Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Password]

I think any relationship has the potential to become toxic, particularly with these writers. But none of what we've seen so far IMO is toxic. I am won't to call this stage in their relationship growing pains and I'm glad it's happening now and not when they're together. As @Angel12d said, a relationship with Oliver, this Oliver that has been through trauma after trauma, some angst is inevitable. Their scene in ep 12 was one of their most powerful and confrontational in the entire series. They certainly need to talk a lot more because their mic drop scenes are somewhat tiring, but I'm hopeful for them going forward.

[Genki]

I think as much as Felicity has her abandonment issues, Oliver has his own set. Namely that he does lose a lot of people that he loves in horrible ways.

 

Unlike @statsgirl I absolutely believe Oliver know what love is, but, I don't think he know what it is without a cost.

 

He loved Moira and Robert, he can be disappointed by them and delusional by them but they are his parents and most people (except for crazy extreme circumstances) love their parents. Both of these people sacrificed themselves for him and I don't think Oliver has ever felt worthy of these sacrifices.

 

As for Sara I think he loved her as a friend and partner and as a Comrade in Arms, where they both survived a war together. I think it had the potential for romantic love, if not for Felicity, Nyssa and the fact that Sara kept dying on him. I think to some degree Oliver felt that Sara being as broken down as him, plus surviving all that she had, as well as being an assassin was a "risk-free" type of love, a partner that he could share his life with, that could survive it.  Unfortunately he was proven horribly wrong, not to mention the fact that Felicity was already there in his heart locked away.

 

Shado, I ultimately think he loved her in the "love the one your with sense", but he appreciated all her good qualities. I don't think he made a choice between Shado and Sara. I think he feels the guilt of it anyway.

 

Laurel he loved (or really, really liked) the idea of. 

 

 

Tommy was the love of a best friend which he betrayed in more than one way, that is why this loss compelled him to actually change his M.O.

 

Looking at that list it is a lot of premature death and even if my assessment of his love isn't accurate, unless Oliver is a sociopath he would have felt each loss keenly.

 

Therefore I can understand why Oliver is so skittish about being in a relationship with Felicity. Especially at the first sign of any adversity. I don't like it, and I'm frustrated by it, (not to mention the Meta reasons for it) but I can understand it from a character motivation point of view. I think he was slowly, slowly healing and coming towards being the right partner for Felicity, but being killed by Ra's has caused regression.

 

I believe what, Oliver thought of before as romantic love, with Laurel/Sara/Shado, is different to what he feels for Felicity which is true romantic love. As @Angel12d posted the foundations of Oliver's love for Felicity is "based on loyalty and trust and a solid friendship" and I think he does't feel like he is worthy of it or that he deserves it. I'm not sure if he think Felicity is with Ray but I don't think he knows how Felicity feels about him. I don't think he was, or is, expecting something in return from her.

 

Finally I think Oliver is so scared of loosing Thea, and half afraid that he already has, so he is making some irrational decisions which, looking back on 2B is consistent for Oliver.

[dtissagirl]

I think Oliver also equals love with protection, which makes complete sense when your parents are Robert and Moira Queen, who went to unthinkable ends to protect their kids.

The difference is I think Oliver turns paternalistic because he insists on protecting Thea and Felicity from himself. All the lies he tells Thea, all the closing off he throws at Felicity, is related to that. I figure it's a mix of traumatized "I don't deserve love/happiness" and "everyone I love is in danger/dies" sort of issues.

I see the plot contrivances, but I get it. It's in character for Oliver, just as it is in character for Felicity to balk at his patronizing ways. Thea would be fighting it way more if only she KNEW half of the crap going on.

Edited February 9, 2015 by dancingnancy

[tv echo]

More on the red color...

laurenkmyers asked:
I think the phrase 'It was red' makes me go more mushy inside than than the actual 'I love you' scene. What made you decide to make Oliver remember that small, but so significant moment?

Honestly, it was something that just came to me while I was working on that scene.  I wish I could explain it better than that, but it was really just one of those “pure inspiration” moments.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited February 9, 2015 by tv echo

[dcinmb]

I believe what, Oliver thought of before as romantic love, with Laurel/Sara/Shado, is different to what he feels for Felicity which is true romantic love. As @Angel12d posted the foundations of Oliver's love for Felicity is "based on loyalty and trust and a solid friendship" and I think he does't feel like he is worthy of it or that he deserves it. I'm not sure if he think Felicity is with Ray but I don't think he knows how Felicity feels about him. I don't think he was, or is, expecting something in return from her.

 

I think that until recently, Oliver did know how Felicity felt about him. In Season One, it was clear to everyone, including Oliver, that Felicity had a crush on him. And by S2E6, Oliver had an inkling that Felicity's feelings may have deepened, hence the guilt over Isabel and the "Someone I could really care about" speech. By S3E1, after months of adorable flirting and bonding that we didn't get to see, he knew that she had feelings for him but that confidence began to erode as soon as he pushed her away. I think he was surprised at how resolutely she stuck to her "I told you as soon as we talked, it would be over" edict and he didn't quite know how to handle this "new" Felicity who declared that she wasn't going to sit around the foundry waiting for him to die, took a job with Ray Palmer, and refused to acknowledge his "and you know how I feel about her" overture. And one would think that after he saw her kissing Ray, he'd have every reason to think she was moving on. But in Uprising, his determination to reduce Felicity's outrage and disillusionment to being about nothing more than their relationship ("That's not why you're upset" and "Things between us, you mean") implies that he inexplicably didn't see Ray as much of a threat at all. Now that Felicity's set him straight and he finally realizes that he could lose her for good, I'm looking forward to watching him remove his head from his ass and start prioritizing Felicity, having to work for her love for a change.

 

And I never thought I'd say this but I'm starting to think that a relationship with Ray might be good for Felicity. She deserves to be loved unequivocally and unconditionally by someone who places her first. It's unfortunate that the writers have been so tone deaf wrt Ray's character development (or lack thereof), but Felicity could do worse than to be loved by a kind, intelligent, altruistic, handsome billionaire who respects and admires her, and unlike her father, Cooper and Oliver, is not going to abandon her. (I'm choosing to forget about Ray's stalkery tendencies; Felicity's obviously moved past it so I can too.) It sucks for Ray that he's destined to be no more than a speed bump on Felicity and Oliver's rocky road to true love (until he moseys on off to his spin-off), but such is the life of a plot device.

 

ETA: "start prioritizing Felicity" in italics above

Edited February 9, 2015 by dcinmb

[kismet]

More on the red color...

