Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

Sure, Felicity could try to throw Oliver on the bed and have her way with him but he's just going to quietly take her by the arms, put her aside and tell her yet again that he can't be with her for reasons.  And she'll have lost not only Oliver but whatever dignity she had left.

 

Trust me, there's no way to fight for a man who honestly believes being with you is off the table.

 

 

And just a side note, Diggles ended up working with the man he hates the most, the man who killed his brother to save the woman he loves, more than once

But Diggle refused to work with Malcolm Merlyn because while Deadshot is a hired killer, MM is a mass murderer who has no scruples at all.  Diggle can work out a relationship with Deadshot because he has a code and standards but there is not way MM can be trusted. As Diggle said, to work with him is the first step to becoming him.

 

Or what apinknightmare said.

[Password]

Eh. Look would I like Felicity to "fight" for Oliver by at LEAST telling him she wants him and a relationship? Sure, think of all the tumblr gifs and YouTube fanvids. Glorious.

Do I understand why she doesn't? Sure. I blame the writing, not the characters for this non-talking bull. But then my problems with 3b stem from plot contrivance, rather than stall tactics. Someone mentioned Oliver didn't give her a chance to talk before he dove into Merlyn. Very true but I don't blame Oliver for it, I blame the writers because they lack compassion.

Tbh Raylicity will be more farcical than Sariver. That's why I'm sitting it out. Don't particularly care for Ray, have no time to see Felicity fall for him.

[Hook75]

Eh. Look would I like Felicity to "fight" for Oliver by at LEAST telling him she wants him and a relationship? Sure, think of all the tumblr gifs and YouTube fanvids. Glorious.

 

 

At least SHOW us all those dreams that Felicity said she had while Oliver was dead.

 

Sure, Felicity could try to throw Oliver on the bed and have her way with him but he's just going to quietly take her by the arms, put her aside and tell her yet again that he can't be with her for reasons. 

 

 

She won't know until she tries, LOL.

 

 

And she'll have lost not only Oliver but whatever dignity she had left.

 

 

 

But Oliver should fight for her while she is with another man? Dignity goes both ways. 

 

 

Don't particularly care for Ray, have no time to see Felicity fall for him.

 

 

That is what upsets me the most, I REALLY don't like Ray and that means that any Felicity scenes from now until we are free of Ray are going to be FFed by me.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Hook75

[Danny Franks]

Sure, Felicity could try to throw Oliver on the bed and have her way with him but he's just going to quietly take her by the arms, put her aside and tell her yet again that he can't be with her for reasons.  And she'll have lost not only Oliver but whatever dignity she had left.

 

And yet, when it comes to a man having to 'win the love of a good woman' in this sort of story, dignity goes out of the window. Running through the rain, declaring love in front of a crowd, putting it all out there when she's with another guy, risking everything to prove himself, all that corny stuff. While the woman just has to smile indulgently and accept his affections. I find the common views of romance in fiction to be rather bizarrely skewed, much of the time.

 

Oliver has to win Felicity, meanwhile her main goal is keeping her dignity. If that ain't unbalanced, I don't know what is.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Danny Franks

[apinknightmare]

Oh, please. 

 

Let's review: Oliver asks Felicity out on a date, he finally tells her that MAYBE he can be with her. The restaurant blows up. He tries to push her away immediately, and she puts him off. He tells Diggle, in front of her, that Diggle has a life that Oliver "can't have." He tells Felicity he can't be with her because he can't be Oliver Queen and the Arrow, but OMG don't make him tell her he doesn't love her! They're steady working together, doing fine, when he tells Felicity that he's glad she went through the things she did, because they made her the woman she is today, and she knows how he feels about her! Still can't be Oliver Queen though, sorry. Then he gets pissed off and off kilter when she says she's going to a work dinner with Ray, but he tells Diggle that he made a choice, dude! So did Felicity! He just wants her to be happy and btw Cupid, I know what it's like to want someone and not be able to be with them. You there, Felicity? Good. Listen to this one more time: can't be with ya, sorry! He tells Barry he needs to get over Iris because guys like them don't get the girl, but oh, before he goes off to Ra's he's got to make sure Felicity knows that he loves her...before he walks out. 

 

When he comes back? She runs into his arms, cries because she's so happy to see him. Then he tells her he's working with Malcolm Merlyn, something she vehemently insisted he'd never do. Her belief in him is a little shaken. When she gets angry and points that out to him, what does he say? That's not why she's upset, no. She's angry because he didn't come back wanting to be with her AFTER HE TOLD HER HE LOVED HER RIGHT BEFORE HE LEFT. 

 

That's how many instances of him dangling a relationship in front of her/letting her know his feelings without doing anything about them/telling her he can't be with her? I can't even be bothered to count at this point. 

Meanwhile, what has Felicity done apart from be excited about their date, give him time to think about what he was doing, and TELL HIM OUTRIGHT that once he told her it was over? That it was over. And then she stuck to her word. 

 

Dignity? Please. If Oliver was so worried about dignity, he should've thought about that before acting like an indecisive asshat. 

Edited February 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[jay741982]

Oh, please.

