Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[poetgirl925]

The more I think about it, the more I think they never had so much as a 5 episode plan for Laurel, much less a long term plan. They've done pretty well with Oliver's story, and the evolution of Team Arrow has been brilliant. We've seen a journey with Diggle, Quentin, Thea, and Moira. They've managed to develop Felicity (a character with no backstory.) They even fit a very believable journey for Sara into this season. (I won't count the finale because Sara's journey derailed here to make room for Laurel.) And then there's Laurel. I'm watching S1 again now, and she's really no different than she was then. None of her relationships with people have changed significantly. She's mad, she's not mad - that's it. They don't take the time to explore moments that would make her relevant, not even with her returned-from-the-dead sister. They take it back to Oliver and derail her journey even further. I guess I understand why KC says they're soul mates - that's what she has to believe to play this character, I guess? SA seems to know better, though he's careful in interviews.

I think they came up with their backstory and then wanted to bring Sara back (not the original plan.) That's why things are not clear. But honestly, when we take it all together, I figure Oliver and Sara were running around together before she got on the Gambit. Did the writers consider how that was going to shoot the L/O pairing full of holes? Every time they add to Oliver's backstory, it makes the idea of Laurel and Oliver worse and worse. He thought about her for 5 years? Yeah - no. We had Shado and Sara on the island - he and Sara seemed to have at least an emotional connection. At this point we're only two years into his backstory. He has a baby mama, also from his time with Laurel. Based on Sara and the baby mama, there's little doubt he cheated other times as well.

As for Isabel, I took that to be classic comic!Ollie as it was happening. He was getting out of there on time - he wasn't going to let it slow him down. But I think the writers just used it to get to that big Olicity scene at the end, and Oliver didn't sleep with Isabel again, possibly out of respect for Felicity's opinion on the matter. It seemed like Felicity made him take a hard look at himself there - it was almost a comment on past Screwing Around Ollie and that he's better than that now. I agree that they'll have to tone down Oliver's sex life in the present because after the finale, I'm buying that he has an emotional connection with Felicity - a strong one. He may not realize exactly what his feelings mean yet, and he may not know what to do about them, but he's far more aware than I thought he was. Therefore, it makes sense to have sexy times in flashback, but it blows more holes in the 'I thought about you for 5 years' stuff we got from Oliver to Laurel in S1. They've essentially retconned their S1 OTP, so I have some hope they'll be willing to let it go eventually.

Edited July 1, 2014 by poetgirl925

[poetgirl925]

The setup of crusading lawyer for Laurel should have worked, but IMO it got sacrificed on the altar of her back and forth relationship with The Hood/Oliver. We never saw her do much, and what we did see her do was only successful because The Hood helped her. I always thought having her work in the Glades was a good idea - it just never really went anywhere. She began to annoy me a lot less when her relationship with Tommy changed because it was growth for her character and she had more likeable scenes, but by then she was doing less than before. Then Laurel's relationship with Tommy, arguably the only positive thing she had going at the end of S1, was sacrificed to push Oliver's story forward. And because it's hard to believe she really loved Tommy, no one buys into her depression in S2. Her relationship with Sara could have made her relatable but that was sacrificed to make room for Laurel/Oliver. The hallway argument with L/O is one example, and her going to Oliver rather than Sara once she figures out their vigilante identities is another.

It's definitely true they've thrown a lot of stuff out there to try and 'fix' Laurel (as per the entire thread dedicated to her personal train wreck.) I just don't think the overall story and various relationships have been used wisely where she's concerned. And yes, there are definitely other problems with Laurel, but a good many of them come back to Oliver and how he ends up derailing her journey. The 'Lauriver' moments really add nothing for either character, especially in S2, but it's usually Laurel coming out on the worst end of them. Removing her from the various romantic entanglements and giving her real agency in her other relationships might have helped. The only relationship I've really bought into with her is the one she has with Quentin.

Edited July 1, 2014 by poetgirl925

[fantique]

 

No one mortal gets to sleep with The Wall .... she shows affection to the processors that Felicity was salivating over ...

Oliver Queen is no more than a blip on Amanda Waller's radar.

 

From your mouth to the TPTB's ears...

 

Even Laurel's relationship with Quentin was basically her being the bratty daughter who is pissed at her dad for not letting her party.

[Danny Franks]

About Oliver getting together with Sara after "it's better to not be with someone I could really care about", I'll say again that I really, really don't think physical safety had anything at all to do with Oliver's reasoning. It just doesn't make sense, given that Oliver's nighttime activities had never endangered a woman he was with (you could argue McKenna, but she was a cop anyway, and Helena was a criminal, with or without Oliver). The difficulties Oliver has engaging with his emotions and opening up, and the disaster that his relationship with Laurel was? Those are the things that should make him scared of being with someone he cares about. Being a crappy boyfriend who hurts the person he loves because he can't be the person that the girl needs.

