Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

College Laurel seemed like a girl busy growing into a full adult while college Oliver seemed like a selfish hedonist who really only dated Laurel so he go bring her home to mom and dad, show he was (pretending to be) growing up while he fucked other women on the side.  Pre-island Oliver was a deeply shitty human being.

I felt sorry for Tommy and at least somewhat sorry for Laurel.  I think she and Tommy really loved each other but the Oliver was kind of like a drug she couldn't quite kick.  I really didn't feel sorry for Oliver due to anything Laurel said to him.  He absolutely deserved that and multiple crotch stompings with spiked shoes.  I said pre-Island Oliver was a shitty person, but it's more accurate to say that pre-Felicity Oliver was a shitty person.  Oliver playacted toward everyone around him, manipulating them like chess pieces.  He initially only brought in John Diggle because he wanted an extra helper monkey.  While he made a couple of begrudging concession toward going after people not on The List, it was really only after Felicity became part of Team Arrow that Oliver began to make real strides toward being a better person and becoming a true hero.

Like I said, I never felt too bad for Oliver.  Mostly because whenever Laurel made some kind of hurtful comment he didn't seem any more upset than he would if anyone else made the same comment.  It certainly didn't seem like he was deeply hurt that the woman he supposedly loved hated him.  Also, yeah, he was terrible to Laurel pre-island.   Part of the reason I didn't feel sorry for Laurel was because I didn't understand why she wanted to be with Oliver at all, pre or post-island.  He never treated her well.  The main reason though, was the way she treated Tommy.  

1 hour ago, ladylaw99 said:

I never believed the Tommy and LL relationship either. All I saw was LL swapping one rich bf for another. I never believed she cared about Tommy, all I saw was her trying to see if Oliver would get jealous and in turn I saw Oliver not give too sh$ts until plot required him to.  Now it has been years but that's how I remember it.

I see some similarities in Tommy/Laurel and Laurel/Oliver, mainly in the way Tommy had to work so hard to get Laurel to be in a relationship with him the same way Laurel had to work to convince Oliver to move in together (or at least, pretend to agree to move in together).  As I recall, Tommy and Laurel started as a couple one night stands, then Tommy had to talk her into actually dating him, then he had to get Oliver to talk her into giving him a drawer at her place.  To me, it didn't seem like Laurel really wanted to be with Tommy any more than Oliver seemed to wanted to be with her.  I thought both situations made Tommy and Laurel look kind of pathetic.  

The reason I felt sorry for Tommy and not Laurel was because Tommy was never all wishy-washy about who he wanted to be with.

[Mellowyellow]

It's hard to imagine that the same writers who write Laurel also write Felicity. One has so much dignity, the other none.

It was heartbreaking when Felicity told Oliver she loved him but couldn't settle for anything less than his full trust. Self respect is a good thing to have!

[statsgirl]

Oliver revealed that his secret to Diggle in order to save his life after he was hit by one of Deadshot's bullets.  I think he asked Diggle to join him partly because he trusted him, partly because he did want a brother in arms, but also partly because he sensed that Diggle needed a mission of his own now that his tours of duty were over.

Oliver brought Diggle on board in ep  1x04.  In 1x06 he was getting Oliver to pay the hospital bills of the cop that was shot and go after the Royal Flush gang who were not on the list.  Of course more outside-the-list stuff happened after Felicity joined but it started with Diggle.

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

I felt sorry for Tommy and at least somewhat sorry for Laurel.  I think she and Tommy really loved each other but the Oliver was kind of like a drug she couldn't quite kick.

Laurel couldn't kick Oliver but it didn't have for me any of the passion a drug implies.  He was her five year plan:  Oliver Queen's girlfriend; law school; move in together; marriage; Queen matron and society leader.   She was in love with the idea of being with him. And she was going to overcome any problems through force of will.

Poor Tommy.  Laurel put him in the "hanger-on" box, the consolation prize when she didn't get Oliver.  She said she was going to fight for her relationship with him but that lasted only until she learned Oliver was still interested and then it was "Tommy who? "

[Starfish35]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

Laurel couldn't kick Oliver but it didn't have for me any of the passion a drug implies.  He was her five year plan:  Oliver Queen's girlfriend; law school; move in together; marriage; Queen matron and society leader.   She was in love with the idea of being with him. And she was going to overcome any problems through force of will.