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Maybe he was listening to a little Taylor Swift. Every time I head that line her song "red" gets caught in my head for a bit. Gotta agree it was more gushingly romantic than the ILY scene - but that had a lot to do with SA and the fact that OQ was actually happy in a scene so his emotions were raw. I think it was cool that they got the inspiration to have him say the pen was red. It seemed realistic that he would remember something that random in the moment months/years later. Your mind just grasps onto the smallest of details sometimes, its so bizarre & fascinating at the same time.

[blixie]

 

have to work for her love for a change.

 

I honestly do not expect him to have to "work" for it at all. I anticipate Felicity will just change her mind and realize she judged him too harshly, and Ray's a mess and how could she ever have doubted! This whole season should have been him working for it, at this rate his "working for it" will constitute five minutes of screen time, and Felicity will embrace him as a changed man like it was a swtich that was flipped because the episodes number was in the 20's.

[tv echo]

Moved to Media thread.

Edited February 9, 2015 by tv echo

[Carrie Ann]

I honestly do not expect him to have to "work" for it at all. I anticipate Felicity will just change her mind and realize she judged him too harshly, and Ray's a mess and how could she ever have doubted! This whole season should have been him working for it, at this rate his "working for it" will constitute five minutes of screen time, and Felicity will embrace him as a changed man like it was a swtich that was flipped because the episodes number was in the 20's.

 

At this point, as much as I dread Ray and Felicity actually being together, and as sick as I already am of the Olicity discord, I actually wish they wouldn't get together this season. Because while I might disagree with the specifics here, I'm basically positive that this will be right, generally.

There's no way to even begin the "circling back to each other" portion of events until Episode 19 (18, maybe, if it's Felicity in the hospital, but that would probably just be the epiphany moment, no action).

So my guess is we would have, at best, four or five episodes with Oliver and Felicity mending fences and then actually getting together (probably in the penultimate ep, if not the finale). And then we'll skip five months of their relationship, and they'll probably just break up in 401 again, at this rate.

 

Also, an important distinction for me: while I think Oliver has work to do to get back to being a whole person, I don't actually want to see him working to get Felicity. I've said this before, but I hate that dynamic. Oliver hasn't done much specifically wrong to Felicity. He's done and said things that have scared, frustrated, and disappointed her, and he's made decisions that mean they aren't together, but those aren't wrongs he's committed against her for which he must atone before receiving her grace again.

 

Now he's doing this Malcolm thing, and yeah, it's a bad decision and it's changing Felicity's view of who he is. So realizing that error--and the basic fundamental problem underneath it--that is something I'd like to see him "work for." But not for her sake, and not so she can nod approvingly and tell him when he's mopped the floor to her liking. I'm not saying anyone here is asking for that either, but it's a common sentiment in fandom, and especially after a season of Felicity having to be the angry one walking off in a huff while Oliver looks sad or tired, the last thing I want is for their relationship to begin with that kind of dynamic. That is not what I want to see for them.

 

In my dream world, Oliver sees her with Ray and internalizes that as having already lost her. I want him to start reclaiming a life for himself because he realizes he deserved it all along. So he starts trying to rebuild QC. He lets Thea or Laurel or whomever fight their own battles. He works on his other relationships. And in the meantime, the new relationship glow starts to dim and Felicity starts to doubt that there's enough there with Ray, realizes that she's in love with someone else, etc.

 

What I used to love about O/F was how much they admired and respected each other, the instinctive way they took care of each other, the way they brought out the best in each other. If you set up the dynamic to be that Felicity is already perfect and Oliver is the only one who needs to get his shit together until she approves, then you create a power imbalance. And it also does a disservice to Felicity's character, who has issues and flaws and deserves to have those explored too, and do some growing of her own (and not only in the "look at how many superheroes she commands now!" vein).

[Password]

Yes.

[blixie]

 

. He's done and said things that have scared, frustrated, and disappointed her, and he's made decisions that mean they aren't together, but those aren't wrongs he's committed against her

 

 

We will have to disagree here, his repeatedly telling he loves her, and "dangling maybes" is emotionally fucking with her specifically, it's dick move and he needs to STAHP. He's done it four times since the finale of S2, put a cork in your feels until you can emotionally cope with the fall out of expressing your feels Oliver.

 

My issue with Olicity is that I already though it was portrayed in in unbalanced, unequal fashion, Felicity's obvious appreciation for and feelings for Oliver have been called out and she was treated in text as the nerd pining for the hottie far too often for my liking, especially when I think he was for most of S2 far more in love with her than she is with him. But my big problem is if you ARE in love with her prove it, stop flapping your gums, twinkling your eyes while you lament you complete inability to commit to the woman you claim to love. 

 

Having said that of course I want Oliver to evolve and learn for his own sake rather than because he's trying to "win" Felicity, my issue has always been that not only does he not get to grow, they actively REGRESS the man merely to delay having him pursue Felicity unambiguously, and they do it via these ridiculous story contortions: the bomb in The Calm, Sara's murder by Thea/Malcolm, his death on the mountain, his allying with Malcolm despite everything we have ever seen ever on this show. Of course in the mean time Felicity has Ray, doing all of the Oliver things w/o the bullshit die alone I'm not ready to LOOOVE stuff, it's not a fair comparison but they are pulling it out of their ass anyway.

I definitely want Felicity to verbalize her own feelings and "work" for him, because it's just as unfair to Oliver to NOT say what she feels as it is for Oliver to say it and not back it up.I guess I just felt like there was a way to move these two forward as relationship of equals and instead they just set of a bunch of contrived plot bombs to keep them not communicating with one another (then again no one on this show in S3 is communicating with each other because if they just shared information with all relevant parties Guggenheim wouldn't have any story to tell). When Roy is the character best verbalizing his thoughts and feelings, HOUSTON, we have a problem!

[statsgirl]

Full disclosure, I don't get the "Oliver thinks he can be only the Arrow and not Oliver Queen" the EPs are plugging this season.  In terms of relationships, except for Felicity,  he's been more Oliver Queen than he has been through the whole show, trying to connect with Thea and hugging both Diggle and Roy.  Now apparently he's come back from the mountain just the Arrow, which to me means coming back stupid because it doesn't take being Oliver Queen to figure out that joining forces with Merlyn is a bad idea; a trained fighter like the Arrow, the guy who told Felicity that everyone was either a target or someone not to be trusted, should have figured out that Merlyn is not to be trusted.  The sob story he told over Brick's body that this Green Hooded One bought into, was something that would to appeal to the kind hearted Oliver Queen, not the heartless Arrow.

 

Ahem.

 

 

 

I think Oliver does know that what he feels for Felicity is different than what he'd called love before.  She has his trust.  They were friends and partners long before he realized he was in love but I think it if fair to say that he doesn't know how to express love or how to put faith in it.

 

  I think it goes beyond his feelings for Felicity,  although I agree that it's different than he's felt before. There's similarities with Thea and Diggle this season too.

