Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[looptab]

I went back to watch the big Lauriver scene in 1x22, and it really highlights the points you made about why that relationship fell flat with the audience (or at least, for me). 

 

Oliver tells her that she knows him better than anyone, and that he cares about her more than anyone. That's supposed to be the big love declaration that the whole season was building up towards, except.... it really wasn't supported by anything we had seen. Laurel didn't know Oliver best, because we saw how she was oblivious about his cheating/commitment issues before the island, and his vigilante job in the present. She didn't know him because we saw that all he ever did was lie to her. 

 

The big button they wanted to push was that, no matter what he had done, no matter who he was before, she had kept loving him because she always saw the good inside him. Which would be great - it's the kind of story that appeals to me, obstacles to overcome,  people who know each other on such a deeper level and have such a connection that, no matter what happens, no matter the mistakes, will always and inevitably love each other. Except...it didn't translate. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by looptab

[blixie]

 

why I didn't mind O/F's journey

 

I do mind ,and I think it's damaged a great deal of what made Oliver and Felicity charming, interesting, and entertaining to me. Right now I'm not happy with anything O/F related and I'm just tired and exhausted by the all of the stupid non organic bullshit keeping them apart. I have been since The Calm, and I'm honestly not sure why I'm still here except nothing else is on Wednesday at 8 while I'm making dinner.

 

But yes, of course there is more inherent rootability to Olicity than there ever was to Laurel/Oliver, because that pairing had no chemistry, a toxic back story, AND shitty plotting.

Edited April 3, 2015 by blixie

[Chaser]

Now that they're through with the L/O parallels of season 1, I think that the show can move on from that model. Hopefully we will see something fresh in season 4. Also, you can't deny that while some of the actions are similar, everything simmering underneath (the feelings) is completely different which is why I didn't mind O/F's journey as a couple this season.

That's where I am. I knew it was never going to be an easy ride. It's TV, its the norm. Do I wish things could have been done better? For Sure. No Doubt. But my massive list of issues this season don't really stem from Olicity. Individually I'm having problems (RAY/Oliver's logic fails), but together? Not so much.

[wonderwall]

I do mind

 

To each their own :) As long as they get back to their charming banters, shoulder touches, warm smiles, I don't care what happened this season tbqh :p

[kismet]

Of note, in season 1 in the episode where OQ said he no longer wanted to be on an island anymore he reached out to both Laurel & Felicity in the same episode. So there is that, don't know if it was intentional or not.

[Chaser]

Didn't Laurel shut him down?

 

I'm amazed at how much I don't remember about Oliver and Laurel's interactions. Some times I see GIFs and I'm like 'that happened?'

Edited April 3, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Genki]

Didn't Laurel shut him down?

 

She did.

 

And he didn't open up to Felicity but he did let her in by saying she could come to him. Also they made a point of making it known she was single, which seemed a bit heavy handed to me.

[kismet]

No she didn't turn him down. It seemed like one of their gradual attempts at friendship again. It was the episode when her Mom visits to investigate that pic of the girl that looked like Sara. Tommy is being distant because he is still trying to deal with OQ being the Arrow & lying to LL. He asks if she is alright, because she doesn't seem alright. They decide that they maybe should get food together sometime to talk. Its the episode where OQ told FS that is she ever needed to tell someone about her day she could talk to him, and it was one of his first prolonged shoulder grab/rub. I think its also the same episode where both Diggle & Tommy tell him that he can't live in isolation, that he'll never be happy that way. His response is that the life he leads does not leave room for a life and his happiness is not a priority right now.

 

Coincidentally, it was the same episode where OQ saves Roy from being shot on the subway. And he argues that Ray has the right to a second chance.

[lemotomato]

The big button they wanted to push was that, no matter what he had done, no matter who he was before, she had kept loving him because she always saw the good inside him. Which would be great - it's the kind of story that appeals to me, obstacles to overcome,  people who know each other on such a deeper level and have such a connection that, no matter what happens, no matter the mistakes, will always and inevitably love each other. Except...it didn't translate. 

Hmm... I never thought of it that way. I guess the "loved him despite his faults" thing didn't work for me because we were never shown that Oliver was a good guy before the island. In all the flashbacks he was spoiled, lazy, cowardly, and selfish. I had no idea why smart, ambitious Laurel would date him, and the fact that she couldn't/wouldn't see what a shit he was reflected badly on her. 

