Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[ostentatious]

Haha I never knew that about Berlanti! Katie is definitely in world of her own.

Hah, yep, it's in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Billion-Dollar-Kiss-Dawsons-Adventures-Writing/dp/159240295X

Twice now this network has been not just saved by Berlanti's instincts but his instincts have created legendary ships.

I love reading these theories about them changing their plan early on. I can see where it makes sense, although I've always assumed it was a happy accident.

I never really considered any Olicity stuff truly intentional in s1, particularly early s1, but when I go back and re-watch scenes now there does seem to be some hints, especially in the way they edit things. The biggest example I can think of is the Diggle/Oliver scene where Diggle is telling him that when he meets the right person he'll be ready for her and then they cut to Felicity. I don't usually think about things like that but yeah. That was something.

I think her casting absolutely WAS a happy accident. I just think everything that happened after they shot her first scene was by varying degrees of design.

Their whole story has been a manifestation of Diggle's already the right fit line. It's like that "he fell in love the way you fall asleep; slowly, then all at once" line. Obviously Oliver was there for ALL the Olicity moments but the thing about Oliver is that he is The Worst at figuring out what he's feeling when he feels it and why. I think he also sits around and stews over things that people say, like Diggle's advice, like various people thinking Felicity is his girlfriend, Quentin saying she believes in him, how he felt when the Count had her, Diggle accusing him of jealousy, Sara walking away with that "you need someone to bring out the light inside you" line, and then weirdly enough Blood's "the one you love the most" line triggered the flood. And we had that Felicity believing in him line before a Blood said that, but once Blood said it I think EVERYTHING started hitting him. I think definitely in 206 he was articulating his recognition that she is someone he COULD fall in love with but until it all hit him at once, everything that had happened between them, everything others saw happening between them, he didn't realize that while he thought he'd been controlling himself and not falling in love, he was just once again clueless about his own feelings and motivations.

And I think both these things are true: Katie and Stephen have anti- chemistry, which is worse than no chemistry, AND the Lauriver backstory and entire concept was a nearly insurmountable barrier. However, I believe that if they had not decided so early to ditch them, if they had actors anyone could stomach together, they would've put in flashbacks and built it up. So I think the lack of chemistry was the REASON they didn't give them anything to work with. Why compound the problem, you know? It was so quickly obvious it had to be done away with that there was really no middle section where they were still kinda trying. The writers were done with Lauriver very early and Laurel was the contingency they really weren't considering but knew they couldn't count out.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[steeledwithakiss]

Interesting, Blood being the trigger for Oliver. I'd have to rewatch that scene. My headcanon is he realized he loved her during her "I believe in you speech" because he had that look and also for the way he acted wit her in the scenes after that. His voice, his demeanour, he was being extra careful and sweet with her,

[dtissagirl]

The thing is that while many people say SA and KC have NO chemistry - I don't think they ever had a chance.  The story and script was just so bad - how could actor chemistry save it?

 

Right from the start we know that Oliver cheated on Laurel with her sister. That's a lot to get over all by itself.  Him showing up after being dead for five years doesn't erase that.  Then we also see that Laurel is with Tommy and the pairing seems sweet.  Why would we want Laurel and Oliver together when that would hurt Tommy?  If they really do plan most of a season in advance - I see very little about season one that was supposed to make me want Laurel and Oliver to reunite.

 

I think yes, the writers completely underestimated audience reaction wrt the cheating with the sister thing. I think they honestly thought that was something they could have walked back. And I guess maybe if the actors chemistry was out of this world? Maybe it could have been walked back then? We'll never know.

 

But the thing about chemistry, is that the writing feeds off of that. And they did try to feed off the anti-chemistry, by writing Laurel and Oliver being angry/resentful/belligerent/frustrated/etc towards each other. And it still did not work. The majority of the audience was never interested in any kind of scene between Laurel and Oliver. And fairly quickly this same audience majority turned against Laurel, which was a complete separate problem from the lack of a viable romantic narrative... which is imo why they've clinged to the notion that people didn't like Laurel because she wasn't Black Canary, even after they solved the Love Interest problem.

[ostentatious]

Btw I screencapped the relevant pages from that book about Berlanti and DC here if anyone is interested:

http://fernlicity.tumblr.com/post/116119070635/a-conversation-elsewhere-made-me-wonder-if-the

Interesting, Blood being the trigger for Oliver. I'd have to rewatch that scene. My headcanon is he realized he loved her during her "I believe in you speech" because he had that look and also for the way he acted wit her in the scenes after that. His voice, his demeanour, he was being extra careful and sweet with her,

Isn't that the scene before? I think so. No, I think that was yet more information, but I think he's too...close then. Oliver is one of those guys who has to go away to process things. I don't think in the moment with Felicity he realized, but Blood made him actually ask himself the question, "Who is the person I love the most?" This meant he had to think double: who would Slade think I love most? Which, since that person is absolutely not who he loves the most...I think that was the series of light bulbs forced upon him.

"Who would Slade think I love? He would think I love Laurel, because I have successfully concealed Felicity from him no way he knows about -- ohh ffffffff"

And then I think inside it was probably a Who Is Kaiser Soze moment in his head. It all cascaded over him and he knew.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[Guest]

The thing is that while many people say SA and KC have NO chemistry - I don't think they ever had a chance.  The story and script was just so bad - how could actor chemistry save it?

 

Yeah, the backstory did them zero favors but I think it was the lack of chemistry that was the real problem. Personally speaking, I NEVER would have rooted for O/L based on the fact that he slept with her sister. That's a huge no for me. But there are people who would have got past that, had they any chemistry in the first place. I remember seeing comments on this forum last summer saying as much. Not many, but they were there. And then there's people who will root for anything just because a comic says so. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Guest

[nksarmi]

Yeah, the backstory did them zero favors but I think it was the lack of chemistry that was the real problem. Personally speaking, I NEVER would have rooted for O/L based on the fact that he slept with her sister. That's a huge no for me. But there are people who would have got past that, had they any chemistry in the first place. I remember seeing comments on this forum last summer saying as much. Not many, but they were there. And then there's people who will root for anything just because a comic says so. 

I admit that I watched the first two seasons of Arrow on Netflix but the lack of chemistry just didn't hit me.  To me, it was the story.  My dislike for Laurel started when she slept with Oliver and Tommy saw them.  And honestly, if Oliver hadn't been the hero who was risking his life to save the city - I might have hated him from that point on as well.

