Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Danny Franks]

I like to think that Oliver took Felicity to the mansion because it's 20 miles out of town and would have still been standing even if Slade and ARGUS destroyed the city.  (They must have teleported because that is a long travel time when things were coming to a head.)

 

It's true that Felicity isn't the greatest actress, although with time to prepare  she does okay (e.g. in the casino and delivering the Big Belly Burger at Merlyn's office).  Felicity had offered herself as bait to the Dollmaker when there were three big guys following her to make sure she did't get hurt but this was different. I don't like the idea that Oliver was willing to use her as bait for Slade in an extremely dangerous and likely fatal situation without getting her consent even though he had plenty of time to do so on the trip over.  The stakes were huge true, but not respecting Felicity enough to get her agreement before putting her in the hands of a psychopath like Slade makes Oliver seem like a user to me. Like pre-island Oliver user even if it is dressed up in saving the city.  If he had the plan all along and didn't tell her,  after all the island and first two season's opportunity for growth I think he would be irredeemable for me.

 

Well, ain't that one of the reasons the episode was called "Unthinkable"? Of the many unthinkable things that were done, one of Oliver's was that he had to offer up Felicity as bait to trap Slade. Did he want to do it? No. Was it a horrible thing to do to her? Yes. Was it necessary to defeat Slade? Unless someone came up with a better plan, yes it was.

 

No one ever said being a hero would be easy. For Oliver or for Felicity. You have to make sacrifices, and sometimes those sacrifices don't just cost you, but they cost other people as well.

 

I have no problems with Oliver doing what he did, because it was all set up well in advance. He couldn't beat Slade by conventional means. Slade was too strong, Slade had a small army of similarly strong footsoldiers. Slade had outsmarted Oliver at every turn, and had demonstrated just how vulnerable Oliver and the people he cared about were. It was Felicity herself who suggested that they had to change tactics, because everything they'd tried so far had failed. Oliver had to be devious, he had to be calculating, and he had to take a horrendous risk. If he couldn't do those things, then chances are he and Felicity and Diggle and Laurel and anyone else who he cared about would not have lived a whole lot longer.

 

And moving away from Oliver's side of things for a moment, I think it was a shining moment for Felicity. She was being asked to do something truly dangerous, to put herself directly into the hands of a psychopath who wants to hurt anyone Oliver cares about, and she didn't flinch. She is in this with Oliver, she's a part of his team, and she will do what it takes to get the job done. Rather than saying Oliver is a user, you could say that he understands this about her, and that he had faith that she would be prepared to do this, just as he was. And rather than undermining their connection and the balance of their relationship, you could say it actually reinforces it, because the trust he had in her to succeed was solid as a rock. He didn't take the time to explain or talk about how it would play out, or tell her she had to be strong. He believed that she would understand all of that, and that she would find a way to make it work. And she did. It played out perfectly. She didn't panic or reveal her true intentions, and she took her chance (with wonderful dramatic timing, of course) without hesitating.

[quarks]

What I REALLY wanna know is what the hell did they talk about in the drive from the city to the mansion. Isn't it 20 minutes away from the city? Did Felicity just pester Oliver with questions he refused to answer? :)

 

 

My completely unsupported fanwank for this is that they were on the motorcycle and they couldn't hear each other. I am aware that this completely contradicts all of the other times they've had no problems talking while Oliver is on the motorcycle, but in this case, er (searches desperately for an explanation that makes any sense whatsoever - wait, got it!)  Felicity was behind Oliver and had her face buried in his jacket so she couldn't talk! There you go!

 

A more reasonable explanation is that Felicity had her nose buried in her tablet, updating Oliver on stuff, and didn't think to pay attention to where they were going, and the actual explanation is that the writers just jumped over all of the transportation considerations for this episode, but these explanations don't put Felicity on a motorcycle so I'm ignoring them. 

[icandigit]

 

they were on the motorcycle and they couldn't hear each other

Works for me,

[wonderwall]

I think that when they were on their way to the mansion, Oliver was warring with himself going all:

 

"It's the only way"

"You f*ckin idiot"

"She will understand"

"Ugh I'm such trash" 

[Password]

Didn't they have their comms in their ears though? Or is it just Oliver that has his at all times in his suit?

 

I don't think anyone will take away from Felicity's MVP status in the episode. It's more to do with Oliver's motivations for doing it in that manner. There are different ways to look at it. His connection with Felicity is such that they need not communicate with verbosity, thus their being partners is reinforced. Or he took advantage in a most cold and calculating manner that would take even Slade by surprise. I think there is a case for both points of view to be honest. Hopefully, it won't be brushed under the carpet in s3.

 

I did notice at one point Oliver was kind of shaking in his place, not unlike in Deathstroke after they found out Thea was kidnapped.

[dtissagirl]

My completely unsupported fanwank for this is that they were on the motorcycle and they couldn't hear each other. I am aware that this completely contradicts all of the other times they've had no problems talking while Oliver is on the motorcycle, but in this case, er (searches desperately for an explanation that makes any sense whatsoever - wait, got it!)  Felicity was behind Oliver and had her face buried in his jacket so she couldn't talk! There you go!

I completely forgot the bike! It makes complete sense, yeah. Now I'm mad we were deprived of the awesome imagery of Oliver and Felicity together in a motorcycle. :)

[KirkB]

I've got one. Felicity did have a head wound no one seemed in hurry to even put a band aid on. Maybe she passed out and woke up as they were pulling up in front of the mansion?

