Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[ostentatious]

I felt like with that whole "I should stay..." thing Oliver did know he shouldn't go, and was just trying to not have to say it outright. I do think he was quite vexed with Felicity for not allowing him that excuse. Normally she would have allowed it, just wouldn't have said anything, but she was not in the mood to deal with him right then so she *called* him on it. He could've been a big boy and refused to go for the very correct reason that it was inconsiderate and unnecessarily inflammatory, of course. Felicity didn't force him to go. But it was OOC for her to snatch his excuse away and he has no idea what her deal is and is confused and she won't talk to him about it, so yes, I think he was mad. Which for Oliver iirc means his jaw got tight, his nostrils flared, and he glared a bit, which is actually an excessive emotional display. And so he was already feeling quite put out, before he even showed up at Laurel's. Also, he knew he was wrong to be at Laurel's, so some irritation with himself for not staying home was bubbling. He just lost his temper, period, for a cluster of reasons.

Even people on the internet who are not fans of the character find ways to make Laurel more understandable and launch better arguments on her behalf than the writers do. It is baffling.

Edited January 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[patchwork]

It takes a lot for me to be on Laurel side but Sara and Oliver going to her house for dinner and making goo-goo eyes at each definitely managed it.  Especially as the narrative seemed to want me to be on Sara and Oliver's.

 

Oliver's smackdown was a long time coming but I didn't get to enjoy it because of what kicked it off.

[dtissagirl]

It's kind of funny for me, because I have a hard time accepting Oliver lecturing ANYONE about ANYTHING ever, really [remember when he lectured Moira about lies? OH TROLOLOLOL], but my complete inability to connect with Laurel made that hallway scene just plain uncomfortable for me to watch. I could feel the cognitive dissonance happening while I was hiding my eyes behind my fingers and cringing so much it hurt my head. Because rationally I knew I should be on Laurel's side, but emotionally I agreed with Oliver. This show is the wrong kind of mindfuck sometimes.

Edited January 11, 2015 by dancingnancy

[tv echo]

Sara and Oliver were both emotionally messed up people.  They both spent five years in constantly stressful, life-and-death situations, so they probably developed a mindset during those years that it's okay to take comfort when and where you can.  So while I can blame them for hooking up while pre-island Oliver was with Laurel, and I can blame Sara for never apologizing to Laurel, I can't blame them for hooking up upon their return when they were both free agents.  However, they both should've known that going to the Lance family dinner together was wrong.  I agree that Sara knew what she was doing, but Oliver was just thoughtless.

 

As for Felicity taking away Oliver's excuse for not going to the Lance family dinner, she was understandably upset at the time for her perceived failure to do her 'job' as a member of Team Arrow and just wanted everyone to leave her alone.  The only two choices for Oliver were not (1) stay in the Arrowcave or (2) go to the Lance family dinner.  Oliver could've just said to Sara "I don't think it's a good idea for me to go with you" or "I don't want to hurt Laurel" and then left on his own to go somewhere else.

Edited January 11, 2015 by tv echo

[ostentatious]

When I point out the effect Felicity had upon that negotiation, it isn't about blame.

Basically, one of the few consistently written emotional relationships on this show is theirs. I know how they impact each other. While it is difficult for me to figure out why Sara would want Oliver to go and why Oliver would not just say no, it is not difficult for me to figure out how Oliver would feel when Felicity, who has been out of sorts for days in a passive aggressive way from his POV but who keeps basically saying oh nothing's wrong I'm FINE, pipes up to take away his little excuse, and in doing so is basically telling him to go away. Has she ever told him to go away before?

So those are the moments that stick with me. They have truth and consistency. I can't tell you what festering stew was really going on with him, but I do know that having what are in effect his Three Girlfriends being messy - Felicity as described, Laurel wasted and hostile, and Sara actually asking him to do this fucked up thing - are ingredients in that festering stew. And I don't know why Sara asked him, but I do know why Felicity told him to go.

[Happy Harpy]

Oliver's smackdown was a long time coming but I didn't get to enjoy it because of what kicked it off.

Exactly. And believe me, I would have popped the champagne if Oliver finally put Laurel's entitled -imo- self in her place in a way I could get behind; but while my heart was all "yeah, finally!" my brain was "Hey, not right!", like said.

At the time, I was quite lost because I, too, felt that the Sara/Oliver romantic angle was sudden and I didn't get why Laurel, the Sacred Cow so far, was being kind of getting the Ron the Deatheater treatment. Here's why.

 

I had taken Sara's line about "some things better kept in the past" (not verbatim, maybe) as establishing that Oliver and Sara would be exes who cared for each other, counted for each other, and didn't forget they were an item at one time but, refreshingly for a TV show, understood that they had too much baggage/didn't work out/weren't The One for each other (because Sara's OTL was Nyssa, damn it!)  and were better off as friends. So, it made no sense to me and I was disappointed because of what was imo a cliché, because it made me think that Shado was fridged in order to get rid of the "other woman" on the island in favor of some Sara/Oliver epic romance building, and because it seemed to be about Oliver and Sara being angry  and getting back at other people (namely Laurel, for one) and not about them.