 

So Felicity is not a good romantic option for him, because Oliver knows her as an emotionally healthy young woman who has some self esteem issues and deserves a good guy who will be a great boyfriend. Oliver doesn't think he can be those things. But Sara is as emotionally screwed up as Oliver himself, and I don't think Oliver really considered hurting her through his behaviour as a big issue. She knows him well, she knows what to expect from him, and so there was so much less pressure on him, in that relationship. It makes complete sense to me. It fits everything we've seen from Oliver, over two seasons, and it fits the dynamic that Oliver and Felicity have. He's not scared of exposing her to physical danger, and it's happened often enough. He's shown that he trusts her, and he trusts his ability to protect her. But I think he'd be terrified of hurting her himself, and the only way he could do that is emotionally.

[Password]

@Danny Franks. I'm with you on that entire explanation. My only problem is that's not exactly how they tried to sell that relationship. Everyone and their mama could tell...well I don't really know what Sara and Oliver's relationship was. I don't know if the EPs were afraid to allow that relationship to be something other than "loving" but Oliver's strange, stalker-like behaviour in ep 13 was out of left field. Not to mention that very odd scene in Suicide Squad where he opened up to her was...well, odd. The unfortunate problem with their relationship was his "because of the life that I lead" speech seemed null and void. Unless he decided to take Felicity's advice. I just wish it would've played out in the manner you describe instead of what we got.

 

SA's explanation of their sudden relationship just served to annoy me.

Edited July 1, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[KirkB]

See, maybe it's just me, but I figured Oliver and Sara getting back together was just two broken, lonely people seeking comfort in one another. They didn't have a great epic love any more than he and Laurel did (despite what KC and the EP's try to sell us), they were together in the first place because she thought he was hot and he was never one to turn down a good time. It's the same basic thing with him and Helena except they didn't have the history to fall back on that him and Sara did. As for Isabel, well again, even post island Ollie isn't going to turn down a good time, plus I imagine there was a little recon involved there as well. I can't fathom the Oliver and Laurel relationship at all. Even if Laurel's main drive at the time was boosting her own status by dating/marrying a billionaire I don't understand why she would choose Oliver instead of Tommy since while both of them were womanizers Oliver was far, far worse and much more likely to embarrass her by getting caught cheating on her in public. Maybe it was just because she, like Sara, thought he was hot and would look better with her in the paper?

[fantique]

Bringing this over from the relationship thread

 

you know what makes me bitter? Katie Cassidy telling everyone that she is gonna join team arrow!

I mean have we not had enough of her bratty self when she was throwing glasses at her family, calling her sister a bitch (flashback), being a total diva to her dad when he was trying to help and knowing Ollie to the bones but now she has to come and ruin the team dynamics in the lair?

I don't see her getting along with Diggle at all! Felicity and Roy may tolerate her but Diggle would not. Diggle is just not the type who would tolerate a drama queen!

I am looking forward to the new dynamics in the team. Although Dig getting a baby might be a pretext to get him further away and therefore not be the best Laurel repellant in the Arrow cave.

I am wondering how Oliver's commoner status (if it lasts) will affect the team. That would mean they can't just get away from their jobs anymore since their boss is not Oliver. Also there was some noise about the Arrow being seen more as a hero than a vigilante by the City and a joint task force with SCPD. So that will also change the stakes because each individual in the team will be able to have external support.

[dtissagirl]

My biggest problem with Sara/Oliver is not Oliver's motivation, it's Sara's.

 

In S1 when Dinah thought Sara was alive, her exact line was "but she said she was in love and she had to follow her heart, even if nobody else thought it was right." I guess it's easy to dismiss Sara's feelings for Oliver way back then, but if I take Dinah at face value [and I tend to because she was confessing a terrible secret she kept for years], then Sara got into the Gambit because she loved Oliver. This has been all but forgotten in S2 -- there was that line about Laurel ~stealing Oliver from Sara, but that was it.
 
I get why Oliver wanted to be with Sara in present-time. He was single, and lonely, she was familiar, she knew his secret, she can take care of herself in a fight, etc. But I have a much harder time seeing why Sara would ever want a relationship with Oliver again. Is she still in love with him? Her relationship with Nyssa makes me think no, she isn't. She knows it will hurt Laurel. [And Quentin too, even.] Hooking up in the end of 213? That I totally buy -- she had almost died, her sister had just thrown her out, and she needed the release. But for the life of me I cannot buy that Sara would want to legit date Oliver,  and that's because the writing of the show never went there. I know we're supposed to see everything from Oliver's POV, but what bugs me is how much Sara turned into plot fodder. Her being with Oliver has nothing to do with her organic character development. Sara is hooking up with Oliver because she's the plot-device they needed to make Laurel snap. To put a halting stop to Felicity/Oliver. To set up the shocking ILY in the finale. But Sara/Oliver is not at all about Sara. And that is terrible writing.

