Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen: The Breaker Of Chains, Mother Of Dragons Etc

[GraceK]

this is great.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

episode three was the last good episode and it truly was great.

four was bad and five was obscene. And I’m skipping six.

I'm something of a completist, so I have to watch the end.  I want to see what happens to Drogon, the Dothraki, etc.  I agree with your assessment though, I loved episode three (a lot of people didn't, but I was fine with how they dispatched the Night King).  From there it took a left turn into the toilet.  

As far as I'm concerned, these last three episodes are imaginary.  I don't accept this ending.  This Daenerys is a completely different character than the one we saw for the first seven and a half seasons, and no one can tell me different.  

I love the video GraceK posted above.

Also, I found this article.  I'm not a feminist, but this reminds me why I love the Daenerys character:

https://www.bustle.com/articles/27993-7-daenerys-targaryen-quotes-that-make-us-want-to-be-better-women

[FemmyV]

On 5/13/2019 at 10:06 AM, GraceK said:

I feel she was gaslighted and pushed into this. It didn’t have to be this way.

This. And if anyone pushed it into being, it was Bran, of all people. Bran, who dictated how, when, and why Jon was to be informed he'd been banging his auntie. Additionally, he got an assist from Sansa, whose hostility set the mood for the rest of the Northerners to follow.

[Minneapple]

21 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

This. And if anyone pushed it into being, it was Bran, of all people. Bran, who dictated how, when, and why Jon was to be informed he'd been banging his auntie. Additionally, he got an assist from Sansa, whose hostility set the mood for the rest of the Northerners to follow.

How about Dany owns her own actions. Nobody made her go and burn innocent people. She has agency, she has power and she took it and laid waste to King's Landing. 

[rmontro]

27 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

This. And if anyone pushed it into being, it was Bran, of all people. Bran, who dictated how, when, and why Jon was to be informed he'd been banging his auntie. 

I would really like it if it turned out Bran was the scheming mastermind prick behind the whole thing, all with the single purpose of putting himself on the Iron Throne.  But for some reason, I can't shake the feeling he's back in Winterfell, mostly concerned with having some sort of medieval roller coaster built for him to ride on.  

6 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

How about Dany owns her own actions. Nobody made her go and burn innocent people. 

Didn't happen.  Remember, these last two episodes are imaginary.

[Portia4844]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

How about Dany owns her own actions. Nobody made her go and burn innocent people. She has agency, she has power and she took it and laid waste to King's Landing. 

I didn't imagine Dany ending up on the IT and ruling as the end game.  I also didn't imagine her descent into madness and destroying KL after they surrendered.  Both in the books and on the show, declaring her titles, demanding everyone bend the knee, and her right to the throne became tiresome.  I wanted her to learn to become a leader who didn't need dragons to threaten people into submission.  Her power was having dragons and she used that power to destroy the lives of so many innocent people.  

This seems like a believable GRRM ending for her but possibly with it being more heartbreaking.  We read and/or watched her grow from an innocent young girl to becoming consumed by her belief in birthright and the need to be loved and admired for it.  At this point, it's difficult to feel any sympathy for her. 

It will seem odd though if the writers give her a death that is brutal while letting Cersei go out in the arms of Jaime.  

[ursula]

8 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

Her power was having dragons and she used that power to destroy the lives of so many innocent people.  

... In the books?

[RobertDeSneero]

27 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

It will seem odd though if the writers give her a death that is brutal while letting Cersei go out in the arms of Jaime.  

For GRRM, the universe isn't always just and people don't always get what they deserve.  We see this when people who deserve to live end up dying gruesome deaths, but the other side of this is that sometimes people who deserve to die end up living or at least having a much kinder fate than they deserve.  It's only odd if you expect justice.  The game of thrones goes on and we don't enter a golden era of justice now that the Big Bad has been defeated.

[Portia4844]

19 minutes ago, ursula said:

... In the books?