 

Then, with Oliver's rant in the hall I really thought that maybe the writers would do the ultimate swap, and replace Laurel with Sara because she worked better as the Black Canary so they made Laurel the "bad" sister and Sara the "good" one. I thought that what mattered was to get the BC/GA relationship, at any cost (Team Arrow, any character, the show's coherence). I just thought they were as awkward at it as they had been at establishing Laurel as the ultimate fan favorite -since obviously, she's a polarizing character-  and were trashing one sister in order to prop the other.

But now, looking back, and considering the way they literally fridged Sara and sacrificed her for Laurel, I think it was some Alas Poor Scrappy Gambit. There's one thing that always made me frown: Sara was so humble and ashamed in S2-A, she never seemed to believe that her suffering since the Queen Gambit paid for her past mistakes or that she could be forgiven; so how come she never apologized, or never took responsibility, for sleeping with her sister's boyfriend? It didn't fit with what I had seen of her, and since she was imo quite a well-defined character, I can only think that she wasn't allowed to, per OOC writing.

That's what made me think that the writers used the Sara/Oliver romantic relationship in order to victimize and garner sympathy for Laurel, while siccing the Oliver/Felicity fans against Sara via the hook-up.

But I think they underestimated the tenuous connection that Laurel had with the general audience, aside from her character and KC fans; so it didn't work to prop Laurel, getting raised eyebrows at best, but it worked to make Sara unsympathetic in the eye of a certain number of people, making it a lose/lose. Jmho of course.

 

On a side note, I'm rewatching S2 and wow, I didn't realize how intense the Oliver/Felicity scenes were. And I can't believe how the casting managed to strike gold twice with Teen Arrow, after Team Arrow. Thea, Roy and Sin didn't have many scenes but damn, they work so well together and I want them back - and I'm all the more surprised since I'm usually not keen at all on teenagers-focused show. 

Edited January 11, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Morrigan2575]

But now, looking back, and considering the way they literally fridged Sara and sacrificed her for Laurel, I think it was some Alas Poor Scrappy Gambit.

I always figured thay was one of the reasons for the S/O hookup. They couldn't make Laurel work on her own, everything they tried failed horribly. So why not make her the victim? Have her sister that stole her life (213) once again betray Laurel by sleeping with Oliver (again) and by rubbing the relationship in addict Laurel's face...poor Laurel (hah).

The problem was that people were just to riled up and too annoyed with Laurel anyway. All that resulted (from what I remember) were massive comments about the EPs throwing Oliver and Sara under the bus to prop up Laurel. How the entire O/S hookup made no sense and came out of nowhere, how they couldn't even enjoy the smack down because it was so OOC and wrong time, etc. Even the follow up with S/L made little sense, why was Laurel the only one to apologize?

Basically all of that was done (IMO) for outside reasons. They wanted another road block for Olicity (stated that out rightĺ and they wanted to set up the ILY twist in 223, so they had to play down anything Olicity related so S/O weren't just f*ck buddies they were in love over night, from 0-60 in 2 minutes.

They wanted to redeem Laurel, so S/O become the bad guys to gain Laurel sympathy.

They also wanted to resolve the drunk Laurel storyline that went nowhere so, bam Oliver yells at her and magically Laurel is on the path to AA.

None of that, IMO was organic, all of it was sacrificing characters to service plots, we want x character in this position by this episode, how do we make it happen?

Edited January 11, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

 I can't blame them for hooking up upon their return when they were both free agents.  

 

I do blame them. I think I blame them more for the present time hook-up than for the past one, as wrong as that was; but back then they were younger and foolish. After all they went through you'd think they'd have more maturity and respect for the people around them, namely Laurel, especially since the person they cheated on wasn't some random girl, completely forgettable and with no existing relation to them whatsoever, but her sister. I'm sorry, that's just something you don't do, IMO. And while it's true that Oliver was a free agent, so maybe we could cut him some slack here, I can't do the same for Sara. If you are truly sorry your sister is mad at you, and hope to rebuilt a relationship with her, starting a relationship with  her ex-boyfriend again it's not the way to go. Maybe I'm just being overtly judgmental here, sorry :)

Anyway, add me to those that in the hallway scene was siding with Oliver, while thinking "This is so wrong!"

 

Happy Harpy and Morrigan, you made very good points, and I agree with most of what you've written. Basically, the bottom line as always is, they underestimated how much people dislike Laurel, so they tried and failed. (I had to look up Ron the Deatheater, didn't know about that lol)

 

P.S. Something I forgot to mention earlier, another WTF moment for me in the Sara/Oliver relationship was when he suggested they should look for an apartment. Really??? I mean, really???

Edited January 11, 2015 by looptab

[Chasity]

I always figured thay was one of the reasons for the S/O hookup. They couldn't make Laurel work on her own, everything they tried failed horribly. So why not make her the victim? Have her sister that stole her life (213) once again betray Laurel by sleeping with Oliver (again) and by rubbing the relationship in addict Laurel's face...poor Laurel (hah).

The problem was that people were just to riled up and too annoyed with Laurel anyway. All that resulted (from what I remember) were massive comments about the EPs throwing Oliver and Sara under the bus to prop up Laurel. How the entire O/S hookup made no sense and came out of nowhere, how they couldn't even enjoy the smack down because it was so OOC and wrong time, etc. Even the follow up with S/L made little sense, why was Laurel the only one to apologize?

