Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Chaser]

At a convention she called JA and JP 'dicks.' I didn't think she meant it in an 'bunch of douche bags' kind of way, but more of a 'they wouldn't stop messing up my scenes' kind of way. I can't imagine KC's focused and professional method of working fit in well at all on Supernatural. 

 

I do remember rumblings of some type of problem on set. I didn't get the impression it was with the cast tho. I thought it was between her and some behind the scenes players.

 

That's why I was a little surprised that she was a network girl. 

[Starfish35]

Just an FYI, it was not a DUI. She was a passenger. It was for underage drinking when she was 20. Giving the name of someone else is a bad idea but it was 8 years ago.

Taking KC discussion to the Laurel thread.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Starfish35

[AyChihuahua]

I'm curious as to why Felicity is called a slut when she has had two sexual relationships in three years and one mild flirtation (Barry); and Laurel is not, even though she also had two sexual relationships in three years plus one mild flirtation (shiny boxer guy)?

[Guest]

I'm curious as to why Felicity is called a slut when she has had two sexual relationships in three years and one mild flirtation (Barry); and Laurel is not, even though she also had two sexual relationships in three years plus one mild flirtation (shiny boxer guy)?

 

Because Felicity's not in the comics and she eats the screen time and she cries too much and she's just the worst! Slut! 

 

That's pretty much the logic. Basically there is none.

[AyChihuahua]

I can't comprehend either of them being called sluts, because two sexual partners in three years...when I lived in NYC my roommate would have called two sexual partners a typical weekend.  But it's REALLY glaring when the two female characters are equal in sexual partners and one is called a slut and the other is not.  And Laurel's two sexual partners were also in fairly quick succession, AND were best friends with each other.  

 

Oh, then there's Thea, who's at three sexual partners in three years (idiot teenage guy Oliver caught her with, Roy, and idiot DJ), and I've never heard her called a slut.

[Guest]

But this is just the sad reality women face. The double standards are everywhere. 

[AyChihuahua]

But this is just the sad reality women face. The double standards are everywhere. 

I thought double standards were more men v. women, so a dude who sleeps with two women in a week is awesome, but a woman who sleeps with two men in a week is a slut.  This is women v. women.  I mean, is it basically just "I don't like her, therefore she's a slut"?  I don't like Laurel, but it would never occur to me to call her a slut.  Not because I'm a particularly good person, but because it's totally inaccurate.  Like, I despise Ray Palmer, but I'm not going to call him stupid, bc he's not stupid.  He's misogynistic and condescending and creepy, but not stupid.  Does accuracy in insults count for nothing?

 

I really don't understand people.

Edited October 20, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Guest]

Maybe double standards was the wrong term then, in this situation. But that doesn't stop them pitting two women against each other purely because one is from the comics and the other is not. I find anything is used to lessen Felicity's importance or value as a character on the show, including hurling inaccurate insults. It's just something negative to say tbh.

[AyChihuahua]

Maybe double standards was the wrong term then, in this situation. But that doesn't stop them pitting two women against each other purely because one is from the comics and the other is not. I find anything is used to lessen Felicity's importance or value as a character on the show, including hurling inaccurate insults. It's just something negative to say tbh.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to correct you, just to understand.

 

I think the sexual nature of the inaccurate insult is my main problem.  I mean, why go there?  THERE, specifically?  Call her a Mary Sue or a PITA or annoying or whiny or whatever, but why go to a sexual place for the insult?  I guess just deeply-ingrained sexism, so that sexualized insults are the go-to place for female characters one does not enjoy?  I find that quite unfortunate.  

Edited October 20, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Primal Slayer]

I've never seen her called a slut nor would there be a reason to call her one.

[Guest]

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to correct you, just to understand.

 

I think the sexual nature of the inaccurate insult is my main problem.  I mean, why go there?  THERE, specifically?  Call her a Mary Sue or a PITA or annoying or whiny or whatever, but why go to a sexual place for the insult?  I guess just deeply-ingrained sexism, so that sexualized insults are the go-to place for female characters one does not enjoy?  I find that quite unfortunate.  

 

Yeah, I think it's just internalized sexism/misogyny. It's a shame to see other women say these things too.