Let's review: Oliver asks Felicity out on a date, he finally tells her that MAYBE he can be with her. The restaurant blows up. He tries to push her away immediately, and she puts him off. He tells Diggle, in front of her, that Diggle has a life that Oliver "can't have." He tells Felicity he can't be with her because he can't be Oliver Queen and the Arrow, but OMG don't make him tell her he doesn't love her! They're steady working together, doing fine, when he tells Felicity that he's glad she went through the things she did, because they made her the woman she is today, and she knows how he feels about her! Still can't be Oliver Queen though, sorry. Then he gets pissed off and off kilter when she says she's going to a work dinner with Ray, but he tells Diggle that he made a choice, dude! So did Felicity! He just wants her to be happy and btw Cupid, I know what it's like to want someone and not be able to be with them. You there, Felicity? Good. Listen to this one more time: can't be with ya, sorry! He tells Barry he needs to get over Iris because guys like them don't get the girl, but oh, before he goes off to Ra's he's got to make sure Felicity knows that he loves her...before he walks out.

When he comes back? She runs into his arms, cries because she's so happy to see him. Then he tells her he's working with Malcolm Merlyn, something she vehemently insisted he'd never do. Her belief in him is a little shaken. When she gets angry and points that out to him, what does he say? That's not why she's upset, no. She's angry because he didn't come back wanting to be with her AFTER HE TOLD HER HE LOVED HER RIGHT BEFORE HE LEFT.

That's how many instances of him dangling a relationship in front of her/letting her know his feelings without doing anything about them/told her he can't be with her? I can't even be bothered to count at this point.

Meanwhile, what has Felicity done apart from be excited about their date, give him time to think about what he was doing, and TELL HIM OUTRIGHT that once he told her it was over? That it was over. And then she stuck to her word.

Dignity? Please. If Oliver was so worried about dignity, he should've thought about that before acting like an indecisive asshat.

Bravo!! You just listed why I get mad when People are Turning on Felicity for taking a chance on Ray when Oliver loves her but yet he won't do anything about it and continues being stupid cause the writers jerk off to him being a dumbass. I do not want Raylicity and God knows my fellow posters know how I feel lol BUT I'm not gonna hate Felicity when she is so tired of Oliver dicking her around. Edited February 22, 2015 by jay741982

[statsgirl]

But Oliver should fight for her while she is with another man? Dignity goes both ways.

He can't fight for her but he can tell her he loves her and then when he comes back push her away again.  Talk about passive-aggressive.

 

I disagree that Felicity isn't fighting for Oliver. She is. She keeps sticking around even though he constantly pushes her away, keeps dangling maybes after she asked him not to.  She keeps coming in to work in the lair, being there for Oliver, there in case he ever changes his mind.

 

Could she argue with him? Sure, she could make one stand. And then when Oliver shuts her down, because you know he will, his mind is like a shut steel trap, what is she supposed to do then?  Stop being on the team, or keep coming in, humiliated at the rejection and coming back for more?

 

When he comes back? She runs into his arms, cries because she's so happy to see him. Then he tells her he's working with Malcolm Merlyn, something she vehemently insisted he'd never do. Her belief in him is a little shaken. When she gets angry and points that out to him, what does he say? That's not why she's upset, no. She's angry because he didn't come back wanting to be with her AFTER HE TOLD HER HE LOVED HER RIGHT BEFORE HE LEFT. 

 

That's how many instances of him dangling a relationship in front of her/letting her know his feelings without doing anything about them/told her he can't be with her? I can't even be bothered to count at this point. 

apinknightmare, I want to marry this post.

 

At this point, what Oliver is doing has moved beyond love and into cruelty.

Edited February 22, 2015 by statsgirl

[quarks]

To be fair, Felicity has said something to Oliver on this show. Twice. She told him in the "The Calm" that she didn't want to talk, because once they did it would be over - pretty strongly implying that she didn't want it to be over.  When he came back after not really dying, she told him that she had spent the time while he was not exactly dead hoping that if he came back, things would be different - presumably because he told her "I love you."

 

Their real problem, of course, is that thanks to television law, they can't really deal with any of this until May. 

[Password]

Their real problem, of course, is that thanks to television law, they can't really deal with any of this until May.

Yep.

[icandigit]

I'm not sure how to weigh in here, so I guess I'll just throw out some random thoughts. When Felicity told Oliver she didn't want to be a women he loved, my first thought was kinda ok, bye then. Oliver is severely damaged and she is in the unfortunate situation of maybe falling in love with him. I've never been of the mind that Oliver needs to get his self together to be worthy of Felicity. I think Oliver is messed up and can only go so far on his own. What if he never gets wherever there is supposed to be?

 

I think if you want a relationship with someone like that, then the saner party may need to do more in this situation. I think that would be the nature of a relationship with someone like that. Heck, it can be the nature of relationships in general depending on the circumstances. Maybe its that I'm and old fogey, but it's not always this 50/50 thing. If Felicity decides to walk away I won't hate her. But, I do believe love can involve fighting for someone even at the risk of losing dignity.

 

If Oliver were doing something intentionally to hurt Felicity. I would hate him. But, him being messed up and struggling with basically everything, makes it hard for him to hate him just for being misguided.

Edited February 22, 2015 by icandigit

[Genki]

Bravo!! You just listed why I get mad when People are Turning on Felicity for taking a chance on Ray when Oliver loves her but yet he won't do anything about it and continues being stupid cause the writers jerk off to him being a dumbass. I do not want Raylicity and God knows my fellow posters know how I feel lol BUT I'm not gonna hate Felicity when she is so tired of Oliver dicking her around.

 

I think unfortunately the issue will always be with the writing and for this season, Oliver point of view have been shown and it has been consistent, which has not been the case for Felicity.

 

Oliver is acting stupid in regards to Felicity and MM but the key here, for me, is that it is hurting him as much as it is hurting her. I try not to look at Oliver's actions as what he should or should not be doing in a romantic situation but as what would make sense for his character, considering the trauma and the loss he has experienced. I think he knows he is too damaged but he doesn't realise that Felicity would help with healing the damage, and that he is hurting her in the process.

