Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Password]

@SonofaBiscuit You raise an interesting point actually. Oliver's little slip seemed tentative, especially after he realised he went too far. It's like he was testing the waters (for what only he knows). If the writers back track again then they're just dumb. At the end of the day, Oliver seems to be making progress by every episode and as much as he realised he shouldn't have said what he did, I don't see him reverting to cold shoulder Oliver again. He doesn't need to because he's the one dangling maybes. Do I think he'll stop slipping up? Nope. Cats out of the bag since he decided he doesn't want to die. It's probably why I thought ep 3 was so very strange.

But when they DO touch again? After months of not touching, after having kissed and having had this relationship of casual, too long touching building up for five months before that kiss? Yeah, that's going to be explosive. Like, burning down the building with heat. And when that happens, I'd like to think that these writers know there is no going back. He can't pull back from her again.

 

Please don't dangle maybes like that. It hurts.

[Trini]

 

In s1, Diggle was the one teaching Felicity how to fight. Well done, Diggle!

 

I was wondering who taught Felicity that move! I thought it could be Oliver, Diggle, or Sara.

[ostentatious]

While I don't think Oliver was being manipulative at all with that line, I do think he was seeking affirmation from her. He can't touch her anymore. He really wanted her to make eye contact with him and reassure him that she's still in this thing with him.

 

She wouldn't give him that.

 

I think he realized that this is exactly what she accused him of doing to her, but I also think a bit of panic is beginning to arise in him. She didn't give him the response he wanted. I doubt seriously if he's going to take the risk of going cold on her again.

[Danny Franks]

@SonofaBiscuit You raise an interesting point actually. Oliver's little slip seemed tentative, especially after he realised he went too far. It's like he was testing the waters (for what only he knows). If the writers back track again then they're just dumb. At the end of the day, Oliver seems to be making progress by every episode and as much as he realised he shouldn't have said what he did, I don't see him reverting to cold shoulder Oliver again. He doesn't need to because he's the one dangling maybes. Do I think he'll stop slipping up? Nope. Cats out of the bag since he decided he doesn't want to die. It's probably why I thought ep 3 was so very strange.

 

 

Yet more Castle parallels, it seems. I made a criticism about that show several years ago now, that things seemed to happen, and characters seemed to have reactions and revelations that were there purely for the effect they had on the audience. That something like a stunned moment of realisation would be shown, and then the next week everything would be back to normal. It was the writers' way of throwing the 'shippers a bone while never having to actually offer up anything real.

 

Sounds like the Arrow writers might have cottoned on to this amazing, fresh, creative technique. They can always backtrack unless they've actually had the characters spell things out and act on what they've said. And even then, they can backtrack with a good old, 'I can't be with you because reasons' cop out. Oliver can look like he is going to change his mind as much as they want, as long as he doesn't actually say he's changed it.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Yet more Castle parallels, it seems. I made a criticism about that show several years ago now, that things seemed to happen, and characters seemed to have reactions and revelations that were there purely for the effect they had on the audience. That something like a stunned moment of realisation would be shown, and then the next week everything would be back to normal. It was the writers' way of throwing the 'shippers a bone while never having to actually offer up anything real.

 

Sounds like the Arrow writers might have cottoned on to this amazing, fresh, creative technique. They can always backtrack unless they've actually had the characters spell things out and act on what they've said. And even then, they can backtrack with a good old, 'I can't be with you because reasons' cop out. Oliver can look like he is going to change his mind as much as they want, as long as he doesn't actually say he's changed it.

 

I can't lie. I'm seeing the slow wooing of viewers to the Ray and Felicity side. So they can throw Olicity fans a few bones while they wait and see what plays out as Ray and Felicity "date." 

 

I don't think they'll commit to Olicity or Raylicity anytime soon. They are going to drag it out as long as they can. Assuming they don't strop dropping viewers like flies, I imagine Olicity moments will be few and far between. Which I think will create the problem of the fans actually being split. Should Ray become a more viable love interest, the fracture of TA will get worse. Unless Oliver gets a LI. Then you have a greater problem. 

 

I don't see how they write themselves out of it. 

[NumberCruncher]

While I don't think Oliver was being manipulative at all with that line, I do think he was seeking affirmation from her. He can't touch her anymore. He really wanted her to make eye contact with him and reassure him that she's still in this thing with him.

 

She wouldn't give him that.

 

I think he realized that this is exactly what she accused him of doing to her, but I also think a bit of panic is beginning to arise in him. She didn't give him the response he wanted. I doubt seriously if he's going to take the risk of going cold on her again.

I think this is spot on. Speaking from personal experience, the relationships that have hurt the most were the ones where the guy would throw just enough out there to keep me dangling but could never fully commit, so I love that Felicity realized early on that was what was happening with Oliver and backed away. She gets even bigger kudos for holding to it when Oliver makes comments like this. And I appreciate it even more that she hasn't done it in a mean or petty way and isn't afraid to still crack silly index finger jokes at him or let him know when his family advice is helpful. Likewise, Oliver isn't acting like a complete sad panda (okay, maybe he is a little, but their working relationship is still relatively functional and they haven't been biting at each other). Yay for being adults!