I've never seen her called a slut nor would there be a reason to call her one.

 

It's the go-to insult for Felicity at the Arrow Facebook page, sadly.

[dtissagirl]

For the sake of accuracy, I have seen fans call both Laurel and Sara names for sleeping with Oliver in S1 and S2, respectively. Which: gross. And now it's Felicity's time in the slut-shaming chair, hence that tasteless terribad recap that got the episode thread locked yesterday.

 

I agree with @Angel12d, it's all internalized misogyny. Both on the show that not only fails at building up lady relationships, but that has written women as competitors for Oliver's dick [Laurel vs. Sara, Helena vs. McKenna, Isabel vs. Felicity]. And fandom perpetuates it when it keeps pitching female characters against each other wrt their importance to Oliver. There can only be one girl sitting on his dick, so whoever is currently doing it, gets the brunt of the slut-shaming.

[AyChihuahua]

The word "slut" does not have to specifically be used to call someone a slut.  There's also "whore" and "hoochie" and "easy" and "she sleeps with every superhero" and "she sleeps with everyone she works with."  Those are all synonyms for "slut."

[Primal Slayer]

Obviously i know using whore/easy/hoochie are all used to put someone down negatively. The last two could easily go either way depending on how it is used. Saying either doesn't automatically make it negative to me.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[romantic idiot]

The moment they start writing L&O back together is the end of the show, so frankly I don't have worry about it because the show will be ending. 

 

But then the problem with that for me is that I will not be able to ever rewatch the show again. It will be a total HIMYM situation, and I get annoyed at having to ignore any mention of the show and scrubbing the show from my brain. 

[AyChihuahua]

But then the problem with that for me is that I will not be able to ever rewatch the show again. It will be a total HIMYM situation, and I get annoyed at having to ignore any mention of the show and scrubbing the show from my brain. 

Totally with you on HIMYM.  I instantly change the channel when any old episodes come up, even from the early seasons when I loved it.  Retroactively ruined the whole show.

[apinknightmare]

Obviously i know using whore/easy/hoochie are all used to put someone down negatively. The last two could easily go either way depending on how it is used. Saying either doesn't automatically make it negative to me.

Is there a good way to call someone easy or a hoochie? Either way it's passing judgment on her sexual choices and/or choice of dress.

[Primal Slayer]

That's why i said the last two that were listed. I said easy/hoochie are used negatively.

[apinknightmare]

That's why i said the last two that were listed. I said easy/hoochie are used negatively.

You wrote that using either of those words isn't necessarily negative. I was just wondering what you would consider a non-negative way to call someone easy or a hoochie.

[HighwayFlower]

Obviously i know using whore/easy/hoochie are all used to put someone down negatively. The last two could easily go either way depending on how it is used. Saying either doesn't automatically make it negative to me.

Anyone calls me any of those words, I'm taking it negatively.

[AyChihuahua]

You wrote that using either of those words isn't necessarily negative. I was just wondering what you would consider a non-negative way to call someone easy or a hoochie.

The commenter may have meant that there's a non-negative way to say someone "sleeps with every superhero" or "sleeps with everyone she works with."  I personally don't see how those could be anything but negative either, though, so your point stands.  I mean, I have worked with several hundred people, just like Felicity...if someone said I slept with everyone I've worked with, they're saying I've slept with several hundred people, and have no standards because I just automatically sleep with anyone once I'm within physical/working proximity of them, regardless of their personal romantic situations or mine, aka I'm a slut.  I mean, Felicity is currently working with the Board of Directors...so I guess she's slept with all of them, too?  Including the chicks, or just the dudes?  Including the cranky/angry dude?  Because if he'd hooked up with Felicity I would think he'd be less cranky/angry, but Oliver would be a whole lot more cranky/angry, because if Felicity sleeps with that guy or tries to sleep with Curtis, despite Curtis being both gay and married, she's also a cheater.  Did she sleep with her EA, Gerry?  She worked with him, so I guess yes, since she sleeps with everyone she works with?  Does the janitorial staff count?  When does Felicity actually sleep or even work with all this going on?

Edited October 20, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[HighwayFlower]

Why do I let myself get drawn into FB fights with people who apparently find nothing wrong with sister swapping!?!?

