted every character, and the ending has nothing to do with the book. 

 

BTW, I'm in no way criticizing your approach, to each his own. It just honestly surprised me :)

[ruby24]

I have an appreciation for the history of things like this in comics. The longer something has lasted, the more ingrained into legacy it has become- that's what I'd like to see fulfilled.

 

And to the person who suggested they do a dream/alternate episode where we see what Laurel and Oliver would have been like married if he'd never gone to the island- I can't imagine who would want to see that. What they want to see is Green Arrow and Black Canary, the crime fighting duo and long term love interests. That just hasn't been done (yet).

[dtissagirl]

What they want to see is Green Arrow and Black Canary, the crime fighting duo and long term love interests. That just hasn't been done (yet).

 

What crime fighting duo, though? For the past three DECADES of comic books now, Dinah's crime fighting partners have been Barbara Gordon, Helena Bertinelli, and the rest of the Birds of Prey. Zatanna is more of Dinah's crime fighting partner than Oliver.

[Chaser]

My other issue with the Comic Canon argument, people pick and choose what they deem is the most important Canon. The show doesn't have to follow the comics completely, but for that one specific thing that happened is absolutely can't be changed....even if the comics themselves changed it.

[steeledwithakiss]

I feel this conversation is going around in circles. Some people think we already had the GA/BC fighting duo with Sara and Oliver in s2. Others absolutely want Laurel in that role.

 

What I think is different on the show, apart from basically everything, is the introduction of Diggle and Felicity. GA in the comics had Speedy or Red Arrow/Arsenal sometime BC. On the show they introduced Diggle because Oliver had to have someone to talk about his plan, the V.O just didn't work. Then they had Felicity because nobody could buy Oliver being that good with computers. What the writers probably didn't expect was how their relationship would become the heart of the show. The way he related to them allowed a lot of people to relate to Oliver. Not his relationship with Laurel or Tommy. Crazy thing viewers enjoy seeing things evolve on screen, not only being told about it.

 

And that's the main reason I think if they were to ignore what really works for Oliver's characterization and force the BC/GA duo because of comics they would destroy what Arrow (the show) is in a fundamental level.

 

I don't think they will. When Oliver thought he was dying he thought about his family and Felicity. When he thought he was living his life behind forever he said goodbye to his sister, called Diggle his brother and told Felicity the only way he could survive this ordeal is knowing she is happy. I think the writers are very aware of what makes Arrow's Oliver Queen human to the audience. The three people he can't live without: Thea, Felicity and Diggle.

Edited May 2, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[dtissagirl]

And I'm sorry, but I just cannot look at whatever legacy/history from comic book canon without being aware of the extremely patriarchal tropes and the massive internalized sexism of the GA/BC relationship.

 

Every single time Dinah went back to Oliver, she got screwed. Every time. They have always been written in a way that makes Oliver look good -- Dinah grounds Oliver, Dinah gives Oliver focus, Dinah makes him a better man. Oliver does not reciprocate. She ends up relegated to "love interest" first, superhero 37th. Every time they've been together, Dinah's narrative role is demoted to "girlfriend"/"wife". He wants to settle down because he's pushing 45 and wants a family? Yo, Dinah, please to be quitting your superhero group and come here start a family with me.

 

Every time Dinah went back to Star City to be with Oliver, she had to leave the JLA, or the JSA, or the BoP, to be with him. Every time she went from kickass superhero, to Love Interest. Every time, it's been demeaning. And sexist. And every time Oliver ultimately betrayed Dinah, be it by cheating, or by lying to her, or by murdering people behind her back and then saying he didn't do it, or by telling her he's been secretly in love with Shado, or whatever. And every time Dinah was left picking up the pieces of herself, and of whoever else was damaged by Oliver -- Roy, or Mia, or Sin, or Connor. And every time she left him to go back to the Birds of Prey, HER LIFE IMPROVED. Every single time, she was better off without Oliver.

 

So, yeah. It's pretty comfortable to want Oliver/Dinah together if you're only looking after Oliver's best interests. It's pretty sickening to wish that on Dinah, time and time again.

