Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[looptab]

Do these people understand how bisexuality works? At all? 

 

Anyway, I hope MG was just offering that Tumblr user a little something to cling to and that they're not going the Laurel is bi route. Not that I'm against more representation on this show or anything like that - I'm totally pro that, but it seems like it would be a step too far in the "am I my sister?" mess that is Laurel's issue this year. 

I don't think they do. And yes, I completely agree with you.  It's  just these people's reasoning to be against it that makes me want them to be bitch-slapped  with an epic love story between Laurel and Nyssa. 

But, hey, they at least conceded that of course  Nyssa would be all over Laurel. Because she is gorgeous or something.

 

 

Let me guess, this person was theapplefour? :p 

 

Surprisingly though, a lot of neutral people on comment sections like in the AV Club are totally for it. So, really, it has nothing to do with Olicity. 

 

I can't help the hate-reading :P Yeah, I saw those other comments, too. I don't know what to make of them. But, to these people, Olicity is the cause of all evil, so of course they'd jump on this. :/

[wonderwall]

I can't help the hate-reading :P Yeah, I saw those other comments, too. I don't know what to make of them. But, to these people, Olicity is the cause of all evil, so of course they'd jump on this. :/

 

This too makes me want them to be bitch slapped with an epic Nyssa/Laurel love story. *sigh* Typical ship war stuff, I suppose :p 

[Ariah]

A big fat "NO" from me concerning a Laurel/Nyssa romance.

Nyssa deserves so much better. She's too awesome to be dragged down by a moody, self-centered girl with identity issues.

 

But I could get behind a Nyssa/Thea romance (If it so happen that Thea's heart was free).

[tennisgurl]

That would be a big fat NO from me to a romance between Laurel and Nyssa. Totally cool with them bonding and becoming friends, because I think her scenes with Nyssa are ones where Laurel actually works as a character, but NO to a romance. Not because Laurel cant be bi. Being bi is just fine. LGBT representation on this show would be great, and if they brought in a woman as Laurels new love interest, that would be awesome. But not with Nyssa. Sara and Laurel already basically swapped Oliver back and fourth, it would just be creepy to have Laurel, who is so neurotic about living up to her sisters memory and becoming Black Canary, hook up with her sisters ex girlfriend. No more Lance Sister partner swapping! 

 

And I cant see Nyssa being ready to move on anytime soon. She`s clearly still totally hung up on Sara. 

[manbearpig]

I don't think the show will have someone sleeping with their sibling's ex after similar storylines have been criticised in the past. It made the Oliver/Sara/Laurel dynamic toxic for a while and after season one they backed away from Diggle/Carly pretty quickly. I'm all for more Laurel/Nyssa interaction but I can't see them as a couple. I'd like to see them continue to bond over Sara, though.

[Guest]

STOP LANCE SISTERS SHARING SEX PARTNERS 2K15.

 

That's pretty much all I have to say about that.

[statsgirl]

Irrespective of gender issues and what seems to be the obligatory lesbian relationship on TV shows these days (Murdoch Mysteries, I'm looking at you), I'm against a sexual relationship between Laurel and Nyssa because it means Laurel will have taken everything of Sara's.  I can accept a friendship because it makes sense in terms of the type of people the characters are (which is not true for Laurel and Felicity) and Laurel really hasn't had anyone of her own other than her father since Tommy died.  Too bad JR Ramirez got another show and Arrow didn't tie him up because Wildcat was supposed to be Laurel's love interest this season, per MG.

 

I think Oliver and Felicity should get together if only to keep Oliver from being written like an idiot.

 

On another note, now that the high from the episode has gone, I'm dubious about Felicity's line "As long as you're in my life, I'm happy". I don't even know why. It's a beautiful line, but I don't know if I'm glad they chose to insert it in this particular moment in time between them. There also might be a part of me that wanted him to say it to her, instead. I don't know, haha.

 

Maybe because the subtext with Felicity is "I've been so unhappy since you shut me out these past months that I'm willing to do whatever it takes just so that you'll be in my life", which is the very opposite of the strong  Felicity that people love.  I'm glad she said that they only reason they're not together is because that's what he decided.

 

If it were Oliver saying it to Felicity, it would partly be an apology for how he's pushed her away this season because he was being an idiot, which I think he really needs to say.

 

The show loves making Oliver have his head up his ass, as MG said they get a lot of mileage from it.  But this season they've gone too far because while Oliver's always been controlling, his treatment of Thea and Felicity has moved into being more about him than about them.  Ever since Thea found out that Malcolm drugged her to kill Sara, she's adamantly told Oliver that she wants nothing to do with Malcolm, she's even gone so far as to turn him in to the LoA so they can kill him. But there he is on her sofa because Oliver has decided that he (Oliver) knows better than Thea what she needs and he refuses to listen to her.  Nothing Thea does or says will make any difference, Oliver is doing what he decided is right for his now-adult sister. Thank goodness she has Roy (since Walter has apparently disappeared from the Arrow universe) because if she didn't have Roy to talk her down, I could see her standing on a bridge wondering why she shouldn't jump off.

 

With Felicity, it's the dangling maybes.  Oliver made the decision not to be in a relationship with her for reasons but he needs respect her request to stop with the dangling maybes because while they make him feel better to be able to tell her how he feels about her ("And you know how I feel about her" and "two things I know"), it hurts Felicity every time he does it because he's reminding her he loves her but rejecting her.  Even without her history of emotional rejection, that's just wrong.

 

It's okay for Malcolm Merlyn to emotionally manipulate Thea because he's a villain. It's not okay for Oliver albeit unwittingly, to do the same.

 

However, there were a couple of things in 316 that made me look at the romance arc from inside the text, thank you Brian Ford Sullivan for still writing a tiny bit of character-driven story. Oliver's "I should have called" and "you don't owe me" at QC, and then Felicity telling him to his face that the only reason they're not together is because Oliver chose it so made me see that Oliver and Felicity have insanely huge amounts of respect for each other. They respect the other's choices -- even when they don't agree with them. And that's what I took from this episode. The foundation of their relationship, platonic or not, is still there, because of that respect.

 

Yes.  It shows that Oliver is growing and learning from his mistakes.  Without those scenes, all the giving in is on Felicity's part  Also, if they're going to redeem Oliver by the end of the season, it has to start now.

So, if Oliver had heard Felicity out and then still gone and done what he felt like he needed to do in that moment, her sleeping with Ray would've still been his fault? Because what you're advocating for here isn't him considering her opinion, it's doing what she wants him to. Seems like that's a lot of what the issue is here, that he's not doing what she wants him to?

We've moved beyond this but just a quick answer -- Felicity could have gone to Ray and slept with him because she felt a responsibility to him, and wanted to make love to him. Or she could have gone because she felt excluded by Oliver and Diggle and  he was the only person she felt who respected her judgement enough to listen to her. If Oliver and Diggle had included her in their talk, it would have been the former, even if they didn't do what she argued for (they've disregarded her advice in the past too). As it was, with her closest friends excluding her, she ended up with Ray because it seemed like he was the only one who wanted her.

 

Just being heard is a huge emotional thing. There's a reason why a big part of marriage and family counseling is having person A say their piece, and then person B repeats it so that A knows they've been heard.