All that is true I think.  But there's also a level of obsession there, mostly unintentionally, just by the way KC played it and then the writers throwing in that deadbed retcon.  Once Laurel finds out Oliver's secret, it's all back to heart eyes (the season three premiere), pushing her way onto the team, and getting resentful when he doesn't appreciate it/appreciate her like she thinks he should.   For whatever reason, Laurel just was never able to move on from Oliver, even when he did.  The BTS reasons for that we know, but figuring out an in-show motivation.... *shrug*  It never made sense that Laurel should be with Oliver anyway.  A motivated driven Type-A personality like her shouldn't have given a loser playboy like him the time of day.  Sara....yeah.  Party girl Sara - it's easy to see how she could have gotten sucked into his orbit.  But we never got a good explanation for what attracted Laurel to Oliver in the first place, and the few things we do know don't put her in a very good light.  

[johntfs]

42 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

It never made sense that Laurel should be with Oliver anyway.  A motivated driven Type-A personality like her shouldn't have given a loser playboy like him the time of day.  Sara....yeah.  Party girl Sara - it's easy to see how she could have gotten sucked into his orbit.

Except that brings up another weird thing which is that Laurel (and Sara to a lesser extent) was always in his orbit.  They grew up together, went to school together.  It was her, Oliver and Tommy as besties.  Which was kind of weird because how does Laurel, a kid from a middle class background, end up hanging out with trust-fund babies like Oliver and Tommy?  Even if she was a scholarship kid, she's going to end up shoved in with other scholarship kids.  You'd think that Oliver, as an eventual superhero would befriend her and Tommy as his best friend, would go along with it, but Oliver was a pretty shitty adult, so he probably was also a pretty shitty kid, too.

The story I have in my head is that Laurel functioned as their tutor and she was kind of Hermione to their Ron and Harry.  Figure the Queens liked her because she was Type-A responsible and was helping Oliver pass his classes.  I suspect as well that the Queens overlooked her less wealthy background, saw she loved their son and figured that when they were married Oliver would be getting a lifetime babysitter and thus be less likely to die of a coke overdose in the company of a couple of Thai hookers who were probably not genetically female.

Edited June 5, 2017 by johntfs

[LeighAn]

Honestly I don't buy Laurel as the brainiac type A personality. Type As are people like your Blair Waldorfs or your Tracy Flicks or your Charlottes from Sex and the City. Type As are competitive workaholics driven ambitious organised meticulous and are planners. It just doesn't scream Laurel to me. Or at least she's not a very successful type A haha.

To me Ray Palmer is probably by far a more Type A personality then Laurel. Nothing about how Laurel chose and went about becoming a vigilante speaks to a Type A personality to me. Oliver post five years away was probably closer to a type A personality for me TBH.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Yeah I think the anger was understandable even tho it was a bad choice for a first scene at that intensity and actors with chemistry could have probably saved it.

The anger was always understandable but yeah, for a first scene, it was a bad choice.  Maybe they could have flipped their script and instead of starting the episode with her mad and ending it offering to be someone he can talk to, they could have started it with her TRYING to be forgiving and willing to listen and ending the episode with Oliver doing something (like stand her up or something) to trigger her temper and at that point if it came layered (I know, too much to ask) with pain and sorrow, we'd be able to be more on her side.  Plus when the next episode opened with her at the courthouse, the scene would have made sense.  

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

All that is true I think.  But there's also a level of obsession there, mostly unintentionally, just by the way KC played it and then the writers throwing in that deadbed retcon.  Once Laurel finds out Oliver's secret, it's all back to heart eyes (the season three premiere), pushing her way onto the team, and getting resentful when he doesn't appreciate it/appreciate her like she thinks he should.   For whatever reason, Laurel just was never able to move on from Oliver, even when he did.  The BTS reasons for that we know, but figuring out an in-show motivation.... *shrug*  It never made sense that Laurel should be with Oliver anyway.  A motivated driven Type-A personality like her shouldn't have given a loser playboy like him the time of day.  Sara....yeah.  Party girl Sara - it's easy to see how she could have gotten sucked into his orbit.  But we never got a good explanation for what attracted Laurel to Oliver in the first place, and the few things we do know don't put her in a very good light.  

I kind of wonder if her new devotion was partly about being right.  She'd dated Ollie when it seemed everyone around her kept pointing out how terrible a choice she was making, but she was determined to see her envisioned life unfold only for that to blow up in her face in a truly spectacular fashion.  And she then made a similar mistake, thinking she was going to have this life with Oliver only to realize the real love in her life was from Tommy, not Oliver.  (And season four flashback retcon or not, by season two, she was convinced Tommy was her lost love).  But then she finds out that Oliver is not just this schmuck she kept choosing, he was THE ARROW!!!  He was special and by choosing him and supporting him in the past, it made her more special for having done it.  It probably doesn't explain everything, but maybe it's at least a layer of her motivation.   

[statsgirl]

ITA about why Oliver's parents liked Laurel, that she would babysit him and maybe someday push him into being the corporate man his parents wanted. 

