Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[tv echo]

16 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Moira really liked Laurel for obvious "she's responsible and might drag Oliver into growing up" reasons, but Robert's reaction to Sara on the Gambit is kinda ambiguous. He tells Ollie it's not going to end well for any of them (true) but then leaves the scene with a roll of his eyes and a smile. not a "when we get to Shanghai I'm putting her on a plane home and we're going to have a talk about what kind of man you should be and there are other (Undertaking) things we need to discuss." I know he was never parent of the year but as he himself pointed out Oliver is napalming his life (again). Not to mention he was on what he knew might be a dangerous and secret mission to stop Malcolm.

 

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver didn't know what he wanted but he also didn't know how to fight against what he didn't want which at this point was to move in with Laurel much less marry her.  Thanks to Robert and Moira's sterling parenting, he had learned to take the path of least resistance and then he would get what he wanted.  Didn't want to go to college?  Play hooky and either drop out of fail out and then he had the rest of the time off until they paid off the next college to enroll him in.  If I had dropped out of a college and hadn't told my parents, I'd be rowing that boat to China.  But Robert and Moira shrugged it off and let Oliver get on the boat with Robert.  And when Robert found out Sara was there, all he said was that this wasn't going to end well for any of the three of them instead of finding the nearest port and putting both Oliver and Sara on a plane homeward bound with Sara's parents waiting at the other end.

The Queen parents' treatment of pre-island Oliver is why I eye-rolled the whole retconny idea promulgated by the 100th episode (and intimated by SA at a recent comic con*) that, if Oliver hadn't gotten on The Queen's Gambit, Oliver and Laurel would've gotten married and lived happily ever after. No, Oliver might've grown up into an adult, but an adult version of his father, Robert Queen, who was an unfaithful husband and corrupt businessman. And I'm sure that his mother, Moira Queen, would've continued to cover for and clean up Oliver's mistakes. Pre-island Oliver was not held accountable for anything, and there was no indication that that would ever change.

(* At HVFF-London on May 28, 2017, in response to fan asking if Earth 2 Oliver would've treated Laurel better than Earth 1 Oliver, SA replied: "I think that everything is different for Oliver if he doesn't get on the boat. I mean, everything is different. And, uh, you know... there's obviously a version there, there's an Earth where, you know, it's Oliver [and] Laurel forever." - source.)

I think that pre-island Laurel knew on some level that Oliver was cheating on her, but deliberately turned a blind eye to it because she wanted her dream life.  As for post-island Laurel, I always felt that her anger at Oliver and Sara stemmed more from her public humiliation than private hurt - that the whole city (and probably world) knew about the fact that her boyfriend and sister betrayed her. I feel like Moira and Robert had this unspoken pact for their marriage: Moira would overlook his occasional affairs as long as Robert was discreet and didn't humiliate her in public, and the two of them would be Starling City's power couple.  Laurel may have modeled herself after Moira. Once she married Oliver, she'd be willing to overlook his side affairs as long as he was discreet. With that kind of thinking, Laurel might very well have thought that Felicity was a temporary girlfriend and even temporary wife, who Oliver would eventually cheat on (because this is the Oliver who Laurel knew in her bones), causing Felicity to divorce him. Therefore, she might think that Oliver would have eventually returned to her, if she's patient, because she's someone who'd be willing to overlook his occasional indiscretions.

The problem for Laurel, however, is that she didn't really know the Oliver who returned after five years in hell as a very changed man. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by tv echo

[ladylaw99]

I agree with you @tv echo, there is no way "Ollie" would not have cheated on LL on the regular basis.  He was selfish, whiny,  and had alot of growing up to do. Gosh, I REALLY DISLIKE "OLLIE".  

LL, in my opinion, had no self-respect. For her to even want to be with Oliver again after the whole sister situation told me enough about the character that I knew I would never respect her.  I never thought she loved Oliver but she loved the idea of being a "Queen".

[leopardprint]

Not only did Moira and Robert completely enable Ollie's treatment of Laurel but didn't Dinah the Elder basically shrug off Sara running off with her sister's boyfriend? Or did Dinah not know it was Ollie she was running off with? 

No wonder Laurel was so angry. 

[Starfish35]

I'd have to go back and watch the scene, but I'm pretty sure she knew.  

I agree with you, @tv echo.  Without the island, Oliver and Laurel may have married, but I don't think there's any reason to think that he would have changed.  He would just have continued to be the rich party playboy, and it would have depended on how willing Laurel would have been to overlook his constant cheating as to whether they stayed married or not.  

The 100th episode is really nothing more than wishful thinking on Oliver's part (and Sara's also).  

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

The 100th episode is really nothing more than wishful thinking on Oliver's part (and Sara's also).  

And they didn't even do the wishful thinking right since Oliver treated Laurel like garbage there too - from not answering her phone calls the night before their wedding to leaving the alien-manipulated dream world without saying goodbye to her until she chased him down. Pathetic in every scenario.

[Starfish35]

Dinah did know.  Here's the transcript from the scene:

Quote

How did you know she took her hat with her on "the Queen's Gambit" with Oliver?

[Dinah] [Groans] I saw her.

What do you mean?

[Dinah] I came home early that day, and I saw her. Sara. I saw her put the hat in a bag. She was packing.

You knew she was going with him?

[Dinah] I told her not to-- I told her not to do this, not to you, Laurel. But she said she was in love and she had to follow her heart, even if nobody else thought it was right. Just like I told her... Just like I told her I once did. So... I let her go.  I killed her.  