[Danny Franks]

There's nothing textual to support ot but there's a hell of a lot of subtext and art work that supports Babs/Dinah OTP.

There's also Gail Simone's view that Dinah was 75% Hetero...ironically that whole topic was due to a BoP issue dealing with Talia Al Ghul and her sexual/seductive aspects leading men to ruin.

 

And under Chuck Dixon's pen, all of that subtext was categorically accidental, because he's an admitted homophobe. I think Gail Simone based a lot of her take on the character on the groundwork that Dixon somehow managed to lay.

 

But I think the potentially bisexual side of the character has been explored well enough with Sara, and it'd be nice if she gets to have just one thing that Laurel doesn't steal from her corpse, even if it's only her sexuality. Also? Nyssa can do so much better than her dead ex-girlfriend's sister. But I still wound't be surprised if the writers went there. For three reasons:

 

1. Titillation. I mean, girls making out, right? Am I right? Huh? It's hot, right?

2. To thumb their noses at some of the criticism they took for killing off the only LGBT character on the show who made more than a handful of appearances

3. Because they have this disturbing obsession with quasi-incest, and seem to never pass up an opportunity to go there. The only time they didn't was when the actors were actually practically offering it up, with Stephen and Willa having some ooky chemistry early in season 1. 

[looptab]

Maybe because the subtext with Felicity is "I've been so unhappy since you shut me out these past months that I'm willing to do whatever it takes just so that you'll be in my life", which is the very opposite of the strong  Felicity that people love.  I'm glad she said that they only reason they're not together is because that's what he decided.

If it were Oliver saying it to Felicity, it would partly be an apology for how he's pushed her away this season because he was being an idiot, which I think he really needs to say.

 No, it's not really that to me. The subtext I read was "Thank God you made the right decision", and her letting him know that he's important to her doesn't seem to be opposite to the usual Felicity, or weak. I don't know why it bothers me, though. Maybe I would have preferred it at  a time when they were on more solid ground, instead of having just reconciled. 

[apinknightmare]

 No, it's not really that to me. The subtext I read was "Thank God you made the right decision", and her letting him know that he's important to her doesn't seem to be opposite to the usual Felicity, or weak. I don't know why it bothers me, though. Maybe I would have preferred it at  a time when they were on more solid ground, instead of having just reconciled. 

 

 

I agree. And after a long run of self-destructive decision making, she wanted to let him know that she was glad he chose to stay in Starling and not give up on his mission, and it was probably a not-so-subtle message to let him know that she hopes he continues choosing that path. 

[kismet]

I hope that there is only a friendship between nyssa & laurel because it would take too much from sara's memory. But I could see them attempting to have laurel kiss her, but then nyssa backing off and saying that she still misses & loves sara. That way they can have ll attempting bi so they can have it as option in future. But honestly I think they will just bypass a romantic relationship between nyssa & ll. My guess is ll will have to wait for s4 to have love interest. If ray hadnt needed so much help with his suit, I would have thought they made a good couple 2 newbie vigilante finding their inner heroes.

[statsgirl]

I think the causation goes in the other direction -- they wanted Ray to be liked therefore he needed help with his suit so he could be in Felicity's orbit (and going by the number of posts that liked Raylicity, I think it worked).  Pairing him with Laurel wouldn't have done the character many favors.

[BkWurm1]

Just spent waaaaay too long catching up on a months worth of posts in this thread.  I avoided it during the hiatus because while I could accept and understand what happened between Felicity and Ray (I also am anti typing their cutesy portmanteau) I didn't enjoy it so I just avoided the thread.  I had so much to say and wrote out so many responses only, lol, to keep reading and find out some lovely soul said just what I was going to say.  So that saves a looooot of time.  There are still a few things though.  :)

 

Statsgirl:

. 

[Oliver as] Clark Gable I don't see at all, unless they're thinking of the stairway scene in Gone With The Wind.  Or maybe it was because Clark Gable was married to Carole Lombard, one of the early screwball icons.

 

 

I can't say that Clark Gable is much like Oliver EXCEPT when it come to denial of feelings and the movie to see that isn't IMO  Gone with the Wind but an absolute must see if you haven't yet, (and if you have then you know it's worth seeing again)  It Happened One Night  which just so happens to be considered the all time original screwball comedy.  Made in 1934 (more than 80 fricken' years old)  Won five Oscars and still holds up today.     

 

In an early season 2 world, Oliver would have attempted to retreat but Felicity wouldn't have let him. Her and Diggle would have made sure he didn't blame himself for the bomb going off in the restaurant and almost killing Felicity. They would have talked to him and made sure he was ok.

 

 

(I had more than a page written but I'll condense since other voices spoke a lot of my thoughts already.) 

 

I think the show crafted a scenario that actually made it impossible for Felicity or Diggle to talk Oliver and fix the problem.  The issue wasn’t that Felicity was in danger.  The problem was that Oliver convinced himself that the reason the bomb went off was because he opened himself up to the possibility of more in his life and the actual state of being happy and wrapped up in another person is what he blames as the distraction that takes away the edge he needs.  This is something only Oliver can change his mind on.  Diggle might have had a shot since he was also juggling the life and the family but the moment Sara was born, he decided Oliver was right to make him back off the same kind of life Oliver was living, in a sense, backing up Oliver’s feeling. (even though his actions clearly say something different now)

 

Oliver isn’t specifically worried about being able to keep Felicity safe, he’s convinced himself he can’t have her and be effective at what he does.  How do you argue with that?  I think there could have been a chance for Oliver to rethink his position in the following weeks if he’d had the chance to get out of his head and let others have their say (Felicity specifically).  Plus Oliver would have still had all those feelings and longings that would be just as a big distraction as dreaming of a future and at some point he probably would have figured that out and maybe even worked to find a way to deal with his issues. 

 

Instead though Sara died the very next day and he shut down his emotions, convinced more than ever he wasn’t even allowed to feel and worse yet, that dreaming of something more was pointless since he was just going to die alone one day too.  Which freaked Felicity out and sent her running for something to hold onto that wouldn't crumble if/when her world with Team Arrow did.

 

That last sentence goes to why it didn't bother me that in season one she expressed how she found something more than just being an IT girl with the Team and then season three she expressed the need to have something more outside of the team (even though her something more seems like merely a better version of what she was doing before)  In 3.02 Felicity was all in on Team Arrow to the point that her job was just there for her to get by with.  It was crappy and menial and meaningless in her life apart from the healthcare it offered.  She was completely focused on Arrow stuff and then Oliver tells her, hey, everything you've invested yourself in is probably anytime now going to implode when I'm dead on a slab just like Sara. 

 

Felicity going out and getting more in her life was about having something left in her life if/when her Arrow world vanished.  She needed something that would go on a part from the dark basement which until Oliver declared he was going to die in, she never found being in the basement oppressive or depressing.  Team Arrow was what made her feel special and I saw nothing to say that she changed her mind, but if TA was only going to be temporary then she needed to plan for a future outside of it as well.  Why not take the job where they are desperate to have your help?  She was willing to go back as an EA so it wasn't because she wasn't feeling fulfilled re her tech skills in the Foundry, she just needed something the would survive if she lost it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I think I've just talked myself out of shipping Olicity. Maybe Oliver should take Ra's up on his offer because he's certainly screwing up  his relationships with Thea and Felicity.