 

Ugh, and the lying, the superhero trope I hate the most. And it was especially egregious with Oliver/Laurel because he never stopped lying to her, from when they dated before the island, until the end of season 2 (or season 3, if we include lying by omission)

[statsgirl]

The "loved him despite his faults" didn't work for me because what we saw of them, Laurel didn't love him in spite of his faults, she completely shut down that he had any other than he kept dropping out of school. It was just that she ignored his cheating and his gossip rag party style and the drinking (and probably drugs), but when she said she had to help Sara with her trigonometry and he said "I don't even know what that is", she tousled his hair and said "You're so cute". Ugh.  I'm not a Laurel fan but why would any intelligent woman want to be with a guy like that?  It was like they were together but each thought the other was a completely different person than he/she was, or chose to see the other person that way deliberately.  I think Oliver must have been a good guy at heart because Thea loved him and he has a good heart now so maybe he didn't realize how much he was hurting Laurel, and she stayed with him because of what she perceived she'd get out of it (marriage to a billionaire who was also sexy and nice)..

 

Of note, in season 1 in the episode where OQ said he no longer wanted to be on an island anymore he reached out to both Laurel & Felicity in the same episode. So there is that, don't know if it was intentional or not.

Laurel drove up to Verdant looking for Tommy and Oliver told her he'd already left. Then he suggested he and Laurel get together sometime because he didn't want to be on an island any more.  She smiled, maybe touched him on the shoulder and left to follow Tommy home.  So he went down to the lair and told Felicity, who had been talking earlier about having no one to debrief her day with, that if she ever needed anyone to talk to, he was there for her. 

 

Not wanting to build more than the writers thought of, but if Laurel had been sensitive to Oliver's feelings, she would have realized that Oliver needed someone to talk to right then.  (Interestingly, this is the third time Oliver reached out to her since he was back, and the third time it didn't work.)  But in missing Oliver's cues that he wanted to talk to her, it forced Oliver himself to make a move to connect with someone, which fortunately for me turned out to be Felicity.  That's the point at which I thought Felicity was going to be the love interest and not Laurel any more.

 

Even if the plot beats are the same between s1 Oliver/Laurel and s3 Oliver/Felicity, I'm going to feel the Olcity sex is more earned than the Lauiver sex was, and not just because Tommy loved her more and made her a better person.  Oliver and Felicity know each other much better than Oliver and Laurel ever did. and they've been more selfless in their feelings for each other than Oliver and Laurel were.

Edited April 4, 2015 by statsgirl

[looptab]

Hmm... I never thought of it that way. I guess the "loved him despite his faults" thing didn't work for me because we were never shown that Oliver was a good guy before the island. In all the flashbacks he was spoiled, lazy, cowardly, and selfish. I had no idea why smart, ambitious Laurel would date him, and the fact that she couldn't/wouldn't see what a shit he was reflected badly on her. 

 

 

 

The "loved him despite his faults" didn't work for me because what we saw of them, Laurel didn't love him in spite of his faults, she completely shut down that he had any other than he kept dropping out of school. It was just that she ignored his cheating and his gossip rag party style and the drinking (and probably drugs), but when she said she had to help Sara with her trigonometry and he said "I don't even know what that is", she tousled his hair and said "You're so cute". Ugh.  I'm not a Laurel fan but why would any intelligent woman want to be with a guy like that?  

[...]

 

Not wanting to build more than the writers thought of, but if Laurel had been sensitive to Oliver's feelings, she would have realized that Oliver needed someone to talk to right then.  (Interestingly, this is the third time Oliver reached out to her since he was back, and the third time it didn't work.)  But in missing Oliver's cues that he wanted to talk to her, it forced Oliver himself to make a move to connect with someone, which fortunately for me turned out to be Felicity.

 

 

Yeah, she was supposed to be the one that had always seen the real him, even when he was a lazy, selfish jerk. And my issue with that is the same as yours, we were just told that they had this deep bond, personally whenever they were shown together in present time I felt nothing. And to be fair, this is considering thing just as far as season 1 went; they were going for the whole party boy (or as they like to say, bad boy, lol)/level-headed girl.

But then in season 2 they amped up the extent of his cheating, and he came off as a total sleaze, not just an immature boy, and she as the willfully blind aspiring social climber (that scene with her and Sara was a complete fail-we were supposed to see she had plan for a life with him because she loved him so, and she was dreaming of her happy ending, but to me it read "gold-digger"!).