Edited July 1, 2014 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

Since fairly early in s1, Oliver has wanted to connect with other people and not wanted to connect because of who he had turned into, a person who couldn't afford to let others in because he was so broken and fixated in his mission and someone who might hurt anyone who did get too close   He tried to open up to Helena and ended up not only being shot down (because he'd been in love with Laurel before? WTH?) and then had her hurt someone close to him.  He tried with Laurel when he thought his mission would be over only to have his best friend die.  So while part of him is telling Felicity "Keep away, I'm toxic", another part really wanted to connect and he thought he could do that with Sara who could understand him the way only Helena could before and yet who was someone he could trust, unlike Helena and maybe Isabel.

 

Like Oliver, I think Sara wanted to go home again (as she said in League of Assasins).  She wanted to be close to her parents, and Laurel, and have the old life back. While she never could, being with Oliver and fighting with him was probably the closest thing she felt she could get to it.  From Sara's reactions when Oliver was stunned at the idea of them living together, and her breaking up with him at the end of the episode and saying that he needed someone with more light, I got the impression that she really did care about  him, maybe loved him, and that she had wanted it to be a real relationship whereas for Oliver it was comfort and a warm body next to his.

 

I don't think Felicity would be hurt to find out "it's better to not be with someone I could really care about," was just a line, because I honestly don't think she even considered that Oliver could be talking about HER when he said it. I think the only time she ever even thought it was possible was when he told her he loved her, which she now thinks was a lie.

I agree that she didn't think of herself as someone Oliver could be talking about.  But that's what he told her, and when she found that he was with Sara, it made a lie of it.  

 

I'm not sure how to explain it so I'll give an example. Back in high school, a friend of mine told me that she couldn't invite me to her confirmation because it wasn't going to be in English and she couldn't ask anyone who didn't speak her language.  I later found out that she had invited some other uni-lingual English speaking friends from our class to come and I was really hurt.  Not so much because she didn't invite me but because she lied to me.  She didn't care enough about me or our friendship to tell me the truth.  (She could have said "I can only invite two people and I knew them first".)  I never really trusted what she said after that and it ruined the relationship.

 

Felicity trusted Oliver completely when it came to their relationship. She was even willing to leave her IT job to be his PA. The show is probably never going to go there (although I'd love it to if Felicity starts dating someone else) but I can't see she could have felt as close to or as trusting of  him after realizing he had lied to her.

Edited July 1, 2014 by statsgirl

[icandigit]

I think they were trying to retcon the Sara was in love thing from S1 or totally forgot about it and missed the ball. I really just thought she always liked Oliver and wanted to hook up with him. Now she had her chance. Laurel was gonna hate her anyway so might as well go for hers.

[statsgirl]

 I can't fathom the Oliver and Laurel relationship at all. Even if Laurel's main drive at the time was boosting her own status by dating/marrying a billionaire I don't understand why she would choose Oliver instead of Tommy since while both of them were womanizers Oliver was far, far worse and much more likely to embarrass her by getting caught cheating on her in public. Maybe it was just because she, like Sara, thought he was hot and would look better with her in the paper?

Oliver was the alpha guy, the hotshot who led, while Tommy was the follower, the Type B who wanted a good time but also worried that he would hurt the other person.  I can see Tommy being Oliver's wing man because he could get the girls that Oliver didn't have room for.

 

Laurel always went for the high status things.

[Password]

I agree that she didn't think of herself as someone Oliver could be talking about.  But that's what he told her, and when she found that he was with Sara, it made a lie of it.  

 

 

If Felicity didn't feel it was a lie, I as a viewer felt like it was. That's why SA's comments just anger me somewhat because it's made of snot and nonsense. If you say you can't be with someone you care about, then get together with someone you obviously care about, what am I supposed to think? Whilst Felicity may not have felt she was the someone better, it still would've hurt because she likes Oliver. When you see someone you like with someone else, it hurts. And I hurt for Felicity.

[Danny Franks]

If Felicity didn't feel it was a lie, I as a viewer felt like it was. That's why SA's comments just anger me somewhat because it's made of snot and nonsense. If you say you can't be with someone you care about, then get together with someone you obviously care about, what am I supposed to think? Whilst Felicity may not have felt she was the someone better, it still would've hurt because she likes Oliver. When you see someone you like with someone else, it hurts. And I hurt for Felicity.

 

SA's comments are not canon. They're his interpretation of a particular moment, and perhaps an interpretation that he came up with on the spot, when asked the question. The fact that Oliver feels like he can't be with Felicity makes complete sense to me. Of course he feels that. He knows how messed up he is, he's said before that he can't be happy, he pushed Laurel away and encouraged her and Tommy. This is how he thinks. Felicity is too good for him. If Oliver was ever pressed on the issue, I'm am convinced that is what he would say. Noble BS is standard for a guy like him, and standard for most TV characters caught up in any kind of unrequited/unfulfilled/yearning/star-crossed/whatever love story.

