Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

I wonder if at the start of season 6 when they reset the show, he'll be allowed to keep his season 5 growth or if we have to do this all over again every year.

[kismet]

I loved reading this conversation. I know I watched the winter finale, because I remember FS crying alone and everyone comforting OQ. But honestly, I don't remember most of these scenes with Susan. I guess I should be mad with OQ for making bad decisions or for the writers for being craptastic and mundane. However, I find that I am just kinda MEH about the whole thing. It was needed for PLOT that he hook up with Susan in this episode, but obviously not sleep with her (silly me for reading in between the lines). The funny thing about PLOT for PLOT is that it is the least emotionally compelling & memorable. It's the equivalent of a midday snack, takes the edge off the hunger but never satisfies it. Which is why its weeks later and I barely even remember Susan being in the episode nevermind some pivotal manpain pity party scene.

FTR - I think a lot of you have suggested better ways they could have handled the scene. From putting it in the graveyard, to changing the wardrobe. It could have involved Susan or involved another person. Her being part of it, was only part of the problem. How the writers & SA even handle OQ's characterization is the problem. The solutions to fix the problems are pretty obvious. But I am no longer the target or desired audience, so what I think probably doesn't matter. I value relationships, the writers value PLOT. I'm not sure we will ever find middle ground again. We can find many ways to fix the problems. The major question is, does it even matter? You can dress up snacks, but at the end of the day I want a meal and not a snack.

[Sunshine]

9 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Antonio Negret is one of their best directors but he deserves blame not only in that scene but the lair scene before it when everyone went to comfort Oliver while only Thea and only for a couple of seconds thought about Felicity.  He could have made it much better by having Diggle or Rory think about Felicity too instead of everyone only being about Oliver manpain.

Late to the game but is it possible the lair scene was scripted and not just a directing choice?  Everyone take one step forward at the same time to show solidarity for vigilantism. This comes immediately after Digg said something about being right where they should be in response to Oliver looking at Curtis, Rory and Rene and saying they should get as far away from him as possible.  This is they life they are choosing in spite of the risks.   Minority of one but I didn't really see it as comforting Oliver so much as reaffirming their choices.        

[way2interested]

Just now, Sunshine said:

Late to the game but is it possible the lair scene was scripted and not just a directing choice?  Everyone take one step forward at the same time to show solidarity for vigilantism. This comes immediately after Digg said something about being right where they should be in response to Oliver looking at Curtis, Rory and Rene and saying they should get as far away from him as possible.  This is they life they are choosing in spite of the risks.   Minority of one but I didn't really see it as comforting Oliver so much as reaffirming their choices.        

Visual shots are a combo of writing, acting, and directing where, unless specified in the script or completely ad-libbed by the actor, the majority of the execution (at least visually and editing-wise) lies on the director. If the script specified everyone moving towards Oliver, which it totally could have, then there's still a way to frame it better (making all of the actors closer, framing it as close-ups between characters to not make the awkward shaped circle so awkward and open, etc.). I think it was mostly a mess-up on writing and directing (moving too quickly through the scene writing-wise and trying to make a group shot to show solidarity, which in theory should work, but instead looked kind of awkward). Sorry, I realized the original post you replied to was regarding the scene in general but I kind of just took it from the stuff I noticed that bothered me. 

But, yeah, the lair scene itself is up to the writers, even if the director could add in a small change or two. And I agree with the way you saw it, more of reaffirming than comforting (although reaffirming could be comforting in Oliver's case, that's not how I saw it). It was just too rushed, but I still liked the scene.

[statsgirl]

It didn't even work as reaffirming -- because Oliver went straight to Susan to get some more "reaffirmation".

There's usually a writer on set so she could have changed things there if she wanted to.  I think it's like Roy geting electrocuted by Ray and left in the puddle as Oliver and Ray leave together; something they didn't realize how bad it looked until they started getting Viewer feedback.  Not precisely their fault but they still don't get a pass for it.

[BkWurm1]

14 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

Personally, I think it's borderline sociopathic behavior...it boils down to sexual arousal after accidental murder...it's so messed up...

 

Let me preface this by saying I thought the optics of how the episode ended was terrible and hated being shown Oliver finding solace while everyone else's life was shown falling apart and I think the choice to go to Susan for anything from the start has made zero sense.  

But Oliver kissing her isn't borderline sociopathic behavior.  Even if he did have sex with her, he's not getting aroused by accidental murder or getting turned on by death.  He's getting turned on by hormones and touch and proximity to boobies just like any other time in his life.   There's nothing sick or twisted going on.  

It is very normal for people to react to traumatic experiences with sex.  It's the whole reaffirming life thing.  Yes it's about making yourself feel better, but the vast majority of people are not getting their fetish triggered.  

It's also about setting aside for a while the horror and not thinking.  It's not so unheard of for someone to use physical activity of any kind as a distraction from what's running around in one's head.  And Oliver is the king of compartmentalization.