Basically all of that was done (IMO) for outside reasons. They wanted another road block for Olicity (stated that out rightĺ and they wanted to set up the ILY twist in 223, so they had to play down anything Olicity related so S/O weren't just f*ck buddies they were in love over night, from 0-60 in 2 minutes.

They wanted to redeem Laurel, so S/O become the bad guys to gain Laurel sympathy.

They also wanted to resolve the drunk Laurel storyline that went nowhere so, bam Oliver yells at her and magically Laurel is on the path to AA.

None of that, IMO was organic, all of it was sacrificing characters to service plots, we want x character in this position by this episode, how do we make it happen?

I don't think Laurel was written as the victim in the S/O/L stuff at all. IMO, they wrote her like she was the bad guy. She was the one who was made to apologize to Sara, while Sara never admitted what she did to her sister was wrong or that she was sorry for it. Oliver got to tell her off for her behavior. It was the one time on the show where I was actually on Laurel's side, but the writing was heavy handed with the fact that I should have been on Sara's side. It was baffling to me that while Sara wanted her sister to forgive her, she never actually apologized and nobody on the show understood why Laurel had a right to feel the way she felt. They acted like because Sara was alive, Laurel should just get over it and that just didn't work for me. 

[Morrigan2575]

I don't think Laurel was written as the victim in the S/O/L stuff at all. IMO, they wrote her like she was the bad guy. She was the one who was made to apologize to Sara, while Sara never admitted what she did to her sister was wrong or that she was sorry for it. Oliver got to tell her off for her behavior. It was the one time on the show where I was actually on Laurel's side, but the writing was heavy handed with the fact that I should have been on Sara's side. It was baffling to me that while Sara wanted her sister to forgive her, she never actually apologized and nobody on the show understood why Laurel had a right to feel the way she felt. They acted like because Sara was alive, Laurel should just get over it and that just didn't work for me.

Actually that's exactly why I said she was written as the victim. As I said it wasn't about the character or the story it was outside the show. It was designed to make the audience feel sorry for Laurel. Oh poor Laurel O/S betrayed her and now she's apologizing?! It was, IMO a blatant attempt at audience manipulation. They couldn't get the character to work no matter what role they put her in, so they threw O/S under the bus to prop her up.

[foreverevolving]

Funny I always found that Oliver and Sara relationship in season 2 made perfect sense.

They were two individuals who seemed to always be on the verge of starting a relationship but it always got knocked down first by Laurel calling the cops, then when the Gambit went down. Now all of the sudden despite everything they have been through they are both alive and somewhat well (although emotionally fucked up as hell) they are in the same place and obviously whatever chemistry they had still exists. Maybe had Laurel been more accepting of Sara and Oliver didn't had to deal with the crap from his mom about Thea, it would have taken them longer to decide to try and see where it can go.

But what happened happened, and i think they were reaching out for some comfort, and it was just easier to do it with each other since they have a similar personality and the shared/similar experiences they've been through.

I had no problem with the relationship going from 0-60 and back to 0 just as fast. Their relationship wasn't about true love, it was about comfort and trying to gain back their Pre-island days and the "what maybe could have been if..."

If anything it was a bright flame who shone too bright and died down just as quickly. which i actually think is a wonderful parallel to Olicity who are a slow burn romance.

Regarding Laurel(oh look I'm back to calling her by name.. Let's see how long that will last)... I constantly want to feel for her but i can't because KC always fails to bring out the emotions needed for that to happen.

I wanted to feel bad for her during the hallways scene, but all i could see was the exploding glass and think to myself: you're dead sister is back form the dead after six years (since she only now gotten home and it is obvious from the strange woman dressed in black she got caught up in some dangerous shit, so she was hardly staying away of her own will)... Yes she died fucking your boyfriend, and yes she is currently fucking said same guy, but really?! She's your god damn sister, stop throwing exploding glasses at her and just be happy she's alive. Mind i remind you that you are no snowflake, you fucked said guy less then a day(?) after your relationship a with his -might as well be- pseudo brother/best friend ended.

So yea i was rooting for Oliver and Sara to get their freak on and get it out of their system, i cared little for how it will affect Laurel. I was more concerned how it will affect Felicity.

Edited January 11, 2015 by foreverevolving

[Guest]

I'm one of the people who didn't mind Sara and Oliver's hook-up, for the most part. I did feel like it came out of nowhere but at the same time I wasn't that surprised, in the context of the episode. They both needed comfort at that moment in time and they turned to each other. Was it the best idea? Of course not. Getting together again after they both supposedly felt so guilty for doing that to Laurel in the past just made no sense. But then those situations don't make sense sometimes. It's pretty human tbh.

 

Continuing the relationship, however, is actually where they lost me. A one night stand I could understand. But delving into a proper relationship just seemed so weird, especially when you take into account what Oliver told Felicity not weeks before - that he couldn't be with someone he could really care about. I could only reason that they were both using each other for comfort when everything around them was unsettled and that was ok for them. They both knew where they stood. I never once thought they were in love or anything. They cared about each other deeply but love? No way.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Guest

[Starfish35]

From the bitterness thread:

Maybe this has already been discussed at lenght, but could you expand on this?

Er.....wow. A one-off comment I made in another thread turned into a whole page of discussion while I was sleeping. I'm feeling slightly intimidated at the moment.