 

With Felicity I try to do the same. I know she has abandonment issues and the awful stuff with Cooper was just a reopening of a closed wound, but I don't believe walking away from Oliver was to save her dignity. I think that if it wasn't relationship related Felicity would stand up to Oliver more, as she does on any of his dumb decisions, but this is her heart and emotions so I understand her protecting herself, but I think the healthier response was to fight more for it. She doesn't trust Oliver, with good reason, but her putting faith in Oliver with regards to her heart would help her heal too.

 

For me they both need to trust in each other to make any relationship work. Oliver needs to trust that Felicity can handle the damage and pain that he endured and continues to endure and Felicity needs to trust that Oliver can be there for her and not run away if things get tough. For the relationship to move it forward they both need to grow and work on their issues.

 

There are a lot of reason why Felicity is getting the blame, and it is annoying and frustrating but I don't think her character is perfect and there have been a lot of ways where Felicity has acted OOC, for me, this season. Everyone keeps alluding to Felicity's feelings for Oliver and I don't doubt that they are there too but, while the show is leaving me in no doubt about what Oliver want/needs and his reasoning, I'm still floundering and fan-wanking Felcity's POV.

 

I really doesn't help that TIIC are deliberately writing Felicity in a way to make Raylicity viable. Especially since that is where I'm getting the biggest sense of OOC and wtf-ness. Felicity with Ray, for me, is undermining her as a character. Accepting the all the stuff about Ray which makes me uncomfortable makes it harder for me to relate to Felicity, when I was pretty sure about her last season. Not to mention other stuff like allowing Laurel to actively deceive Lance...Whoa!!

 

They really need to show more scenes of Oliver and Felicity communicating, because all we are getting is "powerful dramatic scenes" which MG loves so much, ("I told you it would be over", "I want more form life", "I don't want to be a woman you love") then next on camera scenes are  leaving the audience puzzled as to how they got there form where they were before. 

[statsgirl]

I took the "if that's what you do to women you love, I don't want to be a woman you love" as saying 'get your head out of your ass'.  It was an attempt to show him how stupid he's being.  Since Oliver's done nothing in the meantime, not even talk to Felicity about how she feels and that she's been hurt, that pretty much says that he's not going to budge from where he's standing right now.

 

Felicity's abandonment issues don't even play into it for me at this point.  Even a completely healthy person should run from who Oliver is this season because he's like a flashing sign "Doomed Relationship Material".

 

 

Their real problem, of course, is that thanks to television law, they can't really deal with any of this until May.

Why does it have to be May sweeps?  Given all the Laurel/BC stuff, I think the February sweeps could have used a little perking up.

[apinknightmare]

 If Felicity decides to walk away I won't hate her. But, I do believe love can involve fighting for someone even at the risk of losing dignity.

 

 

But the problem with that talk they had, and what Felicity said, was that it really wasn't at all about their relationship at all. It was about what love means to Oliver, what he does in the name of it. Felicity told Oliver that he was abandoning every principle he claimed to have by teaming up with Malcolm, in order to protect Thea, while turning a blind eye to what Malcolm had done to Thea AND to Sara, both women that Oliver loved. It seemed to me that she was saying "if this is what love makes you do, I don't want to be one of those people you toss away your principles for. If this is what love is to you, I don't want you to love me." 

 

I think if she really, really wanted to put an end to that relationship she would've said "I don't love you. And I don't want you to love me." But it's a writing issue too, and like others above have said, Oliver and Felicity can't talk it out or make any progress on that front until May - if even then. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

So Ive been toying around the idea in my head... what if Ray approaches a situation from a way that Felicity doesn't agree with either. We keep on thinking that her great epiphany will be that Ray does all these great things in good ways, while Oliver does the opposite. What if we keep thinking this epiphany will bring her and Ray closer together, when really it brings them further apart? What if it brings her closer to Oliver? I mean if 19 may be a back door pilot to Atom, and there are supposedly no plans to take Felicity there, some tension needs to develop between them to separate them from each other's hip. At some point, Ray is gonna have to prove he can exist/act/be without Felicity on the screen. The only one that really said she would have a serious choice/conflict between the 2 was AK, and he's not running the show this season, so how much input does he have? He just wants people to watch them on the crossover, of course he'll oversell this great dynamic.

 

It might be pie in the sky thinking, but it does make me wonder sometimes, that maybe Im focusing too much on Raylicity being inevitable, when there is no indication that Felicity will board that ship either. Felicity may just flounder around without making any decision. She might not even date Ray either. I think her abandonment / trust issues will be a bigger influencer than any other factor.

Edited February 23, 2015 by kismet

[jay741982]

I took the "if that's what you do to women you love, I don't want to be a woman you love" as saying 'get your head out of your ass'.  It was an attempt to show him how stupid he's being.  Since Oliver's done nothing in the meantime, not even talk to Felicity about how she feels and that she's been hurt, that pretty much says that he's not going to budge from where he's standing right now.

 

Felicity's abandonment issues don't even play into it for me at this point.  Even a completely healthy person should run from who Oliver is this season because he's like a flashing sign "Doomed Relationship Material".

 

Why does it have to be May sweeps?  Given all the Laurel/BC stuff, I think the February sweeps could have used a little perking up.

Why do that when we can get the debut of Ray in his ridiculous suit and probably getting Felicity Wednesday night? "Rolls Eyes" Lord give me strength I can not stand Ray or Oliver not getting a break thanks a lot writers

[icandigit]

The writing is really confusing me though. If she would have said anything else besides "I don't want to be a women you love" I would have come away from the scene with a totally different impression. The fact that she used that phrase indicated to me that is was about their relationship. And it was a very intentional burn.