So sure, Susan seems to me like an insult and comes off to me like all the lives he's sad about ruining don't really matter because he now can get his comfort from Susan, but that's more about me and my hatred for what the writers have done with Oliver.  Oliver is merely super sad and feels like he shouldn't be burdening his friends and co workers but at the same time when she offers comfort, he takes it 'cause he doens't want to feel this miserable.  

Again, I hate the set up, but Oliver isn't betraying anyone or trying to hurt anyone or outing himself as some sick pervert.  He's just sad and lost and yes, deeply stupid for even fraternizing with Susan.  But he's not being deliberately cruel or thoughtless.  Yes, he is thinking of himself, so by that framing, he is being selfish, but everyone else is who is off hurting or in trouble remains so with or without him at Rayporter's abode.  He being there isn't making it worse for the rest of his team.  

Maybe there is more he could do to make it better for the people being hurt,  and I would have loved to see that, but I can accept that he wasn't mentally strong enough to be there for anyone else yet without deciding he's a horrible human being or sick in the head.  

The ending is deserving of all the complaints, but I don't think Oliver is.  

[lemotomato]

I feel like everyone accusing Oliver of being a psycho for accepting comfort from Susan has never heard of the concept of grief sex. 

[catrox14]

Susan is the issue for me, not him seeking comfort in general. But IMO given that he just killed someone that Felicity cared about, that sort of takes grief sex off the table IMO. He was devastated to have killed an innocent person and was incredibly worried about destroying the lives of everyone around him. I guess to me he would be more inclined to find solace in a casual hookup with a stranger vs this woman who is kind of sort not really his maybe possible fling as well as being a reporter with a  known issue  with  Thea. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by catrox14

[insomniadreams88]

My problem is also he says he ruins the lives of those around him, and guess what? He went to a woman who almost had his sister resigning from her job and possibly ruining her professional life. (Right? I'm remembering that correctly, right?) Maybe the show shouldn't have been pushing how important Thea is to Oliver all this time and then had him date Susan after what she did (and can still do). 

[calliope1975]

At this point, even Starling City is like, uh yeah, I don't want to be a city you love. May I introduce you to my friend, Hub City?

[BkWurm1]

12 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

My problem is also he says he ruins the lives of those around him, and guess what? He went to a woman who almost had his sister resigning from her job and possibly ruining her professional life. (Right? I'm remembering that correctly, right?) Maybe the show shouldn't have been pushing how important Thea is to Oliver all this time and then had him date Susan after what she did (and can still do). 

What was the purpose of putting Susan on Thea's $hit list??  Seriously, I can't figure it out.  It's not just so that the audience knows she's shady, that's accomplished by her looking into his Bratva past.  Why was it important that we heard that Thea hates her and have both she and Lance on record telling Oliver that he should not date her?  Either they will be right or Oliver will be right in trusting her but even if Oliver is right, he still will look not like he made a good choice, just that he lucked out.  Why make Oliver look extra dumb when he didn't have to?  

Edited January 12, 2017 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

Grief sex to me implies seeking comfort from someone you care about and someone who cares about you.  If he had gone to Sara or McKenna Hall, I could see it as grief sex.   He could have gone to Thea or Rory.  Or even Curtis or (ugh) Rene.   But he went to someone he knows only very superficially and even what he knows isn't all good.  (Also it's not really grief because he didn't have warm fuzzy feelings for Malone.  It would be "I hate myself" sex.)

Psychopathology is characterized by a lack of empathy, possibly caused by lack of activity in the fusiform and extrastriate cortical regions, meaning an inability to connect with the emotions of others.  To put it crudely, I'm shocked he could get it up after what he did if he felt that badly as we are supposed to believe. I expected him, if not trying to reach out to people he was connected with, to want to be alone as he was after Moira's death.  Instead he went to a woman he barely knew but who he knew was physically attracted to him.

How would it have been if Oliver had gone to a prostitute instead?  Because that's about how well he knows Susan except he knows she was trying to get the dirt on him and stabbed Thea in the back in the process so really, going to a prostitute would have been smarter.  Seeking to make himself feel better by going to a woman he barely knows and who he couldn't be honest to in his pity party makes it all about him and his feelings, not about the feelings of those he hurt.  Hence the suggestion of psychopathy.

Edited January 12, 2017 by statsgirl

[lemotomato]

28 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But he went to someone he knows only very superficially and even what he knows isn't all good.

He didn't go to Susan looking for sex. He was wracked with guilt and stupidly went to her for a shoulder to cry on, but she initiated the kiss with him. If anything, she's the one taking advantage of him while he was emotionally vulnerable, possibly drunk, and not thinking clearly. 

Actually I don't know why we're even talking about sex that wasn't shown on screen, and that WM has gone on record saying didn't happen off screen either.