[statsgirl]

I think the sexual nature of the inaccurate insult is my main problem.  I mean, why go there?  THERE, specifically?  Call her a Mary Sue or a PITA or annoying or whiny or whatever, but why go to a sexual place for the insult?  I guess just deeply-ingrained sexism, so that sexualized insults are the go-to place for female characters one does not enjoy?  I find that quite unfortunate.  

It doesn't matter if it's sexual or something else. The point is the the insult.

 

I'm recovering from spending yesterday at our election and when you're at an election you have to spend hours and hours (10 - 13) with people who have political beliefs different from your own.  During a lull time, I was talking with a woman who complained that her favorite extremist TV news channel had gone under and she really missed it and especially one commentator.  I said "but he lies, I can prove that he's lying when he says things and the court cases against him was one of the reasons the network folded" and she replied "But I like listening to him." (She never listens to the public radio stations because she doesn't like what they say.)

 

The point of insults like saying that Felicity is a slut is because it makes the speaker/writer feel good to be able to say bad things about her.  No truth or logic need apply.

[Password]

The commenter may have meant that there's a non-negative way to say someone "sleeps with every superhero" or "sleeps with everyone she works with." I personally don't see how those could be anything but negative either, though, so your point stands. I mean, I have worked with several hundred people, just like Felicity...if someone said I slept with everyone I've worked with, they're saying I've slept with several hundred people, and have no standards because I just automatically sleep with anyone once I'm within physical/working proximity of them, regardless of their personal romantic situations or mine, aka I'm a slut. I mean, Felicity is currently working with the Board of Directors...so I guess she's slept with all of them, too? Including the chicks, or just the dudes? Including the cranky/angry dude? Because if he'd hooked up with Felicity I would think he'd be less cranky/angry, but Oliver would be a whole lot more cranky/angry, because if Felicity sleeps with that guy or tries to sleep with Curtis, despite Curtis being both gay and married, she's also a cheater. Did she sleep with her EA, Gerry? She worked with him, so I guess yes, since she sleeps with everyone she works with? Does the janitorial staff count? When does Felicity actually sleep or even work with all this going on?

You made my head spin with this post.

[kismet]

It doesn't matter if it's sexual or something else. The point is the the insult.

 

The point of insults like saying that Felicity is a slut is because it makes the speaker/writer feel good to be able to say bad things about her.  No truth or logic need apply.

 

The commenter may have meant that there's a non-negative way to say someone "sleeps with every superhero" or "sleeps with everyone she works with."  I personally don't see how those could be anything but negative either, though, so your point stands.  I mean, I have worked with several hundred people, just like Felicity...if someone said I slept with everyone I've worked with, they're saying I've slept with several hundred people, and have no standards because I just automatically sleep with anyone once I'm within physical/working proximity of them, regardless of their personal romantic situations or mine, aka I'm a slut.  I mean, Felicity is currently working with the Board of Directors...so I guess she's slept with all of them, too?  Including the chicks, or just the dudes?  Including the cranky/angry dude?  Because if he'd hooked up with Felicity I would think he'd be less cranky/angry, but Oliver would be a whole lot more cranky/angry, because if Felicity sleeps with that guy or tries to sleep with Curtis, despite Curtis being both gay and married, she's also a cheater.  Did she sleep with her EA, Gerry?  She worked with him, so I guess yes, since she sleeps with everyone she works with?  Does the janitorial staff count?  When does Felicity actually sleep or even work with all this going on?

Seriously, how does she find the time? Or the stamina? Haters should be jealous not judgy :) Enter sarcasm emoji.

 

Sadly, one might be able to find a logic or a basic rationale with why one woman is called it over another or why women use internalized misogyny on each other. But sadly it only explains the situation. And in the explanation there are often kernels of the truth lost or left out. But it doesn't remove the intention. The intention like @statsgirl is that in saying it, it makes people feel better or expresses an emotional feeling (subconscious or not). And that reasoning is inexplicable but also a sad reality in our society.

Edited October 20, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

A lot of Arrow familial relationships are FUBAR, but holy crap Joe West is awful.  Not only did he lie to his daughter about Barry being the Flash, but also never told her Barry was in love with her, and now it turns out

he told Iris her mom was DEAD.