I agree that Oliver had the look of someone who messed up when called back to what he told Felicity in the hospital, but at this point I honestly don't know what he'll do with it. Even if he finally snaps out of his I-can't-have-a-normal-life-and-still-save-the-city mindset, Felicity is going to have to be the one to let herself trust him again. That's going to be much harder with Creepy McStalkerson in the mix.

[statsgirl]

I can't lie. I'm seeing the slow wooing of viewers to the Ray and Felicity side. So they can throw Olicity fans a few bones while they wait and see what plays out as Ray and Felicity "date." 

While I like Ray because he's fun and has no boundaries, I'm  not getting anything solid yet in terms of making him a romantic alternative to Oliver, or even to Barry.  I think if he was the only choice for Felicity, and they were both supporting players and it didn't matter too much to make it a good relationship, then yes. But right now, I can't see Felicity choosing him over Oliver even if Oliver keeps her dangling till the end of the season.

[calliope1975]

I think Oliver's so out of his depth because he's never been in this position before. I can't see pre-island Oliver ever having been this hung up on a girl and being unable to act on it. If anyone's pining here, it's Oliver, and since he refuses to move forward but can't put his emotions back in the bottle. It was painful to watch him open up again to Felicity and tell her he loves her in a roundabout way only to have her shut him down, but I'm glad she did, and I hope she continues to do so. There are consequences to our actions and our words, and sadly (but please no oh writer gods,) he might not get a chance to fix this once he wises up. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I agree that Oliver had the look of someone who messed up when called back to what he told Felicity in the hospital, but at this point I honestly don't know what he'll do with it. Even if he finally snaps out of his I-can't-have-a-normal-life-and-still-save-the-city mindset, Felicity is going to have to be the one to let herself trust him again. That's going to be much harder with Creepy McStalkerson in the mix.

 

And that's what Emily Bett Rickards said in a recent interview. Here's the quote: "... is she going to be vulnerable the next time it comes around? Is she going to want to do that?" the actress asked. "I'm not sure how she'll react when he's ready or she's ready again. It didn't really create a scar necessarily, but it did create a little bit of a bruise."

 

This is not going to be as easy as Oliver realizing this is what he wants. Felicity is going to be dealing with her own issues as well. I just pray the writers are able to play out the nuances well.

[DrSpaceman10]

On the one hand, I hope that the writers give Felicity the chance to say "No, I don't want to try this again" to Oliver, but on the other hand I don't want it to feel like the writers are just going to keep coming up with "reasons" to delay a potential Oliver/Felicity relationship so as to avoid the "Moonlighting Curse". In my opinion, one season of "We love each other but we can't be together because reasons" is more than enough.

[blixie]

Yeah I've stated multiple times whatever is gonna happen with Olicity I pretty much need to be settled *before* the last third of this season, anything else will try my patience. I feel like Oliver is already progressing pretty nicely on the realization front regarding just what it is he wants (Felicity and Family and Duty) and what he doesn't want (dying alone, lies). If they wait till the last three episodes while all the seasonal arc shit is going down, I will..I will sigh very loudly to myself!

 

Whatever romantic ish is between Ray and Felicity I want to be done, did and over by ep 16, and for it to be a definitive choice to leave him and choose Oliver, who has been fighting for her like hell. I'm pretty resigned to it not being very good because the writers of this show...are not very good, and have turned this season into a hot mess of hash. :sighing very loudly to myself::

[wingster55]

And maybe most importantly, we've had a lot of really, really quality Diggle/Oliver moments this season,

 

Uh...we have? We've had a few scenes here and there about other people...wouldn't call that bonding. 

[apinknightmare]

Uh...we have? We've had a few scenes here and there about other people...wouldn't call that bonding.

Oliver and Diggle in the foundry talking about happiness and how Oliver should attempt to have a life, Oliver and Diggle in the hospital talking about family and how it changes you, Oliver and Diggle in the foundry after Diggle rejoined the team and told him he wasn't alone, Oliver telling Diggle he didn't want to die in the foundry, several moments in Corto Maltese. They've had plenty of moments and time together, and since Diggle now has a life outside of the foundry and Oliver's got feelings for Felicity (that Diggle is well aware of and encourages), it makes sense that he'd give them time alone and/or not be around as much (because of Lyla and Sara). Oliver and Diggle's bonding time hasn't suffered from any of that (yet).

Edited November 7, 2014 by apinknightmare

[MostlyC]

Just a reminder, if it hasn't already happened or if you want it to happen, then in belongs in a speculation and/or spoiler thread.

 

So if you think Oliver is going to bust up Felicity and Ray's wedding a la "the graduate," then it doesn't belong here....unless it (maybe, because it's Oliver) happens.

[Luckylyn]

There's a really interesting reversal of stereotypes with Oliver and Felicity.  Normally, the woman would be pushing for the emotional bond and the man would admit attraction but not necessarily love.   Felicity has been open about lusting for Oliver but has been more guarded about acknowledging an emotional attachment.   Oliver's the one who said "I love you" in Season 2 and he's the one who implied he loved her in season 3.   All the moves to take things to an emotional level come from him.  Felicity responds to Oliver but hasn't worn her heart on her sleeve like he has.   Oliver is also sending tons of mix signals by making it clear he loves her while simultatenously making it clear he won't be with her.   Considering Felicity's issues with her father and Cooper it makes sense that she would guard her heart espeically when Oliver has shown that he won't follow through. 

