Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[quarks]

I feel Diggle had his centric episodes to compensate for the sidelining.

 

 

I originally thought it was more a recognition that Diggle's a pretty universally popular character and an attempt to capitalize on that, but according to DC sources, it was to test out the possibility of a Suicide Squad spinoff and to see if Diggle could potentially anchor his own show or mini-run or litt But your explanation makes sense too. Maybe it was all three?

 

I don't really know who should be more important to Oliver - I guess I don't see it as a competition? - but I completely agree that Diggle and Oliver's friendship is one of the most important elements of the show and should continue to be a focus. And I am not just saying that because Diggle looks great shirtless. (Ok, I am sorta saying that because Diggle looks great shirtless. But I also have less superficial reasons, honestly!)

[Password]

That's really the only positive that came from the Lance drama, Felicity and Diggle still maintained their team status. Honestly it felt like the partnership disintegrated when Sara joined the team because it became Sara and Oliver "leading" whilst everyone followed. And even Suicide Squad was marginalised by the drama that is Lance. I had no time for it, if they just focused on Diggle I would've been happy but Oliver wondered around very aimlessly threatening people whilst Slade played him.

 

It got to the point where I only watched for Felicity and Diggle because nothing else in the story held my interest.

[JayKay]

Even when the season became Lance focuesd, Felicity still had her major moments with Oliver..I really haven't seen that with Diggle. In my mind he should be the more important one to Oliver...obviously not from a romantic standpoint but I've always enjoyed friendships on tv shows anyways. 

I do understand what you mean, and I think it's just typical CW treatment of protagonists and their love interests. Diggle's there, as badass and reliable as ever, but there's just been a little... shift in the directing. For example, there's a close up of a hand on a shoulder instead of on Diggle's expression/reaction to whatever prompted the shoulder pat. He's right in the fray of the big action-packed set pieces, but when Team Arrow regroups after the stunt and effects budgets have been blown, he's off in the background doing Arrowcave things. Small occurrences like that are innocuous enough on their own but season two made a bit of a habit of it.

 

When it comes to romantic tension (or whatever you want to call it) between two members of a three part team being handled well, I think of Hardison, Parker and Eliot on a show called Leverage. It's weirdly similar - Smartass non-actiony hacker, blonde lunatic with a myriad of dangerous skills, and gruff keepin' it real ex-soldier who rolls his eyes at them. Unfortunately, I didn't see Team Arrow as having achieved the same balance in season two. There was a full team of five in Leverage's case and those three were more of a clique within it, but sometimes I felt like after an episode ended, Team Arrow hadn't "found" each other again by the time the credits rolled.

 

But as dancingnancy brought up, Sara and to an extent Roy being brought in also gave Felicity and Diggle some solid moments like the one where he was parked in front of her house. That was one of my favorite scenes of the whole season. It was something real and practical in a world of moms being run through with swords and guys getting super powers via injection. The underlying friendships are what drive my love of Team Arrow and even the quiet expressions of those friendships mean a lot because they ground the show in something relatable.

[poetgirl925]

I agree about season 1 and back then I had no problem with it. In s2 I felt while Diggle had screentime, Felicity still had more focus in moments with Oliver.

I feel Diggle had his centric episodes to compensate for the sidelining.

Even when the season became Lance focuesd, Felicity still had her major moments with Oliver..I really haven't seen that with Diggle. In my mind he should be the more important one to Oliver...obviously not from a romantic standpoint but I've always enjoyed friendships on tv shows anyways.

I don't think Diggle should be more important to Oliver than Felicity, and I don't think Felicity should be more important to Oliver than Diggle. I think they're each equally important to Oliver, and I've enjoyed watching the three of them build trust and partnership into Team Arrow. As others have said, we saw a big shift in the Felicity/Diggle friendship in S2, and I loved it. They obviously stuck together when Oliver skipped town for five months, and this is why (if well written) a Felicity/Oliver romance doesn't have to constantly sideline the team or Diggle. I'd say Diggle would be more involved since he has a solid friendship with both of them. I think we'd see more of that with Oliver + anyone else (he was certainly sidelined more when focus shifted to Oliver/Sara/Laurel.) Since this is the CW, we can't get around the romance subplots and when they happen, Diggle will likely lose focus sometimes (which I'm okay with as long as it's not a constant thing.) I mostly tune in to watch Team Arrow as a whole each week, but I like that we see how the dynamic changes when the focus is on just two (Oliver/Diggle, Diggle/Felicity, Felicity/Oliver) as well.

[icandigit]

I want to give the writers credit and say the way Oliver/Sara played out was intentional, but probably not. But, it was an accident that worked for me. Their relationship looked the way I expected it too. I think their friendship, familiarity, similar, and shared hell experience made it some comforting situation during a difficult time for both of them. I don't think it played like there was much there, because I don't think there was much there.

[Password]

It made me dislike the lead, along with the other interesting decisions he made. I doubt that was intentional because he hasn't been redeemed. Not in my eyes and that's a difficult pill to swallow because I genuinely liked him.

[dtissagirl]

 I think their friendship, familiarity, similar, and shared hell experience made it some comforting situation during a difficult time for both of them. I don't think it played like there was much there, because I don't think there was much there.

 

I would probably look at it this exact same way if Sara wasn't Laurel's sister. But then I remember Oliver slept with Sister 1 in May 2013 and Sister 2 in Feb 2014 and I kinda wanna throw up, really.

[Password]

Mhmm pretty much

[statsgirl]

I would probably look at it this exact same way if Sara wasn't Laurel's sister. But then I remember Oliver slept with Sister 1 in May 2013 and Sister 2 in Feb 2014 and I kinda wanna throw up, really.