[wonderwall]

Check out this awesome parallel!

 

It's really interesting because at that point, Shado was Oliver's hallucination, his subconscious that was conveying his inner most feelings. Deep down, Oliver wanted to give up, however Felicity then tells Oliver that he isn't done fighting (as though she's trying to keep Oliver's darkness at bay). Felicity understands Oliver, and even though he wants to give up, she knows he will never forgive himself if he does. In that scene pushes Oliver and makes him believe in himself and to never stop fighting because that's not what heroes do. 

 

LOL you may proceed to kill me because I really love these two

[statsgirl]

It's interesting, because in Three Ghosts, Shado and Slade were the false hallucinations (as in false gods), and Tommy was the real one.

 

It's also curious that both Slade and Oliver hallucinated Shado, and in both cases Shado told them what they wanted to hear. For Slade, it was to keep fighting Oliver, and for Oliver it was to give up fighting.  Never trust what a hallucination says, go to the real people instead.

 

 

At this point, Oliver sighs again and squares his shoulders. The physical moments he makes with his shoulders suggests to me that only THEN did he decide to go through the plan - after she had told him that she didn't want to be left behind and safe. And after he says, "Do you understand?" Felicity agrees.

That's what I thought too. And also that Oliver took them on his motor cycle to the Manor so no chance for conversation, but a lot of time for him to think on his own and run through plans.  Have we ever seen him drive a car yet?  Where would he get a car?  Wouldn't the Queen limo have been repossessed?

 

 

I have no problems with Oliver doing what he did, because it was all set up well in advance.offering Felicity up as bait was unthinkable...Oliver had to be devious, he had to be calculating, and he had to take a horrendous risk.

It was a good plan, even if it was a Hail Mary pass, and I have no problem with the plan itself.  .  And Felicity did agree to it, luckily for them both.

 

My problem is whether Oliver knew ahead of time, as he was taking Felicity to Queen Manor, that he was going to do the Unthinkable and use her as bait, and if he did, did he tell her or ask her if it was okay with her to do it.  It was a horrendous risk, especially for Felicity, and when you're setting up someone to risk their lives to save others, you ask them first if they're willing to do it.   You don't set the person up as the bait and then at the last minute thrust a syringe in their hand and ask "Do you understand?"  and assume she goes for it.   It was a great moment for Felicity, to finally be an important part of the team in the field, but did Oliver respect her agency, or was he using her without giving her a chance to decline?  If it was a last minute decision when she said she wanted to be unsafe with them, I'm okay with it. But if he knew on the way over and didn't tell her and find out if she was willing, that's a different scenario.

 

Someone needs to go to a con and ask Stephen Amell when Oliver made the decision to go for the Unthinkable.

[BkWurm1]

If it was a last minute decision when she said she wanted to be unsafe with them, I'm okay with it. But if he knew on the way over and didn't tell her and find out if she was willing, that's a different scenario.

 

I think it's both.

 

I think he went to the mansion with the plan in mind but it seems from the way he was trying to leave her and walk out the door that he faltered and couldn't bring himself to execute the plan. 

 

To do what he did was unthinkable and I think for Oliver it was also unaskable, truly unspeakable. 

 

Why didn't he tell her the plan ahead of time?  Maybe because telling her the plan would make the plan happen.  Saying it aloud would let it be too real and all the ways it could go wrong would be hitting him over the head and to ask her was unthinkable and impossible and he just IMO in the end couldn't do it.

 

But it was the only way, the only chance they had to outthink Slade so when Felicity objected to being left behind somewhere safe, he followed his gut and went with his "I can't even bring myself to say it aloud" plan. 

 

He wasn't so much using Felicity's feelings against her but using their feelings against them.  The "love you" felt like it slipped out without his consent, like they were words he had to say because of the risk and could say because of the ruse.  The non denial on the beach is as good as a confirmation to me.   

Edited June 13, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Morrigan2575]

Apparently the cut kiss is somewhat confirmed.  Since the EPs weren't answering the question on twitter fans started asking the Paps/set stalkers/autograph hounds (not sure what to call them) and they confirmed there was a kiss on the call sheet and the call sheet also had Slade dying.  So it does appear as though a kiss was planned for the mansion scene but got cut.  Of course nothing is certain unless someone formally answers and I doubt that will happen.

 

Personally, I'm glad they cut it, the scene worked perfectly as it, it was an very emotionally powerful scene and I think the beauty of the scene would have gotten lost in the kiss...if that makes any sense.

[tv echo]

I agree with what Danny Franks and some others have said above.  A few additional thoughts.

 

Maybe Oliver also didn't tell Felicity ahead of time because he knew that, if he then changed his mind and couldn't go through with it, Felicity would take it upon herself to go through with the ruse on her own (now that he'd given her the idea).

 

Even if Oliver changed his mind, I don't think he would've left Felicity alone in the Queen mansion because:  

 

(1) Even if he left her there to keep her safe, he knew Slade would've seen him do it.  So even if Slade wasn't aware of the depth of his feelings for Felicity, he would know Oliver cared enough about Felicity to take time out from the crisis to store her somewhere "safe" and Slade already knew Felicity helped Oliver as the Arrow.

 

(2) Oliver didn't tell Felicity the mansion was bugged by Slade.  So leaving her there uninformed, Felicity would've still tried to help out the team using her laptop and communicating with the others, perhaps talking of sensitive information that shouldn't be overheard by Slade.