 

I think Oliver's going to have to earn an "I love you" from Felicity by demonstrating he's fully commited and isn't going to declare love one day and walk away the next.   At this point, she trusts him with her life but not her heart and I can't blame her.  I really think Oliver's going to have to really fight for her or lose her forever because she isn't necessarily going to be as willing to jump into a relationship like she was in 3x01 when Oliver finally is ready to be with her for keeps.  Her heart's been wounded in the past and Oliver has shown that he'll bail at a romance when things get tough.  I love that she doesn't try to convince Oliver or change him.  She repects how he feels about not being in a realtionship even though she thinks he's wrong and how his "I want yout but I won't be with you" b.s. has hurt her.  She's just going to live her life not waiting for him and his maybes.  

[Genki]

There's a really interesting reversal of stereotypes with Oliver and Felicity.  Normally, the woman would be pushing for the emotional bond and the man would admit attraction but not necessarily love.   Felicity has been open about lusting for Oliver but has been more guarded about acknowledging an emotional attachment.   Oliver's the one who said "I love you" in Season 2 and he's the one who implied he loved her in season 3.   All the moves to take things to an emotional level come from him.  Felicity responds to Oliver but hasn't worn her heart on her sleeve like he has.   Oliver is also sending tons of mix signals by making it clear he loves her while simultatenously making it clear he won't be with her.   Considering Felicity's issues with her father and Cooper it makes sense that she would guard her heart espeically when Oliver has shown that he won't follow through.

 

I think Oliver's going to have to earn an "I love you" from Felicity by demonstrating he's fully commited and isn't going to declare love one day and walk away the next.   At this point, she trusts him with her life but not her heart and I can't blame her.  I really think Oliver's going to have to really fight for her or lose her forever because she isn't necessarily going to be as willing to jump into a relationship like she was in 3x01 when Oliver finally is ready to be with her for keeps.  Her heart's been wounded in the past and Oliver has shown that he'll bail at a romance when things get tough.  I love that she doesn't try to convince Oliver or change him.  She repects how he feels about not being in a realtionship even though she thinks he's wrong and how his "I want yout but I won't be with you" b.s. has hurt her.  She's just going to live her life not waiting for him and his maybes.  

 

I think you are right, for Felicity, between her Dad and Cooper, two major people in Felicity's life choose to leave her and Oliver is essentially doing the same.

 

So it put a question, for me, on any future relationship she might have with Ray. 

 

If it progresses in the next 2 episodes, which it seems it will, it seems fast (considering all of the above) unless, for Felicity, it doesn't mean that much or the stakes aren't that high. She isn't risking her heart she can go forward with Ray because the emotional fallout she suffered with her father and Cooper (and to an extent Oliver) won't be there, if the relationship ends.

 

Or she is faking it 'til she makes it. Like with Cooper's "suicide" in College she decided to change her "identity" and hideout as a lowly "IT Girl". Have a normal life, (Which kind of reminds me of Oliver's compartmentalising, but that is a discussion for a different thread).

 

I think this is one of the reasons Ray and Felicity don't work for me.

 

The other is the lack of Spark-age, with all the EPs Hiatus discussions on old hollywood (Cary Grant) vibe between Ray and Felicity, I start envisioning "Bringing up Baby", "His Girl Friday,"The Philadelphia story", etc and the problem, for me, is that in these situation there is always a chaotic influence bringing havoc to, (and lighten up) the "straight-man"life. Ray and Felicity are too similar character types of it to work for me, they are both the chaotic influence so i'm not getting cute moments, and the emotional ones don't land because they have no history and he has not idea about what is really going on with her. 

 

Worse, for Ray, we got to see this dynamic played out magnificently in 3.05, except Donna was the Chaos to Felicity's straight man. The Team arrow scene in the Foundry was gold. Throughout the episode the emotional beats were so right with an underlying love I knew was there because I immediately bought into the Mother/Daughter dynamic.

 

We have also seen it in smaller doses with Felicity and Oliver. The verbal gaffs and innuendo are all little pieces of chaos which break into Oliver's Arrow persona and it was officially move out of sub-text in 3.01 with the "threats & targets/Person" revelation.

 

Having said that their similarities and current interactions could play into a nice friendship, but I already love Diggle/Felicity (want and need more) and I'm accepting of Roy/Felicity and I liked Barry (and the Flash mob) as Felicity's intellectual connections. Frankly I want to see Felicity/Caitlin friendship really badly. This really leaves no time for me to want Ray/Felicity on screen, he needs to move forward into the main storyline, because right now he is firmly Oliver's Rival and nothing so far has me rooting for him. 

 

 

[Chaser]

EBR described Felicity looking for transparency and that is something I think Ray offers her. With Ray, what you see seems to be what you get. I can see that being really appealing to Felicity right now. Felicity also probably understands that absent minded genius part of Ray. Its comfortable and easy and nonthreatening. The perfect rebound. They have an easy rapport that I find pleasant. But there is no depth to the relationship because they are on an even playing field; There is no challenge to their interactions. If/when Ray steps into the hero mode, that dynamic wouldn't get any more interesting; It would just transfer from QC to the Cave. 

[statsgirl]

I think you are right, for Felicity, between her Dad and Cooper, two major people in Felicity's life choose to leave her and Oliver is essentially doing the same.