Don't forget, it was the second time around for both. He slept with Sister 1 and Sister 2 in 2007 as well.

 

When we introduced Barry [Allen] in Episode 8 and 9, we saw a lot of people saying, “Oh, Oliver’s jealous.” I don’t know how it came across, but that certainly wasn’t the way that I was playing it. It was more curiosity about this guy and their interaction. But jealousy? Not so much.

 

HighHopes, I think it can still work out if he's talking about eps 8 and 9 when Barry Allen was introduced. I don't think the idea of jealousy was introduced until ep 10 (which was not the midseason finale as the TV Guide reporter said) when Diggle suggested that he didn't have any problems with Felicity's work until she met Barry Allen.  I'd say it wasn't until she began spending so much time in Central City and wasn't at his back and call but Diggle's way is more poetic.

 

 

"The fallout from Episode 9 carries over into the next episodes as far as the Oliver and Felicity relationship is concerned," Kreisberg continues. "Barry has had a profound effect on them, and that will carry through."

Kreisburg at any rate thinks it's jealousy.  But what does he know?

 

 

SA:  We have this Oliver/Sara thing happening now, and the immediate reaction is, “Oh, Felicity’s going to be jealous.” But Felicity’s way stronger than that. Felicity is much more interested in the overall goal of this team than the fact that Oliver and Sara might be together, and we see that in this next episode. We see Diggle say, “This must be difficult,” and her say, “Yeah, OK. Leave me alone. I’m working.” So, I think that we will see Oliver and Felicity’s relationship really solidified as partners and equals.

It's interesting .... you can see that he wants to put the brakes on the idea of it being about romance and jealousy, and emphasize that they are partners.  I appreciate that  he says that they are equals because it would be too easy to have Oliver as the Big Leader and Felicity and even Diggle as subordinates.  It gives Felicity more agency than just being a love interest, and makes for a better show IMO..

Edited June 29, 2014 by statsgirl

[Password]

They should frankly just make up their minds about the direction they want to take. It seems like they played up jealousy when it seemed fit, and partnership when it seemed fit. Then they blamed us for being confused. If Diggle says he was jealous, he was. Be it in episode 8, 9 or 10. He ended up being jealous one way or another and that's what we got from Diggle. Now what he was jealous about, Felicity spending time with Barry and not giving him the attention he needs (requires) is just plain douchery. Which I came to expect from the second half of s2 I guess.

[statsgirl]

I actually see Lyla being pregnant and a Digglet on the way as a good thing because if Oliver's kid shows up, it gives Diggle a separate storyline with Oliver that doesn't include Felicity.

 

Both Diggle and Felicity should be important to Oliver but in very different ways. And I too have always liked Diggle's friendship with Felicity, showing that he's always liked and respected her (especially when she stands up to Oliver) and is the one to take her into consideration when Oliver's off on one of his flights.  Diggle is the grounding force on the team, Felicity is the idealist and Oliver is the one who puts his head down and gets on with the job.

[statsgirl]

'Douche' is often Oliver's middle name.  Still.

 

He may have been amused by them in The Scientist and angry that his secret was revealed in Three Ghosts but Oliver didn't seem to be upset at Felicity spending time with Barry in Starling City except that he didn't want Barry in on their secret. But he was was irritated/annoyed/upset when Felicity began spending time with Barry in Central City. I don't think Oliver himself saw it as jealousy, more irritation that she wasn't there giving The Mission the attention it deserved, which is why they needed Diggle to define it as jealousy.

 

I think SA talking about the partnership and equals is about putting Felicity in a good light -- look, she's not jealous of Oliver sleeping with Sara, she's concerned with doing her job and getting the mission accomplished.

 

I have the feeling it's only going to get worse at the start of next season.  If KC is tweeting how awesome 3x01 is going to be, I can't see anything but a mess happening for Olicity.

[catrox14]

I think jealousy covers many things not just romance.   I don't think it's clear that Oliver was jealous of Barry for romantic reasons. There may have been a component of it but I don't think that was primary reason why Oliver was annoyed with Barry. I think Oliver thought he knew too much too fast about him combined with knowing that Barry was there under false pretenses set Oliver on edge. I think there was some jealousy because  Arrow reasons, not solely Oliver 'luvs' Felicity reasons.  

[Password]

I think it's very difficult to talk about possessiveness and being territorial without winking at jealousy, which is exactly what Oliver was in ep 10. That's why I say it was just Oliver's douche tendencies showing proudly. He was jealous because Felicity was spending her time and giving her attention to Barry when he needed her there. He wanted her there with him because his work was more important than staying at Barry's side.

 

But then you see SA's comments about guys not realising what they had until someone else sees or has it (don't know exactly) and it implies romantic jealousy, not professional jealousy. I think they would've phrased it differently. Or perhaps I'm seeing it through romance goggles and really Oliver just realises Felicity's importance in his life.

 

Though I stand by his "outing" Barry as a very strange move because it was so confrontational. Not just because Felicity was there, but because it seemed directed at Felicity in a "see he's a liar" kind of way. To make her see she liked a liar or some such. Haha even the way he said Barry's name made me think he didn't even believe his name is Barry (which I found funny).

