Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[bijoux]

Plus the thing is, the way it started, with Oliver admitting there was something he wanted to check out first was pretty much perfect. Not in the sense that he's a perfect human but in acknowledging his need to process things and asking for space, with Felicity giving it to him. Then of course it went kaboom. It was still better than what we have now. The reveal and confrontation hurt, but in the ripping off a band aid way. Now the thing has just been left to fester.

[dtissagirl]

Yup. The fact that the writing is so terribadly contrived -- just so they can stretch a storyline that could be solved with ONE CONVERSATION -- is probably what's gonna ultimately make me disconnect enough from this mess, that when they solve it ultra quick sometime in February sweeps, I'll gladly take it. Because it'll mean I'll be FREE.

Edited January 6, 2016 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

The plot-driven mess is made worse because before Oliver went out to stalk BM, he told Felicity he wanted to check IF there was something to tell her. His exact words were "There is something going on, and I am going to tell you all about it. I would just like the chance to know what I'm dealing with first."

That part wasn't erased, right? I'm surprised Felicity let it go at all, even though I'm sure her suspicions were (rightly) raised.

 

Kind of an aside, but I really wish people would stop circulating the boob-cuddling gif on Tumblr and Twitter. In context it's just totally gross.

that when they solve it ultra quick sometime in February sweeps, I'll gladly take it. Because it'll mean I'll be FREE.

 

I don't think it will be solved by the end of Feb sweeps. I think they'll spend at least a few episodes broken up. They could distinguish this separation from S3's, though, by having Oliver not accept it. Part of the reason it was so rough in S3 was that he was more or less accepting her moving on, so casting longing glances but not actually doing anything about it. So this time it could be different/better if she dumps him, and he doesn't accept her moving on, but instead actively works to show her he's sorry, he's changed (maybe by telling Thea, etc., about the kid if it hasn't been made public), and that he is willing to put in actual work to gain back her trust. That way their interactions wouldn't be so cold, like they were for most of S3. He's never really worked for her, he's pretty much just always let her walk away, so that could be a cool change.

Edited January 6, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

No, it wasn't erased. That's why she asked him what was bothering him at the end of the episode.

[Password]

And in reply he said "It's over."

Every time I think about this I get more mad.

[AyChihuahua]

And in reply he said "It's over."

Every time I think about this I get more mad.

Don't forget "It doesn't matter." Because he thinks she dumped him over it, meaning he knows damn well it matters, but he still lied and said it didn't.

No, it wasn't erased. That's why she asked him what was bothering him at the end of the episode.

Thanks.

[Ceylon5]

Timeline 1 Oliver was actually not making any sense.  First he promises he'll tell her everything.  Then he supposedly wants to tell her but is being prevented by the stupid ultimatum.  But Felicity finds out on her own (which should have been a relief to him if he didn't want to be forced to keep it secret from her), so when she asks him when he was planning to tell her, why did he say "I don't know", instead of "I wanted to, but [insert incredibly stupid explanation about incredibly stupid ultimatum]"?  It's like the writers hadn't fully decided why Oliver would randomly decide to keep this a secret, so they didn't commit to any one reason, and sort of gave a vague smorgasbord of very unsatisfying reasons, hoping we wouldn't notice that none of it made any sense at all.

 

I did find it interesting that Felicity talked about him keeping secrets in terms of an addiction, though.  If she thought he had fallen "off the wagon" with regards to his secret-keeping addiction, that implies that they probably had a discussion at some point about how keeping secrets is an unhealthy habit of his and that she takes a very dim view of it.

[BkWurm1]

Ann Mack, on 06 Jan 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I really don't understand why reviewers insist on referring to him as "Ollie" there is absolutely nothing cute about calling a grown man this. Thank goodness Felicity and Diggle don't. I was pissed that Barry called him Ollie too.

 

This was brought over from the News Thread.

 

Just wanted to share my theories on why Barry would call Oliver Ollie when he has never been exposed to or introduced to Oliver as Ollie.

 

I have two thoughts.  It is possible that since it happened in the crossover that they just had a writer doing that part that forgot there is a delineation of who calls him Ollie and why.  Or it could simply be an acting choice by GG. 

 

My in-show reasoning suggests that calling him Ollie is Barry's way of getting under his skin, kind of like forcing hugs on him.  Oliver is very serious and calling him a very unserious name would be Barry teasing him. 

 

I bring this up because I was somewhere where the argument was that obviously Felicity and DIggle aren't close enough to be allowed the use of his nick name to which I say no, no, a thousand times no.  

Edited January 6, 2016 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

I bring this up because I was somewhere where the argument was that obviously Felicity and DIggle aren't close enough to be allowed the use of his nick name to which I say no, no, a thousand times no.  