 

I have said that Oliver and Laurel being together again would be like connecting in a room full of ghosts - I just can't see how they could bring the couple back together in any realistic manner.  I could see the show ending with a kiss between them after years of being apart and being in other relationships and forming a mutual friendship and respect for each other.  But ultimately, I think any relationship between them would ultimately end in tragedy.  As far as I'm concerned, the writers never gave the characters a chance - and I think I would feel that way even if EBR were playing Laurel and the chemistry was amazing.

[Chaser]

I think where the chemistry comes into play is that if these two characters had fantastic chemistry you could at least understand why they were together pre series. As it is it's really hard to understand why they were together in the first place when the relationship didn't seem to fit either character.

Edited April 11, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Carrie Ann]

I mean, the most vocal group of shippers from The Vampire Diaries were for a girl and her boyfriend's brother, and there were levels of toxicity in that ship that L/O can't even approach. Chemistry is definitely an important factor that can make a lot of people forgive other defects in a ship. I think maybe we could all think of a ship or two that we were fans of despite dysfunction or what we would support IRL. (Logan & Veronica, for one example for me. Hell, even the previously mentioned Delena, for me, until they actually went through with it in the ickiest way possible, without allowing the toxic elements to...detoxify.)

 

But another thing about L/O that was hard to swallow is that it wasn't presented that way. It was presented as tragic, star-crossed, but not toxic until as @ostentatious points out, they started to maybe try to tank it. I mean, "Radioactive" for their sex scene. C'mon.

[CabotCove]

So it is conservative to put the line at Vertigo, which began preprod 7 working days after 103 aired, and is the episode in which she first revealed she's noticed how hot he is, and that has the trust scene at the end.

 

OK Im leaning towards putting the line at Verify but I can settle for Vertigo. 

[kismet]

Berlanti of course is famously the writer on DC who pushed the switch from Dawson/Joey to Pacey/Joey.

Ah Greg Berlanti, hero of saving shows from themselves. I really should send him a Thank you letter. He's been helping me watch excellent TV for years now (& not just DC or Arrow).

 

Anyway, I appreciate all the work & effort that (esp. ostentatious & dancingnancy) have done in providing evidence as to the EP's start of O/F. It has been interesting & fascinating. I enjoy having it on the board, so THANK YOU!

 

I will have to say that I believe that TPTB had decided early on that there was holes in their major O/L ship. I think they were scrambling for ways to make it work. Giving OQ other LIs, Tommy/LL romance, etc. Its probably why if you watch s1 you can root for O/L to get back together, and then on another viewing be like what the  hell were they thinking? Its very uneven and lacks a steady beat. By the end of s1, I don't think they were fully committed to discarding. If only because comics (which is a legit reason, since BC is a known LI for GA) & their egos. I do think that is why they decided to bring back Sara in s2. IMO, they saw Sara as their opportunity to do everything they wanted to do with BC & GA and almost give it a test run. They forgot however about the toxicity that whole scenario presents from all of its LL/OQ/SL baggage. It also doesn't erase the reality that its Dinah Laurel Lance that is BC, so even they had some success with canary/arrow it was never going to replace that actual comic canon pairing of GA/BC.

 

I honestly think that in s2, they tore LL down so much & gave her the addiction story because they thought it was a viable way to bring her & OQ back together. It probably felt like a realistic way (it does happen IRL). Tommy's death would have been a way, except they ruined that opportunity by having them sleep together in s1 with Tommy watching outside, so that way was tainted. But an addiction story, is a way OQ can reach out & try to save her, thereby reuniting them. However, it does not fix the obvious problem which is that SA/KC lack the chemistry to sustain a long-term on-screen romantic relationship.

 

When you think about the story of LL/OQ as star-crossed lovers finding their way back to each, true love giving second chances. There is nothing really wrong or extremely flawed in that narrative, its a beautiful narrative. However, when you see Arrow's overall execution of it, you realize it is flawed primarily because of the 2 main actors. It doesn't work, because there is no palpable spark between them that you see when they work with other people. I know chemistry is subjective, but to a certain degree it is also objective. When a significant amount of people (fans, reviewers, network execs, cast/crew) see the same thing or the lack of the same thing then it does become more quantifiable. Which is why after watching their addiction story fall flat and SA consistently having more chemistry with both CL & EBR, the writers opted to write the infamous hallway scene. It was them breaking up with their idea, more so than OQ walking away from LL. It truly was the writers way of saying we are done with this relationship that we imagined for years and allowing ourselves to be ready to move onto other opportunities. Which is probably why it is still one of MG's fav scenes. TBH, its one of my fav scenes because its authentic & emotionally raw. You feel that it wasn't an easy decision, but the best decision moving forward.

 

I believe they were probably looking for alternatives as early as S1b, but definitely by the start of s2. Enter FS, who in s1 was not set-up for LI, but was given enough moments here & there that you could trace back the origins. I think they used s1b & s2a as a way to test out their romantic options with both FS & SL. They were probably hesitant to fully commit to one or the other, which is why they played out multiple scenarios throughout the season. In s2, they allowed the partnership between O/F to grow stronger both verbally & non-verbally. They played up the actors' natural chemistry, wrote them some good script interchanges. Brought in a spin-off LI, saw the fans' response & jealous OQ. And I think their decision to permanently change the LI was decided by the end of s2a, with FS as the main contender because it easily fits their narrative & the connection is palpable. But I think to be sure that they were making the correct decision, as well as to act as the final nail in the coffin of O/L, they had SL & OQ pursue an actual romantic relationship.

 

The s2 SL/OQ relationship served multiple purposes. It helped set-up the Slade/Shado revenge. It gave OQ a healthier romantic relationship that allowed him to be both OQ & Arrow. In s1 he could be OQ with McKenna & Arrow with Helena, but he could not be his dual identity with either. It tested the waters for in-foundry romance. It gave SL more of a reason to be involved in SC. And it also fulfilled a version of Arrow/Canary on the screen, which is important to paying homage to the comics inspiration. But it also illustrated that it wasn't the best relationship for either of them. It was not a horrible or toxic relationship like LL/OQ, but it didn't bring out the best in them. It was a relationship based on mutual respect and love, but I don't think they were ever IN love. Which is the most important delineation. When you tell epic love stories you want the people to be IN love. FS & OQ can be, if not already are already, IN love with each other. That potential has been implied for over 2 years and now the reality of it is being written as such since s3 (at least from OQ's perspective).