 

It started when he benched Diggle in the season opener.  He did it to protect Diggle, who had Lyla and was about to have a baby. Oliver loves Diggle and he showed that love by deciding for Diggle that he wasn't going to be out in the field any more.  Over Diggle's objections, 'My crusade and I make the decisions'.  (It didn't help that Diggle later said that Oliver was right to do it. Grrrr)

 

Then there's Thea.  When Thea tells him that she wants to be close to Malcolm because he's the only other family she has left (sorry about that, Walter, those four or five years don't count), Oliver goes along with it.  BUT even when he learns that Malcolm brainwashed her into killing Sara, he still doesn't tell her what happened.  A smart person would think "I need to tell her so she can protect herself from it happening next time" or at least "I need to tell her so she can make her own decisions" but no, Oliver goes off to sacrifice himself for her.  Even when he comes back, he's still lying to her about the enormity of what Malcolm has done to them.  (Maybe it's a Queen trait because Thea didn't seem particularly upset to hear he'd been in jail in Bludhaven for a month, or even enough to ask what he'd done.)

 

And he's doing the same thing with Felicity only more so.  Oliver loves her, he believes he does, but loving her means making all the decisions for them, taking away her autonomy as he did for Diggle and Thea.  When Felicity said "I don't want to be a woman you love", it was about how he was treating her in their relationship. But there's also a bigger statement in that Oliver's love is a les-than-desirable love, not in terms of the feels because he's got the feels all there, but in terms of how he interacts with the person he loves and how he controls to the extent of hurting his loved one.

 

It will be interesting to see the extent to which he reacts to having Laurel on the Team. This is a woman he used to love but I don't think he does any more except that he cares about her.  Will he fight her as hard as he's fighting Felicity, or will he bow more easily to the inevitable?

[SmallScreenDiva]

It will be interesting to see the extent to which he reacts to having Laurel on the Team. This is a woman he used to love but I don't think he does any more except that he cares about her.  Will he fight her as hard as he's fighting Felicity, or will he bow more easily to the inevitable?

 

He will fight, but probably give in more easily and I have a feeling it has less to do with the affection he has for her and more with the show trying to solidify her position as BC. They can't have Oliver too strenuously disagreeing with her. Inevitable, yeah, that's a good word to describe Laurel's rise to BC. God, that's depressing.

[Carrie Ann]

We will have to disagree here, his repeatedly telling he loves her, and "dangling maybes" is emotionally fucking with her specifically, it's dick move and he needs to STAHP. He's done it four times since the finale of S2, put a cork in your feels until you can emotionally cope with the fall out of expressing your feels Oliver.

 

My issue with Olicity is that I already though it was portrayed in in unbalanced, unequal fashion, Felicity's obvious appreciation for and feelings for Oliver have been called out and she was treated in text as the nerd pining for the hottie far too often for my liking, especially when I think he was for most of S2 far more in love with her than she is with him. But my big problem is if you ARE in love with her prove it, stop flapping your gums, twinkling your eyes while you lament you complete inability to commit to the woman you claim to love.

[...]

 

I definitely want Felicity to verbalize her own feelings and "work" for him, because it's just as unfair to Oliver to NOT say what she feels as it is for Oliver to say it and not back it up. I guess I just felt like there was a way to move these two forward as relationship of equals and instead they just set of a bunch of contrived plot bombs to keep them not communicating with one another.

 

I think we actually do agree here--in my other post, I took out a few examples of the places I thought Oliver did do things wrong to Felicity, and the not-quite-declarations-of-love were the biggest (the other thing was his coldness to her from 302-304, but there were mitigating circumstances). Mistakes were made, but the only thing that would make up for those is for him to grow and change his mind, and if she gives him another chance, make sure he never pulls that shit again. I don't see a lot of "work" that can be done in advance, especially if they get together pre-finale. So I'd rather they not even bother acting like he has to do work to earn Felicity back. He would need to change his mind, and express that (and have it reflected in some choices) and then she's going to have to take a risk with her heart.*

 

Otherwise, this is another reason I'd be cool with them not being together at the end of season. Instead, they could end with us being aware that he's putting the pieces of his real life back together, and having a hint that Felicity is noticing. And then we go to hiatus with them friendly again. Then we can see the tentative steps back toward each other in S4. So we have an understanding that him just living his life differently over an extended period of time is what Felicity needs to trust him again.

 

*I don't blame Felicity at all for not expressing her feelings this season--but yeah, the show basically took the imbalance of S1/2 and reversed or completely eliminated it. I wanted the imbalance addressed, in fact I'm sure I made posts in this thread from the summer to that effect, but not like this. And yeah, I do personally feel that holding all her feelings inside is the safer choice. It's her last measure of control, and I don't blame her for holding onto it with all her might. But I'd prefer it if they both have to take a leap to be together. It's more satisfying for me as a viewer, and like I said before, more interesting to examine that part of Felicity herself.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[dcinmb]

Oliver loves [Felicity], he believes he does, but loving her means making all the decisions for them, taking away her autonomy as he did for Diggle and Thea.  When Felicity said "I don't want to be a woman you love", it was about how he was treating her in their relationship. But there's also a bigger statement in that Oliver's love is a les-than-desirable love, not in terms of the feels because he's got the feels all there, but in terms of how he interacts with the person he loves and how he controls to the extent of hurting his loved one.

 

While the way he treats/interacts with/controls his loved ones is certainly a part of it, I think there's a lot more to it. Oliver's decision to align with Malcolm has shaken Felicity's faith in him as she believes he is compromising his principles and everything he's ever stood for. She's been longing for the love of the man she thought he was, not the man he's now become.

 

It looks like she's going to continue with Team Arrow but she's probably going to start questioning whether she's fighting for his beliefs or her own. Not that she hasn't always done that but I have a feeling there's going to be a lot more dissension than ever before.

[quarks]

Since the idea that a return to Oliver/Laurel is inevitable because comics, Guggenheim, whatever, keeps coming up. I figured I'd try to do a comprehensive post on this. 

 

Let me start by saying I get this fear: I really do. This show just had its "I'm trying to be a hero" protagonist announce that he'll be working with a mass murderer.  Who knows what it's going to try next?  But although I won't rule out a later Laurel/Oliver hookup, I find it incredibly unlikely, not just for this season, but future seasons.

 

If you don't believe me or Stephen Amell, go look at the ratings, and see what happens to this show almost every time the show hints that Oliver/Laurel are going to be getting together romantically again.  Ratings drop in the next episode. The main exception is "Darkness at the Edge of Town," which also had Felicity's "very platonic circumstances" comment, suggesting that the show might actually go there. Or what happens almost every time Oliver/Laurel break up/call things off: ratings go up in the next episode. The exception is "Time of Death," where ratings did fall for the next episode.  