 

Lol obviously they aren't close enough... Obviously Oliver wouldn't ask Felicity to marry him or call Diggle his brother unless they were close...... Oh wait. HE DID DO THOSE THINGS :p Maybe he's faking being close to them all this time lol 

[way2interested]

I bring this up because I was somewhere where the argument was that obviously Felicity and DIggle aren't close enough to be allowed the use of his nick name to which I say no, no, a thousand times no.  

Ha, I wonder what they thought when Felicity used it in 321 to bridge the gaps in her talk with Thea about how they both love Oliver and how Oliver would want Thea to continue living her life. Was she close enough to him then to be allowed to use it that one time?

[SmallScreenDiva]

Different tangent from what we're talking about now — or maybe not. I just love how very clearly the show illustrates Felicity's influence and/or impact on Oliver by having him repeat her words. Like this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

More from this gifset

[Delphi]

I love repeated lines aND parallels, especially after time has passed. I also love the old Arrow costume. A lot.

[bethy]

Just wanted to share my theories on why Barry would call Oliver Ollie when he has never been exposed to or introduced to Oliver as Ollie.

 

I have two thoughts.  It is possible that since it happened in the crossover that they just had a writer doing that part that forgot there is a delineation of who calls him Ollie and why.  Or it could simply be an acting choice by GG. 

 

My in-show reasoning suggests that calling him Ollie is Barry's way of getting under his skin, kind of like forcing hugs on him.  Oliver is very serious and calling him a very unserious name would be Barry teasing him. 

 

Either of those work for me. Plus I think at some point on Flash, Barry referred to Caitlyn as Caity, so it makes me wonder if it's a Grant/Barry thing.

[tv echo]

Reading the tie-in comics really helped me understand a lot of stuff - esp. the 2.5 comics, which included the whole story about Caleb Green calling Oliver a "selfish and self-centered child of privilege", which then made Oliver doubt himself.  The comics make this big distinction between who Oliver is now and who Oliver was before. Both Felicity and Diggle make this distinction clear to Oliver. In fact, even not getting his family's company back is tied into the fact that Oliver wants to distance himself from his former life and his former self:

 

Felicity: “Look, here’s the point I’m really trying to make – You’re a hero. Maybe you weren’t before. Caleb Green was right about who you were before the Queen’s Gambit went down. But since then, you’ve become someone else. You’ve become something else. And make no mistake, that something else… is a hero.  If you were the man Caleb Green says you are, do you think John and Roy would follow you into battle? If you were the man Caleb Green says you are, you wouldn’t have inspired a team. You wouldn’t have inspired me.  And all of us – including you – wouldn’t fight every single day to make this city a better place.  And you have to admit, it’s a pretty amazing city.”

 

Diggle: “Oliver… you’re not getting your family’s company back.”
Oliver: “What are you talking about?”
Diggle: “Green held up a mirror to you. To your old life. And you’ve been running from that image for the past month. I can’t think of a bigger reminder of that old life than Queen Consolidated.”
Oliver: “I’m sure there’s a point in there somewhere, but for the life of me I can’t find it.”
Diggle: “You may think you want the company back, but deep down, you know you’ve moved on from it.”
Oliver: “It’s my father’s legacy, John.”
Diggle: “So was Green, in a way. That’s my point. You’re your own man. Charting your own course. Just think about it.”

 

Oliver wants and needs no reminders of his past life and his past persona - not Queen Consolidated and certainly not "Ollie" as a nickname.  He may let the people who're used to calling him by that nickname call him "Ollie" (Thea, Laurel), but I think he likes the fact that the new people in his new life (Felicity, Diggle) call him "Oliver".  

 

I would also point out that there have been in-show references and actions indicating that Felicity and Diggle (and Thea) are the people closest to Oliver now.

 

Sometimes an adult will call another adult by a diminutive of their name as a way of diminishing them (when they have no childhood reason for doing so).  However, in the case of Barry, I think it was done jokingly.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tv echo

[way2interested]

Oliver wants and needs no reminders of his past life and his past persona - not Queen Consolidated and certainly not "Ollie" as a nickname. He may let the people who're used to calling him by that nickname call him "Ollie" (Thea, Laurel), but I think he likes the fact that the new people in his new life (Felicity, Diggle) call him "Oliver".

I would also point out that there have been in-show references and actions indicating that Felicity and Diggle (and Thea) are the people closest to Oliver now.

I do find it interesting though that, despite the idea that he probably does appreciate being called Oliver more than his old Ollie nickname, he almost encourages it with Thea. He's referred to himself as Ollie when talking with Thea, and even Felicity only called him Ollie to Thea to make the connection.

The difference here, I believe, is that it seems that Thea already thought that "Ollie" was a good person, or at least the brother that Oliver wanted to be, so Oliver knows that in Thea's use of the nickname she only uses it in a place of love rather than referring to his old ways. When Laurel, Tommy, or Sara use it, it just brings up the memories they all have of him, which are quite negative in actuality. Even though Ollie was an awful person, to Thea he was her big brother who loved her, and, if using the name brings them closer together, he'll let her call him that for the rest of their lives.

