Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[ohjoy]

Any thoughts on why Felicity didn't look back at Oliver when she left?  

My personal fanwank is that she knew she would not be able to keep walking if she looked back. She kept her left hand up near her neck/face as she walked away -- it seemed to me like she was covering her mouth to keep from sobbing out loud as she left. If she had glanced back and saw Oliver had turned around and was looking at her the way he was looking at her, I'm sure she would not have been able to handle it at all. She would have run right back to him.

 

 

Or maybe I'm just imagining what I would be doing if Oliver looked at me like that. ;-)

[AyChihuahua]

My personal fanwank is that she knew she would not be able to keep walking if she looked back. She kept her left hand up near her neck/face as she walked away -- it seemed to me like she was covering her mouth to keep from sobbing out loud as she left. If she had glanced back and saw Oliver had turned around and was looking at her the way he was looking at her, I'm sure she would not have been able to handle it at all. She would have run right back to him.

 

 

Or maybe I'm just imagining what I would be doing if Oliver looked at me like that. ;-)

Okay, I can buy that.  

[jay741982]

Any thoughts on why Felicity didn't look back at Oliver when she left?

Related to that thought, I feel like sometimes they've gone too far in making Felicity "strong," with regard to Oliver, in that it comes across as cold, instead. I loved her walking away in The Calm, but I think they took it too far after Oliver came back, and I loathed that she was draping herself all over Ray (I don't like that IRL...pda is fine, but not at work, and the draping, my God the draping), and especially draping herself all over Ray in front of Oliver. Then she walks away without looking back and apparently per the sneak peek has just accepted that he's gone, and isn't even plotting to get him back. I pretty much HATE that they're not plotting to get him back.

I figured Felicity didn't look back cause if she did she would've lost it. But of course if she did that people would've been saying she's too weepy and saying she's too cold if she doesnt.

Give Felicity a break - she has pinned for him (in my opinion), watched him be with Isabel because he "couldn't be with someone he really cares about," then watched him actually start to care about Sara and be with her, then finally get told he loves her and what good is it? So now for months she has had to work with him, support him, and prop him up all while knowing he loves her but refuses to be with her. She has mourned him once and watched him come back from the dead and know it didn't change a thing between them. Now, she has lost him again and maybe the poor girl just doesn't have much fight in her right now.

No matter how much grief Felicity is going through, she is always trying to help other people find their inner strength, hope, light. She has done it with Laurel, Oliver, Ray - I'm pretty sure she has also done it with Roy and Sara but I can't recall it right this moment. But hell, maybe someone needs to help her for a change. Maybe Felicity needs someone else to play cheerleader and help her find some hope?

I don't blame her for not scheming or plotting and pretty much just accepting that he is gone - let her feel hopeless for a little while. It's realistic. I just hope that if/when they do get Oliver back - nobody makes Felicity cry in season four - poor girl has been through enough this year.

Amen! I agree with all of this

Give Felicity a break - she has pinned for him (in my opinion), watched him be with Isabel because he "couldn't be with someone he really cares about," then watched him actually start to care about Sara and be with her, then finally get told he loves her and what good is it? So now for months she has had to work with him, support him, and prop him up all while knowing he loves her but refuses to be with her. She has mourned him once and watched him come back from the dead and know it didn't change a thing between them. Now, she has lost him again and maybe the poor girl just doesn't have much fight in her right now.

No matter how much grief Felicity is going through, she is always trying to help other people find their inner strength, hope, light. She has done it with Laurel, Oliver, Ray - I'm pretty sure she has also done it with Roy and Sara but I can't recall it right this moment. But hell, maybe someone needs to help her for a change. Maybe Felicity needs someone else to play cheerleader and help her find some hope?

I don't blame her for not scheming or plotting and pretty much just accepting that he is gone - let her feel hopeless for a little while. It's realistic. I just hope that if/when they do get Oliver back - nobody makes Felicity cry in season four - poor girl has been through enough this year.

Amen! I agree with all of this

[AyChihuahua]

 

No matter how much grief Felicity is going through, she is always trying to help other people find their inner strength, hope, light.  She has done it with Laurel, Oliver, Ray - I'm pretty sure she has also done it with Roy and Sara but I can't recall it right this moment.  But hell, maybe someone needs to help her for a change.  Maybe Felicity needs someone else to play cheerleader and help her find some hope?

I'm not just talking about Felicity, I'm talking about the whole team, which includes Diggle and Laurel and basically Thea, who really does bear some responsibility for this for choosing to leave with a known mass murderer.  And I'm talking about the next episode, which is three weeks later.  Everyone can certainly break down, but three weeks is enough for them to start thinking again.  