 Holy shit.  

I'm sure she was a terrible mother, blah blah, but he told his daughter she was DEAD.

 And this is the guy who constantly shits on Oliver for being a bad guy.  He and Quentin should really start a Hypocrites 'R Us club.

 

(Also, the actress playing Iris's mom is terrible.)

Edited October 21, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Primal Slayer]

You wrote that using either of those words isn't necessarily negative. I was just wondering what you would consider a non-negative way to call someone easy or a hoochie.

The word "slut" does not have to specifically be used to call someone a slut.  There's also "whore" and "hoochie" and "easy" and [1] "she sleeps with every superhero" and [2]"she sleeps with everyone she works with."  Those are all synonyms for "slut."

 

Obviously i know using whore/easy/hoochie are all used to put someone down negatively. The last two could easily go either way depending on how it is used. Saying either doesn't automatically make it negative to me.

You wrote that using either of those words isn't necessarily negative. I was just wondering what you would consider a non-negative way to call someone easy or a hoochie.

The word "slut" does not have to specifically be used to call someone a slut.  There's also "whore" and "hoochie" and "easy" and [1]"she sleeps with every superhero" and [2]"she sleeps with everyone she works with."  Those are all synonyms for "slut."

 

Obviously i know using whore/easy/hoochie are all used to put someone down negatively. The last two could easily go either way depending on how it is used. Saying either doesn't automatically make it negative to me.

 

I said nothing about easy or hoochie when I stated the last two. Not the last two words that I just said in my sentence.

[kismet]

I was thinking about the resurrection of SL and it bother me that people are saying its similar to what OQ did for TQ in s3b because its a sibling bringing back a sibling. This statement is absolutely inaccurate considering that SL is deader than dead, while TQ was still techinically alive. TQ was not dead. By modern medical standards, she could have been kept "alive" via machines & meds for an undeterminable amount of time. Perhaps there might have even been experimental treatments & procedures, even MM suggested perhaps Star Labs. What her quality of life is and to what extent she is still alive is debatable. But her heart was beating & lungs were moving oxygen, therefore technically alive. SL is dead, buried and apparently mummified. There is no question or debate as to whether she is alive or not.

 

What I appreciated about OQ's decision to put TQ in the pit. Is there was an actual discussion between OQ & his loved ones + . Even if OQ was too stubborn to listen, the writers still put the conversation in the show. He didn't just hear about the pit, run to hospital, rip his sister off the hospital bed, carry her to NP & demand a dipping - all while lying to his closest friends & family. It felt like a realistic scenario the way the writers handled the story. There are thousands of families & medical professionals making similar decisions every day about what to do with loved ones/patients in similar conditions to TQ. And they are never easy decisions or discussions. Granted they are not victims of skewering by century old crazy guys who have access to a jacuzzi of special water. But the experience is the similar & relatable. It was Arrow at its best realistic & comicy all at the same time.

 

How the LL story is being handled is relatable in that people may want to bring their loved ones back from the dead. But how they are handling the story is showing no sensitivity to the issue. Like others have said, if they simply waited to have LL discuss it or take a pause to think about it. It might have been better. Also they could have waited to undig the body - thereby making LL at least appear to have been thinking about it. No offense, but there is no urgency to get SL into the pit like there was with TQ. SL is still going to be the same level of dead yesterday, today or tomorrow. There are just so many better ways they could be making this resurrection more about LL's love for her sister and less about LL, her self-absored crazy & how shocking we can be by showing a mummy in the last minute of the show.

 

It would have gone a long way to making this story better if LL had been shown to be thinking about SL at all before she dug her up. We had a whole season of OQ saying, showing & proving that he will go to any lengths to protect his sister. There has not been the same build up of the Lance sibling relationship. In fact, a lot of relationship has been about competition and proving to be better than the other. What better way to prove you are the best sister, than by bringing the other one back from the dead. So even if all the medical basics were the same (which they are not), the level of sibling relationship is completely different. I guess at the end of this long rant. The only similarities these stories share is that involve a pair of siblings and a magical jacuzzi. Every other element of the stories from writing, acting and editing is completely different. And frankly, its bothersome that they are trying to be compared as the same.