Edited May 2, 2015 by dancingnancy

[tarotx]

And for our Laurel to get back together with Oliver after the way he treats her before the island and even now, it's not a pretty Thought. Even if you love both characters how can it not be an ew For her? Laurel needed/needs her own hero name and story imo.

Though for me Sara was the comic Black Canary. I loved her Dynamic with Oliver (though he did cheat on her sister with her so still iffy) but I loved her energy with Nyssa too. I'm a huge Sara fan.

I think it's best to go off and say Laurel

(Maybe Sara)

has a child who becomes the future Black Canary who hooks up with Oliver Queen jr.

Edited May 2, 2015 by tarotx

[NumberCruncher]

That's also my issue with an Oliver/Laurel pairing--seriously who wants to see the two of them together when 80% of the time we've seen them on this show they've been insulting each other, usually yelling and/or crying while doing it.  How in the name of everything that's good and holy is that a healthy relationship that people would enjoy watching?  There are love/hate relationships and then there are downright toxic ones.  This one is definitely the latter and that's not even considering the whole cheating history.  They can't even talk to each other like normal adults.

Edited May 2, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[Morena]

And I'm sorry, but I just cannot look at whatever legacy/history from comic book canon without being aware of the extremely patriarchal tropes and the massive internalized sexism of the GA/BC relationship.

 

Every single time Dinah went back to Oliver, she got screwed. Every time. They have always been written in a way that makes Oliver look good -- Dinah grounds Oliver, Dinah gives Oliver focus, Dinah makes him a better man. Oliver does not reciprocate. She ends up relegated to "love interest" first, superhero 37th. Every time they've been together, Dinah's narrative role is demoted to "girlfriend"/"wife". He wants to settle down because he's pushing 45 and wants a family? Yo, Dinah, please to be quitting your superhero group and come here start a family with me.

 

Every time Dinah went back to Star City to be with Oliver, she had to leave the JLA, or the JSA, or the BoP, to be with him. Every time she went from kickass superhero, to Love Interest. Every time, it's been demeaning. And sexist. And every time Oliver ultimately betrayed Dinah, be it by cheating, or by lying to her, or by murdering people behind her back and then saying he didn't do it, or by telling her he's been secretly in love with Shado, or whatever. And every time Dinah was left picking up the pieces of herself, and of whoever else was damaged by Oliver -- Roy, or Mia, or Sin, or Connor. And every time she left him to go back to the Birds of Prey, HER LIFE IMPROVED. Every single time, she was better off without Oliver.

 

So, yeah. It's pretty comfortable to want Oliver/Dinah together if you're only looking after Oliver's best interests. It's pretty sickening to wish that on Dinah, time and time again.

And if  was Dinah who cheat Oliver, who lie as many times as he did to her, still wanting them to finish together?

Edited May 2, 2015 by Morena

[wonderwall]

I found this... I think this speaks for itself lmao:

 

[TwistedandBored]

I agree with that FB person. If BC/GA fans want writers to stick to comics then I hope the writers stick to ALL that has happen in the comics. I bet none of these fans stating comics as the reason why BC/GA should happen will be happy with the results. BC/GA in the comics were never happy with one another. They never had a normal relationship even by Superheroes standard. So, if you are looking for Lois and Clark type relationship from these two then y'all ain't getting one. Also, Green Arrow was douchebag and a disloyal boyfriend material.  

 

So, I don't think these writers are going to jeopardize the show they worked very hard on for a relationship that sucked even on paper.

[wonderwall]

It may just boil down to what kind of stories each of us personally likes.  Some prefer adversarial love interests, like Batman and Catwoman, some like star-crossed lovers like Romeo and Juliet or Buffy and Angel (in the days when making love would turn him into Angelus), some the man with many women (Don Juan, James T. Kirk) and some like the characters in a partnership like Tony Stark and Pepper Potts.  I'm sure there are lots more.  (I love the "abrasive but end up as true partners" of Much Ado About Nothing which I see in Oliver and Felicity.)  As my mother used to say when my brother and I fought, de gustibus non est disputantum (you can't argue about personal taste).

 

This is very, very true. In the end some people will just be drawn to different things. Some are drawn to the whole 'star crossed' aspect, some the 'love will conquer all' aspect, some just want a simple romance because everything else surrounding them is overwhelming...