[Password]

Well I think you could say Felicity laid the gauntlet for Oliver when she said "if this is how you love and honour women in your life, count me out". Now because Oliver has to be an idiot for the time being I can totally see him taking that as "I don't want you to love me", instead of the added condition.

If/when Oliver changes his mind about how to handle Ra's, the subject may be broached again because Felicity wasn't just talking about their relationship, but how he handles relationships in general.

[statsgirl]

I think MG wanted to have it both ways, to be about their relationship but also about Oliver's moral views.  He loves Thea in a brotherly way and he said he would do anything to protect her but he's not doing that at all by letting her believe the lies about MM and working with him.

So Ive been toying around the idea in my head... what if Ray approaches a situation from a way that Felicity doesn't agree with either. We keep on thinking that her great epiphany will be that Ray does all these great things in good ways, while Oliver does the opposite. What if we keep thinking this epiphany will bring her and Ray closer together, when really it brings them further apart?

It's possible it pushes them further apart but if 3x19 is going to be a backdoor pilot for The Atom, Ray's got to be a good guy in it.

[apinknightmare]

The writing is really confusing me though. If she would have said anything else besides "I don't want to be a women you love" I would have come away from the scene with a totally different impression. The fact that she used that phrase indicated to me that is was about their relationship. And it was a very intentional burn.

 

I mean, it could've been. But just before that she was happy he was home and told him she fantasized about him coming home and doing things differently (their relationship). If she had just said she didn't want to be a woman he loved that would be one thing, but since she was talking about him teaming up with Malcolm and then went on to point out what Malcolm had done to women he loved, the fact that she phrased what she said in relation to Sara and Thea made me think she wasn't so much talking about not wanting to be loved by him because he was undesirable or unworthy as a partner, but that she didn't want to be loved by him because he was showing through his actions that his love didn't mean very much/made him do questionable things. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

At least Oliver has told Thea about Merlyn's atrocities. I wonder what Felicity would've said if she saw that.

Well he's still working with Merlyn so never mind.

[kismet]

I think MG wanted to have it both ways, to be about their relationship but also about Oliver's moral views.  He loves Thea in a brotherly way and he said he would do anything to protect her but he's not doing that at all by letting her believe the lies about MM and working with him.

It's possible it pushes them further apart but if 3x19 is going to be a backdoor pilot for The Atom, Ray's got to be a good guy in it.

Think you're right that the MG line was specifically worded to go multiple ways, it was so specific and yet so vague.

 

Felicity could disagree with Ray and Ray could still be a good guy. I think it was describing as being a different in the way O & R handle a situation. Both could be right, its hard to say what the difference is considering that we have no idea about any of the specifics. But in my head, I always see Ray has more of self-serving perspective on his motives, while Oliver has more of a self-sacrificing perspective. In extremes, both can be bad. Learning to find a balance is where heroism is usually most successful. So maybe that comes into play. Maybe she begins to understand more of each of the other's choices. She's had some pretty enlightening speeches to LL, that have highlighted both elements, so maybe she starts to put it all together and begins to understand what she actually believes.

[Hook75]

I don't think Oliver is an idiot. I think he is desperate and loves his sister very much, he was willing to die for her, teaming up with MM is means to an end...I'm holding my judgment until the finale. Oliver knew that his choice would come with a price (losing Felicity) and he chose to pay it, which is what he meant when he told Felicity that she is really upset about them and not MM.

[AyChihuahua]

The only reason Thea is in danger is because Malcolm is holding that videotape over their heads.  Teaming up with him is insanity.

[apinknightmare]

Oliver knew that his choice would come with a price (losing Felicity) and he chose to pay it, which is what he meant when he told Felicity that she is really upset about them and not MM.

 

That would make sense if Felicity had been privy to the conversation Oliver had with Tatsu about how teaming with Malcolm would cost Oliver the thing most precious to him - she wasn't. So she wasn't aware at the time that Oliver was knowingly sacrificing anything. What he was doing by mansplaining her anger was attempting to invalidate it - it was probably easier for him to think that she was angry that he didn't want to/couldn't be with her than it was to think that she really believed that he had compromised his principles. 

[MostlyC]

If you don't have anything new to add to the discussion (and you know who you are), move it along.  

There are many other relationships on Arrow to discuss.

[BkWurm1]

I'm really at a loss as to what Laurel brings to the team, as a vigilante.

 

She is not skilful and more a liability in the field, she doesn't have the tech smarts, or the strategic experience. She doesn't have medical knowledge (this is a skill set they totally need, current situation stretches credibility quite a bit for me).

 

The only value Laurel can bring to the team is her legal expertise, she should be like a mob lawyer, setting up contingencies, escape plans etc, for if TA ever get identified, or on the wrong side of the law. As well as cook the criminals caught by them.

 

It's frustrating because everything has been broken and twisted around for Laurel but she doesn't bring any real value to Team Arrow or the show. 

And I fear they are doing it for Ray as well 

Having a metahuman come in for 3.19 apparently a Ray episode, likely justifies Ray's ATOM suit and addition to the team/show, so basically twisting everything (no powers rule) around again to make an unnecessary character happen.

She's technically extra muscle - which is hilarious since she almost has none, but that's her role now, to be pointed at the bad guy and hit them.  Maybe occasionally threaten to hit a not so bad guy to get info about the bad guy. (Who are we kidding, she's totally going to hit them too - probably break their arm)  

 

They might pretend she has special access to info through the DA, but we know very well Felicity could access that stuff without her. 