 

Maybe we're just over-analyzing a scene the writers put together for the most dramatic appeal (without thinking through the logic of it) and the EPs are just happy with all the buzz/discussion that's been generated by it.

Edited June 13, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

Maybe we're just over-analyzing a scene the writers put together for the most dramatic appeal (without thinking through the logic of it) and the EPs are just happy with all the buzz/discussion that's been generated by it.

This. I think we're analyzing that scene to death and the way it was handled had no foresight from the EPs other than it would be a major talking point and it creates buzz.

[dtissagirl]

Even if Oliver changed his mind, I don't think he would've left Felicity alone in the Queen mansion because:  

 

(1) Even if he left her there to keep her safe, he knew Slade would've seen him do it.  So even if Slade wasn't aware of the depth of his feelings for Felicity, he would know Oliver cared enough about Felicity to take time out from the crisis to store her somewhere "safe" and Slade already knew Felicity helped Oliver as the Arrow.

 

(2) Oliver didn't tell Felicity the mansion was bugged by Slade.  So leaving her there uninformed, Felicity would've still tried to help out the team using her laptop and communicating with the others, perhaps talking of sensitive information that shouldn't be overheard by Slade.

 

Maybe we're just over-analyzing a scene the writers put together for the most dramatic appeal (without thinking through the logic of it) and the EPs are just happy with all the buzz/discussion that's been generated by it.

 

 

But I think Oliver had to have told Felicity the mansion was bugged. I mean, the only reason he took her there was because he knew the place was bugged. If Felicity hadn't known about it, she wouldn't have understood the plan when Oliver passed her the syringe. And she clearly got what he was asking of her.

 

Still, I agree that the writers didn't think any of this through. They staged that scene for maximum shock value and emotional reaction, and not much else. There was really no logistics plan involved. *g*

 

 

Also, I love Twitter fans for going to the paps for questions when the EPs won't answer them. Hee. Great investigative work, everyone! I'm glad they cut the kiss. It would be both too soon and too manipulative. I liked how Amell said the "I love you" like Oliver couldn't help but say it... but a kiss would have been too much.

[quarks]

I don't know that she needed to be told that the place was bugged? After all, Oliver didn't exactly spell out the details of the rest of the plan, either, and "Wait until I get there and give you the verbal signal to stab him in the neck with a syringe" is slightly more important, I think, than spelling out "Oh, and this particular place is bugged." I think he trusted her to figure the rest out, especially since they both knew Slade had been spying on them and watching them in other locations; it's another sign that Oliver trusts Felicity's intelligence. 

[BkWurm1]

Maybe we're just over-analyzing a scene the writers put together for the most dramatic appeal (without thinking through the logic of it) and the EPs are just happy with all the buzz/discussion that's been generated by it.

Yes this but the meta intent stops mattering once it goes up,on screen and then we are left with understanding it from the character's standpoint.

Even if Oliver changed his mind, I don't think he would've left Felicity alone in the Queen mansion because:

(1) Even if he left her there to keep her safe, he knew Slade would've seen him do it. So even if Slade wasn't aware of the depth of his feelings for Felicity, he would know Oliver cared enough about Felicity to take time out from the crisis to store her somewhere "safe" and Slade already knew Felicity helped Oliver as the Arrow.

(2) Oliver didn't tell Felicity the mansion was bugged by Slade. So leaving her there uninformed, Felicity would've still tried to help out the team using her laptop and communicating with the others, perhaps talking of sensitive information that shouldn't be overheard by Slade.

I think once Oliver covertly handed Felicity the syringe she figured out the mansion was bugged, but not before. Figuring out the mansion was bugged was just a part of figuring out Oliver's "ruse" and subsequent unthinkable plan. It's a lot to expect of a person but I can buy Felicity pulling it off.

I don't think that Oliver leaving Felicity at the mansion automatically meant she was a target anymore than her working with him made her a target. At that late stage in the game Oliver was taking a gamble that Slade was even monitoring the empty queen mansion. Even if Slade saw Felicity left behind out of the way there would not be any reason to think she was so very special beyond what Slade already knew about her working for Oliver and clearly from the lair break in he knew she was not a fighter and perhaps could be assumed not important at that end stage.

Like I said it was a big assumption to hope Slade would pause in the middle of his plans and the actual fight to take down all of Starling city That he'd go,after someone very tangential to his purposes. It would be like him going after Quentin. Just not very important ...until Oliver made Felicity impossible bait to ignore...again assuming anybody was still watching the feed of one room in a giant empty house in the middle of a war.

As for Felicity giving away Intel should Oliver have not pushed through with the plan and instead just left her somewhere safe, I have to assume he would have addressed that when it came up, still the real truth is that despite what I saw as Oliver losing his nerve to do the plan, he was there to do the plan. Plan b "just leaving her safe" couldn't happen.

Edited June 13, 2014 by BkWurm1

[KirkB]

I kind of figured the reason they (presumably) hadn't discussed the plan was that Oliver didn't know what all Slade had bugged. He knew for a fact the mansion was, and where it was, which is why they went not just to the house but that particular spot. But he didn't want to risk spelling out his plan to Felicity anywhere else, even in the car on the way to the house, in case there was a bug he missed.

[calliope1975]

Someone needs to go to a con and ask Stephen Amell when Oliver made the decision to go for the Unthinkable.