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=10221&sid=2f0034ee7711094a0c709c80701911fb

[Midnight Lullaby]

I wonder if with a better mother Sara and Laurel would have made better decisions..what kind of mother lets her daughter run away with her sister's boyfriend?? My mother would have killed me, LOL. And I also remember when she told Laurel to get revenge for Sara's death when Laurel had no fighting skills and Sara who was a trained assassin got killed anyway..poor Quentin..but also what was he thinking when he married her?

And Laurel knew Oliver was hooking up with other girls..in the FB with Sara she tells Laurel that they both knew at least ten girls he slept with and Laurel gets mad because Sara can't just be happy for her (it was when she told her she and Oliver were moving in together and Sara was texting Oliver to hook up). I don't know if she hoped he was going to change eventually or if she planned to pretend her life was perfect as long as he was her husband.

[Starfish35]

7 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

in the FB with Sara she tells Laurel that they both knew at least ten girls he slept with and Laurel gets mad because Sara can't just be happy for her

That scene is not entirely clear to me.  Is Sara meaning ten girls that he slept with while he and Laurel were together, or just ten girls?  Were he and Laurel together without any breakups from the time they first got together, meaning Laurel turned a blind eye to all cheating and all his drunk wild behavior as reported on tv? Or was it an on and off thing?  The show really doesn't give us a clear enough timeline for their relationship for us to know one way or the other.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Starfish35

[leopardprint]

Either he was publicly cheating on Laurel or hooking up with a lot of women in between dating Laurel, neither of those reflect well on that relationship. 

This is why it isn't so clearcut to me that the KC/SA anti-chemistry is solely why the romance failed. The relationship was already saddled with metric tons of baggage before the first minute aired and that's on the writers.

Edited June 6, 2017 by leopardprint

[Starfish35]

I think, if the chemistry had been there, they would have eventually started showing us a more positive spin on their past relationship.

[Midnight Lullaby]

14 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

That scene is not entirely clear to me.  Is Sara meaning ten girls that he slept with while he and Laurel were together, or just ten girls?  Were he and Laurel together without any breakups from the time they first got together, meaning Laurel turned a blind eye to all cheating and all his drunk wild behavior as reported on tv? Or was it an on and off thing?  The show really doesn't give us a clear enough timeline for their relationship for us to know one way or the other.

The only timeline that I remember is when Laurel, to convince him to move in together, tells him about their friends and when Oliver tells her that they have been together forever she tells him they have been together longer.

[Starfish35]

8 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The only timeline that I remember is when Laurel, to convince him to move in together, tells him about their friends and when Oliver tells her that they have been together forever she tells him they have been together longer.

I'd forgotten about that.  Well...ok.  Lol.  Yikes.

[statsgirl]

The "ten other women" scene with Laurel and Sara was written late in s2, long after the decision to tank Lauriver, so I don't think that should count as a reason why the relationship failed.

I think it's important to remember that at the time of the Queen's Gambit trip, Oliver and Laurel were 22 and Sara was 20.  I can understand Laurel thinking Oliver would change once they were married, or Oliver and Sara stuck in "let's live for the present" mindsets. They were all very young.  Well not very, very young since Thea is 22 now but young and immature and irresponsible.  Laurel at 27 or 30 (s4) feeling much the same way not so much.

Their parents, on the other hand... I have some sympathy for Dinah although she was wrong to let Sara go.  Quentin and Laurel were similar, and Dinah and Sara were both the wild child or the family. Dinah should have tried hard to stop Sara but Sara's explanation ("she said she was in love and she had to follow her heart, even if nobody else thought it was right. Just like I told her... Just like I told her I once did. So... I let her go.  I killed her. " ) struck a chord in Dinah.  And Dinah paid the price, blaming herself for Sara's death.

8 hours ago, Featherhat said:

 No wonder pre Island Ollie is a useless lump in so many ways and when he finally learns how to do something himself from Yao Fei, Slade and later Shado, he looks so damned surprised and proud of himself. It's the first time in his life he's achieved something that hasn't been bought, because his billions are less than useless on the Island. I think Robert had been planning on telling Ollie Malcolm's plan but that doesn't excuse not putting Sara on the nearest plane home, except that maybe he was in a hurry to meet with Frank Chen and didn't want to call attention to the trip, which was why he was taking the Gambit in the first

Sara calls Quentin from the boat so he definitely thinks she's in school and Sara must have been AWOL (and probably about to flunk out if she was missing several weeks work). Yeah I don't think Laurel was going to give up her plans with Oliver. She didn't seem to care that he was reacting to moving in together like she was telling him he needed to go to the dentist or when he was actively laughing at her in another FB. She was still willing to be with Oliver when she was actively blaming him for her sister's death and the fact that she was internationally humiliated and couldn't either properly grieve or be angry at her sister. She'd probably stay angrier at Sara but "forgive" Ollie, although he may not have been in the "beg for forgiveness/make it right" mood he was post Island if everything had gone to plan and he was at college no 5 in a few weeks time.

Laurel willing to get back together with Oliver but still blaming Sara says a lot about their relationship.  Sara never should have invited Oliver to the family dinner in 2x14 but I can see why she wanted a buffer from Laurel.  Maybe she should have borrowed Diggle instead.

That's a good point that Oliver''s pride in his accomplishments with Yao Fei, Slade and Shado speaks volumes about what a mess he was at home.

