Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

That is my biggest complaint about the execution of the 100th after the storyline was decided. I just wished Felicity's appearances in the deam world to be instances of real Felicity managing to find cracks in the aliens' firewall. It would have kept her more active and engaged in that storyline than cracking funny with the B team while a good chunk of her own team was kidnapped by aliens!

The Felicity in the 100th was made even worse because Curtis had to mansplain' things for her because they wrote her as such an airhead..  Of all the three crossover episodes, she was the worst in the Arrow one where she should have been the most Felicity.

[thegirlsleuth]

I ended up re-watching LoT which included their crossover episode, and in the crossover episode I was struck how much I liked the Felicity/Cisco dynamic as opposed to Felicity/Curtis.  I think it was because Cisco has a certain vulnerability that he comes off less pedantic, at least to me.

[Guest]

Curtis is the worst. Sorry but I just want him gone now. It's bad enough they've given him skills that Felicity used to do and now seemingly can't but it's the way he interrupts her all the time that really bugs me. Enough already. Just go.

[tangerine95]

I did notice Felicity rambling way more and constantly making jokes in 5a and I agree it's probably at least in part them trying to please the crowd that wanted her as comic relief just like they made Oliver emotionless half the time because some people said he wasn't badass anymore.It did fit both of their characters to deal with it in that way with Felicity trying to joke around and act happy to hide her feelings since it is something they established she does and Oliver with shutting down and focusing on the mission.But I can't really tell if that was their intention because they kept claiming in interviews that Oliver and Felicity were fine and being totally mature about everything and it wasn't something they ever addressed on screen like I would expect.At least it stopped with Felicity after they killed off Billy and she was back to normal and I really loved her scenes.Robot Oliver was there until 5.16-5.17.

[TrueMyth]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I always viewed it as Smoak Tech being Oliver's way to break out of the delusion (because yes, Felicity is the light and guide home). So that was his brain's way of fighting through rather than the aliens putting it there.

IDK, now I'm confused. Haha.

So, if I were writing/directing and wanted to convey Smoak Tech as Oliver's brain cutting in, I'd make it glitchy in some way... Like the building isn't there in one shot, the Green Arrow flies by and then the next shot shows the tower behind him, or better yet, has it faze into existence just before he turns and notices it.  That would be a clear way to show that it was Oliver overwriting the alien dream.

That said, why would Oliver manifest Felicity in that way?  As far as we know, she hasn't talked about starting her own company at that point.

3 hours ago, bijoux said:

@TrueMyth, I'm not sure what you mean about surface level emotional value?

Yeah, my rant got away from me... I think I was trying to say that, as an Olicity fan, if I was an alien trying to distract Oliver's brain while gathering data on metas, I would stick him in Ivy Town with a Stepford Felcity who just wants to talk about slow cookers and get sweaty with him.  That would hold him for a while and it is STRANGE that that isn't what happened.  As is, the alien verse Oliver had no connection to any of the Felicitys.  He felt flashes when he meets her in the lair and something when he sees the tower, but that is because they are incongruous to the fake world the aliens made. Basically, he shouldn't react to her, but he does on a limbic level, which helps him break free.  And that is romantic, except they don't fully frame it that way in the way that it is shot AND it makes no sense that the aliens would set their trap that way.

[quarks]

To be fair, if these had been competent aliens, capable of setting better traps, Team Flash, Team Arrow and Team Legends wouldn't have been able to defeat them in just three nights, even with Supergirl's help. 

[BkWurm1]

The goal of the alien dream world wasn't to trap them forever, just long enough for the machine to pick their brain for info about meta humans and it did that.  They just also woke up on their own and for some reason no one was monitoring them.  But yeah, no one ever said the machine was that well designed and I was actually ok with that since aliens shouldn't know that much about how human minds work.  

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

So, if I were writing/directing and wanted to convey Smoak Tech as Oliver's brain cutting in, I'd make it glitchy in some way... Like the building isn't there in one shot, the Green Arrow flies by and then the next shot shows the tower behind him, or better yet, has it faze into existence just before he turns and notices it.  That would be a clear way to show that it was Oliver overwriting the alien dream.