[kismet]

ITA. I don't mind the 'overreaction' because Oliver making up a story and lying to her face like that was awful. He made a choice to lie when he could have at least tried to ask her to give him more time, or say that he wasn't ready to talk about it, but he went straight for the lie.

And because the writers let plot needs take priority in what was a really important character moment for Oliver and Felicity, the whole thing came out muddled with both of them having to behave slightly OOC in order to accomplish the end goal of that scene - which was Barry seeing Felicity storm off.

I chalk the overreaction to more of for plot moment. However, it did not surprise me that FS overreacted & OQ lied - that's just who they are at times.

 

For me the overreaction didn't impact their overall relationship one way or the other. But it was an overreaction from her and that I do think impacted how people interpret FS's reaction to certain relationship moments. Especially if they start to speculate forward. The writers have a tendency to sacrifice character for plot. And FS is sometimes quick to overreact. The writers use it as a plot device, but they have done it consistently enough times now that it is part of her characterization. In the end, it doesn't bother me, because I think it is just part of what makes her human & relatable. I do dread what her overreaction is going to be when BM/W is revealed. It will all blow over by the end of the season, and I do want her to be angry with OQ, but I don't anticipate enjoying the middle part of the s4b.

Edited January 7, 2016 by kismet

[bijoux]

Sometimes an adult will call another adult by a diminutive of their name as a way of diminishing them (when they have no childhood reason for doing so).  However, in the case of Barry, I think it was done jokingly.

 

I don't think Barry was diminishing Oliver but I also don't remember him as doing it as a joke. That's what I found weird about it and Grant Gustin is certainly more than good enough to get joking across. Didn't he also use it twice during the crossover? I could be wrong, but the wounds are still too fresh for me to go back and check.

 

Caleb Green is someone from the comics, he was never mentioned on the show, right?

[dtissagirl]

I really don't put much stock into Barry using the nickname, because people on The Flash tend to use them. "Bar", "Cait", "Harry", they're people who do nicknames.

 

And as someone who IS called by a childhood nickname by pretty much everyone ever -- asking people to NOT use it never ever EVER goes well. Ever.

[tv echo]

Caleb Green is someone from the comics, he was never mentioned on the show, right?

 

Caleb Green was a new character introduced in the 2.5 comics.  I don't believe he was ever mentioned on the show.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

I really don't put much stock into Barry using the nickname, because people on The Flash tend to use them. "Bar", "Cait", "Harry", they're people who do nicknames.

 

And as someone who IS called by a childhood nickname by pretty much everyone ever -- asking people to NOT use it never ever EVER goes well. Ever.

I think that's so disrespectful. If someone actually asks people not to call him/her by childhood nickname, they should make a concerted effort to stop. (Not a show issue, bc Oliver has never asked anyone to stop calling him Ollie. Although HE REALLY SHOULD.)

[kismet]

I really don't put much stock into Barry using the nickname, because people on The Flash tend to use them. "Bar", "Cait", "Harry", they're people who do nicknames.

 

And as someone who IS called by a childhood nickname by pretty much everyone ever -- asking people to NOT use it never ever EVER goes well. Ever.

Having never really liked my given name, but rather loving another version of it - I tried once in college to get my friends to call me it instead and it did not go over well. They had already spent a month or so learning my name, and its what is on all my legal documents, so it just to be annoying trying to change it. I toyed with the idea later in a new job and then realized it just wasn't worth it. People tend to call you what they want, and often that is the name you were introduced to them as. And frankly sometimes, it just too hard to get people to change. I have given up and now just go by whatever people want to call me. And I have a lot of random nicknames now. So its fine with me. Plus now I even have the pleasure of being one those people that gets the last name initial tag to my name which happens to be the name I was going for any way. The irony and sarcasm of that reality is what it is most days.

 

Plus I always find it a little rude for people to insist on being called one thing over another. I once knew somebody who would correct everybody on the correction of her name. If they didn't correct it, she refused to acknowledge them. If it a pleasant request has not worked, than they probably just need to let it go otherwise it cause unnecessary stress. Which is what I think OQ has done. I don't think it really matters to him what people call him. I do think he has a personal preference which name he prefers, but he's not bothered if people call him something other than Oliver. In the end, what people call you does not always correlate with the relationship you have with a person. It just establishes what people call you, which can have some meaning depending on the nickname or just be a convenience thing.

 

I don't read much into BA calling him Ollie, other than it was just an odd writing choice. But certainly, there were far other odd writing choices during the crossover to be in a tizzy over.

Edited January 7, 2016 by kismet

[calliope1975]

And as someone who IS called by a childhood nickname by pretty much everyone ever -- asking people to NOT use it never ever EVER goes well. Ever.

