Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think that scene, as written would have sucked. I like that EBR and SA played the scene the way they did, that's where the happy accident/chemistry comes into play.

As written the scene makes "Felicity" into yet another Oliver conquest-in-waiting.  Emily Bett Rickards chose to play her as a real person who reacted to Oliver's BS the way a real person would.  In turn that gave Stephen a chance, really the only chance he'd had up to then, to play Oliver as a real person.  There's a whole hidden conversation made from looks and body language that the two of them have within that scene that turns it into something awesome.

Felicity: You're BSing me.  I know you're BSing me.  I wonder if you know that I know you're BSing me.

Oliver:  I totally know that you know I'm BSing you and I appreciate you not calling me on it.  I also appreciate that you have an active brain and full personality.  I need this done.  It's important.  And I can't tell you why it's important, but it needs to be done.

Felicity: Then I'll do it, both because you're my ultimate boss's son and because we understand each other.  And because I'm still a little embarrassed by the whole dead father blathering from earlier.

One other aspect is that Felicity was really the only character he hadn't successfully deceived.  Everyone else had pretty much fallen for the "party boy castaway" act he'd put up.  Diggle at that point might have sensed something a little hinky, but Felicity was the only one who heard Oliver's patter and pretty much silently went, "Yeah, that's BS."

Edited June 22, 2017 by johntfs

[lemotomato]

3 minutes ago, johntfs said:

As written the scene makes "Felicity" into yet Oliver conquest-in-waiting.  Emily Bett Rickards chose to play her as a real person who reacted to Oliver's BS the way a real person would.  In turn that gave Stephen a chance, really the only chance he'd had up to then, to play Oliver as a real person.  There's a whole hidden conversation made from looks and body language that the two of them have within that scene that turns it into something awesome.

This! You've summed up exactly why the scene is special. And now that you mention it, the only other person to respond to Oliver this way was Diggle. It's interesting that the only people that saw through his facade right at start were the two he had no history with. Everyone else that knew Oliver from before the island seemed to just accept that he was the same playboy douchebag from before, which is ridiculous, if you think about it, because who would believe a person had not changed after 5 years on a deserted island?

[Morrigan2575]

39 minutes ago, johntfs said:

As written the scene makes "Felicity" into yet Oliver conquest-in-waiting.  Emily Bett Rickards chose to play her as a real person who reacted to Oliver's BS the way a real person would.  In turn that gave Stephen a chance, really the only chance he'd had up to then, to play Oliver as a real person.  There's a whole hidden conversation made from looks and body language that the two of them have within that scene that turns it into something awesome.

That's exactly it. As written Felicity comes off as a conquest or fan girl. She's not a real person and, I think she would have been easily dismissed as a nothing character. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have cared about her.

EBR played against written she did the awkward babble but, played Felicity as disbelieving, like you said.

Quote

Felicity: You're BSing me.  I know you're BSing me.  I wonder if you know that I know you're BSing me.

Oliver:  I totally know that you know I'm BSing you and I appreciate you not calling me on it.  I also appreciate that you have an active brain and full personality.  I need this done.  It's important.  And I can't tell you why it's important, but it needs to be done.

Felicity: Then I'll do it, both because you're my ultimate boss's son and because we understand each other.  And because I'm still a little embarrassed by the whole dead father blathering from earlier.

That's exactly how it played out and the scene became fun/funny. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

This! You've summed up exactly why the scene is special. And now that you mention it, the only other person to respond to Oliver this way was Diggle. It's interesting that the only people that saw through his facade right at start were the two he had no history with. Everyone else that knew Oliver from before the island seemed to just accept that he was the same playboy douchebag from before, which is ridiculous, if you think about it, because who would believe a person had not changed after 5 years on a deserted island?

The thing is that pretty much everyone who'd known Oliver before the Island kind of expected/wanted him to be the same as he had been because they all knew how to relate to him.  So, Oliver obliged them, figuring, quite correctly, that the best way to keep his secret was to let people think there wasn't anything new about him.  Neither Felicity nor John had any real preconceptions about Oliver (though both had probably heard things, Felicity less than John) so they were able to grasp a fuller, truer picture of him.  It's also interesting to note that the two people who saw through Oliver to some degree were the first ones he brought into his Arrow secret in total.