 

So to sum up, Laurel is Roy's back up.   

[lemotomato]

So, Raylicity.

I'm assuming it's inevitable at this point. But even though there has been lots of discussion about Ray's behavior and about how Felicity deserves a love interest because she can't sit around waiting for Oliver, I'm interested in why people are not addressing the fact that if/when Raylicity happens, Felicity will be dating her boss. And that this will be the second time in as many years that she'll have gotten a high ranking position in a company where she is rumored to be involved with the man that gave her the job.

I know the plot reasons for Raylicity, but what in-universe reason would Felicity have to do something tantamount to career suicide? She didn't have a choice about being Oliver's EA, but she can choose whether or not to date Ray. And I don't see her throwing away a career that she just got back on track just because, what? Ray is there and Oliver isn't?

[Guest]

These writers/EP's are the same people who don't think pinging cell phones is stalker behavior so of course they're not considering the fact that Felicity will be dating her boss. I bet it didn't even cross their minds so the characters won't acknowledge it either.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Guest

[HighHopes]

So, Raylicity.

I'm assuming it's inevitable at this point. But even though there has been lots of discussion about Ray's behavior and about how Felicity deserves a love interest because she can't sit around waiting for Oliver, I'm interested in why people are not addressing the fact that if/when Raylicity happens, Felicity will be dating her boss. And that this will be the second time in as many years that she'll have gotten a high ranking position in a company where she is rumored to be involved with the man that gave her the job.

I know the plot reasons for Raylicity, but what in-universe reason would Felicity have to do something tantamount to career suicide? She didn't have a choice about being Oliver's EA, but she can choose whether or not to date Ray. And I don't see her throwing away a career that she just got back on track just because, what? Ray is there and Oliver isn't?

 

Felicity isn't working directly for Ray right now though, like she was for Oliver. With Oliver her desk was right outside his office, and it was for a position she was not qualified for at all. (And then there's the cliche hot billionaire promotes hot secretary so they can secretly bang thing that is gross but can happen). Ray and Felicity are more...equals in the work place? imo. While he is the CEO, she is a VP of somethingsomething I Forget. Felicity is beyond qualified for the job Ray gave her, she has two masters from MIT. If anyone questions her she can just point them out to the person. She wasn't qualified to be an EA at all. 

 

I'm not 100% happy with Ray and the Raylicity storyline, and it wasn't what I wanted for a love interest for Felicity this season. But so far, I'm okay with it. 

[AustenChick]

I'm wondering how people view the Oliver/Malcolm relationship. One of the things I'm trying to wrap my head around is why Merlyn does just face Ra's himself. Does Merlyn actually think Oliver can defeat Ra's even though Merlyn trained under Ra's? If he did, I guess it's a valid POV as Oliver did beat Merlyn.

[kili]

One of the things I'm trying to wrap my head around is why Merlyn does just face Ra's himself.

 

Why not make Oliver try first? If Oliver wins because of some "Heros Always Win" or "Different Fighting Strategy" or "Blind Luck", problem solved.

 

If Oliver dies, what does Malcom really care? He hasn't really lost anything. He may have to fight Ra's eventually, but might as well exhaust all the other possibilities first. Oliver's got a chance, so its not a total waste of time. Bonus: If Oliver dies, one thorn in his side removed. If Oliver succeeds, Malcolm will take partial credit and expect a favour from him.

 

I'm only seeing upsides for Malcolm here.

[Ang]

I'm wondering how people view the Oliver/Malcolm relationship. One of the things I'm trying to wrap my head around is why Merlyn does just face Ra's himself. Does Merlyn actually think Oliver can defeat Ra's even though Merlyn trained under Ra's? If he did, I guess it's a valid POV as Oliver did beat Merlyn.

Very good questions. I'm assuming the whole "is MM redeemable??" thing is nonsense; they're humanizing him a tiny bit, but hey, even horrible people are still people. I'm hoping Oliver isn't naive enough to fully mean the whole, "Malcolm is my new sensei!" shtick. Hopefully this is a case of each one using the other for their own maybe-or-maybe-not fully seen purposes. I hope they add some dimension to the relationship, though; there's potential for a little more exploration of Malcolm's twisted idea of parenthood and what family and love mean to Oliver. Edited February 25, 2015 by Ang

[apinknightmare]

But of course, if Felicity and Oliver were open with each other, Felicity wouldn't be so isolated and there would be no reason for Ray to spend so much time comforting her. And then they couldn't have their fun playing with another superhero whilst ruining other characters. 

 

Thing is, they could still have the same issues even if they did talk, but I'd feel much, much better about the situation. I don't think there's anything that could change Felicity's mind about it being a terrible idea to work with Malcolm, and I think Oliver's so scared that he probably wouldn't listen to reason about it right away since Thea's all he's got left and he's so desperate to do what he thinks he has to to "save her" that it would take some long-term chipping to get through to him and work out some other kind of plan.

 

But if they did talk it out and lay out their issues and still disagreed with each other but decided to keep working together, I'd be more sympathetic to both of them, and all of this would be somewhat easier to watch. 

Edited February 25, 2015 by apinknightmare

[doesntworkonwood]

Thing is, they could still have the same issues even if they did talk, but I'd feel much, much better about the situation. I don't think there's anything that could change Felicity's mind about it being a terrible idea to work with Malcolm, and I think Oliver's so scared that he probably wouldn't listen to reason about it right away since Thea's all he's got left and he's so desperate to do what he thinks he has to to "save her" that it would take some long-term chipping to get through to him and work out some other kind of plan.