 

I guess for me, I fall in the last category. I feel as though Oliver deserves to have something uncomplicated, simple, and drama-less, stable because he's constantly being beaten down in every other aspect of his life. And I feel (if the writers are willing) like he can have that with Felicity, a woman who understands every aspect of his life and loves him despite of his shortcomings. 

 

But I can understand the draw to the whole "love conquers all" aspect that could draw people to Oliver and Laurel. 

[steeledwithakiss]

I'm not sure "love conquers all" applies to L/O. It's more the first love trope but yeah I've rooted for that type of relationship before, mostly on soaps. No matter what would happen, what they would do to each other, years down the road you're still rooting for them to end up together. I didn't like it on Arrow but I understand the appeal.

[statsgirl]

I think the biggest thing Oliver and Laurel would have to conquer are their lies and enabling of each other, followed by basic personality differences. Sure, there was that pesky Undertaking and five years away thing but I don't think that's as big a problem as the clash of their personalities.

[steeledwithakiss]

And their lack of respect for each other.

[lemotomato]

I will never understand the appeal of Laurel/Oliver, just like I have no idea why Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey are so wildly popular. You can point out all the unhealthy aspects of those relationships to people who like that sort of romance, and it won't make a difference.

 

Which I guess means Laurel/Oliver could eventually come back, even though there's no logical reason to do so. 

[dtissagirl]

I think Stephen Amell would stage a riot, though.

[lemotomato]

Heh, I'd like to think so, but he still toes the company line when he has to (although with less enthusiasm, IMO). He was still paying lip service to Laurel/Oliver at Comic Con before the second season because it was still a plot point in 2A.

[Chaser]

I think Stephen Amell would stage a riot, though.

Lol I am always caution about saying he ships it, but the guy really has no chill....

Was he like this in S1 when promoting Oliver and Laurel? IIRC he was talking Olicity in S1, not on the show but as a fan of the show.

[dtissagirl]

Oh, media and public would never heard a blip from him. But I'm pretty sure Stephen not only FEELS the black hole of anti-chemistry that happens when he and KC share a scene, but that he also holds himself responsible for it. He's the type to. It's his show to lead, and just the way his face closes off when he talks about it in interviews, I'm pretty sure he internalized the failure of Laurel/Oliver as *his*.

[statsgirl]

Something I respect him for.  I hate it when people blame someone else (even when the fault is the other person's).

 

It takes me aback when someone refers to him as the captain of the Olicity ship because I see him as the captain of the whole show. He's not one of the producers, of course, but it seems like he feels a sense of responsibility to make the show as good as he can make it. He's talked about how when there is a guest actor he wants to make them feel welcome (e.g. EBR's first episode) and he took the comments on his FB about Oliver sleeping with everyone woman he's not related to to the producers and we had a celibate Oliver this season until ep 320.

 

MG said that Arrow will go on as long as Stephen wants to do it (and the CW wants it) so I think he's got a fair bit of influence.

 

I don't know how this season will end but if it ends on a strong Olicity note, I don't think "because comics" will have much of an effect in the coming seasons.

[steeledwithakiss]

Someone on the Arrow after show said that they prefer Raylicity because they don't feel like Felicity is a priority for Oliver. Not only do I believe that Felicity is not ray's priority either (nor should she necessarily be), I've made my feelings about Ray Palmer extremely clear on multiple occasions and my repulsion for Raylicity knows no bounds but it definitely cleared up something for me. Maybe that's why people have a problem seeing her a love interest because Oliver is not constantly being her white knight or making stupid decisions that are all about his one twu wuv. Well, welcome to real responsible life people, being in love with someone doesn't mean you're an idiot who doesn't give a shit about your family or responsibilities anymore. There are so many male leads in a relationship that I have zero respect for because they would sell their grandma for their LI's supposedly golden vagina that I am more than ok with Oliver prioritising his little sister and the fate of an entire city over getting with Felicity. It's what makes me actually like the character and I suspect it's what Felicity loves about him. And we've come full circle back to my argument that Felicity/Olicity did not ruin season 3. I know what it looks like when a character/relationship ruins a show (coughCFDcough*), and this ain't it.