 

Hopefully it turns out they are trying to think of something.  I genuinely don't care how stupid or unrealistic it is ("We can get Barry to grab Ra's and put him in the pipeline") as long as it's something to show they haven't just given up.  He's not dead; he's in hell, and I can't believe they're okay leaving him there. 

[rainydawn]

Any thoughts on why Felicity didn't look back at Oliver when she left?  

 

Related to that thought, I feel like sometimes they've gone too far in making Felicity "strong," with regard to Oliver, in that it comes across as cold, instead.  I loved her walking away in The Calm, but I think they took it too far after Oliver came back, and I loathed that she was draping herself all over Ray (I don't like that IRL...pda is fine, but not at work, and the draping, my God the draping), and especially draping herself all over Ray in front of Oliver.  Then she walks away without looking back and apparently per the sneak peek has just accepted that he's gone, and isn't even plotting to get him back.  I pretty much HATE that they're not plotting to get him back.

 

I think she didn't because it was already hurting too much and like someone else said, she probably would have lost it if she looked back, but I have to say that some of the stuff they've done this year like the ones you mentioned from previous episodes actually made me question her feelings for Oliver, for the first time. I feel like they trusted we assume she loves Oliver the same way he loves her and that we like Felicity enough that we'll be on her sider no matter what re: MG thinking Felicity is bulletproof on tumblr. I loved the last episode and I'm looking forward to what's next but the journey to a couple being together is very important, and they didn't handled it very well this season IMO.

Edited April 28, 2015 by rainydawn

[kismet]

I've gotta agree with the people that said if she had turned around and looked at him it would have shattered her. She would not have been able to leave. She also said in episode told him that it was gonna destroy her to leave him and she may never forgive herself for leaving him behind. So I think she verbally let OQ know twice, just what walking away was going to do to her. I also found it in character for her not turn around, since she was trying to be strong for herself & OQ. Her character generally tries to play the strong one for the people she cares about, from her discussions with her mother, it seems like shes been playing that role since her father left. I also wonder if they shot multiple takes perhaps with her looking back and the editors felt her not turning made a stronger story. OQ's face showed enough heartbreak & despair for both of them.

 

As for the planning & scheming, I believe & trust that TA will do something to get Oliver back. I also think its very soon and they are still digesting the situation & processing through the 5 (now 7 because that is how Arrow rolls) stages of grief. So It would be unrealistic IMO for them to land in SC and automatically start planning a mission.

[Kordi]

In his recent article "'Arrow' Still Utterly Devoted To Romance Movie Formula" (posted in "Starling City Times"), Robert Dougherty writes:

 

"Arrow had its chance to finally transcend the worst of the romance formula a week ago, yet all the sex and kisses they got didn’t quite do it, at least to me – and now it is hard to see what could. To change that, it would have only taken one little moment of Oliver having any bit of faith, reconsideration, desire for the full life he denied himself and Felicity all year, and realization that he should try to have it before succumbing to Al Sah-Him. Instead, he did it without a second thought or a willingness to fight back in any way, and screwed up any chance of the only pro-Felicity/pro-Oliver choice he will make all season not coming out of utterly nowhere on May 13 – unless they’re pulling another fast one on us."

 

Wonderwall comments on this by saying:

 

"[...] Oliver knew he couldn't fight back which just added to the sadness of Oliver being ripped away from the ones he loves. He wanted to bring Thea back to life, so he paid the price for it. There is no fighting back when you're in Nanda Parbat. And Oliver knows that if he resists Ra's, that will give Ra's the power to kill everyone Oliver loves. Anyone who thinks our Oliver would ever take the chance doesn't really know him at all. [...]"

 

I agree with wonderwall that in that particular circumstances of 3x20 there was nothing Oliver could have done to fight back. On the other hand, I think that Dougherty is right when he points out that up until now we haven't seen Oliver questioning his decisions regarding Felicity in the first half of S3. But given all the things that happened to him (in 3x09 his near death experiencia with the hospital kiss as his last memory; now in 3x20 him making love with the woman who finally confessed that she loves him), he should have reconsidered his past choices, and he should have realized that they were poor.

 

What could have been different in 3x20? Before the episode aired, I, personally, was hoping for some deeper and more personal after-sex-conversation between Oliver and Felicity. I imagined Oliver saying something to the effect that he wished he had done something about his love for Felicity when he still had been having the chance, or that it was a pity that he had never allowed himself to be with her. Alternatively, I would have been happy with both of them daydreaming for a moment like: 'If there only was a way out, if there was anything we could do in order to escape this situation we find ourselves trapped in, we would take the chance and make things differently', or... I don't know. But the lines "So that happened. - I'm glad that it happened." were definitely not enough for me.