[BkWurm1]

But then the problem with that for me is that I will not be able to ever rewatch the show again. It will be a total HIMYM situation, and I get annoyed at having to ignore any mention of the show and scrubbing the show from my brain. 

I'm right there with you.  I'm glad I never watched Grey's Anatomy because killing the main guy in it would have ruined it for me.  I still can't enjoy the final season of Alias and that's with knowing that Vaughn was not really dead. 

 

A lot of Arrow familial relationships are FUBAR, but holy crap Joe West is awful.  Not only did he lie to his daughter about Barry being the Flash, but also never told her Barry was in love with her, and now it turns out

he told Iris her mom was DEAD.

 Holy shit.  

I'm sure she was a terrible mother, blah blah, but he told his daughter she was DEAD.

 And this is the guy who constantly shits on Oliver for being a bad guy.  He and Quentin should really start a Hypocrites 'R Us club.

 

(Also, the actress playing Iris's mom is terrible.)

On the plus side when Joe confessed to Iris, he explained his messed up thinking and apologized and even suggested what he did was worse that what he was covering up.   So Joe gets points that "others" do not. 

[apinknightmare]

I said nothing about easy or hoochie when I stated the last two. Not the last two words that I just said in my sentence.

 

Sorry - not trying to be snarky at all, but since you didn't quote the response you were replying to in your original post, I thought the "last two" you were referring to were the words you typed: easy and hoochie - not the last two examples in the post above yours. It wasn't really clear. 

[AyChihuahua]

Sorry - not trying to be snarky at all, but since you didn't quote the response you were replying to in your original post, I thought the "last two" you were referring to were the words you typed: easy and hoochie - not the last two examples in the post above yours. It wasn't really clear. 

I'm still trying to figure out when Felicity slept with/dated with Roy (who she worked with in the Arrowcave); Walter (who she worked with at QC); Digg (who she worked with both at QC and in the Arrowcave); Cisco (who she worked with on heroing); Joe West (heroing); Harrison Wells (heroing); Gerry the EA (Palmer Industries); and the unnamed cranky Director.  That's assuming we're only talking about her sleeping with every men she works with, and only the men who've had lines in the show.  Add in the unnamed/no lines men and/or add in the women and the list explodes.

[Password]

If you're going to be technical about it Felicity only slept with ONE person while she was working at Palmer Tech. She didn't sleep with Oliver when she was his EA and she didn't sleep with anyone else.

[AyChihuahua]

If you're going to be technical about it Felicity only slept with ONE person while she was working at Palmer Tech. She didn't sleep with Oliver when she was his EA and she didn't sleep with anyone else.

Agreed.  But even including Oliver, it would be absurdly inaccurate to say that Felicity sleeps with or dates "everyone she works with," as was stated on another thread. (Plus, of course, saying someone sleeps with "everyone she works with" is derogatory, as for most working people, everyone one works with would equal quite a large number of people, and imply very low standards.) 

[Whimsy]

We absolutely do not abide slut shaming of real or fictional people on PTV.  STOP with the slut shaming of Felicity.  We are deleting any posts that do so without warning. 

 

ETA:  Let me expand on this- ALL conversation about Felicity being a slut- either saying she is or saying she's not- is to halt.  It's getting nowhere fast. 

[dtissagirl]

This reviewer doesn't appear to like opposites attract couples, which fair enough I guess. Here I'm thinking Sara and Palmer might be quite fun to watch as she would just look at him with disdain and he would try to make her laugh. Could be fun.

To each their own in what they like in fictional romance, obviously. But I can't help it -- while IRL I completely understand going for like-mindedness, mutual interests and POVs, and finding someone who's similar to you, in fiction that's 1. SUPER BORING OMG YAWN; and 2. the kind of romance that I always see as unobtrusive on purpose. It's always written as an afterthought, or as if the storyteller is apologizing for ~daring to bring those icky romance-y beats to the story. So they're gonna keep it bland and sweet, boxed firmly in the background, without affecting the story in any way.

[statsgirl]

In real life, people who are similar tend to make better couples.  But this is TV and TV is about storytelling and growth for the characters.

 

He's missing how Oliver and Felicity have helped each other grow.  Can you see s1 Felicity being the badass who kicks Double Down in the groin and then grabs a machine gun and sprays (everything ) with bullets?