 

Don't give up!  Oliver is being a tool but he's not doing it on purpose and in the process of his freakout and thinking that he can't be in a relationship with Felicity he pushed aside their friendship too and along with it, a lot of common sense. Since the friendship is making it's way back, hopefully his listening skills will come back too. 

 

 He's been in fight or flight mode since twenty minutes into 3.01 and I truly believe that if he actually understood that unilaterally making decisions for people doesn't work, he would stop doing it (or try to or at least listen when people pointed out what he was doing)  He's so used to having to make the hard decisions he doesn't understand that while that works in the middle of a fight with the bad guys, it doesn't work in relationships.  He doesn't have all the information (cause he's not them) and once he realizes his mistake, I have a lot of faith in him trying not to repeat it. 

They don't do episode-specific ads for Arrow here, just the general ones.

:(  Here in the states unless it's a promo for the current episode (or upcoming arc) they just keep recycling ads they made for the 1st season.  Felicity isn't even in them.  :(

 

Yes, but I'm holding out hope it'll be Olicity until the last moments of the show. Kill her off three episodes before the end and leave the show implying that GA/BC eventually get together without actually making us watch it, you know?

I really feel that baring unforeseen issues with actors choosing to go, if they go long term Olicity GA/BC will not be considered a viable endgame.  That said, I'm really hoping now that KC has had her dream of playing BC fulfilled that she sets her sights on other loftier goals, say like a movie career or just other projects that allow her to pursue new goals.   

 

I hope that there is only a friendship between nyssa & laurel because it would take too much from sara's memory. But I could see them attempting to have laurel kiss her, but then nyssa backing off and saying that she still misses & loves sara. That way they can have ll attempting bi so they can have it as option in future. But honestly I think they will just bypass a romantic relationship between nyssa & ll.

If the show goes there I'd expect it the other way round, with Nyssa making the pass cause she's so incredibly lonely and messed up and Laurel sadly explaining she's not Sara and doesn't have those kinds of feelings  but they can still be friends.   I really hope not, but I can absolutely see them having Nyssa make a pass at her.  Double the odds if they ever give them wine in a scene, - lol, I forgot that Laurel doesn't drink.   Well, still applies if Nyssa ever does since she'd be the one under the influence.   

Edited March 23, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

Speaking of hurt people by making decisions for them..... Thea is really messed up now and it's not just because of Malcolm Merlyn.  Oliver didn't tell her about Team Arrow (questionable but maybe okay), he didn't tell her how bad Malcolm really was when he brought her back from Corto Maltese, and  he ddn't tell her that she killed Sara and that he was going to fight Ra's al Ghul.  And then he not only ignored her anger about Malcolm by going to save him, he installed Malcolm on her living room couch.  Malcolm Merlyn has treated Thea very badly, because he is insane, but Oliver hasn't been doing all that much better for her.

 

Been thinking a lot about just this topic and when I do I get more than a little furious at Oliver in a very I'm so frustrated with him way. 

 

I was originally responding to why Felicity would consider being in a relationship with Ray when she was in love with Oliver (cause I do believe she knows she's in love with him even though she won't say the words and she has put those feelings in a drawer marked Do Not Open) and I was running down a list of things Oliver had done since returning from the dead that would have undermined her faith in the love he keeps declaring.

 

Oliver declared he can't be the Arrow and be with Felicity cause she's a distraction and his duties as the Arrow have to come first,  but since his return, Oliver hasn't been choosing to be the Arrow first and foremost.  (I swear this post is about Oliver and Thea!)  Twice since not being dead and going on camera and promising the city he'd never leave, he's walked away from Starling City.  IMO this would at the very least make Felicity question his whole 'I have to give you up so I can be what the city needs me to be' position.  Plus wouldn't she wonder why she doesn't warrant the same special exemption when he's clearly ok in putting other important matters ahead of being the Arrow and protecting the city sometimes?   

 

It was in trying to answer the counter argument (but it's for Thea!) that I realized what a messed up thing Oliver had done because on multiple levels what he did was in no way to Thea's benefit. 

 

Consider:

 

A week after going on his training excursion with Thea, Malcolm ( the mass murderer, killer of Sara, and man who made Oliver’s baby sister into an unwitting murderer) was scooped up by the only group that knew he was alive and could hand out justice thus solving their issues with Ra’s and the LoA.  Thea was not only ok with her decision, but feeling empowered by it. 

 

Oliver again chooses to turn his back on his vow to Starling and even his ongoing excuse – I have to save Thea -  is suddenly in question because his actions are the opposite of what his sister wants and Oliver leaving her and risking his life is not protecting Thea.  Actually, let's not sugar coat it - he was not risking his life, he was facing near certain suicide if Ra’s hadn’t had other ideas.

 

 

Oliver says he’s trying to protect Thea  from the emotional consequences over turning over her father to be killed but consider this, would Thea have felt the emotional consequences if he hadn’t insisted she would feel terrible one day?  Had Oliver backed Thea's choice up, I think she would have rejected the man that tried to play father and saw him for what he really was to her – a genetic source that in no way qualified as her dad. 

 

 

Oliver’s reaction – the one where he would rather go to a certain death than let Malcolm go- had to have gone a long way to convincing Thea that what she had done must have been morally reprehensible – even if she didn’t feel that way – and not feeling that way would only exacerbate her feelings of self-loathing since her brother the vigilante was judging her on her choice.   

 

 

All through 3.16 we see Thea wondering what kind of monster must she be to want Malcolm dead.  If she’d had the support of those around her reinforcing the reality that Malcolm was a user and a manipulator and NOT HER emotional father, then would Thea be floundering so badly?  At least with Malcolm being held accountable for his crimes she could feel like some kind of justice was served for Sara but Oliver took that away from her not because he honestly felt he had to protect her but because he was tangled up in his own personal issues not being able to handle having lost to Ra’s and so he wanted Malcolm around to train him so he could beat Ra's.

 

The show plays up Thea's call to the LoA like that made her responsible for Malcolm's likely death.  She's asking herself how sick is that?  But is reporting Malcolm's whereabouts to the League so terribly different than turning in say the Boston Bomber over to the authorities?  There is a good chance that he could face the death penalty.  Should we accuse the guy who spotted him in his boat of being morally responsible for the bomber's death if he gets the death penalty?   Should family members not follow the law and aid police in an investigation of a murderer in the family?  Not an alleged murderer in Malcolm's case, but an admitted murderer who still causes death.  Should we discourage women who were horridly misused by mass murdering men from getting justice merely because that man is a biological parent?  

 

No, the LoA aren't the same as the regular police but Malcolm agreed to abide by their rules and even when he was released from their service, they expected him to live by the tenants they stood for and he knew that and yet he still used what they'd taught him to bring about his undertaking (side note: I never noticed how similar undertaking and undertaker are until just now).  Malcolm was in a sense a citizen of the LoA.  Why shouldn't he be bound by their laws?  And why should Thea have been made to feel she was somehow more of a monster than Malcolm?   

 

Oliver's actions took away Thea's understanding of good and bad.  Everything in her screams Malcolm should be brought to justice and the League was the only place Malcolm would face justice and yet her beloved brother insists on saving her from life ruining decision.   In "saving Thea" he pushed her to a place where she was suicidal - and that's on Oliver, not Malcolm. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by BkWurm1

[dtissagirl]

Great post about Oliver and Thea and the mess they've made up of dealing with Malcolm, @BkWurm1!