Edited June 29, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[dtissagirl]

I knew I had read a quote from Amell that he confirmed was Oliver jealous of Barry/Felicity in a romantic way, so I tracked it down. It was on E!'s Spoiler Chat way back in December:

 

http://www.eonline.com/news/487017/spoiler-chat-scandal-s-sexy-new-love-interest-sons-of-anarchy-s-finale-showdown-and-more

 

Cady: I seriously need Felicity and Oliver to get together, like yesterday, on Arrow. Is there any hope?
Expect the introduction on Barry Allen, who makes his debut tonight, to have a major impact on Felicity and Oliver's relationship for the remainder of the season. "That relationship is really moving in a new direction," Stephen Amell says of the duo. "It's one of those things where, guys do this all the time, you don't realize the depths and levels of your feelings for someone until someone else likes them."

 

So in early Dec 2013 he was saying Oliver realized the depth of his feelings for Felicity because someone else liked her. But in the TV Line interview from late Feb 2014 that @HighHopes quoted above, he's saying he wasn't playing jealous.

 

I tend to believe he was jealous in Blast Radius because Diggle said so onscreen, and Dig is this show's truth-speaker. These two quotes being opposite kinda confirm to me that they had to spin it as NOT romantic in February because it looked horrible that Oliver was super jealous of Felicity/Barry 3 weeks before he hooked up with Sara.

Though I stand by his "outing" Barry as a very strange move because it was so confrontational. Not just because Felicity was there, but because it seemed directed at Felicity in a "see he's a liar" kind of way. To make her see she liked a liar or some such. Haha even the way he said Barry's name made me think he didn't even believe his name is Barry (which I found funny).

 

Oh, this, definitely. He wasn't just confronting Barry, he was outing Barry TO FELICITY. "Here's how and why you shouldn't trust this dude who is making googly eyes at you that you seem to find adorable, but LOOKIE he's a lying liar who lies!"

Edited June 29, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Password]

Oh, this, definitely. He wasn't just confronting Barry, he was outing Barry TO FELICITY. "Here's how and why you shouldn't trust this dude who is making googly eyes at you that you seem to find adorable, but LOOKIE he's a lying liar who lies!"

 

Even the guilty look on his face after Barry leaves when Oliver still says (rightly) that Barry did lie. And it's compounded by a confirmation that Felicity is into Barry because of the + 1. I so love when Felicity puts him in his place though. What did he think he was going to prove.

 

Also to be honest, people don't normally point out jealousy unless it's romantic jealousy. Imagine Diggle saying "Oliver you're jealous because Felicity's being unprofessional by staying by the bed of an unconscious guy and isn't here to fulfill her Arrow duties."

Edited June 29, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Happy Harpy]

I mostly tune in to watch Team Arrow as a whole each week, but I like that we see how the dynamic changes when the focus is on just two (Oliver/Diggle, Diggle/Felicity, Felicity/Oliver) as well.

Exactly. Team Arrow is for me a triangle where each side, meaning each relationship between two of its members,feeds the whole.

That's why for me every interaction between any two of them doesn't deprive the third of anything, but on the opposite reinforces the team.

I think everyone involved, including the writers, did a wonderful job with it and made it the true strength of the show.

 

I don't think that Diggle's relationship with Oliver was lessened in season 2A. I didn't feel that the balance was ever broken, except during the Pod People episode in 2-B. There were things that Oliver shared with Diggle and not with Felicity (what happened on the island) moments where Diggle understood Oliver better than Felicity (losing Tommy) etc...as fit, since they don't have the same relationship at all, since Diggle and Felicity don't have the same personality or experience either. I love every of the three friendships/partnerships equally, I love their complementarity and how they come together when needed but how everyone and every interaction stays unique to the characters involved.

 

That's why trying to force a new member on this team and making it a foursome is imo the sure way to break this little TV miracle. Even Sara didn't work for me when she was written as a fourth member/co-lead of sorts; she is nevertheless perfect as the sixth ranger imo, like at the very end of the season.

Roy's introduction, on the other hand, worked perfectly for me because he was always "lower case", the young padawan. Even when he disagreed or opposed them, once mirakuru'ed, at least  he respected Diggle and Felicity as important members of the team (hence is frustration with them "always agreeing" with Oliver, imo).

I agree that in spite of my love for Det.Lance, his place isn't in the Arrowcave.

As for Laurel, just no. For many reasons (unlike Sara, Diggle and Felicity, no, she doesn't know Oliver; unlike Roy, she doesn't respect Felicity and Diggle etc.) but primarily because, from what I've seen of her so far, she simply isn't a team player. She's miss Me-Myself-and-I ! As for her dismissal of Diggle/Felicity, it made one thing clear to me: She wants "Ollie and I", she thinks she has a privileged relationship with him, above the one he has with the others, whereas Diggle/Oliver/Felicity is based on equality/complementarity. Therefore, she doesn't get Team Arrow, imo she can't get Team Arrow. So she shouldn't be on Team Arrow.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[SmallScreenDiva]

Yeah, after the about-face regarding Felicity and Oliver and explanations about why Oliver/Sarah totally made sense because of their rich history on the island, I tried to stop reading EPs' interviews. Tried being the oeprative word.

 

I remember something else from those interviews -- I think it was AK who said we were going to see Oliver in a much more relaxed, light-hearted relationship, maybe see him rolling up his sleeves and cooking for his ladylove. After the initial shock over the hookup, I thought, "Oh, that could be interesting, a different facet of Oliver." But nope, we saw nothing like that -- the most light-hearted I saw O/S was when they were sparring with Diggle. Oh, and maybe the hotel scene just before they broke up.

[Morrigan2575]

Was that AK? For some reason I thought SA said that.

In either case it does make me wonder what show they were watching or just how much ended up on the cutting room floor

[Password]

If that's true they basically left the relationship on the cutting room floor. Well done.