If you're asking if I think the books gave her power through the dragons that she wouldn't have had otherwise, then yes.  However, I never viewed her as evil or thought she was capable of using her dragons to slaughter innocent people needlessly when if she won the IT.  

[Andromeda]

Have you seen Angry Joe's take?

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Have you seen Angry Joe's take?

Yes I just posted that video too!!

[Umbelina]

That video is just some dude having a meltdown because his TV crush isn't getting the story he wanted her to have.  It's just whinging, without much insight of any kind except "see, watch me have a meltdown like your average pre schooler."  I don't get the appeal.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Umbelina

[Minneapple]

Honestly I always thought Dany's biggest problem was the dragons. She had an amazing arc in season 1 when she got herself out from under Viserys' influence. But once the dragons were born, her character stagnated. There is zero difference between her character in season 2 and in season 8. I will burn your city to ashes, blah blah, dragons fire and blood iron throne blah blah. She just finally followed through on the threats to burn everything to the ground. 

Of course this is hardly unique to Dany on this show. Jon died and was revived and barely batted an eye after that. At least Buffy had a reaction to being brought back from the afterlife. Jaime, too, had a "redemption" that mattered zero to his character. 

[GraceK]

Well, it’s a rant. Second, it’s funny. Third, he also has other in depth reviews, this was just a rant. Hence the title. And Besides that, everything he says is true. And where do you get the impression it’s because he has a crush on Daenarys? That’s insulting.  He also spoke about Jamie, and Brienne, and Cersei and Euron.  

[Andromeda]

Another good one.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Andromeda

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Another good one.

Stop posting my videos!!

( I’m just kidding 😂😂😂) I posted this one too. We have the same taste apparently 🤣

Edited May 15, 2019 by GraceK

[GraceK]

Made me laugh 

[Umbelina]

Thoughtful reviewers talk about the problems of such a fast turn for Dany, and I agree.  It was too rushed.  The whole damn final season is way too rushed.

The entire beginning of this focuses on Dany, Collider.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[ulkis]

Someone pegged down for me why I didn't want Dany to win the iron throne, besides that I was indifferent to her because her character was so isolated from all the other characters.

No one ever wanted her back. even when everything turned into a clusterfuck they weren't like "oh if only Danearys would come."

I feel for the Dany fans though. It's a harsh twist, the way they did it.

[Andromeda]

14 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Stop posting my videos!!

( I’m just kidding 😂😂😂) I posted this one too. We have the same taste apparently 🤣

Oops!!! I am so behind! Sorry! LOL.

This guy is hilarious and he has some really funny visuals in his rant.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Andromeda

[MarySNJ]

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

maybe if Dany was a friendly visitor from Esoss who just wanted to have dinner with them, the "outsider" thing might hold weight. But she did have power over them and expected them to show proper deference. She waltzed in there like she owned the place and expected them to call her queen.

She is a Queen (of Mereen) and also a Khaleesi. She has an army and loyal supporters who follow her because they believed in her. If she feels entitled to some respect, I don’t think it’s unreasonable. If she was a foreign queen just stopping by for dinner, surely they would give her that basic courtesy. The real question is whether she’s their queen. Sansa thinks not, Jon says yes. 

[Umbelina]

[GraceK]

The memes are great this season. They help  a lot. 

[MarySNJ]

This review is interesting. https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-of-thrones-the-bells/

I’m putting it here because it’s mostly about Daenerys although it mentions others. I don’t necessarily agree with everything in the perspective but it does make some really good points. 

[RobertDeSneero]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Thoughtful reviewers talk about the problems of such a fast turn for Dany, and I agree.  It was too rushed.  The whole damn final season is way too rushed.

In terms of pacing her story, I think it is important that she be seen as heroic after the battle at Winterfell and her turn comes afterwards.  It has to be quick enough so that we don't think the other characters are even dumber for not noticing and trying to stop her.  At the point that the bells ring, we're not supposed to think that her torching the city is inevitable.  

