S05.E02: Pests

[henripootel]

38 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Stan might not like what his superiors are doing to Oleg, but I can't see Stan ever betraying the U.S.

Stan might not have much of a choice.  He gave the rezidentura some classified info when he was trying to broker a deal to free Nina, if I recall correctly.  Stan plays ball or Stan loses his job and goes directly to jail.  I think they'll use Andrea (if she is indeed a spy) to feel out his sympathies and try to turn Stan gently and gradually, but they will tell him at some point that they have the goods on him.  They get Stan to get out a few small documents, maybe something maybe to help Oleg, and now they're really got Stan.

My guess is that we will, in turn, watch Phillip squirm watching them try to recruit Stan, knowing full well that it'll never work.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

I thought Alice said the tape was with her lawyer? Not at their house. Even if they had a copy at the house, it's unlikely to be the only one, having it with a lawyer makes sense. You couldn't trust that the lawyer or the 'Tims' don't have several copies in various locations. It's what I'd do in their shoes.

Yes, that's why I feel like Paige might go looking for it on her own. I think her parents know that finding one version of the tape isn't going to save them. But it's something Paige might think would help to feel like she's doing something.

1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

I can't see Stan betraying the US in any other sense than Oleg betrayed the Soviet Union. Oleg is still a patriot, he's still loyal to Mother Russia and its people, but he felt the behavior of his superiors was unethical to the degree of him taking action against them in one instance. As Stan himself said, Oleg "can't be turned."

Yes, he's also like the Colonel in season 1 who gave Philip information about Star Wars because he thought it was dangerous what his superiors were doing. And Philip himself when he didn't want to tell his superiors about Haig because he knew they'd misunderstand. But what Oleg did had more repercussions.

18 minutes ago, jjj said:

I really think Henry is just going to be out of the equation this season.  He looks taller than Phillip by now, and it is a odd dynamic to have Paige be SpyGirl while this tall person (who is no longer a pesky little kid) is sitting around the table but not part of the inner circle.  I almost wish they had re-cast the role of Henry to keep a little kid in the mix who clearly has no business in the spy game. 

Henry's now around the age Paige was when she got suspicious and he's started to notice his parents and Paige being weird. He's shown lots more raw ability for this stuff than Paige has, even if he's less nosy and more independent. He's not in their inner circle now, but he's old enough that he could easily become part of it soon. They have the chance to set off that bomb twice on kids with very different personalities. I think it's a given that Henry will become part of the equation much more this season than he has been before.

[jjj]

If this were a more long-term series, I could see tall Henry being part of the storyline.  But with this season's agricultural main plot (apparently, like the bioweapons were last season), Oleg in crisis, Stan seemingly headed to some crisis, one child already deeply resentful of the spy games, another (unknown) child in transit to blow the lid off the secret identities, there are already so many mixed family and spy plots in play at the moment.  Adding tall Henry as another chemical to this mix is not necessary and would be bewildering. That is the main reason I see him as even more on the sidelines this season.  "Henry is at the library -- he says," may become a variation each week.  He had what, 15 seconds of air time in the first episode, and 3 seconds of sleeping time in the second episode.  He does not seem to be on a path to a plot point.  :-) 

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

I can't see Stan betraying the US in any other sense than Oleg betrayed the Soviet Union. Oleg is still a patriot, he's still loyal to Mother Russia and its people, but he felt the behavior of his superiors was unethical to the degree of him taking action against them in one instance. As Stan himself said, Oleg "can't be turned."

That's the way I could potentially see Stan acting as well.

I agree and think that many people might decide that being loyal to one's homeland means standing up against crazy plots - like introducing some bio disease on another country and killing untold numbers of peope.

Do you think Oleg is disloyal to his homeland because he prevented some crazies from killing huge numbers of people with some horrible bio weapon? I think he is a patriot for doing that. Maybe even a "super" patriot?

If your nation is doing something clearly wrong, terrible and miserable, is it treasonable to stand up and say, "NYET"?   I don't think so.  I think he is a hero.  He also is very nice looking.  Definitely some eye candy there.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, jjj said:

He had what, 15 seconds of air time in the first episode, and 3 seconds of sleeping time in the second episode.  He does not seem to be on a path to a plot point.  :-) 

I disagree since both of those episodes introduced a development for Henry. They could have just had him there at Stan's house with Paige since last season we heard he was there a lot. Here they have Stan telling us that he hasn't seen him lately--so that relationship's changed. Then we know he left the house and lied about where he was going. That, to me, says that we're going to actually find out what he's doing, possibly before his family does, and that whatever it is will also have an effect on the dynamics at home and how he interacts with everyone. The Jennings family has always been the central unit to the story, so I think there's always room for Henry.

Also because of that we need to start getting some more specific interactions between Henry and his parents. Three scenes of Henry hanging out at Stan's got Stan promoted to "real father" for some people. But it's actually been emphasized a lot on the show that Henry loves being with his real dad. Henry and Philip have always been subtly paralleled with each other. We just almost never see them having any significant conversations at all. If this is the season where we actually learn more about Philip's own past it would make sense to bring in Henry for that. Just as Elizabeth works out her own personal issues via Paige, I think Philip would do that via Henry. The more we understand the relationship between Henry and his parents the more we can dread/anticipate his finding out the truth.