Edited January 12, 2017 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

22 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Grief sex to me implies seeking comfort from someone you care about and someone who cares about you.  If he had gone to Sara or McKenna Hall, I could see it as grief sex.   He could have gone to Thea or Rory.  Or even Curtis or (ugh) Rene.   But he went to someone he knows only very superficially and even what he knows isn't all good.  (Also it's not really grief because he didn't have warm fuzzy feelings for Malone.  It would be "I hate myself" sex.)

Psychopathology is characterized by a lack of empathy, possibly caused by lack of activity in the fusiform and extrastriate cortical regions, meaning an inability to connect with the emotions of others.  To put it crudely, I'm shocked he could get it up after what he did if he felt that badly as we are supposed to believe. I expected him, if not trying to reach out to people he was connected with, to want to be alone as he was after Moira's death.  Instead he went to a woman he barely knew but who he knew was physically attracted to him.

How would it have been if Oliver had gone to a prostitute instead?  Because that's about how well he knows Susan except he knows she was trying to get the dirt on him and stabbed Thea in the back in the process so really, going to a prostitute would have been smarter.  Seeking to make himself feel better by going to a woman he barely knows and who he couldn't be honest to in his pity party makes it all about him and his feelings, not about the feelings of those he hurt.  Hence the suggestion of psychopathy.

I don't think Grief Sex is limited to someone you really care about or even limited to sorrow.  Just trauma.  But yeah, Susan would have been just an available body.  It's not great but it fits Oliver's regression this year.  Making poor choices and self sabotaging all fits.

Quote

To put it crudely, I'm shocked he could get it up after what he did if he felt that badly as we are supposed to believe.

Well, if the show runners are to be believed, maybe he couldn't? 

Otherwise, I guess we could speculate that he's either just that good at compartmentalizing or that he's so accustom to awful and horrible that we have to judge it on a sliding scale.  

[statsgirl]

28 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

He was wracked with guilt and stupidly went to her for a shoulder to cry on,

I think that's the part that I dislike the most.  If you're wracked with guilt for something you did, you shouldn't go to a stranger to cry on her shoulder, You should suck it up, accept the part that is your responsibility, and do better next time.  You don't go to someone you can't even be honest with to make yourself feel better because that's not accepting responsibility for your own actions, that's saying that it was unfair what happened to you and you deserve to feel better.. At least that's how I see it.

(I don't think he was drunk, he'd barely started on his first drink. Oliver Queen's liver is better than that.

Edited January 12, 2017 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

I think that's the part that I dislike the most.  If you're wracked with guilt for something you did, you shouldn't go to a stranger to cry on her shoulder, You should suck it up, accept the part that is your responsibility, and do better next time.  You don't go to someone you can't even be honest with to make yourself feel better because that's not accepting responsibility for your own actions, that's saying that it was unfair what happened to you and you deserve to feel better.. At least that's how I see it.

(I don't think he was drunk, he'd barely started on his first drink. Oliver Queen's liver is better than that.)

This is where I think they've regressed Oliver.  I think this is very season one of him.  Very island Oliver.  Maybe even season two Sara lunge Oliver.  But it shouldn't be season 5 Oliver.  I think I'm more saddened and disappointed than mad.  

[statsgirl]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Otherwise, I guess we could speculate that he's either just that good at compartmentalizing or that he's so accustom to awful and horrible that we have to judge it on a sliding scale.  

We know he is that good at compartmentalizing. And he is accustomed to awful and horrible, but is he so accustomed to it in himself?

Yeah, they regressed him too far.  It isn't season 1 Oliver, he was better than that, it's Russia flashbacks Oliver.

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Well we know he is that good at compartmentalizing. And he is accustomed to awful and horrible, but is he accustomed to it in himself?

I actually want to say yes, but just not so recently.  I can't help think of Tommy's death and the newly retconned Laurel kiss.  And before that, I think he didn't think he was really worth much of anything because of all the awful he'd done.  (Though honestly we never got to see the worst of it)

[insomniadreams88]

11 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Yeah, they regressed him too far.  It isn't season 1 Oliver, he was better than that, it's Russia flashbacks Oliver.

Maybe they got confused and instead of getting flashback Russia Oliver to the point we met him in the pilot, they're making present day Oliver match flashback Oliver? I don't know. But yeah, this is definitely too far. 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Maybe they got confused and instead of getting flashback Russia Oliver to the point we met him in the pilot, they're making present day Oliver match flashback Oliver? I don't know. But yeah, this is definitely too far. 

I don't think you are that far off.  Whatever happened to the lovely contrast?  This season the guy in the flashbacks should be as different as flashback island Ollie was to the Hood Guy.   

[EmilyBettFan]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

At this point, even Starling City is like, uh yeah, I don't want to be a city you love. May I introduce you to my friend, Hub City?

Star City (I will use female term for the place.)

"I don't want to be a woman that you love."