 

Plus I think of the low point in Felicity-as-a-character was when Ray accused her of keeping secrets from him (while keeping secrets from her since they first met) and have no judgement because of her girly feelings, and she went to him and apologized to him at the end of the episode for not telling him Oliver's secret.  The absolute worst Felicity's ever been.  The reviewer must have missed it?

Edited October 25, 2015 by statsgirl

[hogwash]

I don't think Ray and Felicity were all that similar. Sara/Oliver and Barry/Felicity were similar. They both had similar interests, attitudes, outlooks, etc. There's the tech geek thing for Ray/Felicity, but that's superficial at best. Like that stupid S03 episode (which one??) where they had Felicity listing to her mom all the ways Ray was perfect for her and all she had was "he's smart and likes Doctor Who." Sounds about right. I'm sure that's how much thought the show put into it too.

 

Plus I think of the low point in Felicity-as-a-character was when Ray accused her of keeping secrets from him (while keeping secrets from her since they first met) and have no judgement because of her girly feelings, and she went to him and apologized to him at the end of the episode for not telling him Oliver's secret.  The absolute worst Felicity's ever been.  The reviewer must have missed it?

 

I still can't believe they were trying to get him his own show....with that personality... You'd think by then they would have worked out all unsavory stuff from his first introduction, but 17 episodes later...

[Chaser]

Sara/Oliver and Barry/Felicity are similar characters. Ray and Felicity were characters with things in common. There is a difference.

Whether I enjoy similar characters or the opposites attract trope really just depends on the chatacters. Olicity is OTP for me but I understand the appeal of S/O and F/B. I wouldn't say no to either pairing if they hadn't gone with Olicity.

[AyChihuahua]

You guys need to include a trigger warning when discussing Ray.

 

I seriously think I hate him more than I've ever hated any character on television who was not MEANT to be hated.  I'd like to punch him really hard in his tiny little crotch.

[Genki]

I think for couples to work they need to have similar values which I think Oliver and Felicity do. They both want to make things better for people, they both are willing to sacrifice themselves, and their wants and needs, for loved ones. They both strongly believe in the crusade to save Star(ling) City. Actually I think that what had Oliver in a bit of a panic in 4.01, when he found out Felicity was helping Team Arrow-less (credit to the poster here who named them this), is the idea they they weren't as in sync as he thought.

 

As for their differences, I see it more as them complimenting each other's personalities. Like in the x-over when Oliver was lecturing Team Flash and Felicity stepped in with a "What Oliver means is...." and 2A & late 2B showed them working as a team is so many great ways, the stunts are physically obvious examples, but there are many scenes which show that Oliver knows how smart and capable Felicity is. Then there is the way they opened up to each other.

 

Oliver listens to Felicity's Advice, from "find another way" to "Don't fight to die, fight to live" and Oliver's believes in and supports of Felicity, demonstrated in, but not limited to, 2.23, 3.05 and all of S4 so far. He is also willing to do whatever she asks because he can trust her not to abuse this power she has over him, and I think nows she knows that she has this power as well. I don't think Felicity would have been as excited and confident going to PI to be "bossy" if it weren't for her relationship with Oliver and her position on Team Arrow and in the Flarrow-verse.

 

So, to me, they bring out the best in each other and complement each other, rather than being a case of opposites attract.

 

Sara and Oliver IMO had similar personalities but not the same values when they were together in 2B. They had different ways of solving problems and clashed over this a few times, also the similar nature in their personalities led them to being more closed-off and insensitive and grim IMO.

 

Sara was spot on about needing someone to harness the light inside of them and it not being other masks. I think there was also a lot of guilt involved with that relationship, from the way it started pre-Gambit, to Shado's death and the things they did to survive. Having said that, they were great in the field and awesome as a fighting team. (It will be interesting to see if they let that occur now that Sara is back, I suspect EPs may not want to highlight this, because comics.)