That said, why would Oliver manifest Felicity in that way?  As far as we know, she hasn't talked about starting her own company at that point.

Yeah, my rant got away from me... I think I was trying to say that, as an Olicity fan, if I was an alien trying to distract Oliver's brain while gathering data on metas, I would stick him in Ivy Town with a Stepford Felcity who just wants to talk about slow cookers and get sweaty with him.  That would hold him for a while and it is STRANGE that that isn't what happened.  As is, the alien verse Oliver had no connection to any of the Felicitys.  He felt flashes when he meets her in the lair and something when he sees the tower, but that is because they are incongruous to the fake world the aliens made. Basically, he shouldn't react to her, but he does on a limbic level, which helps him break free.  And that is romantic, except they don't fully frame it that way in the way that it is shot AND it makes no sense that the aliens would set their trap that way.

I see what you're saying but I also don't think they thought about it that deeply. Smoak Tech was just a different way of having a guide home, one that would be recognizable to the audience as both being out of place (because it doesn't even exist in the real world) and also that has some meaning/connection with Felicity. At least, that's how I took it. I could be wrong though.

As for the rest of it, it is weird that Oliver had no connection to any of the Felicitys. I just think they were trying to distance themselves from their romance/connection at that point in the season tbh. It made no sense because, as you said, if they wanted Oliver to stay in the delusional world, they should have had him marrying Felicity because the Oliver we've watched for 4 seasons is in love with her and wanted to build a life with her. But the delusional world was also a "what if Oliver never got on the boat" scenario which conflicted with Felicity being there in that way because he had never met her before. 

As I said before, a mess.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Guest

[TrueMyth]

33 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

The goal of the alien dream world wasn't to trap them forever, just long enough for the machine to pick their brain for info about meta humans and it did that.  They just also woke up on their own and for some reason no one was monitoring them.  But yeah, no one ever said the machine was that well designed and I was actually ok with that since aliens shouldn't know that much about how human minds work.  

It's been a while, but weren't these aliens supposed to be monitoring humans for a while?  I seem to remember their introduction on the Flash being a relatively creepy intro of them being here since the 50s.  Since metal powers are their thing, that seem like more than enough time to get a basic handle on human brains.

Bah!  Honestly, it just isn't smart writing.  I mean, if they wanted the "never got on the boat" speculation as a nod to the pilot, they could have had Oliver drop a broody line to someone to that effect... Something to make clear that his mind was on that track... Like sure, aliens would still come, but Laurel wouldn't have died, Thea would be less screwed up, what if... I could even stretch to see him thinking he has somehow held back Felicity, like if not for their night time activities (the other ones) she'd be putting her energies into taking over the techno-business world. Just a couple of broody lines to Barry or something at the end of the Flash episode and I could have made much better sense of that wacky world.

[leopardprint]

41 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

Just a couple of broody lines to Barry or something at the end of the Flash episode and I could have made much better sense of that wacky world.

One way it could kind of make sense is that world is a manifestation of Oliver's guilt over his loved ones who have died. So it's really a dreamworld he's created for them? Like his parents are alive and proud of him? Laurel is alive and marrying him (ok but the last thing she said to him was that he was the love of her life ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) Tommy fulfilled his dream of being poorly CGI'd? He thinks it's a world that would make the people he feels most guilty about happy? Felicity and Diggle aren't there because he thinks they would be better off never having met him?

Or it was just a garbage episode full of "wouldn't it be cool if" set pieces with no logical thread to tie them together which I still haven't seen all of. 

2 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

Basically, he shouldn't react to her, but he does on a limbic level, which helps him break free. And that is romantic, except they don't fully frame it that way in the way that it is shot AND it makes no sense that the aliens would set their trap that way.

This is one of the reasons why I am skeptical that they planned to put them back together from the beginning of the season because they could have done more with this. Though that probably would have messed up Oliver's grand romance with Suze. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by leopardprint

[way2interested]

28 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

This is one of the reasons why I am skeptical that they planned to put them back together from the beginning of the season because they could have done more with this. Though that probably would have messed up Oliver's grand romance with Suze. 

I'm curious, what are the other reasons and when do you think they decided it then?