 

What I really want to know is that now that Oliver doesn't need Malcolm to train him to defeat Ra's anymore, why is he parked on Thea's couch instead of in prison awaiting trial for The Undertaking?

 

[The answer is because plot.]

[apinknightmare]

Probably because no prison can hold him, so why bother trying?!

I also figured it was because Oliver might've thought in the back of his mind that Ra's wasn't just going to let him decline the offer, so he kept Malcolm around just in case he wound up needing him. I want to give him credit for a contingency plan, haha.

Edited March 23, 2015 by apinknightmare

[KirkB]

Well, the main reason for Oliver keeping Malcolm around at this point IS plot, but there is also the fact that Oliver (correctly) doesn't trust Ra's and if it comes down to a fight Malcolm is a good tool to have at his disposal. Not a trustworthy one, by any means, but it's better to keep a poisonous snake in front of you than on the loose.

 

As for Laurel and Nyssa, I can see a heated training session leading to one of them impulsively trying to kiss the other. Most likely Laurel, worked up and curious, but Nyssa shuts her down rather quickly for all the reasons stated here. And not only that, but immediately afterward one of the EPs (and I think we all know which one) will go on Twitter and make a joke about Laurel trying everything her sister did.

Edited March 23, 2015 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

 

A week after going on his training excursion with Thea, Malcolm ( the mass murderer, killer of Sara, and man who made Oliver’s baby sister into an unwitting murderer) was scooped up by the only group that knew he was alive and could hand out justice thus solving their issues with Ra’s and the LoA.  Thea was not only ok with her decision, but feeling empowered by it. 

 

Oliver again chooses to turn his back on his vow to Starling and even his ongoing excuse – I have to save Thea -  is suddenly in question because his actions are the opposite of what his sister wants and Oliver leaving her and risking his life is not protecting Thea.  Actually, let's not sugar coat it - he was not risking his life, he was facing near certain suicide if Ra’s hadn’t had other ideas.

 

 

Oliver says he’s trying to protect Thea  from the emotional consequences over turning over her father to be killed but consider this, would Thea have felt the emotional consequences if he hadn’t insisted she would feel terrible one day?  Had Oliver backed Thea's choice up, I think she would have rejected the man that tried to play father and saw him for what he really was to her – a genetic source that in no way qualified as her dad. 

 

Oliver’s reaction – the one where he would rather go to a certain death than let Malcolm go- had to have gone a long way to convincing Thea that what she had done must have been morally reprehensible – even if she didn’t feel that way – and not feeling that way would only exacerbate her feelings of self-loathing since her brother the vigilante was judging her on her choice.   

----

All through 3.16 we see Thea wondering what kind of monster must she be to want Malcolm dead.  If she’d had the support of those around her reinforcing the reality that Malcolm was a user and a manipulator and NOT HER emotional father, then would Thea be floundering so badly?  At least with Malcolm being held accountable for his crimes she could feel like some kind of justice was served for Sara but Oliver took that away from her not because he honestly felt he had to protect her but because he was tangled up in his own personal issues not being able to handle having lost to Ra’s and so he wanted Malcolm around to train him so he could beat Ra's.

 

The show plays up Thea's call to the LoA like that made her responsible for Malcolm's likely death.  She's asking herself how sick is that?  [snip]  Should we discourage women who were horridly misused by mass murdering men from getting justice merely because that man is a biological parent? 

---

.  Why shouldn't he be bound by their laws?  And why should Thea have been made to feel she was somehow more of a monster than Malcolm?   

---

Oliver's actions took away Thea's understanding of good and bad.  Everything in her screams Malcolm should be brought to justice and the League was the only place Malcolm would face justice and yet her beloved brother insists on saving her from life ruining decision.   In "saving Thea" he pushed her to a place where she was suicidal - and that's on Oliver, not Malcolm. 

A brilliant post, BkWurm1.  It should be read every International Woman's Day,.

 

Oliver justifies his actions by saying he's doing it for Thea, but what if the only way Thea can heal is to see Malcolm getting the justice he deserves, so that she can see that it's on him and not on her?

 

Oliver really spends too much time defending the male villains on the show at the cost of the good female characters.

 

Probably because no prison can hold him, so why bother trying?!

Exactly why the LoA should handle it. 

 

But we know he's on the couch so that Thea ends up in Roy's bed.

Edited March 23, 2015 by statsgirl

[CabotCove]

There's nothing textual to support ot but there's a hell of a lot of subtext and art work that supports Babs/Dinah OTP.

There's also Gail Simone's view that Dinah was 75% Hetero...ironically that whole topic was due to a BoP issue dealing with Talia Al Ghul and her sexual/seductive aspects leading men to ruin. So in theory a romantic/sexual relationship between Nyssa/Laurel wouldn't violate canon. In fact the bisexual aspect of Sara's character are one reason I put in the plus column of Sara being The Black Canary (in my mind).

 

But like you say babs/Dinah is subtext, and not that I care for canon "violation" (This is an adaptation and not even comics stay the same) but if Arrow were to go there with Laurel it would  be "canon violation". Babs/Dinah have never been canonized, its all been writer and fan interpretation. Gail Simone is one writer,an employee, it will only be a thing if those in charge of DC comics  wants it and say so. Right now they seem to be busy pushing Babs/Dick Grayson, who are getting their own comic book this summer. And then there is the new Titans show coming soon, which both characters will be starring in. And Dinah recently had a husband in her recently cancelled comic. DC has never treated Dinah/babs as anything but a  best friendship between two women, at least so far. 

 

Arrow likely took inspiration to make Sara bisexual from Gail and long time fan headcanons about the two characters but I doubt they will do the same thing with Laurel, who is likely regarded as the "official" Dinah/Black Canary. So to me really this whole Lauryssa? thing seems far fetched, and its not even sorely because canon, but that Laurel has not been shown to be bisexual in the show, and transferring her love from Sara to her sister just doesn't seem like a thing Nyssa would do. I think some people may say they ship Lauryssa but they don't necessarily mean they want a romance, one can ship a friendship, workmateship, siblingship these days etc. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by Conell

[lion10]

I kinda want Nyssa to date Laurel and then she and Oliver have a moment where Oliver's like "Welcome to the club."  

 

I really want Nyssa and Oliver to become secondary bros to the BROTP of Diggle and Oliver.  Seriously though I do get the feeling that Nyssa's more than a little physically attracted to Laurel, especially with her "don't forget to turn your hips" comment but it would be so awkward (at this point) for Nyssa to hook up with Laurel in the same season that her sister died.  As has been mentioned before, Laurel's already having identity issues and Nyssa's not over Sara yet.

 

Also, I realize this isn't the place for this question but I am genuinely curious.  Are lesbians attracted to the same exact things that straight guys are attracted to (boobs, hips, figure, face) or is it different?  And if so, how?  Do men tend to be more looks focused than lesbians or less?  

[BkWurm1]

No expert here, lol, but I get the impression that just the way that tastes differ among men, so do they among women.  So some are all about the hot model type and others are looking for something very different than the standardized "ideal".  The majority of women still exist somewhere in the middle.   