[Danny Franks]

Oh, this, definitely. He wasn't just confronting Barry, he was outing Barry TO FELICITY. "Here's how and why you shouldn't trust this dude who is making googly eyes at you that you seem to find adorable, but LOOKIE he's a lying liar who lies!"

 

 

But even if he had no interest in Felicity at all, it would have been in Oliver's best interests to expose Barry in front of Felicity. Because Felicity did like him, and she seemed to instinctively trust him. If Oliver had exposed Barry and sent him packing, and then had to tell Felicity, it would have led to her asking questions and doubting what had happened, and perhaps trying to investigate it herself. In short, she would not have been focused where Oliver needed her to be focused.

 

Plus, the only times Oliver ever spoke to Barry were when Felicity was there, and I can't see him bothering to get Barry on his own before he confronted him. I think it's a stretch to say Oliver wanted Felicity there for personal reasons. And even looking at the writing objectively, it serves more purpose that Felicity is in the scene, because it sets up her annoyance at Oliver and him making it up to her. And it makes pathetic Barry even more sympathetic (to some. Not to me, really) that he was called out in front of the girl he likes and forced to reveal his big secret.

[apinknightmare]

 

I remember something else from those interviews -- I think it was AK who said we were going to see Oliver in a much more relaxed, light-hearted relationship, maybe see him rolling up his sleeves and cooking for his ladylove.

 

IIRC, Stephen Amell said (on Facebook maybe, during a Q&A?) that we'd see Oliver in a different kind of relationship, and a lot of people thought he was speaking about a romantic relationship, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to being a mentor for Roy.

[strikera0]

I remember something else from those interviews -- I think it was AK who said we were going to see Oliver in a much more relaxed, light-hearted relationship, maybe see him rolling up his sleeves and cooking for his ladylove. After the initial shock over the hookup, I thought, "Oh, that could be interesting, a different facet of Oliver." But nope, we saw nothing like that -- the most light-hearted I saw O/S was when they were sparring with Diggle. Oh, and maybe the hotel scene just before they broke up.

 

That wasn't AK. That was Stephen Amell at the People's Choice Awards.

[poetgirl925]

After Heir to the Demon aired, I went back and viewed Sara's other episodes because I was looking for the romantic subtext that I'd somehow missed. I never saw it; they clearly cared about each other, but Sara was more about redemption and protecting her family, which allowed me to forgive her for her prior sisterly betrayal. I really think that revisiting the Sara/Oliver relationship was planned later and required some backpedaling. In the beginning I felt it damaged both their characters, but I've come to see it as intentional character regression that allowed for some growth on both their parts.

In flashbacks we saw that Sara was having second thoughts about meeting Oliver, and she tried to talk to Laurel about Oliver's playboy ways. Laurel shut her down with a rather bitchy retort, and off Sara went. As for Oliver, my head canon is that his party boy/playboy behavior was a reaction to people pushing him into things he either wasn't sure he wanted or wasn't ready for. Laurel pushed him for more of a commitment by pushing him to move in with her, and how does he respond? He runs off with her sister. That's about as self-destructive as it gets, and subconsciously I think he wanted to blow up that relationship.

In the present they lunge at each other in similar circumstances. Sara has just had a bad scene with Laurel and Oliver has just argued with his mother. Neither of them was in a healthy spot emotionally, and they repeated old patterns. It's too deliberate not to have been a conscious move from the writers IMO. Then Sara and Oliver compounded their mistakes by attending that dinner together. That was super douchey on both their parts and while I may not like Laurel, I'd have flipped out too. Oliver lost a lot of points here by lecturing Laurel - at any other time I'd have welcomed that scene in the hallway, but I didn't like that it happened after he was sleeping with Sara again. And then Sara never apologizes for any of her part in things. And whatever else I feel about Laurel, this was one situation where she was more in the right than Sara or Oliver. I think the Sara/Oliver romance was set in motion with a specific end in mind. Sara realized some things about herself in the process. It's unclear if Oliver had similar realizations, but I'm assuming that will be explored next season. Because of this, I'm assuming the relationship was always meant to be more healing than romantic.

My basic problem with a Sara/Oliver romance (other than the fact they're too much alike) is always going to be that backstory. It forever ties them to Laurel, and I really don't want to be reminded of that backstory because I can't imagine any situation where I won't feel icked out by the fact that he's slept with both of them. Can you imagine looking at your sister's boyfriend/husband and remembering him naked? Or looking at your boyfriend/husband and remembering that he's slept with your sister. Ugh - just no! I don't have a sister, but my best friend is like my sister because we've been friends since we were five. There was a time when she liked this guy, but her problem was that I had gone out with him before. She actually set us up lol. I wasn't that into him so we only had a couple of lukewarm dinner dates before moving on. But she still talked to me about it before going out with him because this is what mature women do. They got married, and I was the maid-of-honor, and one of the groomsmen made a joke about it during the speeches (because he was a douche.) Now, I'd never so much as kissed the groom, but people still thought it was odd. Just because of all the history and how it's all gone down, I'll never be able to support Oliver with either Lance sister. There will just always be an ick factor there, and the relationships are part of what keep the show grounded. I need for there to be some realism there if I'm going to keep watching.

Edited June 30, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Actionmage]

More than the upcoming Baby Digg, I think the frenemy/broship of John and Floyd Lawton (Deadshot) could also bring out stuff with Diggle and Oliver.