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

This is one of the reasons why I am skeptical that they planned to put them back together from the beginning of the season because they could have done more with this. Though that probably would have messed up Oliver's grand romance with Suze. 

The 100th episode had zero effects on the episodes after it and I don't think anyone even ever mentioned anything that happened in it. In fact, the whole crossover existed in a vacuum, so I don't see why the fact there were no Olicity scenes in the 100th meant anything about what would happen to Oliver and Felicity in the regular season.

[statsgirl]

I think the 100th episode was GB, AK and MG's love letter to themselves, the show they would have had their original idea worked out.  It had nothing to do Arrow s5 or any of the relationships that were on the show itself except for Oliver, Thea and their parents.

[insomniadreams88]

It really seemed like with the 100th, they were honoring season 1 - and season 1’s relationships - and then threw in Ray and Felicity together because ... they liked Felicity in that dress?

[Chaser]

It was more about the pilot then the last 100 episodes. 

Just really weird storytelling.

[insomniadreams88]

There was just such a disconnect between the relationships they’d spent nearly 100 episodes developing and the ones they showcased. And the same was true of season 5 for the most part. Which is not what I want from a show, especially once it reaches its 3rd, 4th, 5th seasons. 

[LeighAn]

Lololololol I'm up to 5x11 in my rewatch. The line "You keep comparing them to Laurel which is an impossible standard to live up to" still makes me cackle. ?

Edited October 10, 2017 by LeighAn

[scarynikki12]

My detailed response to a blog post claim about how Green Arrow/Black Canary are the second most iconic DC couple after Superman/Lois is more appropriate here.

In the interest of fairness, I would say that Oliver and Dinah are iconic to those who read their comics while Supes/Lois, Diana/Steve, and Bats/Cats are helped by the various movies and shows that have put their relationships front and center.  Iris and Barry are gaining more ground thanks to the shows and animated movies but their relationship also shows up in way more comics than Oliver/Dinah so I'd still place them ahead on the Iconic scale. Oliver and Dinah are at a disadvantage as a result.  To be honest, other than the occasional crossover to Birds of Prey I don't really see much of Oliver/Dinah in my comics since I don't read Green Arrow.  Hell my first introduction to Dinah was when I flipped through the comic where she hooked up with Batman!  Then I started reading Birds of Prey and, as far as I'm concerned, her most important relationships are with Babs and Helena.

ETA: Maybe if the Oliver/Laurel relationship had been successful as originally planned things would change but it didn't.

[Guest]

For me, iconic status only goes to something that transcends its original form, if that makes sense? So if you've never read a comic book or watched a comic book show in your life and yet you know Superman/Lois Lane, that makes them iconic, IMO. 

The first time I'd ever heard of GA or BC was when I started watching Arrow. So...yeah. 

(Also, I'm not sure how a relationship can be considered iconic when it's such a toxic mess but YMMV.)

[lemotomato]

Yeah, I think the issue here is the use of "iconic" to describe GA/BC. The guy at IGN could've written his article gushing about how much he loved them as a couple and I would've just rolled my eyes, but he earned some well deserved scorn for saying they're second only to Lois and Clark, because, yeah, no way. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

I'd toss in a few of the Marvel pairings on the iconic list before we hit GA/BC.  I mean, it makes little sense to limit the list to DC.  If we are talking iconic comic couples, you have to IMO consider all the ones the general public would know.  Maybe it was never intended to be one, but Tony Stark and Pepper Potts has carved out a substantial niche.  

Edited October 13, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

From spoiler thread:

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

My thought is that they aren't sleeping together regularly or even officially, but given their history once there was no longer a strong emotional reason to stay away, they probably have given in a handful of times or at the very least come close.  I mean, it's been FIVE months and I wasn't sure they'd be able to wait two weeks before the island mess.

 But because they've decided because of William not to rush the dating part, they probably keep telling themselves they shouldn't be sleeping together yet. So anytime it has happened, they reset to being tentative and hesitant because everything is still ill-defined and it's uncertain when they can have a full on relationship again.  Not if it's going to happen, that part they both are confident of, but how it's going to work along with when is the right time is making them act like courting preteens. 