Both Robert and Moira had terrible parenting skills. It took Oliver coming back from the island to tell Moira that she should be parenting Thea better.  But they were also very wealthy and if they wanted Oliver to have a tutor, it wouldn't be a peer tutor in his school, it would be a PhD professor (not graduate student) from a local university.

Dinah Lance taught university -- she would value education and make sure her daughters got the best education possible.  Sara didn't meet Oliver until she was a teenager so I figure that Laurel got into the fancy prep school in grade 9 which is an entrance year for many private schools (meaning that there was a new class added to the grade so that there would be available places).

I don't think that Laurel is a brainiac type A like Caitlin is (I think Ray is more a type B) but she is focused and determined to reach her goals.  Someone with Laurel's ambition and ego wouldn't hang out with the scholarship kids, she'd go to her real place in the pecking order with the trust fund babies.  She would have looked down on the scholarship kids the way she looked down on Felicity till midseason 3 when the show decided that they were suddenly friends. As Felicity said "Are we favor friends now?" when Laurel told her to get information on the girlfriend-beater when she decided that she was going to take the law into her own hands and be the justice criminals couldn't run from.

Even in season 4 she was still pulling the entitled card in terms of her place in the world, angry at Oliver that he wasn't treating her as his equal when he had nine years of training and fighting and she had only had one and was a wild card in terms of decision-making to boot.

Edited June 5, 2017 by statsgirl

[johntfs]

50 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But they were also very wealthy and if they wanted Oliver to have a tutor, it wouldn't be a peer tutor in his school, it would be a PhD professor (not graduate student) from a local university.

Yeah, but figure Oliver would just blow that person off, whereas maybe Oliver would be more likely to want to do well and justify Laurel's continued presence.  As far as not hanging with the scholarship kids, that's not really her choice.  Laurel's not going to be wearing the designer labels or have the latest and best of everything because her folks just couldn't swing that on their salarys (my father was a university professor and we sure as shit weren't living the high life).  I doubt cops do much better.  So either Tommy and Oliver just deliberately pulled Laurel into their clique or something else happened to get her in.

[Mellowyellow]

I can't see Laurel tutoring anyone because I don't see Laurel as being particularly bright academically.

She never understood what the nerds were geeking over whenever they had the crossovers. She was never shown to have much general knowledge etc

[Midnight Lullaby]

I  could see Oliver's parents hoping Laurel would help him become more responsible (like she was) and also stay by his side and be a discreet and forgiving wife even if Oliver kept screwing everyone in a skirt. They were planning for Oliver the same life they were living. It's really sad to me that they didn't want more for their child but I guess they thought being what the society expected them to be was more important than being happy.

I felt bad for both Tommy and Laurel up to a point..they both knew deep down the object of their obsession didn't love them like they did but didn't love themselves enough to accept that and move on. Oliver didn't treat Laurel right and Laurel didn't treat Tommy right but from the conversation between Sara and Laurel in the FBs Laurel was well aware of Oliver's behavior and Tommy spent the whole first season jealous of Oliver. You can't force someone to love you and sure, both Oliver and Laurel should have been better people and stop leading Laurel and Tommy on but also have some dignity..

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 

I don't think that Laurel is a brainiac type A like Caitlin is (I think Ray is more a type B) but she is focused and determined to reach her goals.  Someone with Laurel's ambition and ego wouldn't hang out with the scholarship kids, she'd go to her real place in the pecking order with the trust fund babies.  She would have looked down on the scholarship kids the way she looked down on Felicity till midseason 3 when the show decided that they were suddenly friends. As Felicity said "Are we favor friends now?" when Laurel told her to get information on the girlfriend-beater when she decided that she was going to take the law into her own hands and be the justice criminals couldn't run from.

Yeah, I could see this. She was a beautiful, ambitious girl so I think she wouldn't have had issues fitting in the group of popular kids..sort of like Lindsay Lohan's character in Mean Girls.

I think she would have had more issues if she was a tutor because she might have been deemed too studious by rich kids that didn't really have to work to pass the grade. I also can't picture her as a tutor because of how judgmental she is.

[johntfs]

56 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yeah, I could see this. She was a beautiful, ambitious girl so I think she wouldn't have had issues fitting in the group of popular kids..sort of like Lindsay Lohan's character in Mean Girls.

Now that it comes down to it, I can see this too.  She could fit in with the "mean girls" without quite being one herself.

[Morrigan2575]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

But back to the topic at hand: I think both kinds of couples - powered/normal and powered/powered - can work and be interesting in different ways. However, literal power couples are much rarer, so it's harder to provide an example of a good one.