 

That scene with the trigonometry isn't so much an issue to me, I read it as him joking/putting up the facade, "Too cool for school", and again, she supposedly knew that.

 

To be fair, when he told her he didn't want to be an island anymore, it's implied in later episodes that they did in fact start to reconnect. I don't remember if they actually showed it, but he mentions having to go to lunch with her to Diggle and Felicity, and even Tommy, IIRC. So she didn't stay and talk to him right then, but eventually she did.

Edited April 4, 2015 by looptab

[tv echo]

My recollection of season 1 is that Laurel and Tommy complemented each other - she made him want to be a better person, and he made her more likeable.  It was a startling contrast to the interactions between Laurel and Oliver that season.

[CabotCove]

Felicity and Oliver have truth, and trust; and Stephen and EBR could lit up a thousand suns just by being in the same room.

 

Subjective.

My recollection of season 1 is that Laurel and Tommy complemented each other - she made him want to be a better person, and he made her more likeable.  It was a startling contrast to the interactions between Laurel and Oliver that season.

 

I think that also subjective. I didnt see Tommy/Laurel being that "epic love" story for Laurel.

It seems way romanticized than what I remember now that he is dead, same with Tommy as a character. 

 

Which is disappointing because Oliver and Felicity's relationship is the furthest thing from Oliver and Laurel's, and that made it so appealing. Instead of taking hold of the sweet differences the writers latched onto inorganic differences to keep them apart. 

Agree, even for a non Olicity shipper like me, its sad to see such potential going to waste. Most fans would love a good story.

They are doing so much better with Thea/Roy Imo, I dont even like them but I can respect them and what they are doing. Even enjoy it.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Conell

[dtissagirl]

Subjective.

 

For the audience? Sure. But the audience is 8 to 10 episodes behind the producers and the network -- who are the people deciding on which onscreen chemistry they'll put their money into. And Hollywood really doesn't think chemistry is subjective.

[Angel12d]

I don't really remember much about Laurel/Oliver in s1 aside from how painful/awkward it was to watch sometimes because, personally, I don't think KC and SA have one iota of chemistry. Even if they had I was never going to root for them when we found out he'd slept with her sister. That's like a huge nope for me. Shudder.

 

But I can vaguely recall some similar beats that they're replicating with Felicity/Oliver this season but only in the most basic sense of guy loves girl, guy doesn't think he can be with girl, guy pushes girl away blah blah blah. It's like the EP's have a romantic blueprint and they don't have any desire or creativity to change it. The difference this time is that I've seen O/F grow from the moment they met and watched their relationship flourish to friendship and more so every beat they're hitting feels earned. With O/L we were just thrown into the toxic mess/ruins of what they used to be and told about it. I never saw why they were even together in the first place so nothing felt organic or believable, IMO.

 

Even now I still see L/O in s1 full of guilt and regret and trying to fix something that just couldn't be fixed and that's even more obvious to me when I see how deeply Oliver is in love with Felicity. There is really no comparison. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Angel12d

[NumberCruncher]

My recollection of season 1 is that Laurel and Tommy complemented each other - she made him want to be a better person, and he made her more likeable.  It was a startling contrast to the interactions between Laurel and Oliver that season.

 

This was my recollection too.  I thought Laurel and Tommy were adorable.  Tommy wanted to be the better man because of how he felt about Laurel and you could see Laurel's defensive walls come crashing down around Tommy.   Laurel smiled and laughed more in the short time she was with Tommy than she has for the entirety of the 3 seasons she's been on our screens. Why wouldn't I love watching that?  The problem though is that instead of fostering that relationship, the showrunners completely missed a creative opportunity to forward Laurel's development in favor of yet another artificial love triangle.  I can't help but wonder how  differently the BC storyline would have played out had it been focused around Tommy's death rather than Sara's.  The badly done addiction subplot probably could have been avoided and Laurel's grief would have been more believable to me as she had way more positive interaction with Tommy than with her sister--whom she clearly held a long-standing grudge with for sleeping with Oliver and spent the vast majority of S2 hating.  Sara could have still been brought back and ultimately been the one to train Laurel on how to seek vengeance as BC after she lost the man she loved.  Sara could have gone back to the LoA as a result of the whole Deathstroke plot and still been alive and kicking to then believably integrate into the new spinoff show.

[looptab]

Am I the only one who shipped Tommy/Thea? LOL I know, now we know that they were siblings, but I loved them.