 

I'm a Jennifer, and I introduce myself to new people as such in person or through e-mail for work. Inevitably, and usually pretty quickly, I become Jen. All the time. It doesn't bother me, but I do find it amusing and a bit weird since I've never indicated that I'm okay with it. 

[dtissagirl]

My experience has been that my nickname is less about me, and more about who uses it [which is why imo you can't really nickname yourself]. My sister nicknamed me when I was 8. And then my family started using it, and then friends/classmates/teachers would find out and also start using it... and it snowballed. I've learned a long long long time ago I have no control over who calls me by my actual name, and who calls me by the nickname, and who uses both. What does happen is -- if you only call me by the nickname and you suddenly use my name? That's WEIRD AS FUCK and it creeps me out big time. Heh.

 

I kinda think Oliver feels the same way -- he refers to himself as "Ollie" to Thea not because that's WHO he is to her, but that's what HIS NAME is to her [there's a difference]. I'm pretty sure if Dig or Felicity suddenly called him "Ollie" he'd be weirded out too. I don't know if/why he wasn't with Barry, but maybe he just didn't pay attention? I didn't catch it while watching, so maybe Oliver didn't either.

Edited January 7, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Sakura12]

I don't see what the big deal is with Oliver's name. The only person that should care is the person and if they don't say anything. I don't see why anyone else should care. 

 

Oliver has called himself Ollie when he left a voicemail for Laurel during Sara's back from the dead party. And I'm pretty sure the tabloids or news reporters called him Oliver Queen not Ollie Queen when talking about him. So he was a douchebag with both names in the past. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Sakura12

[catrox14]

I think of Thea calling Oliver "Ollie" a bit like in Supernatural with Dean calling Sam 'Sammy'.  He doesn't do it all the time but when he does IMO it's just a big brother thing that he'll never stop doing, He says it when he teases him and when he's freaking out about Sam being in danger or just as a matter of course. It's part of how they grew up and it's a sibling dynamic that IMO will last til the day they die.

 

IMO Thea calls Oliver "Ollie" and Oliver refers to himself as "Ollie" because that's a sibling thing and they'll always do that. Even 5 years away and a change of person in Oliver doesn't change how that sibling dynamic is entrenched.It's like him calling her 'Speedy'.  That will happen until the day they die. And IMO it's appropriate because they are siblings.

 

I've never understood why Laurel continues to call him "Ollie". It was an endearment harkening back to their past but she loathed his existence when he came back from presumed death...well until she found out he's was the Arrow and decided it was okay to like him or support him again. 

 

Sara calling him "Ollie" harkens to the past but Sara didn't loathe Oliver so she could say it with fondness after a time. Now that the whole being resurrected thing has happened, I wonder if she'll ever call him Ollie again. But either way if she does it won't bother me because they never hated each other that I could discern, unlike Oliver and Laurel who IMO have hated each other.

 

I can't even see Diggle or Felicity calling him "Ollie" because it just doesn't suit their relationships IMO. 

[bijoux]

For me the deal is Barry calling him Ollie out of the blue. That's the weird part. He's been calling him Oliver since he's known him and wasn't really in touch with people who use the nickname. I'm not crazy about it, but I'm fine with people who've always used it continue to do so. It's tough to break that habit and it is their connection with the person they knew.

If Diggle or Felicity ever call him Ollie, I'll know it's their way of saying code red or that we've got a doppelganger on our hands.

[Guest]

I think the only ones I don't mind calling him Ollie are Thea, Laurel and Sara, only because they knew him 'before' and that's what they always called him. It's hard to break that kind of habit anyway.

 

Ollie coming from anyone else, including Barry Allen, is just plain weird/wrong because he's not that person anymore and he's never introduced himself as anyone other than Oliver. 

[statsgirl]

I can see Laurel calling him 'Ollie" as a way to put him in his place.  Oliver is running for mayor, the Green Arrow is the best vigilante, but Ollie is all those years of when he was being a douche.

 

 

Moira's death was not done for anything but shock value. And it made me lose some respect for the writers that they couldn't find a way to keep her on the show when it was obvious her character had so much more potential and the actress was phenomenal in the role. If they found a way to bring back JB, I don't know why they couldn't find a way to keep MQ.

 

SL should have died in s2 instead if they really needed a death. It would have made sense for Slade in his crazy to want to complete the circle from Shado's death by killing SL himself. It also would have even made sense to help LL's journey to BC that similar to OQ after TM's death, she spent the summer after her sister's death isolating herself with grief and perhaps trying to find some sense of closure via martial arts. She could have snuck away to some secret martial arts training site. So when we met her in the fall, perhaps we could just believe that she had the skills similar to how it was easier to believe TQ's skills after her summer with MM.