Maybe in DC world, not in Marvel

The First Family of Marvel (Fantastic Four) Sue and Reed Richards

Inhumans - Medusa/Blackbolt, Crystal/QuickSilver

Avengers - Hawkeye/Mockingbird (Marvel's answer to GA/BC), Scarlet Witch/Vision, Captain America/Agent 13 

X-Men - Cyclops/Jean Grey, Gambit/Rogue, Storm/Black Panther, Storm/Wolverine, Multiple Man/Siren, Cable/Domino, Deadpool/Copy Cat, ShadowCat/Colossus, Havok/Polaris, and probably many more that I'm forgetting.

What's interesting is that Marvel is more willing to follow normal relationship patterns. Character date/breakup/move on, the get married/divorced, have kids/lose kids (poor Siren/Multiple Man).

Edited June 5, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Mellowyellow]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Maybe in DC world, not in Marvel

The First Family of Marvel (Fantastic Four) Sue and Reed Richards

Inhumans - Medusa/Blackbolt, Crystal/QuickSilver

Avengers - Hawkeye/Mockingbird (Marvel's answer to GA/BC), Scarlet Witch/Vision, Captain America/Agent 13 

X-Men - Cyclops/Jean Grey, Gambit/Rogue, Storm/Black Panther, Storm/Wolverine, Multiple Man/Siren, Cable/Domino, Deadpool/Copy Cat, ShadowCat/Colossus, Havok/Polaris, and probably many more that I'm forgetting.

What's interesting is that Marvel is more willing to follow normal relationship patterns. Character date/breakup/move on, the get married/divorced, have kids/loose kids (poor Siren/Multiple Man).

Are these in comics???? I thought the movie threw in Captain America and Agent 13 for the fun of it. 

I didn't know Hawkeye was supposed to be with Mockingbird. He had like a dozen kids with some lady in the movie! 

[Morrigan2575]

31 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Are these in comics???? I thought the movie threw in Captain America and Agent 13 for the fun of it. 

I didn't know Hawkeye was supposed to be with Mockingbird. He had like a dozen kids with some lady in the movie! 

The movies did it because of comics. It's one of my biggest objections to the kiss in Civil War, there was no reason for it, in the movies, except that in comics Captain America/Agent 13 were a longterm relationship.

Scarlett Witch/Vision were a Major pairings in the comics.  Although comics Wonda is way more mentally unstable then in the movies.

Hawkeye/Mockingbird were a major pairing and they even copied GA/BC in timing. They married and divorced around the same them as GA/BC.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

In movies did it because of comics. It's one of my biggest objections to the kiss in Civil War, there was no reason for it, in the movies except that in comics Captain America/Agent 13 were a longterm relationship.

Scarlett Witch/Vision were a Major pairings in the comics.  Although comics Wonda is way more mentally unstable then in the movies.

Hawkeye/Mockingbird were a major pairing and they even copied GA/BC in timing. They married and divorced around the same them as GA/BC.

That is a major revelation for me! I thought there was something there in the movie that I couldn't put my finger on. Haha I thought it was just my crazy shippy self being shippy about stuff!!!!!

[Morrigan2575]

13 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

That is a major revelation for me! I thought there was something there in the movie that I couldn't put my finger on. Haha I thought it was just my crazy shippy self being shippy about stuff!!!!!

Nah, they set that one up starting in Age of Ultron, it's one of the better attempts at a romantic pairing in the movies, IMO.

[ComicFan777]

To add to the list, some DC powered/powered pairings:
Hawkman & Hawkgirl
Aquaman & Mera
Nightwing & Batgirl/Oracle
Raven & Beastboy
Superboy & Wondergirl
Saturn girl & Lightning Lad

[OnceSane]

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

Oliver would be getting a lifetime babysitter and thus be less likely to die of a coke overdose in the company of a couple of Thai hookers who were probably not genetically female.

Does this mean that pre-island Oliver is the superhero version of Sterling Archer?

[johntfs]

No, it means that Sterling Archer is the superperson version of pre-island Oliver.

[Featherhat]

17 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Laurel couldn't kick Oliver but it didn't have for me any of the passion a drug implies.  He was her five year plan:  Oliver Queen's girlfriend; law school; move in together; marriage; Queen matron and society leader.   She was in love with the idea of being with him. And she was going to overcome any problems through force of will.

Including that FB scene where she literally blanks on the fact that Sara points out that Ollie isn't ready to settle down and they both know loads of girls that he slept with. She's not practicing being a discreet Moira type or saying "he'll grow up when we're living together" or even saying "it's worth it to be Mrs Ollie Queen", she looks like she can't process anything that isn't in her 5 year plan (and seriously Ollie wasn't going to be ready for marriage after 1 year of living together as she was planning) she then turned around and attacked Sara for not being happy and supportive of her. She's really not seeing Ollie the person there, just as she never really say Oliver the person, even when she found out he was the Arrow. The closest I come to that is "golddigger who's keeping her eyes on the prize" which I don't think was supposed to be the case, even though she textually probably wanted to be a Moira (and Moira would have been happy with that) but KC's line reading is so weird there. But seriously that scene....Laurel's planning the wedding whilst Sara's sitting at the other end of the sofa planning a naughty sex cruise. Ugh. She really comes across as knowing Ollie better than Laurel, she doesn't have any illusions about him, which isn't a compliment because they were both shitty, hedonistic party people.