 

 

EBR has said Felicity did not know the plan in advance. But that might be her interpretation of the scene and not SA's. 

 

Personally, I'm glad they cut it, the scene worked perfectly as it, it was an very emotionally powerful scene and I think the beauty of the scene would have gotten lost in the kiss...if that makes any sense.

 

 

I'm also glad the kiss (if it existed) was cut. The "I love you" was stretching it for me simply because Oliver knows how Felicity feels about him. I do think the ILY was unintentional and that he meant it. I also think it's kinda douchey. And even though I'm glad the kiss was cut doesn't mean I don't want to see it. And watch it in a loop. I'm just saying it better be on the DVDs.

 

I also think the entire mansion scene was a great character moment for both Oliver and Felicity. He got to fully trust someone to be there for him and she got to step up and be a hero. Both EBR and SA were excellent as well.

 

I know the episode was already jam packed, but I would have loved to see more of Slade and Felicity. That's an interaction I'm bummed we missed.  

[icandigit]

 

He wasn't so much using Felicity's feelings against her but using their feelings against them.

That's what I was thinking in the beach scene when he said "we both did".

[writersblock51]

If Felicity didn't know the mansion was bugged as she and Oliver talked, then I think she may have suspected it once Slade's goons got her and brought her to... wherever the final confrontation was.

 

 

He wasn't so much using Felicity's feelings against her but using their feelings against them.

I agree with this, too.

 

So far the only 'source' I've read about in terms of the kiss on the call sheet is Cananagraphs, and I know some Twitter folks take his words with a grain of salt.

 

As for as the call sheet also saying that Slade 'died' - on the frieghter, he did.  At least, as far as Oliver was concerned.

 

So perhaps the call sheet was right about the kiss.

 

I'm glad it wasn't included either - or, perhaps it was a lingering kiss on the forehead or something.  And there was no mention of it, obviously, on the island at the end.  I think Felicity's reaction on the island would have been more confused or possibly even hurt if a kiss had taken place.

[JayKay]

If Felicity had decided that Oliver was a little bit of a jerk for not prepping or at least hinting of his plan beforehand, I would find their whole dynamic more interesting. But when they were talking on the beach I didn't read her as having giving much thought to what happened apart from "Does he actually like me?" so that scene fell flat for me. In fact, I wish that whole conversation had gone differently. I appreciate that Oliver knows how valuable an asset she is as a teammate, and I think it's great that he put saving the world ahead of some potential romantic entanglement, but I don't think it's necessarily a healthy thing for Felicity to invest emotionally in him so much.

 

Had the climax of Slade's revenge not been based on twu wuv, Diggle could have been in Felicity's place, and he would have at least punched Oliver in the arm or something afterward. I wish Felicity was like "It means a lot that you trusted me to be brave and intelligent enough to be the linchpin to your Hail Mary play. But also, you get to spend the last $3 to your name on my slurpee. Do you understand?" Cue smiles and them walking away together. Eh, I guess I just dislike the way their relationship was handled with so much unnecessary schmalz at the end, since they were at their most charming to me back when her acute awareness of his bullshit made him shift gears all the time.

[dtissagirl]

I can buy that they filmed a kiss because in the flashback Felicity and Oliver are standing a lot closer together than they were in the real-time scene. Here's a comparison from Tumblr:

 

http://game-of-smoak-and-arrows.tumblr.com/post/88642108314/you-know-what-now-that-i-think-about-it-the-big

 

But I'm still glad they cut it.

[Password]

I appreciate that Oliver knows how valuable an asset she is as a teammate, and I think it's great that he put saving the world ahead of some potential romantic entanglement, but I don't think it's necessarily a healthy thing for Felicity to invest emotionally in him so much.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I only hope/assume it's addressed in s3. Their relationship is really unbalanced romantically and it irks me somewhat that she didn't call him out on dropping her into the lion's den.

[statsgirl]

That's Oliver though, or it is at this time in his growth arc. In Damaged, Diggle was all "Oliver!  your mother and Thea are freaking out at the idea of your going to jail. They just got you back and now they're scared they're going to lose you again" and Oliver replies "I'm sorry about that but the mission comes first."  There's still time for him to grow out of it, another three seasons worth hopefully, but a superhero's gotta do what a superhero's gotta do.

 

And now I'm thinking of how much Diggle has invested emotionally in Oliver. Not as much as Felicity because she's invested romantically in him too, but Diggle is invested in The Mission and also in taking care of Oliver.  That's why he agreed to work with Oliver, because he wanted to protect him from having little pieces of himself shaved off.

 

Had the climax of Slade's revenge not been based on twu wuv, Diggle could have been in Felicity's place, and he would have at least punched Oliver in the arm or something afterward. I wish Felicity was like "It means a lot that you trusted me to be brave and intelligent enough to be the linchpin to your Hail Mary play. But also, you get to spend the last $3 to your name on my slurpee. Do you understand?"

I don't think Diggle would have taken it so lightly.  It's true that Diggle is Oliver's fighting partner so it wouldn't have been so unusual to expect him to go undercover like that and he's a guy and guy don't show emotions but I think Diggle would still have taken it as a huge thing rather than as something arm-punchy, although he may have covered it up whereas Felicity, being a woman, didn't.

Edited June 13, 2014 by statsgirl

[Sunshine]

I guess I don't get why people thought she should call him out. This was about stopping Slade and saving the city. It was not about saving Laurel. If it was then I could understand calling him out. In that situation you only trade a life for a life if it's yours.