I mean, we've got a lot of father/son stuff introduced this season: Mischa wants to meet the one he never knew, Pasha is fighting with his, Tuan thinks Pasha needs to be stronger fighting with his, Tuan himself is a fake son to the Jennings, Stan seems to see the whole Matthew/Paige relationship as being good for his relationship with his son, Oleg is probably on a collision course with his father given his new job and his bad situation with the FBI, Philip and Elizabeth just lose Hans, who was also a bit like a little brother/son.

I think all this puts Henry at the center of things rather than just one too many boys so he's the one who gets cut. As far as our main characters are concerned, Henry is the most important son.

[EtheltoTillie]

On 3/17/2017 at 8:58 AM, MissBluxom said:

 

If you love Keri as much as many others do, I would like to suggest two of her films. I think you may enjoy them very much.

Leaves of Grass stars Ed  Norton and it is very much his film - more so than Keri's. She is very sweet in this film and if you like this sort of thing, we get to see quite a lot of her naked feet. I have a feeling the cinematographer had a foot fetish. So I guess your level of enjoyment with this film might depend on just how much you like Keri's naked feet. Some people find them much more erotic than do others. I would have preferred that they would have shown some other parts of her body instead of just her feet. But, her feet are awfully sweet. She doesn't have a very big part in this movie. But she portrays a very sweet girl next door and it's very easy to fall in love with her.

Also, the film, "Waitress" depicts Keri as a very simple small town waitress. She is the main character in this film and she is very lovable as a waitress. This movie is good fun. If you have not seen these, I hope you will enjoy them.

Another great Keri movie is "The Magic of Ordinary Days."  It's an old Hallmark special.  It's hard to find. 

[gwhh]

On 3/18/2017 at 2:00 PM, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth's whole approach seems tied to the season's theme of weakness through the eyes of people who grew up with violence (or were introduced to it early and traumatically).  So Elizabeth didn't talk to Paige about getting used to the sensation of contact, she put it right in the context of weakness, not being afraid of hitting or being hit because you had to do anything to protect yourself. Iow, it’s all about kill or be killed. Any self-defense usually requires teaching the person to be aggressive, but you know Elizabeth also wants to toughen Paige up in general. That’s come up on the show before, but with Tuan and Pasha etc. it seems like it’s a bigger concept. But Paige is coming from a background of avoiding violence. In the pilot Philip pretends to back down in front of the creep at the mall and tells Paige fighting would make it worse, and she agrees. Then she was at the church and into non-violence. In the last ep she said she didn’t want to “get better” with violence. Paige would be getting the shit kicked out of her by her mom.

 

 

E & P come from a third world nation (USSR) was than and still is a 3rd world nation.  Back during the cold war.  They were a 3rd world nation with a 1st world military. 

Anyone who every been to a 2nd or 3rd world nation away from the "nice / tourist" area.  Knows they are bad places.  Where violence is NOT use as a last resort.  Its used right off the bat most of the time.  Where a guy cuts off you finger to get your ring without even thinking about it!  So the default setting for E & P is violence.  They have been using it from day one of there lives.  So it already to go.   

Paige is from the USA.  Where casual violence in the civilized world is rare.  And if needed, other will do it in your name.  So teaching Paige to use violence as a tool will be a long process to make happen.

 In 3rd world nations.  You have to grow up fast.  I think that what E was meaning when she said she tired of treating her like a child  A lot of 1st generations immigrants are shocked by how Americans let there kids grow slowing into an adult at such advantages ages as 16 or 24 or what ever!. 

Stan world never turn into a traitor.  He does not have it in him.  He can act like one.   he learned that working undercover before the show started!  

I knew that 3 world thing would turn into a debate. I meant from ecomincal stand point ONLY.  Not a ideological stand point. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by gwhh

[kokapetl]

15 minutes ago, gwhh said:

E & P come from a third world nation (USSR) was than and still is a 3rd world nation.  Back during the cold war.  They were a 3rd world nation with a 1st world military. 

Anyone who every been to a 2nd or 3rd world nation away from the "nice / tourist" area.  Knows they are bad places.  Where violence is NOT use as a last resort.  Its used right off the bat most of the time.  Where a guy cuts off you finger to get your ring without even thinking about it!  So the default setting for E & P is violence.  They have been using it from day one of there lives.  So it already to go.   

Paige is from the USA.  Where casual violence in the civilized world is rare.  And if needed, other will do it in your name.  So teaching Paige to use violence as a tool will be a long process to make happen.

 In 3rd world nations.  You have to grow up fast.  I think that what E was meaning when she said she tired of treating her like a child  A lot of 1st generations immigrants are shocked by how Americans let there kids grow slowing into an adult at such advantages ages as 16 or 24 or what ever!. 

Stan world never turn into a traitor.  He does not have it in him.  He can act like one.   he learned that working undercover before the show started!  