[ostentatious]

OK Im leaning towards putting the line at Verify but I can settle for Vertigo.

Vertigo comes after Trust But Verify, but if you want to be less conservative than I was originally and go with Vertigo, I'm all for it. They may not have had the scenes written but they probably had the ep broken.

Hrm...I really don't think Sara was there because they were attached to a long term BC/GA relationship. POSSIBLY so they could say they checked the box off and now canon has been nodded to ok thx bye. But I don't think they were looking to a third option long term. If they were allowed to jettison Laurel they were going to do it for Felicity.

I think Sara was in S2 - which was probably earlier than originally intended - for the same reason Tommy died and Lauriver banged about two seasons early. Sara was probably supposed to come back JUUUUUST as Lauriver was working some things out, and Oliver's lies on that front would've provided a wedge to work with. But Lauriver was being obsoleted, so there was no longer ANY Lauriver drama they wanted to mine from that "betrayal." I mean when Laurel found out Sara was alive, she really was more angry at Quentin. She spread it around and Oliver told her to shut it basically. Imagine how the Sara reveal would've played if Lauriver was a thing. It would've been GIGANTIC. But they threw it away because they didn't need it, and they weren't interested in anything Oliver owed Laurel anymore.

However you can't hang on to Sara longer because you don't want to have to dredge Lauriver up again after you spend two seasons killing it...but you can't just never bring Sara back because we have all watched tv before and knew she was definitely not dead.

So they brought her back and kept her away from Laurel until she had already established relationships with Dig and Felicity, and re-established with Quentin. This meant Sara's return and Oliver's knowledge about Sara was no longer a story thread that "belonged" to Laurel.

This is something I've said before to fearful fans going "But HIMYM went with their dumb old plan so why wouldn't Arrow?" And the crucial difference is this: HIMYM was *their* dumb original plan. Theirs. GA and BC was *inherited* by the prods. Sure they were comics fans, but you know who AK, MG, and GB are bigger fans of than BC? Themselves.

Felicity *belongs to them*. Olicity *belongs to them*. They get the credit for that. Not only would bringing Lauriver back together be incredibly unpopular and unsuccessful, it would mean jettisoning THEIR WORK for somebody else's old creation.

Nope. Never happening. You wanna bet that the CW never again makes Berlanti take on a performer for that sort of role without a chem test and his full belief in them?

So yes, I think they absolutely are interested in their own egos...but their egos benefit more from Olicity than it would've from just shoving BC and GA together because somebody else came up with it 40 years ago.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[kismet]

But the thing about chemistry, is that the writing feeds off of that. And they did try to feed off the anti-chemistry, by writing Laurel and Oliver being angry/resentful/belligerent/frustrated/etc towards each other. And it still did not work. The majority of the audience was never interested in any kind of scene between Laurel and Oliver. And fairly quickly this same audience majority turned against Laurel, which was a complete separate problem from the lack of a viable romantic narrative... which is imo why they've clinged to the notion that people didn't like Laurel because she wasn't Black Canary, even after they solved the Love Interest problem.

 

They ruined Laurel to try to make their plan work. And I'm not sure if they can get her back to a better place, or how long it will take. Because a lot of her behaviors that can be irritating to audiences is now canon. They sorta twisted all of her better qualities in s1 and gave them a negative feel in s2. And now in s3, its just a mess character wise. Her journey to BC has been tarnished by a lot of what they allowed to happen to try to make their romantic narrative work.

Yeah, the backstory did them zero favors but I think it was the lack of chemistry that was the real problem. Personally speaking, I NEVER would have rooted for O/L based on the fact that he slept with her sister. That's a huge no for me. But there are people who would have got past that, had they any chemistry in the first place. I remember seeing comments on this forum last summer saying as much. Not many, but they were there. And then there's people who will root for anything just because a comic says so. 

I probably would have been one of those people. I think it is surmountable if Sara had remained dead. You can make an argument that they all were young and not fully aware of the hurt or consequences. OQ invited her on a cruise, he is indirectly responsible for her death by circumstance not choice. People can learn to forgive people who did not willingly put her life in danger. And they did show both LL & QL forgiving him for his involvement. The sleeping with her sister is not an admirable reality. But they were in their 20s. People do dumb things in their 20s. After the experiences he had on the island, he was a changed man. I think if they had be written to show that they had all changed & evolved since the accident, then I could forgive him for making a mistake and sleeping with my sister over 5+ years ago. LL is also not the same person she was pre-island. So there would have had to have been growth & changes on all sides. True love does give second chances, so it might have been possible with better writing/acting. But when they decided to bring SL back, it was all over from there. Its harder to forgive the mistake when she standing right in front of you, and oh yea they're sleeping together again. That is when the toxicity levels have reached the point of no return. Plus they are all post-island, so the choices are based on their current characters not who they were before. So them choosing to pursue a relationship can no longer be seen as just a casual young adult mistake. Its willingly choosing to be with someone over you, that is a completely different scenario.

 

I think where the chemistry comes into play is that if these two characters had fantastic chemistry you could at least understand why they were together pre series. As it is it's really hard to understand why they were together in the first place when the relationship didn't seem to fit either character.

Oh most definitely, if the chemistry had been there for L/O it could have overcome any script or writing issues. The narrative & plot did them no justice. The sister sleeping set a pretty steep mountain to climb. But it would have been doable if the chemistry had been present. Writers write what they want to see. Often writers have said they gain inspiration from what they observe on the screen. O/L was giving them very little inspiration, which is likely why the scripts started to take the turns they did.

[quarks]

I honestly think that in s2, they tore LL down so much & gave her the addiction story because they thought it was a viable way to bring her & OQ back together.

 

 

 

There's a couple of serious problems with this theory, though:

 

1. The tearing down of Laurel in season 2, and more specifically, the alcoholism plotline, happened just as the writers were amping up Felicity. In that first episode, you have Felicity going all the way to China and jumping out of a plane just to get Oliver back - AND revamping the Arrow Cave and buying him a new bow.  And swinging on ropes with him. Meanwhile, also in that first episode, you have Laurel announcing that she's going to be going after Oliver.  In the very next episode, you have Felicity with her "I love spending my nights with you," as Laurel is telling everyone what a horrible person the Hood is. My episode seven the media was calling Oliver/Felicity the main couple; by episode 9 Felicity had moved into the main love interest position.  So no, I don't think that the tearing down of Laurel was to bring her and Oliver Queen together - the entire point of season two was to stomp the hell out of that relationship.  Something continued, with the exception of "Guilty," in season 3.