[CabotCove]

For the audience? Sure. But the audience is 8 to 10 episodes behind the producers and the network -- who are the people deciding on which onscreen chemistry they'll put their money into. And Hollywood really doesn't think chemistry is subjective.

 

Because Hollywood can never be wrong? I dont think so. I can accept something as show canon, the writer's vision whatever, but their viewpoint/vision is not a universal fact to me. Olicity was never the show's original plan to begin with anyway, so I don't see why it matters why it matters that the audience is/was 8-10 episodes behind? now or before. Their progressing to romance is fairly recent, the audience, the media was already then watching the show then. In that case I wouldn't  say there was completely zero outside influence in moving in that direction. Even if it was all the writers/creators thoughts, I can accept it but it doesn't necessarily mean I have to agree with their views on chemistry or something else.

 

Yeah, I've seen so many complaints that the relationship just doesn't work as a romance, and it's like...how do you even know? They haven't been IN a romantic relationship. The problem isn't putting them together, it's keeping them apart.

 

Yeah I  dont get that thought process, how can you  be really sure it wont work, if they haven't really been given chance. 

 

However I cant say keeping them apart is more problematic, it works both ways. How can you know either that they can work if they have never been really together. Anyway what I find to be a more of problem is the hesitance/reluctance to put the two together and keep together, not how they keep the two apart but WHY they do it. It just doesnt spell confidence and pride in "our ship" of choice from them, Imo. If you thought two people were a "goldmine" together, then why would you want to keep them apart too long or insta breaking them up. I would think that the "goldmine potential" should be able to overide any "moonlighting" myth fear.  I cant even start to want to believe in something, when the writers themselves, seem like they don't believe in it. Maybe next season will be different, we will see. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Conell

[statsgirl]

I thought Tommy/Thea would have worked in another story, something more real life than this show.

 

I think Thea/Roy and Diggle/Lyla work much better as stories than Oliver/anyone because they are the 'B' story, not the 'A' one which the writers think has to be epic but really doesn't.

 

That's the problem in television writing, that when something works the writers think they have to break up the couple to keep people interested.  Oliver and Felicity will have problems in their relationship not because of who the characters are or that they would have these problems, the writers will force artificial problems on them to keep up the angst.  I hope they are organic and external but I'm not holding my breath.

 

For me, I prefer it when a couple gets together  and works together.  I think Castle, Bones, Murdoch Mysteries, Babylon 5, Deep Space 9 and host of other shows got better when the couple finally got together instead of stupid reasons to keep them apart.

 

To be fair, when he told her he didn't want to be an island anymore, it's implied in later episodes that they did in fact start to reconnect. I don't remember if they actually showed it, but he mentions having to go to lunch with her to Diggle and Felicity, and even Tommy, IIRC. So she didn't stay and talk to him right then, but eventually she did.

I don't remember anything about a lunch or talking to Laurel.  Do you know where?

Although there wasn't much time.  That scene was at the end of Salvation (ep 18) and by 20, Home Invasion, they were setting up Tommy's heartbreak and the sex scene. She did go to Oliver to get advice on her relationship with Tommy in the Undertaking but I don't think that scene does Laurel any credit.

 

 I thought Laurel and Tommy were adorable.  Tommy wanted to be the better man because of how he felt about Laurel and you could see Laurel's defensive walls come crashing down around Tommy.   Laurel smiled and laughed more in the short time she was with Tommy than she has for the entirety of the 3 seasons she's been on our screens. Why wouldn't I love watching that?  The problem though is that instead of fostering that relationship, the showrunners completely missed a creative opportunity to forward Laurel's development in favor of yet another artificial love triangle.

Tommy and Laurel fit together so much better than Oliver and Laurel but the writers wanted their GA/BC relationship.  Laurel knew what she wanted and went for it, and that's what Tommy, who hadn't first for anyone since his mother died (and maybe not even before that) appreciated her and needed her pushing him, which Oliver never did because he was the spoiled child who could do whatever he wanted. For Tommy, Laurel was a gift that he won by loving her and pursuing and it took him years which made it all the more special. For Oliver, she was smart and attractive and other guys envied him but there was never that sense of "I have something precious and I must value it" that you see with Tommy/Laurel, Thea/Roy, Diggle/Lyla and hopefully with Oliver/Felicity.

 

Tommy would have helped soften the sharp edges of Laurel if they had let him.  I can see that he might have been the love of her life, realized too late.