The Soviet Union was the 2nd world. 

[MisterBluxom]

17 minutes ago, gwhh said:

Stan world never turn into a traitor.  He does not have it in him.  He can act like one.   he learned that working undercover before the show started!  

 

If pushed hard enough, most anyone just might have it in them.  Stan comes off as a very decent man. I don't think he has to be pushed all that hard.

He is definitely not happy about that suit pushing him to put Oleg in harm's way. OMG! I feel so sad for this nation when people seem to think nothing about doing stuff like that. They deserve to get their just deserts and I'm not talking about Cherries Jubilee.

[Kathemy]

Just now, Kokapetl said:

The Soviet Union was the 2nd world. 

Actually the Soviet Union was counted as being first world according to the three worlds theory, in the meaning of being the second imperialist superpower. This has nothing to do with how wealthy a particular nation is or how well-off its citizens are - remember, there are several countries where the standard of living is higher than the United States - but which function it serves in the interaction between nations.

It would be reasonable to argue that since the collapse of the USSR, Russia has been demoted to second world status.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, henripootel said:

Stan might not have much of a choice.  He gave the rezidentura some classified info when he was trying to broker a deal to free Nina, if I recall correctly.  Stan plays ball or Stan loses his job and goes directly to jail.  I think they'll use Andrea (if she is indeed a spy) to feel out his sympathies and try to turn Stan gently and gradually, but they will tell him at some point that they have the goods on him.  They get Stan to get out a few small documents, maybe something maybe to help Oleg, and now they're really got Stan.

My guess is that we will, in turn, watch Phillip squirm watching them try to recruit Stan, knowing full well that it'll never work.

IIRC, he came close, but ultimately did not actually give up any information. And that's how Nina ended up back in the Soviet Union.

[kokapetl]

First world, Second World and Third World didn't originate as rankings, they were classifications. The First World was the industrialized west, the Second World was the communist world, and the Third World was everything else. 

[Kathemy]

5 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

First world, Second World and Third World didn't originate as rankings, they were classifications. The First World was the industrialized west, the Second World was the communist world, and the Third World was everything else. 

You're referring to the three worlds model by Sauvy and I'm referring to the three worlds theory by Mao.

[Clanstarling]

21 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

First world, Second World and Third World didn't originate as rankings, they were classifications. The First World was the industrialized west, the Second World was the communist world, and the Third World was everything else. 

14 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

You're referring to the three worlds model by Sauvy and I'm referring to the three worlds theory by Mao.

I had no clue there were two models. The perspectives are interesting. I have to say, though I never studied either model/theory, my understanding of the three worlds concept was closer to the Mao theory than the other one.

Mao Three World Theory

Western Three World Model

Edited March 19, 2017 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

IIRC, he came close, but ultimately did not actually give up any information. And that's how Nina ended up back in the Soviet Union.

He did give up info--he gave up surveillance reports on Oleg early on. It was only the Echo stuff that he didn't give up. So he pulled back before he gave up something he felt would really be traitorous, but he hadn't given up info.

But then, the whole ending to that was that Stan got promoted when his secret plan to turn Oleg was revealed. Instead of getting punished for it, he got rewarded. So those surveillance reports might not get him in trouble. He could just play them as part of his "turn Oleg" scheme instead of admitting he was giving them over to save Nina. Stan got off scott-free while Nina, Oleg, Nicolai and Gaad all got burned.

[AllyB]

1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

You're referring to the three worlds model by Sauvy and I'm referring to the three worlds theory by Mao.

Western Theory would be that most commonly understood by westerners. Although 'Third World' tends to cause some confusion as a number of wealthy European nations were neutral in the cold war and so were third world nations despite the general assumption that the third world refers to poor, undeveloped/exploited countries.

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

He did give up info--he gave up surveillance reports on Oleg early on. It was only the Echo stuff that he didn't give up. So he pulled back before he gave up something he felt would really be traitorous, but he hadn't given up info.

But then, the whole ending to that was that Stan got promoted when his secret plan to turn Oleg was revealed. Instead of getting punished for it, he got rewarded. So those surveillance reports might not get him in trouble. He could just play them as part of his "turn Oleg" scheme instead of admitting he was giving them over to save Nina. Stan got off scott-free while Nina, Oleg, Nicolai and Gaad all got burned.

Ah, I'd forgotten the surveillance reports. The Echo information was the price for Nina, wasn't it?

[jjj]

By the way, I was very happy they mentioned Glaad's murder in this episode.  I felt like that was a loose thread from last season, and would be pleased to know who those intruders were working for. 

I can't remember who actually bugged the mail robot (but I remember the repair and the tape collection when it was discovered) -- but of course thought of the mail robot this week when microwaves came under suspicion. 

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Ah, I'd forgotten the surveillance reports. The Echo information was the price for Nina, wasn't it?

Right, I think the surveillance reports were just trying to get him to give something. The Echo stuff was the real price for Nina. He didn't give it so she got sent away.