One thing as well to note is Oliver had changed somewhat but not completely.  Hood Oliver was still something of a user of people.  He used them for "noble" purposes, but still used them.  He'd planned to bring Diggle in before his hand was forced by the poison because he wanted someone to help as backup and to keep his secret.  Even before he ended up in her car, Oliver kept going to Felicity for information even though he had to know she was suspicious.  That's still an Oliver trait - once he establishes somebody as useful/trustworthy he doesn't like to broaden his circle of trust any further than he has to.  And once Felicity was in on the secret and Oliver saw how much her capabilities improved his effectiveness, he determined to keep her around.  It's the big reason he "promoted" her to be his executive secretary against her will and without any concern for how her reputation likely suffered among her previous co-workers.

Co-worker1:  "Hey you hear Felicity's the new Exex assistant to to Oliver Queen himself?"

Co-worker2: "Yeah, I bet it's nice working near the Big Chair."

Co-worker3: "I wonder how often he bends her over it?" [insert nasty fratboy chuckles in this space]

Like that.

Edited June 22, 2017 by johntfs

[SmallScreenDiva]

8 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Yeah I totally believe it was completely a happy accident.  I'm not sure I believe that she didn't have a name - I can totally believe they'd throw in "Felicity Smoak" as an Easter Egg for the comics.  Kind of like they had Laurel give a throwaway reference to "Ray and Jean" in that flashback scene where she's trying to talk Oliver into them getting a place together.

There was a podcast with Guggenheim, or maybe it was Kreisberg, and the EP talked about how they came up with the name Felicity Smoak. They had another name from the comics in mind (Karen? With an alter ego that sounds like a bee? I might be totally off) but decided that character was too big for an Easter egg and could likely be brought in later in the show's run, and so they found somebody else computer related — Felicity Smoak. 

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

There was a podcast with Guggenheim, or maybe it was Kreisberg, and the EP talked about how they came up with the name Felicity Smoak. They had another name from the comics in mind (Karen? With an alter ego that sounds like a bee? I might be totally off) but decided that character was too big for an Easter egg and could likely be brought in later in the show's run, and so they found somebody else computer related — Felicity Smoak. 

Probably Karen Beecher/Bumblebee?

I only know that because she was in the second season of Young Justice. 

Wikipedia says she was DC's first African American female superhero.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Starfish35

[tv echo]

^^^ Here's what AK and EBR said about Felicity being "Karen Beecher"...

-- Fat Man on Batman Podcast 103: Passion of the Kreisberg - Part 2 of 2-part interview (Dec. 16, 2015):
Per AK, Oliver needed some IT help, so they introduced the Felicity character for one episode.  The quirky Felicity-type character was originally created by AK for the Red Faction pilot for SyFy. In fact, Felicity was originally going to be Karen Beecher, also known as Bumblebee, but Bumblebee was a big character for a one-off scene, so they changed the character's name to Felicity Smoak (who's Firestorm's stepmom and a computer person who doesn't do anything else in the comics).  AK: "We saw like a bunch of actresses. I remember Marc was standing over my shoulder.  Emily read... - she was working in a pet store at the time, she had like one credit, one guest starring credit... one like co-star credit on like some Canadian show - and we were both just, like, bedazzled by her. Like, she was weird and quirky and funny and we were like ‘Let’s hire her’. We’ll make that scene fun. And then we got those dailies back and we were all like, everybody was like, ‘Did you see those dailies with Stephen and, and, and that girl?’ Because you could tell something happened to him. He, like, lightened up, and he, like, got smiley and he really liked her and it came through on screen… And then the network called, and then the studio called, and they were like, 'This girl, who is she? Like, what’s her deal? .... Fuck this. Imagine how much more fun this scene with him, Dig in the cave would be if he had Felicity there to... [Arrow] wasn’t Arrow until… the episode where [Felicity Smoak] kinda found out. Like from that point on it feels much more like the show."