 

2. They had to either fire the actress (which, for whatever reason, they didn't) or give Laurel something to do.  As it was, they had to leave her out of three episodes - episodes that they had to pay her for anyway.

 

3. They wanted to keep viewers guessing up to and right through the finale.  

[dtissagirl]

They ruined Laurel to try to make their plan work. And I'm not sure if they can get her back to a better place, or how long it will take. Because a lot of her behaviors that can be irritating to audiences is now canon. They sorta twisted all of her better qualities in s1 and gave them a negative feel in s2. And now in s3, its just a mess character wise. Her journey to BC has been tarnished by a lot of what they allowed to happen to try to make their romantic narrative work.

 

See, I disagree with this. The ruin was that Laurel ended up being an unfortunate, but catastrophic failure of a character, pretty much by inception. The character failed first, and then they had to come up with a plan to salvage the show. And Laurel didn't fail because of anything she did, really, she failed because the majority of the audience rejected the idea of watching five years of Oliver/Laurel as the main romantic couple.

 

And hey, Oliver failed too, because the anti-chemistry and total lack of credibility as the half of an endgame couple happened to him too. But they couldn't replace Oliver as Love Interest, 'cause, you know. The show is named after him.

 

What I find curious in all this -- and what I think I'm never gonna get a good explanation to -- is why they kept Laurel on the show after they realized her native place in the narrative wasn't working. TV shows aren't usually this kind to characters that fail, but Arrow has been incredibly kind to Laurel, giving the character chance after chance after chance at different narrative roles.

[ostentatious]

There was a three-way mismatch between Katie Cassidy, Laurel Lance the Arrow character as conceived and presented originally, and Dinah Laurel Lance, the Black Canary of comics.

Katie Cassidy could not pull off Laurel Lance. She is wrong for the role, in addition to lacking chemistry with the lead. She is right for MANY roles. Laurel as conceived forced her to hide all natural charisma. A ruinous casting mistake.

But importantly...

Laurel Lance as conceived and presented originally could not pull off *Dinah Laurel Lance, the Black Canary of comics.* Laurel's personality was changed to fit the LI role that their changed Oliver needed. So the character herself was miscast. But they'd changed Oliver's personality, and I get why. They made him more Bruce Lite, yes, but it made him more the kind of character who could eventually sit at the center of the DCTVU.

But the kinda sad thing is if we didn't have the fabulously fit and badass CL to compare her to, Katie Cassidy actually could pull off the current Laurel Lance, and the Black Canary they're presenting right now. Because they have changed the role to the kind of character KC can actually play.

If they wanted BC with GA they should've used some other woman as the woman he'd wronged and brought BC in already a fighter in like season two or three. But again, it's like these prods have never met a tell-not-show main couple they didn't love.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[kismet]

There's a couple of serious problems with this theory, though:

 

1. The tearing down of Laurel in season 2, and more specifically, the alcoholism plotline, happened just as the writers were amping up Felicity. In that first episode, you have Felicity going all the way to China and jumping out of a plane just to get Oliver back - AND revamping the Arrow Cave and buying him a new bow.  And swinging on ropes with him. Meanwhile, also in that first episode, you have Laurel announcing that she's going to be going after Oliver.  In the very next episode, you have Felicity with her "I love spending my nights with you," as Laurel is telling everyone what a horrible person the Hood is. My episode seven the media was calling Oliver/Felicity the main couple; by episode 9 Felicity had moved into the main love interest position.  So no, I don't think that the tearing down of Laurel was to bring her and Oliver Queen together - the entire point of season two was to stomp the hell out of that relationship.  Something continued, with the exception of "Guilty," in season 3.

 

2. They had to either fire the actress (which, for whatever reason, they didn't) or give Laurel something to do.  As it was, they had to leave her out of three episodes - episodes that they had to pay her for anyway.

 

3. They wanted to keep viewers guessing up to and right through the finale.  

I agree with some of your points. I'm not saying the primary purpose of the addiction story was to reunite O/L, but I think it was a consideration as possible tool in the future. It was a multipurpose story arc. It did work to give the actress something to do and provide a dark backstory for her hero journey. My theory was that a portion of the addiction story arc was their last hail mary in the writers room to make something work between O/L. They had spent a lot of $$ on KC & BC, so even if their idea of Olicity is better I can imagine a lot of suits demanding that they throw something in the story that might help them get back to their original gameplan. But clearly, as you pointed out as s2 developed they realized there was no point in trying to use the story arc that way. So they just ditched it and then used the remainder of the season to fully torpedo the L/O relationship.

[nksarmi]

For me, a couple comes down to more than chemistry - I need to enjoy their story.  There was nothing about the Laurel and Oliver story to enjoy - ever.  In fact, I can't think of a couple that I shipped that was based solely on chemistry.  I can think of a few where once they realized the chemistry was there, the writers altered one of the characters to make the story work (Emma and Hook on Once fit this bill in my opinion). 

 

But I can't come up with a couple where I thought, "Wow, their backstory sucks, but the characters sizzle together - let's watch and enjoy!"  I think the closest I've come to this was Phoebe and Cole on Charmed (but some people argued that the actors in that couple weren't the BEST chemistry - a lot of people said the actor was better with Prue/SD) but I only liked them when he was being portrayed as a bad guy who wanted to change because he loved her.  Once he went evil again, I had no desire to see their relationship saved.  I saw a lot of excuses and people wanting them repaired, but I couldn't get behind that.

 

For me, I just cannot enjoy chemistry if the story is bad.  But I can overlook low levels of chemistry if the story is fantastic and the actors work on selling it.  Like I said, just try replacing KC with Emily in the Laurel role and replaying the same episodes in your head.  Even if the scene where Oliver goes to Laurel in season one had sizzled, I still would not have cared because in my eyes they were both betraying Tommy.

[Password]

For me, a couple comes down to more than chemistry - I need to enjoy their story.  There was nothing about the Laurel and Oliver story to enjoy - ever.  In fact, I can't think of a couple that I shipped that was based solely on chemistry.  I can think of a few where once they realized the chemistry was there, the writers altered one of the characters to make the story work (Emma and Hook on Once fit this bill in my opinion). 