She told him to let Slade outthink him. She said she wanted to help no matter how unsafe she was. I think at the end if she hadn't understood he would have taken her out of the mansion.

[JayKay]

And now I'm thinking of how much Diggle has invested emotionally in Oliver. Not as much as Felicity because she's invested romantically in him too, but Diggle is invested in The Mission and also in taking care of Oliver. That's why he agreed to work with Oliver, because he wanted to protect him from having little pieces of himself shaved off.

I don't think Diggle would have taken it so lightly. It's true that Diggle is Oliver's fighting partner so it wouldn't have been so unusual to expect him to go undercover like that and he's a guy and guy don't show emotions but I think Diggle would still have taken it as a huge thing rather than as something arm-punchy, although he may have covered it up whereas Felicity, being a woman, didn't.

I think Diggle would have retaliated in any case, from an arm punch to an ultimatum depending on how dark a light the writers would have wanted to potentially portray Oliver's "unthinkable" plan in. But the sticking point for me is that Felicity's reaction may have been muted not because she's a woman, but because she's a woman with romantic interest in the lead.

I have no problem with what Oliver did, but I just worry that Felicity's willingness to risk sacrificing herself for the greater good could get warped in the narrative if the writers don't allow her to start drawing lines. I don't doubt Felicity's dedication to the mission, but imo she and Oliver are approaching the relationship from different headspaces, and I don't want her to get hurt.

[Password]

That is the heart of the matter. In Oliver and Felicity's relationship, I don't want her to get hurt. I thought she probably reasoned within herself that she and Oliver would never be a thing, but the mansion scene sort of made her do a double take. I'm sure Oliver putting her in danger will be addressed by at least Diggle. Hopefully it doesn't become a common occurrence, making her bait like that. He did promise they would protect her, so we shall see.

[icandigit]

First I need to admit I'm totally an Oliver fangirl so my perspective is totally skewed. See I thought Oliver went all Ted Mosby when he through out that I love you. Felicity to me seemed to go from having a crush on Oliver to then being friends/liking him, I don't know if she's conscious of the fact they are falling in love, I appreciated the beach scene cause I was so glad he pulled back on the throttle.

Edited June 13, 2014 by icandigit

[Password]

I don't think Diggle would have taken it so lightly.  It's true that Diggle is Oliver's fighting partner so it wouldn't have been so unusual to expect him to go undercover like that and he's a guy and guy don't show emotions but I think Diggle would still have taken it as a huge thing rather than as something arm-punchy, although he may have covered it up whereas Felicity, being a woman, didn't.

 

I think Diggle would've at least tried to beat the snot out of Oliver.

[statsgirl]

Well Diggle is all about the mission too, so I don't know how much he would have beaten up Oliver.  Certainly he would have been down on Oliver for not letting him know what was going to happen beforehand.

 

 

I have no problem with what Oliver did, but I just worry that Felicity's willingness to risk sacrificing herself for the greater good could get warped in the narrative if the writers don't allow her to start drawing lines. I

That's a 'hopes and fears' kind of thing. If any of the female characters has been good at calling Oliver out on his crap, it's been Felicity.  She even walked off the team the episode after she first joined.  That's been one of the strengths of their relationship but bad writing can mess up all that. 

 

On the other hand, she's been more openly supportive of Oliver doing what he has to do (e.g. in Seeing Red) than Diggle has.  That may be a babbling Felicity thing rather than a love interest thing.

 

Another big difference between Diggle and Felicity is that Felicity wants desperately to prove that she can be useful in the field whereas Diggle knows that he is.  So she would be less likely to complain about Oliver using her in this case and not telling her first than Diggle would.

 

EBR has said that Felicity knows that Oliver isn't the only guy on the planet.  I'd like to think that Felicity thought after the Manor scene that there may be hope for her with Oliver, asked Diggle for a minute alone with him to check it out (in the island scene there is an exchange of nods between Felicity and Diggle before Diggle says he's going to give them a moment), tested it out but took Oliver's "we both sold it" as a 'no'.   So next season, as she did with Barry, she opens herself up to the idea of dating someone else.

 

It's really all up to Oliver right now.

Edited June 13, 2014 by statsgirl

[JayKay]

Another big difference between Diggle and Felicity is that Felicity wants desperately to prove that she can be useful in the field whereas Diggle knows that he is.  So she would be less likely to complain about Oliver using her in this case and not telling her first than Diggle would.

I took part of this over to the Team Arrow thread, because you make a good point and I don't want to go on a tangent. Hope I'm doing this whole thread-jumping thing right.

[JayKay]

From a post by statsgirl in the Relationships thread - context is a discussion on how Diggle would have reacted to a plan like Oliver's in Unthinkable compared to how Felicity did:

Another big difference between Diggle and Felicity is that Felicity wants desperately to prove that she can be useful in the field whereas Diggle knows that he is.  So she would be less likely to complain about Oliver using her in this case and not telling her first than Diggle would.

 

EBR has said that Felicity knows that Oliver isn't the only guy on the planet.  I'd like to think that Felicity thought after the Manor scene that there may be hope for her with Oliver, asked Diggle for a minute alone with him to check it out (in the island scene there is an exchange of nods between Felicity and Diggle before Diggle says he's going to give them a moment), tested it out but took Oliver's "we both sold it" as a 'no'. So next season, as she did with Barry, she opens herself up to the idea of dating someone else.