Moira really liked Laurel for obvious "she's responsible and might drag Oliver into growing up" reasons, but Robert's reaction to Sara on the Gambit is kinda ambiguous. He tells Ollie it's not going to end well for any of them (true) but then leaves the scene with a roll of his eyes and a smile. not a "when we get to Shanghai I'm putting her on a plane home and we're going to have a talk about what kind of man you should be and there are other (Undertaking) things we need to discuss." I know he was never parent of the year but as he himself pointed out Oliver is napalming his life (again). Not to mention he was on what he knew might be a dangerous and secret mission to stop Malcolm.

[leopardprint]

27 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

He tells Ollie it's not going to end well for any of them (true) but then leaves the scene with a roll of his eyes and a smile.

And Moira never even got on his case about his treatment of Laurel or Samantha in that flashback either! 

I have no idea what they were trying to do with this setup if even Oliver's parents were basically winking and nudging at his terrible treatment of Laurel. Wow. Such epic. Much love. 

Maybe they were deliberately trying to make that relationship so horrible so they could have an excuse to replace her as the LI? 

Edited June 5, 2017 by leopardprint

[Starfish35]

Well by season two they were actually dismantling the relationship, so they didn't have any reason not to present it in a negative light.  That being said, I'm not sure they realized quite how negative some of that would come across, like Oliver moping with his head in Laurel's lap about getting Samantha pregnant, while she cluelessly tries to cheer him up.  Ugh.  

[leopardprint]

8 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Well by season two they were actually dismantling the relationship, so they didn't have any reason not to present it in a negative light.  That being said, I'm not sure they realized quite how negative some of that would come across, like Oliver moping with his head in Laurel's lap about getting Samantha pregnant, while she cluelessly tries to cheer him up.  Ugh.  

To me there were several moments that came across like it was a joke, almost mocking Laurel, like that lap moment and Ollie accepting her picture while telling her sister to keep circling until she leaves. Maybe it just seems that way since nearly everyone knew he was cheating on her and she's putting together her dream wedding. 

Edited June 5, 2017 by leopardprint

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure how to take the season one stuff.  The pic...I think the pic was just a plot point, and they didn't quite realize how that would make her look. They needed Oliver to have that talisman to hold onto. 

But then later, her pushing him to get an apartment together in the face of his visible reluctance... *wince*  I don't know.

By season two, though, I think they'd moved on to actively torpedoing the relationship, so the scene with Laurel and Sara is meant to undermine the relationship.   

[Mellowyellow]

Was he ever jealous of Laurel and Tommy?

I'm watching s2 and s3 and enjoying the jealous scenes. Kinda weird because I feel like he was more jealous of Barry than Ray even though Ray was a much bigger threat. He was all gritted teeth even though all she did was beam at Barry.

And then the fit about her visiting Central City. 

Maybe he was just resigned to dying alone in s3.

[Midnight Lullaby]

The only emotion Oliver seemed capable of in S1 was anger imo. The jealous one was Tommy..and it made sense since when Oliver decided he wanted to be with her it took one second to convince her.

[SmallScreenDiva]

S2 was interesting because his feelings for Felicity were so new Oliver didn't really know how to handle them, IMO. So when Barry shows up and he just seems so perfect for Felicity and they spark right away, I think it throws off Oliver so he's growly and annoyed, but not so pissed he couldn't give Felicity what he thinks she wants (going to a party with Barry). With Season 3, he had it in his head to that he can't have her. He's angry with himself and jealous (almost took out the fern with his lair trantrum) but also kind of resigned to the fact that another guy will try to make her happy. 

[Mellowyellow]

@SmallScreenDiva I am so twisted. I watched all of the Olicity S3 scenes. Then I binged on S3 Raylicity scenes. And I LOVED it all. 

I wonder what Oliver would have done if she stuck with Ray (obviously she wouldn't because of he was a guest star and she was the Arrow leading lady etc). Laurel imo gave the impression she would have stuck around watching them have Olicitots and praying Felicity drops dead so she can get Oliver back again (haha much like the comic fans).

I wonder what Oliver would have done (Ras and LoA and villains aside). Sat around and watched them have Raylicitots while moping? Never speak to them again? Actually try not to die alone in the lair?