 

The pattern is not quite as strong with Oliver/Felicity, one reason I'm also unwilling to say that they'll be the final endgame couple (although I'm mostly unwilling to say that because I don't know how long this show will last and how long EBR will want to stay on it.) Still, generally speaking, when the show hints that Oliver/Felicity might be getting together, ratings go up for the next episode (for instance, "Unthinkable" to "The Calm"); when the show hints that they might not be getting together, ratings drop for the next episode. And it's remarkable that for the first time in the history of the show the ratings stayed steady post the winter hiatus - after an episode where Oliver said "I love you" to Felicity.

 

Based just on that, I don't think the show will risk hooking up Oliver/Laurel again until/unless Laurel becomes a lot more popular. And the jury's still out on that one. True, she seems to have been doing somewhat better with fans over the last few episodes, and the ratings for this Laurel arc have been fine, but the keyword here is "somewhat." She's still far from being rehabilitated, or a fan favorite. The one episode in her own arc where she did have more screentime - "Midnight City" - earned the lowest ratings/total viewers of this arc so far, and the lowest Twitter numbers. Reviewers have not been enthusiastic. Even our pro-Laurel friends over on IMDB seem to have doubts:

 

Left Behind: 8.8  (Felicity/Diggle focus)

 

Midnight City: 8.4 (Laurel focus)

 

Uprising: 8.9 (Malcolm focus, with Roy coming in 2nd)

 

The most Laurel-focused episode of this arc so far was also the least liked episode of this arc so far - on the pro-Laurel site.  This matches the earlier part of the season, where IMDB's three favorite episodes (The Calm, The Brave and the Bold, and The Climb) barely had Laurel. (Though, to be fair, one of IMDB's least favorite episodes of the season so far [Draw Back Your Bow] didn't have Laurel at all.)  It also matches earlier seasons, where Laurel-focused episodes have continuously gotten lower ratings from IMDB.

 

Also, even with fans/critics seeming to agree that, barring a few outstanding episodes, this season of Arrow is weaker than previous seasons, ratings in general are up from season two, . Much of this, of course, has to do with Flash and the crossovers, not who Oliver wants to bang, but still: ratings are up for the season where Felicity, not Laurel, is the main love interest.  

 

Beyond ratings, IMDB ratings, and reviews, there's internet polls, YouTube numbers (some of the Laurel/Oliver clips have high numbers; most don't) and things of that sort. Most of that has nothing to do with the bottom line of the show (although in about six months Arrow will be getting a tiny bit of revenue from those YouTube clips, and I do mean tiny), but they are further indications for network executives.

 

Within the show, there's the other indications: the fact that although Katie Cassidy is still listed behind Amell in the credits, she's still behind Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and even Roy for screentime; the fact that the show very carefully marginalized her and left her out of the big crossover episode of the season; the fact that when Oliver took off to fight Ra's, he said goodbye to Thea, Diggle, Roy and Felicity - but not Laurel, and that when he returned, he said hello to Thea, Diggle, Roy, Felicity and even Malcolm but not Laurel. Chew on that for a second: this show thought it was more important to give Oliver and Malcolm a reunion scene than to have Oliver and Laurel exchange a single word.  Instead, the show carefully manufactured a reason to keep Laurel out of the Arrow Cave when Oliver returned, so the focus could be on Oliver and Felicity.

 

Could the show go back to Laurel/Oliver? Absolutely - as I said, I don't want to rule out anything for this show. But right now, the signs are not pointing in that direction.

And here are the numbers:

 

An Innocent Man - 3.05. Ends with Laurel announcing that the Hood is a killer and that she'll be avoiding him. Total viewers jump to 3.75 for the next episode.

 

Damaged - 3.75. Laurel/Oliver make out, but Laurel walks away, saying that this can never happen. Total viewers jump up to 3.83 for the next episode.

 

Burned - 3.06.  Oliver urges Laurel to work things out with Tommy and let him have the drawer.  Total viewers creep up to 3.14.

 

Betrayal - 2.96.  Oliver, as the Hood, says he won't work with Laurel again. Total viewers leap up to 3.29.

 

Home Invasion - 3.10. Tommy breaks up with Laurel because he thinks she's still in love with Oliver.  Total viewers drop to 2.89.

 

The Undertaking - 2.89.  Oliver says he can't tell Tommy that he's not still in love with Laurel, because it would be a lie. Total viewers drop to 2.62.

 

Darkness at the Edge of Town - 2.62. Oliver and Laurel sleep together. In a break in this pattern, total viewers go up to 2.77 - but this is also Felicity and Oliver's "very platonic circumstances" episode.

 

Sacrifice - 2.77.  Oliver says that Laurel has always known the real him, and once this is done, they can be together. Total viewers slip very slightly to 2.74.

 

City of Heroes - 2.74.  Laurel and Oliver break up. Total viewers go up to 3.06.

 

League of Assassins - 2.80.  Oliver turns Laurel down in the hallway. Total viewers go up to 3.09.

 

Keep Your Enemies Closer - 3.09; Oliver admits that he could really care about Felicity, but because of the life he leads, he won't. Total viewers drop to 2.66.

 

(Technically, the jump between State vs. Queen, 2.66, where Oliver kills to save Felicity, to The Scientist, 3.24, fits this pattern, but it seems from other evidence that the ratings for The Scientist had nothing to do with Oliver and Felicity and everything to do with Barry Allen, so I have to discard this.)

 

The Scientist - 3.24. Barry and Felicity are clearly attracted to each other. There's something there! Viewers slip to 3.02.

 

First major outlier:  Three Ghosts, 3.02. Oliver/Felicity hug.  Viewers drop to 2.52 - the beginning of the promoted Laurel arc, also, after the reveal of Slade as the Big Bad and the show officially adding superpowers.

 

Blast Radius, 2.52, Oliver and Felicity have their "partner" moment: viewers slip to 2.49.

 

Blind Spot, 2.49. Oliver admits that Laurel has been his blind spot, and won't be in the future. Viewers leap to 2.95, the high point for season 2B.

 

Heir to the Demon, 2.86. Oliver sleeps with Sara, blocking Oliver/Felicity. Viewers drop to 2.45.

 

Second outlier: Time of Death, 2.45. Oliver walks off from Laurel and has the "you'll always be my girl" moment with Felicity; continues to sleep with Sara. Viewers drop to 2.21.

 

Deathstroke, 2.32. Laurel finds out Oliver's secret. Viewers slip to 2.26.

 

Man Under the Hood, 2.26.  Laurel decides not to tell anyone about Oliver's secret and hugs Oliver. Viewers slip to 2.19, the series low.

 

Seeing Red, 2.19. Sara breaks up with Oliver; Laurel does not join Team Arrow. Viewers rise to 2.31.