Or I'm totally wrong and I'm fine with that as well.  One thing is for certain, they haven't been dating other people. :D  

I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if they gave in maybe one time after they returned from the island because that was probably a lot of intense emotions of finding each other alive. And I have no doubts that they both know there's no one else for them and are committed to each other. But it was just the hesitance and the lack of touching/kissing which made me think perhaps they haven't gone there yet. I think there's been a lot of time focusing on Thea and getting William settled and also being mayor/GA that maybe they've only had time to talk and flirt in stolen moments around the team (hence the team leaving the room and not being at all subtle about it, haha). 

I don't mind either way tbh. One thing I always disliked between both s2/s3 and then s3/s4 is that I felt like we missed a lot of building/flirty moments between O/F so if this is means I get to see those steps on screen, I'm all for it.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah, that's what I think too. I think they are waiting for the right moment to make things official and haven't taken that step yet because of everything that has been going on and especially with the problem of fitting William in their lives. Oliver seemed ready but Felicity seems unsure..maybe because she knows how hard it is to adjust to losing a parent from personal experience?

Anyway I hope they explain where they stand through flashbacks or a conversation soon and don't do like last year when we were confused until the spring. It was so annoying.

[lemotomato]

I'd expect them to make everything clear in time

Spoiler

for the crossover wedding.

[bijoux]

I'm leaning towards occasional slip ups, which is why they are tentative around each other. Linger too long and we know we'll end up on the mats/my chair/your workbench/the cot/... again.

If it pans out otherwise, I'll be 100% fine with that as well.

[statsgirl]

Everyone in the lair knows about them so I imagine there have been a few inadvertently-public displays of affection.  Also Oliver isn't so obviously wanting to touch her and hesitant to as he was at the end of the last season.

[thegirlsleuth]

As much as it defies human behavior that Oliver and Felicity would go five months without progressing their relationship, I think they are trying to fix a story problem they had between seasons 2 and 3, where we went from heart eyes at the end of 2 to "I love you" at the beginning of 3 with the audience being left out of the slow build during the summer.  I think they might be trying to prevent the "It came out of nowhere!" criticism.

Or, Marc is saving it for his book to drive up sales.  Either one.

[way2interested]

Quote

What is the Sexy Lamp test?

I think Felicity/Thea scenes pass even if they are about Team Arrow because they have a relationship.  Thea cares about Felicity as a person and vice versa. They've been through a lot together.  Felicity and Dinah still don't know each other (does Dinah even know about Billy? Donna?  Does Felicity know if Dinah has familiy?) and have nothing in common that we know of but the Team.

Bechdel test literally only has three components: 

• Two female characters (preferably named),
• Who talk to each other,
• About something other than a man

Nothing about a relationship, positive or negative (it's why certain movies pass even though they really shouldn't, with some side character Ashley saying to main character Becky in her one of two lines that she likes her shirt and then Ashley will never appear in the movie again, but Hey! It still passed the test!!!1!1), so any named female characters interactions to one another about not a man count, like Dinah and Felicity, Thea and Felicity, and even Thea and Susan.

The sexy lamp test is whether you can take a female character out of a scene and replace her with a lamp without changing the scene or the plot, measuring her relevance and character autonomy. Same with the Mako Mori Test, which tests a female character's ability to have an arc. Technically, ideal works should pass all 3 of the tests, but a lot of people just focus on the Bechdel test or just drop testing it after it just fails that one (ex: Gravity doesn't pass the Bechdel test, but passes the Sexy Lamp and the Mako Mori test, arguably way more important ones). Arrow actually passed the Sexy Lamp test a lot and has even arguably passed the Mako Mori test a few times, but might be bogged down by not passing the most superficial test. It should pass all three, and sure I would want more interactions between the female characters, but I don't think it's great to base works on only one test.

 

ETA: Wow, I feel bad, I forgot about Felicity and Alena's interactions. Most of them count, and actually make 511 actually pass all 3 tests, wow.

Edited October 19, 2017 by way2interested

[statsgirl]

You're absolutely right about Felicity and Alena. How could I have forgotten that?