 

But if they did talk it out and lay out their issues and still disagreed with each other but decided to keep working together, I'd be more sympathetic to both of them, and all of this would be somewhat easier to watch. 

 

I totally agree with you. A conversation doesn't mean that either of them would back down on their views. A conversation would mean that both of them (and the audience) are aware where the other is coming from, and there is a lot less bitterness and snark coming from Felicity, and a lot less resignation coming from Oliver. 

 

My point about Ray was that because they've not had these conversations, Felicity is left feeling betrayed an upset, rather than accepting but not condoning, which opens up the gateway for her to be open with Ray rather than Oliver, which is what the writers want because it's the only way for him to actually be relevant, and IMO they have no grasp on 'good angst' vs 'bad angst' 

[apinknightmare]

My point about Ray was that because they've not had these conversations, Felicity is left feeling betrayed an upset, rather than accepting but not condoning, which opens up the gateway for her to be open with Ray rather than Oliver, which is what the writers want because it's the only way for him to actually be relevant, and IMO they have no grasp on 'good angst' vs 'bad angst' 

 

Yes, absolutely. And I just realized that I pasted the wrong part of your entry in that quote when I replied, haha. I wasn't disagreeing with you at all.

Edited February 25, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

Thing is, they could still have the same issues even if they did talk, but I'd feel much, much better about the situation. I don't think there's anything that could change Felicity's mind about it being a terrible idea to work with Malcolm, and I think Oliver's so scared that he probably wouldn't listen to reason about it right away since Thea's all he's got left and he's so desperate to do what he thinks he has to to "save her" that it would take some long-term chipping to get through to him and work out some other kind of plan.

 

But if they did talk it out and lay out their issues and still disagreed with each other but decided to keep working together, I'd be more sympathetic to both of them, and all of this would be somewhat easier to watch. 

Totally agree. A real conversation is overdue. At least if they explained their stances, they could understand where the other is coming from. Doubt that it would change their opinions, but at least you know they respect each other to hear the other person out. That's what makes this new approach to the characters so hard to swallow, is they actually could have differences and still manage to have a functional working relationships. Likewise, even if they completely agreed on everything, they could have the most dysfunctional working relationships. But the reality is by not even talking to each other, just throwing some verbal grenades at each other they are acting completely in a way that doesn't reflect the partnership platonic or romantic that they have built up over 3 years. It is just bizarre to watch. I may not agree with the writer's choices or the direction of the show as it seems, but if they had some gosh honest conversations between pivotal characters, it would make all the bitter scenes easier to swallow.

[KirkB]

Oliver clearly doesn't like or trust Malcolm. At this point, even protecting/helping Thea isn't an excuse anymore. He's pure and simple trying to learn from someone who has superior archery skills and knowledge of the League. In Oliver's mind, I'll bet, once Ra's is defeated he will wrap Malcolm up in a shiny red bow and hand him over to Quentin.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Oliver clearly doesn't like or trust Malcolm. At this point, even protecting/helping Thea isn't an excuse anymore. He's pure and simple trying to learn from someone who has superior archery skills and knowledge of the League. In Oliver's mind, I'll bet, once Ra's is defeated he will wrap Malcolm up in a shiny red bow and hand him over to Quentin.

He didn't before, though.  No prison can hold Merlyn and all that BS.

[BkWurm1]

I totally agree with you. A conversation doesn't mean that either of them would back down on their views. A conversation would mean that both of them (and the audience) are aware where the other is coming from, and there is a lot less bitterness and snark coming from Felicity, and a lot less resignation coming from Oliver.

 

Sadly I think the writers feel that a conversation that only explains their points of view but doesn't change anything would be a waste of screen time and that irks me greatly since they are fine with wasting our time with these angry moments that also change nothing.  What a conversation would change is my growing desire to change the channel. 

[quarks]

I'm surprised there's not more Felicity backlash like I was expecting?

More people are happy that she finally had sex. :p

Also, DocBrown said that the producers seemed really worried about the reaction to Ray/felicity and their scene... Yeah, great vote of confidence right there. smh. If they were worried why bother going through with it at all?

 

 

They should be worried.

 

One of the least popular and most highly criticized aspects of the first season was the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy love triangle. One of the least popular parts of the second season was the Sara/Oliver hookup. These were both cited as reasons viewers stopped watching the show, and the ratings drop after the Oliver/Sara hookup - which stayed low for most of the rest of the season - has got to be worrying the producers.

 

Ray/Felicity does have a few things going for it that the Sara/Oliver hookup, at least, didn't:  One, it's been set up, so it didn't come as a shock to viewers. Two, it doesn't involve cheating and/or sisters and/or best friends. Three, very much unlike the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle, it has "temporary" written all over it, and after Oliver/Sara last season, I don't think most viewers will be that worried about Ray/Felicity lasting.

 

Against that, the response from viewers so far has not been enthusiastic, and this is a show trying to sell a spinoff focused on Ray. And temporary love rivals tend not to be that popular.

 

Meanwhile, I'm still boggled that the Ray/Felicity could only happen because Felicity decided to leave an assassin in a cage in the Arrow Cave with only Laurel, of all people, sticking around (and not even staying around - she was gone when Thea arrived). I realize that that also helped to ensure that Felicity wasn't in the Arrow Cave when Thea came by - but it still made no sense.