 

Streets of Fire, 2.33, Oliver/Felicity clocktower scene; viewers creep up to 2.37.

 

Unthinkable, 2.37. "He picked the wrong woman." Viewers jump up to 2.83 – a change from the previous season, where ratings fell slightly over the summer.

 

Technically, "The Calm" also fits this pattern: viewers started at 2.83. Oliver and Felicity broke up. Viewers fell to 2.32.  But like with "The Scientist" above, in this particular case I don't think the ratings fall had anything to do with Oliver and Felicity, but rather with Sara's death and the correct assumption that the next episode, "Sara," was going to be very depressing.

 

Third outlier: Draw Back Your Bow, 2.64.  Oliver says yet again that he can't be with Felicity; Felicity kisses Ray.  Viewers leap up to 3.92 – for the heavily promoted Flash crossover.

 

The Climb, 3.06. Oliver says "I love you," to Felicity. Viewers stay steady, even with a hiatus, at 3.06.

 

As I've said elsewhere, ratings for one episode are meaningless, especially for episodes like "Crucible" and "Magician" which aired against the World Series.  And quite a few of these jumps/falls can be attributed to other factors. But a pattern does mean something, and the pattern here, if not exactly all that strong for Oliver/Felicity, is not in favor of Oliver/Laurel.

 

Could this change? Sure – as early as next episode, which follows Felicity walking away from Oliver, but

has a plot development many fans have wanted for two seasons now – Thea finally learning the truth, and also has the return of Sara, who was admittedly absent or only in flashbacks for the three top rated episodes of Season Two, but has at least three episodes indicating her general popularity (League of Assassins, Heir to the Demon, Birds of Prey) even if viewers seemed less happy with having her on Team Arrow/with Oliver. 

The episode after that, as I've said elsewhere, is even harder to predict, based on previous seasons. But again, what's important is the pattern, not occasional outliers.

 

I'll end this by saying that I would like to believe that the main goal of the showrunners is to produce quality entertainment and to follow their creative visions. I really would. But I think the main focus here is money. And that's not Oliver/Laurel this season.

 

And I think that's enough numbers for everyone for now, even me.

[Angel12d]

It's pretty sad that the only reason a lot of people are worried/convinced the show might return to O/L is because of the comics. There's absolutely nothing on this show presently that even remotely hints that there's still love between them and this is without taking into account the build up with Olicity. If anything, Lauriver is only becoming more toxic. I mean, the guy just agreed to work with the man who killed Laurel's sister, and that's on top of everything bad already between them. Yikes. Not a pairing I'd root for, personally. To each their own, I guess. 

 

That said, I'm not ruling out O/L in the future because this show could go on for seasons (I really hope not, I'm already tired of it) and they like to create unnecessary drama, but you can't create romantic chemistry out of thin air and you can't dismiss their toxic backstory or the fact that Oliver had a relationship with Sara. And this is before we look at what's happening between O/F, and how Felicity has been tied to Oliver's humanity. The steps to O/L just don't add up. 

[statsgirl]

Guggenheim seems to love it when Oliver is being a dumbass, he even said on tumblr that they get a lot of mileage out of that.  So I wouldn't be surprised if there is a short-term Oliver/Laurel hook-up where it's clearly shown that Oliver is in the wrong to do it.  They might even do it for Felicity angst since that seems to be a theme this season.  But I'd be shocked if they were going to do an O/L hook-up seriously as they did Oliver/Sara.

 

 

It looks like she's going to continue with Team Arrow but she's probably going to start questioning whether she's fighting for his beliefs or her own. Not that she hasn't always done that but I have a feeling there's going to be a lot more dissension than ever before.

I agree, and it could be really good to see her examine why she's on the Team because up to now, it was because she believed in Oliver the person.  She's going to have to reassess that since he showed up not the person she thought he was.   In one of the movie pilot reviews of Uprising 

 

He wants love, he wants to love Felicity but is his desire to fight crime more than his desire for a normal life. It's easy to see that he does not lead a "normal" life. His life needs someone who understands his desire to fight injustice. Felicity, as great as a character as she is, she does not get it. She never will. I get that. She is not his match in that regard. Sara was. They killed her off because she was The Canary but wasn't supposed to be. She got Oliver. She understood him, what drove him.

Having Felicity step aside from following Oliver and decide for herself what she wants won't make her into the kind of partner Sara was and Diggle is but it can help to address this problem.

Edited February 9, 2015 by statsgirl

[CabotCove]

Having said that of course I want Oliver to evolve and learn for his own sake rather than because he's trying to "win" Felicity, my issue has always been that not only does he not get to grow, they actively REGRESS the man merely to delay having him pursue Felicity unambiguously, and they do it via these ridiculous story contortions: the bomb in The Calm, Sara's murder by Thea/Malcolm, his death on the mountain, his allying with Malcolm despite everything we have ever seen ever on this show.

 

 

Thats it! thats one of my big problems with Olicity (though I understand Sara's murder and the bomb in calm as obstacles). They are certainly regressing Oliver for Olicity alright, and this is supposed to be the healthy ship and option for Oliver? rhetorical question. Its so bad when they have to change (negatively too) characters for a ship. From what I hear, one of the major selling point for Olicity is that she (or rather her involvement with him) moves him forward and makes him a better person, if that is now doing the reverse maybe its time for someone new for him.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Conell

[Morrigan2575]

He wants love, he wants to love Felicity but is his desire to fight crime more than his desire for a normal life. It's easy to see that he does not lead a "normal" life. His life needs someone who understands his desire to fight injustice. Felicity, as great as a character as she is, she does not get it. She never will. I get that. She is not his match in that regard. Sara was. They killed her off because she was The Canary but wasn't supposed to be. She got Oliver. She understood him, what drove him.

 

This seems almost wrong to me.  Yes, absolutely Sara understood who Oliver was and where he came from, she knew pre-Island Oliver and Island Oliver and through very shared experiences understood The Hood.  However, I think the show went out of it's way to show that Sara didn't understand The Arrow or who/what Oliver was trying to become.  If anything it seemed that Sara was S1Oliver/Hood and the point was to have S2Oliver/Arrow show Sara that she could be more than a killer.  

 

I actually think SA got it right at both SDCC 2014 and TCAs, Laurel and Sara were the past they knew who Oliver was but they weren't part of his future because he was evolving beyond pre-island, island and Hood to eventually become Green Arrow.  If anything, the split between Oliver/Felicity at the end of 312, should be more about Oliver moving towards Felicity's sense of morality.  Unless SA's comments about Felciity laying a Truth Bomb down at the end of 312 was totally wrong and the audience is really supposed to believe that Oliver making friends with the guy that mind raped his sister, turned her into a killer, and used her as a weapon to save his own pathetic ass is somehow a good idea and that MM is really just a good guy.