Edited January 12, 2017 by EmilyBettFan

[kismet]

It really did all go downhill when they dropped the -ling... It's probably on the same beach with Tommy, Moira, Roy & other Flarrowverse stars celebrating their clean break from the show before the writing took them down in a blaze of stupidity & FOR PLOTGIC.

[insomniadreams88]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

What was the purpose of putting Susan on Thea's $hit list??  Seriously, I can't figure it out.  It's not just so that the audience knows she's shady, that's accomplished by her looking into his Bratva past.  Why was it important that we heard that Thea hates her and have both she and Lance on record telling Oliver that he should not date her?  Either they will be right or Oliver will be right in trusting her but even if Oliver is right, he still will look not like he made a good choice, just that he lucked out.  Why make Oliver look extra dumb when he didn't have to?  

Yeah, I don't get this either. Maybe they had a different plan for Susan? All I know is that as soon as that aired, I wanted Thea's threat to become a reality. And especially since Thea has pretty much nothing else to do this season - at least so far - I want her to be right. Imagine if they hadn't gone the LI route with Susan and had instead focused on Thea vs. Susan, with Oliver firmly on his sister's side in the matter. That's what I had hoped for. 

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, I don't get this either. Maybe they had a different plan for Susan? All I know is that as soon as that aired, I wanted Thea's threat to become a reality. And especially since Thea has pretty much nothing else to do this season - at least so far - I want her to be right. Imagine if they hadn't gone the LI route with Susan and had instead focused on Thea vs. Susan, with Oliver firmly on his sister's side in the matter. That's what I had hoped for. 

I wouldn't have even needed Oliver firmly in Thea's corner. It would have been great if he had simply let her deal with Susan while he dealt with other things and people - the newbies, Prometheus, Chase, the Vigilante... My preferred scenario is Oliver putting the Susan issue in Thea's hands and having faith that she can handle it.

[kismet]

I think they are throwing in all these LIs to appeal to the audience segment that likes and enjoys romance. What they fail to realize is that not all romances are the same. People really responded to O/F because it felt authentic & truly organic - and most of that I think was unintentional. It's when they started writing to the romantic relationship that things got a little sloppy. Every year they throw is these random LIs for everyone and they just don't work because the audience is smart enough to know what is a real TV relationship and what is plot filler. And frankly their writing sucks when it comes to successful romantic relationships. How many LIs has TQ had? Just because you give someone a LI, that does not equal a plotline or even a worthwhile story. TQs whole purpose on the show can boil down to either stupid LI that betrays her, doing her brother's day job or boosting MM's SL. Nothing is truly ever about her and her journey.

Now they are doing it with FS. The majority of her SLs are now becoming about who she is dating. The woman is a freaking genius, why not write to that. Why not write about her getting her company back or making her own company? Why not write to her still adjusting to being able mobile? Maybe the chip has some malfunctions in it or maybe she still wants to make the chip for everyone? Why not have her help QL with his problems? But it's almost like because she is a female all things must related back to who she is sleeping with. Nothing is about her journey. S3 was all about promoting RP's SL & legacy. Her paralysis last season was all about Curtis & OQ. Her BF this year was all about OQ & evidence procurement. For once I would just like to see them actually allow her to have a SL that is about her.

I feel like the only reason LL got to have some SL outside of who she was dating was because they had trouble with KC and chemistry. And even those were pretty meh. The addiction one was really the only substantial one. After that she was just a plot facilitator. I also think they wanted to make LL still be hung up on OQ, which is disparaging to females. LL's journey should have been about more than her years old failed romance. But alas, it was not.

Arrow used to be better with females. I don't know what has happened in the writers room the last few years.

[LeighAn]

Im still in giving them a chance mode for Felicitys upcoming storyline but totally not naive to them basically paying lip service to her as a character since theyve half hearted her storylines in the past. 

[kismet]

27 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Im still in giving them a chance mode for Felicitys upcoming storyline but totally not naive to them basically paying lip service to her as a character since theyve half hearted her storylines in the past. 

I said the same thing last year about her paralysis storyline, and got immensely burned. I respect that you want to support them and give them the benefit of the doubt. For your sake, I hope they don't betray your trust in them.

I just can't believe that they have their female characters best interest at heart anymore. I think they see them as paperdolls & Barbies to throw pretty outfits on and make then act out their little boy fantasies which are nothing to do with the actual characters. If given the chance between actual female character development and anything else, they will choose anything else every time and double down on the worst parts of that choice.

[rtalive]

On 1/11/2017 at 6:27 PM, CooperTV said:

No, manpain has specific definition, which is when a character's feelings, his emotional responses to anything surrounding (as those characters are usually white men or white men in position of privilege), his struggle are valued more by narrative than feelings, emotional responses or struggles of everyone else (usually women, minorities, children, etc). Characters with manpain are shown to be prioritize their angst over someone's suffering. Examples to manpain are:

a) "my wife was raped, whatever shall I do, I feel so much pain and anguish, how will I cope".

or

b) "my fiancee was paralyzed by an evil man, my enemy, I'm going to smash some evil dudes heads together because that makes me feel better, and my paralyzed fiancee will say it's okay for me to go AWOL at this tiring time for me";

c) "I accidentally kill my friend's and ex-fiancee's boyfriend, whatever shall I do, how one person can suffer so much in their life, I can't deal with this feelings anymore, I'm gonna have sex with that lady I first met five minutes ago to make myself feel better".