Edited April 4, 2015 by statsgirl

[CabotCove]

For Tommy, Laurel was a gift that he won by loving her and pursuing and it took him years which made it all the more special

"I have something precious and I must value it" that you see with Tommy/Laurel,

 

Right, this doesnt sound like she was some kind of object to him, at all. 

[statsgirl]

I don't think she was an object to Tommy, or even a prize he competed with Oliver for.  That's one of the reasons I liked them. For Oliver she was, well I won't say convenient but he certainly didn't value her the way Tommy did.  The two people who loved Laurel the most on the show for who she was as a person are Quentin and Tommy, followed by Dinah and Sara.

[kismet]

Tommy's death was wasted and would have made better motivation for LLs journey. Sara training her also would have strengthened their sister relationship and helped bury some of the strife. LL still could have turned to alcohol but sara could have had bigger role helping her of it. They still could have killed sara, the grief LL would have be exponentially more believable & raw. Thus when she now chooses the vigilante life it would be less about trying to be her sister & more about honoring her. Again another wasted opportunity by the writers.

[TanyaKay]

Am I the only one who shipped Tommy/Thea? LOL I know, now we know that they were siblings, but I loved them.

 

Oh I shipped them real bad. I shipped them before I shipped Olicity. Tommy was so so good with Thea.

[kismet]

Oh I shipped them real bad. I shipped them before I shipped Olicity. Tommy was so so good with Thea.

Beyond the pilot, I always got a brotherly vibe. But they still were great together. Thea just seems better with roy & laurel always seemed better with tommy.

[CabotCove]

I don't think she was an object to Tommy, or even a prize he competed with Oliver for.

 

Yes,  but this kind of wording, seems to suggest so IMO. 

 

"gift that he won by loving her and pursuing"

"something precious and I must value it "  

 

And its not just this wording that feels strongly suggestive of this to me, but its how the show went about with it, like Tommy is supposed to get rewarded with Laurel for his good behavior or something. Never mind what the woman want, its all about what Tommy feels entitled to and must win. That doesnt sound to me like a healthy relationship at all. 

 

I get that he was good at times to Laurel but  he didnt need to be rewarded with romantic feelings for  that. Sure Laurel seemed to like him back genuinely after a while, thankfully, however I feel there was still some problematic romantic undertones with L/T Imo .  Sends a wrong message if you become the nice guy to women and pursue them even when they say NO repeatedly, eventually you will be gifted with your prize/trophy.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Conell

[apinknightmare]

I liked Laurel with Tommy because we got to see them be happy together without really anything tainting it. Even in the flashbacks with Oliver, when he and Laurel seemed happy, it always had an air of grossness around it because you knew Oliver was being a smarmy douchecanoe and either cheating on her with her sister or some random or was about to cheat on her with her sister or some random. 

[TanyaKay]

Beyond the pilot, I always got a brotherly vibe. But they still were great together. Thea just seems better with roy & laurel always seemed better with tommy.

 

Roy Harper is the best boyfriend in the history of CW so there is no denying that he is very very good for Thea.

I am talking about initial episodes - right until Thea tried to kiss him. There was great potential between the two and could be explored if they had not decided to make him her half brother.

I liked Tommy far too much for him to be saddled with Laurel who either judged him, or treated him like a boy that needed to be reprimanded all the time. The way she treated him during their double date with Oliver & Helena still rankles me. She was not a good girl friend - to either Oliver in the flashbacks or to Tommy during season 1.

[Genki]

There was better chemistry IMO, between Collin and Willa than him and KC, so I shipped Tommy/Thea too. Little did I realise that his chemistry with KC was the best for Laurel's character.

 

I noticed the Tommy/Laurel chemistry more in the 3.14 flashback episode, now the Tommy/Thea siblings reveal took them off the table and we've seen KC act against different guys. I think it will be almost impossible to find someone for Laurel because of it. KC plays better as a straight woman against a less serious guy, so I think there might have been a hint of chemistry, for me, with the Laurel/Ray scene. Which was one of her best scenes for KC since the shark scene way back in the season. 

 

For SA & KC I think they actually have Anti-chemistry they just don't play well off each other at all. I recently rewatched the Laurel/Oliver hook-up in 1.22 and they wasn't even a smidgen of chemistry there and SA (and KC to a lesser extent) were working really hard to produce something but nothing. Even though I thought d the jump leading into the carry was pretty hot, the rest of the scene was leaving me unaffected.