[RobertDeSneero]

4 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

This review is interesting. https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-of-thrones-the-bells/

I’m putting it here because it’s mostly about Daenerys although it mentions others. I don’t necessarily agree with everything in the perspective but it does make some really good points. 

I disagree with that somewhat.  I think she had a battle plan that included burning the city.  I think Tyrion tried to prevent that by sending Jaime to try to get Cersei to surrender.  I think Dany snapped when the bells rang and decided to burn it all down anyways.

[Portia4844]

2 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

For GRRM, the universe isn't always just and people don't always get what they deserve.  We see this when people who deserve to live end up dying gruesome deaths, but the other side of this is that sometimes people who deserve to die end up living or at least having a much kinder fate than they deserve.  It's only odd if you expect justice.  The game of thrones goes on and we don't enter a golden era of justice now that the Big Bad has been defeated.

True enough for GRRM.  I'm just not convinced that he would give Cersei and Jaime the same way of dying but in some sort of twisted way maybe this counts as her brothers being involved in her death.  

[Heckler52317]

I was really surprised by how things turned out at KL. I've allowed myself to really be a Daenerys fan and I really thought she had done it! Hoping against hope she ends as Queen of the 7 Kingdoms- albeit a feared and unloved one- vs getting cut down by (likely) a Stark....

[RobertDeSneero]

3 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

True enough for GRRM.  I'm just not convinced that he would give Cersei and Jaime the same way of dying but in some sort of twisted way maybe this counts as her brothers being involved in her death.  

I think there is a good chance he kills them off before the last book.  The show gave them both a bigger role, I suspect.

[GraceK]

48 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

This review is interesting. https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-of-thrones-the-bells/

I’m putting it here because it’s mostly about Daenerys although it mentions others. I don’t necessarily agree with everything in the perspective but it does make some really good points. 

This is brilliant.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, ulkis said:

No one ever wanted her back. even when everything turned into a clusterfuck they weren't like "oh if only Danearys would come."

That's not exactly true.  Yara and Theon sought her out, seeking her aid in Westeros, and had to outrace Euron to ask for her help.  Varys sought her out to aid her return to Westeros (his eventual about face on that was exceptionally badly written).  Jon Snow and Davos went to get her aid in the fight against the White Walkers, but also got behind her campaign to unseat Cersei.  

Now, regarding all these hints that pointed to Dany eventually going mad or turning evil super villain:  I don't think anyone has ever denied that she has some violent tendencies, or that this ending wasn't teased.  

Teasing an ending is not the same as guaranteeing it, however.  For instance, they completely ignored Cersei's valonqar prophecy.  That ending for her was telegraphed, not only in the prophecy but in her stormy relationship with Jaime - but regardless, it never came to pass.

And Dany talking about taking back what is hers and burning down cities is pretty generic "war talk" and saber rattling, and does not speak at all about burning cities after they've surrendered.

And even if she did have a dark side, you have to balance that with her good side.  She was always betrayed with a good heart up until the last few episodes.  She was always on the side of protecting women, children, and the weak, and for freeing the slaves.  Even if you recognize her dark side, her actions at KL were not consistent with her good side.  I don't see how the character we were shown was capable of committing this atrocity.

[ulkis]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

That's not exactly true.  Yara and Theon sought her out, seeking her aid in Westeros, and had to outrace Euron to ask for her help.  Varys sought her out to aid her return to Westeros (his eventual about face on that was exceptionally badly written).  Jon Snow and Davos went to get her aid in the fight against the White Walkers, but also got behind her campaign to unseat Cersei.  

Didn't the latter two only ask once she was back in Westeros? 

It took a long time for anyone to go looking for her, but to be fair, that's also because of the meta reason that that is when they were ready to have Dany sail to Westeros and not before.

[Umbelina]

They needed Dragonglass.  Dany was where the Dragonglass was.

Also, technically, Cersei did die with the Valonqar's hands around her neck.

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They needed Dragonglass.  Dany was where the Dragonglass was.