 

But I can't come up with a couple where I thought, "Wow, their backstory sucks, but the characters sizzle together - let's watch and enjoy!"  I think the closest I've come to this was Phoebe and Cole on Charmed (but some people argued that the actors in that couple weren't the BEST chemistry - a lot of people said the actor was better with Prue/SD) but I only liked them when he was being portrayed as a bad guy who wanted to change because he loved her.  Once he went evil again, I had no desire to see their relationship saved.  I saw a lot of excuses and people wanting them repaired, but I couldn't get behind that.

 

For me, I just cannot enjoy chemistry if the story is bad.  But I can overlook low levels of chemistry if the story is fantastic and the actors work on selling it.  Like I said, just try replacing KC with Emily in the Laurel role and replaying the same episodes in your head.  Even if the scene where Oliver goes to Laurel in season one had sizzled, I still would not have cared because in my eyes they were both betraying Tommy.

ITA.

[nksarmi]

So I binged watched Arrow on Netflix after this season had already started and even had to catch up on Hulu to get up to speed.  Ergo, some of the things that I'm noticing now just didn't bother me as much at first.  But now I'm starting to think about how much these EPs seem to love triangles.  In season one, we have Oliver/Laurel/Tommy, in season two we get Shado, Oliver, Sara (sort of) in the flashbacks and Sara, Oliver, Felicity (sort of) in the present, and in season three we've had Ray, Felicity, Oliver.

 

Is anyone else concerned about what they might do in season four?  There is no chance we are going to get Laurel/Oliver/Felicity is there?  That might break me.  Felicity/Oliver/Baby Mama - surely not right?  I am starting to wonder what the heck is coming next and I don't have a good feeling about it.

[NoWayOut]

At the time, was anyone else as surprised as I was that Felicity was included in Oliver's last dying thoughts or was it something you expected? I caught glimpses of Robert and Moira but missed seeing Thea and Felicity due to offscreen distraction. I totally expected Thea to be part of the sequence and figured it'd end with her. I had no idea Felicity was involved until I saw everyone freaking out about it on Twitter. I wouldn't have questioned their decision to exclude Felicity but the fact that the show made it a point to include her alongside his family, it came across as such a "This is it. She's the one" moment to me. It's a huge moment that they can't easily take back or pretend like it never happened. If we didn't have the GA/BC aspect of the comics looming over our heads, IMO, O/F would be perceived to be the foregone conclusion. But because comics, there are still some thinking O/F is impossible despite everything that's been/is being presented.

[Guest]

At the time, was anyone else as surprised as I was that Felicity was included in Oliver's last dying thoughts or was it something you expected? I caught glimpses of Robert and Moira but missed seeing Thea and Felicity due to offscreen distraction. I totally expected Thea to be part of the sequence and figured it'd end with her. I had no idea Felicity was involved until I saw everyone freaking out about it on Twitter. I wouldn't have questioned their decision to exclude Felicity but the fact that the show made it a point to include her alongside his family, it came across as such a "This is it. She's the one" moment to me. It's a huge moment that they can't easily take back or pretend like it never happened. If we didn't have the GA/BC aspect of the comics looming over our heads, IMO, O/F would be perceived to be the foregone conclusion. But because comics, there are still some thinking O/F is impossible despite everything that's been/is being presented.

 

Sigh. I love that moment. It actually meant more to me than Oliver's "I love you" earlier in the episode because it was just so weighted with meaning. I mean wow. She was his dying thought.

 

I was actually surprised though. In fact, I remember watching and cringing in anticipation because I thought well, if ever there's a time to put Laurel back in the game, showing her in his dying thoughts was it. And yeah, I probably only thought that way because of the comics history hanging over everything. So it was a very pleasant surprise for me personally.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Guest

[icandigit]

I think where the chemistry comes into play is that if these two characters had fantastic chemistry you could at least understand why they were together pre series. As it is it's really hard to understand why they were together in the first place when the relationship didn't seem to fit either character.

I binged watched through netflix. And I remember instinctively looking for something to show why they were together. And the ice cream scene came. I knew that would be the thing that helped me connect to their story. It was so disappointing. Not because it lacked romance, but they just never seemed like people who would even be friends. Forget them being lovers. I don't understand why they know each other. Even now their scenes just aren't enjoyable to me.

Edited April 11, 2015 by icandigit

[olicityfan25]

I think it really says something about Stephen when he talked about having Oliver just being about one woman for season 3. He never felt like that before in season 1 and 2 or he just didn't mention it. Which tells me he really wants Oliver to value Felicity.

[kismet]

At the time, was anyone else as surprised as I was that Felicity was included in Oliver's last dying thoughts or was it something you expected? I caught glimpses of Robert and Moira but missed seeing Thea and Felicity due to offscreen distraction. I totally expected Thea to be part of the sequence and figured it'd end with her. I had no idea Felicity was involved until I saw everyone freaking out about it on Twitter. I wouldn't have questioned their decision to exclude Felicity but the fact that the show made it a point to include her alongside his family, it came across as such a "This is it. She's the one" moment to me. It's a huge moment that they can't easily take back or pretend like it never happened. If we didn't have the GA/BC aspect of the comics looming over our heads, IMO, O/F would be perceived to be the foregone conclusion. But because comics, there are still some thinking O/F is impossible despite everything that's been/is being presented.

Pleasant surprise. Thought it was sorta bold move. TBH, I thought when he told he loved her, it meant that he loved her but was not in love with her (or at least that was gonna be the spin). That was the angle I thought they would use moving forward to get out of having them together. But they went a different route. So when they had her as the dying thought, I was like damn looks like the boy might really be in love this time. Which then only made 3b, so much more frustrating because he is literally working against his own gut instincts & feelings to prioritize her happiness. I mean true love is putting another's needs before your own. So I think if 3b has shown anything, it proves that OQ is truly in love with FS, because he is putting her above his own wants & desires. That's a big step for someone with his dating history. Something he's never really done before. It also indicates just how psychological scarred OQ's feeling of self-worth is and how he feels his life does not deserve such things or he is not worthy enough for her. As mentioned before, the poor boy needs a good decent hug and loads of therapy to work through his pre & post island issues of intimacy & relationships.