[Trini]

We kinda knew Oliver and Felicity were going to get together at some point, and Barry and Iris were going to get together at some point, but Barry and Felicity were so cute together when Barry showed up on Arrow, I really wished we got to see more than just one date/episode of them together. Too bad it was the season that they decided to set up Ray and his spinoff. (Even though I liked Ray/Felicity too.)

Edited June 5, 2017 by Trini

[Mellowyellow]

I thought Barry and Felicity were all kinds of squee worthy adorable but when they brought Ray in I really lost my sh@t because they were so damn cute and compatible.

And then there was Mayo in S5. Ick Ick Ick. They were doing so well with her temp LIs.

The party scene in s2 was really cute though where Oliver was forced to watch them dance at the party. One of the clips on YouTube claimed that he needed 2 drinks because of it. If that's true it's too cute and sits in line with her driving him to drink again in 519.

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Laurel imo gave the impression she would have stuck around watching them have Olicitots and praying Felicity drops dead so she can get Oliver back again (haha much like the comic fans).

I blame that all on KC. I wonder how thrilled she must have been when LL and Oliver mended fences in 405 because then she didn't have to play Laurel like she was constantly pissed off at Oliver anymore, and could start with the inappropriate face touching. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I blame that all on KC. I wonder how thrilled she must have been when LL and Oliver mended fences in 405 because then she didn't have to play Laurel like she was constantly pissed off at Oliver anymore, and could start with the inappropriate face touching. 

LOL inappropriate face touching. O/F were barely broken up before she started with that. Yikes.

On that note, why did Laurel tell Oliver he was the love of her life if she didn't think she was gonna die? Unless I'm misremembering, she was told she was gonna be fine so why would she even say all of that? Imagine if she had lived, she would have been awkwardly stuck on the team with the man she still loves who is in love with someone else she claimed was her friend. 

IDGI. What a mess!

Edited June 5, 2017 by Guest

[calliope1975]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

LOL inappropriate face touching. 

KC also had that weird reaction when Oliver touched her shoulder (arm?) at Digg and Lyla's wedding. I think we all thought it was because she was playing it as injured but then nope. 

[insomniadreams88]

12 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

LOL inappropriate face touching. O/F were barely broken up before she started with that. Yikes.

On that note, why did Laurel tell Oliver he was the love of her life if she didn't think she was gonna die? Unless I'm misremembering, she was told she was gonna be fine so why would she even say all of that? Imagine if she had lived, she would have been awkwardly stuck on the team with the man she still loves who is in love with someone else she claimed was her friend. 

IDGI. What a mess!

Yeah, I have no idea what the point of that entire deathbed scene was. They should have made it her actual deathbed instead of "oh, she's going to be fine." I still don't get the point of that considering the entire season was leading up to the flashforward of the grave. Did they think people would think she'd be fine and someone else would suddenly just drop dead? Weren't there only a couple minutes left in the episode? 

At least there could be some sort of understanding if Laurel knew she was going to die. She wanted to tell Oliver how she felt because she knew she would never have the chance again. Instead, it just ends up coming across as, "I think I'm going to live, so I'm just going to make things super awkward by telling you how I feel. And throw in something about Felicity at the same time because ... I don't know."

I think what also really hurt Laurel is KC going around in interviews calling Oliver her character's soulmate ... while he was engaged to Felicity. So I was watching the episodes with that in mind, and every time Laurel got close to Oliver after the breakup, I couldn't help but think she was making her move. And yes, that inappropriate face touching really didn't help.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, I have no idea what the point of that entire deathbed scene was. They should have made it her actual deathbed instead of "oh, she's going to be fine." I still don't get the point of that considering the entire season was leading up to the flashforward of the grave. Did they think people would think she'd be fine and someone else would suddenly just drop dead? Weren't there only a couple minutes left in the episode? 

At least there could be some sort of understanding if Laurel knew she was going to die. She wanted to tell Oliver how she felt because she knew she would never have the chance again. Instead, it just ends up coming across as, "I think I'm going to live, so I'm just going to make things super awkward by telling you how I feel. And throw in something about Felicity at the same time because ... I don't know."

I have a whole problem with her deathbed scene being with Oliver (I think it should've been with her dad) but I agree, I could somewhat understand her saying what she did if she knew she didn't have long left. Instead it just felt even more awkward and inappropriate. I still cringe to this day. Haha. Sorry!

[apinknightmare]

Even though the doctor told her she was going to be okay, Laurel knew she was dying IN HER BONES.

[strikera0]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I blame that all on KC. I wonder how thrilled she must have been when LL and Oliver mended fences in 405 because then she didn't have to play Laurel like she was constantly pissed off at Oliver anymore, and could start with the inappropriate face touching. 

I hate to play devil's advocate here, but maybe that was a stage direction in the script. 