-- ComicBookMovie.com article titled “EXCLUSIVE: ARROW Star Emily Bett Rickards On Becoming Felicity Smoak” (Feb. 12, 2013):

Quote

CBM: Your character – Felicity – is very smart and very up-to-date with technology. Once you found out you got the role, how’d you prepare for it? 
Well, when I found out I got the role I wasn’t aware that I was auditioning for Felicity Smoak. It was under the name of Karen Beecher who comes from Teen Titans, if I’m not mistaken. When I found out she was nerdy and super-smart, getting to know her and getting to know her character was looking into the DC Comics world and channeling that sort-of awkward ability that I think is ingrated in every one thing and finding her little ticks and buttons and knowing how her brain works systematically.
*  *  *
CBM: In this week’s episode, Felicity will attempt to save Oliver’s life and seemingly find out his nightly routine. How will this affect her? 
How does this affect her? Well I think when she finds out that Oliver is who he is, she’s minorly shocked but everything makes sense. So everything Oliver has done or brought to her to do, all these jobs, just start to make sense. Everything becomes clearer. I think that affected her a lot. Also, she’s put into ‘Survival Mode’, she and Diggle have to save Oliver. So that’s it. That’s huge. And then she starts to understand who Oliver really is without his biggest mascot. He still has barriers up, but we can look forward to seeing them getting to know each other better now.
*  *  *
CBM: Are any of Felicity’s ‘awkward moments’ improvised? 
Stephen and I really sometimes do a little bit of improvisation in scenes, and Stephen gives it a little bit of ad-lib sometimes and I think the fun for me is being an actor and looking at chunks of dialogue and looking to see where I can make certain beats more awkward, or even less awkward that I hope I can do and keep doing and getting good feedback for it.

Edited June 22, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

^^^ ETA: So in 2015, AK said that "Arrow wasn't Arrow" until the episode where Felicity found out Oliver's secret identity. And yet the 100th episode mostly sidelined Felicity and Diggle.

Also, I always found it ironic that Laurel never guessed that Oliver was the Vigilante/Hood/Arrow. Yet Laurel said multiple times that she knew Oliver in his bones, and Oliver said that Laurel always saw the best in him.

Edited June 22, 2017 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

56 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Also, I always found it ironic that Laurel never guessed that Oliver was the Vigilante/Hood/Arrow. Yet Laurel said multiple times that she knew Oliver in his bones

Just another thing that made her look delusional.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

I just finished watching iZombie S1 and remember thinking, here's Major (the love interest) stumbling across Zombies while trying to save kid, putting the pieces together and doing something about it when he couldn't get help. Pro active, caring and not stupid. 

They failed to accomplish any of that with Laurel.

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

^^^ ETA: So in 2015, AK said that "Arrow wasn't Arrow" until the episode where Felicity found out Oliver's secret identity. And yet the 100th episode mostly sidelined Felicity and Diggle.

Instead of a love letter to fans, it was more like "this is the show that we wanted to write if everything had worked out like it was in our heads. Yay us"

[insomniadreams88]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

^^^ ETA: So in 2015, AK said that "Arrow wasn't Arrow" until the episode where Felicity found out Oliver's secret identity. And yet the 100th episode mostly sidelined Felicity and Diggle.

Yeah, I think that's what disappointed me the most about the 100th. We didn't get any scenes with the real Felicity and Oliver or Diggle. They just forgot about those relationships they'd spent the previous 99 episodes building to focus on the alien dream world and the dead characters/relationships that hadn't existed for years. 

The thing is, they still could have done what they did with the 100th if that's what they wanted so badly, but also included the other aspects/relationships of the show. It's a shame they didn't.

Edited June 22, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Instead of a love letter to fans, it was more like "this is the show that we wanted to write if everything had worked out like it was in our heads. Yay us"

I took the 100th episode as "this is the psuedo-utopian bullshit soap-opera that Felicity saved you from."

[ladylaw99]

At the end of the day for me personally the resolution was never going to be satisfying because the lying and breakup seemed so false to me.  I didn't believe that Oliver would have lied to Felicity (about something important) to begin with and I found it even harder to believe Felicity would literally walk out on Oliver without saying a word and never addressing the issue until almost a year later.  This whole scenario just stunk of bs and was an insult to my intelligence by the writer's.  That's why I hated 4B so much. It was such a cliche.