 

I don't think Felicity has been particularly hurt because she's never believed she was an option for him. Never. Until Unthinkable. Even when she asked "why [isabel]?", I don't think she truly saw herself as an alternative. I think the idea of 'if Oliver just wants hot sex, I could do that' did cross her mind, but I very much doubt she could go through with that and not need it to be more (I doubt he could either, for that matter). I don't think she ever saw herself as competition for Laurel, or for Sara. What Sara was to her, in my view, was a more general threat as the new girl who could kick ass, look great, run the salmon ladder and do all manner of sciencey stuff that had previously been Felicity's territory. The fact that she was also sleeping with Oliver was, in my view, almost inconsequential alongside the rest of it. For Felicity, at least.

 

I also don't think Oliver lied to Felicity at the end of 2x06. Because I think he said them with Felicity in mind, and I think it's absolutely true for him that he can't be with Felicity. Sara, as I've said, is another matter entirely. I think those words are as true now as they were then, when it comes to Felicity Smoak. And that's where the show will try to get lots of angsty mileage in season 3.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Danny Franks

[statsgirl]

 

I also don't think Oliver lied to Felicity at the end of 2x06. Because I think he said them with Felicity in mind, and I think it's absolutely true for him that he can't be with Felicity.

I agree. When he said it, it was the truth and given what SA has said in interviews, it's still the truth. Oliver feels that he can't be with Felicity.

 

But because Felicity didn't apply them to herself, it's possible that she's going to interpret them as a lie when she sees him with Sara.  She heard "because of what I do, I can't be with someone I could really care about.. and so I spend my time with meaningless sex with women I don't respect" not "I can't be with you". So when she turns around and sees him with Sara, she's going to think that he lied about not being able to be with someone he cares about because it's clear he really cares about Sara.

 

Or at best, she's going to think that Oliver cares about Sara so much that he's willing to chance a relationship with her against his own rules (and that he doesn't care about Felicity herself because he wouldn't break his rule for her)..  

 

 

What Sara was to her, in my view, was a more general threat as the new girl who could kick ass, look great, run the salmon ladder and do all manner of sciencey stuff that had previously been Felicity's territory. The fact that she was also sleeping with Oliver was, in my view, almost inconsequential alongside the rest of it. For Felicity, at least.

Sara was also someone Felicity liked and admired.

 

I don't think sleeping with Oliver was inconsequential to Felicity, it never is when you've got feelings for the other person. But it was one more area where Sara kicked ass and she didn't.  Like I said, Sara was someone Oliver so cared much about, he was willing to break  his rule for her and that had to have hurt.

Edited July 1, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

 

But because Felicity didn't apply them to herself, it's possible that she's going to interpret them as a lie when she sees him with Sara.  She heard "because of what I do, I can't be with someone I could really care about.. and so I spend my time with meaningless sex with women I don't respect" not "I can't be with you". So when she turns around and sees him with Sara, she's going to think that he lied about not being able to be with someone he cares about because it's clear he really cares about Sara.

 

Yeah, she'd see it as a lie, but not as him lying to her. She'd think he was lying to himself, which would probably just make her feel for him. I mean, she knows how messed up he is, caring for him like she does she'd probably be moved by the fact that he doesn't seem to recognize that he deserves the good relationships he has (platonic or otherwise) and she'd understand how difficult it must be for him to fully recognize the depths of the feelings (also platonic or otherwise) he has for the people in his life.

 

Felicity cares about Oliver, so seeing him with another woman will probably always hurt a little, regardless of the reasons he gave her for thinking he could not/should not be in a relationship.

Edited July 2, 2014 by apinknightmare

[foreverevolving]

I am wondering how Oliver's commoner status (if it lasts) will affect the team. That would mean they can't just get away from their jobs anymore since their boss is not Oliver. Also there was some noise about the Arrow being seen more as a hero than a vigilante by the City and a joint task force with SCPD. So that will also change the stakes because each individual in the team will be able to have external support.

 

I'm thinking, and i have to say this isn't my personal original idea but i've been seeing it in many S03 AU fics and i do kind of like it, is that in present day we'll see team arrow working with ARGUS as a way to earn money or have access to other things they may need- such as Felicity computers (which i'm sure cost a good sum) and she was practically making love with that computer system when she was at argus headquarters.

this will, in my opinion, create a sort of parallel between the Hong-Kong storyline and the present day one in regards to Waller, it doesn't seem that Oliver likes her too much, he trusts her enough but... so i'm thinking being forced to work for her again will help bring up some old resentments and emotions (not romantic- maybe emotions isn't the right word but i'm drawing blank) from his part.