[SlackerInc]

8 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I thought he was dead on, myself. The guy was getting pretty aggressive (verbally) when they wanted to leave, and he had driven them to someplace other than where they wanted to go (and where he said he was going), and decided they should drink some beer. Those are huge red flags, in my book.

I'm not saying they aren't, or that I would have felt comfortable in that situation, or that I think they were definitely not in danger.  I'm saying it was never actually proved that they were in danger.  It was ambiguous.  The post I responded to said "Henry is also the one who figured out they were in dangerous situation while hitchhiking home from the mall" and I dispute that wording, because you can't say that unless you know for a fact they were in danger.  (Add "probably" and I agree with the statement.)  But then I tend to think like a criminal defense lawyer.  :)

4 hours ago, jjj said:

If this were a more long-term series, I could see tall Henry being part of the storyline.  But with this season's agricultural main plot (apparently, like the bioweapons were last season), Oleg in crisis, Stan seemingly headed to some crisis, one child already deeply resentful of the spy games, another (unknown) child in transit to blow the lid off the secret identities, there are already so many mixed family and spy plots in play at the moment.  Adding tall Henry as another chemical to this mix is not necessary and would be bewildering. That is the main reason I see him as even more on the sidelines this season.  "Henry is at the library -- he says," may become a variation each week.  He had what, 15 seconds of air time in the first episode, and 3 seconds of sleeping time in the second episode.  He does not seem to be on a path to a plot point.  :-) 

This is an interesting debate, with both sides making good points.  But I find this a little more convincing, especially throwing in how big he has grown.  Similarly, I would not be surprised if the pastor and his wife are never seen or heard from again; neither would I be surprised if they do pop up.  We shall see!

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

The Soviet Union was the 2nd world. 

Yeah, it's silly to call a nation "third world" when they did most of the work defeating Nazi Germany, quickly gained not only nukes but the much more powerful H-bombs, and got the first satellite and first human being in space (and are currently the only country with the capability of getting humans to the International Space Station).

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

IIRC, he came close, but ultimately did not actually give up any information. And that's how Nina ended up back in the Soviet Union.

As subsequently noted, he did give up surveillance reports.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

I'm not saying they aren't, or that I would have felt comfortable in that situation, or that I think they were definitely not in danger.  I'm saying it was never actually proved that they were in danger.  It was ambiguous.  The post I responded to said "Henry is also the one who figured out they were in dangerous situation while hitchhiking home from the mall" and I dispute that wording, because you can't say that unless you know for a fact they were in danger.  (Add "probably" and I agree with the statement.)  But then I tend to think like a criminal defense lawyer.  :)

And in this particular situation, I think more like a target - be aware, assume danger and bug out when things are hinky. Comes with being a woman, I think. It's saved me more than once.

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

And in this particular situation, I think more like a target - be aware, assume danger and bug out when things are hinky. Comes with being a woman, I think. It's saved me more than once.

I think the key is that whether or not the guy was going to do something--and Henry himself asks himself that when they get home--Henry did notice all the red flags. Where Paige just assumed safety with a strange man no matter what he did (or at least didn't act on any feelings she had) Henry saw the world as potentially dangerous and was ready to do something to protect himself and his sister. And he did it even before the guy had made a definite move. They could have filmed the scene with the guy actually attacking Paige, but they didn't. They had Henry err on the side of caution. This kid somehow doesn't have the same sense of safety she does--he just wasn't born with it despite having had the same safe life she had.

And I think that's continued. Paige also gave herself over to Pastor Tim. Not that he was dangerous like this guy, but she wanted to hand herself over completely. Henry has become friends with Stan, but that relationship isn't about Henry confessing all his problems and feelings to him. He's getting what he wants from Stan. And quite possibly Henry has now decided to back off for reasons of his own.

[SlackerInc]

18 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

And in this particular situation, I think more like a target - be aware, assume danger and bug out when things are hinky. Comes with being a woman, I think. It's saved me more than once.

I still think we're talking past each other.  I am not arguing that it was a good plan for them to stick around and find out what his true intentions were.  I agree with "better safe than sorry" in that scenario.

I'm only saying they will never know for sure.  And if it were a real person, it would be defamation to say "he was about to rape her or stab them".  (It would not OTOH be defamation to say "Henry had a reasonable belief that he and his sister were likely in danger".)

[FormerMod-a1]

Let's get back to discussing THIS episode in this topic.  There are character topics, and a whole Past Seasons subforum where you can further discussion Henry vs Paige and details of sensing danger.

[Clanstarling]

7 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

I still think we're talking past each other.  I am not arguing that it was a good plan for them to stick around and find out what his true intentions were.  I agree with "better safe than sorry" in that scenario.

I'm only saying they will never know for sure.  And if it were a real person, it would be defamation to say "he was about to rape her or stab them".  (It would not OTOH be defamation to say "Henry had a reasonable belief that he and his sister were likely in danger".)

Oh no, I got what you meant. I didn't think you were saying they should, or that there was no danger. I was just leveraging your "thinking like a" statement to make an additional statement of my own. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Clanstarling
not continuing the topic, just clarifying a response. Hope that's okay. I posted it before I saw the last comment.