[Password]

That's strange, I thought the whole point of that farcical Sara-Oliver arc was to show how Sara DOESN'T understand Oliver and who's he's become. It's why this regression IMO is so sad. Felicity thought she understood Oliver and his cause but he's returned and shattered what even we as an audience believed.

And I really don't think Diggle and Sara shared much in common other than fighting skills. Diggle desires justice, but even he agreed the ends do not justify the means.

Can you maybe expand on that last quote? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

[lemotomato]

They aren't regressing Oliver for the 'ship, though. They're regressing him to DELAY the 'ship because the showrunners are convinced they can't have the main couple in a stable relationship this early in a show's run.

[looptab]

You see, I really don't understand all this people saying how Felicity doesn't get Oliver or the life he leads, how she can't ever accept it, how she sees in black and white. How she believed that he would give up being the Arrow when he'd return. Seriously? Have they been watching the same show I have?

 

Felicity knows all about this life. She's been a part of it for two years. She knows the Arrow is a big part of Oliver and it's IMO a big factor in her feelings for him. She just doesn't want that part of his life to obliterate everything else. If she had thought he would stop going around in the hood, she would have said so. No, she just said she thought he'd do things differently. Damn, she was the one telling Cisco to keep the hood in the suit, if that's not symbolism I don't know what is. (Although that could very much have been unintentional). 

 

When was it ever even hinted at that she wants him to stop being the Arrow? All I've seen is she believes that life doesn't end with the mission,

 

And don't let me started on the black and white, really. SMH

[apinknightmare]

They aren't regressing Oliver for the 'ship, though. They're regressing him to DELAY the 'ship because the showrunners are convinced they can't have the main couple in a stable relationship this early in a show's run.

 

I'm of the opinion that they make Oliver a dumbass whenever it suits them for plot, whatever it is, Olicity or otherwise.

[statsgirl]

They aren't regressing Oliver for the 'ship, though. They're regressing him to DELAY the 'ship because the showrunners are convinced they can't have the main couple in a stable relationship this early in a show's run.

I think they're regressing Oliver for plot reasons (I still think MM will turn out the be bad) and to keep him from becoming the Green Arrow for another 2 1/2 seasons.  It does serve to delay the ship though, and does it in a logical way that makes Oliver look bad but not Felicity so I'm good with that.

 

You see, I really don't understand all this people saying how Felicity doesn't get Oliver or the life he leads, how she can't ever accept it, how she sees in black and white. How she believed that he would give up being the Arrow when he'd return. Seriously? Have they been watching the same show I have?

 

Felicity knows all about this life. She's been a part of it for two years. She knows the Arrow is a big part of Oliver and it's IMO a big factor in her feelings for him. She just doesn't want that part of his life to obliterate everything else. If she had thought he would stop going around in the hood, she would have said so. No, she just said she thought he'd do things differently. Damn, she was the one telling Cisco to keep the hood in the suit, if that's not symbolism I don't know what is. (Although that could very much have been unintentional).

I can see his point though.  Felicity in on board with the crusade but she's doing it because cognitively she knows it's the right thing. She hasn't lived it like Sara has, the desire to keep a woman from being hurt by a man again.

 

On the other hand, Laurel doesn't get it either and she's become the Black Canary.  But he wasn't arguing that Laurel should be Oliver's love interest, thank goodness.  He does want Helena to come back though, I think because she could understand that side of Oliver.

 

I disagree with him that Oliver's soulmate should be someone who understands the darkness in the same way he does. As Sara said (sob, RIP), that Oliver needs someone who can harness the light that is still inside him, and later that they are not their masks and they need people in their lives who don't wear them.  That argues that Oliver needs someone who can bring him to the light, not who matches the darkness inside him.

[CabotCove]

They aren't regressing Oliver for the 'ship, though. They're regressing him to DELAY the 'ship because the showrunners are convinced they can't have the main couple in a stable relationship this early in a show's run.

 

Right, because of the so called, "moonlight curse", I get that. I just think that with Olicity they should be able to overcome this fear of a moonlight curse. They have professed the ship as the main, right and healthy one for Oliver. They has to be a difference in the way they handle them from the other Oliver ships and how it affects the two characters in the ship especially Oliver, otherwise whats the point.  Felicity/Olicity was supposed to be a different and new thing for Oliver , I want them to show me that.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Conell

[statsgirl]

It's healthier than any of his previous ships.  Felicity isn't ignoring the things that Oliver does that she doesn't like, like Laurel did. She's not a psychotic killer like Helena and Isabel, or too broken to value herself like Sara, and he can show her all sides of himself unlike with McKenna.

 

The problem is in Oliver. He's only partially healed, only somewhat matured, and until he gets all the way there, there are going to be problems with his relationship with Felicity.  Unlike a movie, where everything is tidily wrapped up in 90 minutes, they've got 5+ years to tell the Oliver's story and until he gets healthy himself, there are going to be problems for the Olicity ship.

[NumberCruncher]

Right, because of the so called, "moonlight curse", I get that. I just think that with Olicity they should be able to overcome this fear of a moonlight curse. They have professed the ship as the main, right and healthy one for Oliver. They has to be a difference in the way they handle them from the other Oliver ships and how it affects the two characters in the ship especially Oliver, otherwise whats the point.  Felicity/Olicity was supposed to be a different and new thing for Oliver , I want them to show me that.

The problem is that these EPs and writers don't know how. MG just reinforced that they love making Oliver look like a complete dumbass because "DRAMA!". It doesn't matter if they did break Olicity apart and pair him with another woman--they would still create a bunch of relationship angst and character regression because that's what they do. If we actually had writers who were capable of writing good romance I think we would be in a much different place.

[dtissagirl]

They've already set up future 'ship stalling tactics with the Baby Mama and Surprise!Kid, that's how terrified they are of writing Oliver in a healthy grown up no-drama relationship.

I almost feel bad for the EPs. I mean, they set out to tell a completely different romance storyline, and it blew up in their faces so hard they're still dealing with it two and a half years later. But they seem dead set in "star-crossed lovers" mode, even after it failed with Laurel, but they're sure trying it again with Felicity because reasons. So they get no sympathy from me.

[Chiny11]

I still can't believe the actors (SA/KC) were not screen tested.

I mean if your plan was to write this "awesome star-crossed lovers" story, won't screen testing the actors be top on the list of priorities.

It just boggles my mind.

[calliope1975]

They aren't regressing Oliver for the 'ship, though. They're regressing him to DELAY the 'ship because the showrunners are convinced they can't have the main couple in a stable relationship this early in a show's run.