[BkWurm1]

Like Oliver, I think Sara wanted to go home again (as she said in League of Assasins).  She wanted to be close to her parents, and Laurel, and have the old life back. While she never could, being with Oliver and fighting with him was probably the closest thing she felt she could get to it.  From Sara's reactions when Oliver was stunned at the idea of them living together, and her breaking up with him at the end of the episode and saying that he needed someone with more light, I got the impression that she really did care about  him, maybe loved him, and that she had wanted it to be a real relationship whereas for Oliver it was comfort and a warm body next to his.

 

This expresses my thoughts about Sara perfectly.   I think until Oliver asked her to share an apartment but not move in with him, I think she thought that maybe what they had kind of fallen back into could have grown into something more than just familiarity and comfort.  Then she realized he wasn't even near to thinking of her in that way plus their complete opposite opinions on Roy.  

 

I think any strong feelings she had pre-island got pushed aside in favor of simple survival and it wasn't until she was free from the LoA and back home that she seriously considered exploring those old feelings. 

 

Felicity cares about Oliver, so seeing him with another woman will probably always hurt a little, regardless of the reasons he gave her for thinking he could not/should not be in a relationship.

 

I tend to agree.  Felicity doesn't have to think she's in any kind of real contention with anyone that Oliver is with to feel that pang at seeing him with someone else.  During Time of Death Diggle brought up that it must be hard seeing Oliver and Sara together and while she dismissed that as being the reason she was upset in that moment, she didn't dismiss it as being something she was also feeling.

 

I think if/when Felicity starts seriously seeing someone, Oliver will also feel a pang even if he does nothing to act on the feeling. 

[catrox14]

If Felicity didn't feel it was a lie, I as a viewer felt like it was. That's why SA's comments just anger me somewhat because it's made of snot and nonsense. If you say you can't be with someone you care about, then get together with someone you obviously care about, what am I supposed to think? Whilst Felicity may not have felt she was the someone better, it still would've hurt because she likes Oliver. When you see someone you like with someone else, it hurts. And I hurt for Felicity.

 

I really don't have a problem with SA's comments. 

 

He can care about Sara and Felicity in different ways.  Sara is just as damaged as he is. He cares about Sara but he doesn't have to worry about Sara.  Was there ever any real worry that Ollie and Sara would get married?  Felicity did not show an ounce of jealousy or hurt about Sara expect as it related to Arrow cave activities.  Felicity's beef with Oliver was IMO solely about Isabel and Isabel alone.  Characters do change.  It's very possible that is Oliver meant what he said to Felicity, but circumstances changed and Sara shows up in the Arrowcave and basically says, "I'm here, I have needs, and lets meet each others needs." 

 

I think Oliver is terrified of losing Felicity as his ArrowPartner so he'd rather not fall in love with her but he might not be able to help himself:).

Edited July 2, 2014 by catrox14

[Password]

Hehe I love how on this thread we talk about Oliver falling in love with her as an eventuality.

[BkWurm1]

Hehe I love how on this thread we talk about Oliver falling in love with her as an eventuality.

 

Yeah?  Your point?  ;D

[calliope1975]

Hehe I love how on this thread we talk about Oliver falling in love with her as an eventuality.

 

Well if he didn't, I'd have serious concerns about what I want in my hero. I mean, it's Felicity, come on! ;D

[TanyaKay]

Hehe I love how on this thread we talk about Oliver falling in love with her as an eventuality.

 

Lolz, they have written it like that. I mean what else will he do when he runs out of all the excuses? He has to fall in love with her - heck if his mooney faced smile on that last scene of season finale is any indication, he is halfway there already! Everyone falls in love with Felicity, Oliver is just there in line ....

[Password]

Haha everyone gets Smoaked.

[catrox14]

Well, duh, Felicity is Smoakin' Hot

[pootlus]

He has to fall in love with her - heck if his mooney faced smile on that last scene of season finale is any indication, he is halfway there already!

Heh, Oliver's goofy smile around Felicity is so cute. I just hope they (i.e. the writers) don't wreck that lightness and happiness when they do eventually 'go there'.

Everyone falls in love with Felicity, Oliver is just there in line ....

Ha.

I need to go back and watch that video of all the times Oliver has said "Felcity!".

[tv echo]

Moved to Hopes and Fears thread...

Edited July 2, 2014 by tv echo

[KirkB]

I can see working with Argus and using its resources but after the season finale (even if he did before) can Oliver really TRUST Waller?

[CabotCove]

From Sara's reactions when Oliver was stunned at the idea of them living together, and her breaking up with him at the end of the episode and saying that he needed someone with more light, I got the impression that she really did care about  him, maybe loved him, and that she had wanted it to be a real relationship whereas for Oliver it was comfort and a warm body next to his.

 

How can Oliver have been stunned when it was his idea in the first place?

 

 

Her being with Oliver has nothing to do with her organic character development. Sara is hooking up with Oliver because she's the plot-device they needed to make Laurel snap. To put a halting stop to Felicity/Oliver. To set up the shocking ILY in the finale. But Sara/Oliver is not at all about Sara. And that is terrible writing.