[SmallScreenDiva]

Warner Bros Latin airs Arrow here, they have a couple of ads currently on rotation that pretty much rely on Oliver/Felicity to promote the show. These aren't episode specific, they're general ads intended for new viewers. They basically say Arrow = Oliver/Felicity. This is the kind of promotion I'm thinking of.

 

There was a Calle 13 TV spot for Spain last year for Season 3 and I found it fascinating because it was all action, action, OLICITY! LOL! I mean, they actually used the word.

[SmallScreenDiva]

They were at work during working hours, I dont think it would have been appropriate work behavior, even if they are the bosses. At least that's what I have heard and know, unless some other work places are less strict or don't mind about that. Anyway the little affection  they were showing was even enough to clue Oliver in that something was going on between them.

 

I dont think thats completely true, why cant we believe that these characters like each other for them even when they say they do?. Ray said he started doing this for Anna but that has evolved to be about living people he cares about namely Felicity, why would Ray lie about that. Ok lets forget about Ray for a sec, I know he doesnt really have a good reputation on here but what about Felicity. Do you honestly see her as the kind of woman who would be as cruel as to go out with a man she had no feelings for or want just because "the one she really wants to be" with rejected her?. Yes I do think that the Ray/Felicity has an Oliver/Anna component, Anna because she is a woman that Ray loved and was forcefully taken away from him  by death.

 

Oliver, he is the man that Felicity has had feelings for years and she would be with him if she could but I dont think that means Ray or Felicity cant move on or love more than one person for the rest of their lives. It doesn't mean their relationship cant have components that have nothing to do with their former lovers. The reality is that their relationship is part of a triangle and they are not the main couple, its TV 101, there is going to be an Oliver component because he is the main character and the third part of a triangle, they are not going to have the same development and  focus a main couple would. Just like a supporting character can have their own independent life, a supporting relationship can too even though there is some interconnection/benefit to the main character/couple. Not everything Felicity does for her love life or in general is informed by Oliver, I think that's selling the character short IMO.

 

I wasn't really advocating for a full makeout session in the workplace. Just a quick peck on the lips, a squeeze of Felicity's waist. But I get why it would be considered inappropriate (I've worked for companies where a lot of people are actually paired up so a little PDA doesn't faze me) and why the show wouldn't go there since seeing Felicity and Ray close together is enough to give a lot of people palpitations -- and not the good kind ;)

 

I do agree that Felicity's and Ray's reasons for being together aren't all because of Anna and Oliver. Actually, I'm not sure that Ray's reasons have anything to do with Anna at all. Part of Felicity's, sure, because she actually mentions Oliver during her interactions with Ray. And she did kiss him when he made her feel valued during a time when Oliver didn't seem to count on her opinion. But the show IMO has shown there's definitely an attraction between Ray and Felicity and that they genuinely like each other.

[statsgirl]

I think that Ray's relationship with Felicity is more a surprised "Hey, I'm not dead too" than serious feelings for Felicity.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if he suddenly tells her he's serious about her because Ray is weird that way.

 

From the The Offer episode thread

 

Do we think that felicity knows any of his time as an assassin? Do u think she thought he was just referring to his early times as the hood? It does make me wonder how fs will respond when she finds out the depth of his assassin past. Hes mentioned missions, but im thinking the only person that might have a deeper knowledge of his assassin past is diggle. But I think that will be something more to explore when we get into his bratva past. But the line was just dropped in there with no real response or reaction from either of them.

I think it speaks to how accepting Felicity is of Oliver, just like his reveal during the date that he hadn't spent all 5 years on Lian Yu only made her say that his time away was a whole lot of suck."

 

She's completely accepting of who Oliver is, maybe because she's seen how hard he struggles to get his humanity back.

Edited March 24, 2015 by statsgirl

[DrSpaceman10]

I'm beginning to feel an Oliver-Sara type level of annoyance. It's stupid! Why did they even go there with Ray and Felicity if it wasn't going to count!

These are the reasons I think they went there with Ray/Felicity:

1. They wanted to feel like they were giving Felicity a "serious choice"

2. They wanted to delay Olicity (perhaps because of their belief in the Moonlighting curse)

3. They like angst a little too much

4. They wanted Oliver/Felicity's romantic baggage to be more equal

None of these are really good reasons to put a couple together, but what's done is done.

[BkWurm1]

I think that Ray's relationship with Felicity is more a surprised "Hey, I'm not dead too" than serious feelings for Felicity.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if he suddenly tells her he's serious about her because Ray is weird that way.

 

 

I think Ray's feelings for Felicity are deeper than a so glad I'm alive and can still feel things relationship but I also agree that what he's feeling likely isn't as deep or as serious as he may think.  I can't help think he's probably dong some transference of his feelings for his finance -who he failed to save - to Felicity - who he has been able to protect. 

 

Now before that incident with Brick's men ever happened he already liked and admired Felicity but that kiss honestly seemed to surprise him and after he did chase her down and explain his reaction, he seemed to back off the personal side of things. There was an attraction but he seemed conflicted about even feeling that attraction.

 

 In the next episode (how long later was the timeline?) Felicity actually yells at him about what he's doing and that it won't bring Anna back to which he got positively icy about.  She then apologized for speaking for someone she never knew and explained a little about where her head was and she called him a friend.  Ray didn't have a lot of dialog but he looked empathetic without looking like he had any plans on hitting on her.  In fact I thought he looked a little taken back that she considered him a good friend. 

 

Their next episode he was still bringing Felicity along to his meetings for whatever reason he had but he wasn't doing anything flirty or even anything that implied they were friends...until after the gunmen showed up.  Suddenly, his very reason for what he's doing goes from honoring Anna to protecting Felicity.  We don't see a lot of Ray in the next couple episodes but we find out he's pretty much channeled all his effort into completing his suit which kind of seems like a direct reaction to what happened with Brick's attack.  He even told Felicity that due to being only a so so fighter that is why he needs his suit. 

 

And then Felicity comes, takes care of him - probably like his fiancé did at one point cause you know he's the kind of guy to get lost in his work and one thing led to another ---and it gave him the push to complete his suit. 

 

So while I do think he genuinely likes and appreciates Felicity for who she is on her own, I think he might mistake the intensity of his feelings and on top of that, yeah, I get the feeling that he's the type to move fast when he thinks he's found what he wants. 

[KenyaJ]

I think Ray's feelings for Felicity are deeper than a so glad I'm alive and can still feel things relationship but I also agree that what he's feeling likely isn't as deep or as serious as he may think.  I can't help think he's probably dong some transference of his feelings for his finance -who he failed to save - to Felicity - who he has been able to protect.

 

Much like Felicity, trying to save him from dying after she seemingly couldn't save Oliver. Their relationship is just a big mess of transference.

Edited March 24, 2015 by KenyaJ

[statsgirl]

And then Felicity comes, takes care of him - probably like his fiancé did at one point cause you know he's the kind of guy to get lost in his work and one thing led to another ---and it gave him the push to complete his suit.

Apparently it was the sex, something which I will have a hard time forgiving the writers for because it's such an awful locker room trope.

 

What I like about this is that if they have to get physical, at least it's being written as neither a serious romance nor as an itch being scratched (except for the part about the suit and the sex).  Not every relationship has to be True Love and Ray and Felicity are both around the same mark of being both being invested and yet not really invested.  So much better than "One who kisses and one who accepts the kiss."