[dcinmb]

Felicity isn't working directly for Ray right now though, like she was for Oliver. With Oliver her desk was right outside his office, and it was for a position she was not qualified for at all. (And then there's the cliche hot billionaire promotes hot secretary so they can secretly bang thing that is gross but can happen). Ray and Felicity are more...equals in the work place? imo. While he is the CEO, she is a VP of somethingsomething I Forget. Felicity is beyond qualified for the job Ray gave her, she has two masters from MIT. If anyone questions her she can just point them out to the person. She wasn't qualified to be an EA at all.

 

I would actually say that Felicity is vastly overqualified to be Oliver's EA and underqualified to be Ray's VP. Regardless of her two MS degrees from MIT (which isn't that unusual), very few 25-year-olds are VPs or even directors at major corporations and if they are, it's probably due to nepotism. (Of course, high-tech start-ups and small companies are a different story, but I'm assuming Palmer Technologies is a large corporation.) I have friends that went to MIT, Harvard, Caltech, Oxford, etc., including one that graduated from Stanford with his PhD in Electrical Engineering when he was only 21, and none of them were in senior management roles by their mid- or even late-twenties. When my friends and I graduated from MBA school at 27 - 28, most of us took corporate jobs as assistant managers and managers and didn't make it to the director/VP ranks until well into our thirties. And it's also unlikely that VP Felicity would be reporting directly to CEO Ray. I've worked for several Fortune 500 companies and in my experience, VPs don't generally report directly to CEOs of large corporations as there are also SVPs, EVPs, presidents, etc.

[apinknightmare]

From the Behind the Mask thread, regarding Felicity sleeping with her boss:

 

 

We're in the minority, unfortunately. All of Felicity's defenders on tumblr are either ignoring that Ray's her boss or calling people sexist for pointing it out.

 

Yeah, this was a dynamic that I didn't particularly care for last season with Oliver. And now that they rectified that, they're doing it again with Ray. It's somewhat better in that she's not the cliched assistant nailing an executive, but Ray does still sign her paychecks, and I'm just never a fan of that workplace dynamic. My mother was a big fan of workplace romances, and had to relocate several times because of it once they went bad. 

 

But, Felicity won't suffer any of the real-life consequences that people generally do when things go sour between a boss and employee, so I can go with it here. I just wish Ray didn't have that power over her (not that I get the impression from him that he's vindictive at all in a way that would make her pay for this professionally when they break up). 

Edited February 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[lemotomato]

 

Yeah, this was a dynamic that I didn't particularly care for last season with Oliver. And now that they rectified that, they're doing it again with Ray. It's somewhat better in that she's not the cliched assistant nailing an executive, but Ray does still sign her paychecks, and I'm just never a fan of that workplace dynamic. My mother was a big fan of workplace romances, and had to relocate several times because of it once they went bad. 

 

But, Felicity won't suffer any of the real-life consequences that people generally do when things go sour between a boss and employee, so I can go with it here. I just wish Ray didn't have that power over her (not that I get the impression from him that he's vindictive at all in a way that would make her pay for this professionally when they break up). 

I'll admit that I'm also harping on this point because I've seen boss-employee relationships end up very badly, and also have heard horror stories about how careful women in tech have to be about their behavior even around male co-workers. So it bothers me to see Felicity, who at one point was working a Buy More just to make ends meet, would risk throwing her newly revived career away for no other reason than, well, she's lonely, and Ray's here while Oliver's not. 

 

But like you said, she'll never have to deal with any fallout on the show. MG has already said he doesn't care and neither do most of her fans (who have also all collectively handwaved Ray's stalking because they're so happy she's getting some.)

[bethy]

Like Ben Wyatt and Leslie Knope - most perfectly handled relationship on any show I've ever watched.

I agree that the show runners are tempted to tease and drag out until no one cares anymore. But I suppose the point of my original post was that O&F was just made canon 15 eps ago, so I figured people wouldn't be so tired of the teasing yet, haha.

 

 

Preach it on Ben and Leslie - so amazing.

 

I think I would be more open to the tease if it weren't being handled so bleakly with the Oliver and Felicity so at odds. For me, it's just not fun to watch. And I stuck it out for Mulder and Scully for how many years?

[SmallScreenDiva]

There was a very nice moment last night between Oliver and Felicity that reminded me of how they were in the past. Oliver returns to the lair after Malcolm was taken by the LOA and he's furious at Laurel. He's trying to tell them why (he thinks) it's a bad idea for Malcolm to be taken. He's yelling but kind of calms down when he starts talking to Dig, then he turns to Felicity and talks about not wanting the guilt of being a part of a parent's death to be on Thea and Oliver's voice goes so soft it almost drops to a whisper. For the first time in a really long while, Oliver explains what's going on in his head to Felicity (and the rest of the people in the lair; I refuse to call them Team Arrow). He says please. She acquiesces and tells him she's going to start looking at airfields. And his whole demeanor changes, like a huge burden is lifted off him. That part of the scene was very short and was later followed by another "fight" but I'm clinging to it. The writers haven't forgotten how to write for Oliver and Felicity. That scene showed me that. But right now they are truly writing for plot. They need Oliver and Felicity to be odds/apart for whatever dramatic thing they might be planning at the end of the season. And the characters and the relationship are suffering for it.