Also, technically, Cersei did die with the Valonqar's hands around her neck.

And dragon fire. Davos specifically tells Jon in season seven that dragons spit fire, which should be effective against wights. So yes, they absolutely sought her out for help and an alliance. They needed her dragon glass and dragons. And armies. Can we stop with this Dany is worthless narrative? 

Edited May 15, 2019 by GraceK

[GraceK]

Seriously the way things turned out? She should have said fuck you to Jon . Why bother? If she’s only the “Queen in her own mind”, she doesn’t owe them shit. She should have concluded her war with Cersei before she lost Her dragons, and half her army fighting this war. The wall would still be standing since the NK wouldn’t have Viserion and then if Jon still wanted her help he could have approached her as the “ official Queen of King Landing”.  All she got from helping the North was scorn, spite and LOSS. 

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

This review is interesting. https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-of-thrones-the-bells/

Reading this makes me wonder:  If the destruction of King's Landing would have happened back in season one or two, would people have found it so shocking?  

Back then there were a lot of people praising Game of Thrones because it was showing a world where cold hearted manipulation and politics got you further ahead than morality.  Ned was held up as proof that "Nice Guys Finish Last", and the schemers were shown to be the ones to get ahead, it didn't matter how cruel they were.  

I'm thinking Dany's destruction of KL back then might have gone down a little smoother, because

1)  It was (arguably) the right political move - inspire fear and rule by might

2)  We were not as emotionally invested in this world yet

3)  We might have viewed it through a more "medieval" eye, instead of a more modern, peace oriented, politically correct eye, especially if they didn't have all the ground level scenes with Arya demonstrating the devastation on a personal level.

NOW let me make it clear, I'm not condoning any of that.  I believe morality and honor are important, and I'm not a big fan of the early cynical view that manipulation is great.  And no, innocents should not be slaughtered in war, and certainly not after the enemy has surrendered.  I'm just passing on my thoughts on how that article got me thinking.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Portia4844 said:

If you're asking if I think the books gave her power through the dragons that she wouldn't have had otherwise, then yes.  However, I never viewed her as evil or thought she was capable of using her dragons to slaughter innocent people needlessly when if she won the IT.  

I'm asking if the bolded happened in the books:

3 hours ago, Portia4844 said:

Her power was having dragons and she used that power to destroy the lives of so many innocent people.  

[RobertDeSneero]

25 minutes ago, rmontro said:

For instance, they completely ignored Cersei's valonqar prophecy. 

 I don't see how the character we were shown was capable of committing this atrocity.

To be clear, mention of the valonqar is a book-only thing.

Dany has been show to be willing to treat her enemies brutally.  She was shown arguing with Tyrion that the common folk of King's Landing are her enemies and not innocent hostages.  Therefore, she is willing to treat them brutally because she sees them as enemies.  It's a simple syllogism.

[rmontro]

11 minutes ago, GraceK said:

She should have concluded her war with Cersei before she lost Her dragons, and half her army fighting this war. The wall would still be standing since the NK wouldn’t have Viserion and then if Jon still wanted her help he could have approached her as the “ official Queen of King Landing”.  All she got from helping the North was scorn, spite and LOSS. 

Someone posted that in the books, they expected Cersei to be disposed of first, and for Daenerys to die in the battle against the wights.  That may or may not be true, depending on how strictly you believe GRRM's statement that the TV show's ending was his ending, broad strokes aside.

But I actually expected such an ending to be a possibility, largely because of the Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa prophecy.  And I would have preferred such an ending, because that way there wouldn't be this character conflict with her turning evil/crazy/whatever.  Regardless, as you say, if she hadn't gone to help the North so quickly, she could have avoided all the loss that came her way (Qyburn hadn't even built the Super Scorpions yet).

2 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Dany has been show to be willing to treat her enemies brutally.  She was shown arguing with Tyrion that the common folk of King's Landing are her enemies and not innocent hostages.  Therefore, she is willing to treat them brutally because she sees them as enemies.  It's a simple syllogism.