 

That is one of the many reasons I love O/F together. She doesn't exacerbate his selfish tendencies, on the contrary. Since he realized he was in love with her he sacrificed his happiness for the city, the well being of the team, his sister's, her's. Not that he wasn't the self sacrifing type before but when when you think of the reasons he wasn't with Laurel the contrast is huge. In s1 it was because of his cheating and then in s2 it was guilt because they had slept together thus betraying a promise he had made to Tommy a few hours before. Then later on when he was with Sara, which in itself is a pretty selfish and douchey move in itself as far as Laurel is concerned, he treated Felicity like she was expendable and was obsessed with Sara's safety (the only person in danger who actually knew how to defend herself) and it basically resulted in him being so distracted, Thea was the one kidnapped just under his nose.

 

Loving Felicity seems to wake up the noble guy in him (he doesn't look at any other girls, just wants her to be happy) which can be frustrating sometimes I admit, but this Oliver is for me much more easier to root for. It might be cliché but I like the fact that they make each other better persons.

 

Felicity was angry at him at first or at least frustrated but it seemed like in 3x20 she came to terms with his self sacrificing tendencies and it's actually why she loves him, she said as much to Thea in 3x21.

Edited May 3, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[apinknightmare]

In response to the post about this article over in the Starling City Times thread:

 

 

 

Why "Olicity" is killing Arrow *spoilers*
by Michael Barone ⋅ Posted on May 2nd, 2015 at 8:48pm
http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/05/03/why-olicity-is-killing-arrow-spoilers-2904151?lt_source=external,manual

 

To each their own about Olicity, honestly. I thought they did a really nice buildup between Oliver and Felicity over the past two seasons, so the not fake fake "I love you" didn't surprise me. Where they utterly failed was having Oliver's realization that he meant what he said and any interactions that showed that things were changing happen over the hiatus. So, I get why some people were gobsmacked by it - I don't think they were paying attention like I was, which is cool. Oliver and Felicity are one of the main reasons I watch - I actually probably wouldn't have hung on as long as I did if Felicity hadn't been introduced, and shipping Oliver and Felicity was what kept me invested when things started dragging. I don't think I would've stopped watching if they never got together though.

 

The problem I have with most of the arguments like the ones in that article is that they're complaining about character development and illogical romance in the same breath that they complain about Olicity, when that is one of the most consistently written relationships on the show, and has done WORLDS to develop Oliver as a character (I don't think the relationship is as beneficial to Felicity, but.) and a hero. It makes me wonder how some of these guys date: are they all just instantly attracted to someone and start a relationship with the intention of being romantic? Have none of them ever started working with someone and grown closer to them over time?

 

Basically, a lot of these arguments come off as "she's not a badass canon superhero and I don't think she's hot enough to be dating Oliver Queen, so this sucks and all you silly women who love it are ruining the show for me!!!!!" Which, I guess...well, that's probably what they are. There are valid arguments that there's a lot of manufactured relationship drama going on this year, but if you want to talk about anyone or anything ruining this show, I cannot take you seriously unless you point your finger squarely at Malcolm Merlyn. The pretzel twisting to bend everything to get him involved is the most nonsensical BS ever. Maybe they'll pull it out in the last two eps, but I don't think it'll ever make sense.

Edited May 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

Saying EBR is not hot is odd.  Obviously a lot of attractiveness is subjective, but frankly, not all.  There are thousands of studies re what Western civilization considers attractive (symmetrical features, for women an hourglass shape, for men low body fat/defined musculature, etc.) and EBR has pretty much all that.  Once you get past the person being attractive you can then argue levels (Angelina Jolie v. the world, for example), but she is, by Western civilization standards, extremely attractive. 

[ostentatious]

One can argue that the numerous romantic beats that made up the Olicity relationship starting from her very first appearance and that built steadily and obviously over the first two seasons are not to one's taste, but pretending they were not there at all is sheer bloody-mindedness. Everyone involve with the show has been acknowledging them since shortly after she began appearing. Everyone in the audience who doesn't have a weird agenda acknowledges them, even if they hate it.

Any dude whose main problem with Felicity is that Tumblr likes Olicity and he doesn't think she's that hot is beneath contempt anyway. Anyone who doesn't know fandom - ie 90% of the audience - would have no idea Felicity wasn't the planned LI from the very start. It's that embedded and overwhelming. Which is why no one will ever convince me it wasn't planned from about 30 seconds after they started watching her first dailies.