I agree that Tommy's death had purpose.  Sara's death should have had purpose but it ended up being just a way to move Laurel into the BC role and give Malcolm and Ra's a storyline for s3.

 

Didn't the EPs say that Moira was killed because they were done with the character?  Really short-sighted of them.  If someone had to die, it should have been Sara who was the one who survived when Ivo killed Shado. That would have made more sense in Slade's crazy mind.

 

But talking about the killings of the past (Tommy, Moira, Sara), they were all weighty and important characters. Bringing Malcolm and now Sara back from the dead has watered that down so that they have to kill a major character this season to bring back that sense of doom on the show.  It's got to be Quentin, Laurel, Thea, Diggle or Felicity in that grave or else it's not really worthy anything.

[AyChihuahua]

But talking about the killings of the past (Tommy, Moira, Sara), they were all weighty and important characters. Bringing Malcolm and now Sara back from the dead has watered that down so that they have to kill a major character this season to bring back that sense of doom on the show.  It's got to be Quentin, Laurel, Thea, Diggle or Felicity in that grave or else it's not really worthy anything.

That is only listing the characters who've died who have been weighty, though. It's kind of a self-selecting list. Other, less-weighty characters have also died.

[bethy]

The line between Ollie and Oliver doesn't seem quite so defined in Show as "Ollie" is pre-Island, "Oliver" is post-Island. I'm not bothered by Thea and Laurel and Sara calling him "Ollie." That's who he is to them. And that seems to be who he is to himself with those three. Oliver's never expressed any sort of annoyance or discomfort with "Ollie," so I don't feel like Laurel's being high-handed or disparaging when she calls him by the name she called him for years.

 

I have a dear friend who made a very conscious decision to switch from the diminutive to her full name when she started her professional career. But try as I might I cannot think of her as anything but the name she was when I first knew her. When I've apologized for slipping up, she's said it doesn't matter when old friends call her that. I feel like this is that sort of situation, if it bothers Oliver at all. Which it doesn't seem to.

 

What does seem odd to me is reviewers who call him "Ollie" all the time. That bugs me. But I think those reviewers see it as comic book cred or something

[dtissagirl]

What does seem odd to me is reviewers who call him "Ollie" all the time. That bugs me. But I think those reviewers see it as comic book cred or something

 

This bugs me way way way more than the nickname being used in the show. If only because my brain CANNOT think Stephen Amell when I read "Ollie", so all those reviews are about Justin Hartley and Smallville. So there [TM Steve].

[statsgirl]

Yeah, it's the reviewers who come from the comic books who call him Ollie. Not surprisingly, many strongly support the GA/BC romance.

 

I know the problems of trying to change your name mid-life. The immigrants who came over when I did anglicized their names (like Ira for Israel and George for Jacob with the Gershwins) and so my parents did too.  Now it's more acceptable to have foreign sounding names so I'm trying to switch back as I re-invent myself but there's two groups of people who know me by different names and I have to keep remembering who I am in each.  Last night I was at a meeting with someone I knew quite well a few years ago and she didn't recognize (although she may not have recognized me by my other name either).

That is only listing the characters who've died who have been weighty, though. It's kind of a self-selecting list. Other, less-weighty characters have also died.

Lots of other characters have died but so far, each year someone significantly important to Oliver has died in a relationship that cannot be repeated with anyone else. Malcolm doesn't really count in s1 but Tommy does because he was his best/only friend from boyhood.  Moira was his mother, Sara was the closest thing he has to an alter self (vigilante, broken) as well as his guilt over what happened to her.

 

They either need to stop killing people who who are very important to Oliver, or they have to make this year's significant.  Since they've been teasing the grave scene, they've doubled down on the 'significant and important'.

[bijoux]

Oh, yes. The reviews are the worst since the show treats him as Oliver. So when I see that in a review, I get the impression that the wrier doesn't pay attention to the show. So why should I pay attention to what they have to say about it?

[Happy Harpy]

I agree that Tommy's death had purpose.  Sara's death should have had purpose but it ended up being just a way to move Laurel into the BC role and give Malcolm and Ra's a storyline for s3.

 

Didn't the EPs say that Moira was killed because they were done with the character?  Really short-sighted of them.

You'd think that since Sara's death was supposed to serve two Big Bads, they would have been careful that there actually was a coherent storyline or even a thread of sense somewhere. Even reading recaps, I still can't find any.

I know that her death was also supposed to serve her sister, but obviously only to free the Canary spot as you said since IIRC, Laurel was widely kept in the dark about everything NP, Thea and Malcolm for most of the season.