[kismet]

Pam & Jim from Office were also well handled. Sydney & Vaughn from Alias were angst & workplace done right. Lost & Scandal have done good couples & triangles. So there is a precedent about how to do it right. I think the most important thing when having relationships tease, sail, block, sink, resurrect and sail again is to make sure that you don't lose the integrity of the characters that made you love them separately & together. I think that is the problem that has occurred in Arrow. We have lost what made people love Felicity. I mean shes barely recognizable. Oliver is lost as well, but at least you can blame that on the PTSD, the guilt he feels for the entire world's problems. Hes being an ass at times, but sadly we also know him as that so its not as hard to take. But this season, they've stripped everything that made them who they are as a possibility. These are 2 people that no longer talk to each other. They should have talked to each other by now. The closest convo we've gotten is the alleyway argument which addressed nothing about why they are both angry, lost & confused. I blame the writers, because they can't see that they are plot destroying their characters. I also think they have trouble writing female characters which does not help them at all. They seem to think that women are 1 dimensional and only write their stories/arcs in very flat cliche ways. In the arrowverse, there are so many logical & realistic reasons why relationships are gonna be problematic, a few honest conversations are not gonna change that. Showing genuine concern for a friend who is going through a hard time does not automatically change your opinion or make you agree with them. Oliver telling Felicity all he feels is the fall is not gonna all the sudden make her agree with illogical MM plan. But at least it would show that they still care, which is the fundamental base of any relationship, romantic or not. My frustration is not that they are stalling Olicity, its that they are destroying Felicity, Oliver, Ray & other characters to do it. Its been 3 seasons & Laurel's character has barely even come up from the malarchy they threw at her character to make her a proper LI in S1. I worry that by the end of the journey to whatever endgame they have in mind, I wont even care because the characters left standing won't be the ones I rooted for in the first place. What does it profit the audience to gain their endgame but lose their characters along the way?

Edited February 26, 2015 by kismet

[Betweenthisandthat]

I can only speak for myself here, but if I cared at all about Oliver in a romantic context I'd probably be pissed about Felicity and Ray, but the more Oliver becomes Batman, the less I feel for him.  I don't understand the choices he's making, and that makes him a less desirable romantic lead.

 

I know there are accusations that Felicity is being written differently or badly, but I think Oliver might be getting some of the worst writing on the show.  He's not the character I was invested in during the first season.  I started to feel less interested in him in the second season and now it's a struggle.  In the first season I saw the PTSD, being haunted by trauma and guilt and figuring out who he was and what he wanted to do with his life.  That Oliver was trying to be a good man even if he was flawed.  

We're in the minority, unfortunately. All of Felicity's defenders on tumblr are either ignoring that Ray's her boss or calling people sexist for pointing it out.

 

I like Felicity and I don't know if everyone who doesn't like "Raylicity" is sexist.  But I do wonder if the writers are in some way throwing Oliver under the bus, making him more brooding, overbearing, stubborn to make Ray look like the sensitive, attentive one.  Oliver was her boss, and in some ways she's still working for him, still his subordinate, or at least that's how he treats her now.  I never really shipped Olicity but I liked their friendship.  He seemed to listen to Felicity.  I could understand when shippers said she brought out a light in him, that she reached him in a different way.  And now he cannot be reached.  Or she can't reach him because his head is constantly up his ass when it comes to her and what she thinks.  That has been happening since the season three premiere.  He does what he wants and what he thinks is best for everyone and he doesn't listen.  

 

Last night she said she can't do anything about Oliver but she can help Ray, and that's the difference the writers have made.  Yes, Ray has engaged in creepy, some would say unacceptable behavior - but so has Oliver, and in Ray's case, while he had to have some control over Felicity, she also has some control over him.  She can say something and he might listen.  There is no longer any give or take with Felicity and Oliver.  Felicity has no power in a relationship with Oliver as they're writing him right now. He'll do what he wants no matter what her concerns are, and that's a hard relationship to care about.  I don't get why I should want Oliver with Felicity at this point, and maybe that's what the writers were going for.  They've made Ray the better alternative to Oliver, personality-wise, and Oliver's characterization has suffered for it.  Ray has no conflicts about being with Felicity while Oliver is keeping her at a distance, and it seems she has accepted that.  The storyline isn't great, but I can't really blame her for her choices because Oliver isn't written as a viable choice anymore.  Maybe that will change.

[AyChihuahua]

 

I think I would be more open to the tease if it weren't being handled so bleakly with the Oliver and Felicity so at odds. For me, it's just not fun to watch. And I stuck it out for Mulder and Scully for how many years?

I watched X-Files from the beginning, and I never got the feeling that they simply didn't like each other.  That's what I'm getting from Felicity and Oliver now.  I have zero problems (and I am on the record about this from The Climb) with her getting some now that Oliver's back (although I'd rather it be almost anyone other than Ray), but she was, seemingly, doing that while Oliver was on his way to probably die.  I would have thought that would be a libido-killer.  Really, I can't imagine anyone doing that while a friend's life was in danger, much less this man one supposedly loves/loved.  Maybe she's just bored with his constant near-death experiences.  

[wonderwall]

I watched X-Files from the beginning, and I never got the feeling that they simply didn't like each other.  That's what I'm getting from Felicity and Oliver now.  I have zero problems (and I am on the record about this from The Climb) with her getting some now that Oliver's back (although I'd rather it be almost anyone other than Ray), but she was, seemingly, doing that while Oliver was on his way to probably die.  I would have thought that would be a libido-killer.  Really, I can't imagine anyone doing that while a friend's life was in danger, much less this man one supposedly loves/loved.  Maybe she's just bored with his constant near-death experiences.  

 

She's probably used to Oliver trying to kill himself. smh

[NoWayOut]

I was so ready to rage and drop the show once Felicity and Ray hooked up but when it actually happened it was such a non-event that I basically just shrugged it off and moved on.

 

At the end of the day I just want Felicity to be happy, and regardless of how I feel about Oliver right now, I want him to allow himself to be happy.