 

So it put a question, for me, on any future relationship she might have with Ray. 

 

If it progresses in the next 2 episodes, which it seems it will, it seems fast (considering all of the above) unless, for Felicity, it doesn't mean that much or the stakes aren't that high. She isn't risking her heart she can go forward with Ray because the emotional fallout she suffered with her father and Cooper (and to an extent Oliver) won't be there, if the relationship ends.

 

Or she is faking it 'til she makes it. Like with Cooper's "suicide" in College she decided to change her "identity" and hideout as a lowly "IT Girl". Have a normal life, (Which kind of reminds me of Oliver's compartmentalising, but that is a discussion for a different thread).

When Felicity loves, she goes all the way, with her father, with Cooper and in 3x01 willing to try it with Oliver.

 

This is why I'm not buying Ray/Felicity at this point.  You can change your appearance (it's a state), but you can't change how you love, that's a trait.    She may date Ray casually but she turned down Barry (in 2x09 and maybe in 1x04), who understood her as well as anyone could and was willing to go along with her on her terms,   Their banter when he burst in on her morning was fun but the writers have to really dial it up and dial it up fast for me to think of him as someone Felicity might be serious about.

 

EBR described Felicity looking for transparency and that is something I think Ray offers her. With Ray, what you see seems to be what you get. I can see that being really appealing to Felicity right now. 

But if speculation about Ray is right and he does have underlying motives, how will she react?  Will she accept it that this is yet another complicated person in her life, or will she say "if that's what he's like, I'm better off with Oliver who I do know".

 

It's interesting that like Felicity, Thea is also looking for transparency and she thinks she found it with Malcolm.  How will she deal with it when she finds out that Malcolm knows Oliver is the Arrow and has been hiding it, and also has been hiding that he is the one who caused the Queen's Gambit to blow up in an attempt to kill Robert?

[Password]

EBR described Felicity looking for transparency and that is something I think Ray offers her. With Ray, what you see seems to be what you get. I can see that being really appealing to Felicity right now. Felicity also probably understands that absent minded genius part of Ray. Its comfortable and easy and nonthreatening. The perfect rebound. They have an easy rapport that I find pleasant. But there is no depth to the relationship because they are on an even playing field; There is no challenge to their interactions. If/when Ray steps into the hero mode, that dynamic wouldn't get any more interesting; It would just transfer from QC to the Cave.

This. As much as we know Oliver desperately wants to have a relationship and "everything" with Felicity, unless he does something and says something it really is just dangling maybes to Felicity. I always thought

Ray and Felicity's relationship was meant to showcase to Oliver that you CAN have a romantic life and a vigilante life.

In theory it's a great way to showcase it, but the execution has been such that I'm not giving Ray a fair chance because I can see Oliver is TRYING to get himself together now. Yes, episode 3 was massively rough, but episode 5 made things fairly complicated for me because once again, Felicity and Oliver are ACTING married, and supportive and open (with undertones). So Ray being all those things make me go "he'd make an excellent friend for Felicity because he's on that intellectual level and will grant her that mental space a FRIEND often gives us".

In my understanding,

Ray becoming a superhero and still wanting a relationship with Felicity is what will give her an " option". Something that up until now Oliver isn't willing to give her so Ray would seem a good way to go.

I don't know how the

(probable) lying to Felicity will work out, but didn't I read somewhere that Ray will be an ally? So even if they're together or apart, they will inevitably work together.

And there's also the fact that Felicity's being untruthful with Ray too. (Agh I just had a flash forward of Felicity and Ray in the foundry that made me think of ToD with Oliver and Sara). *shudder*

Edited November 9, 2014 by Limbo

[Luckylyn]

I've been thinking about how sad it is that the Walter/Felicity friendship from Season 1 was just dropped.   He really was a solid character whose relationships with Thea, Oliver, and Felicity could have really added to the show.   Honestly, he should have been the one Oliver went to, to  ask someone to run QC.   Thea should be torn between her two father figures where Malcolm is the devil on her shoulder with Walter as the grey Angel.  Walter did have some shady moments so I can't think of him as a total angel.  I think a father/daughter dynamic could have developed between Walter/Felicity that could have been interesting.

 

I'm not happy at the lack of Diggle/Felicity.  That friendship is one of my favorites and they haven't really interacted in Season 3.  When Sara died, I expected a moment of comfort between them and got nothing.  I'm glad that Oliver was able to support Felicity in the last episode, but Diggle could have been there for her too.  Does Ray's inclusion mean that Felicity has to be isolated ?  There was potential for a Felicity/Quentin friendship that was never pursued.  She can have more than love interests in her life.  A friendship with Roy/Felicity could be promising.  I keep crossing my fingers that Felicity/Thea will have some interaction.  There are no female friendships on this show without Sara/Sin.  It's a real shame. 

 

I don't know if Felicity/Laurel could ever be friends.  A dynamic seems to have developed where Laurel views Felicity as an underling and not as an equal, and I don't think friendship can happen unless Laurel stops being so autocratic.   Laurel's like that with most people and that seems to be one of her consistent traits.  Oliver can be like that too, but he has moments where he acknowledges what the team contributes and where he's there for them like they are for him.  Laurel needs moments like that and maybe friendships with Felicity and Diggle can stem from that.   I Iike exploring the romantic dynamics, but the platonic ones matter a lot to me too.