I think it says a lot about Robert's blindness wrt his actions and Malcolm's obsession  that he was willing to take Oliver on this cruise. But I hope it was in order to use the father/son cruise as a cover for his real purpose rather than to let Oliver in on the secret.  No way should that Oliver be told anything he couldn't let out in a drunken state.  And Moira, who was such a shark about protecting her children in s1 and 2, shouldn't have let Oliver go with Robert, both for the school issue and because it was so dangerous.

I guess Moira, Dinah and especially Robert learned the hard way, and even more so did their children.

[leopardprint]

17 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The "ten other women" scene with Laurel and Sara was written late in s2, long after the decision to tank Lauriver, so I don't think that should count as a reason why the relationship failed.

The "we've been together longer" flashback was in S1, right? The pilot showed a news clip of him with other women as part of a news story when he returns. I think it's a safe assumption that it wasn't just Sara. 

S1 Laurel, as written prior to any move away from L/O, doesn't seem like the forgive and forget type. (not that she should be but it would be necessary if they were to move forward) 

"Sorry, pretty bird, I forgot to get milk at the store."

"You should have died on that island!"

I agree with you @statsgirl, that Sara and Ollie were just dumb kids but that's not really how Laurel was portrayed. Really, nothing about their relationship made sense. 

The talk about the 100th episode leads me to wonder what Oliver would have been like if Walter had gotten a chance to step parent him. I think he could have turned him around. It's interesting that's RQ's LI was terrible Isabel Rochev and MQ's was wonderful Walter. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

8 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

The "we've been together longer" flashback was in S1, right? The pilot showed a news clip of him with other women as part of a news story when he returns. I think it's a safe assumption that it wasn't just Sara.

I assume that they started dating before that other couple but we don't know if they were together the times Oliver was with other women (girls?) and so he was cheating on Laurel or if they were on-again, off-again and the between times was when he did his sleeping around.  I do assume though from Laurel's reaction in s4 that he was in a relationship with her when he slept with Samantha.

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

(* At HVFF-London on May 28, 2017, in response to fan asking if Earth 2 Oliver would've treated Laurel better than Earth 1 Oliver, SA replied: "I think that everything is different for Oliver if he doesn't get on the boat. I mean, everything is different. And, uh, you know... there's obviously a version there, there's an Earth where, you know, it's Oliver [and] Laurel forever." - source.)

Yep, there's an Earth where it is Oliver and Laurel forever.  But Is that Oliver still cheating on her, and like Moira she accepts it as part of the deal?

[tv echo]

Laurel's perception of herself as a sister and Sara's perception of Laurel as a sister are very different. And the way they treated each other when it came to Oliver Queen was more competitive than loving. This is part of the reason why I've always had trouble accepting that they had a close sisterly bond...

Flashback scene in 2x11 (Blind Spot) -
Sara: "Last time I trusted you was right before the Gambit went down."
Oliver: "I haven't gotten a chance to say this - I'm sorry. I know this is my fault. And none of this would have happened if I hadn't invited you on the boat with me."
Sara: "That's not exactly true. I mean, I was the one who said yes. And it was only half because of your charm."
Oliver: "And the other half?"
Sara: "Do you remember when you spilled that beer on me at Tommy's party?"
Oliver: "No. But I never left one of Tommy's parties with my memory intact."
Sara: "Well, I wasn't even supposed to go. But I snuck out of the house because I knew you were going to be there. And I had this (laughs) - I had this embarrassing crush on you. And Laurel, she knew it. And that's why the party got broken up by the cops. She tipped off our dad. Then I was grounded for a month, and the next thing I knew, you and Laurel were together.”
Oliver: "You think she did all that on purpose?"
Sara: "Not everybody's what they seem."

Flashback scene in 2x13 (Heir to the Demon) -
Sara: "Hey, how's everything with you and Oliver?"
Laurel: "Great. We decided to start looking at apartments together. I know it's a big step... but we're ready. I think we'll live together for a year, engaged for another, and then... Mrs. Laurel Queen. Maybe one day."
Sara: "This is kind of assuming that he's ever ready to settle down."
Laurel: "What's that supposed to mean?"
Sara: "Well, we both know at least ten girls that he's slept with."
Laurel: "Can't you just be happy for me? I mean, if you met some amazing guy who wanted to spend the rest of his life with you, I would be so supportive, and so happy for you."
Sara: "Okay, Laurel, I wasn't trying to be a bitch."
Laurel: "The title of your autobiography."

Edited June 6, 2017 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Laurel: "Can't you just be happy for me? I mean, if you met some amazing guy who wanted to spend the rest of his life with you, I would be so supportive, and so happy for you."

Okay, and if you met an amazing guy who wanted to spend the rest of his life with you, maybe Sara would've been supportive and happy for you! But you never did. :(

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

The Queen parents' treatment of pre-island Oliver is why I eye-rolled the whole retconny idea promulgated by the 100th episode (and intimated by SA at a recent comic con*) that, if Oliver hadn't gotten on The Queen's Gambit, Oliver and Laurel would've gotten married and lived happily ever after.

They must have all forgotten that Ollie pre-Gambit was a guy that would sleep with another man's fiancée at their rehearsal dinner. Laurel's such a lucky girl!