[ostentatious]

At the time, was anyone else as surprised as I was that Felicity was included in Oliver's last dying thoughts or was it something you expected? I caught glimpses of Robert and Moira but missed seeing Thea and Felicity due to offscreen distraction. I totally expected Thea to be part of the sequence and figured it'd end with her. I had no idea Felicity was involved until I saw everyone freaking out about it on Twitter. I wouldn't have questioned their decision to exclude Felicity but the fact that the show made it a point to include her alongside his family, it came across as such a "This is it. She's the one" moment to me. It's a huge moment that they can't easily take back or pretend like it never happened. If we didn't have the GA/BC aspect of the comics looming over our heads, IMO, O/F would be perceived to be the foregone conclusion. But because comics, there are still some thinking O/F is impossible despite everything that's been/is being presented.

In 301 when Oliver is making his speech, he says there's nothing more important to him than family. So the fact that indisputably, to Oliver, his family consists of those four people...yeah.

I binged watched through netflix. And I remember instinctively looking for something to show why they were together. And the ice cream scene came. I knew that would be the thing that helped me connect to their story. It was so disappointing. Not because it lacked romance, but they just never seemed like people who would even be friends. Forget them being lovers. I don't understand why they know each other. Even now their scenes just aren't enjoyable to me.

To me, Laurel feels like a woman who doesn't have male friends. I could buy she had a squad of girls she controlled, and then various boyfriends, but she is not...she doesn't seem like someone who is friends with attractive eligible men. Sara and Felicity absolutely do. Sara is a hot jock and would have the respect and friendship of other hot jocks. Felicity would be hanging out with the chess club. But Laurel...no. Laurel wouldn't bond with guys except to date them. She just isn't fun to be around. No common interests, and she is difficult to be near. She isn't laid back. All the women I know who have really good, close male friends are easygoing, easy to be with. Don't make you feel judged and wrong all the time. Now, I *can* believe she hung "Property of Laurel Lance" signs around Oliver and Tommy's necks in like 9th grade and growled every time any other girl got near them.

I think it really says something about Stephen when he talked about having Oliver just being about one woman for season 3. He never felt like that before in season 1 and 2 or he just didn't mention it. Which tells me he really wants Oliver to value Felicity.

I think that Stephen being such a...he's such a husband and dad. His own father walked out IIRC, super close with his mom...I remember he said sometime maybe early last summer that a meme somebody had posted on his FB that was Felicity saying something about being right there but "you keep sleeping with other girls." I remembered the image at the time. Anyway, he said he saw that and it really bothered him because it was right, and he talked to the prods. I got the sense that he said let's just be DONE with Oliver sleeping around. Being a husband and father is so important to him that I think that yes, they're heading that way with him (there is that Berlanti quote from around 301 where he says "there aren't a lot of superheroes who are married") and I think it has a lot to do with Stephen.

And idk, I don't really adore this whole concept of selfless love and I just want you to be happy Felicity, even if it isn't with me. I kind of think, fuck that, that means you don't really want her that much. But I believe romantic love has selfishness to it. This isn't agape or philia, this is eros. Want, take, have. Reach, try. Want to feel burning flames when you say my name, etc etc. I think Oliver has learned to be afraid of passion and feeeeeeeeeling too intensely, like that makes him out of control, but sublimating all your passion is NOT a virtue. He is too much a heart and passion guy. Cutting that off takes away his ability to use the best parts of himself.

You can't just *accept* things, Oliver.

Desire may be the root of all suffering, but avoiding it is currently the root of yours.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[SmallScreenDiva]

At the time, was anyone else as surprised as I was that Felicity was included in Oliver's last dying thoughts or was it something you expected? ...

 

I can't say I expected it. But when they showed his dad and mom, I started screaming OMG! OMG! sort of anticipating them showing Felicity. And when they did ... well, let's just say it's a good thing the show airs at 8 and my neighbors are still very much awake. That his mind included Felicity among his family, the people he loves the most, is a huge tell (and sign from the show).

 

I think that Stephen being such a...he's such a husband and dad. His own father walked out IIRC, super close with his mom...I remember he said sometime maybe early last summer that a meme somebody had posted on his FB that was Felicity saying something about being right there but "you keep sleeping with other girls." I remembered the image at the time. Anyway, he said he saw that and it really bothered him because it was right, and he talked to the prods. I got the sense that he said let's just be DONE with Oliver sleeping around. Being a husband and father is so important to him that I think that yes, they're heading that way with him (there is that Berlanti quote from around 301 where he says "there aren't a lot of superheroes who are married") and I think it has a lot to do with Stephen.

 

I do remember Stephen bringing up that meme and also the quote from Berlanti, which I always thought was curious because I don't think anybody was seriously thinking of Oliver and Felicity and marriage in the same sentence. I mean, fanfics, sure! But O/F hadn't even dated at that point as this was before Season 3 started. It was really interesting to hear that.

[olicityfan25]

Not only that but based on the show she was his last "dying" thought and his first thought when he wakes up. :)

[statsgirl]

And idk, I don't really adore this whole concept of selfless love and I just want you to be happy Felicity, even if it isn't with me. I kind of think, fuck that, that means you don't really want her that much. But I believe romantic love has selfishness to it. This isn't agape or philia, this is eros. Want, take, have. Reach, try. Want to feel burning flames when you say my name, etc etc. I think Oliver has learned to be afraid of passion and feeeeeeeeeling too intensely, like that makes him out of control, but sublimating all your passion is NOT a virtue. He is too much a heart and passion guy. Cutting that off takes away his ability to use the best parts of himself.

You can't just *accept* things, Oliver.

Desire may be the root of all suffering, but avoiding it is currently the root of yours.

I get the feeling that telling everyone that he just wants Felicity to be happy is the equivalent of holding his hand over a flame, he wants to see how much he can take before the pain gets to be too much, and then he does it again to see if he can stand some more because he wants to be strong.

 

Not being able to allow himself to have Felicity justifies a lot of what he does. And doesn't necessarily need to do, as Diggle will tell him.

 

 

To me, Laurel feels like a woman who doesn't have male friends. I could buy she had a squad of girls she controlled, and then various boyfriends, but she is not...she doesn't seem like someone who is friends with attractive eligible men.

I don't see her as having a lot of female friends either. Acquaintances, yes, but she's not the sort of person you'd invite over to giggle about your boyfriends with as you paint each other's toenails ridiculous colors. She'd have some friends, like Joanna, who are smart and successful as she is herself, but given how she behaved with Diggle and Felicity in the first two seasons, I don't see her as the kind of person who would get to know the cleaning lady in her office building and ask about her children and if her husband's bad back is acting up.