 

Dougherty's main concern is that any change of mind from Oliver's part regarding his relationship with Felicity - if he does change his mind at all during the last episodes of S3 - will come out of the blue and won't feel like an organic development that is a kind of natural/ believable result of what Oliver has learned during the previous episodes. I have to say that I share his concern.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Kordi

[wonderwall]

What could have been different in 3x20? Before the episode aired, I, personally, was hoping for some deeper and more personal after-sex-conversation between Oliver and Felicity. I imagined Oliver saying something to the effect that he wished he had done something about his love for Felicity when he still had been having the chance, or that it was a pity that he had never allowed himself to be with her. Alternatively, I would have been happy with both of them daydreaming for a moment like: 'If there only was a way out, if there was anything we could do in order to escape this situation we find ourselves trapped in, we would take the chance and make things differently', or... I don't know. But the lines "So that happened. - I'm glad that it happened." were definitely not enough for me.

 

Dougherty's main concern is that any change of mind from Oliver's part regarding his relationship with Felicity - if he does change his mind at all during the last episodes of S3 - will come out of the blue and won't feel like an organic development that is a kind of natural/ believable result of what Oliver has learned during the previous episodes. I have to say that I share his concern.

 

I get where he's coming from. I was really frustrated by the writers stalling Oliver's development this season because they usually save that for the last 2-3 episodes (which is exhausting). I think that we were all expecting more from the morning after. But I also don't think that you should just take the scene at face value. Just because not much was said in the morning after doesn't mean that they were just going to leave it at that if Felicity didn't have that plan.

 

I believe that if circumstances (or in this case, Felicity) didn't intervene, they probably would've had that moment where Oliver says "If there was a way out, we could take a chance". But circumstances did intervene and Oliver and Felicity didn't have enough time to talk before Felicity enacted her plan. I think a lot was left unsaid because Oliver was busy being unconscious on the ground.

 

Also, I simply believe that Oliver didn't have the realization that he could be with Felicity before episode 20 simply because he has been overwhelmed by everything that had been going on to actually be introspective and ponder his existential crisis. Here are the things that have happened since he came back:

• Felicity shut him out which probably proved Oliver that guys like him never get the girl
• He went to Lian Yu
• Then he went to Nanda Parbat to save Thea's humanity (which IMO was ridiculous)
• Oliver in episode 16 made positive steps regarding solidifying why he's the Arrow and starts getting closer to Felicity
• Ray Palmer in episode 17 basically went batshit crazy over Oliver. This would've been a natural episode for Oliver to make positive steps in coming to a realization that he CAN have both. But we didn't get it. 
• Then Quentin was on a manhunt for him in episode 18. Stressful situation. I can see why he wouldn't think about it.
• Episode 19 Oliver wasn't thinking about anyone else but Roy and that ridiculous metahuman. He was preoccupied.

 

And then episode 20 happened... I don't care what people say, but this episode was centered around Oliver saving Thea, not around O/F. Oliver was distressed about Thea. The only time he ever really let Felicity in and thought about his relationship with her (and incidentally took a giant step in his development) was when Felicity told Oliver she loved him and he pulled her glasses off. Even though the sex scene wasn't my favorite moment of the episode (but I still thoroughly enjoyed it), you can't deny the growth it showed that Oliver was finally open to being with her even if it was for one night. This paired with "then let's not say goodbye" and "I love you all the more for it" shows that Oliver is slowly changing his outlook on life, albeit a little late in the game. I mean, if we had this moment in the beginning of the season, I don't think Oliver would've ever taken off Felicity's glasses and they never would've shared that night. 

 

IMO now, if Oliver ever gets the decision to go back, he'll choose to be with her and I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise. I mean, after this episode can you actually imagine Oliver Queen going back home and not wanting to kiss the hell out of Felicity and actually be with her? I can't. 

 

I think Dougherty discounts the sex being just sex and it was hell of a lot more than goodbye sex too. It was more than that for Oliver. It was Oliver embracing who he is and what he can have for the first time this season which is why I think when he comes out of his brainwashed (ugh) stupor, his realization will feel organic. In the end, his actions spoke louder than his words for me in this episode. 

 

Now this doesn't mean I don't want Oliver to voice his declarations towards Felicity again, I definitely want more than "So that happened"... But I don't think episode 20 had enough time for that nor was it the time for that. I hope to see it in the last 3 episodes. But if we don't then yeah, I believe the writers would've dropped the ball on this. 

 

So, Kordi, I must say, thank you for your response! But I must respectfully disagree even though I may be in the minority in this :) I'm willing to wait to see how the next two episodes pan out before I make any assumptions/decisions. 