You know, I am a person who should be moved by the whole old lovers finding each other again. I am an Old. I have been in a relationship that survived him screwing around on me (albeit once, and not with you know, my sister) so there is something touching to me about that trope. I have a GoodReads shelf of romances with this theme.

But as someone who actually was part of a support group on this topic, I can tell you that relationships that survive infidelity do not look like Loliver. They are long term things, they are marriages, they are shared mortgages, they are co parenting situations. There is a real investment, a real reason to do the very hard work of reconciling beyond the feelings of a couple of college seniors, one of whom is still attending ragers and has no idea what he wants to do with his life.

College kids who fuck around on each other....I used to see kids like that come through that support forum. And it rarely worked out, because the foundation just was not there. Even when it worked out for a time, the cheater just kept at it. Loliver never had a time in their romantic relationship when he wasn't cheating. He was a serial offender. They were together for two years, and he cheated with twelve women that we know about; ten that Sara and Laurel discuss, Sara herself, and Sandra. That is not a relationship that has any good old days to go back to. The NORM for them is him constantly cheating. That is different from people who have been together successfully for a long time and one of them cheats, representing an aberration. There, those two have an honest, faithful normal to restore. Loliver has no honest, faithful normal to restore.

Now, it's certainly possible to play the "they discover the people they have become are perfect for one another and fall in love anew" trope but that is something that happens despite the old relationship, not because of it. And it relies upon the chemistry between the two in the present, which is of course a nightmare here.

Edited May 3, 2015 by ostentatious

[NumberCruncher]

Any dude whose main problem with Felicity is that Tumblr likes Olicity and he doesn't think she's that hot is beneath contempt anyway. Anyone who doesn't know fandom - ie 90% of the audience - would have no idea Felicity wasn't the planned LI from the very start. It's that embedded and overwhelming. Which is why no one will ever convince me it wasn't planned from about 30 seconds after they started watching her first dailies.

Yep, Kreisberg pretty much all but came right out and admitted that very thing during the SDCC interviews last summer. They never planned for Oliver to end up with Felicity in their original outline, but they all saw how Stephen reacted to Emily in that very first scene together and they took the ball and ran with it well before the fans even had the chance to react the dynamic (It's in this interview starting about a minute into it

). Should they maybe have been a little more obvious about showing their attraction to each other? That's debatable, but I agree with others here that the people who felt blindsided perhaps simply chose not to believe it was happening for whatever reason (comic canon biases, unconventional pairing, etc.) and therefore ignored a lot of what was actually happening onscreen, which was a lot of long moments staring into each other's eyes, ample touching/hand-holding, and flirty bantering. I've also seen a lot of these type of fans argue that it was all on Felicity's part, but I can point out several examples of Oliver initiating these moments, especially when it came to touching her.

[steeledwithakiss]

The first half of season 2 was "friends falling in love with each other but they are in denial" 101. Basically up until 2x14 we had: jealousy on both parts, people making remarks on them or assuming they are a couple, lingering touches and looks, him falling on top of her, them making confessions of how the other person is important for them ("the thought of losing someone that important to me/you're not gonna lose me" "You're not my employee you're my partner, I rely on you", "you'll always be my girl", "He was going to hurt you, there was no choice to make") the only time he killed someone during the season was to save her. It got a little chilly when he got with Sara but then in 2x18 Felicity was the only person he listened to when Thea was kidnapped and in 2x19 the first person he protected when Slade attacked the lair (one could argue she was in front of him and she's the only person who can't defend herself but he did stay hidden with her while his girlfriend got kicked around and only left her when Diggle was in danger). Then the last 3 episodes, after his breakup with Sara, had a lot of romantic moments with them gazing at each other longingly before he went to offer himself to Slade, him insisting on carrying her with a busted up knee, confiding in her about his self loathing and she was the one who got through to him and the one he listened to again. Then ofc the fake ILY that wasn't so fake after all if the smitten look he had on that beach was anything to go by.

 

If it was any other show that didn't have that whole comics predestined couple it would be a no brainer. They were writing them like the main slow burn couple. Those who didn't see it just didn't want to see it.