 

Ditto.

 

It's very possible that is Oliver meant what he said to Felicity, but circumstances changed and Sara shows up in the Arrowcave and basically says, "I'm here, I have needs, and lets meet each others needs."

 

Agree, writing inconsistencies aside, I think it can be rationalised as above. 

Edited July 2, 2014 by Conell

[CabotCove]

I agree about season 1 and back then I had no problem with it. In s2 I felt while Diggle had screentime, Felicity still had more focus in moments with Oliver.

I feel Diggle had his centric episodes to compensate for the sidelining.

Even when the season became Lance focuesd, Felicity still had her major moments with Oliver..I really haven't seen that with Diggle. 

 

Ditto. 

[statsgirl]

 

How can Oliver have been stunned when it was his idea in the first place?

His idea was to 'get a place' where they could both live, as roomies and bedmates.  Her interpretation was of 'living together', a serious relationship thing, like a try-out for marriage and that's what stunned him.

 

 

It's very possible that is Oliver meant what he said to Felicity, but circumstances changed and Sara shows up in the Arrowcave and basically says, "I'm here, I have needs, and lets meet each others needs."

But the show seemed to be saying that he was jealous of Barry in ep 10, Blast Radius.

 

Was it the circumstances that changed, or that Oliver changed his mind?  It wasn't that he didn't have feelings for anyone and then Sara arrived up and he suddenly decided that he could be with someone he really cared about. Oliver realized he had feelings for Felicity and made the decision not to act on them, in line with what he had said and then he fell into a relationship with Sara when she decided to stay in Starling City.

Edited July 3, 2014 by statsgirl

[quarks]

I think there's also another romance trope playing out here - the idea that you can't really be with the one you love For Reasons (in this case, Oliver's life, his terrible history with women, his emotional issues, and his belief that Felicity is much more interested in Barry, given that she's willing to head to another city and sit by the guy's bedside even though he's in a coma) so you try to find comfort with Someone Else only it Never Works Out.

[icandigit]

 

His idea was to 'get a place' where they could both live, as roomies and bedmates.  Her interpretation was of 'living together', a serious relationship thing, like a try-out for marriage and that's what stunned him.

I loved that scene. Oliver's brain is so weird.

[Password]

belief that Felicity is much more interested in Barry, given that she's willing to head to another city and sit by the guy's bedside even though he's in a coma) so you try to find comfort with Someone Else only it Never Works Out.

I have noticed people mention that Oliver thinks Felicity is more interested in Barry but I have never paid it that much attention. Like when Felicity walks in during Deathstroke and says the last person she told about Arrow got struck by lightening he gets this sad look on his face. I put it down to him being sad that Barry was hit by lightening. I never thought he really took that relationship to heart. Or he probably did as he said she'd be there when Barry woke up in ep 10.

[quarks]

Well, as viewers we kinda know that Barry's around for two episodes and then hopping off to his own show and love interest. But for Oliver during those two episodes and the later episodes where Barry is namedropped, what does he see/hear?  He sees Felicity and Barry clicking, Felicity trusting Barry, Felicity cheering up when Barry enters the room, Felicity telling Barry Oliver's secret (which seems to be the big one), and then Felicity willing to head over on a fairly frequent basis to sit by the side of a guy in a coma. None of this suggests that Felicity and Barry are dating, but it does suggest that she'd be willing to go out with him, and from Oliver's viewpoint Barry probably seems a lot less emotionally messed up.  And Oliver wasn't around when Felicity was told about Iris (and that was after Oliver started sleeping with Sara anyway.)  It's not as if Felicity has ever come out and said, "Pretend I speak Russian and bang me, Oliver!" and Oliver has a gift for misreading people.

[Password]

 It's not as if Felicity has ever come out and said, "Pretend I speak Russian and bang me, Oliver!" and Oliver has a gift for misreading people.

I don't know if you meant this as a joke, but it really made me laugh.

[dtissagirl]

It's not as if Felicity has ever come out and said, "Pretend I speak Russian and bang me, Oliver!" and Oliver has a gift for misreading people.

 

HAHAHA.

 

But on the contrary,  Felicity has even gone as far as telling Barry she doesn't have feelings for Oliver. Of course neither Barry nor the audience buys it, but she is definitely lying to herself, not lying to Barry/the audience.

 

Looking at Felicity/Oliver from a romance tropes standpoint, they've gone through a whole bunch of them between 201-209. Felicity both denies her feelings and thinks Oliver would never be interested in her, hence her interest in Barry. Oliver represses his feelings "because of the life that I lead" and believes he doesn't deserve someone like Felicity/she deserves someone better than him; he's annoyed by/jealous of Barry while also thinking Felicity is better off with someone like Barry.