[Superpole2000]

On 3/15/2017 at 6:54 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

• The green leather chairs in the FBI conference room are hideous.

Speaking of ugly furniture, how about that couch at the Beeman's house? I don't know how Paige and Matthew ever got into a makeout mood on that thing. More importantly, I really hope there wasn't any mess-making because no one would ever be able to clean anything out of that couch. GROSS!

[henripootel]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Right, I think the surveillance reports were just trying to get him to give something. The Echo stuff was the real price for Nina. He didn't give it so she got sent away.

One wonders how bad it would be for Stan were it revealed that he'd given them anything at all that he didn't report.  Did Stan ever report that he was banging Nina?  That too is a potentially serious breech of protocol right there especially if Stan never mentioned it.  I think the Russians have enough to end Stan's career at the least, but I guess we'll see. 

[gwhh]

As for Henry, I wonder what would be more galling to his parents: He becomes an FBI agent (or something along those lines), or he invents a useless thing (à la the pet rock) that makes him insanely wealthy and he's now a capitalist pig? 

What if henry become a Televangelists!!  How would mom and dad feel than ??

Maybe it will be Henry who turn mom and dad into the FBI?  

Why does everyone center on Paige?   Why did she get the limelight the last 2 seasons?  Maybe it's a mis direction arc from the show producers?  The person least expected is the one mostly likely to do the most unexpected!  

Edited March 21, 2017 by gwhh

[sistermagpie]

On 3/18/2017 at 10:30 PM, SlackerInc said:

(2) I question your basic premise.  Where is the evidence that this church is "scripturally conservative"?  Please, if you would, cite specific lines from specific episodes that I can verify.

I can't speak for Bretton but Paige was shown almost immediately studying the Bible closely once she went to the church. She had one full of yellow stickies and we now know she goes to Bible Study once a week. So she's studying the actual scripture for answers. 

[SlackerInc]

But which passages?   Two of my most liberal friends (from different places) are devout Christians and are very conversant with the Bible.

[Tetraneutron]

4 hours ago, gwhh said:

As for Henry, I wonder what would be more galling to his parents: He becomes an FBI agent (or something along those lines), or he invents a useless thing (à la the pet rock) that makes him insanely wealthy and he's now a capitalist pig? 

What if henry become a Televangelists!!  How would mom and dad feel??

Maybe it will be Henry who turn mom and dad into the FBI?  

Why does everyone center on Paige?   Why did she get the limelight the last 2 seasons?  Maybe it's a mis direction arc from the show producers?  The person least expected is the one mostly likely to do the most unexpected!  

Paige is older. Of course she's going to be the focus. I agree with you - I've always said that Paige and Henry are two different sides of the American experience that conflict with how P and E were raised. Paige is religious and wholesome and believes in institutions, that you're supposed to be good and listen to your elders and everything will work out like it's supposed to, and Henry likes shiny toys and entertainment and doesn't take things seriously. Superego and id, if you want to be simplistic about it. I expect Henry to be a bigger part in the next season, when he'll be as old as Paige was when they let her into this. 

[Umbelina]

On 3/19/2017 at 8:32 AM, AllyB said:

I thought Alice said the tape was with her lawyer? Not at their house. Even if they had a copy at the house, it's unlikely to be the only one, having it with a lawyer makes sense. You couldn't trust that the lawyer or the 'Tims' don't have several copies in various locations. It's what I'd do in their shoes.

Honestly, I lived during those times.  I couldn't stand, and absolutely didn't trust Reagan or his advisers, and I certainly was unhappy with the USA lies and actions about everything from Vietnam to Iran/Contra and many things in between, including our behavior with Africa and Central America, and certainly with apartheid .  However, there is no fucking way I wouldn't have gone straight to the FBI.  None.  Zip.  I was politically far more liberal than the Pastor and his idiot wife, but that doesn't mean I would be complicit with deeply embedded RUSSIAN spies operating against the United States.  Not ever, not for any reason, this simply would not happen for me, and the hardest thing about this whole Paige story is that Pastor Tim didn't turn them in.  Worried about Paige and Henry?  Try to work a deal for them, but not let their parents continue to work against my country, let alone Paige (whom I would supposedly care about) continue to live in that situation.

ALSO, I would absolutely not trust them not to kill me, so I'd want FBI protection, relocation, whatever they could offer both me and my family.  RISK YOUR LIFE to protect Russian spies?  oh hell no.

On 3/19/2017 at 9:38 AM, dubbel zout said:

Stan might not like what his superiors are doing to Oleg, but I can't see Stan ever betraying the U.S.

Stan very nearly did.  Stan is also a murderer, and stole Top Secret information.  As far as a great betrayal?  No, if he didn't do it for Nina, he's not going to do it.

On 3/19/2017 at 7:31 AM, Clanstarling said:

I thought he was dead on, myself. The guy was getting pretty aggressive (verbally) when they wanted to leave, and he had driven them to someplace other than where they wanted to go (and where he said he was going), and decided they should drink some beer. Those are huge red flags, in my book.