 

Also, I apologize if this entire post is nonsensical. I didn't have much sleep last night

Edited April 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[kismet]

Gotta Agree with Kordi that the post-sex conversation was a little lacking after the build-up for some many seasons. I would also have to say that waiting for Felicity to finally admit her feelings perhaps played a little into the casual tone afterwards. I don't know the whole entire R/F break-up was rushed to accomodate the love-making without cheating and should have been in 318/319. So I was not surprised that that they would rush & minimalize a O/F convo afterwards esp considering they were setting up the drugging escape plot. Plus not to throw gasoline onto a fire, but are we sure OQ even knew she had broken up with Ray? Because he still was pushing that just want you happy line. And honestly, I don't even want to consider a legitimate answer to that question, because I want nothing to ruin their 1st time together.

 

Its one of his more furstrating characteristics, but I wonder if Oliver not having an "I wish shoulda/woulda" conversation was his attempt to be noble and self-sacrificing. He realizes he is not going to be able to leave NP, so having that conversation may have seemed selfish to him and a mute point considering he knows he is unable to change circumstances. Basically, I think this conversation about wishing he had done things differently regarding his relationship w/ FS should have come in 319. That I think would have allowed the message to sink in and help to make the R/F break-up seem more important besides just avoiding the cheating. It would have shown that OQ has evolved, and moved further along his emotional journey. That losing Roy made him see some of his missed opportunities with his life, esp Felicity.  

 

Like most things this season the timing/pacing of the sex, O/F & R/F convos were either rushed or drawn out. I feel like S3 is the Goldilocks season of the Arrow, where they just can't find that perfect timing on so many of their story elements.

 

Edited to Add - Agree with most of what Wonderwall  said. Especially that this episode was truly all about Oliver's relationship & respponsibilities to Thea. O/F was something that happened but it was not the focal point of the story arc. Perhaps they should have separated the 2 events, but the writers chose to combine them.

Edited April 29, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

Edited to Add - Agree with most of what Wonderwall  said. Especially that this episode was truly all about Oliver's relationship & respponsibilities to Thea. O/F was something that happened but it was not the focal point of the story arc. Perhaps they should have separated the 2 events, but the writers chose to combine them.

 

This episode was the perfect example of too many things happening in the same episode. Not to mention I feel like the episode would've been better without the flashbacks. Regardless, yep. This episode was about Oliver saving Thea, and about Felicity saving Oliver. 

 

That being said, I WANT Oliver and Felicity to have that moment where they can talk about their relationship. I just don't think that it should've been in this episode because this episode wasn't centered around Oliver's identity issues. I hope to see it happen next episode or the episode after that. Also, I'm pretty sure Oliver will get back to his normal self by the end of next episode so yeah. Can't wait for his moments with Felicity after that :)

[Password]

Sorry for the subject change but I'm extremely concerned about Digg and Oliver. Every time I think about Oliver

doing something horrible to John

I want to cry. The writers sometimes, it seems, go out of their way to make Oliver do really (dumb) unbelievable things for the sake of drama.

This episode will be difficult I just know it.

[wonderwall]

I'm looking forward for a change in dynamic between Oliver/Digg whether it be temporary or not. I feel like the two need a change. IF they do become adversarial in the future then I hope that it's good angst. I also hope that Felicity doesn't get stuck in the middle of it. But I only want this if Oliver/Digg get back to their friendship at one point but become stronger for it :D

Edited April 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[tarotx]

I think the Olicity good bye scene was the morning after moment but we won't know how it went until we see what happens once EvilOlie is over. He said we won't say good bye. It was beautiful and emotional. The pay off to it is still to be determined.

[Password]

The problem is I'm not entirely sure the writers can handle good angst. I'll see what happena but I worry.

[tv echo]

Feeling a bit sad and sappy today...

 

[jay741982]

Feeling a bit sad and sappy today...

 

GUH these two kill me.

[tv echo]

It really makes a difference when you are able to watch an entire relationship develop on screen...

 

When Felicity went to the old Arrowcave at the end of 3x21 and collapsed into the chair weeping, I could really feel her grief - not just due to EBR's amazing acting (imo), but also because I just spent the past three years watching her and Oliver go through a lot of stuff together.  We saw her first meeting Oliver when they were strangers.  We saw their relationship slowly evolve and deepen over three years.  We saw Team Arrow's successes and losses.  We saw their highs and lows.  We saw them both risk their lives.  We saw their somber moments, humorous moments, happy moments, sad moments, intimate moments, and heartbreaking moments.  We really got to know Oliver and Felicity over time, and everything they went through together.  So yes, I felt her loss.

Edited April 30, 2015 by tv echo

[BunsenBurner]

The wedding between Al Sa-Him and Nyssa

Preacher for lack of a better name here: Is there anyone who against this marriage?

Felicity: Hell yes, I am

Preacher: How so?