 

I really appreciate the Thea/Oliver family scenes.  I am enjoying the bonding while it lasts.  They both are being so dishonest with each other and it's like this powder keg about the explode when all secrets are revealed.

[TanyaKay]

At this point, I so badly want a scene between Quentin and Felicity. Poor Paul gets all his scenes with KC, he could do with a change of pace.

[Luckylyn]

I think I would dance for joy for just  a scene of Quentin/Felicity meeting for coffee.   Quentin seems completely isolated with only his daughter and work.   Give the man a friend.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

At this point, I so badly want a scene between Quentin and Felicity. Poor Paul gets all his scenes with KC, he could do with a change of pace.

I would love it if he would call her for help but not need the Arrow. A little cyber-sleuthing Arrow can't do a thing about.

[statsgirl]

I want Donna to come back and be in a relationship with Quentin.  (I tweeted that and one of the writers favorited it so there's hope.)

 

Can you imagine the scenes with Quentin and Felicity eye-rolling at her mother getting all enthusiastic about something?

 

 

I've been thinking about how sad it is that the Walter/Felicity friendship from Season 1 was just dropped.   He really was a solid character whose relationships with Thea, Oliver, and Felicity could have really added to the show.   Honestly, he should have been the one Oliver went to, to  ask someone to run QC.   Thea should be torn between her two father figures where Malcolm is the devil on her shoulder with Walter as the grey Angel.  Walter did have some shady moments so I can't think of him as a total angel.  I think a father/daughter dynamic could have developed between Walter/Felicity that could have been interesting.

 

I don't know if Felicity/Laurel could ever be friends.  A dynamic seems to have developed where Laurel views Felicity as an underling and not as an equal, and I don't think friendship can happen unless Laurel stops being so autocratic.   Laurel's like that with most people and that seems to be one of her consistent traits.  Oliver can be like that too, but he has moments where he acknowledges what the team contributes and where he's there for them like they are for him.  Laurel needs moments like that and maybe friendships with Felicity and Diggle can stem from that.   I Iike exploring the romantic dynamics, but the platonic ones matter a lot to me too.

I think they could have done so much more with Walter, as Thea's good father, as Oliver's business mentor the way Diggle is his fighting mentor, and as a father-type mentor for Felicity. But the EPs seem to have no interest in anyone over the age of forty who isn't John Barrowman.

 

I wish they would give Laurel a female friend, or maybe just let us know she's seeing Joanna again.  There need to be female friendships on this show but Laurel and Felicity have such different personalities, I can't see them ever as BFFs.  Sara was more like Felicity than Laurel, and EBR said that she wanted Felicity to have a friend in Caitlyn, which makes sense since they are both strong, intellectual and caring women.

 

It's too bad they killed Kate Spencer because I could she her as a mentor to Laurel.

[dtissagirl]

From the spoiler thread:
 

You know, I sort of did see them as star crossed. Girl likes boy, boy sleeps with everyone else but girl. Girl and boy are both always in life/death situations, boy is notoriously emotionally stunted, girl is independent enough to not let boy get her in a tizzy and actually move on to other men (Barry)...

None of what you say spell star-crossed to me. it only spells, well -- ordinary romance. Which is what I appreciate about Oliver/Felicity. They're the two crazy kids who live crazy lives, but with the potential for a down to Earth normal healthy relationship.

 

When I think "star-crossed" I think "destined", and "huge external forces keeping them apart", and "doomed from the start" and "against all odds". I don't really relate any of that to Oliver/Felicity. They aren't destined [that was the Oliver/Laurel schtick set up in the pilot], the only thing cockblocking them is Oliver himself, they don't have a nasty past nor any looming terrible secret dooming them, and the odds are actually in their favor, because they already love each other, and trust each other, and actually want to be together.

[wonderwall]

From the spoiler thread:

 

None of what you say spell star-crossed to me. it only spells, well -- ordinary romance. Which is what I appreciate about Oliver/Felicity. They're the two crazy kids who live crazy lives, but with the potential for a down to Earth normal healthy relationship.

 

When I think "star-crossed" I think "destined", and "huge external forces keeping them apart", and "doomed from the start" and "against all odds". I don't really relate any of that to Oliver/Felicity. They aren't destined [that was the Oliver/Laurel schtick set up in the pilot], the only thing cockblocking them is Oliver himself, they don't have a nasty past nor any looming terrible secret dooming them, and the odds are actually in their favor, because they already love each other, and trust each other, and actually want to be together.

I guess I think of star crossed as a couple with bad timing and a bit of bad luck :p I feel like Oliver/Felicity have had bad timing. 

 

Maybe MG has a different definition for the word? I honestly don't think he meant star crossed as in doomed from the start or destined. I mean it's quite obvious it wasn't destined because the plans changed FOR  Oliver/Felicity's relationship. 

Edited November 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

I guess I think of star crossed as a couple with bad timing and a bit of bad luck :p I feel like Oliver/Felicity have had bad timing.

 

Yeah, you and I have wildly different takes on the star-crossed, and maybe MG sees it in a third different way. :) All I see when people say it is Romeo & Juliet, which I think is where the term comes from.