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't feel sympathy for Dinah because she was an adult. What Sara did was awful and at any age she should have known better than to do that to her sister but a mother that doesn't stop her daughter for doing something that had the potential to create so much misery is inexcusable..even if Sara loved Oliver he was planning to move in with Laurel so what did they think was going to happen? If Oliver wanted to leave Laurel for Sara he would have done it. Either they were going to get caught with the consequences we saw or Laurel would have ended up marrying a guy who cheated on her with her sister. Just imagine the family dinners. No one is to blame for what happened to Sara and Oliver during their five years away because no one could have foreseen it but everyone could have foreseen that going on a sex cruise behind Laurel's back was going to cause a lot of pain to everyone involved.

[Starfish35]

I think Sara was having some second thoughts about going through with it, and then when Laurel got snippy with her, she got mad and decided she didn't care.  There may also have been an element of "I'll show her...."   Not that that excuses Sara in any way, or makes what they did Laurel's fault...not saying that.  Just trying to kind of get inside Sara's head and figure out what she was thinking.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

When all of this is over I really want somebody to ask Berlanti, Kreisberg and Guggenheim what they were thinking setting up Laurel and Oliver's romance with him cheating on her with her sister. Because not only did they make it difficult (though not impossible) to root for the romance right off the bat, it also made it difficult to buy the sisterly love they now keep trying to sell with the Lances. It just made all three characters unappealing and hard to root for. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

They had a competitive vibe in their relationship before and after the island so I don't even think what Sara did was about Oliver as a person that much..more about the complicated relationship she had with Laurel. Laurel had this life, perfect on the outside, she had planned and my idea is that Sara who wasn't that put together wanted to shatter the illusion. I don't think she wanted to hurt Laurel but maybe she wanted to get her and the rest of the people they knew to acknowledge that she was like everyone else, not perfect with the perfect life. That also might be because I can't picture two girls fighting over pre island Ollie because he was oh so amazing, LOL.

[ladylaw99]

Looking back at all this, they really were just awful to eachother.  Sara will always be the true BC for me and I hate it that this past SL is attach to her.  This is the one thing I side-eyed Sara about, not only in the past but again in season 2.  I was disappointed with the writers (now that is a regular theme) and I hated that dinner scene.  As much as I feel meh about LL, she didn't deserve to find out the her sister is once again in a relationship with her ex.  It was just awful.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

As much as I feel meh about LL, she didn't deserve to find out the her sister is once again in a relationship with her ex.  It was just awful.

Yeah, that dinner was the worst. The Lances are all pretty great at being awful to each other. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Yeah, I don't think Sara wanted to hurt Laurel either. It seemed from the pilot and the S2 flashbacks that she wanted to keep her dalliance with Oliver a secret (I wonder if she wanted to have a relationship with him or was OK with just hooking up). But at the same time I keep going back to S2 and the lunge and while at the time I thought OK fine they just wanted comfort during that awful day/night, Sara and Oliver did pursue a relationship while knowing Laurel, a person they both claim to care for, was spiraling into drugs and alcohol. A spiral that is rooted in their shared history. There's a callousness there that's just extremely off-putting.

Oliver, pre and post island, was just awful to and for Laurel. So was Sara. 

[ohjoy]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

(* At HVFF-London on May 28, 2017, in response to fan asking if Earth 2 Oliver would've treated Laurel better than Earth 1 Oliver, SA replied: "I think that everything is different for Oliver if he doesn't get on the boat. I mean, everything is different. And, uh, you know... there's obviously a version there, there's an Earth where, you know, it's Oliver [and] Laurel forever." - source.)

The thing about this response is that Earth 2 Oliver still got on the boat. He just wasn't the one to survive. So it seems to imply that E2 Oliver was not that different from pre-island Ollie. So whatever earth has "Ollie+Laurel 4Ever", it doesn't seem like Earth 2 was going to be it anyway.

[Starfish35]

He still got on the boat, but we don't know that Sara was with him.  We don't even know that there is an E2 Sara (other than KC's comments at HVFF).  

[Chaser]

I honestly don't think they ever sat down and made out a cohesive backstory for Oliver and Laurel. So really nothing makes sense.

Laurel and Oliver were together for a long time right? We know they were together when he was with Baby Mama and Sara. Were they together when he was with the fiancé? Were they together when he punched the pap, cause that wasn't her he was hanging off of.

I don't think they had an idea and then when they decided to tank the relationship they didn't care.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Chaser

[leopardprint]

55 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I honestly don't think they ever sat down and made out a cohesive backstory for Oliver and Laurel. So really nothing makes sense.

I think they were also oddly fixated on the idea of Ollie the Playboy while also trying to setup an epic romance which is contradictory to say the least. They put the playboy stuff mostly in the past but then constanly mentioned it which kept poking holes in what was going on in the present. 

The lack of cohesive flashback planning is in all 5 seasons so at least they're consistent.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

I would applaud if Black Siren was just like "Oliver sucked and constantly cheated on me, forget him." but I don't think they are headed that way. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by leopardprint

[Featherhat]

Utimately it doesn't really matter if they would have gotten married if Oliver hadn't taken Sara on the Gambit. He did and he did at least partly because he couldn't handle even the moving in commitment with Laurel, let alone her plan to get engaged in a year's time. That alone shows the 100th was at best a fantasy by aliens. The only thing I'll be annoyed with is if they try and use that as part of a BS "redemption" storyline or "2nd Chance" since its stupid and even more insulting to LL as a character since hey, you, your sister, your evil doppelganger, doesn't matter to Oliver! Although KC probably wouldn't mind.