 Drama for the sake of Drama never works. I ended up disliking Oliver and by 5.15 I really thought he was getting  stupider by the minute.   I would have preferred a back and forth conversation between Oliver and Felicity in 5.20 (at the end of the episode) but to be honest I am so done with that storyline and I never want to rehash it again.  It's in the past, let's keep it there writers.

I am more interested to see how their relationship is going to be moving forward.  

Relationships on this show are so important for me whether it's romantic or friendship. The most important relationship for me is OTA.  I know I sound like a broken record but those three characters are why I watch this show.  I was so disappointed once again when OTA was sidelined in season 5 and that is why season 6 I am  no longer walking in with rose coloured glasses.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  I will never believe a word that comes out of the writer's mouth unless I see it on screen.  These three characters deserve so much better then what they have gotten.  Diggle has nothing to do, Felicity is more than just a relationship with Oliver and Oliver can not be shown to be loosing valuable brain cells year after year.  I can't even imagine what kind of stories OTA could have with better writers =:)

One relationship I have no desire to see is any redemption with BS.  I am happy for the fans who enjoy her but for me I am so done with anything to do with LL or BS.  I am already bored to tears with this character.  There is nothing new or fresh about her.  If the writers prove me wrong and make her story interesting then I stand corrected but I have no faith in their writing skills.

[bijoux]

Pretty much all relationships got short changed. Somebody reblogged the S3 scene in which Oliver tells Thea he's the Arrow and that was just so touching and earned. I want more of that.

[ladylaw99]

I couldn't agree with you more @bijoux

[leopardprint]

41 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Pretty much all relationships got short changed. Somebody reblogged the S3 scene in which Oliver tells Thea he's the Arrow and that was just so touching and earned. I want more of that.

That's very true. They pretty much dumped or sped through anything with emotional weight. The little Oliver talked about his relationships was to other people rarely the person in question. Probably a big reason why I felt really disconnected from this season (also because Oliver was so, so, so dumb). 

[tv echo]

3 hours ago, ladylaw99 said:

 Drama for the sake of Drama never works....
*  *  *
Relationships on this show are so important for me whether it's romantic or friendship. The most important relationship for me is OTA.  I know I sound like a broken record but those three characters are why I watch this show.  I was so disappointed once again when OTA was sidelined in season 5 and that is why season 6 I am  no longer walking in with rose coloured glasses.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  I will never believe a word that comes out of the writer's mouth unless I see it on screen.  These three characters deserve so much better then what they have gotten.  Diggle has nothing to do, Felicity is more than just a relationship with Oliver and Oliver can not be shown to be loosing valuable brain cells year after year.  I can't even imagine what kind of stories OTA could have with better writers =:)

You might 'appreciate' the following nonspoilery comments made by MG during yesterday's EW Superhero Insider podcast (posted on page 3 of New Spoiler thread because it also included spoilers)...

-- When asked about what kind of fan feedback he was getting about the new recruits back in the beginning of the season. MG replied: "You know, it's interesting, um, I will say, you know, this was something we had - this idea of expanding the team, uh, and bringing in these new recruits - was something that we thought of doing - we thought of the idea towards the end of Season 4. We thought it would be something interesting because, you know, when you start to get into a fifth season of a show and now a sixth season, you really have to mix things up, uh, because otherwise the show just becomes very stale and you are just recycling old stories and old dynamics. So we - we instinctively felt that the team needed some fresh blood and I think we were - you know, we were surprised, uh, that the recruits ended up being - polarizing overstates it, I think, but controversial. You know, some people absolutely loved the recruits. Other people, uh, felt that having new members of the team des - you know, detracted from, you know, what they loved - which is, you know, what they call 'OTA', which is, you know, the original trio of, uh, Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. Um, but what I think was most surprising - at least to me about that - was that there have always been a lot of people in the lair apart from Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. Um, you know, we've had Laurel, we've had Roy, we've had Thea, we've had Sara. Um, you know, it's always - Team Arrow has always been, uh, a bigger group than just that core trio. Um, so I was a little surprised, you know, by some people objecting to it. But at the same time, you know, I think that's kind of the nature of Arrow, which is, we do a lot of things and, uh, our fans enjoy debating the pros and cons of the creative choices we make."