That's a really good point about Felicity's own self-worth as a Team Arrow member also playing into her reaction to being used as bait. She's out to prove herself in a way that Diggle would never consider. I know it's possible to interpret Oliver as having taken advantage of Felicity's feelings for him, but if he took advantage of her at all it was only her desire to be useful, and not her desire for him. However, imo he was only validating her drive to be a help and not abusing it anyway.

 

We've seen her go through a rough patch when Sara was in the Arrowcave and Felicity felt less-than, but by the end of the episode she had pulled her weight. So it makes Oliver's plan less shocking when you consider that she had already been heroically "vetted" by her encounter with the Clock King. Felicity didn't see herself as helpless anymore, and maybe by risking her life with Slade, Oliver was proving that he didn't either. 

 

And I can also see Felicity even inquiring about his feelings (confrontation!) being a step towards the confidence in her contributions that Diggle has as a member of Team Arrow. She's not going to quit the team if Oliver doesn't want to date her. Perhaps once she settles into the role and accepts that she absolutely belongs (and maybe we watched it happen in the season 2 finale), she could come up with a better plan than what Oliver did since she won't be seeking his approval.

 

And dating someone else who makes her feel happy and valued in addition to owning her own competence as a Team Arrow member would be the icing on the self-empowerment cake.

 

(I hope that this is the right thread for this.)

[CabotCove]

I have actually never thought about the lack of interaction between Felicity and Thea. That is too bad because it feels like she would be great help in repairing the Quinn family relationship. My guess is that they didn't go there because: showing Olicity's great chemistry + Felicity being instrumental to Ollie becoming a better person and a hero + being a great fit with his only existing family = Felicity crushing Laurel as Ollie's love interest in our eyes and his. Although it's too late for that anyway.

 

I can think of some ways Thea & Felicity could have interacted, Felicity going to see how Thea was doing after finding out Malcolm was her biological parent or being the one to tell Thea the secret since Oliver wouldn't do it for the longest time. Moira's funeral could also have been a good opportunity for both characters to interact. 

 

Team Arrow is a triumvirate, if you ask me. They can have adjunct components, people who come and help them out from time to time, or looser affiliations with Roy and Sara, but I don't want that Arrow Cave to be full of the latest character that the writers decide to throw a mask on.

It's a great dynamic, and diluting it risks hurting the show as a whole. The one character I'd be okay with being involved full time is Thea, but they've gone the stupid route with her, so that's out of the window. I think her and Felicity ganging up on Oliver would be fun, and it would solve the dual problems of neither Thea nor Felicity seemingly having any friends.

 

I have to disagree, i honestly can't see  what Thea could have brought to Team Arrow, isnt being part of the team being able to bring a certain skill/s to it?. Felicity does have friends, outside Oliver she has Diggle, Barry and the Flash gang. if we cant count Roy (since they are dating), Thea has Sin with laurel being sort of a casual friend. Not that the two can't be friends to each other and it would be good to see some new interactions and relationships. 

From my perspective, Team Arrow is depicted as mostly a duo power, Diggle's role has been decreased and is on thin ice. I personally see them as just trio than a triumvirate, and don't really see Team Arrow as exclusively a trio. If a triumvirate or a core trio is what they want and are aiming for fair enough , all they have to do is just do a better job of convincing me. I will need more showing/facts not just telling/lip service.

 

I see them this way as well. However, if the EPs are determined to insinuate Laurel into Team Arrow, I can see them trying to make Laurel "the Conscience" and/or "the Heart" since she really has no useful skills to contribute

 

.The conscience bit was already split from Diggle, I guess it could always be split further (yes I do hate Laurel).  IMO I still see Oliver Queen as the heart of the show. I guess that depends on personal interpretation.  I tend to think most leads are anyway but I could probably see exceptions to the rule. Oliver still hasnt lost it for me, yet. I just don't think you need to be perfect or close to it to be the heart of the series. I would want a show to still have its own main character as its "heart" usually, otherwise if they arent, Im probably watching a show that has shifted to be about someone else.  

 

Season 2 of Arrow demonstrated what happens when you have too many characters introduced, dropped, forgotten, sidelined, mismanaged, etc.  Stick to the core 3 as Team Arrow, with other characters as supporting or recurring characters.

 

IMO the causative root is poor writing ability, having many stories/characters was used as a solution  when the solution to poor writing is well having actual good writing ability/skill to begin with. Having many characters/stories to me just worsened the problem that was already there. They need to invest in some new good, no, great writers. I honestly don't see chopping down the cast as the only solution to a bigger problem underneath. I have to agree with Tv echo that some shows do fine with a few people in the cast (though some naturaly require big cast), having excessively too many characters/stories running around for a show thats not supposed to might be a symptom of  lack of writing confidence in the writing room, which I feel is the case with Arrow Season 2 here. I dont think that Arrow necessarily needs to only have 3 main or core characters (though I wouldnt mind if done right) provided they also urgently and primarily tackle their writing problem and insecurity. Jmo.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Conell

[CabotCove]

I love Diggle/Felicity (platonic) relationship as well as Sin/Sara. 

I wish they had shown more of Dinah & Sara reconnecting, Im looking forward to seeing Felicity's relationship with her parent/s. 

I'm not looking forward to more of Thea & Malcolm "connecting".

 

And ROY's parents and other family! Its about time we know more about him. 