45 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Laurel and Oliver were together for a long time right? We know they were together when he was with Baby Mama and Sara. Were they together when he was with the fiancé? Were they together when he punched the pap, cause that wasn't her he was hanging off of.

I think he might have been since it said "shortly before his disappearance" about the paparazzi encounter and we know he was with Laurel then. Probably just another girl she was ignoring.

 

3 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

That scene is not entirely clear to me.  Is Sara meaning ten girls that he slept with while he and Laurel were together, or just ten girls?  Were he and Laurel together without any breakups from the time they first got together, meaning Laurel turned a blind eye to all cheating and all his drunk wild behavior as reported on tv? Or was it an on and off thing?  The show really doesn't give us a clear enough timeline for their relationship for us to know one way or the other.

I agree the timeline is screwy but he hooked up with at least some of those girls when they were together. He was probably out with others when Laurel was studying for the LSATs and actually hooking up when telling Laurel he was just out with Tommy etc. If it was so on and off, why was Laurel so insistent about them moving in together?

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Sara and Oliver did pursue a relationship while knowing Laurel, a person they both claim to care for, was spiraling into drugs and alcohol. A spiral that is rooted in their shared history. There's a callousness there that's just extremely off-putting.

It was certainly neither of their best moments. I don't think either were thinking of Laurel after the first hook up, just their shared, damaged history, and it ended up with them mostly arguing about Slade (again). I didn't dislike it as much as many people because it did make sense to me. However it always cracked me up that they talked up KC's performance in 2.14 as amazing since I never though it was and it put the further kibosh on L/O as Oliver can't even bring himself to apologise to Laurel for turning up with Sara and angrily dismisses her alcoholic "crucible"

[Cleanqueen]

Oliver would've married Laurel because she would've allowed him to go and sleep with whomever he wanted while maintaining the idea that he was a rich, successful married man like his father.

I knew Laurel never really cared for Oliver when she found out Sara had a crush on him as well and had her sister get grounded. Laurel was just pathetic, it's one thing to accept that your boyfriend is cheating on you with other women but it is another to know your own sister slept with him. I am certain she knew but kept it hidden.

Her deathbed confession has no merit either, I have no idea how Oliver was ever the love of her life. The show never showed that to the audience. Oliver also telling her he was in love with her for half his life had no merit either unless cheating and getting other girls pregnant was a way to show to your life.

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Her deathbed confession has no merit either, I have no idea how Oliver was ever the love of her life. The show never showed that to the audience. Oliver also telling her he was in love with her for half his life had no merit either unless cheating and getting other girls pregnant was a way to show to your life.

Forever one of the funniest lines on the show.

[statsgirl]

Didn't Oliver say "I've loved you for half my life?"  For the Queen men, apparently loving someone and cheating on/lying to them go hand-in-hand.

Dinah should have called someone about Sara heading off on that cruise but I can't think who.  Definitely not Laurel who would have had fifty fits, taken Oliver back and never forgiven her sister.  Would Robert and Moira have done anything?  Maybe she should have called Quentin away from work but he would have taken Laurel's side and maybe got into a physical fight with Oliver.  Or maybe gone down to the docks herself. Eek, that would have been nasty scene, and Sara would have been insisting she's an adult and can make her own decisions.

4 hours ago, leopardprint said:

The talk about the 100th episode leads me to wonder what Oliver would have been like if Walter had gotten a chance to step parent him. I think he could have turned him around. It's interesting that's RQ's LI was terrible Isabel Rochev and MQ's was wonderful Walter. 

Moira got wonderful Walter so that it would hurt more when he left her because of her lies.  We would have been cheering if it were someone like Isabel.

I wonder how much parenting Walter actually did though. Thea was pretty bad in s1 and she had had Walter around for a while.

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

Sara: "Well, I wasn't even supposed to go. But I snuck out of the house because I knew you were going to be there. And I had this (laughs) - I had this embarrassing crush on you. And Laurel, she knew it. And that's why the party got broken up by the cops. She tipped off our dad. Then I was grounded for a month, and the next thing I knew, you and Laurel were together.”
Oliver: "You think she did all that on purpose?"
Sara: "Not everybody's what they seem."

Flashback scene in 2x13 (Heir to the Demon) -
Sara: "Okay, Laurel, I wasn't trying to be a bitch."
Laurel: "The title of your autobiography."

Ouch.  The bitch in that scene wasn't Sara.

If Oliver was in love with Laurel for half his life, it sounds like Oliver and Laurel got together mid-high school, when they were 15 and Sara was 13.  That must have been a pretty wild party of 15 year olds that the police broke up.

Edited June 6, 2017 by statsgirl

[insomniadreams88]

I feel like there was so much inconsistent with Oliver and Laurel's relationship on the show, including

14 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Her deathbed confession has no merit either, I have no idea how Oliver was ever the love of her life. The show never showed that to the audience. Oliver also telling her he was in love with her for half his life had no merit either unless cheating and getting other girls pregnant was a way to show to your life.

And once they knew they weren't going to have them get back together/be endgame, everyone just stopped caring about anything making sense in their history and moved on. (And then we got the 419 flashbacks, which I wish I could forget exist.) Sadly, Laurel (and KC) did not. 

I still wish Laurel had said that she thought Oliver was the love of her life, but seeing him with Felicity, she realized that Tommy was/she hadn't met the love of her life yet/something that didn't have me wanting her off the team and far, far away from Oliver if she had ended up being fine like she thought she was going to be. It also would've been better than her saying he's the love of her life but then talking about hoping he and Felicity got back together.