 

I think there are only two things that I don't like about it:  1. that Felicity first slept with Ray after being rejected by Oliver and Diggle; and that in The Offer, she appeared to be willing to drop Ray and be with Oliver if only he'd say the word.  Oliver needs to have to work harder for her than that lest he be the one who accepts the kiss.

[kismet]

Not sure if this is speculation thread or relationship thread. Sorry. Im just gonna put it out there Im having a hard time figuring out who I want to initiate the break up of Ray & Felicity. I think it will likely be mutual similar to McKenna or any other break-up we've seen on this show where the other person just concedes. But I really can't figure out which one I want. I can make good arguments for both. Some strengthen the character or narrative, some weaken it. Some are purely plot dependent. But Im really having a hard time determining which one works best in the long run. Usually I have an opinion by now. I guess its might be related to the fact that I never understood the relationship in the first place being vital to either F or R's character development and completely see it as a poorly chosen plot device the way it was written in the first place. My head says Ray, but my heart says Felicity. Either way I just hope sooner rather than later. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to wait and see what the writers come up with.

 

And if they stay together, than I apologize for my wishful thinking.

Edited March 24, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

I think it depends on why they'll break up. If they figure out they're better off as friends for whatever reason, then sure, I can see it being a mutual decision.

 

But if it's in anyway about Oliver -- either Ray realizing there's something going on between F/O, or Felicity having an epiphany that she's settling with Ray because he's Oliver-lite, then it'll be more one-sided.

 

And knowing this show, it's probably gonna be about Oliver.

[wonderwall]

I have a theory that Mama Smoak will be a major player in all of this. I think that in episode 18 Mama Smoak will visit Felicity at the hospital but because of everything else that's going on and Oliver is in danger she'll leave the hospital to help them only to come back to the hospital at the very end when all the drama is over. I think Mama Smoak will be all "If you really cared for him wouldn't you have stayed?" or something like that which will get Felicity thinking why she's actually with Ray. 

 

In the end I think it's either going to be mutual or Felicity will break it off with Ray. 

[BkWurm1]

Apparently it was the sex, something which I will have a hard time forgiving the writers for because it's such an awful locker room trope.

 

I'll never accept that.  :)  And really, there's plenty of reason to say the sex was just an extra bonus.  She'd already forced him to stop so he could shower, eat and rest.  The food and the rest, that's what allowed his overworked mind make the final connections he needed to finish.  You can't tell me different.  La, la, la, I can't hear you.  

[statsgirl]

Yes.  It was the food and the rest. And the shower. It's easier to think when you're clean, which is why it took Oliver five years to get back home.

 

As for who breaks up with who, if they're going to parallel Oliver/Sara, Ray is going to realize that he's not what Felicity needs and tells her to find someone with the right light.  But I'd really rather it was a mutual "it was just one of those things" decision.

[Guest]

If it's even happening this season (not sure that it is), I want Felicity to be the one to break up with Ray. It needs to be her decision - I want to see her proactive about it and her feelings and make a choice, even if it's a hard one. Maybe Ray has already come to the realization that things aren't working or that he's not over Anna and Felicity's in love with someone else and he can agree with her decision but I hope Felicity instigates it all. 

[wonderwall]

I truly do think it will be Felicity to be the one instigating the break up. Otherwise what is the point of this sub plot?

[TrueMyth]

My husband just started watching Arrow a few months ago.  We've been working through the show since February and he finally caught up tonight.  I've tried to stay mum about my opinions with some things to let him experience thing without bias, and because I've been curious how season three would play to him in marathon (the first half of the season, he was adorably trying to figure out who the Big Bad was... it nearly broke my heart).

 

I bring this up because he actually seems taken with the Ray/Felicity relationship.  The scene from 3x15, with the towel and the painting and the lunge, had him "awww'ing" and reaching for my hand.  I finally had to side-eye him and dump some ice-cold, "yeah, I'm so not into Ray and what's going down right now" on the situation.  He laughs at the cutesy scenes with Ray and Felicity.  Sigh.

 

It's so hard for me to understand that some people really do feel the emotional beats between them.  To me, it just seems so clearly manufactured and temporary, and Ray seems so cardboard and boring.  I wonder if I would like it more in marathon format (it was more tolerable the second time around), or if it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks.   My husband loves Felicity, and likes Oliver/Felicity, but is nowhere near as invested as I am in that ship.

[wonderwall]

My husband just started watching Arrow a few months ago.  We've been working through the show since February and he finally caught up tonight.  I've tried to stay mum about my opinions with some things to let him experience thing without bias, and because I've been curious how season three would play to him in marathon (the first half of the season, he was adorably trying to figure out who the Big Bad was... it nearly broke my heart).

 

I bring this up because he actually seems taken with the Ray/Felicity relationship.  The scene from 3x15, with the towel and the painting and the lunge, had him "awww'ing" and reaching for my hand.  I finally had to side-eye him and dump some ice-cold, "yeah, I'm so not into Ray and what's going down right now" on the situation.  He laughs at the cutesy scenes with Ray and Felicity.  Sigh.

 

It's so hard for me to understand that some people really do feel the emotional beats between them.  To me, it just seems so clearly manufactured and temporary, and Ray seems so cardboard and boring.  I wonder if I would like it more in marathon format (it was more tolerable the second time around), or if it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks.   My husband loves Felicity, and likes Oliver/Felicity, but is nowhere near as invested as I am in that ship.

 

That's quite interesting! I have a different experience with my family members (who are angry at me for ever introducing this show to them because they're not enjoying this season at all. They all find Ray boring and fast forward his scenes as well as Laurel's and have no time for F/R. They tell me that they're spending too much time on the uninteresting characters and not enough time on Diggle, Felicity, and Oliver as a team. Out of 9 of them, 5 of them hardcore LOVE O/F (my father is so taken by them it's so adorable to witness and my husband really adores them too and was majorly disappointed with the R/F scenes), and the rest like them (more than any other couple on the show, but they're not invested in any other relationship on the show). 

 

At least your husband likes them? :) Once Ray is out the picture I'm sure you won't have to deal with his awwing :p I really wonder why he likes them though? You should definitely ask him! I think that people who like them like the superficial stuff and the cutesy moments? Nothing too deep.

[BkWurm1]

I had been away from this thread for about a month and then read all the posts and there were a few things that I don't recall who all were discussing it but I still wanted to have a say about.

Let me start with the idea of Felicity sleeping with Ray because of Oliver. I think there is some truth to this but let me explain that I think it's true only as far as how Felicity was put in the mind frame where she felt compelled that moment to go back and try to save Ray rather than go home or wait at the lair. I sincerely don’t think she went to Ray intending to sleep with him or draw a line in the sand between her and Oliver - it was just a byproduct of the circumstances.

It was a shame that the writers felt they needed to draw such a clear line from Oliver cutting Felicity out of any further discussion about him going off to get probably killed to her then showing up at Ray’s, determined to try harder to save him, (she even says she’s there because a friend was a hopeless cause.) So from that standpoint, yeah, I can see a viewpoint that blames Oliver, and really, it’s not such a radical idea since Oliver always has been the big picture reason why Felicity is in a place where she’d consider sleeping with Ray.