[LeighAn]

Laurel telling Oliver he's the love of her life even though she didn't know she was going to die just was a super shady move and turned all those Oliver and Laurel moments leading up to her death from old friends bonding into the ex girlfriend taking advantage of the vunerable ex boyfriend and using his heart break to get an emotional in with him. Like in romantic comedy where there's always that ex character who when the couple are going through troubles or broken up swoops in and try's to win the girl or guy over by playing the "shoulder to cry on" angle.

I mean hypothetically if Laurel didn't die what did she think was going to happen after her confession? What was she expecting Oliver to do with that confession? If she did receive some indication Oliver was responsive to her would she act on it? If she were to act on it what does that say about her respect for and friendship with Felicity and her respect for the Teams dynamic?

[BkWurm1]

To be fair, while Laurel thought she was going to be fine when she made her confession, she had just had a near death experience.  That could prompt some confessions.  Still super awkward but I do think she did hope that telling him how she felt might mean he might start thinking of her again even as she hedged and said she hoped he and Felicity would make up.  She might as well have said, well, if that doesn't work out, I'll still be here waiting.  

[Mellowyellow]

I feel like she was angling to be that epic love of Oliver's life and dammnit she was going to hang around and try everything she could because maybe one day he was going to get over that pesky Felicity.

I always got the impression she was arrogant and had no idea how intense the Olicity relationship was. Or she knew it but dismissed it because she was going to land Oliver Queen any way she could. 

She probably would have accepted him even if he agreed to date her again but cried over Felicity every night. 

[leopardprint]

She was present at their engagement for crying out loud. Laurel, girl, have some dignity. Or don't, because you're dead. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

@SmallScreenDiva I am so twisted. I watched all of the Olicity S3 scenes. Then I binged on S3 Raylicity scenes. And I LOVED it all. 

Oliver jealous over Barry was cute, Oliver jealous over Ray was heartbreaking, IMO. "The Offer" is one of the most underrated Olicity episodes, I think. That's where Oliver & Felicity had that conversation about him becoming Ra's and that was just packed with tension. And then the flirty exchange later (with Oliver thanking Felicity, making that adorable grimace, Felicity sashaying sexily toward Oliver, calling him handsome) that actually ends rather painfully for Oliver when Ray interrupts them with a phone call. The look on Oliver's face when he sees who's calling Felicity is just ... damn.  

He gives Felicity a smile when she says she has to take the call, and they his eyes close the moment she walks away ...

[lemotomato]

SA's heartbroken face was really really effective in season 3. Even though I knew his misery was mostly self inflicted and due to his own stupid decisions, I felt sorry for him.

As opposed to season 5, when I just felt frustrated and angry at all the stupid things he did.

Edited June 6, 2017 by lemotomato

[Mellowyellow]

He looked grumpy and bored in S5. I resented him in S5 until he broke out the heart eyes and baby voice. 

S3 was tragic. He was going to hide in the lair and watch them have Raylicitots dammnit because he couldn't be Oliver Queen and the Arrow so he was going to pine for an eternity and look at her with his kicked puppy face. Dumb as hell but endearing.

[statsgirl]

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Was he ever jealous of Laurel and Tommy?

Until he decided to show up at Laurel's door, I didn't see any jealousy.

At the Christmas party when he essentially gave them his blessing, he seemed almost relieved.  Although maybe he was happy that the door was shut so he wasn't dreaming of a happy ending that he couldn't have because he had to right his father's wrongs.  

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

She really comes across as knowing Ollie better than Laurel, she doesn't have any illusions about him, which isn't a compliment because they were both shitty, hedonistic party people.

See, I don't think even this is true.  As I recall things, Oliver doesn't really seem to enjoy partying all that much.  I think the whole thing with Sara and the cruise was Oliver's way of blowing up everyone's plans for him.  They'd have the cruise, come back and of course Sara wouldn't keep her mouth shut, so the whole thing would come out, the wedding would be off and Laurel, Mom and Dad's five year plan would be ashes.  I think at that point Oliver didn't know what he wanted, but he knew what he did not want.  If anything, it makes Oliver even shittier because it adds cruelty and cowardice.  Instead of confronting the people in his life with the fact that he didn't want any part of their plans, he was going to use Sara like a bomb to blow up the plans and let her take the blame for it.

[statsgirl]

I'm pretty sure that the blame would have been spread over both Oliver and Sara but then Laurel would have forgiven him again and the wedding, which existed pretty much only in her mind at this point, would be on again.