Felicity: Nyssa is in love with Sara who we all know has been LP'd and Sara is still in love with Nyssa. (We know this because there's a spin-off!) Most importantly I'm in love with Oliver so this is NOT going to happen.

Felicity walks up to Oliver wraps her arms around his neck and then kisses him.

Oliver wakes up from whatever idiotic spell he is under and kisses her back. The kiss lasts a long while.

Nyssa slips away to be with Sara.

I've got nothing else this whole marriage thing is so stupid.

[TanyaKay]

So first they chained up Diggle & Oliver in Nanda Parbat and that scene turned out to be one of the biggest bromantic moment of the season.

I wonder who is gonna develop their bromance in chains this time around? Laurel & Felicity or Malcolm & Diggle or Ray & Katana?

[statsgirl]

Felicity and Malcolm. John Barrowman wants it.

[kismet]

As long as it is not Ray & Felicity, I'm good. Of course it will be R&F since MG just loves their moment & their chemistry in the scene :(

[jay741982]

The wedding between Al Sa-Him and Nyssa

Preacher for lack of a better name here: Is there anyone who against this marriage?

Felicity: Hell yes, I am

Preacher: How so?

Felicity: Nyssa is in love with Sara who we all know has been LP'd and Sara is still in love with Nyssa. (We know this because there's a spin-off!) Most importantly I'm in love with Oliver so this is NOT going to happen.

Felicity walks up to Oliver wraps her arms around his neck and then kisses him.

Oliver wakes up from whatever idiotic spell he is under and kisses her back. The kiss lasts a long while.

Nyssa slips away to be with Sara.

I've got nothing else this whole marriage thing is so stupid.

Sounds good to me

[Guest]

From the LL thread:

 

 

I don't understand how they can have the character of Green Arrow, on a show called Arrow, ultimately be paired with someone who is NOT Black Canary. Especially because she's a series regular and the female lead. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Don't the characters have like a 40 year history in the comics? Just like I could never see any iteration of Superman that does not portray Lois Lane as his true love, if they don't ultimately come back to this...it just seems like such a major, major deviation from the source material. Too major.

 

 

I totally understand what you're saying but for me it comes down to what makes something iconic. I think there's been discussion about this before but I had never heard of Green Arrow or Black Canary before and I know I'm not the only one. I had no knowledge of their relationship until I googled it when I started watching the show. So I feel like out of any of the comic adaptations, they could be more lenient with the source material.

 

Also, they have to take into account what works on paper doesn't necessarily work on screen. I have no doubt they initially intended for GA/BC but that changed when SA and KC didn't really have any chemistry and it just wasn't working naturally. It was only amplified when Felicity came on the show. 

 

Of course, this is not to say they won't go back to GA/BC at some point, especially as this could run for many seasons, but for now they've had to work around the thing that wasn't working and unfortunately for fans of the source material, that was Laurel and Oliver as a romantic couple. 

[Password]

Also I think this Oliver and (Dinah) Laurel are very different to their comic counterparts. So what worked in the comics because of their personalities, really does not work in this iteration. At this point the show keeps giving us reasons why the two of them should never be in a relationship every other episode. They grate on each other (and my) nerves, and not in a cute, sexy, banter type way. But a soul destroying, horrible to each other way.

[steeledwithakiss]

GA and BC are not Lois and Superman, be it in term of consistency through the comics, or iconic status. It wouldn't be that ground breaking for them to stray for that particular aspect of the GA story. In some ways they haven't, LL and OQ dated and it ended horribly. Also it was done before. OQ on Smallville ended with Chloe (yeah I know he was a secondary character but DC let them do that anyways). I don't know if anyone watched the Flash in the 90's but he wasn't with Iris in that version. She left after the pilot and his love interest was Dr. Tina McGee. I just don't think any couple has the untouchable vibe Lois and Superman have. And even them, the comic post reboot have Superman with Wonderwoman.

 

I agree there are just some things that don't translate on screen. You can try to sell it in a 2hrs movie but a tv show? Over 60 episodes? Anything could happen and I might be totally off base but this season cemented F/O as the main love story, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. It doesn't mean they'll end up together, because not all love stories have a happy ending, but that's what I'm seeing on screen.

 

Felicity is the one crying because Oliver has lost his soul. Laurel is brooding over milshakes because Nyssa is probably dead.