-- When asked about any format changes for next season, MG said, in part, that he doesn't believe in changing things up just to change things up, and that it "has to be driven by the story... It can't be a format change just to be a format change. That's the cart dragging the horse." 

Edited June 23, 2017 by tv echo

[ladylaw99]

What I got from his interview is that he says "you know " a lot.

Yes he has brought in other people in the lair but I knew these characters before.  They had a story of their own before they were brought into the team and no I am not talking about a one episode deal.    Both Sara and Roy had a great introduction to the team.  LL did not.  To me it looked like they had nothing left for her so lets bring her into the fold.  I liked how Thea found out as well.

OTA is the core.  These are the characters that did not know Oliver before the island and for me made him likable. 

Thanks tv echo.  MG's  interview just shows me how clueless he is.  It was not just fans but critics that did not warm up to the new kids on the block.

[Hiveminder]

Sara, Roy, and Laurel already had history and relationships we were invested in before they came into the lair. They didn't join the team two episodes after they were introduced. There also weren't fifty billion of them showing up all at once. Roy joined the team, then later Sara came back, then later Laurel became involved. They didn't all become part of team Arrow in episode two. 

[leopardprint]

They didn't exist specifically only to be on the team. All the original team members had relationships outside of the team. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Also, ratings plunged when the focus shifted to Sara and the Lance Family Drama in S2. How did the ratings go for Arrow this season?

[tangerine95]

I don't think they ever managed to handle the team getting new members well even way before the newbies,apart from maybe Roy in season 2 because they took their time with him and it was a new thing for Oliver to be a mentor and have a sidekick.Expanding the team has always been a problem for them imo.

Sara had a nice introduction to the team and she actually had the skills to be very useful but she and her relationship with Oliver totally changed the successful team dynamic that existed before and sidelined Digg and Felicity more than anyone ever had imo.Laurel pushed her way onto the team untrained,was a liability and wasn't really needed,Oliver fought her on it every step of the way and just gave up when everyone ganged up on him.Thea was more like Roy I guess but she also kinda snuck her way on the team and she was part of the whole everyone is equal even if they were on the team for 5mins and contributed nothing dynamic of season 4.Not to even mention how a bigger team tends to lower the quality of fight scenes and how they barely allow some characters to talk to each other and build actual friendships or how they ignore already established friendships in favor of whatever new team member they need to push.

So basically I don't think they can handle a team with more than 3,max 4 people.Plus I don't actually think it's a regular thing for a superhero team to change as much as team arrow does.Like no wonder OTA is popular,they're literally the only team that lasted from the start.Everyone else just comes for a season,they make a big deal out of it,waste a ton time on training and establishing new team members and then they're gone.It's getting old that every season there's a storyline about team arrow expanding or adjusting to changes.I hope in season 6 the team remains stable even if I don't really care about any of the new members.

Edited June 23, 2017 by tangerine95

[tv echo]

26 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Also, ratings plunged when the focus shifted to Sara and the Lance Family Drama in S2. How did the ratings go for Arrow this season?

S2 ratings...
http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/arrow-season-two-ratings-30300/

S5 ratings...
http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/arrow-tv-show-cw-season-five-ratings/

Edited June 23, 2017 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

The bump they got going from a .69 for 2-20 to a .8 for 2-21 is proof to me how tired the audience was of not getting OTA focus.  

[statsgirl]

52 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

The bump they got going from a .69 for 2-20 to a .8 for 2-21 is proof to me how tired the audience was of not getting OTA focus.  

And yet, they didn't learn. They were/are still doing it in s5.

[tv echo]

It may be easier for them to go to the comics for "inspiration" and just adapt origin stories for new characters, than to think up new stories for the same core characters (although other shows manage to do it).

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I just think the act of giving the ring back taints it with all the reasons why they broke up. If the marriage goes through at a later date, it should be a clean start, new ring and everything. 

It's not a huge deal for me, I just think new start/clean slate is the way to go.