 

I know chemistry is subjective but the is something behind it, even if you just look at the stats on AO3 or fan fiction Oliver/Felicity dominates with sheer number of fics in the fandom compared to anyone else and Laurel is almost always paired with Tommy if the story allows for it.

 

 

I liked Tommy far too much for him to be saddled with Laurel who either judged him, or treated him like a boy that needed to be reprimanded all the time. The way she treated him during their double date with Oliver & Helena still rankles me. She was not a good girl friend - to either Oliver in the flashbacks or to Tommy during season 1.

 

I didn't love Laurel and Tommy on my first watch of S1, but hindsight makes me really wish they hadn't killed him off.

[statsgirl]

 Even in the flashbacks with Oliver, when he and Laurel seemed happy, it always had an air of grossness around it because you knew Oliver was being a smarmy douchecanoe and either cheating on her with her sister or some random or was about to cheat on her with her sister or some random. 

For me, entirely separately from the cheating, they always seemed so phoney with each other. Oliver did what Laurel wanted not because he wanted it or because he wanted to make her happy, he did it because it was the easiest thing to get her to stop pushing him.  And with Laurel, it always seemed to me like she was not being entirely honest in her behaviour with him, or she was working toward a goal.  Even when the Queen's Gambit was about to leave and she showed up to give him a picture of herself so he wouldn't be lonely, I thought "How self-involved do you have to be to does that?"  If he thinks he'll miss you that much and wants to take your picture with him, he'll take one of the ones he has.

 

I know now that there were plot reasons for the scene (Oliver phoning Sara to say keep away while Laurel's here and Oliver having Laurel's picture to hold on to in s1) but I can't but think that if Oliver really loved Laurel, he would have had her picture tucked away somewhere in his luggage or on the boat from before. Yeah, he would have been a real douche for taking Sara and Laurel's picture but he's the hero, he would have recovered during the five years of hell. As it is, I was left with the feeling that Laurel pursued and Oliver accepted and it was a pretty shallow relationship all in all.

[CabotCove]

I liked Laurel with Tommy because we got to see them be happy together without really anything tainting it.

 

OK, not that I necessarily agree with this, but I get where you are coming from and sounds like good reasons to ship something to me.

 

 As for me, given a choice to resurrect at least one of the two MIA dudes, I would definitely choose Ted over Tommy for Laurel. I find L/T.G, to be the opposite of L/T.M, ..... respectful of agency and partner, mutual and mature Imo. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Conell

[steeledwithakiss]

I never liked Tommy and Laurel. She, in my opinion, didn't love him. I mean she was all "Tommy who?" as soon as Oliver wanted her back. Her being heartbroken after his death looked to me more like guilt than anything. And insecured Tommy really got on my nerves, he had reasons to, but I kept thinking just dump her she so doesn't love you.

[apinknightmare]

OK, not that I necessarily agree with this, but I get where you are coming from and sounds like good reasons to ship something to me.

 

Oh, I didn't ship them, I just generally enjoyed their scenes together. I was always annoyed by Laurel's scenes with Oliver, because I always thought the show was selling a false bill of goods with those two.

[kismet]

OK, not that I necessarily agree with this, but I get where you are coming from and sounds like good reasons to ship something to me.

As for me, given a choice to resurrect at least one of the two MIA dudes, I would definitely choose Ted over Tommy for Laurel. I find L/T.G, to be the opposite of L/T.M, ..... respectful of agency and partner, mutual and mature Imo.

Well Ted is not dead so that helps his cause. Most of the reason they got rid of ted seems to be actor availability. I wonder why they can't just write her as having an off screen relationship with him. He did seem good for her. And then bring him back when they can or just recast him in s4.. They did recast with sara.

I love Tommy, but I think we'll only get him in dreams/ hallucinations. But that would be fine with me, any Tommy is better than no Tommy.

Edited April 4, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

I never liked Tommy and Laurel. She, in my opinion, didn't love him. I mean she was all "Tommy who?" as soon as Oliver wanted her back.

Oh, totally.  But that's where the opportunity for growth could have been  for Laurel and maybe also for Oliver, finding out what is real love and what is the fake. 