[Sakura12]

Oliver had the comic GA/BC relationship with Sara (who is the comic BC in everything but her real name). Lovers, exes, friends, crime fighting partners when the need arises. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Sakura12

[SonofaBiscuit]

I remember that I would occasionally check into TWoP during season 1, and that's how I found out that Oliver and Laurel were supposed to be the destined BecauseComics! couple.  I had no clue because I don't read comics, and the only big comics couple that I knew about was Lois & Clark.  I remember thinking that SA had fantastic chemistry with Diggle, and I loved Felicity, but I didn't bother shipping them because I knew that it was supposed to be O/L.  I think that the writers have really gone out of their way to make any sort of future romantic relationship between these two impossible (the sister swapping, the cheating, the lying).  And I think that the only people who are probably going to care about a major deviation from the source material are people who are actually familiar with the source material (and there's no way that this is a majority of the audience).  So yeah, I think that the show will be completely fine if they don't put Oliver and Laurel together...it hasn't hurt them thus far.

[Password]

I also don't have any comics history but I assumed Oliver and Laurel were meant to be because the hero always has that one girl/woman whom he loves and cherishes and wants but can't have because reasons. So I settled myself in for a similar journey only to find that I didn't particularly like the female and thought the hero became a donut around her. Not to mention their awful history. I was resigned to them. But this season pretty much erased that resignation that Lauriver will be OTP because of how connected Felicity is to Oliver's humanity and frankly his happiness.

The writers could always throw us a curve ball but it's not something I'm particularly worried about because I'd probably already be out.

[Chaser]

GA and BC are not Lois and Superman, be it in term of consistency through the comics, or iconic status. It wouldn't be that ground breaking for them to stray for that particular aspect of the GA story. In some ways they haven't, LL and OQ dated and it ended horribly. Also it was done before. OQ on Smallville ended with Chloe (yeah I know he was a secondary character but DC let them do that anyways). I don't know if anyone watched the Flash in the 90's but he wasn't with Iris in that version. She left after the pilot and his love interest was Dr. Tina McGee. I just don't think any couple has the untouchable vibe Lois and Superman have. And even them, the comic post reboot have Superman with Wonderwoman.

 

I agree there are just some things that don't translate on screen. You can try to sell it in a 2hrs movie but a tv show? Over 60 episodes? Anything could happen and I might be totally off base but this season cemented F/O as the main love story, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. It doesn't mean they'll end up together, because not all love stories have a happy ending, but that's what I'm seeing on screen.

 

Felicity is the one crying because Oliver has lost his soul. Laurel is brooding over milshakes because Nyssa is probably dead.

 

This is one part of this season I find hilarious. They have almost completely removed Oliver and Laurel from each others narratives. Laurel is closer to a woman she has known for a matter of months and who literally kidnapped her mother than she is to Oliver Queen. Laurel is more concerned with Nyssa than she has been all season with Oliver. And Oliver? Laurel isn't even in his orbit right now. When they are in the same room, he seems to just tolerant her.

[steeledwithakiss]

Yeah they have totally erased whatever bond they supposedly had. In a weird way I think it works because I had the impression Oliver was over LL and her entitlement since s2. He doesn't respect her opinion and consider her a liability. Every scene they had where she was sweet to him, while she was being horrible to her sister, felt out of place and unearned. The girl was more concerned about him then her own sister when she discovered their identities. I feel like the writers have realized they failed L/S and for that reason LL wanting to be BC to honor her felt hollow. Now they totally have her treating Nyssa how she should have treated her sister a year ago. Whatever, I still felt her defending Nyssa like she did and lamenting her going back to NP after they just realized they had lost Oliver forever, in front of Thea no less, completely out of place. I understand what they are trying to do but when you have TA+ Thea being ready to do anything to save Oliver (Roy faking his death for example) and then Laurel being all " if it comes to him or Nyssa I'll always choose Nyssa" :facepalm:

 

I can understand them not being able to trust each other, their history, the betrayals, but this is ridiculous. If they were to ever get them back together after this I'll laugh and laugh and then change channels.

Edited May 1, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[TanyaKay]

This is one part of this season I find hilarious. They have almost completely removed Oliver and Laurel from each others narratives. Laurel is closer to a woman she has known for a matter of months and who literally kidnapped her mother than she is to Oliver Queen. Laurel is more concerned with Nyssa than she has been all season with Oliver. And Oliver? Laurel isn't even in his orbit right now. When they are in the same room, he seems to just tolerant her.

 

While we are at this instant bond between Laurel and Nyssa, please do not forget that in addition to kidnapping her mother, Nyssa also poisoned Laurel with Tibetean pit viper snake which landed her in the hospital in 2x13. She also threw a glass at Sara for bringing Nyssa to their lives which lead to that famous lunge at the end of episode.

It is ironic indeed that after all that, Laurel had the nerve to question Diggle's anger with Nyssa - who despite being super cool badass is a cold ruthless murderer - because he was concerned for the safety of his wife and mother of his child. Funnily enough, Nyssa was cool with handing herself over but Laurel made that about herself - like everything else.