Here's the thing. I know my opinion on this is.....not popular in most Arrow circles, so I'm not really wanting to get into an intensive defense of my position here. But let me see if I can explain a bit.

I've never had a problem with Sara and Oliver getting back together. I know other people do. I'm not saying they're wrong - it's just how I feel about it. Oliver and Laurel were not together - hadn't been together in some time. As far as I'm concerned, neither of them owed Laurel anything. Now maybe that's due to the fact that I can't stand Laurel, but....it is what it is. And I always shipped Oliver/Sara a little bit from the time he took her hand and they walked out of the hospital together. At that point I didn't think they'd actually put them back together, but I kind of liked the idea.

The problem for me came in when they went straight from "the lunge" at the end of Heir to the Demon to acting like an established couple in Time of Death, and we completely skipped over any progression of how they got there. No morning after second thoughts, no discussion.....Sara and Oliver just suddenly were. And the fact that they treated it like that told me that the writers didn't take it seriously. It was just a temporary plot point. And that annoyed me.

As far as the dinner in Time of Death....I hate that episode anyway. I thought everyone was acting OOC - I've talked about Felicity in other threads. Sara....it does't make sense to me that she would want to take Oliver under the circumstances. And as much as I dislike Laurel, I actually didn't blame her for getting upset in that moment that she realized what was going on. Oliver and Sara were out of line. But then she turned her rage on her father and humiliating him and *poof* - sympathy all gone. The hallway scene..... *sigh* I'm conflicted about this. Because I would have happily have accepted him giving Laurel this particular smackdown in other circumstances. But...in this case, while part of me still cheered for him, it doesn't quite work because Oliver should not have been there. So... Fail on all counts writers.

As far as Sara never apologizing....for me I just have to chalk this up to another writer fail. I wish they had a scene where she does say I'm sorry to Laurel, and in my head, I'd like to believe that Sara did apologize offscreen at some point. The Sara I saw in the first of the season....so broken and guilty? I don't for a moment believe that she didn't regret that decision. But that's me. MMV.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Starfish35

[Password]

I don't think Laurel was written as the victim in the S/O/L stuff at all. IMO, they wrote her like she was the bad guy. She was the one who was made to apologize to Sara, while Sara never admitted what she did to her sister was wrong or that she was sorry for it. Oliver got to tell her off for her behavior. It was the one time on the show where I was actually on Laurel's side, but the writing was heavy handed with the fact that I should have been on Sara's side. It was baffling to me that while Sara wanted her sister to forgive her, she never actually apologized and nobody on the show understood why Laurel had a right to feel the way she felt. They acted like because Sara was alive, Laurel should just get over it and that just didn't work for me.

I also thought showing us that Laurel got Sara grounded and Sara saying there's more to Laurel, and Laurel doing other strange things Culminating in "once you let the darkness in..." Was the shows way of having Laurel go dark. I actually got excited because I finally felt I got a grip of where Laurel was going. But...well we see what has happened. Laurel is apparently still trying to save the world...by being somewhat nefarious.

I just wanted wish instead of going with the easy story of Oliver and Sara once again screwing Laurel over, they spent good time FIXING the crappy relationship between the sisters. I'd feel this rage fest a lot more if that happened.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm one of the people who didn't mind Sara and Oliver's hook-up, for the most part. I did feel like it came out of nowhere but at the same time I wasn't that surprised, in the context of the episode. They both needed comfort at that moment in time and they turned to each other. Was it the best idea? Of course not. Getting together again after they both supposedly felt so guilty for doing that to Laurel in the past just made no sense. But then those situations don't make sense sometimes. It's pretty human tbh.

 

Continuing the relationship, however, is actually where they lost me. A one night stand I could understand. But delving into a proper relationship just seemed so weird, especially when you take into account what Oliver told Felicity not weeks before - that he couldn't be with someone he could really care about. I could only reason that they were both using each other for comfort when everything around them was unsettled and that was ok for them. They both knew where they stood. I never once thought they were in love or anything. They cared about each other deeply but love? No way.

 

There have been several times this season where people referred to Sara as a woman Oliver loved, and I am MOSTLY fine with that because as I have noted before Oliver definitely cared for Sara very much and no one can deny their bond after their time on the island. But part of me is like, "Really?" The way people refer to it, you'd think it was this big, great romantic love when I've always seen it as mostly comfort sex with a huge dollop of affection. I can handwave it and say the show wants to emphasize the connection between Sara and Oliver, to elevate the emotional stakes. But, just like last year, when Oliver was becoming all emotional and pushing Sara away, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for the characters and how I see their relationship.

[Luckylyn]

I've never had a problem with Sara and Oliver getting back together. I know other people do. I'm not saying they're wrong - it's just how I feel about it. Oliver and Laurel were not together - hadn't been together in some time. As far as I'm concerned, neither of them owed Laurel anything. Now maybe that's due to the fact that I can't stand Laurel, but....it is what it is. And I always shipped Oliver/Sara a little bit from the time he took her hand and they walked out of the hospital together. At that point I didn't think they'd actually put them back together, but I kind of liked the idea.

The problem for me came in when they went straight from "the lunge" at the end of Heir to the Demon to acting like an established couple in Time of Death, and we completely skipped over any progression of how they got there. No morning after second thoughts, no discussion.....Sara and Oliver just suddenly were. And the fact that they treated it like that told me that the writers didn't take it seriously. It was just a temporary plot point. And that annoyed me.