That's true, but it's already Dark Dany that argues that the common folk of King's Landing are her enemies.  They had already changed her personality.  Before this point, she had always bent over backwards to take the advice of her advisors, even when she thought it was against her best interests.  But by the scene you are describing, Varys had already betrayed her, and Tyrion was on his last legs. 

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, rmontro said:

We might have viewed it through a more "medieval" eye, instead of a more modern, peace oriented, politically correct eye, especially if they didn't have all the ground level scenes with Arya demonstrating the devastation on a personal level.

It's all in the pov. In Blackwater, there were no shorts of the small folk of King's Landing, just the armies and the women in Keep. In Battle of the Bastards, there were apparently no civilians in Winterfell when its walls were knocked down and all the soldiers were on their best behavior. In the books when Arya traversed through the country, she saw brutality (including rape) being performed on the small folk by both Lannister allies and her brother's soldiers. 

When Dany comes to Westeros, the season starts with a cameo from Ed Sheeran as the Good Lannister Soldier Who Just Wants to Go Home. Then Tyrionis applying Geneva conventions to battle strategy, there are tragic shots of burning Lannister soldiers.

Compare to no shots of the Good Tyrell Soldier Who Just left his home to be slaughtered by a near neighbor? The Lannister and Tarly forces apparently fought a bloodless, casualty-free war. The most brutal depictions of Battle besides all of Dany's are the Martell's whom we're already predisposed to hate. 

Again, everything is POV. When Dany is executing Varys for literally attempting to murder her several times, the camera zooms in on the shocked! horrified! expressions on Tyrion and Jon's faces to let us know that this is wrong! The narrative is relying on the audience not remembering that Jon executed a 10 year old boy for treason! 

It's actually a kind of fascinating social experiment, on how stories can be packaged to send out a message that is contradicted by the actual details of the narrative. Or in other words: for all the emphasis of showing >>>> telling, audiences find it easier to latch onto what is told even if what is told directly contradicts what is shown.

[ursula]

11 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Someone posted that in the books, they expected Cersei to be disposed of first, and for Daenerys to die in the battle against the wights.  That may or may not be true, depending on how strictly you believe GRRM's statement that the TV show's ending was his ending, broad strokes aside.

Not to nitpick but has GRRM actually claimed that the endings are the same or rather that D & D are aware of the endings he mapped out for the characters? Because there are so many details that make it hard to see how they'd converge. 

Like you said, I doubt Cersei will be the final Boss, so to speak. The books started with the Monster Beyond the Wall and it makes sense they'd end with that final conflict. Tyrion isn't Team Dany, he's Team fAegon. Varys is deliberately creating chaos in King's Landing, to make room for fAegon. Jon is dead and I don't think his resurrection will leave him unchanged like he's been on the show. Barristan the Bold is alive and Dany's Hand - he was basically killed off to make room for Tyrion in Team Dany. Then there are the Martells who were becoming significant players in the last books. All the prophecies in the books have been disregarded... The significance of Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna... The mystery of Summerhall... 

I can see King's Landing being sacked/destroyed as collateral damage not a deliberate act of genocide. I can see Jon killing Dany (or more likely vice versa) as part of the ritual for creating Lightbringer, etc. I can't see the Seven Samurai Wight Hunt or Dany trusting Cersei (or fAegon or anyone) to a ceasefire while she goes to battle the NK. There is no NK in the books, as a matter of fact even so.... 🤷 

Edited May 15, 2019 by ursula

[RobertDeSneero]

6 minutes ago, rmontro said:

That's true, but it's already Dark Dany that argues that the common folk of King's Landing are her enemies.  They had already changed her personality.  Before this point, she had always bent over backwards to take the advice of her advisors, even when she thought it was against her best interests.  But by the scene you are describing, Varys had already betrayed her, and Tyrion was on his last legs. 