Oliver didn't know what he wanted but he also didn't know how to fight against what he didn't want which at this point was to move in with Laurel much less marry her.  Thanks to Robert and Moira's sterling parenting, he had learned to take the path of least resistance and then he would get what he wanted.  Didn't want to go to college?  Play hooky and either drop out of fail out and then he had the rest of the time off until they paid off the next college to enroll him in.  If I had dropped out of a college and hadn't told my parents, I'd be rowing that boat to China.  But Robert and Moira shrugged it off and let Oliver get on the boat with Robert.  And when Robert found out Sara was there, all he said was that this wasn't going to end well for any of the three of them instead of finding the nearest port and putting both Oliver and Sara on a plane homeward bound with Sara's parents waiting at the other end.

I don't think Oliver deliberately asked Sara on the trip to blow up his relationship with Laurel.  He was just looking for a good time while he was on the boat with his father. The Lances probably thought Sara was back at school or visiting a friend so they wouldn't necessarily have found out.  But if Lauren did find out and it blew up his relationship with her again temporarily and she put a stop to the moving-in together plan for the moment (because I don't think she was ever going to give up on marrying Oliver), well that was a bonus.

I don't think Oliver ever had to do a thing that he didn't want to do until Yao Fei made him kill that bird so he wouldn't starve.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

See, I don't think even this is true.  As I recall things, Oliver doesn't really seem to enjoy partying all that much.  I think the whole thing with Sara and the cruise was Oliver's way of blowing up everyone's plans for him.  They'd have the cruise, come back and of course Sara wouldn't keep her mouth shut, so the whole thing would come out, the wedding would be off and Laurel, Mom and Dad's five year plan would be ashes.  I think at that point Oliver didn't know what he wanted, but he knew what he did not want.  If anything, it makes Oliver even shittier because it adds cruelty and cowardice.  Instead of confronting the people in his life with the fact that he didn't want any part of their plans, he was going to use Sara like a bomb to blow up the plans and let her take the blame for it.

I don't think post Island Oliver likes partying much except with close friends, but pre Island Ollie certainly had a reputation for it, even if only because he was young, bored, fuck off wealthy and selfish. No one is surprised when he hosts 2 blow out parties within weeks of returning home, Tommy gives him a laundry list of activity options to "reintroduce" Oliver to Starling nightlife, including eating sushi off naked models, he opens Verdant because that's a good cover story for his old persona and the news footage in the pilot shows every playboy cliché.

Also in the pilot (repeated in S2ep5 with CL) Ollie says "your sister will never know..." Obviously that was wishful thinking because a weekend on the yacht might be hidden a several weeks trip to China is less easy. I'm not sure he was *consciously* trying to sabotage his relationship with Laurel, although just about everyone he tells the story to points out sleeping with your girlfriend's sister *is* a sure way to blow things up. It was cruel and cowardly but I don't think it was part of a conscious "tell Laurel I want to break up without the ugly confrontation, because the blow up when they got back from this trip would be worse.

24 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

If I had dropped out of a college and hadn't told my parents, I'd be rowing that boat to China.  But Robert and Moira shrugged it off and let Oliver get on the boat with Robert.  And when Robert found out Sara was there, all he said was that this wasn't going to end well for any of the three of them instead of finding the nearest port and putting both Oliver and Sara on a plane homeward bound with Sara's parents waiting at the other end.

This so much, it was another one of Robert's non reactions to Ollie doing his best to ruin his life again. Even Moira (lady who tried to get Oliver to join QC 2 days after he got back from a not so deserted island) didn't react. No wonder pre Island Ollie is a useless lump in so many ways and when he finally learns how to do something himself from Yao Fei, Slade and later Shado, he looks so damned surprised and proud of himself. It's the first time in his life he's achieved something that hasn't been bought, because his billions are less than useless on the Island. I think Robert had been planning on telling Ollie Malcolm's plan but that doesn't excuse not putting Sara on the nearest plane home, except that maybe he was in a hurry to meet with Frank Chen and didn't want to call attention to the trip, which was why he was taking the Gambit in the first place.

 

31 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The Lances probably thought Sara was back at school or visiting a friend so they wouldn't necessarily have found out.  But if Lauren did find out and it blew up his relationship with her again temporarily and she put a stop to the moving-in together plan for the moment (because I don't think she was ever going to give up on marrying Oliver), well that was a bonus.

Sara calls Quentin from the boat so he definitely thinks she's in school and Sara must have been AWOL (and probably about to flunk out if she was missing several weeks work). Yeah I don't think Laurel was going to give up her plans with Oliver. She didn't seem to care that he was reacting to moving in together like she was telling him he needed to go to the dentist or when he was actively laughing at her in another FB. She was still willing to be with Oliver when she was actively blaming him for her sister's death and the fact that she was internationally humiliated and couldn't either properly grieve or be angry at her sister. She'd probably stay angrier at Sara but "forgive" Ollie, although he may not have been in the "beg for forgiveness/make it right" mood he was post Island if everything had gone to plan and he was at college no 5 in a few weeks time.