[wingster55]

Berlanti pushed for Pacey-Joey, the pairing that ruined all growth Dawson had in season 2, assasinated the character of Andie and painted Pacey as the romantic hero even when he was being ultra-manipulative saying things like "Ask me to stay" etc.

Yeesh. 

 

I digress. 

[wonderwall]

lmao I always hated Dawson :p He was never a character I enjoyed. I watched season 1, then quit, then heard of Pacey and Joey and watched sporadically :p

[CooperTV]

It is, of course, OT, but Dawson never even had any character development. He always was first class entitled selfish douchebag. (And the show always treated him like the perfect persecuted angel).

 

*cue ancient wank*

[ostentatious]

Yep. Berlanti had the creative and strategic instincts to look at the facts on the ground and redeploy troops and other resources successfully. Multiple times. Thus, he is trusted with lots of money and responsibility. This is what happens when people do their jobs really well.

Who gives a shit about Dawson or Andie or anything else if the show can't be written and produced and thus gets cancelled?

This is why I like TV. It's craft, and it's project management. And it's for people who scramble to think about what they CAN do, and then execute, and who can improvise, and who have more than just one idea.

Edited April 12, 2015 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

To this day, my group of real life friends and I refer do douchey guys -- you know, the "Nice Guy" variety that always creeps along when you're distracted -- with "ugh, he's such a Dawson." Forever grateful for that, Kevin Williamson.

[tarotx]

Someone should move this Dawson's Creek talk. It's interesting.

Edited April 12, 2015 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

I think the comparison with DC stands here, because it's the same guy [berlanti] doing something similar in Arrow with what he had to do on Dawson's Creek. The native main relationship had put the writers room in a rut there as well, and replacing one character's narrative role for another, somewhat unexpected one, worked out really well for that show... and so far, it solved Arrow's narrative problem as well.

[tarotx]

Yeah I can see that. I just find reading about TV decisions interesting and going into the good or bad about another show might anger people who didn't watch that show And are here for only the Arrow relationships. I like reading this stuff even though I didn't watch it after the first few episodes because I didn't like Dawson :p

Edited April 12, 2015 by tarotx

[willpwr]

"That still doesn't deny the fact that up till that point, Laurel was more important to Oliver than Diggle was. Oliver has never mistreated Diggle whilst being in love with Felicity. Because his love for her doesn't cloud his judgement. And isn't that the kind of relationship that is good for Oliver and his relationship with Diggle?

Laurel still calls Oliver out on his shit (in fact KC prides in Laurel doing so) in almost every episode. Nothing has changed in that regard so I don't understand the point you're making? The point is that Oliver rarely (if ever) listens to Laurel when she does so and that has nothing to do with Felicity or Diggle. It has more to do with the crappy relationship they've cultivated ever since the pilot. He listens to Diggle and Felicity, though. And Laurel has never been a moral compass to Oliver. She'd been his shame because of what he did to her and her family so saying that she was or could've been his moral compass is pretty fallacious."

 

Bringing this over from Public Appearaces...

 

I fully agree with this but would also like to add that Felicity has actually helped Oliver see that what he did to Diggle by prioritizing Laurel over him was wrong. Diggle and Felicity usually back each other up. The "find another way" speech was initiated by Diggle but Felicity finished it, that to me shows their partnership. They both stand up for each other which is why an Oliver/Felicity relationship should never, if done correctly, diminish Diggle because Felicity will not put up with is (which has been shown in the past) and they all respect, value and trust each other,

 

Laurel took it for granted in Season 1 that she was Oliver's priority, asking for Felicity's job, etc. In Season 2 basically kicking out the rest of TA out of the Arrow Cave as if they did not matter so that she could talk to Oliver. 

 

Oliver with Laurel is going backwards, he needs to move forwards, at this point it seems like Felicity makes the most sense. I want my heroes to grow.

[KirkB]

I could see young Laurel as a clique leader, the kind of person who attracts shallow, like-minded people who agree with her (she couldn't be bothered with people who didn't). That said, she probably wasn't friends with any of them and didn't have many, if any, real friends because on some level they wouldn't be good enough for her. Tommy and Oliver, on the other hand, were handsome and rich. Oliver was dumb as a box of rocks, in her eyes, and Tommy was easy to manipulate. So the two of them, and later primarily Oliver, became her focus. Maybe she really loved Oliver, maybe she didn't, but molding him into the man she deserved and becoming Mrs. Laurel Queen turned into her driving goal.

[ostentatious]

I'm speed-watching s1 today. You know what's remarkable? From The Odyssey forward, there are so incredibly few L/O scenes and mentions, and the ones that aren't just throwaway scenes wind up proving a point to Oliver or Oliver getting wise counsel from someone about her, and the lessons and messages are all the same: NO.

Speaking of the Picture of Doom, do we ever see that thing again after The Odyssey, when its purpose is to give Slade the opportunity to hear the story and be like LOLOL no, kid.

I could see young Laurel as a clique leader, the kind of person who attracts shallow, like-minded people who agree with her (she couldn't be bothered with people who didn't). That said, she probably wasn't friends with any of them and didn't have many, if any, real friends because on some level they wouldn't be good enough for her. Tommy and Oliver, on the other hand, were handsome and rich. Oliver was dumb as a box of rocks, in her eyes, and Tommy was easy to manipulate. So the two of them, and later primarily Oliver, became her focus. Maybe she really loved Oliver, maybe she didn't, but molding him into the man she deserved and becoming Mrs. Laurel Queen turned into her driving goal.

Oliver and Tommy also both have mommy issues. Tommy's mommy is dead, Oliver's is eternally disappointed in him. That makes them very easy for a domineering girl to control. Ultimately Tommy is more vulnerable to this because he just responds better to withholding approval, Oliver resents it, and stages petty secret rebellions...just like he probably does at home. Edited April 12, 2015 by ostentatious

[manbearpig]

IIRC, Shado sees the picture of Laurel sometime in season two. I mean, there was definitely a scene where Shado reacted to Sara being Laurel's sister, right?

[AyChihuahua]

That wasn't the picture.  Shado asks Oliver "who is that girl" about Sara after Oliver drags Sara away from Ivo.  It's actually quite funny: Oliver tells Shado that Sara is Laurel's sister, and the look on Shado's face...never saw a woman stop digging a dude so instantaneously.