Jorah is dead.  Missandei is dead.  She feels alienated from Jon.  She doesn't trust Tyrion.  My theory is that Grey Worm proposed that she unleash dragonfire on the people.  He is in that meeting but doesn't say anything because he already spoke before the cut.  Does he seem happy when Dany agrees to stop if the bells ring?

[rmontro]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

Again, everything is POV. When Dany is executing Varys for literally attempting to murder her several times, the camera zooms in on the shocked! horrified! expressions on Tyrion and Jon's faces to let us know that this is wrong!

You're right, it's all in how they're trying to tell the story.  They don't give the Saving Private Ryan treatment until Dany's assault on King's Landing.  Earlier on, the world appears to be a horribly brutal place, but at this point in the series everyone seems to be getting soft and are suddenly shocked by the horrors of war.

As for Varys, he didn't even give a whimper.  Usually when someone gets burned at the stake, you hear the screams.  Dragonfire must be very close to instant death because it's so hot.  If I were executed, I always thought being beheaded would be a quick way to go (assuming lethal injection isn't an option).  Probably more humane than the electric chair.  After that, I would probably choose direct dragonfire, because it appears to be very quick.  In any case, Varys was most definitely guilty.

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

Not to nitpick but has GRRM actually claimed that the endings are the same or rather that D & D are aware of the endings he mapped out for the characters?

Here's an interesting quote:

""I’ve been so slow with these books," Martin told Rolling Stone. "The major points of the ending will be things I told [Benioff and Weiss] five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added."

http://mentalfloss.com/article/578205/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-ending-will-be-different

[GraceK]

20 minutes ago, ursula said:

It's all in the pov. In Blackwater, there were no shorts of the small folk of King's Landing, just the armies and the women in Keep. In Battle of the Bastards, there were apparently no civilians in Winterfell when its walls were knocked down and all the soldiers were on their best behavior. In the books when Arya traversed through the country, she saw brutality (including rape) being performed on the small folk by both Lannister allies and her brother's soldiers. 

When Dany comes to Westeros, the season starts with a cameo from Ed Sheeran as the Good Lannister Soldier Who Just Wants to Go Home. Then Tyrionis applying Geneva conventions to battle strategy, there are tragic shots of burning Lannister soldiers.

Compare to no shots of the Good Tyrell Soldier Who Just left his home to be slaughtered by a near neighbor? The Lannister and Tarly forces apparently fought a bloodless, casualty-free war. The most brutal depictions of Battle besides all of Dany's are the Martell's whom we're already predisposed to hate. 

Again, everything is POV. When Dany is executing Varys for literally attempting to murder her several times, the camera zooms in on the shocked! horrified! expressions on Tyrion and Jon's faces to let us know that this is wrong! The narrative is relying on the audience not remembering that Jon executed a 10 year old boy for treason! 

It's actually a kind of fascinating social experiment, on how stories can be packaged to send out a message that is contradicted by the actual details of the narrative. Or in other words: for all the emphasis of showing >>>> telling, audiences find it easier to latch onto what is told even if what is told directly contradicts what is shown.

Or how they literally RECASTED Dickon Tarly on season 7, to be a strapping, handsome, sweet natured guy who felt so bad for murdering his friends at high garden, who never fought a battle before, instead of keeping the douche canoe no name actor from season 6 who mistreated Sam. 🙄it’s all perspective. Like the fans who keep defending Mirri Maa Durr and call her a hero, for murdering Danys baby, after Daenarys did her best to help her. 🤦🏻‍♀️ It’s like really??????? Mirri Maz Durr is actually fascinating, because she’s a sympathetic character who makes a great point in season 1 and speaks a truth to Daenerys about how she already was raped before Dany “ saved” her, and how she saw her God’s temple burned and her friends die. It’s a powerful statement and its justified anger. However, what gets lost is the fact that Daenaerys did try to help her , and did order the Dothraki to stop raping. She didn’t have these facts, and it was wrong for Mirri to take out her vengeance on an innocent baby who did nothing . It wasn’t “ evil mad cruelty “ for Dany to burn her. My god, do these people have kids??? You hurt my child and I’m coming for you, I don’t care what you have gone through in your life. D and D literally set this up as a biased perspective against Dany in this episode, that’s why we never see her POV after she makes her decision to burn KL. It’s dehumanizing.