[bijoux]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

I wonder how much parenting Walter actually did though. Thea was pretty bad in s1 and she had had Walter around for a while.

Did the show ever specify when during the five years Moira and Walter got married?

[leopardprint]

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Moira got wonderful Walter so that it would hurt more when he left her because of her lies.  We would have been cheering if it were someone like Isabel.

I wonder how much parenting Walter actually did though. Thea was pretty bad in s1 and she had had Walter around for a while.

Ooh, @statsgirl, I forgot about Thea, haha, guess Moira was the chief enabler. 

34 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Her deathbed confession has no merit either, I have no idea how Oliver was ever the love of her life. The show never showed that to the audience. Oliver also telling her he was in love with her for half his life had no merit either unless cheating and getting other girls pregnant was a way to show to your life.

It stood out to me that in 415 freaking Samantha apologized to Laurel but Oliver never said anything to her. Honestly, I think she might have been as equally owed an apology as Felicity or at least a close second. Even if their romance was dead and buried (like Laurel currently is), she's supposed to be his close friend! Then two weeks later she's telling him he's the love of her life? WTF? 

Sidebar: I wonder if Oliver would be less consumed by guilt if he actually apologized for some of the majorly horrible things he's done to the closest people in his life. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

The confession also made her look bad because during the course of the show she acted like she was over Oliver and like she knew she deserved better than him (considering the way he has always treated her). Like the scene where she told him she couldn't remember a time when she was in love with him..if she has been pining for him until her death the strong, independent woman that was done with him was a front. They undermined the good they did with her character in S2-3-4.

[Cleanqueen]

It's funny because both her fans and her critics hated that deathbed confession. Her fans hate the fact that they think she propped up Olicity (Olicity didn't need propping up) and her critics hate it because it was erroneous. The last time Oliver and Laurel discussed their past relationship was in season 3 when she said something along the lines of not remembering a time she was ever really in love with him. But apparently really dying has all of a sudden resurfaced old unrequited feelings for her. 

It is pretty evident it was KC's dying request on the show and they never really cared about how it retconned everything the past 4 years, they were just happy to be done with her....oh little did they know.

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

It's funny because both her fans and her critics hated that deathbed confession. Her fans hate the fact that they think she propped up Olicity (Olicity didn't need propping up) and her critics hate it because it was erroneous. The last time Oliver and Laurel discussed their past relationship was in season 3 when she said something along the lines of not remembering a time she was ever really in love with him. But apparently really dying has all of a sudden resurfaced old unrequited feelings for her. 

It is pretty evident it was KC's dying request on the show and they never really cared about how it retconned everything the past 4 years, they were just happy to be done with her....oh little did they know.

Yep at the end of the day you can't blame the writers entirely for this. Katie wanted this, she pushed for and asked for this and the writers blame is that they decided to humor her because they were killing the character off anyway. 

Much like her character desperation to be the centre of attention more important then self respect on her characters part.

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Didn't Oliver say "I've loved you for half my life?"  For the Queen men, apparently loving someone and cheating on/lying to them go hand-in-hand.

Dinah should have called someone about Sara heading off on that cruise but I can't think who.  Definitely not Laurel who would have had fifty fits, taken Oliver back and never forgiven her sister.  Would Robert and Moira have done anything?  Maybe she should have called Quentin away from work but he would have taken Laurel's side and maybe got into a physical fight with Oliver.  Or maybe gone down to the docks herself. Eek, that would have been nasty scene, and Sara would have been insisting she's an adult and can make her own decisions

 

Whilst chasing her down the hall about how awful she was being and saying that he was so done with her that he would pay for her drinks because everyone else was suffering as well and she was sooo self centred. This literally 30 seconds into a meal where Sara and Oliver came to the Lance Reunion meal together and Quentin/Dinah had blown apart again and S/O had been exposed. Such an understanding relationship there, not helped because the show was literally showing spoiled kids Oliver and Sara always seconds away from getting murdered.

Dinah, I really don't know. Sara was 20 so technically Dinah couldn't stop her even if she confiscated her keys or tried to lock her in the house etc but Sara's reasoning *was* selfish and juvenile, so instead of acknowledging "follow your heart" crap that Sara apparently spouted, she should have made more effort to stop her. She is a bit like Robert here. They both knew it would end in at best heartbreak and said so but didn't get actively involved. I've always found it funny that Dinah was so sure random girl on "Salvation Island" was Sara because of her Rockets cap, when we know Sara was wearing barely anything when the Gambit sank and even if she had been wearing a cap it would surely have sunk with the Gambit (unless it was still in a locker when Moira had it salvaged.

Re: the picture of Laurel Oliver carried with him during year 1, which did act as a talisman/icon if not about the actual Laurel. Not only did Laurel give it to him whilst he was telling her sister to circle the block a few times, he must have had it in his pocket whilst he was literally on top of Sara moments before the bomb went off. Just Gross Ollie.

[leopardprint]

28 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Re: the picture of Laurel Oliver carried with him during year 1, which did act as a talisman/icon if not about the actual Laurel. Not only did Laurel give it to him whilst he was telling her sister to circle the block a few times, he must have had it in his pocket whilst he was literally on top of Sara moments before the bomb went off. Just Gross Ollie.

Also, while with Shado, ?. Though, technically he was more faithful to the picture of Laurel than Laurel herself. That's messed up. 