(Brought over from the Spoiler's thread, we were just discussing if there is a wedding, whether Felicity should be given her old engagement ring back. ) 

I get what you are saying.  And in some circumstances I would agree, but their specifics for breaking up don't meet my personal line in that sand. If they'd actually gotten married and divorced, then absolutely, no matter the reason, I say toss the old ring (okay, let's not be wasteful, just give it to Thea to do with as she likes) and bring in a new one no matter the circumstances.  The ring becomes a symbol of a failed marriage.  

But as an engagement ring before a wedding happens, I think for me, as long as the love was never in doubt between Oliver and Felicity, the symbol of that love is untainted, and no new ring is needed.  Because as much as it probably hurt Felicity to look at the ring when she realized they couldn't be together, IMO all that pain would not remain with the ring the minute that they COULD be together since again, the love was never the issue and whereas before looking at the ring would be looking at a lost future, now looking at the ring would be having that dreamed of future restored.

 And since her ring was an heirloom and meant even more to Oliver because it belonged to his mom, anything else would kind of seem less than, not hugely, but enough that I'd need to be convinced in show that what replaced it was not viewed by either of them as a less personalized choice.   

In the bigger picture, I guess by my standards, they don't need a fresh start.  As awful as the break up was, they IMO needed it to end up together in the long run (though Oliver not ever lying in the first place and not ever regressing would have been equally fine and believable for me).   Of course I'm over thinking this, but I feel like a fresh start is something you save for a relationship like Ollie and Laurel had, where they were really horrid to each other and if the original plan for the show had been followed, they would only have gotten together because half a decade had passed and Oliver was a brand new person so they weren't even the same people any more.  That kind of relationship needs a fresh start, a reset to zero, a letting go of the past's toxicity.  But in the case between Olicity, I see it as not a fresh start, but more a rebirth or continuation of what was before, only better now.   

Edited June 28, 2017 by BkWurm1

[ComicFan777]

I think an heirloom ring is more than just about the person who used to wear it, but about the marriage that it symbolized.  For me, Moira's ring was already tainted when Oliver gave it to Felicity in the first place.  It was the wedding ring that Moira wore during a marriage that was full of cheating, and then on top of that, Oliver proposed to Felicity with it while he was lying to her.  Felicity and Moira never liked each other either.  I'd lean more towards fresh start with a new ring.

[statsgirl]

On the other hand, if it's the same ring it's an acknowledgement that they were right before to want to marry each other, they just got off-track for a while.

[leopardprint]

Hmmm...I'd like Oliver to explain to Felicity why he went through with the engagement and planning the wedding when he had the lie hanging over his head. It really seems like he was kind of trying to trap her in hindsight, especially since he never followed up with Samantha about the lie, post engagement. Probably because he doesn't trust himself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think it was touching that Oliver decided to give her his mom's ring (we all know how important she was to him) but also Felicity and Moira didn't get along because Moira was shady so getting her ring was a bit weird to me in season 4 already..

I'd go for a new ring but I don't think the writers care about stuff like this..

[JJ928]

They could give the ring a little more history. Maybe the ring before being Moira's belonged to Robert's mother or grandmother. That  way it's more than just Moira's ring. Although, as much as I'd like that, I don't know if this show has it in them.

Edited June 28, 2017 by JJ928

[leopardprint]

Repurposed red pen? 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

Hmmm...I'd like Oliver to explain to Felicity why he went through with the engagement and planning the wedding when he had the lie hanging over his head. It really seems like he was kind of trying to trap her in hindsight, especially since he never followed up with Samantha about the lie, post engagement. Probably because he doesn't trust himself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Telling Felicity first was always the best choice but, I don't think he was trying to trap her at all.  It was what Felicity told him after she found the ring, that their lives were always going to be messy basically so waiting for a perfect time was never going to happen, that prompted the proposal.  Even though I had been dreading it in 409, I found I didn't mind the proposal at all.  It worked IMO even with the lie hanging over his head.  Everything between them during that proposal and the reasons behind it remained true and honest.

 Now that he didn't quickly fill her in on kid soon after, that's the problem I had. He had a window to save himself and he didn't use it.  Had he told her fairly soon after, I don't think Felicity would have been upset at all, concerned that he'd hesitated, but that would have been made up for since he was actually telling her.  I think he could have told her himself even up to right before DD spilled the beans and she would have forgiven him without breaking the engagement.  Just that act of letting her in would have eventually let him off the hook for letting MM know before her (though not without a visit from her loud voice), but once someone else forced his hand, nope, nope, nope.  