I ship Oliver/Felicity but the idea of Oliver and Sara getting together didn't bother me.   It's the execution of that storyline that was horrible.   It was like a plot point with no thought to the characters development allowing their choices to feel organic.  The obvious fact that Laurel would feel hurt never seeming to occur to Oliver and Sara and Oliver going to that dinner with Sara were major missteps.  After everything that happened, it didn't make sense to me that Sara and Oliver would be that thoughtless.

 

Sara and Oliver could have been interesting to explore with their histories, how they have evolved, and the bond their traumas forged between them, but the writers didn't seem to care enough about the pairing to truly explore it.  I feel like the pairing was a means to an end to create a breaking point for Laurel and to put a pause on Olicity so the "I love you" in the finale would be a surprise.  It wasn't really about Oliver and Sara and what they mean to each other which was a major failing of the writing.

[Guest]

There have been several times this season where people referred to Sara as a woman Oliver loved, and I am MOSTLY fine with that because as I have noted before Oliver definitely cared for Sara very much and no one can deny their bond after their time on the island. But part of me is like, "Really?" The way people refer to it, you'd think it was this big, great romantic love when I've always seen it as mostly comfort sex with a huge dollop of affection. I can handwave it and say the show wants to emphasize the connection between Sara and Oliver, to elevate the emotional stakes. But, just like last year, when Oliver was becoming all emotional and pushing Sara away, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for the characters and how I see their relationship.

 

I have no problem with them saying Sara was a woman Oliver loved because I do think he loved her. He just wasn't in love with her. They had endured similar experiences on and off the island during their missing years - torture and emotional trauma to name a few - and I think this gave them a really strong bond. Plus their history created a deep affection for each other. I just never saw their love as romantic.

[Starfish35]

Sara and Oliver could have been interesting to explore with their histories, how they have evolved, and the bond their traumas forged between them, but the writers didn't seem to care enough about the pairing to truly explore it.  I feel like the pairing was a means to an end to create a breaking point for Laurel and to put a pause on Olicity so the "I love you" in the finale would be a surprise.  It wasn't really about Oliver and Sara and what they mean to each other which was a major failing of the writing.

Exactly.

[looptab]

Er.....wow. A one-off comment I made in another thread turned into a whole page of discussion while I was sleeping. I'm feeling slightly intimidated at the moment.

Here's the thing. I know my opinion on this is.....not popular in most Arrow circles, so I'm not really wanting to get into an intensive defense of my position here. But let me see if I can explain a bit.

 

No, please don't feel intimidated :) I didn't mean to question your position, nor was I demanding for you to defend it, it was just honest curiosity on your point of view, to get a better understanding :) I do understand what you mean now, and I think you're right, their relationship could definitely have been explored more. But apparently rushing through storylines is the writers' thing :/

 

 By the way, I'm pretty sure that when this same discussion happened before, I had a completely different opinion about it, so really, reading other thoughts on it gave me more things to consider and to make up my mind about it, because I actually think given the circumstances surrounding them (the cheating, the siblings, the addiction) my view on it changes according to my mood :) I surely never thought I'd turn in some kind of Laurel's apologist lol but I think the Time of Death dinner is something we all agree upon :) 

As I said, I didn't hate it, I didn't want to throw things at my screen as it would happen if God forbid they should do a Lauriver 2.0, I guess I just couldn't care much for it for the way it was handled, which, I think we can agree, was very poorly. Had they developed it more carefully, it surely would have given wonderful opportunities for storytelling.

Anyway it did stem a great discussion from this :) 

[Happy Harpy]

Er.....wow. A one-off comment I made in another thread turned into a whole page of discussion while I was sleeping. I'm feeling slightly intimidated at the moment.

Anything that spurs a healthy and respectful debate shouldn't be intimidating, on the opposite it's a very good thing! Discussing is what we're here for, isn't it? And the topic is really interesting.

As for ToD, it might bear repeating that it's for me a Pod People episode, and I do think -if my non-native english didn't make it clear enough-  that imo, Sara not apologizing was OOC. So yes, I agree with you about the writers' fail.

I have to be honest and say that the sister swapping made that Sara never was a viable option for Oliver in my eyes. But the way the relationship was written, or not written actually (I remember posting on TWOP something about it) made it a set back. For me, the writing was the main problem.

I never denied, nor will I ever deny that Oliver and Sara had a link. But I found it more interesting when it wasn't a romantic one. Less because of Oliver, although I love him: He had love interests who considered him as "The One" -including Sara- before. I didn't want O/S, I realize now, because of Sara, because she was never the number one with him imo, and I wanted her to have someone who would put her first. Someone who would see her as her one and only. Oliver wasn't that person, although he deeply cared for her.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Carrie Ann]

I liked Oliver and Sara too--as a dedicated Olicity person, I still found them intriguing as a pairing. And I remember thinking, wow, if this was Dinah/Laurel--if CL had played that character, if she had gone down on that ship, been taken by the LOA, had a relationship with Nyssa, and came back to town with all that baggage, with a different moral position to Oliver's...that would be a much more compelling GA/BC pairing to me. One that would be much harder to simply write off in the face of Olicity. But anyway.