She was also not concerned at all about Oliver and in fact asked Diggle to let her deal with Oliver because Diggle was too close to him, hinting that Laurel is NOT at all close to Oliver. She was also delusional enough to think that she could actually take on Oliver Queen who has been trained by the likes of Yao Fei, Slade Wilson, Maseo Yamashiro in the past and the Demon's Head himself in current day!

[catrox14]

I look at this way.  Because comics!canon for Arrow went out the window when they made Oliver Queen into Batman-lite and they made Malcolm Merlyn the Magician and killed off Tommy. Roy was Speedy in some of the comics but is Arsenal here. Thea/Mia is not Speedy (yet?). I watch a TV show called Arrow which is BASED on the comic Green Arrow. I don't think it has to be 100% to the canon comics to make it viable or good.  So for me the LL/OQ pairing is not necessary to tell a good story. It's a different version of Green Arrow which will change how things are handled.   

[Carrie Ann]

I thought it was silly for Laurel to try to force the team to put Lyla and Nyssa on the same level, but I didn't feel it was silly for her to do it herself, if that makes sense. Like, I actually do find myself sort of believing this Laurel/Nyssa bond--not above what Nyssa had with Sara or anything--but they really are sort of in the same place right now. Laurel is the odd-man-out on Team Arrow for sure, and she's estranged from her father. She's clearly desperate for connection, and so is Nyssa. So I actually have no problem accepting that they have become very tight in the last couple of months, and that Laurel now feels more loyalty and trust for Nyssa than for Oliver or any member of Team Arrow. That is actually logical to me, based on her non-existent-to-hostile relationship with Oliver and her still tentative relationship with D&F. But it was ridiculous for her to expect Diggle (or Felicity) to value or trust Nyssa in the same way, particularly when it would require them to first distrust Oliver (which they didn't have reason to yet) or to do so at great risk to Lyla. Stop making Laurel do things like this, show!

[ruby24]

When I start watching a comic book show, if I'm not familiar with the character I look them up to find out what to expect in the broad strokes- you know, major character traits, powers/abilities, major villains, iconic love interests, etc.

 

I wasn't overly familiar with Green Arrow either (except for the one I saw on Smallville) but when I looked him up what I found is that his major love interest for the last 40 years has been the Black Canary, so that's certainly what I expected to see happen on the show. Some characters don't have one major love interest, and there's many minor ones, but this one did seem to have a "true love" that he's been linked to for quite a long time (volatile relationship or not- I think it being volatile probably makes it more true to the books, from what I've researched).

 

So, given that reality, it's still kind of hard for me to think that they won't eventually circle back to it at some point. To totally write off that possibility would be really be strongly deviating from the GA mythos (especially because they bothered to make her the lead female character and all). If there was a problem, it may have been in how she was introduced, with her not already being the BC. But now that she is, once she becomes a level crime fighting partner, I could certainly see them trying to get back to the two of them as that crime fighting duo that they're supposed to be, for the sake of being true to the spirit of the comics, at least.

 

I know it's different for the TV audiences, but these are still comic book writers writing these things, all kinds of hints for fans in these shows, etc. and that was one of the major cornerstones of Green Arrow, at least from what I've read, so I wouldn't be surprised it still ultimately happens.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ruby24

[apinknightmare]

I know it's different for the TV audiences, but these are still comic book writers writing these things, all kinds of hints for fans in these shows, etc. and that was one of the major cornerstones of Green Arrow, at least from what I've read, so I wouldn't be surprised it still ultimately happens.

 

Fortunately for us, they don't have the final say in that. Right now, the buzz comes from Oliver and Felicity, so the money men are going to make them follow that buzz. If at some point Laurel and Oliver start generating that level, then maybe they'll circle around back to it. 

[Sakura12]

Smallville's Green Arrow didn't end up with Black Canary either. He ended up with Chloe an original character. 

 

I don't think people think of GA and BC as iconic as Superman/Lois or even Flash/Iris. Which is why most modern incarnations have them not together, The New 52 comics, Smallville and now Arrow. 

 

The comics mostly have them on their own, Dinah has Birds of Prey and Oliver has his own things going on. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm actually not even sure that we're going to get a GA/BC crime fighting partnership from this show.  Their attitudes are pretty hostile towards each other, and Oliver doesn't seem too enthusiastic about the fact that she's out in the field, but he's past trying to stop her at this point.  At best, I see her as a Roy-level sidekick since she's never going to realistically have the skills that Oliver or Diggle do.

[ruby24]

Well, Smallville wasn't even about Green Arrow. But there still seems to be a long history there with that character, she's for sure his major love interest over all these years.