 

Yep. It doesn't matter what woman is his love interest - Laurel, Baby Mama, Starfire, Supergirl, etc. These writers don't want Oliver to be happy, and until that changes, or they become better writers, we'll get the same stupid plot points that don't make sense and don't allow Oliver to grow. At this point, I don't doubt Olicity will get together in the season finale, we'll miss all of their relationship, and then some other lame stall will pop up 45 minutes into 4.01. 

[jay741982]

Yep. It doesn't matter what woman is his love interest - Laurel, Baby Mama, Starfire, Supergirl, etc. These writers don't want Oliver to be happy, and until that changes, or they become better writers, we'll get the same stupid plot points that don't make sense and don't allow Oliver to grow. At this point, I don't doubt Olicity will get together in the season finale, we'll miss all of their relationship, and then some other lame stall will pop up 45 minutes into 4.01.

And if they were enough people who complained to them they might not keep coming up with this Angst and show Olicters some good happy sexy times before more stupid angst

[tennisgurl]

Its like they decided that DC Comics whole "no hero should have a happy love life EVER" policy should be instituted here too! I get that they want to drag out the "drama", but come on. We know that Oliver and Felicity love each other, they have literally said so. It seems like the writers just don't know how to write a happy Oliver in a happy relationship with Felicity, even though that would open up WAY more new storytelling possibilities than more angst. Felicity and Oliver should not be ANGST ANGST couple, they were never going to be that couple. Thats why fans fell for them in the first place! When will writers learn that, while you don't have to pander to your fans, you should at least be aware of what is working, and why. 

[NumberCruncher]

Its like they decided that DC Comics whole "no hero should have a happy love life EVER" policy should be instituted here too! I get that they want to drag out the "drama", but come on. We know that Oliver and Felicity love each other, they have literally said so. It seems like the writers just don't know how to write a happy Oliver in a happy relationship with Felicity, even though that would open up WAY more new storytelling possibilities than more angst. Felicity and Oliver should not be ANGST ANGST couple, they were never going to be that couple. Thats why fans fell for them in the first place! When will writers learn that, while you don't have to pander to your fans, you should at least be aware of what is working, and why.

This is exactly right. The reason I warmed up to them was because there was a hopeful undercurrent to their relationship that was a much-needed balance to all the darkness going on with the rest of the show. It was different and refreshing. The writers had created a beautiful, real, organic progression from friendship to lovers and proceeded to load it down with a lot of unnecessary bullshit this season. Angst is fine, but it already existed in many different forms on the show through all the death, revenge, and deceit. They didn't need to also drag down something that could have provided a shred of joy to Oliver Queen's sad sack existence.

[statsgirl]

I kind of see why they did it, and that they had to do it now.  They could either let Oliver go straight into a happy relationship or had him have to work at this too.  Ever since the dinner blew up, their relationship has been unhealthy and it's mostly been due to what Oliver's been doing. He's made unilateral decisions that he can't be in a relationship while having sad puppy dog eyes if Felicity doesn't sit around waiting for him to die; he's told her three times he loves her and then walked away, and he won't listen to anything she has to say about them.  Like with Thea, he says he loves her but he's making all the decisions and taking away her autonomy and refusing to acknowledge her intelligence about relationships.

 

So if they want to explore how messed up Oliver is in his love relationships (remember how he thought he could save Helena?  Or follow McKenna out of town?) they have to do it now before Oliver and Felicity get together for realz because after that it will be too late.

 

What I really wish is that they had shown us the flirtiness of the summer and how Oliver and Felicity could work so well together even with being attracted to each other, before they blew it all up.  That would have gone a long way towards showing me that Oliver really does love Felicity and is worth waiting for.  I mean, does Felicity really want a guy who returns from the dead and the first thing he says is "I've thrown all my principles out the window and made a deal with the devil , and I'm not interested in anything you have to say about it"?

Edited February 10, 2015 by statsgirl

[Angel12d]

What I really wish is that they had shown us the flirtiness of the summer and how Oliver and Felicity could work so well together even with being attracted to each other, before they blew it all up.  That would have gone a long way towards showing me that Oliver really does love Felicity and is worth waiting for.  I mean, does Felicity really want a guy who returns from the dead and the first thing he says is "I've thrown all my principles out the window and made a deal with the devil , and I'm not interested in anything you have to say about it"?

 

What's super frustrating is they have kind of shown us how wonderful they could be together in the Arrow/Flash crossovers. They acted so in tune and married and I could totally imagine that's how they were in those missing five months, and how they could be in the future, if the show would let them. The potential was so obvious. What's great is that nothing has to change and the show would still be full on action and drama but Oliver could have a shred of happiness amid the darkness. Sigh.

[BkWurm1]

He wants love, he wants to love Felicity but is his desire to fight crime more than his desire for a normal life. It's easy to see that he does not lead a "normal" life. His life needs someone who understands his desire to fight injustice. Felicity, as great as a character as she is, she does not get it. She never will. I get that. She is not his match in that regard. Sara was. They killed her off because she was The Canary but wasn't supposed to be. She got Oliver. She understood him, what drove him

 

Where this argument falls apart is that Felicity has never asked him to stop being the Arrow.  Nor has she ever asked him to prioritize regular life over what they do.  Felicity has almost no skills to protect herself out in the field and over and over she has shown her desire to fight crime is something she personally believes in every time she willingly puts herself in danger for the good of the mission.  She's the one that dragged Oliver back and orchestrated all the pieces so that he could/would go back to being the Arrow.  She's the one that believed in him and what he was doing even when he lost faith.  Her desire and dedication is as strong as Oliver's.  She thinks he's dead and less than one week later, she is back fighting for her city.  This is her life and it's her choice. 

 

Felicity has been all in when it comes to the mission but she still leaves space for more than just the mission.  She was looking for a place in the life Oliver was currently living and that's what he wouldn't allow for fear that happiness and wanting to have a future would somehow make him sloppy.  This isn't a question of Felicity not understanding, it's been an issue of Oliver not trusting his abilities as Arrow if he is thinking happy and apparently deeply distracting thoughts.  He doesn't trust himself and is IMO making excuses out of fear or a feeling of unworthiness or even maybe a lack of imagination. 

 

You cant' go for 5 years constantly thinking you could die - probably will die - at any moment without that severely curtailing your ability to plan ahead. 

 

What I want from Oliver isn't an admission that he's messed up or that working with Malcolm is a terrible idea (it would be a nice bonus though), I want him to admit he doesn't know what he's doing and that he's scared and doesn't want to die and feels like he's already failed Thea and knows he's been pushing her (Felicity) away but he doesn't know what else to do.  And then I want Felicity not to immediately solve all his problems, but for her to remind him that he doesn't have to have all the answers, he doesn't have to be alone and that they will figure it out together.     

 

No one has to be right or wrong.  They just have to get back to being true to who they are when they are together.  We can work out any pesky details from there. 