Oh hell yes.  Henry saved them both there.  His instincts were spot on from before they ever got in that car.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Umbelina
added stuff

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, I lived during those times.  I couldn't stand, and absolutely didn't trust Reagan or his advisers, and I certainly was unhappy with the USA lies and actions about everything from Vietnam to Iran/Contra and many things in between, including our behavior with Africa and Central America, and certainly with apartheid .  However, there is no fucking way I wouldn't have gone straight to the FBI.  None.  Zip.  I was politically far more liberal than the Pastor and his idiot wife, but that doesn't mean I would be complicit with deeply embedded RUSSIAN spies operating against the United States.  Not ever, not for any reason, this simply would not happen for me, and the hardest thing about this whole Paige story is that Pastor Tim didn't turn them in.  Worried about Paige and Henry?  Try to work a deal for them, but not let their parents continue to work against my country, let alone Paige (whom I would supposedly care about) continue to live in that situation.

This is why I always thought Pastor Tim had to be driven by ego. He's got to *like* being in on this secret, being in control of this family somehow, see himself as a savior because dude...what are you doing? And if he get caught he'd be in more trouble than they would. They're foreign spies. He's a traitor. And he even started out by asking for details about what they were doing! And apparently approved of a mission they pretended about, the guy from El Salvador. This is beyond getting arrested for loitering, but he really doesn't seem to know that.

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, I lived during those times.  I couldn't stand, and absolutely didn't trust Reagan or his advisers, and I certainly was unhappy with the USA lies and actions about everything from Vietnam to Iran/Contra and many things in between, including our behavior with Africa and Central America, and certainly with apartheid .  However, there is no fucking way I wouldn't have gone straight to the FBI.  None.  Zip.  I was politically far more liberal than the Pastor and his idiot wife, but that doesn't mean I would be complicit with deeply embedded RUSSIAN spies operating against the United States.  Not ever, not for any reason, this simply would not happen for me, and the hardest thing about this whole Paige story is that Pastor Tim didn't turn them in.  Worried about Paige and Henry?  Try to work a deal for them, but not let their parents continue to work against my country, let alone Paige (whom I would supposedly care about) continue to live in that situation.

ALSO, I would absolutely not trust them not to kill me, so I'd want FBI protection, relocation, whatever they could offer both me and my family.  RISK YOUR LIFE to protect Russian spies?  oh hell no.

Yes to everything here. I lived through those times and had the same concerns. And am about as liberal as it gets (despite being raised in the military) But I'd have turned them over to the FBI in a flash.

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

This is why I always thought Pastor Tim had to be driven by ego. He's got to *like* being in on this secret, being in control of this family somehow, see himself as a savior because dude...what are you doing? And if he get caught he'd be in more trouble than they would. They're foreign spies. He's a traitor. And he even started out by asking for details about what they were doing! And apparently approved of a mission they pretended about, the guy from El Salvador. This is beyond getting arrested for loitering, but he really doesn't seem to know that.

By their silence, they're aiding and abetting an enemy nation. Which is, what's that word again? Treason.

[Ina123]

Honestly, I lived during those times.  I couldn't stand, and absolutely didn't trust Reagan or his advisers, and I certainly was unhappy with the USA lies and actions about everything from Vietnam to Iran/Contra and many things in between, including our behavior with Africa and Central America, and certainly with apartheid .  However, there is no fucking way I wouldn't have gone straight to the FBI.  None.  Zip.  I was politically far more liberal than the Pastor and his idiot wife, but that doesn't mean I would be complicit with deeply embedded RUSSIAN spies operating against the United States.  Not ever, not for any reason, this simply would not happen for me, and the hardest thing about this whole Paige story is that Pastor Tim didn't turn them in.  Worried about Paige and Henry?  Try to work a deal for them, but not let their parents continue to work against my country, let alone Paige (whom I would supposedly care about) continue to live in that situation.

ALSO, I would absolutely not trust them not to kill me, so I'd want FBI protection, relocation, whatever they could offer both me and my family.  RISK YOUR LIFE to protect Russian spies?  oh hell no.

Yes to everything here. I lived through those times and had the same concerns. And am about as liberal as it gets (despite being raised in the military) But I'd have turned them over to the FBI in a flash.

  This is why I always thought Pastor Tim had to be driven by ego. He's got to *like* being in on this secret, being in control of this family somehow, see himself as a savior because dude...what are you doing? And if he get caught he'd be in more trouble than they would. They're foreign spies. He's a traitor. And he even started out by asking for details about what they were doing! And apparently approved of a mission they pretended about, the guy from El Salvador. This is beyond getting arrested for loitering, but he really doesn't seem to know that.

By their silence, they're aiding and abetting an enemy nation. Which is, what's that word again? Treason.

Hell yeah! to all of this.

[Bretton]

On 3/20/2017 at 11:38 AM, sistermagpie said:

I can't speak for Bretton but Paige was shown almost immediately studying the Bible closely once she went to the church. She had one full of yellow stickies and we now know she goes to Bible Study once a week. So she's studying the actual scripture for answers. 