Ok , so if a white man feels shitty about something bad, that happened to a person, who he cares about, it is a man pain. I am sorry, but this is really difficult for me to understand. Is this just a slang for movies, tv, books or it is used in real life situations too.

Because if this is just in the entertainment area, I guess when the main character is a white man, it is understandable to show his emotions and reactions over what happened. I assume people are frustrated, that the white man is the main character and that his emotions matter more than the emotions of the other characters. But that's always been the situation in Arrow. Oliver Queen's feelings were always more important over Laurel's, Sara's, Diggle's, Roy's, Thea's and so on. Honestly I also would like to have a DC comics based show with a main female character, hope one day they make one. 

[dtissagirl]

40 minutes ago, rtalive said:

Ok , so if a white man feels shitty about something bad, that happened to a person, who he cares about, it is a man pain. I am sorry, but this is really difficult for me to understand. Is this just a slang for movies, tv, books or it is used in real life situations too.

It's used in real life too. And it's not about men feeling shitty -- it's about them putting their feelings ABOVE the feelings of the person who suffered. This is SUPER COMMON in real life. It's the guy who starts drinking heavily to numb his feelings after his girlfriend gets sexually assaulted. It's the guy who rejects his wife after she has a mastectomy, because her having boobies is more important to him than her having had to go through it. It's the guy who punches his daughter's boyfriend when the kids have a fight, because how he feels about the boyfriend is more important than how his daughter feels about her boyfriend.

And it's Oliver when Felicity was laying in a hospital paralyzed and he refused to be there for her. At that moment, Oliver was incapable of letting go of his feelings of rage and revenge. He put those feelings HE was feeling above being there for Felicity. And he probably rationalized it that being there for Felicity meant sitting in uncomfortable hospital chairs for hours doing nothing, so if at least he was out there looking for DD he was ~doing something~, but he chose to deal with his feelings instead of being uncomfortable while showing support for his fiancée. That's man pain.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

And it's Oliver when Felicity was laying in a hospital paralyzed and he refused to be there for her. At that moment, Oliver was incapable of letting go of his feelings of rage and revenge. He put those feelings HE was feeling above being there for Felicity. And he probably rationalized it that being there for Felicity meant sitting in uncomfortable hospital chairs for hours doing nothing, so if at least he was out there looking for DD he was ~doing something~, but he chose to deal with his feelings instead of being uncomfortable while showing support for his fiancée. That's man pain.

It's also the fact that we saw Oliver learn she was paralyzed but we didn't see Felicity get the diagnosis herself. We don't even know how many surgeries she had (just that she was going in for another one and Oliver was busy going out and fighting ghosts and getting nowhere). He didn't even know they'd brought in another doctor to consult - remember he brought up the doctor and Donna told him that already happened?

All of this could have been solved if they didn't show people constantly tell Oliver to go see her and him saying, "No, she'd want me to be doing this." (No, Oliver, I'm pretty sure your paralyzed fiancee would like you to take five minutes to go see her.) Even Donna's anger lasted for all of one sentence before Oliver was distracted by the diagnosis, wanting to see Felicity and then leaving again after he saw the news report about Anarky. 

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, rtalive said:

Because if this is just in the entertainment area, I guess when the main character is a white man, it is understandable to show his emotions and reactions over what happened.

You can't actually show someone else's emotions about things that should matter to a completely different person. Or, I mean, you could (and Hollywood likes to do that a lot with their white male protagonists) but it's essentially done via erasing characters' agency and also erasing them as individuals from narrative that belongs to them by right.

Felicity's disability and her being hurt is not about Oliver and his feelings. It's about Felicity and her feelings. She was hurt. She was struggling with reality of never being able to walk again. But nothing that would show us her POV was ever shown in that episode. She was a subject to Oliver's suffering. And even in the hallucinations episode Felicity's struggle was more of a"What could I bring to the team/Oliver now?", not "This is awful situation and I want to scream".

Oliver killing Felicity's boyfriend is not about Oliver and his feelings. It's about people who was hurt by Oliver's mistake because their loved one were killed.

[rtalive]

24 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

It's used in real life too. And it's not about men feeling shitty -- it's about them putting their feelings ABOVE the feelings of the person who suffered. This is SUPER COMMON in real life. It's the guy who starts drinking heavily to numb his feelings after his girlfriend gets sexually assaulted. It's the guy who rejects his wife after she has a mastectomy, because her having boobies is more important to him than her having had to go through it. It's the guy who punches his daughter's boyfriend when the kids have a fight, because how he feels about the boyfriend is more important than how his daughter feels about her boyfriend.