 

When dealing with Deadshot, John goes a bit darker; that was why Diggle was brought into the Arrow Cave, in the first place- to save him from Deadshot's curare. So it could be cool to see normally hot-tempered Oliver try to even out whatever issues come up in future encounters/missions. I forget which thread had a poster mentioning that if left alone too much, Digg can go a bit depressive or dark. To have Oliver experience what his friend has to go through to pull him from the edge may be another good step for Oliver and strengthen that part of the Team Arrow dynamic.

 

There seems to be a growing role for Floyd in John's life: triggerman in his brother's death (but willing to dribble info out to John) and teammate of Lyla's as part of the Suicide Squad. Now with the potential of sharing the title of father, there seems to be enough material to mine between Floyd/John/Oliver, including what is a hero, exactly and can bad guys ever earn the status of 'good'?  (I read the Suicide Squad comics and had a love/exasperation thing with Deadshot myself. I like how Michael Rowe is playing the role.)

[poetgirl925]

There seems to be a growing role for Floyd in John's life: triggerman in his brother's death (but willing to dribble info out to John) and teammate of Lyla's as part of the Suicide Squad. Now with the potential of sharing the title of father, there seems to be enough material to mine between Floyd/John/Oliver, including what is a hero, exactly and can bad guys ever earn the status of 'good'?  (I read the Suicide Squad comics and had a love/exasperation thing with Deadshot myself. I like how Michael Rowe is playing the role.)

I definitely want to see the Deadshot/Diggle angle explored more. This was, IMO, one of the most interesting things to come out of S2. I always thought Deadshot was a really great character in the comics, and I love Arrow's take on him as well. Now that the flashbacks will likely focus on Oliver's connection to Amanda/ARGUS in Hong Kong, I'm expecting more of ARGUS/Amanda/Suicide Squad in the present. Not gonna lie - I'm elated that we're finally off that island lol. My biggest fear? That we'll find out Oliver was sleeping with Amanda at some point (please show, DO NOT do this!)

[statsgirl]

I wish I could be as sure that the sun will shine tomorrow as I am that Oliver slept with Amanda Waller during Hong Kong, and that we'll see it on screen next season.

 

On the other hand, it could be worse. He could sleep with her in the present s3.  Or really, sleep with anyone else where the point is to stall O/F.  I didn't enjoy Isabel's Russia With Love trip.

[Password]

The Russia trip didn't so much make me think oh no Oliver what about Felicity as it did oh no Oliver that woman wants your company!!!!!! I really hope he doesn't do something stupid like that again because then all villains will just sleep with him to pacify all threats. Boy needs to keep his pants zipped for a good long time. For real.

But I do agree I can't take much more of Oliver sleeping with everyone in Starling as an obstacle for he and Felicity. There comes a time when I'll just say enough.

Edited June 30, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[fantique]

Can someone even explain to me how exactly 'star-crossed' is Lauriver? Except that it's doomed from the start, the definition of the term is not exactly met here. There was no evidence that were it not for "fate" getting in the way they would be together. There was no Great Power that fucked up their relationship to begin with... They just sucked together. They still do.

 

As for Olicity, I don't like when people from the show talk about it as if it's a thing yet. Don't misunderstand, I am all for an Olicity slow burn. Which is why the fake ILY pissed me off because I did not believe it and felt better when I realised it was fake with the "do you understand?". It was a bit cold and clumsy knowing Felicity had a bit of a crush on Oliver but yeah...  So when talking about a new love interest for Felicity I am super happy for her and don't give 2 shits about Oliver's feelings on the matter. The only way it should affect him is team dynamics. To me them "agreeing" that it was fake means they should both be trying to look for that kind of relationship somewhere else at least for the foreseeable future.

[Sunshine]

Oliver didn't deny it.  He just didn't confirm it.

 

As for L/O, fate got in the way? How is O having sex with S fate?

Edited June 30, 2014 by Sunshine

[poetgirl925]

Can someone even explain to me how exactly 'star-crossed' is Lauriver? Except that it's doomed from the start, the definition of the term is not exactly met here. There was no evidence that were it not for "fate" getting in the way they would be together. There was no Great Power that fucked up their relationship to begin with... They just sucked together. They still do.

I remember reading an interview before the show started that described L/O as star-crossed lovers. Even then it gave me a twinge of trepidation, though that may have been because I've read the comics. Unfortunately, they trashed star-crossed for me in the pilot. I just didn't buy it, and I thought they'd given up on this idea until I read some late S1 and post-finale interviews where I think one of the EPs used the term again.

I suppose L/O shippers tell themselves that if Oliver had returned from the China trip, he and Laurel would have worked things out. However, by this logic I could say that he and Sara were star-crossed and Oliver would have dumped Laurel upon returning from China. According to that one S2 flashback, Laurel may have intervened where Sara and Oliver were concerned from the very beginning. Based on all the flashbacks we've seen I could argue S/O as much more star-crossed because while Laurel had utterly deluded herself about Oliver and his true love potential, Sara knew she was dealing with a player. If not for Sara and Laurel being sisters, I could probably support an S/O pairing. I just don't like that it always seems to have been the sisters choosing Oliver over each other. That's not OTP material to me at all. It's more like the sister relationship I'd expect to see on Jerry Springer.

[Password]

I keep wondering about this Laurel intervened between Sara and Oliver potentially getting together and I honestly think it was done to make Sara and Oliver seem more OK in the present. Like the writers decided to make Sara and Oliver seem a good idea and to hell with Laurel because she got in the way.