Right on, Sister Magpie. If someone's looking for an episode where Paige or Tim claims the earth is 10,000 years old, it won't be found. But the circumstantial flags are plentiful. The looking to the Bible for answers; the focus on personal prayer; Tim's comment to almost strangers that they do good things with a whole lot of Jesus thrown in - or something to that nature... all of these are flags for a conservative congregation. The casual observer or one with limited experiences in these kinds of Christian contexts might not pick up on these cues, but for others, those signs definitely stand out.

[AllyB]

Something about Tim's politics makes me see something akin to Quakerism in his faith. There are differences and I think if he was a Quaker we'd have heard much more of the words 'friends' and 'meeting house' but the draft refusal and organisation of and participation in non violent direct action against nuclear weapons reminds me of Quakers I've known. And if Tim has a similar faith to that he may also be opposed to the very idea of nationalism. In some faiths nationalities are just false, man made divisions that God would find abhorrent. Tim may just see himself as a person of earth and neutral in the cold war. And as someone from a neutral country, I think my instinct upon finding out a couple I know were KGB spies would have been to find away to protect my family and ascertain as well as I could that they weren't about to stage an invasion. If they tried to convince me that they were involved in work that I had an ethical sympathy with, I'd probably just let them think I was convinced, set up my 'insurance' tapes and get on with living my life. Because I'm a realist enough to know that the work the spies on both sides were doing was mostly awful but still likely prevented an out and out war. One which would have killed us all. Reporting them would achieve nothing other than lob a bomb into my own life for the sake of two warring ideologies, neither of which are deserving of that sacrifice from me.

So I can understand why Tim hasn't reported them. Obviously he has the added threat of his silence being a form of legal treason. But Tim (unlike any Quakers I've met) does have a massive ego and he is relishing the feeling of having such power over these people. He isn't fully thinking through the situation he is in. The real world implications haven't really occurred to him. I think a part of him has been having his own personal dick measuring competition with Philip ever since Philip confronted him in the church. It added fuel to his mission to 'save' Paige and make her a surrogate daughter. And to now have the kind of power over him that knowing his real identity gives him. He's not going to give that up just to turn him in, he prefers to savour it. While also being able to use his silence as a way to bolster his own sense of being a man of God, or doing what is right in the face of petty human concerns like nationalism. He's someone who protects one vulnerable member of his flock even if it endangers his life and freedom. Tim is loving the position he is in and he's lucky enough to have a wife, who despite being in his thrall, is actually much smarter than him and has set up her own mutually assured destruction to protect her family.

[Christina]

When Groovy Pastor Tim first appeared, I thought he was going to be some type of cult leader under which Paige found herself enthralled. But nothing happened like that and at the end of that season, an article was released by J&J saying that he was just a true believer. Well, I watched, thought he was going to be a cult leader, and since so many others also thought that necessitating them to release a clarification of his intentions with Paige, I'm going to continue to believe he is ultimately planning to start a cult, and needs the blackmail material to keep the Jennings under his thumb.

No one will join my cult, Cult of Christina, even though we have moonshine and LSD laced brownies for sacrament, because people demand to get spiritual fulfillment from their religions and don't think they should sign away all their worldly possessions to me. Pffft. It doesn't help that my son follows along behind me to tell all my possible new cult members that I'm crazy, insist on taking a bite out of each brownie, and waters down the moonshine. So, I'm jealous of Groovy Pastor Tim, his groovy hair and his ability to gather a flock.

[Ina123]

3 hours ago, Christina said:

So, I'm jealous of Groovy Pastor Tim, his groovy hair and his ability to gather a flock.

Definitely not groovin' on the hair.

[millennium]

On 3/15/2017 at 0:44 AM, PinkRibbons said:

Please tell me there are other X-Files fans here who spent the greenhouse scene yelling "RUN SCULLY, RUN!!! THE BEEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!"

 

Instant flashback.   It had such an X-Files feel that I can only believe the show was paying homage to that scene.

I would like to nominate Keri Russell for this year's "Joey Tribbiani Butt Double Award" for the finest ass in a dramatic series.

[Bretton]

On 3/20/2017 at 0:18 PM, SlackerInc said:

But which passages?   Two of my most liberal friends (from different places) are devout Christians and are very conversant with the Bible.

The question around "which passages" is largely irrelevant.

Being "conversant" with the Bible and seeing it as a be-all-end-all "answer book" for daily living are two very different things.  If you're liberal, and conversant with the Bible, you see it as more of a historical text that outlines a trajectory for moral behavior. It's not seen as a once-and-for-all rule-book depicting ethical absolutes. No one is saying that ONLY conservative Christians open and read the Bible. But we ARE saying that how you view the text varies greatly depending on your idealogical presuppositions - regardless of which passages you're reading. And, as such, as a general rule, liberal Christian don't gather for weekly Bible studies, because the Bible itself doesn't hold the same absolute authority as it does for conservative Christians. 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Bretton

[kokapetl]

Don't ordained clergy have a disturbing amount of freedom with what they can hold in confidence? 