If Oliver hadn’t had his freak out and she and he were in a relationship, none of this would be happening and I think that’s why every once and a while I do find myself overly frustrated with Oliver and why there are moments when even him getting a little of what he wants – Felicity’s friendship back - can feel like nails on a chalk board. I usually get past it quickly myself, but I can understand why others might not put their anger aside so easily.

Oliver isn’t happy with the way things are between he and Felicity (her being with Ray) but it’s what he thinks he should want. Aka Felicity happy (ish) but not with him because he can’t be with her but at the same time he craves being around her so getting back into the groove of their old friendship lets him go back to a point that he can be ok with life. Felicity’s friendship makes his life immeasurably better IMO and when he hasn’t had it, he has suffered – which I sympathize with even if I can’t help remember he brought it on himself.

Yet, this is a guy not used to being happy so just not being absolutely bereft and miserable is a huge step up and one of the things that might have had the power to make me steamed is the notion that if nothing changed, Oliver now could coast in this limbo where he doesn’t have to leave his comfort zone (and try being with Felicity), but at the same time he still can bask in her smiles and looks and her pleasure in him. Her being with Ray kills him but he’s used to hurting. He expects to hurt. He probably thinks he deserves to hurt so that’s not enough to make him reexamine his stubborn stance.

Thankfully I see things coming even in this weeks episode that should shake Oliver up and make him reexamine if he can really get the girl or not and that keeps me from actually being mad at him or feeling the need to make him work for Felicity's affection more.

And by work for, I mean step up, get his head on straight and start dating her. I don't really resent him getting to enjoy Felicity's friendship without having yet decided to "work for it" because it's a two way street, Felicity also wants his friendship back and in her mind them not dating was not supposed to take away their existing friendship...but again, I can see why some might see it as Oliver getting what he wants (in the loosest sense of the word) while Felicity (who never had a say in the matter) has had to move on with IMO a paler version of the original.

Edited March 25, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

I truly do think it will be Felicity to be the one instigating the break up. Otherwise what is the point of this sub plot?

I think everything that BkWurm1 wrote above is the real point of this sub plot, besides getting Ray his superhero status.  Oliver needed to learn that the assumptions and decisions he made at the start of the season and held on to with all his ability, weren't the right ones.  Oliver is the kind of learned who can't just be told that what's he's doing is a mistake, he needs to actually make the mistake before he gets it into his thick head.

 

Felicity knew all along what she wanted -- she wanted Oliver, but she wanted an Oliver who would be a partner and someone who let her be on the team.  Oliver took that away from her and so she went to Ray and got it from him, but there was never any question as to who she wanted if she could get it in the form she needed. 

 

My husband just started watching Arrow a few months ago.  We've been working through the show since February and he finally caught up tonight.  I've tried to stay mum about my opinions with some things to let him experience thing without bias, and because I've been curious how season three would play to him in marathon (the first half of the season, he was adorably trying to figure out who the Big Bad was... it nearly broke my heart).

I think if you didn't watch season 1 and 2 of Arrow, you could easily get invested in  Raylicity since Oliver is being all  cold and brooding to Felicity and Ray is giving her everything she could want in a boss and boyfriend.  (This is why I didn't let my friend start on s2 of House, I made her watch s1 so she would know the right ship.)

 

Superficially, Raylicity works just fine as a TV romance  But what hooked me into Arrow, and hasn't happened when I watch The Flash, is the feels.  Oliver and Felicity have the feels, Ray and Felicity have the romcom points.

[CabotCove]

So while I do think he genuinely likes and appreciates Felicity for who she is on her own, I think he might mistake the intensity of his feelings and on top of that, yeah, I get the feeling that he's the type to move fast when he thinks he's found what he wants.

 

Agree, it could be the case. This makes sense to me than a complete dismissal of his feelings for Felicity when we really haven't been shown much insight into whats going on in his head. 

 

1. They wanted to feel like they were giving Felicity a "serious choice"

 

Why is giving her a serious choice (even though it seems you don't believe it worked) not a good reason to have the relationship though?

 

I wasn't really advocating for a full makeout session in the workplace. Just a quick peck on the lips, a squeeze of Felicity's waist. But I get why it would be considered inappropriate (I've worked for companies where a lot of people are actually paired up so a little PDA doesn't faze me) and why the show wouldn't go there since seeing Felicity and Ray close together is enough to give a lot of people palpitations -- and not the good kind ;)

 

OK I get you now.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Conell

[TrueMyth]

I think if you didn't watch season 1 and 2 of Arrow, you could easily get invested in  Raylicity since Oliver is being all  cold and brooding to Felicity and Ray is giving her everything she could want in a boss and boyfriend.  (This is why I didn't let my friend start on s2 of House, I made her watch s1 so she would know the right ship.)

 

Superficially, Raylicity works just fine as a TV romance  But what hooked me into Arrow, and hasn't happened when I watch The Flash, is the feels.  Oliver and Felicity have the feels, Ray and Felicity have the romcom points.

To be clear, my husband watched all of season one and two first.  He's seen the heydays of Oliver.  Additionally, he's not a Laurel fan or a Oliver/Laurel shipper.  He literally turned to me during season one and again during the family dinner from hell in season two and said "Laurel is a horrible person."  He occasionally says "Shut up, Laurel." And he was sputtering in disbelief when she threw herself at Malcolm this season.

Edited March 25, 2015 by TrueMyth

[statsgirl]

And he still liked Raylicity?  TrueMyth, I feel your pain

 

How does he feel about Oliver and Ray deciding who Felicity should be with?

[apinknightmare]

I guess I didn't get that Oliver and Ray were deciding who Felicity should be with at all in that scene? Oliver did not throw his hat into the ring or indicate that he even wanted to. Felicity was already dating Ray, had previously said she was happy with and wanted to be with Ray, and Oliver correctly indicated that she chose to be with him (which is true, since technically Oliver didn't have to be a choice in order for Felicity to choose Ray - she could've chosen to be alone and she didn't). Unless I'm forgetting something? 

 

Oliver talking his BS about what Felicity deserves though made me angry, but he ultimately didn't give her any grief about being with Ray and went to Ray and called him out for not trusting his girlfriend, so...my standards are so low for this show that's about what I think I can expect these days, haha.

[blixie]

 

but he ultimately didn't give her any grief about being with Ray

I think he DID give her grief about who she chose to be with, aka, someone problematic from his POV, aka a vigilante, why didn't she get that she wasn't supposed to make that kind of choice? He needs to take a fucking seat and listen up: he doesn't get to control whether or not Felicity is "happy", or how she pursues that happiness, especially when he is huge piece of the reason she is UNHAPPY.I realize she lured him into the whole terrible conversation, with a shitty unsubstantiated accusation (jealous, wanting Ray dead/gone), but he still went there. I would rather him own that he IS jealous/envious of Ray entirely because he's making the choices Oliver doesn't feel capable of making. Instead of admitting it TO Felicity, he in he in essence admitted it to Ray instead which is why it felt to me, like he and Ray were "deciding" for Felicity who she should be with. 