 

I found their actual relationship, as written, to be a little rushed and thus lacking in some ways, but CL and SA worked their tails off to sell it. And I felt/feel a deep bond between them. Real understanding of each other and what they went through and how it changed them. I wish we could have seen more of their friendship.

[Luckylyn]

I also think Nyssa/Sara was incredibly underwritten, but the actresses had chemistry and were able to fill the gaps in the script.  Since Nyssa represents a life Sara was willing to kill herself to get away from, I shouldn't have been rooting for them, but the actresses made me want to see more of the relationship.   Such squandered opportunities for Sara and all her relationships.

 

On a lighter note, I want Donna to return and meet Quentin.

[Chiny11]

Question for the you all (believe me, I hate having to pose this question but I am curious to know what you guys think)

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

[Ariah]

Question for the you all (believe me, I hate having to pose this question but I am curious to know what you guys think)

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

GOD, NO!

 

It's one of my primal fears. The thing is, I hope TPTB are not that stupid, but then again... Well.

If it so happens that we'll be treated to Laurivel 2.0, i'm pretty sure the producing cost of Arrow will rise substantially, because of all the extra takes they would have to make to get a "romantic" scene between Laurel and Oliver right. SA and KC have so little chemistry together it hurts me physically.

[apinknightmare]

Question for the you all (believe me, I hate having to pose this question but I am curious to know what you guys think)

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

 

My logical/optimistic side says no way. They really have done pretty much everything to blow up that relationship and any future potential it ever could've had, and Oliver and Laurel are barely even friends at this point. And, god, they're tying Oliver's humanity to Felicity. Oliver may very well have other romantic relationships, but I really don't think any of them will be with Laurel. 

 

My pessimistic side says the writers/showrunners would probably do anything, no matter how many times FAILURE is written over it in big, red letters. So...maybe.

[dtissagirl]

Question for the you all (believe me, I hate having to pose this question but I am curious to know what you guys think)

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

 

Short answer: no.

 

Long answer: it took them 46 episodes to undo Laurel/Oliver 1.0, going back there would just void the incredible hard work it was to pretend the pilot never ever ever happened the way they first conceived it.

Edited January 11, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Chiny11]

I also hope they do not go there. However I don't trust tptb. They have made some questionable choices (storywise) in the past.

[Password]

Question for the you all (believe me, I hate having to pose this question but I am curious to know what you guys think)

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

Personally? I'm convinced Olicity is endgame. They cannot do anymore besides Oliver having a picture with him whilst he's dead to convince me that they are.

Realistically, these producers are crazy. They would ruin a good thing just for Lauriver.

But really, things point to Lauriver friendship and Olicity endgame.

[Carrie Ann]

I truly don't think there's a chance it would happen unless EBR left the show of her own volition. The show would never get rid of her, but if she wanted to leave for some reason, they'd have to fill in that empty love story space, I guess. Otherwise, no. They've stopped giving any romantic beats to Laurel and Oliver, and they know no one feels chemistry there or believes in that relationship (except KC apparently). I worry they will screw Olicity up in about a million other ways, but I haven't been concerned about Lauriver since SDCC.

[Happy Harpy]

Question for the you all (believe me, I hate having to pose this question but I am curious to know what you guys think)

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

Imo? In the blink of an eye if they could. For me, they're GA/BC fanboys, they decided that Laurel is BC, so they'll never give up. Hey, I probably would react the same way for my childhood OTPs, I think I'd irrationally want them together.

They can't because the Oliver/Felicity is too big for now, imo. Moreover Laurel/Oliver, as they settled it, is I think putting off even some Laurel fans -and honestly, who can blame them? 

But things/plot tumors like Ray tell me they still try to "get rid" of Felicity while not angering her numerous fans (Good luck for your 0,2 in the ratings if you mess up with her, YMMV).

I will be certain they won't try it again the moment Laurel is off the show. Which is partly why I want her off the show because nothing, for me, makes Laurel more unbearable than Laurel/Oliver (and reciprocally).

Edited January 11, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Question for the you all (believe me, I hate having to pose this question but I am curious to know what you guys think)

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

Hell yes.

Having just received renewal for season 4 they are kids in a candy store.they don't have to earn viewers. They can play in the sludge they write without consequence.

Leaving EBR off the TCA panel is a neon sign to me. They are backpedaling but I am sure it was intentional. Laurel and BC are their girl. Felicity and Sara and the fans be damned.

[Chiny11]

But things/plot tumors like Ray tell me they still try to "get rid" of Felicity while not angering her numerous fans (Good luck for you 0,2 in the ratings if you mess up with her, YMMV).

THIS

That has always been my fear. I think when BR was cast as Atom, tptb thought they could use him as a serious love interest for Felicity, which if it succeeds could put an end to Olicity and they can have their GA/BC together again.

Unfortunately for them the writing for Ray Palmer has been atrocious and BR acting choices has been lacking. The pairing has angered Felicity fans. And I don't think that was the outcome the show runners were hoping for.

I mean it could have worked if they had cast an actor whose interpretation of the role appealed to the viewers AND if the writing was good (notice I didn't say great. They should shoot for "good" at least. It would make a whole lot of difference)

Hell yes.

Having just received renewal for season 4 they are kids in a candy store.they don't have to earn viewers. They can play in the sludge they write without consequence.