He hooked up with more women in the first year he was back than in all five years away, ?. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by leopardprint

[Featherhat]

7 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Also, while with Shado, ?. 

He hooked up with more women in the first year he was back than in all five years away, ?. 

*Maybe* Although I think Tommy's "well you haven't had sex in over 1000 days" pronouncement in the pilot is one of the least accurate statements.

Helena, McKenna, Laurel, am I missing anyone from year one back? And it's Shado, Sara, (sort of) Tatiana. I think he had more intense relationships on the Island because they all thought they were going to die whereas his S1 post Island dates were all about pre Island Ollie (Laurel, sort of) McKenna (sort of but got him to consider opening up a tiny bit), Helena ( he did open up and she took it and went straight to crazy town), she hurt or  threatened  multiple people Oliver loved/cared about and hundreds of others but to the very end he carried a smidge of empathy, which was interesting, though I don't want to see her again even if JDG ever becomes available.

But yes, most of these don't show an Oliver who was Laurel or nothing. The FB in S3 which shows he made it to Tommy's Birthday party where he murder's Thea's drug dealer shows where he learned L/T were a thing, so it wasn't a surprise when he got back 2-3 years later, combined with the mask he was wearing for a lot of S1 before OTA started to get through to him it's not surprising he didn't react. But then again I don't think Tommy or Laurel hd anything to apologise for re their relationship anyway, regardless of what drunk Thea might have thought.

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Didn't Oliver say "I've loved you for half my life?"

It was probably meant more like "I've loved you for half my life, you know, the half of my life I wasn't fucking other women behind your back and/or in front of your face."

[BkWurm1]

13 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

That scene is not entirely clear to me.  Is Sara meaning ten girls that he slept with while he and Laurel were together, or just ten girls?  Were he and Laurel together without any breakups from the time they first got together, meaning Laurel turned a blind eye to all cheating and all his drunk wild behavior as reported on tv? Or was it an on and off thing?  The show really doesn't give us a clear enough timeline for their relationship for us to know one way or the other.

The specific dialogue in the scene might not have been 100% conclusive but I think the intent of the scene was.  If the ten girls they both knew about hadn't been while Oliver and Laurel were together, then there was no reason for Sara to bring them up as proof that Oliver isn't anywhere near settling down to a commitment like marriage.  (Or even an engagement)  

And you can also bet if Oliver and Laurel were an on and off thing, it was probably because every once and awhile she did get mad about him cheating on her with some other girl.  Laurel seemed to be in the mind set that none of that really mattered because he always came back to her.  But I think she absolutely knew about the chronic cheating.    

11 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Yeah, I don't think Sara wanted to hurt Laurel either. It seemed from the pilot and the S2 flashbacks that she wanted to keep her dalliance with Oliver a secret (I wonder if she wanted to have a relationship with him or was OK with just hooking up). But at the same time I keep going back to S2 and the lunge and while at the time I thought OK fine they just wanted comfort during that awful day/night, Sara and Oliver did pursue a relationship while knowing Laurel, a person they both claim to care for, was spiraling into drugs and alcohol. A spiral that is rooted in their shared history. There's a callousness there that's just extremely off-putting.

Oliver, pre and post island, was just awful to and for Laurel. So was Sara. 

Two things, they didn't intend to spill the beans on their relationship so as bad an idea as going to the dinner was, it wasn't like they planned on rubbing Laurel's nose in it.   The other thing though, is I'm not sure why Laurel should have been considered before they got together.   Should they put their lives on hold for someone that didn't even want their help?  Also, after all the years that their lives had been on hold because of the hell they'd been through, I just couldn't begrudge them time together.  Plus, it wasn't like their getting together was what sent her to the booze and the pills.  She was there already and wasn't that because of Tommy and her own guilt?   Not to mention her own self obsession.  Laurel hated Sara just for being alive.  She couldn't even let her parents have a happy reunion with Sara.  

That's why even though Oliver was the one that was in the wrong in the hallway scene, I still couldn't back Laurel.  She was and had been the wrong one for so long, about so much, that every blow Oliver landed felt cathartic and deserved.  

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Didn't Oliver say "I've loved you for half my life?"  For the Queen men, apparently loving someone and cheating on/lying to them go hand-in-hand.

 I tend to take the "loved you half my life" line as hyperbole.  Half my life to me just meant, most of his dating life.  Laurel had been in his life for a lot of major "adult" milestones and even haunted him during his five years away.   I don't think the numbers actually have to add up to anything logical.  

Quote

Dinah should have called someone about Sara heading off on that cruise but I can't think who.  Definitely not Laurel who would have had fifty fits, taken Oliver back and never forgiven her sister.  Would Robert and Moira have done anything?  Maybe she should have called Quentin away from work but he would have taken Laurel's side and maybe got into a physical fight with Oliver.  Or maybe gone down to the docks herself. Eek, that would have been nasty scene, and Sara would have been insisting she's an adult and can make her own decisions.