[looptab]

This was all kinds of awesome:

 

This wasn't:

[kismet]

Been meaning to post this from time to time, but I know it is not a novel idea. But Christina Perri's Arms came on my Pandora (Seriously this is Oliver's jam of the moment) & a motivational  Mike Ditka quote popped up my tumblr feed, so I am taking it as a sign. The Mike Ditka quote was "Before you can win, you have to believe you are worthy". This qupte I think highlights the crux of what is wrong with OQ and his relationships, esp to Felicity. I truly do not believe he thinks he is worthy of anyone's love. Has anyone ever stopped and tried to actually convince OQ that he is worthy of Love??? The last person, I can remember trying was Moira. Felcity just keeps on yelling at him about not trying to be human enough. Diggle is trying to jedi-mind trick Oliver into admitting he is worthy of love and NONE of it is working. Its not that he is not trying to be human enough. He is trying. He has made significant strides in his humanity this year, but that doesn't mean he feels he is worthy of love. He is just adrift on this lonely island of despair & self-loathing and frankly its getting a little painful to watch. I want someone to tell OQ he is worthy of love.

 

I know that I may be in the minority of people who actually feel that how Oliver is trying to handle his feelings towards Felicity is not horrible. He is not intentionally stringing her along. He intentionally took his love away from her, which can be perceived as deciding for her, but I don't believe that is his intention. I truly do not believe his controlling in this regard. Everyone says that OQ won't have to work hard to get FS back once he puts his hat in the ring. And to an extent I believe that. But when will Felicity actually step up and throw her hat in the ring? Its one thing to accuse him of not trying to be human, but what has she done in this season that has proven or given him any indication that even if he had this great emotional metamorphis it would really make a difference in his situation? If anyone needs to tell him that he deserves to be loved its Felicity. He is human enough to recognize that he loves her, but that doesn't mean he knows how to accept love. And she really hasn't been all that clear with her intentions this season either. Telling him/ convincing him that he is worthy of love, is probably even more important than her ever admitting that she has feelings for him. But at this point, I will take any member of Team Arrow, heck I'll even take MM or Ras telling him that deserves to be loved. I truly hope its Thea, because it would be completely separate from romantic love and help bond them, which probably makes her the best person to tell him. It would also dovetail with s1 Thea when she told him he had to let somebody in. I know I need to be patient and wait until May. But its becoming harder to watch everyone emotionally beat up OQ, with him being the #1 person taking hits at himself. I think sometime we forget just how emotionally scarred & fragile Oliver really is. I think its easy to call him a controlling jerk that makes decisions for other people, but thats just a small percentage of what is going on. Its easy to say just choose happiness and humanity, but for OQ those aren't even believable options. I mean I know we wave it off as manpaining, but there are serious psychological & mental health issues floating around the foundry. OQ does not feel worthy and no amount of yelling at him is gonna change that. Someone who loves him needs to step in and have an emotional intervention soon.

[apinknightmare]

^This is a nice sentiment, and it would be nice to hear Felicity say those things to Oliver, but I don't think Oliver's issues with pursuing a relationship with Felicity have anything to do with feeling like he doesn't deserve love. I would understand if they did, because look at everything he's gone through, but there hasn't been anything in the text this season specifically with regards to their relationship that indicates that's the case. He's been pretty consistent in saying that he's scared of being happy and being himself, that he doesn't think he can have those things because he has to be the Arrow. 

 

Oliver's issue seems to be what he believes Felicity deserves, and it's not anything that he thinks he can offer, because what he wants for her isn't what she wants for herself. He wants her to have a chance at the white picket fence and the 2.5 kids or whatever, but he never asked her if that's what she wanted, and it's easier that way because it makes it easier for him to lie himself into believing he's doing the right thing for himself, for the city, and for her. 

 

Much as I don't like the Ray/Felicity relationship for so many reasons, I think it will be good in helping Oliver come to realizations about at least some of his issues. He said he was being honest with her when he wanted her happiness, up until the point where she went out and started dating a guy who was "just like" him. That's got to rattle him, because he's denying himself a relationship with Felicity because he's convinced that's what's good for her (which is shitty, I won't argue that), and there she is, going out with some other dude that presents the same problems that going out with him does. And I think that is going to get through to him more than her trying to convince him that she wants the life that being with him offers - seeing her choose that same life only with some other man. 

Edited March 27, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

It's interesting how Oliver said Ray was just like him and therefore Felicity deserves better. Doesn't think very highly of himself shame.

[dtissagirl]

I agree with @apinknightmare.

 

As much as I wish I could zap Palmer into oblivion and then Eternal Sunshine him out of my brain, he's there to serve a narrative purpose for Oliver [even more than for Felicity, sadly]: to show Oliver that his idea that happiness = "normal life" is dumb.

 

And I get why Oliver thinks that. I really do. And I also get that he truly believes it. And imo, the bigger problem with is stance is that he doesn't believe it just for him, but for everybody. He believes *no one* can be happy/normal and be a vigilante at the same time. He told Barry as much back in the crossover. And in this latest episode, he made it clear to Felicity too. It's why he sidelined Diggle way back in 301. It's why he lied to Thea for so long. And in a way, it was even what he thought of when he was dying -- the "normal life" staples of familial and romantic love, that in his mind are unattainable things that would have made him happy, if only he could have it.

 

I guess the good thing is that, even if it takes Palmer to make Oliver realize that he can have those things, Felicity is already there. This is not something she has to struggle with. Felicity doesn't believe happiness equals a normal life away from vigilantism. She actually made it clear to Oliver way back in the S2 finale, when she told him she didn't want to be safe, that she wanted to be with him in the middle of the fight, unsafe. And last week, she told Oliver that as long as he is in her life, she's happy. And by that she meant all aspects of his life, including the Arrow part. She's never compartmentalized him into two different people. Oliver makes her happy, warts and all.

 

And hey, Diggle also disagree with Oliver on this. If you need a clue: he just got married to Lyla again.

 

This show has gone out of its way to attach happiness to relationships. Both familial and romantic, sure, but this has been a gigantic anvil hovering over every characters' heads from day one: happiness means the other people in your lives. They've linked Oliver's humanity to his love for Felicity [and Thea, and his parents]. That's been a big theme. So hopefully, that's the endgame for Oliver here -- realizing that YES, people can have relationships, and kids, and love, and happiness. And that he can be Oliver Queen, and a boyfriend, and a brother, and have a day job, and go on vacations, all at the same time, while also wearing green leather and fighting crime at night.

[Morrigan2575]

I thought Oliver caught a bit of that by the end of the episode.  During the Diggle/Oliver talk Diggle mentioned that being on TA and Lyla being in Argus and both going in the field for this rescue mission was complicated.  Oliver's response was something like the the good things are worth it (can't remember the exact wording).  

 

I also took the ATOM/Arrow show down differently than most people here.  When Oliver said she chose you and to trust Felicity it seemed like he had already realized his stance against Ray can't be with Felicity and be a Vigilante was wrong which is why he never even brought it up to Ray.  I mean if Oliver's entire argument is people like us can't get the girl (which he stated to Barry...I still think that was more projecting than anything else), he should/could have given the same argument to Ray.  Instead he kind of just gave up and was like well if this is what she wants then you better prove worthy of her.  

 

I could be totally wrong but it seemed to me that the Dyla Wedding, Dyla field work and Raylicity being partners in crime/relationship was like a tiny little lightbulb flickering in his head that maybe, just maybe he's wrong.