Leaving EBR off the TCA panel is a neon sign to me. They are backpedaling but I am sure it was intentional. Laurel and BC are their girl. Felicity and Sara and the fans be damned.

Love your sarcasm. But you maybe onto something.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Chiny11

[tv echo]

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

Responding in the Hopes and Fears thread.  

[jay741982]

EBR and SA's Chemistry is nothing short of Electric and Felicity is VERY Popular with good reason. These writers are true assholes and dumbasses if they tried Laurilver 2.0. They are Toxic together and have Anti-Chemistry. I seriously think a lot of people would stop watching if Felicity left or was killed off so a Toxic relationship that makes no sense could be born again

[Happy Harpy]

@jay741982 I agree with you. But many of us here, me first, thought the writers would be stupid to kill Sara off for Laurel, and yet they did. That's why I can't be confident about any relationship on the show -or anything, actually- that isn't born from the comic books.

Unfortunately, I believe now that if the writers have their way, they'll get rid of Oliver/Felicity by "promoting" her with Ray, in order to re-establish Laurel/Oliver, and get rid of Diggle/Oliver by "promoting" him to some Suicide Squad assignment (if they can't do a spinoff, it will be an excuse to his absence) in order to place Roy/Oliver front and center. 

[foreverevolving]

Question for the you all (believe me, I hate having to pose this question but I am curious to know what you guys think)

Do you think tptb would do a Lauriver 2.0?

In a Pre HIMYM finale, and the obscene Sara was murdered, TV-world i would have said, of course not!

But in this post apocalyptic tv world.... Anything is possible, even if it breaks all common sense.

Edited January 11, 2015 by foreverevolving

[BkWurm1]

so how come she never apologized, or never took responsibility, for sleeping with her sister's boyfriend? It didn't fit with what I had seen of her, and since she was imo quite a well-defined character, I can only think that she wasn't allowed to, per OOC writing.

 

 

She did try to apologize though.  She said she was sorry right before Laurel threw the wine glass.  She didn’t get to specifics, but she tried and Laurel shut her down.  I don’t think Sara thought her relationship with Laurel was salvagable which is why I didn’t find it OOC or odd when the lunge happened.  The lunge was about being home and celebrating that she didn’t have to run anymore.  Oliver was a link to the past, her time away and the present; their connection was intense and deep but not founded on true romance and it was about comfort and taking pleasure where you can find it.

Something I forgot to mention earlier, another WTF moment for me in the Sara/Oliver relationship was when he suggested they should look for an apartment. Really??? I mean, really???

 

It was just a practicality to him.  They both needed a real place to crash and they were sleeping together, why not?  I found it so telling that he hemmed and hawed when Sara rephrased his suggestion that they get an apartment an point blank asked if he was suggesting they move in together.  That’s the moment I think that Sara decided to end it.  They meant a lot to each other but it was never going to go beyond comfort, familiarity, and convienence.   It’s no coincidence this is the episode she lets him go.

Edited January 12, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

ITA with BkWurm1 about Oliver suggesting an apartment as a practicality and Sara seeing his reaction as the end of her hopes for a relationship with him.  (As a side question, it was really sweet seeing him kiss her in bed in the morning.  I wonder if we'll ever get a scene with Felicity like that.)

 

I think Sara took a lot of responsibility for sleeping with her sister's boyfriend, in present day she always felt that she deserved to be punish and didn't deserve any good things.  I think she would have tried to make amends with Laurel but Laurel shut her out.

 

I don't think anything happens in a vacuum though, and Sara didn't make the decision to go on the boat with Oliver until Laurel threw a hissy fit at her when she suggested that Oliver wasn't ready for the plans and timeline Laurel had made for them (living together, engagement, marriage).

[BkWurm1]

I don't think anything happens in a vacuum though, and Sara didn't make the decision to go on the boat with Oliver until Laurel threw a hissy fit at her when she suggested that Oliver wasn't ready for the plans and timeline Laurel had made for them (living together, engagement, marriage).

 

I think we saw Sara second guessing going with Oliver but they were already texting and I think it implied that they had already made plans about the boat, but she was trying to back out of them until Laurel made it clear she wanted to keep her head buried in the sand.  Maybe in a roundabout way Sara was letting herself do what she was going to do as a way of saving Laurel from herself (in addition to all the other reasons) 

[Starfish35]

I think they'd made plans, but Sara did love her sister and after coming home and spending time with her family she was having second thoughts. But then when Laurel got mad at her she just decided "what the hell".

From what Dinah said, Sara was in love with Oliver. I just don't think she had the same illusions about him that Laurel did. And I think that also played into their breakup in season two. I think Sara still loved him, but when he reacted the way he did to her question about moving in together, she realized he was never going to be in love with her the way she wanted.

[BkWurm1]

I think they'd made plans, but Sara did love her sister and after coming home and spending time with her family she was having second thoughts. But then when Laurel got mad at her she just decided "what the hell".

From what Dinah said, Sara was in love with Oliver. I just don't think she had the same illusions about him that Laurel did. And I think that also played into their breakup in season two. I think Sara still loved him, but when he reacted the way he did to her question about moving in together, she realized he was never going to be in love with her the way she wanted.

Exactly!  I swear you live in my head sometimes.