And it's Oliver when Felicity was laying in a hospital paralyzed and he refused to be there for her. At that moment, Oliver was incapable of letting go of his feelings of rage and revenge. He put those feelings HE was feeling above being there for Felicity. And he probably rationalized it that being there for Felicity meant sitting in uncomfortable hospital chairs for hours doing nothing, so if at least he was out there looking for DD he was ~doing something~, but he chose to deal with his feelings instead of being uncomfortable while showing support for his fiancée. That's man pain.

I understand that now, thank you.

[rtalive]

2 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

You can't actually show someone else's emotions about things that should matter to a completely different person. Or, I mean, you could (and Hollywood likes to do that a lot with their white male protagonists) but it's essentially done via erasing characters' agency and also erasing them as individuals from narrative that belongs to them by right.

Felicity's disability and her being hurt is not about Oliver and his feelings. It's about Felicity and her feelings. She was hurt. She was struggling with reality of never being able to walk again. But nothing that would show us her POV was ever shown in that episode. She was a subject to Oliver's suffering. And even in the hallucinations episode Felicity's struggle was more of a"What could I bring to the team/Oliver now?", not "This is awful situation and I want to scream".

Oliver killing Felicity's boyfriend is not about Oliver and his feelings. It's about people who was hurt by Oliver's mistake because their loved one were killed.

I agree, it is not about him, I get that now.  Yes I would have totally liked to see Felicity screamed when she was injured. It was really stupid when they made that again about him feeling guilty. 

Loosing Billy is also something for Felicity too, but I think at least they will giver her that.

And this conversation now made me thinking that I was really annoyed in the beginning of the season how Felicity was suggesting a new team not as an equal partner, but as a person who just gives advice to Oliver, in a way it is his team, his decision, him moving on, not something they as partners should decide together.

[way2interested]

11 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

You can't actually show someone else's emotions about things that should matter to a completely different person. Or, I mean, you could (and Hollywood likes to do that a lot with their white male protagonists) but it's essentially done via erasing characters' agency and also erasing them as individuals from narrative that belongs to them by right.

Felicity's disability and her being hurt is not about Oliver and his feelings. It's about Felicity and her feelings. She was hurt. She was struggling with reality of never being able to walk again. But nothing that would show us her POV was ever shown in that episode. She was a subject to Oliver's suffering. And even in the hallucinations episode Felicity's struggle was more of a"What could I bring to the team/Oliver now?", not "This is awful situation and I want to scream".

Oliver killing Felicity's boyfriend is not about Oliver and his feelings. It's about people who was hurt by Oliver's mistake because their loved one were killed.

Can't it be about both people's emotions, though? I mean, I think it should, even if it's a shame that it doesn't. Yeah, one should be more highlighted than the other depending on what happens to which person, but I like seeing others' emotions too, since events happening, even to one person, affect multiple people.

Idk, to me 411 was more of a "This is awful situation and I want to scream" struggle for Felicity rather than a "What could I bring to the team/Oliver now?" and the whole her contributing to the team was just more of a way to exemplify her emotions in the situation (even she mentioned it as "the thing that she's supposed to be able to do" and got upset because she didn't seem to have her own skills/confidence anymore, not that she felt she couldn't contribute to the team per se, although those things do connect). 

[dtissagirl]

I don't have a specific problem with Oliver's man pain while Felicity was in the hospital. I was way more bothered by the lack of POV about what Felicity was going on while we were shown consecutive stunt sequences of anonymous men being punched by Oliver.

But at least at no time did the narrative try to paint him as doing the right thing. The story treated it AS man pain. Small silver lining. Everyone was telling him to stop being a dumbass and go see Felicity, and at the end he copped out to being wrong -- he even called in inexcusable.

The larger problem is that at this point, Oliver was already deeply infected with Baby Mama Drama disease. And because it's crazy bananapants to ask the poor viewer [me] in the audience to compartmentalize my feelings about previous super shitty happenings, what happened was that I wasn't just going, "man, Oliver, stop being a dumbass and go sit in a uncomfortable chair to support Felicity". I was going, "OLIVER, YOU'RE ALREADY HIDING A DEMON SPAWN FROM FELICITY AND NOW YOU'RE NOT EVEN THERE WHEN SHE COMES OUT OF SURGERY? ARE YOU THAT MUCH OF A MORON? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?"

Because the Baby Mama Drama ruined everything.

Edited January 13, 2017 by dtissagirl

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

The larger problem is that at this point, Oliver was already deeply infected with Baby Mama Drama disease. And because it's crazy bananapants to ask the poor viewer [me] in the audience to compartmentalize my feelings about previous super shitty happenings, what happened was that I wasn't just going, "man, Oliver, stop being a dumbass and go sit in a uncomfortable chair to support Felicity". I was going, "OLIVER, YOU'RE ALREADY HIDING A DEMON SPAWN FROM FELICITY AND NOW YOU'RE NOT EVEN THERE WHEN SHE COMES OUT OF SURGERY? ARE YOU THAT MUCH OF A MORON? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?"