 

Is it the alpha male who is the life of the party? Or the guy who thinks of throwing a fund-raiser for the cause you believe in?  Is the prom queen (cuz you know Laurel was) or her little sister who was always in her shadow but cares about others more?  Or the geeky girl you never would have noticed in high school who calls you on your crap and encourages you to be a hero rather than sweeping your sins under the rug?

 

If only they hadn't been afraid to end the Oliver/Laurel OTP.  It wouldn't even have had to be a permanent end, just an end to it for the moment.

Edited April 4, 2015 by statsgirl

[Password]

I'll just move this to the spoiler discussion thread.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Password

[Morrigan2575]

that's a spoiler, you should put it behind the spoiler bar

[Chaser]

 

oops.

Edited April 4, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Lady Calypso]

OK, sorry to change the subject.

Felicity sleeps with Oliver the episode after she and Ray end it.

Are we comfortable with this?

 

I'm gonna respond in the Spoiler discussion thread.

Edited April 4, 2015 by jessied112

[wonderwall]

moving to the spoilers thread

Edited April 4, 2015 by wonderwall

[icandigit]

Felicity's been giving Oliver the 'I'll drop this zero and get with a hero' eyes recently. No reason for it not to be on.

Edited April 4, 2015 by icandigit

[looptab]

I don't remember anything about a lunch or talking to Laurel.  Do you know where?

Although there wasn't much time.  That scene was at the end of Salvation (ep 18) and by 20, Home Invasion, they were setting up Tommy's heartbreak and the sex scene. She did go to Oliver to get advice on her relationship with Tommy in the Undertaking but I don't think that scene does Laurel any credit.

 

I checked, it was in episode 20. Oliver first tells Dig and Felicity he has to go to lunch with Laurel, then goes at CNRI but she is busy and asks for a raincheck, and while he is still there comes in the family of that kid. So yeah, they didn't actually go in the end, it was all in the same episode where they set up Tommy's epiphany.

 

 

Oh I shipped them real bad. I shipped them before I shipped Olicity. Tommy was so so good with Thea.

[...]

I am talking about initial episodes - right until Thea tried to kiss him. There was great potential between the two and could be explored if they had not decided to make him her half brother.

I liked Tommy far too much for him to be saddled with Laurel who either judged him, or treated him like a boy that needed to be reprimanded all the time. 

Agreed! I think that's when I started to resent Laurel, she came between Tommy and Thea, ahaha. 

[wingster55]

Gotta say..this season's been uneven as we all know..but I love the emphasis on Thea and Oliver this season. About damn time. 

[nksarmi]

I liked Laurel in the first season (though in retrospect, they should have done loads of things differently with her character since they knew she was always going to be BC) up until the point where she slept with Oliver.  I thought that was just bad for both of them.  For Laurel, its kind of like - ok I understand Tommy dumped you in a rather insane sort of manner and Oliver has come back and is kind of acting like the man you always thought he would be (actually from her point of view, he was acting kind of skitzo, but at least some of the time, he was acting like the man she thought he could be lol).  But this man still cheated on you with. your. sister.  It's reasonable that she would forgive him, but still be in love with him? No.  Still be attracted to him?  Ok maybe, but he was proclaiming his love for her, not asking for a hock-up.  She has no reason to trust him with her heart....ever.  And how little could she have cared about poor Tommy if she wouldn't wait until there was NO chance they would reconnect?

 

I just thought it was an ass-move by Oliver to tell Tommy to go fight for Laurel and then go seduce her himself.  That was a major friend fail moment.

 

I think I would have gone back to liking Laurel just fine in season two if they hadn't made her spiral in to self-pity, Arrow loathing, and drugs/booze.

[Ang]

Replied (maybe a little incoherently) to some of the ideas on Laurel in her thread. 

[Free]

I liked Laurel in the first season (though in retrospect, they should have done loads of things differently with her character since they knew she was always going to be BC) up until the point where she slept with Oliver.  I thought that was just bad for both of them.  For Laurel, its kind of like - ok I understand Tommy dumped you in a rather insane sort of manner and Oliver has come back and is kind of acting like the man you always thought he would be (actually from her point of view, he was acting kind of skitzo, but at least some of the time, he was acting like the man she thought he could be lol).  But this man still cheated on you with. your. sister.  It's reasonable that she would forgive him, but still be in love with him? No.  Still be attracted to him?  Ok maybe, but he was proclaiming his love for her, not asking for a hock-up.  She has no reason to trust him with her heart....ever.  And how little could she have cared about poor Tommy if she wouldn't wait until there was NO chance they would reconnect?