Edited June 28, 2017 by BkWurm1

[insomniadreams88]

14 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Even though I had been dreading it in 409, I found I didn't mind the proposal at all.  It worked IMO even with the lie hanging over his head.  Everything between them during that proposal and the reasons behind it remained true and honest.

Yep. I thought I'd hate the proposal in 409, but I didn't. What I didn't like was in 413 when, after finding out that Malcolm knew about William and then chopping off Malcolm's hand, Oliver, instead of telling Felicity about his son, decided to tell her he wanted to get married sooner rather than later.

Because of the way they wrote the BMD from the moment Oliver found out until Felicity did - they clearly wanted Oliver to have a son, but didn't want to actually write the relationship or anything having to do with the kid, hence only one line about Oliver going back and forth to CC without actually considering or caring to ever address the fact that that meant he was lying to Felicity whenever he went to see William, and how often that was was also unclear - I never actually felt like Oliver wanted to tell her so badly it was bothering him. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Not the proposal but the scene where he asked her to get married right away is something that if I heard about in RL I would think the guy wanted to trap his fiancée..to get married before she found out about his mess so with a commitment like that he had more chances of her sticking around later.

I don't even think the writers thought that while writing but it was all so badly written and Oliver had no POV that who even knows what he was thinking..

[leopardprint]

31 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 Even though I had been dreading it in 409, I found I didn't mind the proposal at all.  It worked IMO even with the lie hanging over his head.  Everything between them during that proposal and the reasons behind it remained true and honest.

It actually didn't bother me either until 520 and the explanation, LOL. 

10 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I never actually felt like Oliver wanted to tell her so badly it was bothering him. 

I got the same impression, and if Oliver didn't trust himself shouldn't that have prevented him from being honest with everyone else including Samantha or not pursuing the relationship with William at all. The stupid explanation makes me sideye everything Olicity. 

I actually think his 408 reasoning of coming to terms with it himself is totally valid for holding off on telling her right away but then it went off the rails logically. 

[Angel12d]

I liked the 409 proposal a lot, and this is coming from someone who hates the thought of public proposals. Haha. They usually give me such bad secondhand embarrassment but I thought 409 Olicity was really well done (contrast to how bad it was in 408 but whatever). 

And while I know Felicity and Moira didn't get along, she was still Oliver's mother and he clearly wanted his future wife to have his mother's ring. It's a sweet sentiment. I get it. And Felicity accepted so I have to assume she gets it, too.

[icandigit]

Had to comment on my fav topics of discussion bmd and ota. I didn't buy Oliver lying to Felicity long term. Initially, like someone mentioned earlier when he first found out, sure. But, I figured he would tell because he needs her to help him handle it. And to tell him what to do and be his cheerleader. I could see him not telling her due to fear of losing her, but they made the whole thing too convoluted.

With the OTA I wish they could have explored the team dynamic highlighted in Dangerous Liaisons. Felicity is not just the IT girl they need to protect from season 1.  I like the noobies ok, but ok isn't enough to make me want to tune in. Still not sure why there wasn't more with Diggle and Felicity. They would be the main ones having to work together to deal with the noobs.  

[tennisgurl]

I thought the proposal fit Olicity pretty well, so it being public didn't bother me. I thought it was cute, especially coming from Oliver, who usually plays everything so close to the chest. I think it was his attempt at showing her that she mattered so much to him, that he was willing to tell the entire city about his love for her. Of course, the Stupidest Secret Ever was still hanging over their heads, but I tended to just ignore that plot contrivance unless I had to acknowledge it. Selective blackouts are your friend!