 

[WARNING] Ray talk ahead:

 

Whereas Ray/Felicity similarities, for me, as other's pointed was only superficial and Felicity was at times, so so many times, OOC with Ray, (throughout S3, but don't even get me started on 3.17). Ray appreciating Felicity and recognising her skills was nice, but the guy was moving way too fast for me to trust that it was love, especially considering his finance was dead less than 1 year. He was relentless and it think that gave Felicity an ego boost, but ultimately he didn't trust her, or her judgement, when it mattered, they make better friends than partners for me, excluding the fact that I dislike Ray so much as a character. 

 

Barry was OK for me as an LI for Felicity, since they they were similar in personality and values. But they did tend to seem younger and less mature when playing against each other than they do with other people.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Genki

[Guest]

I'm heart eyes for that post, @Genki. <3

[kismet]

@GENKI - expressed my thoughts far more eloquently. Beautiful post :)

 

But I may be the minority, but I actually think Oliver and Felicity are very similiar on the deeper things that matter in life. They actually tend to operate in a congruent manner with similar values. They complement each other when there are differences.

 

I'm not denying that S/O & B/F are also very similar to each other as well. Both pairings would have made sense to me.

 

!!Warning @AyChihuahua!! - This will be about Ray.

Beyond having some superficial interests, I actually think RP & FS were not much alike at all. Their values seemed to not always align. In many ways it was like S/O where on the surface some stuff is so similar that it looks like a perfect match, but when you scratch the surface it's not as perfect as it seemed. His business & work ethic seemed different. He was less of a team player. He definitely wants more glory & acknowledgement, flashier than she was. His intentions also seemed murkier than hers ever were. He also seemed to live in a very black & white world, while FS seems to thrive is a grey world. But in a few weeks we won't really have to worry about who or how RP can be similiar or not to FS because he will be jumping through time on LoT.

[bijoux]

Well, just everything that Genki and kismet said. Especially about Oliver and Felicity sharing core values and similarities on a deeper level. They just manifest those things differently.

[dtissagirl]

Imo, the core of the opposites attract trope is people who seem to be completely different finding a common ground between them, while maintaining their different personalities and narrative roles intact [this part is very important]. Oliver and Felicity = the jock and the nerd, but once you strip them off the labels, you find they have the same goals and the same beliefs. And their different approaches to life end up complementing each other in achieving their goals.

 

Felicity and Palmer had similar personalities. However, Felicity had to be written differently while castaway in Palmer's Island, so hello there gigantic warning sign that this relationship wasn't good for her. The moment her personality had to be changed to fit into a romantic arc, is the moment that relationship is doomed.

 

Oliver and Sara didn't suffer any major personality changes while together, but they had to change Sara's narrative role to fit that relationship. Until 213, Sara's narrative role was to serve as a mirror to Oliver's hero's journey. After 213 they stopped writing Sara as having her own hero's journey -- she was reduced to Love Interest -- and she only got back to her own narrative after she broke up with Oliver. If one of the characters in the romantic arc needs to be less than their full potential to fit a relationship = also doomed.

Edited October 26, 2015 by dtissagirl

[tv echo]

You could consider the perfect relationship to be one of synergy - where putting two elements together produces a combined effect that is greater than the sum of their separate effects.  Or, to quote Aristotle: “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” (2 + 2 = 5)

 

The opposite of synergy is antagonism - where putting elements together inhibits or makes at least one of the elements less effective.

Edited October 26, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

Roy and Thea also was a good example of opposites attract, and how that leads to a romance arc about two people figuring out how to complement each other. At first glance it's the billionaire socialite and the thief. And their meet-cute set up was actually adversarial -- but they found common ground, and helped each other be better.

 

A good fictional relationship has to give both characters some kind of change/betterment/development. The romance arc has to treat both characters as equal. They need to be both protagonist and antagonist for the love story to add to the narrative. And that happens through conflict -- and I don't mean conflict as in [melo]drama/angst, I mean it in the literary sense of what conflict means: the clash of opposing forces that drives all stories forward.

 

If only one of the characters get some development from the relationship, that's a problem. And that tends to happen a whole lot more you have characters of similar personalities involved in a romantic arc. [see: Felicity/Palmer. He's the one that got actual development in his hero journey. She didn't.] So you end up with imbalanced storylines. And us poor viewers [suckers] have to endure the secondhand embarrassment of watching THE WRITERS having to pretzel up characters into dramalhama, as to create the conflict that didn't exist -- because the characters came from the same mold in the first place.