[ostentatious]

That wasn't the picture.  Shado asks Oliver "who is that girl" about Sara after Oliver drags Sara away from Ivo.  It's actually quite funny: Oliver tells Shado that Sara is Laurel's sister, and the look on Shado's face...never saw a woman stop digging a dude so instantaneously.

So in 2a, both Shado and Felicity get to make it clear how truly gross it is? That's awesome.

[manbearpig]

Yeah, my memory of that season is a little fuzzy. I remember really enjoying the flashbacks that season and was pretty interested in seeing the dynamic between Oliver, Shado, Sara and Slade progressing, and then they killed Shado, botched Slade, my interest in Oliver waned and Sara was pretty much singlehandedly keeping me interested in the island shenanigans because I thought the writers put her in some interesting predicaments.

 

EDIT: AH, why am I so obsessed with the word 'interest'. I should purchase a thesaurus. Or at least read my posts before, um, posting.

Edited April 12, 2015 by manbearpig

[SmallScreenDiva]

So in 2a, both Shado and Felicity get to make it clear how truly gross it is? That's awesome.

 

Could you refresh my memory? In which ep did Felicity react to the whole sister-swapping debacle?

[Morrigan2575]

That wasn't the picture. Shado asks Oliver "who is that girl" about Sara after Oliver drags Sara away from Ivo. It's actually quite funny: Oliver tells Shado that Sara is Laurel's sister, and the look on Shado's face...never saw a woman stop digging a dude so instantaneously.

I believe that's the only time the picture was mentioned in S2. It was never shown (unless it popped up in 211).

I don't think Oliver even has the picture in Hong Kong. I suspect the picture won't pop up until S5 after Oliver goes back to the Island to stage his rescue. That's the only way I can see them tying it back to S1 Oliver. He finds the picture on Lian Yu while surrounded by ghosts (Sara, Shado, Slade, Yao FeI) and latches onto the picture as a cymbol of home.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

Kudos to Celina Jade for that facial expression.

 

Occasionally someone will ask MG what happened to the picture of Laurel and he'll say it's still around. I wonder if it gets pulled out late season 5 when Oliver decides to return to  Starling City.

 

Oliver and Tommy also both have mommy issues. Tommy's mommy is dead, Oliver's is eternally disappointed in him. That makes them very easy for a domineering girl to control. Ultimately Tommy is more vulnerable to this because he just responds better to withholding approval, Oliver resents it, and stages petty secret rebellions...just like he probably does at home.

It's scary how much like Moira Laurel was.  I always thought that Moira approved of Laurel because she could be the society wife Oliver Queen should have, and certainly didn't approve of Felicity.

 

I think they could have done so much more with the Laurel character if they had been willing to turn her bad for a while because there was so much potential there  The writers could have redeemed her a few seasons along. At this point I can't think of anything interesting to do with Laurel next season; she's got the name and role, and unlike Roy, Diggle (HIVE) and Felicity (father)  there isn't a backstory to be mined because we know all about the Lances now.

 

From the Behind the Scenes thread:

 

In season 1 when Oliver was in love with Laurel, the relationship with Diggle was still the most important in the show.

Now I'm not begrudging Felicity's role...but her being the love interest was bound to diminish Diggle's role (as well as Laurel's) since she can play the Team Arrow confidant, and love interest.

You mention when Felicity was left out of a conversation between Oliver and Diggle. I recall times when Diggle was literally just observing in the background when Oliver and Felicity talked. When Oliver was fighting Ra's that first time and saying his goodbyes...his farewell to Diggle was seriously lame. He may not have known it was the "last time" but the audience did...should have had more. 

But it would have happened with Laurel too as soon as she found out that Oliver was The Arrow.  The only reason Diggle was more important than Laurel in the early episodes was because she didn't know Oliver's secrets.

 

Felicity and Oliver have conversations that don't include Diggle, and Diggle has them with Oliver that don't include Felicity.  The conversations most people refer to about Felicity being left out are the two in Verdant/lair in Nanda Parbat where Diggle asked everyone to leave so he could talk to Oliver alone, and later in Nanda Parbat itself when it was the two of them and Oliver finally talked about real things for the first time since Sara (an episode where he had meaningful conversations with both Diggle and Felicity but separately. Those conversations were about Oliver/Arrow and what he should do, and in late season 1 and definitely season 2, Felicity would have been included in them. Instead, She was in the room, she could have been included but instead Diggle asked her to leave as he asked Roy and Laurel to leave.

 

I'm not sure what you think should have been added to Oliver's goodbye to Diggle. Diggle offered to go with Oliver, Oliver turned him down.They were a couple of soldiers and most of what they were feeling would have been unsaid.

 

In some ways in s1 [laurel] was there to call Oliver out on his bs (which other did as well granted) and be in some ways a moral compass. Now it's just Felicity with Diggle sprinkled in far too seldom. 

Laurel yelled at Oliver enough but she couldn't call him out on his bs because she didn't know his secret.  She didn't know who he was at all.  She yelled at him for being unfaithful and for being worthless but never on his real b.s. (martyrdom) which is what Diggle has been repeatedly calling him out on especially this season.

 

In season 1, Diggle was the one who called Oliver out on his b.s. and later Tommy.  Felicity took up some of the role in season 2, but it's been mostly no one in season 3 except the audience and occasionally Diggle but Oliver's still not listening.

Edited April 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[looptab]

But he did make magically appear from his pocket the Picture of Doom when Shado asked about Sara. We are supposed to believe it's always been there, and never fell from his pocket ;)

[Password]

*gasp* Perhaps this is what the writers planned all along. The picture will return in season 5, battered and bruised but still in tact. A clear sign of where Lauriver would be at.

...have I just cracked this puzzle?

Edited April 12, 2015 by Password

[apinknightmare]

*gasp* Perhaps this is what the writers planned all along. The picture will return in season 5, battered and bruised but still in tact. A clear sign of where Lauriver would be at.

...have I just cracked this puzzle?

 

It's in Oliver's wallet, and Felicity's going to find it one day and realize that he's loved Laurel, all this time, despite the fact that the picture was stuck to the back of his expired AAA membership card. 

 

 

 

(I'm being mean, I'll stop.)

[Morrigan2575]

But he did make magically appear from his pocket the Picture of Doom when Shado asked about Sara. We are supposed to believe it's always been there, and never fell from his pocket ;)

I don't remember him pulling out the picture, I just remember it being mentioned. Oliver tells Shado that Sara is Laurel's sister and Shado says "the girl in the picture?" I don't recall it actually being shown.