[wonderwall]

Yeah, you and I have wildly different takes on the star-crossed, and maybe MG sees it in a third different way. :) All I see when people say it is Romeo & Juliet, which I think is where the term comes from.

Ahhh, upon googling it, there are a few definitions. But I hope Guggenheim has a different definition of Star crossed because Oliver and FElicity's relationship isn't being 'thwarted' by outside forces like Romeo and Juliet's relationship. Their relationship is being thwarted internally, by OLIVER himself because he honestly doesn't believe he can balance being the Arrow and being Oliver. But Oliver's journey indicates that he WILL find a way to balance being Oliver and Arrow and I suppose if there's something that keeps them apart after this realization then yes, it will be more star-crossed. I'm assuming Oliver will have this realization but Felicity will be dating Ray or something. 

[Pyramid]

The thing I liked about Felicity and Oliver was the natural way their relationship grew. No big dramas (in an emotional sense) just the steady increase in feelings for one another. It really gave the show an emotional maturity and grounding.
Which they've decided to sacrifice on the altar of on again/off again via the impressive feat of Oliver cockblocking himself. 

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. Oliver/Felicity kind of happened without much plotting AT ALL in S1, then there were very few active narrative moves in S2 [most of their story was reactive in S2 -- they moved forward by reacting to Isabel, to The Count, to Barry, to Sara, to Slade]. Now that they actually have to spend time coming up with legit story arc for them... It's a sad stance, I know, but I actually wouldn't be surprised in the least if the romance narrative sticks to reaching certain plot points/development beats that they planned way back for Oliver/Laurel, except they now switched her for Felicity.

[Password]

It's a sad stance, I know, but I actually wouldn't be surprised in the least if the romance narrative sticks to reaching certain plot points/development beats that they planned way back for Oliver/Laurel, except they now switched her for Felicity.

Yes and it actually WORKS this time around.

[dtissagirl]

Yes and it actually WORKS this time around.

 

That's my biggest hope! I feel somewhat frustrated by the fact that they decided to complicate an uncomplicated relationship for the sake of throwing slow-burn star-crossed on-again/off-again and other hyphenated tropes at them, but I also can clearly see that the writers enjoy writing this pairing *a lot*, and that they tend to really do right by Felicity, so. I'm hanging in there. :)

[tv echo]

The term "star-crossed" seems to have evolved from its original strict definition of being doomed by the stars, destiny or fate into a looser definition of just being unlucky in love.  Origins:

star-crossed lovers definition

Lovers whose relationship is doomed to fail are said to be “star-crossed” (frustrated by the stars), because those who believe in astrology claim that the stars control human destiny. William Shakespeare used the phrase to describe the lovers in Romeo and Juliet.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/star-crossed+lovers

Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our Scene ,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whose misadventur'd piteous overthrows
Doth with their death bury their parents' strife.
- Romeo And Juliet Prologue

http://www.bardwords.org/famous-shakespeare-quotes/star-crossed-lovers.htm

 

So I guess whether or not Oliver & Felicity are "star-crossed" depends on which definition you favor.

Edited November 13, 2014 by tv echo

[blixie]

Right I think Olicity could be seen as having been thwarted by circumstance in that Oliver was "ready" to date Felicity, until an external event (The New Count's attack) reminded him he isn't ready, and 'maybe never will be'. Everyone realizes this is bullshit except for, y'know, Oliver. 

[KenyaJ]

I forgot about this scene but it totally made me go, "Oh! He's back invading her personal space." LOL! Seriously, Oliver didn't need to stand that close to Felicity. It's not like he needed to keep the conversation hush-hush.

 

 

LOL. During the episode, I remember feeling such a jolt the moment Oliver turned from Laurel to speak to Felicity. I don't know if it's really present acting on Stephen's part, or if his chemistry with Emily is so natural that he doesn't even have to think about it, but the minute he got in Felicity's personal space, the remainder of the scene felt "charged" to me. When I watched it back, I noticed the way he got near her and had to stop and compose himself before he spoke to her. It was such a small moment that probably only a shipper would notice/pay attention to, but I love little moments like that in an otherwise non-shippery episode.

[Pyramid]

I'm laughing at that gif because it looks like he slides up to Felicity on a skateboard.

[Carrie Ann]

One positive note on this episode (there weren't many): I appreciate that it doesn't feel awful when Oliver and Felicity are on-screen together anymore. Episodes 2-4 were tough to take, because while I knew there would be angst this season, it wasn't enjoyable to have them being so cold to each other (well, mostly Oliver, but you know). The team dynamics of this episode could have been lifted from any part of last season, basically, and that's all I can ask at this point I suppose. I know we're in for more and worse, but at least we've had two episodes where I could see their old bond firmly in place.

[NumberCruncher]

I do think a lot of what you see in the Oliver/Felicity scenes has a lot to do with how Stephen plays them. It was especially noticeable in last night's episode. The way Stephen reacted as Oliver to Laurel versus Felicity in each scene was exactly as I would have expected. Even when Oliver and Laurel hugged Stephen played it as friends comforting each other. Oliver didn't even touch Felicity in this episode and you could see and sense the difference in how he approached her and hovered around her while she's at her computer. I mean, did he really need to get THAT close to discuss Roy's situation with her? Heh.