Because the Baby Mama Drama ruined everything.

It really did ruin everything. Especially since in 412, Oliver mentioned trips to CC, and I couldn't help but think, "So, did you start making those trips after Felicity was out of the hospital and recovering at home and adjusting to life in a wheelchair or...?" The problem there was that they didn't want to deal with BMD until 414/415, so they kind of pretended it didn't exist, but still threw in that CC line. They weren't very clear about what was and wasn't happening there. That's just bad writing. 

[ladylaw99]

The baby mama drama really did ruin everything for me , I could bang my head against a wall and it wouldn't damage my brain as much as that story.  I swear I lost brain cells watching season 4b.

[rtalive]

12 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't have a specific problem with Oliver's man pain while Felicity was in the hospital. I was way more bothered by the lack of POV about what Felicity was going on while we were shown consecutive stunt sequences of anonymous men being punched by Oliver.

But at least at no time did the narrative try to paint him as doing the right thing. The story treated it AS man pain. Small silver lining. Everyone was telling him to stop being a dumbass and go see Felicity, and at the end he copped out to being wrong -- he even called in inexcusable.

The larger problem is that at this point, Oliver was already deeply infected with Baby Mama Drama disease. And because it's crazy bananapants to ask the poor viewer [me] in the audience to compartmentalize my feelings about previous super shitty happenings, what happened was that I wasn't just going, "man, Oliver, stop being a dumbass and go sit in a uncomfortable chair to support Felicity". I was going, "OLIVER, YOU'RE ALREADY HIDING A DEMON SPAWN FROM FELICITY AND NOW YOU'RE NOT EVEN THERE WHEN SHE COMES OUT OF SURGERY? ARE YOU THAT MUCH OF A MORON? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?"

Because the Baby Mama Drama ruined everything.

I don't like the baby mama drama too, poor writing, forced plot lines. There were so many more interesting and not forced possibilities to separate the couple if they wanted to.

But in a way I get it why Oliver was not on the chair next to her, although he was in the end, so he redeemed himself. I think, this is who he is, and the writers wanted to be true to his personality, he is not a man that sits and holds someone's hand. He goes out there and beats people up. He didn't went to Tommy's funeral, his mother funeral, he was not there next to Laurel or Thea for their losses.

He was never perfect boyfriend, never perfect at dealing with relationships, pain and loss. He is very conflicted, flawed, dark man. And I like that about him, it makes it more interesting to explore his development.

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, rtalive said:

he was not there next to Laurel or Thea for their losses.

He was with Thea and Laurel every time they were in the hospital. 

[dtissagirl]

7 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

It really did ruin everything. Especially since in 412, Oliver mentioned trips to CC, and I couldn't help but think, "So, did you start making those trips after Felicity was out of the hospital and recovering at home and adjusting to life in a wheelchair or...?" The problem there was that they didn't want to deal with BMD until 414/415, so they kind of pretended it didn't exist, but still threw in that CC line. They weren't very clear about what was and wasn't happening there. That's just bad writing. 

I was talking to someone about this storyline over the holidays, and they said something I hadn't thought about, but I agree. The BMD narrative being so widely reviled made the writers into cowards. That CC line is exactly that -- it's cowardly dialog that's vague on purpose as to not portray any kind of opinion about what Oliver was doing. Did he go to CC before he proposed? Did he go to CC while Felicity was in the hospital? What did he say to her when he went to CC? Who paid for the trips? We'll never know because they were too chicken shit to write it all down.

[dtissagirl]

4 minutes ago, rtalive said:

But in a way I get it why Oliver was not on the chair next to her, although he was in the end, so he redeemed himself. I think, this is who he is, and the writers wanted to be true to his personality, he is not a man that sits and holds someone's hand. He goes out there and beats people up. He didn't went to Tommy's funeral, his mother funeral, he was not there next to Laurel or Thea for their losses.

I get why too -- it's because Oliver is a dude who really man pains a lot. He literally doesn't have the coping mechanisms to deal when bad things happen to people he loves. Sitting and holding someone's hand is putting one's feelings aside to support their loved ones. Oliver sucks at doing this big time.

And hey, he man pains a lot because of the 5 years of hell. His man pain is totally explainable by his experiences, when he should've been going into adulthood and learning to cope with tragedy in a normal human way, instead of a soldier/survivor way. But it shouldn't be justifiable, "oh, siting and holding someone's hand is just not who he is". That is saying that it's all right for Oliver to put his feelings above the person he should be sitting beside and holding hands to.

[rtalive]

8 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

He was with Thea and Laurel every time they were in the hospital. 