You know, I was just thinking about how much the stupid William plot reminded me of my least favorite plot in a show that seems about as different from Arrow as humanly possible, the "Luke's secret daughter" plot in Gilmore Girls. Both had a previously unknown child of the male half of the shows OTP couple, that had finally gotten together after much hemming and hawing, had said male character act out of character by hiding the kids existence from their girlfriend/fiancé at the insistence of the kids mom, and existed only to cause angst for the main OTP and break them up for a season or two before they inevitably get together again. Did the Arrow writers just watch that whole storyline and were like "this is brilliant writing! Brilliant I say! We MUST incorporate this bullshit into our show!". Although, at least in GG they tried to give the kid an actual personality. It was an annoying personality, but a personality none the less. All we have about William is being stupid. Other than that, he could be Oliver's favorite baseball glove for all that he influenced that plot. Both of these kids exist for one reason, and one reason only: To create drama when the main couple is in a good place, and to break them up to create more contrived angst.

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, April's mom didn't care who knew about her, but she refused to let her kid spend time with or get to know her father's fiance on the basis that she might not stick around.  What the??!! At least on GG they didn't claim the mom was a saint.  And Luke finally took her to court to get his rights, something I don't see Oliver ever doing.  Though Oliver does have the "I'll save you from evil dudes" as a bargaining chip.

[tennisgurl]

I mean, if nothing else at least the mom from Arrow has a better reason not to tell Oliver the truth, before and after she found out who he really was. Aprils mom was just like "You mentioned one time that you didn't like kids, so I assume you would never want to have children ever, including the one you have", which was just utter nonsense, then acted like his fiancé was just some one night stand. The most dangerous enemy Luke has is Taylor, who I don't think has the League of Assassins on speed dial, and Lorelai was his beloved by the community fiancé. But, as you said, I don't think we were supposed to like Aprils mom, at least later on when even the writers realized how awful she was. Williams mom is clearly supposed to be a super awesome loving mother, which, eh. Teach your kid stranger danger lady.

[Hiveminder]

I'd forgive a lot if they had Oliver take Samantha to court, but that will never happen. 

[Angel12d]

Ugh the Gilmore Girls BMD. That ruined everything for me! 

As for Arrow, to this day I still don't understand why Samantha wanted Oliver to lie to Felicity (and everyone) though? If she had known he was Green Arrow I could totally understand because obviously it meant her child was in danger so keeping him a secret would be wise. BUT SHE DIDN'T KNOW THAT AT THE TIME. So why the hell was she so insistent? OMG the contrived dumb drama hurts, it burns! 

I still view Samantha as a garbage person and that will never change. 

[leopardprint]

49 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I'd forgive a lot if they had Oliver take Samantha to court, but that will never happen. 

I'd forgive a lot if Oliver even told his quiver, "You know that was pretty messed up for Samantha to ask me to do that. I shouldn't have done that." 

19 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

As for Arrow, to this day I still don't understand why Samantha wanted Oliver to lie to Felicity (and everyone) though?

She didn't like the Queens because of Moira (reasonable) and because Oliver was out impregnating young girls (ok, Samantha, you were totes a victim in all that) and didn't want William involved in Oliver's crazy life, which would be reasonable if she asked him not to publicize their relationship instead of keeping it a secret from his fiancee. It was a completely insane request. 

23 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I still view Samantha as a garbage person and that will never change. 

Yup. 

[lemotomato]

@Mellowyellow, I think KC often plays Laurel as angry because that's how she portrays "tough girl", and that's how she looks when she's with anyone, so it's not a specific issue she has with SA. There have been times when Laurel's not angry with Oliver that KC tried to play up something that's not supposed to be there, like in 301 when they're at the police press conference and she's gives him almost a coy look at the end when he thanks her. (This of course, right before Oliver asks Felicity out on a date)

And then there's the time when she caresses his cheek in 417 or 418 after they talk about Olicity breaking up, of all things.

Just odd decisions here and there that show she wasn't just talking about her head canons in interviews, she was letting them influence how she played LL with Oliver on the show.

Edited June 30, 2017 by lemotomato

[Mellowyellow]

Haha SA's face is priceless!

[wonderwall]

6 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Haha SA's face is priceless!

Some thought those were heart eyes he was sporting lol

But yeah. KC really shouldn't have done that. Knowing that she was in love with him in that moment it looked like she was making a move. And RIGHT after his break up with Felicity? Girl ain't a good friend. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

Some thought those were heart eyes he was sporting lol

It was more like a mix between Ultimate Nope face and internally screaming "Get your GD hands off me. I would remove your hand if the camera wasn't on us. STOP TOUCHING ME"