Edited May 4, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[catrox14]

That is a total click bait article.

[statsgirl]

 Loliver never had a time in their romantic relationship when he wasn't cheating. He was a serial offender. They were together for two years, and he cheated with twelve women that we know about; ten that Sara and Laurel discuss, Sara herself, and Sandra. That is not a relationship that has any good old days to go back to. The NORM for them is him constantly cheating.

 

That works out to one infidelity every two months, assuming that these were one shots like his babymama and not women he saw regularly on the side.

 

Makes me think that just as it wasn't Oliver's idea to move in together, it wasn't Oliver's idea to be in a monogamous relationship with Laurel.

 

When Laurel told him that she couldn't believe she was ever in love with him, my reaction was "you only thought it because  you tried so hard to be, sweetie".

[Password]

If it was any other show that didn't have that whole comics predestined couple it would be a no brainer.

Good point. When you lay it out like that then there really was a lot to tell us where the show was going romantically. It annoyed me when all those romantic beats were played out because I thought Laurel and Oliver were still endgame.

[doesntworkonwood]

Okey doke. So instead of revising for my exams, I thought it would be a better idea to make a graph of some of the main relationships on Arrow. 

 

 

I've missed some stuff out by mistake (I forgot to draw Oliver's friend line with Tommy), and some things may be proven wrong by the next episode (i.e. if Nyssa and Oliver don't get married), but I think that I've got most of the relationships we talk about on here on there. 

 

BTW, the dark dashed line stands for 'wants to have sex with'. 

[Kordi]

Haha, nice map, @doesntworkonwood! :-) I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for you! Good luck with your exams!

BTW I myself should be writing my M.A. thesis instead of posting on Arrow forums *sigh*

[doesntworkonwood]

Haha, nice map, @doesntworkonwood! :-) I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for you! Good luck with your exams!

BTW I myself should be writing my M.A. thesis instead of posting on Arrow forums *sigh*

Thank you! And have fun with that :P 

[nksarmi]

I don't hate or like them yet. I also don't hate or like Oliver and Felicity. I guess if I really really liked those two as a couple I'd be more against Laurel like everyone else is here. I'm sort of indifferent to the people he's been paired with, but I would like to see the GA/BC dynamic that's supposed to exist in the comics, because we haven't seen it yet.

Hmm maybe if enough people say it, it will stick....

 

1. You have seen the GA/BC dynamic in Oliver and Sara.

2. You won't see it with Oliver and Laurel unless she gets a whole lot of training from other people because GA didn't train BC - she started out his equal and this show failed to set that up from the get go - unless you count Oliver and Sara.

3. Oliver is NOT the GA of the comics/Laurel is NOT the BC of the comics - so you will NEVER see THAT dynamic between them.  Can anyone even imagine this show's Oliver calling this show's Laurel "pretty bird"?

4. One of the underlying parts of the GA/BC pairing is that he cheats on her - a lot.  Some people don't want to see that on this show anymore than what they have already shown us.  I personally would not enjoy that.  In fact, I'd probably stop watching.  So, be freakin' careful what you wish for.

[GreatAtBoats]

That is one of the many reasons I love O/F together. She doesn't exacerbate his selfish tendencies, on the contrary. Since he realized he was in love with her he sacrificed his happiness for the city, the well being of the team, his sister's, her's. Not that he wasn't the self sacrifing type before but when when you think of the reasons he wasn't with Laurel the contrast is huge. In s1 it was because of his cheating and then in s2 it was guilt because they had slept together thus betraying a promise he had made to Tommy a few hours before. Then later on when he was with Sara, which in itself is a pretty selfish and douchey move in itself as far as Laurel is concerned, he treated Felicity like she was expendable and was obsessed with Sara's safety (the only person in danger who actually knew how to defend herself) and it basically resulted in him being so distracted, Thea was the one kidnapped just under his nose.

 

Loving Felicity seems to wake up the noble guy in him (he doesn't look at any other girls, just wants her to be happy) which can be frustrating sometimes I admit, but this Oliver is for me much more easier to root for. It might be cliché but I like the fact that they make each other better persons.