Thanks for explaining about the other two tests. Those are interesting metrics.

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks for the explanation of the 3 tests. I've always found the criteria of the Bechdel test to be too vague. Great in concept but, to vague to be of value

[Mellowyellow]

That long awaited kiss list made me a bit sad that I missed out on ALL the kiss speculation you guys must have gone through while waiting!

Was it good? Did Twitter go mental? Did you get spoiled before they kissed? Did you all prowl around forever waiting for them to kiss just like we have been doing with other developments?

Did you go mental over the S2 cut kiss?

I wish I was part of fandom for S3!!!!!!!!! 

[Morrigan2575]

36 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Was it good? Did Twitter go mental?

For 301, yes and yes

Quote

Did you get spoiled before they kissed?

Yes CW Promo People spoiled the kiss before the episode

Quote

Did you all prowl around forever waiting for them to kiss just like we have been doing with other developments?

 

Not really, 223 ended with a hint something might happen and the EPs were very upfront that Olicity would have a date in 301 but, that happiness wouldn't last. I don't really think people were impatient for a kiss, most were excited for the date and annoyed that most of the early flirtatious stuff was done for screen. 

Quote

Did you go mental over the S2 cut kiss?

IIRC We were spoiled for that by Canadagraphs, so we knew something happened beyond the ILY fakeout.

When everyone got the cut kiss I think most of Fandom was happy it was cut because it didn't fit, since it was fakeout (really, not really).

[Mellowyellow]

Thanks @Morrigan2575!

I feel better that I didn't miss out on weeks of happy happy joy joy speculation! 

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Thanks @Morrigan2575!

I feel better that I didn't miss out on weeks of happy happy joy joy speculation! 

You did miss out, just not for the kiss. You missed out on the joy, excitement spoiled, anticipated drive off into the sunset. That was a lot of fun, innocent non Arrow watcher/pap happens to catch them filming the drive off into the sunset scene and becomes an instant Arrow Fandom celeb.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Mellowyellow]

Damn!!! You must have all gone mental with excitement!!!!!

So this person didn't even watch Arrow? Did he just post a photo up hoping it would shed some light for someone? 

[Lily-n11]

Oh, Andy. I remember Andy. He was the hero we deserved.

[Morrigan2575]

29 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Damn!!! You must have all gone mental with excitement!!!!!

So this person didn't even watch Arrow? Did he just post a photo up hoping it would shed some light for someone? 

He was out for a jog on that road, never watched Arrow. Saw the production sign and tweeted about want he saw. Fandom caught on freaked out, started tweeting him questions,etc. I think he went back and got a camera to try and take some pics (can't remember). 

He didn't watch Arrow and didn't know anyone, all he said IIRC, was a guy and blond lady driving a Porsche down a road around sunset.

People started asking who was the blond? Sending him photos of EBR to ask if it was her. 

It was all very exciting and fun and sparked a few weeks of anticipation.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Was it good? Did Twitter go mental? Did you get spoiled before they kissed? Did you all prowl around forever waiting for them to kiss just like we have been doing with other developments?

Yeah, the kiss was spoiled. I wanna say it was spoiled by an international affiliate but I can't be sure. Also, the kiss that was spoiled was a little bit different than the one that aired. You can see Felicity saying "Oliver" here and starts to hold on to his arm. That's not the version that aired. 

[bijoux]

Petition to get all kisses that were aired in the promos but not in episodes themselves?

[lemotomato]

5 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Damn!!! You must have all gone mental with excitement!!!!!

So this person didn't even watch Arrow? Did he just post a photo up hoping it would shed some light for someone? 

Here's the spoiler and speculation thread during that time. We were in the middle of 320 and end-of-the-season speculation frenzy and then Andy the jogger tweeted what he saw and got noticed by the fandom. Here's Andy's tweet.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Yeah, the kiss was spoiled. I wanna say it was spoiled by an international affiliate but I can't be sure. Also, the kiss that was spoiled was a little bit different than the one that aired. You can see Felicity saying "Oliver" here and starts to hold on to his arm. That's not the version that aired. 

I remember everyone thinking how happy they looked in this kiss and the the actual kiss was perfectly heartbreaking.