Edited June 14, 2014 by Conell

[quarks]

Conell, I might not be remembering this correctly, but we were told Roy's father is in prison and his mother is thoroughly messed up, right? Not that we've seen either of them, but my impression is that Roy was from a broken home with very, very little money.

 

Given what seems to be a strong upcoming emphasis on fatherhood, we might end up seeing more of this?

[Luckylyn]

I'm fascinated by Thea getting training from Malcolm and the I assume tense father/daughter relationship that will enfold.   I have a major soft spot for John Barrowman and so am completely biased in support of things that give the man screen time.

 

One area I think the show failed is with Walter and Thea.  I was hoping to see more of their father/daughter dynamic and how Moira's death and Malcolm's return would impact it.  Season 1 showed that there was a solid bond between Walter and Thea but the show just dropped it.  I think the writers don't understand how important Walter could have been to this story line.  Of course, I just adore Walter and want more of him.  There should be more of his dynamics with Oliver and Thea that could be so interesting to explore. 

Edited June 14, 2014 by Luckylyn

[doesntworkonwood]

I love Felicity and Diggle's relationship, it's probably one of my favourite platonic relationships in the show. I love how they sort of understand each other and seem to look out for each other. Their friendship is honestly beautiful and I hope that we get more Felicity/Diggle scenes in the show. 

 

I also liked season one Oliver/Slade. I think that the growth of their brotherhood was wonderfully presented and we got to see some really great scenes from the both of them. 

[Luckylyn]

I love the Felicity/Diggle dynamic and how they care about each other.  There's a really nice comfort level between them almost like family.  I hope to see some Felicity/Lyla interaction.  I'd really love a scene of Team Arrow plus Lyla just having a meal together.

[icandigit]

Season 3 is gonna kill me. The two things I really need to happen on this show is for Oliver and Thea to reconcile and for her to know he's the arrow. Their relationship is breaking my heart.

 

Also, I love Sin relationships with Thea, Roy and Sara.

[BkWurm1]

Everything is better with Diggle.  I was surprised how little time it took for a Thea/Diggle bonding moment to happen and feel like it was the start of something real and solid.  I count the lack of follow up to that relationship as one of the shows mistakes.  I wonder if it will come up again in the future. 

[tv echo]

This is a really well-written, thoughtful and lengthy analysis of the Oliver/Felicity and Oliver/Laurel relationships based on the past two seasons of Arrow:

 

Felicity Or Laurel - Who Should Oliver End Up WIth?
Posted by Autumn Topping on June 12, 2014
http://www.silverpetticoatreview.com/2014/06/12/felicity-or-laurel-who-should-oliver-end-up-with/

 

This author expresses a lot of what I think - and much better than I ever could.  From the article:

Why do you think they [Oliver and Felicity] work so well together?
Marc Guggenheim: They have wonderful chemistry, which I know is probably the obvious answer. The less obvious answer is I think Felicity’s attraction to him is so obvious but also so pure, that…. it feels more like love than sex. I think people seem to respond to that.
Source: OK Magazine

From my own perspective and Arrow experience, I find the Oliver and Felicity story to be stronger thus far on a romantic level. Executive Producer Marc Guggenheim hits the nail right on the head on why the connection between Oliver and Felicity appeals to so many. I do think it is because of the purity of their love. In a way, I recognize a strong influence there from The X Files and Doctor Who (Doctor and Rose). I see subtlety, ambiguity, depth, and a soul connection comparable to the love between Scully and Mulder. To me, it is about the slow build up and friendship, something I ‘typically’ appreciate more than rushed relationships. It is about the human connection rather than merely a sexual one.

As for Laurel, the reason I don't think her relationship works with Oliver is because I feel that the Laurel/Oliver relationship is toxic....   I actually like Laurel best when her story is outside of Oliver and centered on her family and her own self-destructive behavior. Now that she’s let “the darkness” in, where will her story take her?

There are also comparisons made to Smallville, La Femme Nikita, and even Pride and Prejudice.  You need to read the entire article, though, especially if you're an Olicity fan.

Edited June 15, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

I've been thinking about Laurel's speech in 2x21 when she banished Felicity and Diggle in the Arrowcave. I'm thinking they gave Laurel that nonsense about knowing Oliver like her own name and knowing him in his bones and knowing he never gives up, on purpose. There's no other reason they'd give her such bold statements that hold no water. Then Felicity says he's not done fighting and lists the villains he's overcome. What she says makes sense because it's built on fact.

 

Maybe Felicity's pep talk needed to be even more awesome than it was by letting Laurel's be awful.

[icandigit]

http://www.silverpetticoatreview.com/2014/06/12/felicity-or-laurel-who-should-oliver-end-up-with/

 

 

The “bait and switch” was just one way of bringing them closer and bringing Oliver's feelings closer to the surface, which is interesting for a character so closed off to humanity.

Great article. Finally someone who was able to put into words how I felt about that scene.

 

 

There's definitely a "little" of the Beauty and the Beast archetype in there as well, Felicity bringing light to the monstrous beast within him.

 

Great so I'm not so crazy. At least one other person is seeing what I'm seeing.

 

 

Moreover, after Felicity’s confrontation of Oliver’s declaration, Oliver doesn’t even deny his feelings or claim he just cared about her as a friend.  Instead, he just smiles, leaving it purposely ambiguous. For those who root for this relationship, I would say that is a good thing because 1) the romantic subtlety is always stronger than literal hammers when it comes to long term TV build-ups (if you can write well that is)...