[morakot]

I was thinking that Ray and Laurel could have made a good couple. She's pretty and bright and would be all behind his desire to be a vigilante. In fact, she'd love to be flying right there along side of him - and having Oliver not like him all that much would be a bonus. Laurel would be delighted to be with a man who tracked her down to her apartment, tagged her phone and bought out a restaurant for the night. Felicity could be there helping him make it all work, but it would be Laurel and Ray -- the saviors of Star city.

[kismet]

I was thinking that Ray and Laurel could have made a good couple. She's pretty and bright and would be all behind his desire to be a vigilante. In fact, she'd love to be flying right there along side of him - and having Oliver not like him all that much would be a bonus. Laurel would be delighted to be with a man who tracked her down to her apartment, tagged her phone and bought out a restaurant for the night. Felicity could be there helping him make it all work, but it would be Laurel and Ray -- the saviors of Star city.

I've been rooting for that coupling for months now. I personally think their delusions of grandeur in their abilities are a perfect match for each other. He was looking for a strong trophy wife and she was looking for a rich sucker for a husband, its a match made in TV heaven.

[lexicon]

I come from the @AyChihuahua school of thought aka Ray Palmer is such a douchebag no woman (irrespective of who it is) deserves to get stuck with him.

 

Plus the only thing that I can imagine worse than Laurel and Ray separately would be Laurel and Ray together. Unless of course it's in LOT, then Godspeed my friends because I will not be watching that and that way I'll never have to see either of them again (crossovers notwithstanding)

 

Also now that we've finally moved on from sister swapping, can we not move on to partner swapping? I'm still cringing from the Laurel/Oliver/Sara/Nyssa of it all. Adding Ray and Felicity to the mix would up the gross factor too much, which if their rumoured plans for a Ray/Sara romance have any credence, is going to happen anyway. Save Sara Lance, has she not suffered enough? 

[AyChihuahua]

I come from the @AyChihuahua school of thought aka Ray Palmer is such a douchebag no woman (irrespective of who it is) deserves to get stuck with him.

 

Plus the only thing that I can imagine worse than Laurel and Ray separately would be Laurel and Ray together. Unless of course it's in LOT, then Godspeed my friends because I will not be watching that and that way I'll never have to see either of them again (crossovers notwithstanding)

 

Also now that we've finally moved on from sister swapping, can we not move on to partner swapping? I'm still cringing from the Laurel/Oliver/Sara/Nyssa of it all. Adding Ray and Felicity to the mix would up the gross factor too much, which if their rumoured plans for a Ray/Sara romance have any credence, is going to happen anyway. Save Sara Lance, has she not suffered enough? 

He's really only even an iota tolerable if you pretend he came on the show in 3.19 (I haven't watched the episode but have watched gifs).  He was such a hypocritical misogynistic lying manipulative douchebag for the rest of the season.  And while I have HUGE issues with Oliver's behavior in S3 as well, I at least had two prior seasons of mostly being pretty okay with him or even rather loving him to fall back on.  I LOATHED Ray from the moment the viewer became aware he'd used Felicity to hack into Felicity's former company, which even leaving out the Oliver/Arrow of it all he'd KNOW she would hate herself for allowing.  And please don't say she's hacked, too, because she has always hacked to fight crime and save lives, while Ray the Cane Toad hacked to buy a company on the cheap.  He then continued to use her and manipulate her and lie to her, then had the utter gall to berate her for her having not told him one secret that was not hers to tell.

 

I hate him more than I have ever hated any character who wasn't meant to be hated, and he is the reason I will not watch LoT despite my Sara and Stein love.  (I never cared for Cold, but I did like him in his last Flash appearance, so he's growing on me.)  Part of the reason I hate him so much is that he's in many ways horrible in the ways that real people are horrible...saying how much he respects a woman while treating her like shit, for example.  Other than the flying robosuit he was basically a real-world douchebag.  Oliver's douchebaginess generally involved the League of Assassins, etc., so it's so far into fantasy that it doesn't raise my hackles quite as much, but as a female attorney, now living in central Indiana, I encounter Ray the Cane Toad's version of misogyny and manipulation pretty regularly.