From what we were told in s1 Sara was a party girl and she and Oliver had that in common. Now I'm to believe actually you know Laurel is a pretty bad sister that's why Sara swooped in for Oliver. Everything just leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

[Happy Harpy]

I suppose L/O shippers tell themselves that if Oliver had returned from the China trip, he and Laurel would have worked things out. However, by this logic I could say that he and Sara were star-crossed and Oliver would have dumped Laurel upon returning from China. According to that one S2 flashback, Laurel may have intervened where Sara and Oliver were concerned from the very beginning.

I don't think so. Oliver said to Sara on the Queen Gambit, "your sister will never know" when she's worried that Laurel would "kill her", I think it's a good indication that it was for him just a fling and he had no intention to dump Laurel for Sara after the trip. Unless she pulled an Olenna Tyrell.

As for Laurel's intervention, I can't be suspected of being biased in her favor (euphemism) but there I'd take her supposed motivations and the consequences of her tattletelling with a grain of salt. Sara can very well be an unreliable narrator, and we never got to see another POV on the incident (not that I want it revisited!). But IIIRC, it emerged from Oliver and Sara's discussion about it, on the island, that she wasn't even on his boink-dar at the time, and  he didn't even notice she wasn't at the party in question (again, if my memory doesn't betray me). I don't think that her missing a party and being grounded for a few weeks (3 months?) would have prevented Oliver from dating Sara and not Laurel, if she was the sister he truly wanted as his "steady one".

 

It made me think about the whole island flashback relationships and links with the present, and looking back, too, I have the feeling they did everything backwards. Based on what Sara said when she first reappeared ("always and forever") I imagined that she and Oliver had rekindled their relationship on the island, but things turned sour when she realized she was second fiddle to Laurel. The discussion I mentioned above would have gone in that direction, with Sara realizing that contrary to her beliefs, she never had a true chance with Oliver. Cue their conversation in the Queen mansion about baggage, and refreshing exes staying exes on TV; but truly knowing each other as friends, having been through the same kind of crucible, and having a healthy relationship as such.

Of course, with Shado barely cold, I can see how Sara/Oliver getting back together just after could be problematic -not that he was truly allowed to mourn her anyway. That's why, although I liked them well enough together, I believe that Oliver should never have been involved with Shado. She should have been with Slade. The Oliver/Sara thing could have been settled in the flashback instead of in present days, where it imo came out of left field, without Oliver looking callous re:Shado. Then, not only the Slade/Oliver fallout wouldn't have been based on a love triangle, but could have been a bit more complex, more akin to treason in Slade's eyes ("you sacrificed my girl for yours"). And above all, Slade's motivation for revenge would have made sense, then. 

Edited June 30, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[fantique]

Oliver didn't deny it.  He just didn't confirm it.

 

As for L/O, fate got in the way? How is O having sex with S fate?

I am saying it wasn't fate. Meaning that they are not an ideal couple with bad luck... just 2 people that should NEVER ever get together again.

[poetgirl925]

None of it makes sense, really, but I have a hard time believing Oliver thought he could forever hide his relationship with Sara from Laurel since they're sisters. All involved (EPs and KC mostly) really need to stop with the 'star-crossed lovers' and 'they're like Lois and Clark' (ugh - no) references. Pre-island Ollie was spoiled, selfish, and playing around with sisters, full stop. I don't think he loved either of them. The fact that he accepted that photo from Laurel on the docks and then went inside and had sex with her sister is just AWFUL. If they continue this theme of Oliver going back and forth between sisters, I can't root for the hero. The Arrow writers definitely don't have a good grasp of star-crossed. The Laurel/Oliver/Sara mess is, however, the best example of dysfunctional I've seen outside of a Shonda Rhimes drama (looking at you, Scandal.) And the Shado/Oliver/Slade stuff being mixed up in this was truly unfortunate IMO.

I believe Amell recognizes this as well, which accounts for his changing answers in interviews. I'm sure he had questions after reading the scripts for Heir to the Demon and Time of Death. He said he played it like there was more to their story because that's what he was told, but it didn't happen on the island. That leaves pre-island, I guess. The problem is that I don't want to know anymore about it. I'd rather they just drop it and allow Laurel and Sara to develop independently.

Edited June 30, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Password]

I believe Amell recognizes this as well, which accounts for his changing answers in interviews. I'm sure he had questions after reading the scripts for Heir to the Demon and Time of Death. He said he played it like there was more to their story because that's what he was told, but it didn't happen on the island. That leaves pre-island, I guess. The problem is that I don't want to know anymore about it. I'd rather they just drop it and allow Laurel and Sara to develop independent of Oliver.

None of the second half of season 2 made sense. I don't think it merits our headaches even though it's fun to dissect. What I loved about the last 2 episodes of s2 was that Laurel and Sara were together in each others company. I don't think that happened in the whole of the second half of season 2 (on screen anyway). I really would have liked it if they decided to work on their relationship instead of Sara and Oliver shacking up because the sisters have issues obviously beyond the cheating. Laurel wasn't a particularly good sister to go after the dude her sister likes so there must have been previous sibling rivalry.

[Morrigan2575]

e said he played it like there was more to their story because that's what he was told, but it didn't happen on the island.

IIRC, it was the other way around. SA and CL came up with the back story that there was more to their relationship on the island than what had been shown (so far). They took it to the producers who said yes, go with it.

I got the impression that SA/CL read the script went WTF?! and then said OK, maybe there's a history on the island at play? Let's go with that.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

The Russia trip didn't so much make me think oh no Oliver what about Felicity as it did oh no Oliver that woman wants your company!!!!!! I really hope he doesn't do something stupid like that again because then all villains will just sleep with him to pacify all threats. Boy needs to keep his pants zipped for a good long time. For real.