One of the things I find most interesting is how Oliver speaks depending on the situation. His voice always seemed higher and more youthful in the Lian Yu flashbacks. He speaks normally in the present day scenes but he uses a different voice when speaking specifically to Felicity. I don't know if the quieter voice is because he's almost always right up in her personal space or if it's a conscious acting choice on Stephen's part, but it's really noticeable IMO.

Edited November 13, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[statsgirl]

He's used the quieter voice to  Thea too on occasion, and I think occasionally to some of the women in his life, like Sara last season.  It must be the voice he uses to someone he cares about.

[apinknightmare]

Felicity was working for him on Team Arrow.  Wouldn't that merit something?

To be honest, Oliver would have done better to pay Felicity so she could spend the time prepping him to be a more viable CEO so he could take over QC than working at Buy More.

 

I wonder if he paid Diggle and Roy. If he paid them because they're guys and didn't pay Felicity, we're back to 1970 when Lou Grant paid Mary Richards less because she's a woman and didn't need the money like a man does.

 

I don't think any of them were compensated by Oliver for their contributions to the Team - I like that they do it on a voluntary basis. I like to think Oliver's way of thanking them was to keep Felicity in the latest tech, and keep Diggle in...whatever it is that he loves.

[Guest]

Based on some discussion in the spoiler thread:

 

Does it really need spelling out that Felicity is in love with Oliver? I thought it was pretty obvious, although sometimes I wonder if she has fully realized the depth of her feelings. In s2 when Barry asked if she liked Oliver and she denied it, I just assumed that she hadn't let herself consider her feelings too deeply, hadn't allowed herself to acknowledge them because she thought Oliver would never feel that way about her. That I believe over her not really having stronger feelings than a crush. She just hasn't said as much because she's protecting herself. She'll have to feel pretty damn secure of Oliver before she admits it and I don't blame her. He hasn't given her any reason to put herself out there yet. He will but not yet. Until then she'll keep her cards close to her chest. 

 

But really, her love for him is in everything she has done. She's supported him and never left his side even when everyone else did. Her belief in him is unfailing. The trust between them hasn't been matched by anyone. Oliver has never known an unselfish love like Felicity's before. It's all there between the lines, just as Oliver's feelings in s2 were. You had to read a little deeper but they were there, no question.

[statsgirl]

It's funny (as in 'not in a good way') that we get Felicity's feelings from scenes with Barry, and Oliver's from scenes with Diggle.

 

 

Based on some discussion in the spoiler thread:

 

. In s2 when Barry asked if she liked Oliver and she denied it, I just assumed that she hadn't let herself consider her feelings too deeply, hadn't allowed herself to acknowledge them because she thought Oliver would never feel that way about her. 

That's where she was when Barry asked her in s2.  In s3, in the Flash episode Going Rogue (not even an Arrow episode, really writers!), she acknowledged that it was a quiet dream that she had, to be with Oliver.

 

In The Calm, Diggle called Oliver out on saying the ILU was just to fool Slade because it was true, and Oliver was having some quiet dreams of his own.

 

But in true soap opera fashion, these two never really talk about their feelings.  Although at the end of Secret Origins, Oliver realized that Felicity didn't want him to talk about how he feels about her if he's not going to do anything about it..

[Danny Franks]

 

But in true soap opera fashion, these two never really talk about their feelings.  Although at the end of Secret Origins, Oliver realized that Felicity didn't want him to talk about how he feels about her if he's not going to do anything about it..

 

It comes back to, "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas". People who make no attempt to get things to work out, and then bemoan and whine about the fact that... things don't work out. I don't really have any sympathy for either of them. Stupid reasons for stupid decisions.

[apinknightmare]

They don't need to talk about their feelings, because their not being together has nothing to do with a misunderstanding over how they feel. Oliver didn't decide not to pursue a relationship with Felicity because he thinks she doesn't love him. It's because he feels like his personal feelings risk his mission. Felicity didn't walk away because she thinks he doesn't love her. She walked away because he's wishy washy and won't commit. Is Felicity telling him she loves him going to change his mind? No, it just makes her vulnerable. At this point, why would she make herself vulnerable to him?

Some of y'all must have the most interesting personal lives of you're putting yourself out there all the time, risking your heart for the sake of telling someone how you feel. It's not always that easy, and it doesn't always make things better. This show gets super cliche and tropey, but I actually understand why these two are doing what they're doing. Dragging it out would be terrible, but IMO the way they're dealing at the moment is in character for both of them.

Edited November 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

That's where she was when Barry asked her in s2.  In s3, in the Flash episode Going Rogue (not even an Arrow episode, really writers!), she acknowledged that it was a quiet dream that she had, to be with Oliver.

 

In The Calm, Diggle called Oliver out on saying the ILU was just to fool Slade because it was true, and Oliver was having some quiet dreams of his own.

 

But in true soap opera fashion, these two never really talk about their feelings.  Although at the end of Secret Origins, Oliver realized that Felicity didn't want him to talk about how he feels about her if he's not going to do anything about it..

 

Well yeah. I'm sure she has acknowledged how she feels now, especially after their five months of flirting and whatever and then Oliver asking her on a date. I'm sure she's fully aware now. But just because she's aware doesn't mean she's not afraid of putting herself out there. 