 

I just thought it was an ass-move by Oliver to tell Tommy to go fight for Laurel and then go seduce her himself.  That was a major friend fail moment.

 

I think I would have gone back to liking Laurel just fine in season two if they hadn't made her spiral in to self-pity, Arrow loathing, and drugs/booze.

 

Sadly, IA and I feel that this is where her character crossed the line of no return and unfortunately will never recover with the way her character is written and executed.

[statsgirl]

I just thought it was an ass-move by Oliver to tell Tommy to go fight for Laurel and then go seduce her himself.  That was a major friend fail moment.

I thought it showed how selfish and toxic they were for each other, past and present.  Oliver told Tommy to fight for her but as soon as he thinks he can get with Laurel himself, he's over there at her place.  Laurel had just finished telling Tommy she was going to fight for him, and as soon as she hears Oliver is still interested in her, she's climbing him.

 

The addiction arc wouldn't have bothered me if they had done it properly and used it to develop Laurel's character.  She's stopped by police for driving drunk, pulls the "Do you know who I am?" card and there are no consequences.  She is a bitch to Sara when Sara comes back, there's the dinner from hell, and then Laurel and Sara make up at the end of the episode.  Paul Blackthorne gave it his all, but it was a bad done arc.

Edited April 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

Just rewatched the sex scene between Oliver and Laurel and realized 1) I don't remember any of it past the koala move (and I think I remember that mostly because of the bloopers) and 2) that scene came across as more of a setup for them to be discovered by Tommy. I mean, the camera spent more time on Tommy's reaction than on Oliver and Laurel. So it really wasn't about them-them.

 

But yeah, a stupid move for both and one of the many, many, many reasons I rejected them as a couple. When you're feeling so bad for the other guy and hating the "main couple" for causing him pain, there is something extremely wrong.

[Genki]

I think they decided to stop going forward with Lauriver as OTP by the time the hook-up came around, it seems like they wanted to move past it as quickly as possible, hence out of nowhere renewed feelings and the added bonus of making the pairing even more toxic.

I wonder if Tommy would have survived the earthquake if they hadn't stopped the Lauriver storyline.

[TanyaKay]

Just rewatched the sex scene between Oliver and Laurel and realized 1) I don't remember any of it past the koala move (and I think I remember that mostly because of the bloopers) and 2) that scene came across as more of a setup for them to be discovered by Tommy. I mean, the camera spent more time on Tommy's reaction than on Oliver and Laurel. So it really wasn't about them-them.

 

But yeah, a stupid move for both and one of the many, many, many reasons I rejected them as a couple. When you're feeling so bad for the other guy and hating the "main couple" for causing him pain, there is something extremely wrong.

 

Oh yes, that scene was actually a set up for Tommy's most heroic moment - his eventual sacrifice to save Laurel's life. It was NEVER about actualization of their love.

The season 1 ended not so triumphantly for either The Arrow or Oliver Queen. One device went off and half the Glades was still levelled, his mother was imprisoned and we later found out that Merlyn really was not killed. He then went to Lian Yu to lick his wounds in privacy. Tommy, on the other hand, emerged to be the true hero of that season. He saw his best friend and the woman he loved betray him but he still chose to forgive them both - he saved the woman from death and absolved his friend of any guilt before he died. In fact, if any one emerged a decent human being and a true hero after season 1, it was Tommy. Diggle, Felicity & Roy Harper were the other decent characters - everyone else has done something shady or criminal or cruel to hurt others.

[NumberCruncher]

I think they decided to stop going forward with Lauriver as OTP by the time the hook-up came around, it seems like they wanted to move past it as quickly as possible, hence out of nowhere renewed feelings and the added bonus of making the pairing even more toxic.

Guggenheim pretty much admitted that was the case back in 2013:

Still, the EP added, "the final four episodes really are about this love triangle of Oliver, Laurel and Tommy. That’s the love triangle that we began the series with so we felt it appropriate to finish the season with a focus on it. That love triangle really starts to come to a boil with Wednesday’s episode, Episode 20. That kicks us off for the remaining three episodes of the season after that. The truth of the matter is that we sort of have to play that out first before we can play out Oliver and Felicity. But I love the fact that people are shipping them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/arrow-olicity-felicity-oliver-emily-bett-rickards_n_3144718.html

To me, it always sounded like they knew they were ready to move past Oliver/Laurel before Olicity even became a thing.