 

Felicity was angry at him at first or at least frustrated but it seemed like in 3x20 she came to terms with his self sacrificing tendencies and it's actually why she loves him, she said as much to Thea in 3x21.

I don't see how he treated Felicity like she was expendable. He was a bit oblivious to her insecurities for five minutes, but that was about it. He reassured her of her importance, he went along with her plan to blow up the Applied Sciences building, he listened to her -- more often than he ever listened to Sara, really -- he talked to her about some of his problems.

 

I also can't see how his "obsession" with keeping Sara safe, which lasted three-quarters of a single episode, has anything to do with Thea being taken. Thea was taken at the end of "Birds of Prey," during which Oliver showed no concern for Sara's safety, and Thea was out walking on her own and upset because Oliver had insisted Roy break up with her. Which was done out of Oliver's concern for Thea, as screwed up as it was. Sara had nothing to do with it.

 

Furthermore, if Oliver was so "obsessed" with Sara's safety to the detriment of others, he probably wouldn't have shielded Felicity from Slade in "The Man Under the Hood."

 

The Olicity relationship should be able to stand on its own without having to rewrite history to make all his other relationships look unhealthy and subtly pushing the blame for Oliver's mistakes on the other women in his life, especially when he's made more horrific, selfish choices this season while being in love with Felicity. He's "putting the mission first" and all that but he's done disgusting things like manipulating his sister into spending time with the man who brainwashed her into killing a friend all so he can learn how to one-up the guy who beat him in a previous fight. To say nothing of how selfish Felicity's been. Her total disregard for Thea and her gross drugging of Oliver in "The Fallen," the latter of which, let's face it, would have never been received as cute and romantic and understandable if the genders were reversed or if it was literally any other woman on this show doing it to someone they claim to care about, is the epitome of selfish.

Edited May 4, 2015 by GreatAtBoats

[apinknightmare]

The Olicity relationship should be able to stand on its own without having to rewrite history to make all his other relationships look unhealthy and subtly pushing the blame for Oliver's mistakes on the other women in his life, especially when he's made more horrific, selfish choices this season while being in love with Felicity. 

 

Oliver's had two "major" relationships on this show (that are non-flashback related and involving a dead person) apart from Felicity: one with Laurel, and one with her sister Sara. The same sister that he cheated on her with in the past. There isn't a single relationship on this show that has to be rewritten to look unhealthy to prop Olicity up. Those relationships were unhealthy before Felicity even became a part of Oliver's life, what with the incessant cheating and sister swapping and lying and whatnot. I mean, unless you think that's healthy. There was McKenna and Helena, but neither one of those was long-term. McKenna,  no one mentions again. And I doubt anyone would argue that his relationship with Helena was healthy in any way. Or about Olicity.

 

 

Her total disregard for Thea 

 

Uh...what? What disregard? She flew to Nanda Parbat to so that someone would be available to bring her back. She walked with and comforted Thea when they were trying to escape. She's obviously been talking to/looking out for/checking in with Thea since they've been back. Where exactly is the disregard? 

 

 

and her gross drugging Oliver in "The Fallen," the latter of which, let's face it, would have never been received as cute and romantic and understandable if the genders were reversed or if it was literally any other woman on this show doing it to someone they claim to care about, is the epitome of selfish.

 

Felicity drugging Oliver wasn't my favorite thing, she did drug him to keep him from joining a deadly group of assassins that he'd already decided to join, so yeah, she took away his agency. But then again, it's not like he wanted to join them - he'd been saying no for weeks, but crazy desperate was she. If Oliver drugged her to keep herself from turning herself over? I don't know that I'd be all that outraged over it. If Oliver or some other man drugged a woman to manipulate or assault or violate them? Yeah, I wouldn't have any of that. Honestly, I'd have to look at the circumstances of LITERALLY any other female on this show and what they did when they drugged their loved one before I'd judge. Sara letting Nyssa tranq Laurel during the siege last year and leaving her alone on the floor of the police station? Not cool. Diggle and Felicity tranqing Oliver to keep him from turning himself over to Slade? Okay by me. Do you think that's gross too? Honest question. What about when Felicity and Digg tranqed Barry in the train station to bring him back to the Foundry to save Oliver's life? Epitome of selfish or nah? 

Edited May 4, 2015 by apinknightmare