That blog is really making me happy right now.

Edited June 15, 2014 by icandigit

[Password]

I brought this over from the Hope and Fears thread

 

 

a good argument can be made that comic book canon has already been satisfied because Oliver and Laurel (if she becomes the Canary) have already gotten together and broken up a few times.

 

Oliver and Laurels (with Sara thrown in) is a really unhealthy relationship. It made me think of other such unhealthy break up to make up relationships. Can anyone think of other similar relationships? Perhaps there's a method to this madness.

 

Chuck and Blair.

[Velocity23]

Lol i just realized Celina Jade is an Olicity shipper. 

[Password]

Yes but Chuck and Blair were so much more fun to watch. I won't life, Chair was a messed up relationship but I couldn't get enough of them.

[Danny Franks]

I guess I don't get why people thought she should call him out. This was about stopping Slade and saving the city. It was not about saving Laurel. If it was then I could understand calling him out. In that situation you only trade a life for a life if it's yours.

She told him to let Slade outthink him. She said she wanted to help no matter how unsafe she was. I think at the end if she hadn't understood he would have taken her out of the mansion.

 

Agreed. Again, the theme was 'people doing things they never thought they'd do'.

 

Diggle - siding with Deadshot

Lyla - turning on Waller

Sara - going back to the LoA

Quentin - fighting side by side with Nyssa and then letting Sara go

Laurel - who cares?

Thea - leaving with Malcolm

 

So Oliver exposing Felicity to that danger, and to the potential hurt of him claiming feelings for her, seems to be the most unthinkable thing he did in the episode. Same goes for Felicity, because she went along with the plan, and put herself in the hands of a madman.

 

Why do you think they [Oliver and Felicity] work so well together?

Marc Guggenheim: They have wonderful chemistry, which I know is probably the obvious answer. The less obvious answer is I think Felicity’s attraction to him is so obvious but also so pure, that…. it feels more like love than sex. I think people seem to respond to that.

Source: OK Magazine

 

 

Hmm. I like his line of thinking here, in that I do think people have picked up on how 'different' Oliver/Felicity is from any other relationships that Oliver has been in. At the moment, obviously, it's far more emotional than physical, which is probably very unusual for Oliver Queen. But then I ask myself, 'if Guggenheim thinks this feels more like love, then what exactly does he think Oliver/Laurel feels like?' Hopefully like sour milk, ready to be poured down the sink and washed away.

[Starfish35]

Response moved from the Spoilers thread.

Here's my thing about Oliver and Laurel and Felicity, and my apologies if I've said this before here. I'm not sure what I've said here and what I've said elsewhere.

To me, their determination to make Laurel Black Canary in spite of everything means that the basic original gameplan is still in play. And that means Lauriver. If they had shown a willingness to deviate from the plan by keeping Sara as Black Canary and doing something else with Laurel, either Manhunter or writing her out completely, I would say, ok, sure, they've scrapped the original plan and we're working from a new script now. Anything's possible. But they didn't. In spite of everything that happened this season and against all logic and reason they still (apparently) made Laurel Black Canary. And I just can't believe they would do that if they didn't also intend for Oliver and Laurel to eventually get back together. Why have Laurel be the one to "reach him in his darkest hour?" It might be in season four or five, but if they're that determined to follow through on the Black Canary front than I think they eventually will on the Lauriver front as well.

I get the argument on the other side - that Laurel being Black Canary doesn't necessarily mean a return to Oliver/Laurel. For one thing, if I understand correctly, in the comics, Dinah Laurel Lance may not always have been with Oliver, but she was always Black Canary, and who knows, maybe that's the logic the writers are working from. But I can't help thinking that if Laurel does end up as a fully-fledged Black Canary next year (no matter how illogical that is), the writers won't be able to resist making another Arrow/Canary battle team with her and Oliver like they did with him and Sara, thus leading to them spending more time together and eventually ending back up back in a relationship. I don't know. Maybe it won't happen that way. But it's just really hard for me to imagine Laurel being Black Canary and being on the team, and them not be trying to throw in Lauriver anvils.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Starfish35

[Password]

Why have Laurel be the one to "reach him in his darkest hour?"

 

I had a coughing fit when I read this.

 

I agree that just the fact that Laurel, a character that has no purpose on the show, is still there is enough proof to me that Lauriver is not just on the cards, but has never been off the table. That and a healthy dose of fear/anxiety.

[Orion]

I've seen the EPs mention in interviews that they acknowledge that there is a problem with the Laurel character and then follow that statement with something along lines of she's isolated by not being involved in the Arrow part of the story. That once people find out Oliver's secret it becomes really fun to write for them. I think S3 is their Hail Mary play with Laurel/Lauriver. Stick her into the action, give Felicity a love interest that hopefully distracts people from Olicity and try one more time for Laurel/Oliver. Which all boils down to them not understanding the fundamental flaws that Lauriver/Laurel have already built into the storyline.  I'm still convinced that they think the problem most viewers have with Lauriver/Laurel is Olicity. And that's where the disconnect is happening. The problem chicken (Laurel/Oliver) most definitely came before the egg (Olicity) in this case. People went looking for another romantic option for Oliver because Lauriver fell flat out of the gate. But they'll try again, one last time, before they thrown in the towel. How they will retcon back after the "I love you," since he's never said those words flat out like that to anyone else on the show, I have no idea but they'll try.