[Soulfire]

2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Here's the spoiler and speculation thread during that time. We were in the middle of 320 and end-of-the-season speculation frenzy and then Andy the jogger tweeted what he saw and got noticed by the fandom. Here's Andy's tweet.

Thanks for linking us to this! It was great to go back and re-read and remember. Put a big grin on my face. 

[Mellowyellow]

Thanks so much @lemotomato! It's like I was there with you all! In spirit! Before I reached my destiny as a hard core Olicity shipper! 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm probably overthinking this but what exactly would have been confusing for William about Oliver & Felicity's relationship?

Felicity keeps using the word confusing when talking about the situation ... like here

And then right after Oliver gives her the key to his apartment, she asks "Won't this be confusing for William?"

I'm not sure exactly what's supposed to be confusing ... that Oliver would have a girlfriend? William knows Oliver and his mom aren't a thing. So, what am I missing?

[Midnight Lullaby]

11 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I'm probably overthinking this but what exactly would have been confusing for William about Oliver & Felicity's relationship?

Felicity keeps using the word confusing when talking about the situation ... like here

And then right after Oliver gives her the key to his apartment, she asks "Won't this be confusing for William?"

I'm not sure exactly what's supposed to be confusing ... that Oliver would have a girlfriend? William knows Oliver and his mom aren't a thing. So, what am I missing?

I guess they were afraid he could think they were trying to replace his mom?

IMO it would have made more sense to introduce Oliver’s closest friends that are also Oliver’s family gradually..also because he introduced Raisa that is the nanny in this scenario but she isn’t a stranger, she is someone Oliver cares about..maybe they would have done that with Thea if she was awake. But anyway I would have had Felicity, Diggle and Lance over for an informal dinner to make William feel he is part of Oliver’s life in that aspect too while in one episode having Felicity and William meet and give her a key to the apartment didn’t feel completely right to me. Cute scenes of course, nothing to say about that but I guess I didn’t love the timing of the whole thing.

[lemotomato]

I thought the key to his apartment was more symbolic of how Oliver is ready to go public with their relationship, not that he's inviting Felicity to move in.

[way2interested]

I think it's that Oliver and Felicity only vaguely know what they are, so blending in potential romantic aspects of their relationship might throw perceptions off for a traumatized kid while you're trying to set up stability for him. Like, if Oliver and Felicity were actively dating/vocal about their new budding romance, it would be kind of hard to explain to a kid who Felicity is in his life without being confusing or personal (ex: if she's a friend, why are they dating? If they're in a relationship, how serious is it? Is she going to be part of his parenting? What is she related to William? Are they getting married at any point? Given their history, what if they break up again? etc.). So to avoid the questions and problems with stability, Oliver and Felicity just avoided it.

Oliver giving a key to Felicity could be confusing to the extent of blurring boundaries and previously set-up lifestyle (which only had about 5-6 months to settle) but Oliver's recognizing that the confusion doesn't matter because ultimately Felicity is good for his and William's lives and that he wants Felicity to be a bigger part of that now going forward and that they'll be going forward with their relationship.

[Midnight Lullaby]

It’s not about moving in..I would have preferred the story written and especially showed more gradually..have Felicity meet William a few times as a friend or someone important to Oliver in a couple of episodes then have Oliver go to Felicity like he did in this last one. I would have liked more scenes leading to this moment..

[SmallScreenDiva]

31 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

one episode having Felicity and William meet and give her a key to the apartment didn’t feel completely right to me.

I got the sense Felicity and William had met before given that Oliver didn't even go with her to introduce her to William. And yeah, I would have liked to have seen at least a scene with Felicity & William interacting before this but Arrow doesn't write scenes unless it's plot related (unless of course it's Tinah, because we can just hang around watch her be judgmental all day apparently ... sorry, went off a different tangent there).

Thanks @way2interested ... that helps. I'm still "ugh" with it but it helps settle it in my head :) 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I find your tangent on point instead, lol. They add scenes like Dinah looking for an apartment so I feel like I can complain about scenes I would have liked to see and to me would have added something to the story..?

Edited November 1, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby