Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Balaclava]

@wonderwall thanks for the parallel gifs, and i too mourn at what could've been, including Moira/Donna scenes 

Edited December 31, 2015 by Balaclava

[wonderwall]

One thing I've noticed about Oliver and his island/post-island sexual partners is that he only seems to get intimate with women he regards as relative equals.  Despite declaring her to be a "partner" in 2.10, I think at this point he still does regard Felicity to be a combination of employee and little sister.

 

Tbh if by 210 you still think that Oliver regards Felicity as an employee/little sister you will probably be weirded out when they do actually get together and think that they were rushed. 

 

IMO I never really saw them like that because if my brother looked at me the way Oliver looks at Felicity, then that would be so gross to me :p Anyways yeah, so I never saw them like that so it was easier for me to believe the transition in their relationship.

Edited December 31, 2015 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

IMO I never really saw them like that because if my brother looked at me the way Oliver looks at Felicity, then that would be so gross to me :

 

Like in the scene after he's told her she's his partner when he says, "Maybe he's dreaming of you."  He gets this soft, wistful look of longing on his face that at the time had me convinced the person who really was dreaming of Felicity was Oliver.  I was so pleased when there were references in season three that convinced me I wasn't imagining it. 

 

I don't think that Oliver ever thought of her as his little sister, not after the way he checked her out the first time she got glammed up, but I do think he told himself over and over again that Felicity was not allowed for him and he tried to put her into a safe, neutral off limits box. 

 

I think that Oliver did think of both Diggle and Felicity as his partners but he still considered the mission as his mission and that in his mind meant ultimately he had the final say.  So partners in the sense he knew he couldn' t do this without them and he absolutely trusted them and relied on them, but he still considered himself the partner in charge. 

[way2interested]

I only vaguely remember how I perceived them in 2a, but I think that I perceived them as partners rather than romantically inclined towards one another (I started wanting them together in 122, but didn't really think it would go anywhere because of the Laurel and Sara of it all). However, in 206, I thought it basically confirmed that Oliver did have romantic feelings for Felicity, or at least was basically admitting that he's wanted it or thought about it. He just quickly clarified that he wouldn't allow himself to have those feelings because he did not feel that he deserved it/did not feel like he could make it work. Then his behavior towards saving Felicity in 207, his pseudo-jealously in 208, his apology in 210, and other little moments leading up to 221-223, in my "aw that's sweet and Olicity is probably not going to happen because Sara is now a thing" mind, were those feelings that Oliver just admitted to having coming out in small bursts that he allowed himself because he placed Felicity in this "partners" box (i.e. "Of course I saved her life and want to reassure her, she's my partner. Of course I'm concerned that this new guy might be lying to her, she's my partner. Of course, I want to apologize to her/reassure her of our friendship/boost her self-confidence/protect her/listen to her, she's my partner). He may not have consciously done these moments in terms of his romantic feelings for Felicity, but I feel like he knew that he had them, or at least that part of him wanted to have them. He just regarded Felicity as a partner in his mind to place a platonic title to their relationship.

 

When watching Arrow the first time, I wasn't in tune to fandom or internet talk until between season 2 and 3, so I had no idea that there was this serious build-up or support for Oliver and Felicity. I just remember being in extreme denial that it was ever going to happen to steel myself for whatever would actually happen in Oliver's love life (weirdly enough though, I saw the plot in 223 coming all the way from 220 without looking at any internet theories, I just thought that Slade was going to mistakenly believe that Felicity was the woman that Oliver loved, and that they would be able to figure out a sneak attack from there). It still didn't really hit me that that show was actually going for the Oliver and Felicity romance literally until they went on that date in 301, even though I was really shipping them since "Very Platonic Circumstances."   

[BkWurm1]

I was doing the "Oh I want this but I don't get nice things" watch for all of season one but after only a couple episodes in season two I was suddenly cautiously optimistic and couldn't help myself from reaching out to the fandom to see what the general reaction to the possible pairing might be.  At first all I did was go and read the first pages of TWoP looking for the reactions to Felicity in the first season. 

 

Then I stumbled onto a post called "The Problem with Felicity Smoak" and suddenly I was sure Arrow was actually going to go for it.   Of course at the time I was also buying into them bringing Sara in to replace Laurel.  The back half of the season was a tough show to watch but I'm a Smallville survivor.  I'm still shipping Chlark so you know my skin  (or maybe my head) is very think so even though I really lost hope for a while, I was still not ready to give up.  Obviously I lost my self preservation skills during my Smallville tenure. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[NumberCruncher]

I wasn't confident at all that they were going the Oliver/Felicity route all throughout S1 and the vast majority of S2 largely because I kept hearing everyone mention the GA/BC connection and thought that these showrunners would never dare buck canon. That said, I wasn't an immediate Oliver/Felicity shipper until well into S2. I always thought that their interactions were fantastic, but it wasn't until the 2x06 "Because of the life that I lead" speech where you actually see Oliver's lightbulb moment at Felicity's response where I realized that there was extreme UST involved that was more than just friends. When the following episodes didn't show them getting beyond the now-and-then UST moments, I pretty much wrote off that TPTB would even go there. It wasn't until the last 3 episodes of S2 where they had some really momentous O/F scenes (i.e. Felicity always shown as the catalyst for each of Oliver's big damn hero moments, having an injured Oliver carry a passed out Felicity with big strong Diggle standing right there, hand holding and hugging all over the place, etc.) that I realized they were considering that direction. Even despite the fake-out in 2x23, you could see how gone Oliver was for Felicity in that beach scene at the end. He was not giving her a "you're just my really good friend" kind of look. All of these things happening is why I'll never buy the "Olicity came out of nowhere" argument. I wasn't a die-hard shipper through most of S1 & S2 and even I saw it coming.

Edited December 31, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[BkWurm1]

having an injured Oliver carry a passed out Felicity with big strong Diggle standing right there

 

This thing here.  One of my favorite moments.   Not only Diggle standing there strong and uninjured, but Diggle already carrying her and Oliver taking her from him.   It could have been a throw away moment and I wondered when it happened if the director realized what they'd just have happen because it was done so deliberately and yet treated so casually, just a wide shot of something that's over by the next scene but by then I was already swooning.  It reminds me a bit of the extra lift/carry he does in 4-10, just a precious moment that speaks volumes. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

Shameless self promo, but I actually wrote a meta on my interpretation of the evolution of Oliver/Felicity's relationship... It's 10 pages long so I don't expect anyone to read all of it and I don't think it's very well written but there you go... 

 

http://smoakd.tumblr.com/post/125872976746/the-evolution-of-olicity

[johntfs]

Tbh if by 210 you still think that Oliver regards Felicity as an employee/little sister you will probably be weirded out when they do actually get together and think that they were rushed. 

 

IMO I never really saw them like that because if my brother looked at me the way Oliver looks at Felicity, then that would be so gross to me :p Anyways yeah, so I never saw them like that so it was easier for me to believe the transition in their relationship.

 

Right now I'm about 15min into Episode 2.14.  So, I've seen the bit where Felicity talks about her mouth scar and Sara says "You're cute," which almost certainly launched dozens if not hundreds of Sara/Felicity romance fics.  I don't think that Oliver thinks of Felicity as an employee or a little sister exactly.  However, at this point in the story, I believe that he does not see her as someone who meets the requirements he has for romantic/sexual partners.  He does not see her as someone who can really take care of herself.  He does not see her as an equal.  He might see her as a partner, but only as a junior, limited partner.  He has yet to take the measure of her strength.  For that matter, so has she.

[Ceylon5]

Felicity seems to be pretty much the only woman Oliver has ever met that he didn't immediately sleep with.  I don't think he has any criteria/standards for who he sleeps with at all.  'See the girl, sleep with the girl' seems to have been a lifelong motto of his.  I think that Felicity was the only one he stayed away from because she mattered too much to him for him to screw it up by sleeping with her.  From the get-go, she's seen through his bullshit to the Oliver hiding inside.  He's vulnerable with her in a way he isn't with other women.  He's different with her than he is with anyone else, and he's smart enough to know the incredible value of that.  He needs her and he knows it.  He also knows that he's terrible at relationships and would probably mess things up if they were dating.  So he kept her at arms' length in that one area, because she was right inside his heart and mind and life in every other way.  Frankly, I think she confused and scared the hell out of him.

 

I think the sweet, gentle way he often has with her (when they're not fighting) could be interpreted as him seeing her as being vulnerable; as someone he needs to take care of.  Alternatively (and their subsequent relationship bears this out), it can be seen as him just going soft and gooey at the sight or thought of her, the way people in love do.  She makes him happy, and he's not sure what to do with that (happiness being a bit of a foreign concept for Oliver).

[bijoux]

Felicity seems to be pretty much the only woman Oliver has ever met that he didn't immediately sleep with.  I don't think he has any criteria/standards for who he sleeps with at all.  'See the girl, sleep with the girl' seems to have been a lifelong motto of his.  I think that Felicity was the only one he stayed away from because she mattered too much to him for him to screw it up by sleeping with her.  From the get-go, she's seen through his bullshit to the Oliver hiding inside.  He's vulnerable with her in a way he isn't with other women.  He's different with her than he is with anyone else, and he's smart enough to know the incredible value of that.  He needs her and he knows it.  He also knows that he's terrible at relationships and would probably mess things up if they were dating.  So he kept her at arms' length in that one area, because she was right inside his heart and mind and life in every other way.  Frankly, I think she confused and scared the hell out of him.

 

I actually don't think that Oliver doesn't have any standards when it comes to his bed partners. Ollie definitely, but not Oliver. That isn't to say I didn't facepalm at his choices. I did, so hard. But, while I think his logic was lacking and you know, unhealthy a lot of the time, I could see where he was coming from. Laurel was supposed to be his great love at the point, the one whose image got him through those five years and a shot of redemption for what he had put her through. Helena, Sara and even Isobel after their talk were women he could see had something in common with him. And McKenna (the best choice if we set aside the fact that she was hunting down the Hood at the time) seemed to genuinely like him.

 

But I do agree that he's completely different with Felicity and it's a good thing. A great thing, in fact. After 2x06 I actually got the impression that he was a little afraid of her and how she could draw him in if he allowed it.

[dtissagirl]

What fascinates me about Oliver/Felicity from 201 right until the O/S lunge in 213 is that they were 100% writing Oliver and Felicity as the protagonists of a rom com. Which I guess was something completely new for Oliver, even from within the narrative. He had never before had this kind of relationship with a woman -- he's attracted to her, he's maybe already seeing her as the ideal partner as early as 201 [most definitely in 206 and 207], "if only" he wasn't leading this crazy life, but she's too important in every aspect of his life, be it CEO or vigilante, for him to screw this up.

 

And I think Barry threw Oliver for the hugest loop of his life. Because I'm sure up until Barry showed up, Oliver had never ever EVER felt jealous in a romantic sense before. So much so that he barely understood what he was feeling. And then came the kicker -- Felicity seemed interested in Barry, even when BARRY WAS IN A COMA, and Oliver also didn't really know what to do with that. He's into her but thinks she's unattainable, and he also thinks she's not into him. Cue overcompensating with sister-swapping, part deux.

Edited December 31, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Happy Harpy]

I actually don't think that Oliver doesn't have any standards when it comes to his bed partners. Ollie definitely, but not Oliver. That isn't to say I didn't facepalm at his choices. I did, so hard. But, while I think his logic was lacking and you know, unhealthy a lot of the time, I could see where he was coming from.

I agree. For me, Oliver needed to persuade himself that he was in love or at the very least had a connection with every woman he slept with. It was a terrible idea most of the times, confusing love and sex, but on the other hand I found it kind of endearing. For me, it meant that he didn't see the women he slept with as pieces of meat, but as persons.

 

Felicity seems to be pretty much the only woman Oliver has ever met that he didn't immediately sleep with.

I agree, except for Shado who was his mentor. But then, it's their romantic relationship that I never bought. I loved them as friends and I loved that Oliver's Yoda was a beautiful young woman. It cheapened the whole thing and considering what came afterwards, she should have been involved with Slade instead.

 

The first time I felt a connection between Felicity and Oliver was when she gave him the list. She didn't buy the flippant shit he was selling and saw right through him, unlike 90% of his entourage including and least of all Laurel, and he realized he had to...and could allow himself to be sincere and honest with her.

The first time I went "aww" was when he found her in her office, after Helena threatened her.

I saw the chemistry, so romance was always an option in my mind. But I didn't think it would ever happen considering the L/O OTP anvils flying around.

 

The first time I thought that romance wasn't an option just in my mind, but was definitely on the table, was the confrontation with Count Vertigo in 2-07. There were many shippy moments before, especially in 2x06 and the "because of the life I lead" speech -which I wasn't too fond of writing-wise at the time- but the O/F fandom was getting buzz already, so I took those as ship tease/ship bait. Nevertheless, Oliver didn't break his killing vow for Thea, his beloved sister and his only family left, in 2x01, but he did it for Felicity in 2x07. I thought it was a huge, huge deal, and so symbolic it had to be deliberate.

Of course, then I became terrified that the writers would "go there"; especially in S2-B. The more Oliver and Felicity interacted, the more I thought they made sense and would make a great couple. But I was convinced that they might give up on L/O, but would never give up on GA/BC (I still think to this day that if Sara/Oliver as a romantic pairing had been able to rival O/F in terms of buzz and support, Laurel would be off the show and O/F wouldn't have happened). So I thought they would go romantic, but not end game, destroying OTA and my love for the show in the process.

 

Nevertheless, the fact that the writers imposed no interpretation of the nature of the O/F relationship on the viewers was my favorite thing about its build-up. There was something between them, but people were free to see it as platonic if they wanted. Paradoxically, imo it helped to establish Felicity as "The One" for Oliver, because it made her important to him in more ways than one, as a partner and a friend, before he was sexually involved with her (unlike Sara, who became his friend afterwards) and before he could fall into his habit of making imo a romantic moutain out of a sexual molehill.

[Morrigan2575]

S2 was an interesting time in fandom. From what I remember everyone saw "IT" they just interpreted it differently. Those that were pro-Olicity or open to it, saw 201-210 + 213 as building up to Olicity becoming canon. Even if most of those fan felt that it wouldn't last very long and that they would eventually breakup so, the show could go back to Lauiver.

The other side of the coin saw the romantic/emotional beats as well but were so certain that Olicity could/would never happen. To them all of the romantic beats in 201-210 +213 were just simple shipper baiting, an attempt to tease and string the Olicity shippers along, much like Smallville strung Chlark shippers along for a decade.

For me, it started back towards the end of S1 when soemone on TWOP posted a link to an MG interview. This was the interview where he talked about closing the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy love triangle in S1 before they could move onto Olicity. That was the first time I thought wow, they might actually go there. Until that interview, I really did think Olicity would go the Chlark route and never happen.

I started S2 with eyes open so (while I figured Olicity would eventually break up for Lauiver reunion) I fully saw all the Olicity beats as lead up. 206 and 207 were the big holy crap it's actually happening moments (for me). I was certain that Oliver was talking about Felicity in his "life I lead speech" and the scenes with The Count confirmed it (for me). The kicker was Felicity "crowning" Oliver in 209, putting the mask on Oliver at the end of 209 told me yep Olicity is totally happening. Oliver's blatant jealousy in 210 (jealousy in 208-209 was debated by many) just confirmed it for me.

Then 213 happened, I knew it was going to happen I had called it on TWOP, while most people said no way Oliver/Sara would never do that to Laurel. So, I wasn't as shocked or angered over the hookup. Plus, I loved Sara and wanted to keep Sara as Black Canary and get rid of Laurel. I remember saying (on TWOP) that I was willing to sacrifice Olicity if it meant I could keep Sara as Black Canary.

ETA: The first moment when I realized Oliver/Felicity had potential and I wanted them to be a couple was the "guantanamo" scene. When Felicity admitted to dying her hair and Oliver leaned over to check her roots.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

Right now I'm about 15min into Episode 2.14.  So, I've seen the bit where Felicity talks about her mouth scar and Sara says "You're cute," which almost certainly launched dozens if not hundreds of Sara/Felicity romance fics.  I don't think that Oliver thinks of Felicity as an employee or a little sister exactly.  However, at this point in the story, I believe that he does not see her as someone who meets the requirements he has for romantic/sexual partners.  He does not see her as someone who can really take care of herself.  He does not see her as an equal.  He might see her as a partner, but only as a junior, limited partner.  He has yet to take the measure of her strength.  For that matter, so has she.

I find this interesting. 

 

I agree in S1. He respected her abilities and value as a team mate, but I would say at she wasn't on the same level Diggle was on. I think that changed in The Undertaking. "If you're not leaving, I'm not leaving." I think that was the moment Team Arrow was solidified and they were all in this equal measure. 

 

In terms of equal partners in S2. One implication seems to be that he only views those that can fight as his 'equals.' I don't think that's correct. Felicity can't fight. She isn't a ninja and she doesn't come from a war-zone. He is going to be more protective of her and try to keep her out of the field. That doesn't mean he doesn't view her as an equal. That just means he is fully aware of where her strength lays. If you add in that he was falling in love with her at this time, then it's a whole other minefield. The fact that he keeps himself away from her but jumps into bed with Isabel and Sara, maybe he doesn't see himself as her equal. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[dtissagirl]

In hindsight, the Oliver/Sara hook up actually solidified O/F in a way I could not see during the season. I wasn't willing to sacrifice O/F to keep Sara [sorry], but O/S having their half-baked relationship helped keep Felicity completely separate from whatever comic canon romance they were trying for that *didn't work* with either Laurel or Sara*. I figure if you try comic canon TWICE and it doesn't stick, you gotta go outside the predetermined crap.

* it definitely didn't help Sara that the ratings dropped hardcore right after the 213 lunge [because the CW fucked up the schedule, mind you], and stayed down until the end of the season. I don't know what would have happened if the CW hadn't skipped February Sweeps, but I got what I wanted because they did it, so THANKS, CW.

[hogwash]

Aw, S02 Olicity. I think Oliver put poor Felicity in his NOPE/NEVER box the moment she handed him that notebook. At that moment, she became too important to his mission to screw. His burgeoning feelings and the cute flirty flirt thing they had going by that point meant nothing compared to what she could bring to the mission. It does makes sense. If you're a vigilante spree killer, a cute IT girl you flirt with is not really something you're looking for. Felicity literally realizes that too the moment she sees him bleeding in her backseat.

But they're both dumb. That initial "he/she's cute" thing that colored all their interactions before OTA formed doesn't just go away cause you're vigilantes together. If anything the close proximity, near constant interaction, and lack of boundaries made those burgeoning feelings blossom even more. But neither characters saw the point of pursuing it and just left it at that until Isabel. I loved that even though she knew the answer she had to ask him for clarification on the NOPE/NEVER thing. Then they both kinda recommit to NOPE/NEVER.

I think it's so great that those early S02 interactions had shades of their early S01 interactions but with more weight and affection. Very romcom. Only by that point they're even dumber cause the attraction is still there, they're still constantly together, and they're still intimately getting to know each other.

MINOR S03 SPOILERS: I'm still annoyed that 301 rushed Oliver into pursuing things. Oliver was bigger holdout when it came to NOPE/NEVER. We never got a good explanation on why he changed his mind. Plus Felicity was weirdly passive throughout S03. Having a more straightforward "because of the life we lead" be their arc is not a bad idea (especially considering what happens at the end of 301) but it was bad execution all around. Wish they reviewed the scene and really looked at why it worked so well. Especially if they were going for a role reversal. It's up on YouTube...

[Morrigan2575]

[because the CW fucked up the schedule, mind you]

You expected them to counter program against The Olympics? Or sacrifice all of February Sweeps?

Edited December 31, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

You expected them to counter program against The Olympics? Or sacrifice all of February Sweeps?

I honestly don't know. They had a super shitty hand, and they did what they thought was best, but it still lost Arrow that .2 in the demo for the rest of the season. I can only speculate that the average viewer forgot to tune back in when the show returned after 3 weeks off.

Edited December 31, 2015 by dtissagirl

[hogwash]

I'll never understand how they took 2B's low ratings (under extenuating circumstances) and got replace Sara with Laurel and turn Barry Allen's two episode backdoor pilot into 16(!!!) episodes of just the scenes where Barry's in the lab with Felicity but this time with a stalker CEO. ???? Sara took a massive hit in popularity after the lunge but it was nothing compared to Laurel. Plus, Felicity and Barry were cute but Barry and Oliver did a lot to sell the spinoff. It was things like Oliver choking Barry after he saved his life AND Barry hanging around and investigating with Felicity.

In 2A, I totally would have taken Sara as the Black Canary over Oliver/Felicity. But then 2B happened and I lost OTA too. No thanks. Por que no los dos??

[Ann Mack]

I liked Sara as a "fighting" partner and "friend" to Oliver. But I NEVER liked Sara with Oliver romantically!!!

Edited December 31, 2015 by Ann Mack

[Luckylyn]

I noticed the chemistry between Oliver/Felicity since their first scene and enjoyed Felicity independently as a character.  I really liked her interactions with Walter and am sad that the friendship begun with those characters in Season 1 was abandoned.  (on a side note: I'm really bitter that the Walter/Thea father/daughter dynamic which would have really added more conflict and layers to the Thea's interactions with Malcolm was thrown away.  It's season 4 and I still think "Where's Walter?" because he really could've been part of storylines for Thea, Felicity, and Oliver)  I'm also sad that the rapport between Felicity and Quentin was never allowed to become a closer friendship. 

 

Back to Oliver/Felicity,  I was liking their interactions but resistant to shipping them because I thought Oliver/Laurel was inevitable.  Then, 1x17 happened and Oliver's reaction to Helena threatening Tommy versus Helena threatening Felicity got me on board with the Olicity ship.   When Tommy is threatened Oliver still tries to reason with Helena but when Felicity is threatened Oliver wanted Helena dead. Plus, his tenderness toward Felicity when he found her tied up in the office showcased the chemistry so well that I just couldn't stop myself from loving the pairing.   I think season 2 showcased Oliver trying to repress whatever attraction he had to Felicity with a few moments here and there where it showed through in spite of his efforts to compartmentalize Felicity's place in his life.

 

The Sara/Oliver lunge really annoyed me because I thought with the right writing Sara/Oliver could work, but it happened too quickly and with a really poor buildup.  Plus, Oliver and Sara came off as completely insensitive to how Laurel would feel about the situation.  I remember thinking that although Olicity was my main ship I wouldn't mind Oliver/Sara as endgame with the right writing, but the relationship was really handled poorly.  I think that's because it was more about stalling Oliver/Felicity and putting another nail in the Oliver/Laurel romance coffin than it was about exploring Oliver and Sara's characters.  It was more plot device than relationship which was disappointing because it could have been something good.

[bijoux]

I liked Sara as a "fighting" partner and "friend" to Oliver. But I NEVER liked Sara with Oliver romantically!!!

I never saw Oliver and Sara as romantic. I also didn't get the impression of the show trying to sell it as such. It always came across more as comfort and familiarity. It was understandable to me. They went though a lot of similar, highly unusual experience and saw likeness in that. Only as the episodes went on, their differences came more to the forefront.

[tarotx]

Oliver and Sara was about stalling Olicity. But I don't think they could have worked full time on a show where Laurel was still a character. The sister swapping just makes it nasty. But I think them getting together fit with where Sara and Oliver were in season 2. Lost but wanting more but going for comfort because neither handled being present in drama well. It happened because they needed each other-not because they were right for each other. It was need of comfort and a bit I know you can deliver sexually(and I need that)-not love and needing to make that person better and allowing them to make you better. Sara and Oliver fed each others lone wolf syndrome. Which Sara perhaps gravitates toward naturally but Oliver is more a people person. 

[kismet]

Like in the scene after he's told her she's his partner when he says, "Maybe he's dreaming of you." He gets this soft, wistful look of longing on his face that at the time had me convinced the person who really was dreaming of Felicity was Oliver. I was so pleased when there were references in season three that convinced me I wasn't imagining it.

I don't think that Oliver ever thought of her as his little sister, not after the way he checked her out the first time she got glammed up, but I do think he told himself over and over again that Felicity was not allowed for him and he tried to put her into a safe, neutral off limits box.

I think that Oliver did think of both Diggle and Felicity as his partners but he still considered the mission as his mission and that in his mind meant ultimately he had the final say. So partners in the sense he knew he couldn' t do this without them and he absolutely trusted them and relied on them, but he still considered himself the partner in charge.

I agree about the dreaming too. I was so excited when they referenced it in s3. That boy has been dreaming about FS for a long time. I also totally agree that he had her in a partner, can't touch box and combined with his emotional insecurities felt he didn't deserve her.

I was not part of the fandom in S2, so I was surprised there was such momentum behind o/f. I really thought they would drag out the will they won't they for another season. I was surprised they had OQ admit he loved her in s2 and never take it back. I was only surprised by how they stalled it in s3. I really thought we were in for I love but not in LOVE you in a romantic sense. I love that he never took it back, but I am pissed about how they handled s3 overall.

[wonderwall]

Right now I'm about 15min into Episode 2.14.  So, I've seen the bit where Felicity talks about her mouth scar and Sara says "You're cute," which almost certainly launched dozens if not hundreds of Sara/Felicity romance fics.  I don't think that Oliver thinks of Felicity as an employee or a little sister exactly.  However, at this point in the story, I believe that he does not see her as someone who meets the requirements he has for romantic/sexual partners.  He does not see her as someone who can really take care of herself.  He does not see her as an equal.  He might see her as a partner, but only as a junior, limited partner.  He has yet to take the measure of her strength.  For that matter, so has she.

 

I'm not trying to dissuade you or anything... This is YOUR interpretation of the show and I respect it. I just happen to disagree :) 

 

I for one don't think that Oliver ever really saw Felicity as someone less than him. I think he always saw her as an equal. Maybe not an equal in the field, but an equal in footing. Him telling Felicity that she's his partner solidified that. It shows that he values her opinion, he values her skill, he values her hard work just like any partner does. If you look at it from Felicity's perspective, I too, would also think that she views Oliver as her equal even though he can't hack if his life depended on it. 

 

I'm interested in what your opinion of 2x23 is! Because that episode is a prime example of just how much Oliver trusts her in the field and just how much Oliver thinks she can take care of herself. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by wonderwall

[calliope1975]

I came to fandom late. I watched a screener of the pilot and liked it, but I didn't pick the show up until I kept seeing gifs of Olicity on Tumblr. I binged S1 right as S2 began, and caught up to real time by S2E3, I think. So, from Tumblr, I was predisposed to think of them as something even as I realized I wasn't sure the show was going to go there. (But I also know Tumblr, which made me think Derek was one of the leads on Teen Wolf, isn't always indicative of how shows are actually structured based on fandom's reflection.)

 

A huge part is how SA interacts with EBR. The hair dying look, the soft, way too affectionate way he looks at her, etc. If he had played it with Felicity how he did with McKenna or Helena, I don't know that I would have fallen so hard for Olicity. 

[kismet]

I'll never understand how they took 2B's low ratings (under extenuating circumstances) and got replace Sara with Laurel and turn Barry Allen's two episode backdoor pilot into 16(!!!) episodes of just the scenes where Barry's in the lab with Felicity but this time with a stalker CEO. ???? Sara took a massive hit in popularity after the lunge but it was nothing compared to Laurel. Plus, Felicity and Barry were cute but Barry and Oliver did a lot to sell the spinoff. It was things like Oliver choking Barry after he saved his life AND Barry hanging around and investigating with Felicity.

In 2A, I totally would have taken Sara as the Black Canary over Oliver/Felicity. But then 2B happened and I lost OTA too. No thanks. Por que no los dos??

As much as I dislike LL. I never would have traded O/F for Sara. I didn't want SL dead, but I don't and still do not care enough about her to give up O/F. SORRY! Not really sorry. SL/CL is pretty kick ass but O/F is the lifeblood of the show.

And I agree that Oliver/Barry's chemistry did as much to sell the spin off as B/F. O/B are still a wonderful pairing. They are a lifesize chocolate covered pretzel. I just love how they play off each. Considering most of the successful pairings on Flash have been platonic male/male relationships, its safe to say that TPTB saw that potential from O/B.

[tarotx]

Original team Arrow is for sure the life blood but this show was good with them just as friends and partners. I do think Oliver has become a better person with Felicity as his friend but the same goes with Diggle. In fact most of the problems Arrow has faced can't be placed on any character or plot alone(rather we life or dislike them/it)-Except on the limited interaction they have given to OTA at times. I think that Olicity works so well on the show because it at least means some decent Oliver and Felicity scenes. Season 3 limited the scenes largely to drama. That kind of drama is never fun. Imo. 

[NumberCruncher]

A huge part is how SA interacts with EBR. The hair dying look, the soft, way too affectionate way he looks at her, etc. If he had played it with Felicity how he did with McKenna or Helena, I don't know that I would have fallen so hard for Olicity.

I do think this is a really large part of why TPTB went the O/F direction. They have even admitted as much when describing how EBR affected SA from their very first scene together. I don't think it's a surprise that people gravitated to the O/F pairing the way they did considering the show's lead actor visibly lit up/softened in his portrayal every time Oliver interacted with Felicity. Even if the producers had no intention of going there in the beginning, I imagine Stephen's cheerleading of the pairing both onscreen and off probably didn't hurt.

[johntfs]

I've seen some of Season 4, mostly because I tuned in to see Matt Ryan as John Constantine, so I'm a little clued into how things are at present (WTF is up with the island?  Does some weird new psycho with a paramilitary force visit every season?  Are we eventually going to see Ginger and Mary Ann leading headhunters with machine guns to recover the Minnow from that place circa Season 5?)

 

After multiple considerations, I would say that the biggest obstacle currently blocking Oliver and Felicity (aside from him being with Sara) is their mutual idealization.  Felicity sees Oliver as this great, selfless hero who could never really notice an ordinary person like herself.  Oliver sees Felicity as a manifestation of his desire to defend the weak, protect the helpless and save the innocent.  Save the IT girl, save the world.  They're both so busy quietly putting each other on pedestals that they don't see each other as a man and woman who can be together in a real, human way.

[Morrigan2575]

Gilligan and The Professor showing up on the Island might actually make things interesting. Sadly the flashbacks have long since lost any appeal (to me).

[catrox14]

I didn't think they put each other on pedestals  or had idealized notions about each other. 

 

I think Oliver couldn't believe that he could really be in love with someone because of his life and certainly not someone who was as valuable and important as Felicity in his life.I think he appreciated that she was different than him. That she complemented his dark side

 

And Felicity IMO didn't idealize Oliver at all. I think she saw him for what he was/is.  A damaged guy that she wasn't sure she SHOULD be with...not because he was this unattainable Oliver Queen...but because she was too different than him. 

 

I'm just glad their heart eyes and hand touches belied their silly thinking on this. Those beautiful idiots in love. :)

[NumberCruncher]

After multiple considerations, I would say that the biggest obstacle currently blocking Oliver and Felicity (aside from him being with Sara) is their mutual idealization.  Felicity sees Oliver as this great, selfless hero who could never really notice an ordinary person like herself.  Oliver sees Felicity as a manifestation of his desire to defend the weak, protect the helpless and save the innocent.  Save the IT girl, save the world.  They're both so busy quietly putting each other on pedestals that they don't see each other as a man and woman who can be together in a real, human way.

I think this is a fair assessment and it's yet another reason why I didn't think they would ever really put them together romantically. The "Because of the life I lead" speech sparked the potential between them for me as a viewer, but then the show sort of backed off making them something more and renewed their focus on being teammates in crime fighting, only giving scarce hints of sexual tension every now and then. Then the Sara/Oliver thing suddenly came out of nowhere, making no sense until the plot reasons behind it became clear in the S2 finale. It's at that point that you realize what TPTB were setting up all along. Unfortunately I think they completely blew the pacing by having Oliver and Felicity openly wanting to jump each other's bones in 3x01 (again for Plot!) instead of continuing the slow build up they had been using over the prior 2 seasons.

[NumberCruncher]

And Felicity IMO didn't idealize Oliver at all. I think she saw him for what he was/is.  A damaged guy that she wasn't sure she SHOULD be with...not because he was this unattainable Oliver Queen...but because she was too different than him.

I absolutely do think there was a certain amount of idealization of Oliver by Felicity. She was always the one propping him up with the "hero" label even when no one else (including Oliver) was saying/believing it. She saw in him what he didn't even believe of himself. Oliver spent the whole latter part of S2 doubting himself and TPTB essentially had Felicity constantly telling Oliver and the audience why he was so awesome. I also do think she believed Oliver would never look her way, especially since she made several comments about the type of women he usually "dated" which the audience was led to believe Felicity thought she was nothing like.

Edited December 31, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[wonderwall]

I absolutely do think there was a certain amount of idealization of Oliver by Felicity. She was always the one propping him up with the "hero" label even when no one else (including Oliver) was saying/believing it. She saw in him what he didn't even believe of himself. Oliver spent the whole latter part of S2 doubting himself and TPTB essentially had Felicity constantly telling Oliver and the audience why he was so awesome. I also do think she believed Oliver would never look her way, especially since she made several comments about the type of women he usually "dated" which the audience was led to believe Felicity thought she was nothing like.

 

I agree Felicity idealized Oliver a bit. It's actually how I think she was so successful in inspiring Oliver. I think this idealization was torn apart in S3 though when Oliver just kept making one bad decision after another. It's not necessarily a bad thing and it doesn't mean that Felicity doesn't believe in Oliver anymore. It's just that now Felicity actually knows Oliver's faults and faces them head on and still manages to inspire him when he needs inspiration. And even though she now knows his faults and deep insecurities, she still wants to be with him because she has come to know and love the man underneath the mask. That man is broken and messed up, but she loves him nonetheless. 

Edited January 1, 2016 by wonderwall

[NumberCruncher]

As johnfts mentioned, I also don't think the idealization was one-sided on Felicity's part. Oliver admitted on their first date that he held her up as this unique standard (i.e. the first person he saw as a real, genuine person) and that, too, is probably why he never took things beyond the working relationship they had back in S2. He saw himself as damaged and not worthy of loving this optimistic, real woman for fear that his demons would destroy her. The only reason he took the plunge in 3x01 was because Diggle pointed out that things were seemingly fixed in the superhero world to the point where Oliver could date someone like her.

I think Felicity did learn the hard way in S3 just how flawed the Oliver she had built up in her mind was which probably needed to happen purely from the standpoint of making her see Oliver for exactly who he is. Interestingly enough, it wasn't until S4 that Oliver saw the real Felicity and all of her flaws--especially when she was stressed out and biting his head off in 4x06. I'm personally glad that they have allowed both of them to see each other at their best and worst as that's what is expected of a healthy relationship,

Edited January 1, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[BkWurm1]

After multiple considerations, I would say that the biggest obstacle currently blocking Oliver and Felicity (aside from him being with Sara) is their mutual idealization.  Felicity sees Oliver as this great, selfless hero who could never really notice an ordinary person like herself.  Oliver sees Felicity as a manifestation of his desire to defend the weak, protect the helpless and save the innocent.  Save the IT girl, save the world.  They're both so busy quietly putting each other on pedestals that they don't see each other as a man and woman who can be together in a real, human way.

 

 

 

 

I also disagree that either Oliver or Felicity put each other on a pedestal but I do kind of understand why some might get that impression. 

 

Oliver treated Felicity with a special kind of care when she was at risk or hurt that was unlike anything we saw with him IMO with anyone else and Felicity saw him as a hero before anyone else would have ever considered him deserving of such a noble title.  She had faith in him even when she knew he was lying to her and she looked at him like he was a GQ model stepped off the page.  Plus there was that Billionaire thing. 

 

It wouldn't be hard to think that she had a case of hero worship.  And it wouldn't be hard to think that since Oliver pretty much only showed that level of concern for Thea, that he was putting Felicity in the same category of needing protection.  What kept me convinced that he didn't think of Felicity as a little sister type and Felicity wasn't idolizing Oliver came from their expectations and demands of each other.   

 

Let's start with Felicity.

 

Felicity fully understood that Oliver killed people and fully understood that his methods were brutal and even understood that he was an absolute ass in his "Ollie" days (and occasionally in his Oliver ones).  She rips on him for being a dumb frat boy in the past.  She quits rather than let him indiscriminately kill people on the list.  She pushes him to stop focusing only on his list and instead use his skills to help where it really could make a difference.  She calls him on his crap and doesn't hold her temper back when she feels he deserves it (and sometimes when he doesn't)  She's there to bolster him up with her faith when he loses faith and support him when he needs to break his own rules.  (In season three the dude does stuff no one supports him on but that's another subject).  She's not blind to his faults, she just is accepting that they are a part of him.

 

It's like how she understands that Sara is a killer but she doesn't let that affect how she treats her.  Extending to her that basic humanity may make Felicity seem naïve but it's not naivety, it's kindness and acceptance.  Later in season two we see how much Oliver relies on Felicity's belief in him as a source of strength and her faith isn't blind, it's a demand that he live up to his abilities like the kind of demand a teacher might place on a student who they know has the potential to do better work or needs a challenge to rise up and meet.  It's not idealizing to expect them to do their best and Felicity doesn't abandon him when he has less to give (Like when he ran away after Tommy's death and hide on the island for five months.  She gave him his space and then when it was time, helped bring him home.)

 

I do think that she assumed that she wasn't on his radar as dating material in the first season since he was caught up in "gorgeous Laurel" and he had already dated the stunning but deadly (and nutty) Helena, but she also saw him dating McKenna who wasn't exactly a glamour puss, so I don't think it was that she saw him as unapproachable, she very much thought of him as a close friend, but that friendship and what they did together makes crossing some lines that much more dangerous to even consider.  

 

I think for most of season two she assumed his head just wasn't in a place to date anyone, not to mention he still seemed at times to display Laurel blinders.  I think when he slept with Isabel she suddenly did wonder for a second why not her, but Oliver made it clear that he wasn't looking for a real relationship and yeah, they worked together and he kept things MOSTLY professional (more on that later) So I do agree that she decided that he just would never consider her and I do think she had self esteem issues about men wanting to date her as well.    But those were legitimate complications of their existing relationship and a dose of her issues, not IMO her placing him on a idealized pedestal. 

 

Now Oliver. 

 

With Oliver, we do see throughout all his interaction with Felicity a special care for her safety and a soft gentleness that almost seemed out of character for him and yeah, really the only other time we got hints of that was with Thea, but the big difference is that he was always willing to let Felicity take the risks she deemed worth taking. He is tender and at times touches her like she's made of glass but he puts her in danger willingly because he respects her right to make that call.   

 

Season one had him consciously bring her into the Hood's world.  Diggle was very concerned about her danger, but Oliver said they could protect her and that they needed her.  Time proved that they couldn't protect her from everything and her life more than once was in real peril.  He needed her help and had come to rely on her but if he thought of her as this person that symbolized all the people that needed to be kept safe, then he would have pushed her to always play it safe.  Instead, he repeatedly put her in situations where she was unsafe.  Because she made that call. 

 

The end of season one is a turning point.  He initially does want her out of the Glades but she makes him understand that being there and risking her life was her choice and that she was there because other's needed saving he accepted her right to make that choice.  He has never in the course of the show tried to make her quit or walk away from the mission to keep her safe (end of season three had nothing to do with her safety)  She was always in that respect treated as his equal partner. 

 

I do think that a part of him thinks that he isn't good enough for her because of her brightness and goodness.  Felicity happily inhabits a very morally grey world - not just inhabits, she thrives in it but the darkness that surrounds her doesn't define who she is. She fights to see the light and not be drowned in dark.  It's a choice for her, one that in a way showcases her intrinsic strength and I think Oliver is both a little awed by it and afraid to risk losing her influence in his life.  Still, when they are in the middle of a mission, he doesn't treat her with kid gloves.  He's not an understanding taskmaster.  He expects perfection (and sometimes miracles) and gets downright testy when he doesn't get them all the time.  

 

It's this true reliance and lack of holding back anything that the mission needs that tells me that he does see Felicity as an equal and not just someone to be protected and saved.  He doesn't ever want to see her hurt but he accepts that she is at risk sometimes and that she gets to make that call. 

 

Of course as we find out in season three he has a whole other reason why he's afraid to date her.  But dating her and loving her have nothing to do with the other in his mind.    

[Happy Harpy]

I noticed the chemistry between Oliver/Felicity since their first scene and enjoyed Felicity independently as a character.  I really liked her interactions with Walter and am sad that the friendship begun with those characters in Season 1 was abandoned.  (on a side note: I'm really bitter that the Walter/Thea father/daughter dynamic which would have really added more conflict and layers to the Thea's interactions with Malcolm was thrown away.  It's season 4 and I still think "Where's Walter?" because he really could've been part of storylines for Thea, Felicity, and Oliver)  I'm also sad that the rapport between Felicity and Quentin was never allowed to become a closer friendship. 

Preach it, it's my church! Arrow needs Walter (I need Walter on Arrow). He was a well-rounded, deeply connected character (with Thea, Felicity, and the financial/political circles). He would be the perfect Elliot Ness to Malcolm's Al Capone. And imo, the show needs an all-around good guy

moreover, he could be the light to Felicity's Darth Father

.

Quentin dating Donna is a good step in the right direction imo for a renewed and expanded Felicity/Quentin friendship. Hoping for no grave to thwart the master plan.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[catrox14]

I agree with everything Bkwurm1 said and I would add that for me thinking someone is or could be a hero is not the same as putting them on a pedestal. To me, pedestal putting (is that a phrase??) is thinking someone is better than all other human beings, that they have no faults and can do no wrong, and I don't think Felicity thought that about Oliver at all. She knew exactly what a mess he was but that he was a good man underneath it all who wanted to make things right for his city. She knows his faults and foibles.

 

Oliver teases Felicity about her babbling and he gets irritated with her. And he's at times been kind of an ass to her. I guess I don't see that as putting someone on a pedestal.  But that's just me :)

[wingster55]

In fairness to Thea re: not knowing of Oliver and Felicity...I can't imagine Oliver would say anything in s3 about it. And Thea wasn't really close to Felicity to ask.

Plus...not like there were any overt signs when she was around both IIRC.

[statsgirl]

Thea wasn't around Oliver and Felicity very much in s3 even after she found out that he was the Arrow.  I think there were subtle signs about his feelings about Felicity (e.g. how Felicity stood up to him in Canaries) but Thea wasn't paying close enough attention to him to see them.

 

I don't know if Oliver idealized Felicity or not (although to be in love with a person, you have to idealize them to some extent even 40 years down the line) but he must have known that she was the kind of girl who was made for a real relationship as opposed to the booty call with Isabel or the comfort FWB with Sara and he shut that out of his life completely at that point.  Even with Laurel, he only let himself think of a happily ever after when he thought he could get out of the vigilante game.

 

 I really liked her interactions with Walter and am sad that the friendship begun with those characters in Season 1 was abandoned.  (on a side note: I'm really bitter that the Walter/Thea father/daughter dynamic which would have really added more conflict and layers to the Thea's interactions with Malcolm was thrown away.

I wonder if they thought that they had to distance Thea from Walter because if he had been around, Thea wouldn't have turned to Malcolm as eagerly as she did.

 

But I agree, Walter is needed on the show, starting with mentoring Oliver and maybe Felicity in how to run a business and not lose your money.  I liked how in s1 he was the one to notice and respect her abilities, even if it was only an excuse to have Felicity on the show while they set up her joining the Team.

They seem to be "compatible opposites" in terms of personality.  Felicity is optimistic, if a bit socially naive and awkward.  She's also very isolated because of her work with Oliver and all his secrets.  Laurel right now is wounded and depressed though more grounded in the world.  I can see Felicity helping Laurel to heal a little and climb out of her depression.  I can see Felicity having somebody to talk to who can help her with her social awareness.

It's an interesting thought, and maybe they could have done it that way, but I'm not sure it would have worked. As much as I love this show, there are a lot of times when the acting has to make up for the flaws in the writing.  Katie Cassidy's decision to play Laurel completely uninterested in Oliver's employees for the first two seasons (e.g.The Undertaking) and her self-centeredness makes it very difficult to think Laurel and Felicity having an organic friendship.  (In a similar way, her belief that Tommy took advantage of Laurel affected the Tommy/Laurel relationship.)

 

Another wonderful parallel which makes me sad Moira died. Honestly her relationship with Felicity would've been delicious to unfold. They're so similar yet so fundamentally different

 

 

 

 

I love Barrowman's reacts as he leaves. With Moira, he knows he's going to win in the end even if she's got the upper hand now so it's all smug and self-satisfied.

With Felicity, there's a look of being impressed that she's not the push-over he thought she was.  He's still go the upper hand but maybe he needs to be a bit more careful than he thought he'd need to be.

 

IMO I never really saw them like that because if my brother looked at me the way Oliver looks at Felicity, then that would be so gross to me

Sabrina!

Edited January 1, 2016 by statsgirl

[wingster55]

With Felicity, there's a look of being impressed that she's not the push-over he thought she was.  He's still go the upper hand but maybe he needs to be a bit more careful than he thought he'd need to be.

 

I don't know...I view it as he's controlling himself because there's a time-sensitivity to there task but he's kinda pissed. 

[BkWurm1]

It's funny he obeyed at all given by then Oliver would have already set up his plan to work from the inside of the LoA with MM as his only asset. 

[johntfs]

I'm five episodes into Flash Season 1 and 3 episodes into Arrow Season 3.  I don't know all that much about Ray Palmer aside from he was The Atom in the comics.  That said, he comes off as a self-insert fanfic character written by somebody who fantasizes a lot about banging Felicity Smoak.  The idea that this is something that will probably end up happening makes me throw up in my soul just a little.

[lemotomato]

I'm five episodes into Flash Season 1 and 3 episodes into Arrow Season 3.  I don't know all that much about Ray Palmer aside from he was The Atom in the comics.  That said, he comes off as a self-insert fanfic character written by somebody who fantasizes a lot about banging Felicity Smoak.  The idea that this is something that will probably end up happening makes me throw up in my soul just a little.

That's the best summary of the Felicity/Ray relationship I've ever read. Wait until you get to 307.

[BkWurm1]

I'm five episodes into Flash Season 1 and 3 episodes into Arrow Season 3. I don't know all that much about Ray Palmer aside from he was The Atom in the comics. That said, he comes off as a self-insert fanfic character written by somebody who fantasizes a lot about banging Felicity Smoak. The idea that this is something that will probably end up happening makes me throw up in my soul just a little.

And now we all love you a little more.

They really don't figure out how to write Ray well until very late in the season. I'm afraid you are going to also have to deal with a horrid little thing we called Palmer Island. They don't really let Ray interact much with anyone but Felicity until like 4-16 and the tonal shifts and the OOC behavior forced on Felicity is not great. She's not stuck on Palmer Island all the time thank goodness.

In this case the one writing the fan fic was the show runner. There was early talk when they brought him on about his own spin off built around him (which nobody jumped at) so that seemed to translate into A LOT of character propping and isn't he great moments and since the only person allowed in his orbit until late in the back half is Felicity, yeah, you get the picture.

I swear they do FINALLY manage to write for him in a non smarmy way that is actually a lot of fun but you may or may not hate him by the time you get to that point. I did a LOT of fanwanking to explain his behavior. Ended up only hating him for one very obvious episode. You'll know it when you get to it. ;)

That's the best summary of the Felicity/Ray relationship I've ever read. Wait until you get to 307.

Don't scare the newbie! It's not as bad as implied. Edited January 2, 2016 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

I'm five episodes into Flash Season 1 and 3 episodes into Arrow Season 3.  I don't know all that much about Ray Palmer aside from he was The Atom in the comics.  That said, he comes off as a self-insert fanfic character written by somebody who fantasizes a lot about banging Felicity Smoak.  The idea that this is something that will probably end up happening makes me throw up in my soul just a little.

 

Damnnnnnnnn you're really making your way through these episodes rather quickly! Kudos to you :)

 Ended up only hating him for one very obvious episode. You'll know it when you get to it. ;)

Episode 317 and 408 will forever be the bane of my existence -_-

[bijoux]

That said, he comes off as a self-insert fanfic character written by somebody who fantasizes a lot about banging Felicity Smoak. 

  

That's the best summary of the Felicity/Ray relationship I've ever read.

Co-sign. That's really hitting the nail on the head.

[NumberCruncher]

Don't scare the newbie! It's not as bad as implied.

Uh, sadly it is that bad. I despise 3x07 with the entirety of my being. It's known to me as the episode where they had Felicity Smoak sacrifice her feminist principles because a rich man flashed his superficial bling at her. I still hate them for that.