 

I like to think TPTB didn't realize they were writing the first act of a typical romantic comedy until it was too late. And then they messed up so hard in trying to halt their relationship development, that not only the majority of the audience got super annoyed, but also it didn't phase ANYONE with regards to liking Felicity/Oliver -- everyone just kept 'shipping them anyway. 

[Password]

I really do wonder what the EPs think when they let Oliver and Felicity hit these romantic beats. It annoys me. Am I to accept they'll end up seeing how terrible they are together? Ridiculous.

Edited July 3, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Happy Harpy]

But on the contrary,  Felicity has even gone as far as telling Barry she doesn't have feelings for Oliver. Of course neither Barry nor the audience buys it, but she is definitely lying to herself, not lying to Barry/the audience.

I wonder whether she realized/admitted she might have more of than a "crush" on him at this point. Because when in the end, on the phone, Barry tells her "if you decide that Oliver Queen isn't the guy for you", the lady didn't protest too much...the lady didn't protest at all.

Aaand, it's 2x09, "the hug" episode. It would make imo even more sense for Felicity to hug Oliver if she was still reeling from her recently discovered feelings.

 

I don't know if it was made consciously, and with the unfortunate  change of focus from 2x10 on...well. But yeah, I find it funny to imagine that Barry was supposed to be an impediment and ended up as a catalyst, as if "Oliver/Felicity" sneaked up and found a way to be written anyway.

[foreverevolving]

I wonder whether she realized/admitted she might have more of than a "crush" on him at this point. Because when in the end, on the phone, Barry tells her "if you decide that Oliver Queen isn't the guy for you", the lady didn't protest too much...the lady didn't protest at all.

that's because he wasn't talking with her during that scene, i'm pretty sure he was leaving a voicemail.

[Happy Harpy]

that's because he wasn't talking with her during that scene, i'm pretty sure he was leaving a voicemail.

Nope, she answers in real time and they interact (her answer is actually "good to know").

[icandigit]

I was skimming the vertigo related episodes. I didn't appreciate the significance before with count vertigo and O/F. In vertigo they get the cute sports bottle scene. In Unfinished Business its Oliver being all grr about not having killed the count in the first place and then later lets him live. And then State v. Queen where he admits not killing was the right thing and then ends up killing him in the end. I really love how the O/F relationship is not just about the romance element but really connected to the themes of the show. It's just a really cool aspect of their relationship that I adore.

[foreverevolving]

Nope, she answers in real time and they interact (her answer is actually "good to know").

you're right! i had to go and check the clip. for some reason i remembered it differently.

[BkWurm1]

Got around to acquiring the season 1 episodes again.  I found my rewatch of the first episode very interesting.  Most of my first impressions remain the same but I realized something with Laurel.  I was rooting for her and Tommy as a couple before the first episode ever ended.  I wrote it up in the Pilot thread as well - this is the part that applies to the Tommy and Laurel relationship

I remembered that there was something at the end that made me a little bit excited about her character and was really surprised to realize it was the Tommy/Laurel scene when her cute friend came to her work to see her.

 

Through the whole episode Laurel had been this serious, hard, disapproving, brittle, angry (rightly so) character and then suddenly she's looking cute in her red coat, smiling and relaxed and walking and flirting with Tommy.  Her whole demeanor changes when he brings up that they'd been together.  She calls it a lapse and he teases about it being a lot of lapses in his place and at her place and at....she smiles and laughs and Tommy talks about becoming a one woman man and Laurel looks light and young and I realize now, this is the exact moment I started shipping Tommy and Laurel.

 

Very

First

Episode

 

They were so cute together.  It was the only time Laurel was happy and in that moment when Tommy says her whole name, I could believe that this person could become BC.  I saw more confidence and heart in that one scene than I remember seeing anytime since.

 

 

 

I was super surprised that the set up for Laurel and Tommy was put there right from the start.  It's like the show runners had no intention of ever putting Laurel and Oliver together. 

[statsgirl]

I wonder if one of the reasons Tommy seemed so much better for Laurel is because SA was playing Oliver as closed off and PTSD'd in the pilot and early episodes, and Tommy was fun and engaging, someone who lightened up the angry and obsessive Laurel.  Opposites work better as romantic partners on TV; I can see why someone coming to the show not having read the comics would see Tommy, who drops in on Laurel and tales her out for a break and makes her smile, would be a better romantic choice for her than Oliver.

 

 

It's like the show runners had no intention of ever putting Laurel and Oliver together.

If that were true, they would have saved me from a lot of frustration as Laurel bounced back and forth between wanting Oliver and not wanting him, loving him and hating him.  Such a waste of showtime and my anxiety as I dreaded the Oliver would end up with Laurel.

 

I wonder what made them decide it had to be Tommy that was killed off to trigger the next stage of Oliver's journey.

 

 

I find it funny to imagine that Barry was supposed to be an impediment and ended up as a catalyst, as if "Oliver/Felicity" sneaked up and found a way to be written anyway.