 

And if their date had gone as planned I'm sure they were both leading up to a talk about feelings but it exploded and here we are. Why would she tell him how she feels when he's told her he can't be with her? What's the point? If Oliver wants Felicity to reciprocate on his love confession he's going to have to show that he's not going to run away again when things get tough. Until then things are just going to be left unsaid. But I understand that. Just because it's not said out loud doesn't mean those feelings don't exist. I guess that's what I was trying to say. I don't need an 'I love you' from Felicity to know that she's in love with Oliver. I see it already. 

[Orion]

I'm the opposite. I sympathize with both of them.

 

At this point what is there to talk about? Oliver decided for both of them that he couldn't be the Arrow and Oliver Queen, Felicity had to listen to Oliver tell Diggle how this wasn't his crusade and how it wasn't Diggle's choice and how Oliver couldn't have the life Digg has now. Which might have been a conversation between Digg and Oliver but was completely about Oliver and Felicity. Even if Felicity had heard Oliver say,  "I don't want to die down here" it is a far cry from I want to live. Which he hasn't chosen, yet.  In Oliver's POV bad things happen when he lets himself be Oliver and not the Arrow (the city is at risk, his friends are at risk, his family dies, Felicity gets hurt) and he's not wrong about that. Part of being human and living involves bad things happening and Arrow is not always going to be able to save everyone.  When we live we risk. He has to learn to accept that you have to live for now because tomorrow might not happen.

 

From Felicity's point of view she has one choice accept what he said. So she does, she's not going to let him emotionally depend on her love to support him while he does whatever he wants (Hey, Laurel).  If she pushes for more it could destroy their friendship and then she'd be left with nothing. Felicity's POV is fine, I accept your decision but I'm not going to stay here hanging on hope until you get your act together. I'm your friend and partner in this but I want more out of life. She's not throwing tantrums, trying to emotionally blackmail him or pinning over him. She's saying she comes first. What she wants and what she needs. Strong female character. YAY!

 

The way I view it is Oliver is a married man. He's committed to his cause. He has no problem flirting with and giving backwards I love yous to Felicity, giving out maybes that he's thinking about getting a divorce and maybe then they could be together some time in the future. He's not happy with his current relationship but you know for the kids (city) he has to stay. I would never give my friend the advice to hang around for that. If he loves her he'd find a way and if she loves him she wouldn't stay and give her silent support to a toxic relationship that is going to get him killed. And if she loves herself she wouldn't accept anything else then a full commitment. Crappy metaphor aside.  

 

I think the internet would call me a Felicity first fan so the fact that I can empathize with Oliver at all is a testament to how the writers are doing with this, at least for me. With all the many many issues I have with the writing of Arrow I actually think they are doing a good job with Oliver and Felicity so far.  I don't trust them at all not to screw this up but so far I'm happy with it. 

 

There is a famous quote that all stories that are written have already been told and that's true for Arrow like everything else. Nothing they do is going to be ground breaking story development. What makes each story different is the characters not the story. I'm invested in Oliver and Felicity's relationship not because their relationship is new and unique but because of Oliver and Felicity. I remain invested which is why what they are doing to the rest of the story is so heart breaking to me.

[Danny Franks]

Some of y'all must have the most interesting personal lives of you're putting yourself out there all the time, risking your heart for the sake of telling someone how you feel. It's not always that easy, and it doesn't always make things better. This show gets super cliche and tropey, but I actually understand why these two are doing what they're doing. Dragging it out would be terrible, but IMO the way they're dealing at the moment is in character for both of them.

You're right. Relationships are hard. They're for people who are prepared to try and to persevere, not for people who give up and walk away at the first sign of a problem. Oliver doesn't want one because he thinks it's just too difficult for him to have a normal life. He was happy to settle for physical relationships before, because that gave him what he wanted without having to worry about the emotional side. And Felicity would rather give up on the guy she perhaps loves, and move on because that's easier. And 50 Shades is supposed to be Oliver without the drama, so he's perfect for someone who doesn't want to deal with the difficult stuff.

But I suppose it depends on what a viewer wants from the show. If they want to see Oliver 'earn' Felicity after a period of pining and yearning, while she acts obliviously and enjoys her Oliver replacement, then I think that viewer will be quite happy with the way things develop. I know that audience is out there.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Danny Franks

[apinknightmare]

Well, if Felicity "giving up" means I won't have to watch her pathetically chase after a guy who made it clear he isn't ready to be in a relationship with her, then I'm fine with that!

[statsgirl]

The way I view it is Oliver is a married man. He's committed to his cause. He has no problem flirting with and giving backwards I love yous to Felicity, giving out maybes that he's thinking about getting a divorce and maybe then they could be together some time in the future. He's not happy with his current relationship but you know for the kids (city) he has to stay. I would never give my friend the advice to hang around for that. If he loves her he'd find a way and if she loves him she wouldn't stay and give her silent support to a toxic relationship that is going to get him killed. And if she loves herself she wouldn't accept anything else then a full commitment. Crappy metaphor aside.  

I think that's the perfect metaphor, even to him going to her occasionally for what he wants ("and you know how I feel about her") but never willing to leave his marriage for her.  Kudos to you.

Edited November 19, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I think that's the perfect metaphor, even to him going to her occasionally for what he wants ("and you know how I feel about her") but never willing to leave his marriage for her.  Kudos to you.

 

I agree. That pretty much sums it up.