[Umbelina]

34 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Don't ordained clergy have a disturbing amount of freedom with what they can hold in confidence? 

I don't think any church other than the Catholic Church has any actual rules at all do they?

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Bretton said:

The question around "which passages" is largely irrelevant.

Being "conversant" with the Bible and seeing it as a be-all-end-all "answer book" for daily living are two very different things.  If you're liberal, and conversant with the Bible, you see it as more of a historical text that outlines a trajectory for moral behavior. It's not seen as a once-and-for-all rule-book depicting ethical absolutes. No one is saying that ONLY conservative Christians open and read the Bible. But we ARE saying that how you view the text varies greatly depending on your idealogical presuppositions - regardless of which passages you're reading. And, as such, as a general rule, liberal Christian don't gather for weekly Bible studies, because the Bible itself doesn't hold the same absolute authority as it does for conservative Christians. 

I agree with everything, except that liberal Christians don't typically gather for weekly Bible studies. It is a regular thing at my very liberal church - but the type of study is more in tune with your most excellent description of how liberal Christians view the bible.

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

11 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Don't ordained clergy have a disturbing amount of freedom with what they can hold in confidence? 

I don't think any church other than the Catholic Church has any actual rules at all do they?

The legal idea is applied to every faith, whether there's a formal rite of confession or not. Though in some states, if a member of clergy knows a crime is going to be committed, s/he has to say something. (In all states, knowing about child abuse is not confidential/privileged. The irony of that is staggering.)

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, Bretton said:

Being "conversant" with the Bible and seeing it as a be-all-end-all "answer book" for daily living are two very different things.  If you're liberal, and conversant with the Bible, you see it as more of a historical text that outlines a trajectory for moral behavior. It's not seen as a once-and-for-all rule-book depicting ethical absolutes. No one is saying that ONLY conservative Christians open and read the Bible. But we ARE saying that how you view the text varies greatly depending on your idealogical presuppositions - regardless of which passages you're reading. And, as such, as a general rule, liberal Christian don't gather for weekly Bible studies, because the Bible itself doesn't hold the same absolute authority as it does for conservative Christians. 

Yes, the way the first thing Paige did in response to the church was to be reading the actual Bible, plus her Bible full of stickies that she's studying at home implied to me that she was supposed to be using it as a guide to life in parallel to the way Elizabeth had the Cause and the teachings of Soviet socialism guiding her own. Plus then there was the later mention of weekly Bible study--one that people will notice if Paige isn't "into".  It certainly seemed like that Bible study, as well, was one for teenagers and while I'm sure you can and have a liberal church that holds Bible study for teens with a liberal bent, it's something I would connect more with a church that's Bible-based. In a more liberal church I would expect the Bible study to be something optional for adults who are interested in studying the Bible, not something that would support weekly meetings with 16-year-olds who would be called out if they're not showing enough enthusiasm for the study. That, too, implied to me that this is about applying things in the Bible to your own problems and life.

Of course, any expectation I would have could be proved wrong by some church out there. Churches don't all have to follow strict rules, of course. But these details absolutely make connections for me. So it was, for instance, odd to me that Paige was so closely studying scripture, so obsessed with going to church services alone or with her mother (she's not doing it for social reasons), talking about it as a way to make sense of her "crazy" life, wanting to be baptized, talking about praying to God in private and feeling a presence....and yet at the same time restricting most of her gushing about church to how important its secular political activity is. Like she's evangelizing for political activism but never ever for being saved by the Lord.

Edited March 25, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I'm not that interested in the whole religion thing, except as a parallel to "true believers" of all kinds, and that includes Elizabeth.  However, I don't think liberal Christian churches were that unusual in the eighties.  They were the ones that started the "sanctuary" movement in the USA, for example.  Anyway, here's and article that I only skimmed for the parts about eighties style youth groups.  http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/2006/august-online-only/scum-of-church-2-what-churches-should-learn-from-80s-youth.html

[Bretton]

On 3/25/2017 at 4:15 PM, Umbelina said:

However, I don't think liberal Christian churches were that unusual in the eighties.

Did someone say they were?

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 8:16 PM, aquarian1 said:

Let's get back to discussing THIS episode in this topic.  There are character topics, and a whole Past Seasons subforum where you can further discussion Henry vs Paige and details of sensing danger.

Pastor Tim was not in this episode either.  Come on, people!  :-)

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-03-17 at 10:59 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

I'm curious, why do you think this? It seems to me insulating the spies from each other would make sense, it keeps each of them unable to reveal the other. There's no reason Renee even knows P&E are Russian spies to begin with, the KGB can work Stan independent of P&E without having to expose one to the other. Having them know about each other at all seems more dangerous to me, just in case someone sharp like Stan picks up on something between them in their inevitable pot roast dinner scene. Seriously, has there ever been a neighbor more annoying than Stan? MAKE A FUCKING MEAL YOURSELF BRO.

I must apologize to you because I missed seeing this post when you first made it (around March 17th). At this time, I no longer remember what my thinking was and so I don't know how to answer you. Please excuse me. Darn it!