I think they were promoting Barry as an 'impediment' because Felicity was interested in another guy (as if!) and a catalyst because Oliver got jealous and Diggle pointed it out to him.  Most fanfic do it better.

[calliope1975]

I wonder if one of the reasons Tommy seemed so much better for Laurel is because SA was playing Oliver as closed off and PTSD'd in the pilot and early episodes, and Tommy was fun and engaging, someone who lightened up the angry and obsessive Laurel.  Opposites work better as romantic partners on TV; I can see why someone coming to the show not having read the comics would see Tommy, who drops in on Laurel and tales her out for a break and makes her smile, would be a better romantic choice for her than Oliver.

 

That's exactly why I ship Olicity. Felicity lightens up Oliver which he desperately needs. Laurel could have been that character but I think the sister swapping ruined that dynamic before it could even begin.

[BkWurm1]

It's like the show runners had no intention of ever putting Laurel and Oliver together.

 

If that were true, they would have saved me from a lot of frustration as Laurel bounced back and forth between wanting Oliver and not wanting him, loving him and hating him.  Such a waste of showtime and my anxiety as I dreaded the Oliver would end up with Laurel.

 

What I meant to say is the show shot themselves in the foot.  Not only did they give me reason on reason why Oliver was a terrible and toxic choice for Laurel (and really, her for him too since she didn't make him better or happier) but they also gave me a much better romantic interest for Laurel right from the start. 

 

Then as the show goes on and Tommy becomes a better and better character and his loss and Oliver and Laurel's betrayal of him only makes them as couple that much more impossible for me to ever buy into. 

 

These aren't little bumps in the road.  These are gale force weather reasons why two people should NEVER be together and the show is the one that keeps handing me these reasons and it's been doing it from day one. 

[wonderwall]

I found an interesting parallel (which I never really noticed whilst watching the show) right here.

 

I showed this to a person who'd never really watched the show and asked her (for kicks) which one she thought was Oliver's love interest and she pointed to Felicity. It actually really shows in how Amell acts around EBR and KC. You see with Felicity's scene, Oliver's eyes never leave hers and they always linger on her. That scene is so much more softer in terms of acting and ambiance. And even though they're not touching, you can actually FEEL the intimacy between them.

 

Whereas, with the Laurel scene, Amell seems to be acting as though he's a little more tense, he never meets KCs eyes, and he almost looks pained when she hugs him (something of which Oliver didn't reciprocate). Even ambiance wise, it's a lot darker and more intense. It just goes to show that subconsciously that SA doesn't even believe in Lauriver or else he would've made more of an effort in that scene (maybe that's why he looks uncomfortable? Because it takes a lot of effort to act with KC?) 

 

I just found this to be interesting and wanted to share!

[BkWurm1]

I didn't recognize what I was looking at at first. It took a minute for the motion to kick in and while my screen was frozen, I thought at first I was looking at two similar Felicity and Oliver scenes and I was horrified how unhappy And uncomfortable And unnatural Oliver was on the left side. I was for a split second doubting why I thought Olicity had such a strong chance. Then I figured out what it was seeing.

Edited July 5, 2014 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

I dislike Laurel with the fire of 1000 suns and I want nothing to do with Lauriver. It's an interesting comparison yet I can't say that I think that tumblr is reflective of SA and KC not having chemistry( I can point too pretty much any other scene for that). I just think that is not a good compare and contrast because it lacks the context behind each conversation.

 

IMO, Amell was purposefully playing Oliver as annoyed and flustered and upset because he'd just woken up from being tranquilized and he was not with Slade. Then he looks up to his compadres and Laurel appears. I think he's confused and angry that Laurel now knows his secret and it was something he couldn't control which he takes seriously, ("It's not YOUR secret to tell. I control who knows and when").  So out of the gate he's not going to be receptive to anything Laurel has to say. And all he's hearing is that Laurel knows him better than anyone and he's just like WTF are you even talking about and at the same time, he doesn't want to be cruel to Laurel.

 

And IMO that is exactly how Amell should have played. IMO any other reaction showing that he cares what Laurel thinks like he cares what Felicity thinks would have been ridiculous. But I can't actually put that one down to bad chemistry. IMO it was acting choices to show a lack of connection.

[FAU]

 

If that were true, they would have saved me from a lot of frustration as Laurel bounced back and forth between wanting Oliver and not wanting him, loving him and hating him.  Such a waste of showtime and my anxiety as I dreaded the Oliver would end up with Laurel.

 

I wonder what made them decide it had to be Tommy that was killed off to trigger the next stage of Oliver's journey.

 

Most likely as a prop for Oliver's angst and whatever storyline to give for Laurel to angst about for a while before her stupid addiction subplot kicked in.  Him getting killed off for stupid Laurel staying in a collapsing building is what made me started to hate her and S2 only made it that much easier.