Edited May 15, 2019 by GraceK

[rmontro]

2 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

 My theory is that Grey Worm proposed that she unleash dragonfire on the people.  He is in that meeting but doesn't say anything because he already spoke before the cut.  Does he seem happy when Dany agrees to stop if the bells ring?

Grey Worm seems to be in the same sort of place mentally that Dany is in.

When I first saw that scene with him and Dany, I didn't realize it was Missandei's slave shackle that he had tossed into the fire.  I originally thought it showed how he had hardened his heart against all emotion, but he was actually angry that she had ended her life in chains.  Which was where she had begun her life, and a place that she had thought she had left behind.  Even those these two are fairly minor characters, I feel like their story is particularly poignant.

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Grey Worm seems to be in the same sort of place mentally that Dany is in.

When I first saw that scene with him and Dany, I didn't realize it was Missandei's slave shackle that he had tossed into the fire.  I originally thought it showed how he had hardened his heart against all emotion, but he was actually angry that she had ended her life in chains.  Which was where she had begun her life, and a place that she had thought she had left behind.  Even those these two are fairly minor characters, I feel like their story is particularly poignant.

I also noticed how protective Greyworm still is of Dany. He immediately stepped in front of her when Jon came in and gave him a look as he was leaving , in the Dragonstone scene. She called him by his real name too.  It’s like these two are really the ones who really love each other that are left. They are still loyal to each other  😢

Edited May 15, 2019 by GraceK

[Portia4844]

15 minutes ago, ursula said:

I'm asking if the bolded happened in the books:

Thanks.  In reading all the different thoughts about Dany and others, it's been helpful in considering that my way of describing her in a sentence or two wasn't fair.  She was well fleshed out with good traits, the ability to show love and vulnerability, and a desire to be a good leader.  There was a great deal of inner struggle going on for her and times I cheered for her and times I worried about how ruthless she might become in her desire for the IT.    

[lucindabelle]

52 minutes ago, ursula said:

It's all in the pov. In Blackwater, there were no shorts of the small folk of King's Landing, just the armies and the women in Keep. In Battle of the Bastards, there were apparently no civilians in Winterfell when its walls were knocked down and all the soldiers were on their best behavior. In the books when Arya traversed through the country, she saw brutality (including rape) being performed on the small folk by both Lannister allies and her brother's soldiers. 

When Dany comes to Westeros, the season starts with a cameo from Ed Sheeran as the Good Lannister Soldier Who Just Wants to Go Home. Then Tyrionis applying Geneva conventions to battle strategy, there are tragic shots of burning Lannister soldiers.

Compare to no shots of the Good Tyrell Soldier Who Just left his home to be slaughtered by a near neighbor? The Lannister and Tarly forces apparently fought a bloodless, casualty-free war. The most brutal depictions of Battle besides all of Dany's are the Martell's whom we're already predisposed to hate. 

Again, everything is POV. When Dany is executing Varys for literally attempting to murder her several times, the camera zooms in on the shocked! horrified! expressions on Tyrion and Jon's faces to let us know that this is wrong! The narrative is relying on the audience not remembering that Jon executed a 10 year old boy for treason! 

It's actually a kind of fascinating social experiment, on how stories can be packaged to send out a message that is contradicted by the actual details of the narrative. Or in other words: for all the emphasis of showing >>>> telling, audiences find it easier to latch onto what is told even if what is told directly contradicts what is shown.

This this this this 10000x.

the visual representation of the horrors of war was ONLY for dany. 

[GraceK]

Give me a moment for a second. Can you imagine Daenerys and Robb Stark together?? 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ The ultimate power couple. 