[tv echo]

Then there's Thea.  When Thea tells him that she wants to be close to Malcolm because he's the only other family she has left (sorry about that, Walter, those four or five years don't count), Oliver goes along with it. .

The problem with making Thea's attachment to Malcolm based solely on biology is that it's based on a faulty premise - that you can only have a family based on blood.  But the show has already shown that you can build a "family" on other things - Team Arrow, for example.  Also, since the EPs are so enamored of Joss Whedon, they should know that JW loves creating families out of disparate individuals.

 

Thats it! thats one of my big problems with Olicity (though I understand Sara's murder and the bomb in calm as obstacles). They are certainly regressing Oliver for Olicity alright, and this is supposed to be the healthy ship and option for Oliver? rhetorical question. Its so bad when they have to change (negatively too) characters for a ship. From what I hear, one of the major selling point for Olicity is that she (or rather her involvement with him) moves him forward and makes him a better person, if that is now doing the reverse maybe its time for someone new for him.

Felicity did and does move Oliver forward and make him a better person - when he listens to her.  Right now, he's not listening to her or anyone else, he's only listening to himself.

[tennisgurl]

 

The problem with making Thea's attachment to Malcolm based solely on biology is that it's based on a faulty premise - that you can only have a family based on blood.  But the show has already shown that you can build a "family" on other things - Team Arrow, for example.  Also, since the EPs are so enamored of Joss Whedon, they should know that JW loves creating families out of disparate individuals.

Very well said! I really feel like Thea accepting Malcolm as her Father has been horribly handled, and taken what could have been a good story, and made it completely out of character. Yeah, Malcolm did save Thea in the riot, but this is the same Thea who had trouble forgiving her Mother, who is not only her bio parent, but who has raised her her whole life, for her (comparably minor) part in the attack on the Glades, but is willing to forgive the mastermind behind it? Just because he pulled her out of trouble one time? Bullcrap! I get that Thea has abandonment issues, but cant they explore that more? Really get into why a young woman who, while occasionally making poor choices, has always tried to do the right thing, and prove that she could be an intelligent, self-sufficient person, is suddenly cool with living with the Arrow equivalent of a Bond villain?  If she just wanted to learn self-defense, I could maybe buy it, but not the way its been shown. When did genetics become the end all be all of family? Is that really the message they want to get across? As long as they're your blood relative, you have to keep them in your life? Malcolm was an awful father to Tommy, who was ALSO his blood! Lets not forget about that. But since he`s his father, its all forgiven now? Really? 

 

And seriously, where the hell is Walter? You know, Thea`s actual father figure, who is a good person, and was actually there for her? That guy?  

[Luckylyn]

And seriously, where the hell is Walter? You know, Thea`s actual father figure, who is a good person, and was actually there for her? That guy?  

Walter could really add so much and the whole biology vs. adopted family story could have been showcased.   Plus, I would have liked to see Oliver and Walter working together over QC and forging their own bond.  Walter and Felicity seemed to be developing a nice friendship in season 1.  Concern for Walter was the big reason Felicity was willing to work with the Arrow but that friendship was just dropped too.  They established this loving relationship between Walter and Thea in season 1 and seemed to forget about it.   Why they couldn't let Thea simply be using Malcolm to gain some power is something I just don't get.

[AustenChick]

I like Arrow and don't mind how the storytelling is now. I just miss humor. I think they're trying to use Roy in the group dynamic to fill in the gap. But I miss Felicity and Oliver's quipping. It just made things a little lighter. Now, it's just Roy. Kind of.

[BkWurm1]

Except in the crossovers we've seen more hard edged snark from Felicity than her usually quippiness. 

[CabotCove]

Yep. It doesn't matter what woman is his love interest - Laurel, Baby Mama, Starfire, Supergirl, etc. These writers don't want Oliver to be happy, and until that changes, or they become better writers, we'll get the same stupid plot points that don't make sense and don't allow Oliver to grow. At this point, I don't doubt Olicity will get together in the season finale, we'll miss all of their relationship, and then some other lame stall will pop up 45 minutes into 4.01.

 

-

 

I don't deny that the writers can be pretty bad at writing romance in this show, but to me there is just an extra bad way they are handling Olicity because the woman in it is Felicity. Felicity, the fan favorite , the special and pure one, we have to protect her at all cost like an egg. Oliver's regression and incompetence just seems more magnified and exaggerated because of the character he is put opposite to. Just maybe if i the romance was  with another "dark" character or one they don't hold so highly, things might be different. Yes they will still be the same writers but each dynamic is different, just like Olicity is different from Lauriver because they don't have the same baggage, not traditional comic canon etc.  If Oliver was paired with Supergirl just maybe they would spend more time kicking extra terrestrial ass than the I cant be with you because you will get hurt drama nonsense. Hypothetically speaking, of course, supergirl will likely never be in this show. Thea and Roy are in the same show yet they feel more mature and almost drama free when compared to Olicity, why, probably because they dont have the same popularity and expectations as Olicity. Taking into consideration also that they are not the main romance and characters.  Olicity had/s the potential to be a saving grace for Oliver, but because of what they are and if they are handled wrongly, they might just end up doing the reverse. 

 

It's healthier than any of his previous ships.

 

Maybe true, they have the head start by being baggage-less but this is their first season as an official romance,  who knows where they will end up  in a couple of years with this kind of writing...

Edited February 11, 2015 by Conell

[BkWurm1]

Felicity, the fan favourite , the special and pure one, we have to protect her at all cost like an egg. Oliver's regression and incompetence just seems more magnified and exaggerated because of the character he is opposite with.

 

If this is protecting Felicity like she is as fragile as an egg, lord save me if they ever stop. 

 

IMO Oliver's regression and incompetence is all about whatever big moment TPTB have planned in the last act and nothing, even logic, will stop them.  They didn't pull the Malcolm drugged Thea and forced her to kill Sara so that Ra's killed Oliver and Oliver decided to work with Malcolm for any Olicity related reason. 

[Password]

I just had the strangest thought, how old is Ray?

We now know Felicity's 25, Oliver is 30, is Ray in his thirties?

[BkWurm1]

I just had the strangest thought, how old is Ray?

We now know Felicity's 25, Oliver is 30, is Ray in his thirties?

Well BR is 35. 

[jay741982]

Well BR is 35.

So Ray is likely Mid 20's to Mid 30's

[Password]

Potentially 10 year difference. I wonder if we'll ever find out.

[statsgirl]

I'm hoping the ship will be long over before the question of relative ages comes up.  But ten years isn't that big a difference.

[wonderwall]

I said it over in the canaries thread and I'll say it here: 

 

To the people freaking out about the whole 'light' thing...
 

"you’re an addict" "go to hell"

This is why this relationship will never work and overshadows any crap metaphor about light.