 

I was thinking, what an idiot.  She tried to tried to take your company, your mother told you not to trust her, she's mean to Felicity, and now you're going to jump into bed with her???  Not to mention, shouldn't  your mind be on getting Diggle out right now?

 

I can understand that they want to show what a stud Oliver is by having him sleep with every available woman but a) I find it a turn-off; b) he's supposed to have real feelings for Felicity; and 3) that's twice Felicity has been hurt by Oliver sleeping with other women (Isabel and later Sara) and if he keeps doing it, sympathy is going to be for Felicity and not Oliver/Felicity.

 

Can someone even explain to me how exactly 'star-crossed' is Lauriver? Except that it's doomed from the start, the definition of the term is not exactly met here. There was no evidence that were it not for "fate" getting in the way they would be together. There was no Great Power that fucked up their relationship to begin with... They just sucked together. They still do.

 

The first time I heard it in connection with the show was in the description when KC was cast as Laurel, I think.  'Ill-suited' and 'self-centered idiots' is a better description.  Romeo and Juliet, although also lacking basic communication skills*, were at least star-crossed in the sense that their families hated each other.  Laurel may not have been the person Moira Queen wanted for her baby boy, but she accepted her a lot better than either Felicity or Isabel.  And Juliet was only 13, not 23.

 

 

I have a hard time believing Oliver thought he could forever hide his relationship with Sara from Laurel since they're sisters.

That's not the head he was using.

 

In the flashbacks, it never looked like Oliver had feelings for Sara beyond having a good time until after the ship sank.  Laurel was pressuring him, Sara was available, and Robert had been setting him a really bad example for years.  If it cause Laurel to break up with him, well at least she'd stop pressuring him to move in together. Oliver probably thought he'd flash that grin and they'd get together again.

 

*If anyone feels about Romeo and Juliet the way I do, I recommend Karel Capek's Apocryphal Tales.

[Password]

I always thought Oliver got together with Sara in the hopes that Laurel finds out and ends it. There's no evidence suggesting he liked Sara for anything other than he's sleeping with her and because. Then Sara says Laurel is going to kill her so I'm confused. The whole business is nasty and there aren't enough minutes in the episode to deal with it.

I'm with you on Oliver sleeping with everyone except Felicity. If they continue it I'll just end up disliking Oliver even more and leave off with that potential pair.

[poetgirl925]

I really do imagine SA and CL had a hard time getting around those scripts, and someone as media savvy as Amell had to realize they were walking a thin line there. I said before on the Laurel Lance thread that Time of Death was a missed opportunity for Sara and Laurel. If they had not involved Oliver (OOC IMO) then that argument could have been between Sara and Laurel. No matter what silly lines they have Oliver and Laurel say to each other, Sara knows her sister better. The sibling rivalry and past betrayals could have been addressed. This is really the way it should have been. No one comes out looking good when it's Oliver + the Lance sisters. I really would love to know the story behind the backstory. Did they have a plan for digging out of it and it got derailed somewhere? Did anyone say, "Oh, I don't know - that seems extreme." Or were they all in agreement?

Berlanti: Okay so we need a reason to keep them apart for a while.

Guggenheim: What about star-crossed lovers?

Kreisberg: Oh! I have an idea....

Berlanti and Guggenheim: Awesome! Moving on. (and the world's worst OTP backstory was born)

Was I the only one who laughed and rolled my eyes when Oliver slept with Isabel? Yeah it was stupid, but for some reason it didn't bother me that much.

[catrox14]

I guess I don't have any issue with Oliver sleeping with Isabel in regard to Felicity. He's not with her, he's a single guy  and until he makes some kind of commitment to someone else, he's free to be with whom he wants.  Same with Felicity.  Felicity isn't naive about those things.

[statsgirl]

My issues with Oliver sleeping with Isabel are more about what a stupid thing it is to sleep with someone who is trying to take away his company because he shouldn't trust her at all (listen to Moira, Oliver) which makes him too stupid to root for, and second that he really should have been concentrating on helping Diggle.  Isn't that what went wrong the last time, that he was supposed to back up Diggle but his hormones got in the way and he went to 'save' Laurel?  The boy doesn't learn.  What if Isabel had wanted to cuddle, or to order room service afterwards and he couldn't get away?  (Also that she was mean to Felicity and I feel strongly about not associating with people who hurt my friend. Oliver letting Isabel keep doing it was a douche thing to do.)

 

I was okay with him being with Sara but in the last couple of episodes there has been an indication that he had made an emotional commitment to Felicity so I'm not okay with him sleeping around next season.

 

Felicity, on the other hand, tried to see if Oliver was interested in her and got shot down.  She's free to look elsewhere since Oliver said no. 

Edited June 30, 2014 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

 

My issues with Oliver sleeping with Isabel are more about what a stupid thing it is to sleep with someone who is trying to take away his company because he shouldn't trust her at all (listen to Moira, Oliver) which makes him too stupid to root for, and second that he really should have been concentrating on helping Diggle.  Isn't that what went wrong the last time, that he was supposed to back up Diggle but his hormones got in the way and he went to 'save' Laurel?  The boy doesn't learn.  What if Isabel had wanted to cuddle, or to order room service afterwards and he couldn't get away?  (Also that she was mean to Felicity and I feel strongly about not associating with people who hurt my friend. Oliver letting Isabel keep doing it was a douche thing to do.)