A very nasty scene, but it was a nasty situation.  Unless Robert and Dinah were ultimately hoping it would stay hidden, they weren't doing anyone any favors by letting Oliver and Sara dig themselves an even deeper hole.  But at least on Dinah's side, how could she think about letting Laurel go back to Oliver after Sara slept with him?  It was a situation that SHOULD have been blown up.  They all would have been better for it. And if Sara and Oliver pulled the "adult" card, well, then go be "adults" somewhere not around Oliver's Daddy.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

Two things, they didn't intend to spill the beans on their relationship so as bad an idea as going to the dinner was, it wasn't like they planned on rubbing Laurel's nose in it.   The other thing though, is I'm not sure why Laurel should have been considered before they got together.   Should they put their lives on hold for someone that didn't even want their help?  Also, after all the years that their lives had been on hold because of the hell they'd been through, I just couldn't begrudge them time together.  Plus, it wasn't like their getting together was what sent her to the booze and the pills.  She was there already and wasn't that because of Tommy and her own guilt?   Not to mention her own self obsession.  Laurel hated Sara just for being alive.  She couldn't even let her parents have a happy reunion with Sara.  

That's why even though Oliver was the one that was in the wrong in the hallway scene, I still couldn't back Laurel.  She was and had been the wrong one for so long, about so much, that every blow Oliver landed felt cathartic and deserved.  

 

When someone you love is heading towards self destruction I think doing something that could speed the process is very selfish. What set everything in motion was Sara going on the Gambit with Oliver..it destroyed the Lance family. The dinner was to try to mend things between them and bringing Oliver was a way to ensure a mess. Even Quentin is shocked when he sees him there..we could all see it coming. I think Sara and Oliver together bring out the selfish part of themselves, before and after the island. I really don't know what they were thinking..

I don't think they should have kept their lives on hold but showing up at dinner was rubbing it in Laurel's face in the moment she was most vulnerable. If not their present relationship, their past. Just keep it private until you are sure Laurel won't break and do something she won't be able to come back from. Also all of this again not because they loved each other so deeply they couldn't be without one another so was it worth hurting Laurel over it again?

Laurel has always been self centered and some of the things Oliver said in the hallway were true but still it was her apartment, her dinner with her family so if I was her I would have kicked Oliver out within ten seconds of him showing up to dinner. But also I wouldn't have wanted him in my life in general so I'm clearly not like her, LOL.

[Mellowyellow]

I've been watching S2 and watching whole episodes has irked me quite a bit. Should have stuck to the Olicity clips only. 

I hated Oliver giving Felicity "Because of the life I live" speech and then turn around and have that lunge with Sara. This was after he got all jealous of Barry too.

It's almost as unpleasant as 5A and I actually like Sara.

I don't understand his train of thought. He basically abandoned Felicity for a while *grumbles*

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I hated Oliver giving Felicity "Because of the life I live" speech and then turn around and have that lunge with Sara. This was after he got all jealous of Barry too.

I've been reading a fic  He Deserves a Shot (At Being Happy) that is a retelling of season two, only this time, Laurel died and Tommy lived and the story is basically how Tommy being around changes a few things.  (He is such a shipper) But setting the plot aside, this fic got me to a place where I could finally really understand how Oliver would have gone for the lunge with Sara (even though there is no lunge or anything romantic with Sara in the fic, lol).  It really fleshes out the emotions that would have been hanging in the air around that time in a really believable way not only in the fic, but in a way that I could see makes sense for the show as well.  

In the show, by the time he turns to Sara, Felicity has already had her moments with Barry.  Oliver sees this and here is this guy as about as different from him as possible that makes Felicity just smile so easily and they like the same things and talk alike and on paper seem like a perfect match.  Contrast that with Oliver being a dumb ass in Russia with Isabel and then following it up by pushing Felicity away during a time when Felicity wasn't even thinking they could be a real thing.  So even though after Russia, Oliver is more aware of Felicity and his feelings (even if he is in denial of them or trying to fight them) he also thinks SHE's gotten to a point where she wouldn't want him anyway.

 So the lunge happens because Sara is a safe choice (since I don't think Oliver worried about either of them falling in love with each other), he still didn't think he should be with Felicity for all his reasons and he would have thought that she was waiting if not for Barry, someone like Barry.  But not him.  (Which just shows how stupid he was being) 

[bijoux]

Oliver and Sara turning to each other has always made sense to me. It's not what I would have chosen, and in fact I wished and predicted it had been left at hooking up once, but I understood it. Oliver just wasn't ready for Felicity and must have thought they were even more unthinkable than she did, and he and Sara got each other and didn't fear that they might sully the other person. My one complaint is that their team ups took over the show for a while.

[Mellowyellow]

Aiiii 2B sucked Olicity-wise. It's like the frigging dessert! And barely any Felicity screentime. I forgot how bad it was. And people b#tch about S3 (which got good ratings didn't it???)!

Did like that moment in 218 when he was squabbling with Sara and then Felicity stood up and told him to go get Thea and end it and he went. 

Despite her feeling insecure in 214 I thought Felicity took the Sara/Oliver relationship really well. She was pretty much her normal self and didn't sit around with a morose face like Oliver in S3.

[ladylaw99]

It is interesting to go back.  I look at things differently than I did then.  

The lunge didn't bother me only because I could understand why they turned to eachother.  What I didn't understand was why they would want to go back into a relationship that caused so much pain to others but also to themselves.  I don't believed they loved eachother like you would love your partner.  I believed they loved eachother as friends, they had a bond that no one else could ever understand.  

I think Oliver was fighting his feelings for Felicity at that time and felt he was never good enough for her.  Up until he met Felicity, I don't think he ever fell in love with someone.  Sure, he may have loved someone but falling in deep love is completely different.  

I didn't care too much for 2b because my OTA was sidelined and I really was watching Arrow because of that trio.  I could see Oliver already showing signs that he was falling in love with Felicity in episode 2.01 and I admit I didn't think the show was going to go there.