 

I remember the interview of one of the producers, where he said that Moira needed to die so that Thea had nobody to turn to but Malcolm (close wording, as far as my memory works). So it's at least one of their reasons. *head meets desk. repeatedly* 

Oliver and Roy lucked out that Thea only needed to be pissed off at the male characters close to her and under fourty to consider she had nobody to turn to but Malcolm. As for Walter fans, they (we) lucked out when the writers forgot once more that he was Thea's father figure after Robert's death, otherwise I guess they would have killed him, too.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[statsgirl]

I remember the interview of one of the producers, where he said that Moira needed to die so that Thea had nobody to turn to but Malcolm (close wording, as far as my memory works). So it's at least one of their reasons. *head meets desk. repeatedly*

Why couldn't Slade have held the blade to her throat so that Thea thought she was going to die?  Since her reason for going off with Malcolm is never to be that lacking in strength again, she could still have left with him and thumbed her nose at her mother as she did it.

 

I agree, if they had realized her relationship with Walter, he would have been dead too by now.

[BunsenBurner]

Personally I think Barry called Oliver Ollie because Andrew Kreisberg [sp?} wants it as a dig at Arrow. The Flash writers are always dissing Arrow every chance they can.

 

In regards to nicknames my brother was 6 when we moved and he had to attend a new school. His teacher called him Andy and he refused to answer to it. By the end of the day he was sent to the principal's office and my mom was called to come to his office.  The teacher, Andrew, my mom and the principal sat down and had a talk. Andrew was asked why he wouldn't answer to Andy or Drew and he said when he was born he was given the name Andrew and it was his legal name and therefore he would never answer to any other name. The principal laughed, the teacher wasn't happy as there was another Andrew in the class and told my mom that since he was the new kid he had to take the nickname.  My brother turned to my mother and told her that she might as well put him into another school because he would not change his name.  He never did and always refused to answer to any other name no matter how many times the girls tried to change it.  BTW he's a lawyer now.

[Happy Harpy]

Why couldn't Slade have held the blade to her throat so that Thea thought she was going to die?  Since her reason for going off with Malcolm is never to be that lacking in strength again, she could still have left with him and thumbed her nose at her mother as she did it.

But, but...what you say makes sense! And Oliver's manpain, then? ;)

It was the other reason for her death, imo. Because he didn't lose enough people yet. *head meets desk, again*

I think it comes down to the fact that, for some reason or other, the EPs wanted Moira dead.

 

I think they were looking for someone to replace Laurel as his love interest at that point.

I can't decide when, exactly, they gave up on Laurel as the LI/end game. I have tons of ideas about it, but no definite conviction -I'd love a tell-all book after the end of the show, not for the gossip but because imo, the way the show took shape during the first two years must make for an interesting read.

 

I think that in S1 at least, they were 100% on the L/O OTP train. Imo, they wanted Oliver as reportedly, he is in the comic book: a playboy with a harem, with some LI more serious than others, while playing star-crossed lovers with Laurel. So I'm not sure that they were trying to replace her permanently in that spot, but looked for others to "keep the place warm" until she fulfilled her destiny as BC when everybody would have instantly loved her and loved the O/L couple. Imo, they saw the problem with L/O the way they saw the problem with Laurel: put her in fishnets, solve the issue.

 

I don't remember when Stephen Amell said he went to the producers about Oliver/Felicity to ask whether they were going romantic, and was answered "Nope, never". Maybe at the beginning of S1-B...but wasn't it at the very beginning of S2-A? My memory tells me that the first time I read it, I thought it was late in the game, and later than I thought, for the producers to be that definite.

 

Yet maybe it wasn't Laurel, but rather the BC that the EPs couldn't give up as a LI for Oliver. I think that if they ever seriously thought about a permanent replacement for Laurel in S2, it was at first with Sara. But it happened that Sara was a better hit with the audience as the BC-warrior than as the BC- Oliver's LI, while O/F took flight (YMMV).

I suspect that there was a disagreement among the writers about the direction in which to take Oliver romantically; since after a S2-A very O/F oriented,he was pulled back in the Lance's sisters orbit, and they barely interacted until the end-ish of the season.

 

Actually, I'm not even sure that part of the EPs/writers didn't hope that Felicity/Ray on the one hand, and Laurel as BC on the other hand, would be such hits that somehow, they could go back to L/O and GA/BC in a couple of seasons. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that, if O/F is endgame, the decision was made even later.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[bijoux]

Ray was there to get his own show, not to be permanently paired with Felicity.

I honestly feel they started to put nails in the Oliver/Laurel coffin in S1 with hooking them up. Then they had him turn a (drunk?) Laurel down early in S2 and actually having some sort of relationship with her sister.

[dtissagirl]

I think that story they repeat over and over about Peter Roth [WBTV president] telling the EPs to lock EBR after he watched 103 is symptomatic that AT LEAST the studio was on the lookout for a replacement love interest right from the start. The network [who pushed for KC], and the EPs [who had a ~vision~, and, you know, EGOS] might have taken longer to agree, though.