 

I don't think Oliver's one night stand with Isabel is remotely comparable to his attachment to Laurel. I don't think Oliver is going to be distracted from his Arrow business by Isabel's possible need to cuddle which is highly unlikely anyway. I just think that is a way harsh read on Oliver's capacity to use his judgment about his sexual dalliances vs his Arrow duties.. He doesn't love Isabel, he  never loved Isabel and as unhealthy as his relationship with Laurel is, he did care about her. His need to go protect Laurel is understandable given their long history. 

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think Oliver was completely aware of Isabel's shenanigans when he slept with her.

Edited June 30, 2014 by catrox14

[dtissagirl]

It's funny because I certainly don't want them to spend another single second of story on Laurel/Oliver/Sara, but I still have a bunch of questions about it all, because they never bothered to clarify anything. [it's no wonder Amell and Lotz had to come up with their own backstory, because THERE ISN'T ANY IN THE TEXT.] Like. Were Sara and Oliver hooking up behind Laurel's back even before the Gambit? From the way Dinah tells it in S1, when she caught Sara packing for the trip, Sara said she was in love with Oliver, so I just assumed they'd be going at it for a while. And then came the Laurel/Sara flashback, and Sara texting Oliver made me doubt it, and wonder if she'd be resisting his advances until that moment. OTOH, their texting had a familiarity to it that implied possibly already cheating. And Robert thought it was totally normal that Oliver had Sara with him instead of Laurel.

 

I mean. It's not like I think the writers even outlined a basic chronology here -- and there's also the not so small problem that the more they add to Sara/Oliver in the past, the stupider Laurel looks for not seeing it -- but it's kinda sad that the more I think about it, the more I realize they actually believed the audience would be okay with the sister-swapping because of that random "Laurel stole you from me" line.

 

SIGH. But I'll gladly accept if they never ever mention anything about any of this stuff ever again.

Edited June 30, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Sunshine]

I am saying it wasn't fate. Meaning that they are not an ideal couple with bad luck... just 2 people that should NEVER ever get together again.

Sorry, I did realize that. I guess it was just my annoyance with the EP's that had me saying that. I definitely agree with you!

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think Oliver was completely aware of Isabel's shenanigans when he slept with her.

You are right. This is about the point the EP's decided they didn't know where they were going with her - ally or enemy so I think she just disappeared from our screens.

[fantique]

OK gotcha no problem I just wanted to make sure I was not identified as a delusional Lauriver fan. ;)

No offense meant but right now to want those 2 together is wishing for some serious retcon nobody got time for.

3) that's twice Felicity has been hurt by Oliver sleeping with other women (Isabel and later Sara)

I don't think Felicity was hurt in either cases and I think she was happy for Oliver when he was with Sara and even liked her as well. I think with Isabel she was just confused as to why the hell Oliver even considered such a thing, she felt he deserved better.

Now this is pure extrapolation on my part but I never thought that even with her liking Oliver a bit, I never felt Felicity thought he liked her (romantically). I think she probably ranks her feelings as a small crush she can get over and she genuinely cares about him as a friend no matter what. That is why she had a WTF expression during the fakeout. Not a triumphant "I knew it. I knew we were meant to be" expression.

Edited July 1, 2014 by fantique

[catrox14]

 

Felicity, on the other hand, tried to see if Oliver was interested in her and got shot down.  She's free to look elsewhere since Oliver said no.

 

When did Felicity try to determine if Oliver was interested in her? I don't remember that at all.

[apinknightmare]

When did Felicity try to determine if Oliver was interested in her? I don't remember that at all.

 

At the end of "Unthinkable" when she was telling him that when he told her he loved her he had her fooled...for a second. She thought maybe he might of meant it...what he said...he really sold it.

[catrox14]

Oh okay. Sorry I thought they were talking about long before that. I guess I've lost the thread of the discussion.

[Sakura12]

I really do imagine SA and CL had a hard time getting around those scripts, and someone as media savvy as Amell had to realize they were walking a thin line there. I said before on the Laurel Lance thread that Time of Death was a missed opportunity for Sara and Laurel. If they had not involved Oliver (OOC IMO) then that argument could have been between Sara and Laurel. No matter what silly lines they have Oliver and Laurel say to each other, Sara knows her sister better. The sibling rivalry and past betrayals could have been addressed. This is really the way it should have been. No one comes out looking good when it's Oliver + the Lance sisters. I really would love to know the story behind the backstory. Did they have a plan for digging out of it and it got derailed somewhere? Did anyone say, "Oh, I don't know - that seems extreme." Or were they all in agreement?

Berlanti: Okay so we need a reason to keep them apart for a while.

Guggenheim: What about star-crossed lovers?

Kreisberg: Oh! I have an idea....

Berlanti and Guggenheim: Awesome! Moving on. (and the world's worst OTP backstory was born)

Was I the only one who laughed and rolled my eyes when Oliver slept with Isabel? Yeah it was stupid, but for some reason it didn't bother me that much.

 

That's why I wasn't angry at the Lance Family dinner like most everyone else here. I knew it wasn't about Sara or really have anything to do with the Lance Family. That was all to service Laurel. That was their give KC something to do scene and the make Laurel all better in one episode thing. Sara was there to bring Oliver along so he could hand Laurel her magical addiction cure. Sara served no other purpose in that scene. If it was really about the Lance family, they would've gone back to them to get Quentin, Dinah and Sara's reactions, but they didn't. There was no Lance Family drama, it was all Laurel drama. 

 

I don't even know why they bothered to bring Alex Kingston back for that either. They could've saved some money and had Laurel see Oliver and Sara having dinner together or kissing, had her blow up (she could've even picked up Sara's wine glass and thrown it at a waiter) and Oliver could've yelled at her then. 

Edited July 1, 2014 by Sakura12