[Delphi]

As someone who actually does read the comics I had no interest in the completely horrid black canary green arrow relationship. Granted, I'm a huge fan of the Birds of Prey and other bat titles and tend mostly pick and choose which other heroes to read. However I still get mostly the whole picture, which was essentially shown to us in flashbacks. Oliver loves Dinah, a lot, but he's a dog. For their entire relationship he cheated on Dinah over and over again. Then she broke up with him and then he 'died' and Dinah finally began to find herself. When Oliver stopped 'being dead' they didn't resume a sexual relationship, but a friendly one. They worked together. They had the same friends. They eventually rekindled their relationship and got married and Dinah left him in jail.

Even in the comics their history shows that they are better as friends than lovers. They'll always be at a different stage of their life.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Delphi

[ruby24]

Yeah, it seems to be back and forth, on and off, but that's their thing. And the fact that they even got married shows how significant the pairing has been to the GA world.

[Delphi]

...They got divorced a year later or less. I don't see you're argument. You want Ollie and Laurel to get married just to break up?

[catrox14]

...They got divorced a year later or less. I don't see you're argument. You want Ollie and Laurel to get married just to break up?

 

I would take Ollie and Laurel getting married NOW just so they get a quickie divorce and get that out of way and then because!Comics is fulfilled and we can move on.

[dtissagirl]

It's a shame they killed Everyman on The Flash this week, because IN THE COMICS, Dinah marries Everyman pretending to be Oliver, then he attacks her in their honeymoon, and she kills him. Even their wedding was super healthy.

[Sakura12]

On TV they have to go with what works and Oliver/Laurel clearly was not working. In the beginning people were shipping Oliver/Thea just because they had better chemistry then him and Laurel.  That it the fault of the creators for failing to do a Chem test prior to casting their leads. If they had cast an actress better suited for the role and had chemistry with SA, then we'd be seeing a different story and probably be seeing the traditional GA/BC team. 

[ruby24]

The divorce doesn't matter really- the build up to the wedding itself was treated as a big event, because of the character's history (I'm sure they'll get back together at some point too). All I'm saying is that the GA/BC pairing is a hugely significant part of the Green Arrow history, and that it's one of the longstanding elements of that universe, so I'd still be surprised if they were to toss it out completely and never revisit it for the TV series- to do so would be major departure from "stay true to the spirit of the character" territory.

 

Still doesn't mean they won't do it obviously, of course they could. I'm just skeptical, given that there are comic book writers involved here who know that history.

[Carrie Ann]

I don't think anyone is denying that BC and GA have had a significant history in the comics, or that BC is the most significant of GA's love interests in the comics. But that doesn't mean that that pairing--even inside the comic world--has a level of untouchability or inevitability that means Arrow must pair them up again. Even if it were beholden to comic canon, which it's not. The show is beholden to its network, which cares only about its viewership. And there is no energy in the viewership around Laurel and Oliver together and plenty of energy against it. And comic purists, who would be the only people (aside from KC/LL fans) likely to be upset that BC/GA aren't together, also seem to dislike romance on the show in general, so they're not likely to fuss about it too much if it doesn't happen.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[ruby24]

I'm curious to see how the dynamic changes once she's really in full action as Black Canary though (better than now). Because that was the dynamic in the comics, the two of them as a crime fighting duo, and that we have not seen yet. It hasn't gotten there. If they did want to stay true to the spirit of the comics, that does present an opportunity for a new dynamic between them (one that's actually more in line with what's expected).

Edited May 1, 2015 by ruby24

[Chaser]

Personally, the comic-canon arguement always gets my back up because it seems to ignore what's actually happening on the show.

 

I hear/read about how its going to be GA and BC. Well great. Remove the comics and tell me what's going on in the show to support that that is where the show is going.

[tarotx]

I would get the Frustration of Comic fans if this pairing had a good comic history. They are on and off and he is never that into her except sexually and as a crime fighting partner. He cares about her but I feel that their relationship was more like the one Oliver had with Sara. Sex and friendship. Not true love.

[ruby24]

I understand that point of view of only sticking to the show thing, but I don't personally get that with comic book stuff in particular, because I remember on Smallville, when there were people who really seemed to be committed to pairings like Clark and Lana, or Clark and Chloe even, and I always wondered what's the point? He has to end up with Lois Lane anyway. And believe me, suffering through eight seasons of dragged out Clark and Lana stuff when the whole thing felt like a complete waste of time was irritating.

 

To me, if there's a major, decades long love interest from the comics (a major one, not just random minor ones who come and go), then that has to be what ultimately happens with the character in order to stay true to the broad strokes of that character. Even if there are diversions along the way. So I guess that's what I'm saying, the idea that they would never revisit that relationship (when we haven't even seen the actual dynamic they had in the comics yet) would be surprising to me.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ruby24