[AyChihuahua]

They had definitely decided to kill them when they came up with the hookup of horror, Tommy watching, the song "Radioactive" playing. It would have been different if they were keeping Tommy and turning him bad, but instead he died heroically shortly afterwards.

 

Chemistry is subjective, but pretty much everyone who matters early on in both the show's production and the tv critic community noted SA and KC's terrible romantic chemistry. Personally I think that at least the big guns knew that SA/KC was not going to work regardless of what they did with BC within the first couple episodes. I bet they were pretty freaked out about it, too.

[tv echo]

I never seriously considered that the EPs might deviate from Oliver/Laurel as endgame until they had Oliver hook up with Sara again in the present day (late S2).  I think they realized that starting Oliver and Laurel off in Season 1 with a cheating, sister-swapping back story and hostile female lead was not working, but I thought they would separate them, give Oliver other love interests, make Laurel the BC and have her join his crusade, and then get them slowly back together in later seasons.  I mean, even in a Dec. 2013 interview with KC (mid-S2), KC was saying that Oliver/Laurel was endgame and that Felicity was just a fling.

 

Felicity kept me watching in S1 long after I would've otherwise quit the show.  Although I was hoping for Oliver/Felicity, I didn't think it would happen and didn't let my hopes go up until the S2 finale with Oliver's 'ILY' fake-out. Then there were MG's Sep. 2014 comments about how we would see Oliver & Felicity grow "closer and closer" over the course of the 2.5 comics, culminating in their first date in 301.

 

Tbh, though, I'm still not sure it's set in stone that Oliver/Laurel are over permanently.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tv echo

[calliope1975]

Chemistry is subjective, but pretty much everyone who matters early on in both the show's production and the tv critic community noted SA and KC's terrible romantic chemistry. Personally I think that at least the big guns knew that SA/KC was not going to work regardless of what they did with BC within the first couple episodes. I bet they were pretty freaked out about it, too.

 

Yeah, TPTB have repeatedly mentioned how they sat up when they saw the dailies with EBR. I have to imagine the exact opposite was happening when they were seeing the dailies between SA/KC. Honestly, while it seems like the story is they weren't going to go romantic with Olicity, they did course correct pretty quickly for a TV show. I suspect that's more due to network influence than the showrunners and writers, but that's pure speculation. 

[tangerine95]

I think by the middle of season 1 they already decided to replace Laurel as LI.I think the whole reason they killed Tommy and rushed the Lauriver hook up as well as did it in a way that made them look bad was because they were done with Lauriver as epic star crossed soulmates.MG may say that they decided on Olicity halfway through season 2 but to me it looks like Felicity was being set up as the main LI since 2.01.Season 2B and all the Sara and Oliver stuff was there to stall Olicity and totally end Lauriver.It doesn't seem to me like it was all that hard for them to give up on Lauriver.Giving up on Laurel as BC was the problem but imo that has more to do with bts stuff than with what they want to write.

[Happy Harpy]

I agree about the Suits/EPs difference of perception (just in case, my post was about the latter).

 

They had definitely decided to kill them when they came up with the hookup of horror, Tommy watching, the song "Radioactive" playing. It would have been different if they were keeping Tommy and turning him bad, but instead he died heroically shortly afterwards.

In hindsight, my opinion is that it indeed damaged the O/L relationship as much as the sister swapping. But there's always been imo a cognitive dissonance around Laurel and Laurel/Oliver. There's always been this gap between what the writers intended and the way the viewers perceived it. So I think that the latter was supposed to take the hookup at face value, and go aww and hot and bothered at the star-crossed lovers reuniting. Especially because of K.Cassidy's views about Tommy/Laurel.

 

I think they knew that starting Oliver and Laurel off in Season 1 with a cheating back story and hostile female lead was not working, but I thought they would separate them, give Oliver other love interests, make Laurel the BC, and then get them slowly back together in later seasons.  I mean, even in a Dec. 2013 interview with KC  (mid-S2), KC was saying that Oliver/Laurel was endgame and that Felicity was just a fling.

I do think that for the EPs, at least in the beginning, O/L was just postponed and time would make it all better.

And you know, I now tend to believe that K.Cassidy's declarations/answers about O/L and Laurel's romantic relationships might be the most faithful guide of what was the producers' masterplan. She certainly had it right about Laurel becoming the BC, even when all pointers were going in the Sara direction for taking over the role (and many thought she was delusional).

Edited January 7, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[bijoux]

If the hookup was supposed to come across in a positive light, why would they have shown Tommy watching it happen?

As for Katie Cassidy's claims, didn't they continue throughout S3?

[Morrigan2575]

MG said in April of 2013 that they had to wrap up the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle before they could move onto Felicity. This was in an interview given right around the S1 finale.

They knew before S1 even ended that they were going with Olicity. I would imagine that was part of their S2 pitch to CW/WB/DC.