Fanon Robb Stark: Love obsessed cinnamon roll who needs a hug! Can’t keep his dick in his pants and lost the North. Doesn’t deserve to be king and lost the war because he got married. Boring good guy obsessed with honor and love. The only people who remember him are his fans or people ready to say he was a bad king.

Canon Robb Stark: The entire realm was literally pissed scared of Robb Stark. He was the young Lord turned King who was destroying, straight up destroying Tywin Lannister. Tywin Lannister! The man who got a song named after him for being a fucking nightmare and Robb Stark was embarrassing him at every turn. He captured the King Slayer, one of the deadliest swordsmen in the series, destroyed the west, saved the Riverlands, and basically became a legend overnight. Robb Stark with his mother’s help was leading and winning a war on his own skill. Seriously, he wasn’t called “The Young Wolf” as a cute play on words since he was a Stark. They called him that cause they thought he could turn into a fucking Wolf! He was also a Warg, the only one besides Bran who even understood what the Wolf dreams meant. It took being betrayed by his best friend, 3 sworn house armies, and Tywin organizationing the Red Wedding, which is the equivalency to burning a church in our time, to defeat him and still to this day GRRM, the creator of ASOIAF/GOT says that he had to kill off Robb or he would’ve been unstoppable.
image. I think this fandom seriously forgets how motherfucking badass this character was and how it took literally the worst mother fucking luck a king in the north can motherfucking have to fucking defeat him. Seriously the motherfucker was fighting in a war with fucking four other KINGS! Fucking Four motherfuckers Kings! Who’s to say who could’ve done better?! Fuck if Robb was still alive fucking the Lannisters would be taking it in the ass right now!

[slf]

38 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Give me a moment for a second. Can you imagine Daenerys and Robb Stark together?? 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ The ultimate power couple. 

Fanon Robb Stark: Love obsessed cinnamon roll who needs a hug! Can’t keep his dick in his pants and lost the North. Doesn’t deserve to be king and lost the war because he got married. Boring good guy obsessed with honor and love. The only people who remember him are his fans or people ready to say he was a bad king.

Canon Robb Stark: The entire realm was literally pissed scared of Robb Stark. He was the young Lord turned King who was destroying, straight up destroying Tywin Lannister. Tywin Lannister! The man who got a song named after him for being a fucking nightmare and Robb Stark was embarrassing him at every turn. He captured the King Slayer, one of the deadliest swordsmen in the series, destroyed the west, saved the Riverlands, and basically became a legend overnight. Robb Stark with his mother’s help was leading and winning a war on his own skill. Seriously, he wasn’t called “The Young Wolf” as a cute play on words since he was a Stark. They called him that cause they thought he could turn into a fucking Wolf! He was also a Warg, the only one besides Bran who even understood what the Wolf dreams meant. It took being betrayed by his best friend, 3 sworn house armies, and Tywin organizationing the Red Wedding, which is the equivalency to burning a church in our time, to defeat him and still to this day GRRM, the creator of ASOIAF/GOT says that he had to kill off Robb or he would’ve been unstoppable.
image. I think this fandom seriously forgets how motherfucking badass this character was and how it took literally the worst mother fucking luck a king in the north can motherfucking have to fucking defeat him. Seriously the motherfucker was fighting in a war with fucking four other KINGS! Fucking Four motherfuckers Kings! Who’s to say who could’ve done better?! Fuck if Robb was still alive fucking the Lannisters would be taking it in the ass right now!

Robb, as he himself pointed out, was losing the war despite having won every battle. Robb didn't lose because of bad luck, he lost because he trusted Theon despite having good reason not to, and broke his word to the Freys for the wrong woman (a Lannister bannerwoman?! Margaery Tyrell would've been the superior choice). He was a great tactician but Tywin was the better politician and was more ruthless, with a bigger army and more money.

Robb would never have bent the knee to Daenerys and would never agree to any plan that didn't allow for an independent North (which she would never agree to).