 

Of course though, I don't think she fell back into a relationship with Oliver due to any pining for him.  I agree she had been in love with him in the past and I think while they were together in the present, she was willing to consider a future where they were in love with each other but I'm not sure if she'd let herself fall fully back in love with him. She was on the slide into it, but years of having to have walls kept her from completely being vulnerable...but she clearly was letting herself hope a little when he brought up the apartment and then just as quickly, she saw it was not meant to be. 

[Starfish35]

Hahaha yeah exactly. :)

[statsgirl]

I think that Nyssa was Sara's True Love (she was Nyssa's according to Katrina Law) but Sara had been kind of in love with Oliver since she met at the party, before Laurel had her grounded and got together with Oliver herself.

 

It's too bad they didn't explore the Sara/Oliver relationship properly in 2B rather than just use it to stall Olicity.

[Sakura12]

The dinner scene in ToD was never about Sara and Oliver's relationship or the Lance family. It's only purpose was to give Laurel/KC her big scene. Which for any big Laurel scene everyone acts stupid to give her a purpose for being on the show. I also think that Sara had to bring Oliver because that would be the only time Laurel would see them together since she barely ever interacted with the rest of the characters including Sara.

 

Yes, Sara didn't apologize but Laurel also never once asked Sara about what she went through. Sara was home for almost a year before Laurel saw that her body was covered in enough scars that a Doctor thought Sara was injured in war. That showed me that Laurel didn't care enough to ask her sister a single question about what happened to her. Laurel saw that Oliver was messed up and covered in scars, did she think Sara who was on the same boat as Oliver somehow was on an island vacation? Laurel was as always thinking only about herself. 

 

That's why her "honoring" Sara feels so false. She didn't know Sara, so she has no clue about the woman she's supposedly honoring. It just looks like she wants the glory of being a hero. 

 

As for Oliver and Sara, I agree it wasn't smart, but I understood it. It isn't always happiness that brings people together, sometimes it's a shared pain. That's what Sara and Oliver had. They were the only other person that understood what the other had gone through. They found comfort in that. They were fellow survivors bond by tragedy. Ultimately, I think they both knew that it would never work out between them. Sara was the one that figured out that first because Oliver's always been a little slow in that department. 

[looptab]

You see, I had a completely different take on the apartment thing. To me it looked like he was suggesting they moved in together and Sara was all "What the hell are you talking about?" lol  I guess I'll have to rewatch that episode :)

As for the Lauriver 2.0. I don't see it happening this season, but I think it's a possibility in the future. Hope they won't take that route, though!

[jay741982]

I don't know why they would want to put Oliver and laurel back together. other than show versions of them being toxic for each other he cheated on her repeatedly in original comics plus don't they not know each other in the new comics?

[apinknightmare]

You see, I had a completely different take on the apartment thing. To me it looked like he was suggesting they moved in together and Sara was all "What the hell are you talking about?" lol  I guess I'll have to rewatch that episode :)

As for the Lauriver 2.0. I don't see it happening this season, but I think it's a possibility in the future. Hope they won't take that route, though!

 

I think Oliver was suggesting they get a place because they both needed somewhere to stay and they were sleeping together, so why not? And Sara knew that he was blissfully ignorant of the connotations of something like that. I think it was less "What are you talking about?" and more "Do you realize what you're asking?" Because I really don't think he did. 

[dtissagirl]

I think Oliver was suggesting they get a place because they both needed somewhere to stay and they were sleeping together, so why not? And Sara knew that he was blissfully ignorant of the connotations of something like that. I think it was less "What are you talking about?" and more "Do you realize what you're asking?" Because I really don't think he did.

This was my take as well.

This scene is actually my favorite *Sara* moment in the whole Sara/Oliver relationship, because it's when she realizes Oliver has never envisioned a real future for them together, and she takes the reigns of the situation and basically lets him down easy with the "you need ~light in your life HER NAME IS FELICITY" speech.

I don't even think Sara wanted a future with Oliver, but the entire relationship was written by throwing her under the bus to propel plotty plots and gotchas!, so I really appreciated that Sara at least had the driving wheel in getting out of it.

[tv echo]

From the Jan. 11th Nerdist interview with MG (posted in the News & Media thread)...

N: He brings a new dynamic to the show in his scenes with Emily Bett Rickards’ Felcity, a kind of screwball comedy vibe.

MG: He does. When we met with Brandon, the whole point of Ray Palmer for us — not the whole point but a big piece of Ray Palmer — was… Felicity’s voice is of a different show and we always say that Emily’s playing tennis against herself. [Laughs.] So we wanted to create a character that could vibrate at her frequency.”

I must be watching a different show.  I don't get that vibe from the Ray and Felicity relationship at all.  I don't get screwball comedy.  I get uncomfortable boundary-crossing, little chemistry vibe.  He's her boss, and this isn't the 1940's any more.

Edited January 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Guest]

From the Jan. 11th Nerdist interview with MG (posted in the News & Media thread)...

I must be watching a different show.  I don't get that vibe from the Ray and Felicity relationship at all.  I don't get screwball comedy.  I get uncomfortable boundary-crossing, zero chemistry vibe.

 

Same. I was expecting that but I've not seen that vibe at all. In fact, when the two of them are together both talking too quickly it's just too much. It's not cute or quirky. It's annoying. And I'm still waiting on that chemistry too.