[AyChihuahua]

I never seriously considered that the EPs might deviate from Oliver/Laurel as endgame until they had Oliver hook up with Sara again in the present day.  I think they realized that starting Oliver and Laurel off in Season 1 with a cheating, sister-swapping back story and hostile female lead was not working, but I thought they would separate them, give Oliver other love interests, make Laurel the BC and have her join his crusade, and then get them slowly back together in later seasons.  I mean, even in a Dec. 2013 interview with KC (mid-S2), KC was saying that Oliver/Laurel was endgame and that Felicity was just a fling.

I don't believe anything KC says on the subject. Not lying, but delusional.

 

So the OQ/LL story was terrible, definitely. Sister-swapping, blech, and she was so mean to him in the pilot. But I THINK a fantastic actress with awesome chemistry with SA could actually have overcome that. Candice Patton, for example (who I think is currently the best overall actress in the Flarrow universe). I really think a warmer, more empathetic actress would have said the same mean things sufficiently differently that it could have worked out, and LBR, people are willing to overlook a LOT of bad writing for really fantastic chemistry.

 

Re L/O getting back together romantically...it is just not going to happen. There are VERY few things I am sure about with this show, primarily because I genuinely believe Guggie is a moron. Two things I am sure of: Felicity is not in the grave, and L/O are not going to happen again.

If the hookup was supposed to come across in a positive light, why would they have shown Tommy watching it happen?

As for Katie Cassidy's claims, didn't they continue throughout S3?

And why would they have picked a song that is literally titled for a property that mutates and kills? They could have chosen one of the millions of love songs, or just had a romantic score. I agree that they often miss the mark with the audience, but I think they pretty definitely meant this to come off as gross, and they totally succeeded.

Edited January 8, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[tangerine95]

I think KC until recently held on to what she was told about L/O when she was cast.And it does benefit her more to consider herself Oliver's soulmate so I'm not suprised she kept pushing that all through season 3 even though the plan clearly changed since then.Everyone else had a different view of it and nothing on screen was happening to back up those claims so I always took it as what KC wished was happening instead of what the EPs were telling her.

[Happy Harpy]

As for Katie Cassidy's claims, didn't they continue throughout S3?

Yes, in S3-A IIRC, just when they didn't know how R/F and Laurel as BC would be received. And in S3-B, she said once at a fan convention (?) that people should campaign if they wanted O/L (answered with a stunned silence)...which I find very interesting. Then she changed her discourse to "Laurel doesn't need a man".

I've always been certain that she repeated what the EPs told her. Now, maybe they lied to her until she was settled in her mask, in order to soften the blow of losing half of her promised role.

 

Changing of LI/leading lady, especially in an adaptation, especially when the former is played by a relative "name" for the network, isn't imo something that can be done easily (some Smallville fans believed for years, and got burned). For example, DC has imo given directions that revealed detrimental to the show (loss of the Suicide Squad characters) so I don't think it was 100% certain that they'd accept the change in the main romantic relationship; even though it was imo the best decision to make in the interest of the show.

 

Without the OTA partnership replacing the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle as the central relationship of the show in S1 (imo) and then Oliver/Felicity replacing Oliver/Laurel as the main romantic one, I don't think I'd still be watching Arrow. today.

[NumberCruncher]

I think that story they repeat over and over about Peter Roth [WBTV president] telling the EPs to lock EBR after he watched 103 is symptomatic that AT LEAST the studio was on the lookout for a replacement love interest right from the start. The network [who pushed for KC], and the EPs [who had a ~vision~, and, you know, EGOS] might have taken longer to agree, though.

I would say there's a strong possibility that the EPs got on board with the change in LI almost as quickly as Peter Roth, but already had 5 or 6 episodes plotted out before they could realistically switch course. By the time EBR uttered her first line, the show was knee deep into the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle so I can see why they had to finish the arc before moving on. I agree though that the network probably took longer to come around after selling KC so hard.

 

 

I think by the middle of season 1 they already decided to replace Laurel as LI.I think the whole reason they killed Tommy and rushed the Lauriver hook up as well as did it in a way that made them look bad was because they were done with Lauriver as epic star crossed soulmates.MG may say that they decided on Olicity halfway through season 2 but to me it looks like Felicity was being set up as the main LI since 2.01.

Agreed. Even though I didn't realize that they were setting up O/F back in 2x01, hindsight is 20/20. They started "sexying" up Felicity in that episode (i.e. hair, clothes), physically throwing her on top of/against Oliver in scenes, and having Felicity awkwardly catch him post-coitus in 2x06 so they could have a heart-to-heart about it later at the office. The writing was there, but I think I waved it off due to the whole canon thing. I do think they clearly backed off in the latter part of S2 so they could set up the big finish with Slade, but the O/F pairing was set into motion a lot sooner than most people think.