Laurel was in a hospital? Or you are saying when she died? Yes he was there. I had other moments as an example, but  I guess, overall I mean, he just reacts like that, irrationally. He was out there on the street because he thought that this is what he should do to help her, stop Darhk.

[ladylaw99]

Quote

8 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I was talking to someone about this storyline over the holidays, and they said something I hadn't thought about, but I agree. The BMD narrative being so widely reviled made the writers into cowards. That CC line is exactly that -- it's cowardly dialog that's vague on purpose as to not portray any kind of opinion about what Oliver was doing. Did he go to CC before he proposed? Did he go to CC while Felicity was in the hospital? What did he say to her when he went to CC? Who paid for the trips? We'll never know because they were too chicken shit to write it all down.

I agree with this.  They chicken out and took the easy way out and made it very vague. It just baffles me that not one person in the writers room did not see any red flags with this storyline.  How no one could see how bad of an idea this was.

[rtalive]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

I get why too -- it's because Oliver is a dude who really man pains a lot. He literally doesn't have the coping mechanisms to deal when bad things happen to people he loves. Sitting and holding someone's hand is putting one's feelings aside to support their loved ones. Oliver sucks at doing this big time.

And hey, he man pains a lot because of the 5 years of hell. His man pain is totally explainable by his experiences, when he should've been going into adulthood and learning to cope with tragedy in a normal human way, instead of a soldier/survivor way. But it shouldn't be justifiable, "oh, siting and holding someone's hand is just not who he is". That is saying that it's all right for Oliver to put his feelings above the person he should be sitting beside and holding hands to.

never said that, i am not saying he was right, just saying that this is part of his personality, he believed he was helping her by being out there on the street trying to stop Darhk. In the end a story will not be interesting if the protagonist is perfect.

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, rtalive said:

Laurel was in a hospital? Or you are saying when she died? Yes he was there. I had other moments as an example, but  I guess, overall I mean, he just reacts like that, irrationally. He was out there on the street because he thought that this is what he should do to help her, stop Darhk.

He also came to see her when she was dosed by the LOA in S2. He was with Thea in the hospital in S3 when she was DYING (hmm, apparently he can sit with his sister when she's probably dying but not his fiancee when she's paralyzed) and in S4 after Sara attacked her. Heck, he was with Thea at the hospital in S1 when she crashed her car.

It's just with Felicity that his manpain took precedence over her actual pain.

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, rtalive said:

never said that, i am not saying he was right, just saying that this is part of his personality, he believed he was helping her by being out there on the street trying to stop Darhk. In the end a story will not be interesting if the protagonist is perfect.

I've never understood this. Nobody says he should be perfect. Literally NOBODY. But with Oliver, perfect is Australia and Oliver just keeps moving to planets further away in the solar system. Right now he's swiftly approaching Uranus.

Edited January 13, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

The funniest part for me is that the decision to make Oliver and Felicity 100% drama-free this season is a direct result from the disaster of the BMD last year. The garbage fire they started is still affecting the show. Felicity being written overtly cheerful is a result of that. Oliver being a weird constipated robot is a result of that. It's hilarious.

[insomniadreams88]

You know, if they hadn't been so insistent on breaking up O/F last season using the BMD and Oliver had told Felicity about William from the start, we could have gotten a scene or two where he told her he was worried about going to see his son or something ... so that it wasn't just one scene of him with William in 408, a mention of trips to CC in 412 and then bam, William kidnapped and it being this whole "What? But how could that happen when the only people who knew included the man whose hand I just cut off?" We could have gotten something else that would make me care about the kid instead of thinking, "Wow, this kid is an idiot. But then again, his mom is telling him it's okay to play with men who are her friends, so..." They really should have done more for the father/son relationship instead of just making it "Well, he's his son, so therefore he's the most important person to Oliver." 

[EmilyBettFan]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

The funniest part for me is that the decision to make Oliver and Felicity 100% drama-free this season is a direct result from the disaster of the BMD last year. The garbage fire they started is still affecting the show. Felicity being written overtly cheerful is a result of that. Oliver being a weird constipated robot is a result of that. It's hilarious.

Yet they can't own up to the fact that it was BMD that caused them to write Oliver and Felicity this way.

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, rtalive said:

never said that, i am not saying he was right, just saying that this is part of his personality, he believed he was helping her by being out there on the street trying to stop Darhk. In the end a story will not be interesting if the protagonist is perfect.

No doubt he believed he was helping Felicity by going after DD.

But we never got Felicity's POV.  Maybe what she wanted was Oliver to be beside her as she went through her surgeries and listened to all the doctors telling her it was permanent.  Felicity supported Oliver spending his time looking for DD because that was the only choice she was given and she loved him enough to put his needs above hers, even though by any measure hers should have come first at the time.

Which just makes Oliver's BMD lies and disregarding of Felicity's needs all the worse since we just saw her put his needs ahead of hers

Between his selfishness in 4B and the ending of 5x09, they're making it very hard to root for Oliver.