S06.E12: Murder Most Foul

[Shanna Marie]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The danger of that argument is it equally applies to Regina.  If she had died in Season 2, Snow, Charming and Emma would have died thirty times over.

However, we've also just been shown that their lives were much better without Regina playing a big role. I guess you could say that Snow and David might never have met without Regina because if Snow had never been Bandit Snow, she wouldn't have met David, but considering that he was being a prince, there's a good chance she might still have met him as a princess. No Regina in their lives, there's no curse and they get to bring up their daughter. Leo's still alive. Graham's still alive. Emma probably wouldn't have become the Dark One because it was Regina's need to prove that villains could find redemption that allowed Rumple to come back to town and become a threat. I figure the failsafe thing falls into the same category as the Dark Hook stuff, so with no Regina to set it up in the first place, Regina doesn't need to save them. She does do some helpful things along the way, like being able to force Ariel to retrieve Pandora's box and being able to escape the Tree of Regrets, and there's reversing the curse (but would that have been needed if she hadn't been so stubborn about Panry that she allowed him to get his hands on it in the first place?) and stopping Zelena. I'm counting the AU as a wash because without her "I must find the Author to rewrite my destiny" stuff, that never would have happened in the first place. The cost/benefit scales seem to be a lot more tilted in the other direction than for Hook. With him, there's one big negative that wouldn't have been significantly altered without his participation and a lot of positives. With her, there's one big, huge, honking, world-changing negative, a lot of other negatives, and a few positives. They can live with her and accept her in spite of that huge world-changing negative that disrupted all their lives severely. Will they be able to live with Hook's negative that he didn't aim at them and that wouldn't have changed much if he hadn't been there? (On this show, no, not until he proves himself again.)

[RadioGirl27]

19 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't really feel as bad for Hook being abandoned now...

 

9 hours ago, jhlipton said:

And that's how the writers win. 

Just pretend the last 5 minutes didn't happen and whenever it gets brought up change Hook to Regina.

Yeah, this. The writers thinks Regina is the one who has had the worst life, so I'm pretty sure that everytime they see that people think that Emma, Snow, Hook or Zelena all had worst childhoods than she did, they come up with these stories that either paint them in a bad light (Hook) or they have them thank her for giving them those awful childhood because they made them who they are (Snow, Emma).

Ugh, I hate A&E so much.

[kirkola]

On 3/13/2017 at 10:20 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

She had no idea the rose was a person, so that can't count against her.

 

Actually, I don't hold it against Belle.  I just get a little bored with her speeches.  She's the "True Love" of the Devil/Rumple.  Accept what you have or walk away...but stop giving him speeches. 

I just think it would be funny if Rumple threw it in her face.  Of course, Belle would feel guilty even though it's not technically her fault. 

[Olivia Y]

I came across a gifset on Tumblr of all the characters who've killed the parent of another character, and alongside Cora killing Eva and Regina killing Leopold, was Snow killing Cora. Okay I mean I guess technically that fits the the theme of the gifset, but it's mind-boggling to imagine those acts are someone on the same level. Cora and Regina weren't the least bit remorseful for what they did, whereas Snow was pretty much suicidal with guilt afterwards - not to mention Snow was the only one with a legitimate reason for killing. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

If Hook didn't show up where Robert was about to be killed, Robert would still have been dead, killed by George's men.

This.  I hope someone (not Hook, but someone) remembers to say this when David is all mad at Hook and wants him away from Emma next episode (if it comes to that.)  If George hadn't ordered Robert to be killed, he never would have been in Hook's line of fire in the first place.  Doesn't excuse Hook killing Random Peasant #? for no reason, but as you pointed out he didn't specifically target David/Emma's family like Regina did either.

[tri4335]

I think that this is just an expression of A & E's Joss Whedon love but instead of everyone dies by the end of the show in A & E's world everyone will be a murderer.  I mean at this point the only one left who hasn't murdered someone is Henry and one could argue he killed the "pen"!

[pezgirl7]

A fan made a movie trailer for this episode, edited as a fun romantic comedy. It's pretty good, and has no mention of the horrible ending!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=112&v=jRym06Oj7bo

[Shanna Marie]

Oh man, I'd be totally up for that movie. And it is amusing how perfectly in sync that counterclockwise turn was. There are Olympic ice dance teams whose turns aren't that synchronized.

You know, in a sane world/on a sane show, all of this would be a no-brainer -- the person who murdered your father isn't going to be your friend unless they do something big to make up for it, and the person who murdered your grandfather doesn't make for a good love interest. But this show's structure makes this so complicated. The event was so long in the past and so much has happened since then. If this revelation had come out in, say, season two, and if Hook had still done all the things he's done since then -- offering his ship to go to Neverland, saved David's life, gave up everything he owned to reach Emma and get her and Henry to Storybrooke, jumped through a time portal to help Emma, helped make sure that David and Snow met, sacrificed himself (and got killed by David) so Emma and Henry could undo the AU, got himself mortally wounded saving Snow's life, sacrificed himself to save them from the Dark One, was granted a second life by a god because he earned it -- then you could imagine David and Emma coming around to accepting him. But happening this way, with all those things happening before the revelation, it looks like he'll have to do even more. David's already killed him once, but I guess he'd need to do it again.

And then there's the crazy inconsistency of what they tolerate. As has been noted, David has known all along that George gave the order that got Ruth killed, but he hasn't gone after him to murder him all this time. Why only now? And that reaction doesn't bode well for Hook. In a vacuum, I could definitely understand having a serious grudge against the guy who killed your father, even if someone else had already given the order and he would have been dead anyway, and even if saving your life and your family's lives repeatedly might keep you from wanting to kill him, you still wouldn't exactly be on friendly terms. But this is also the show where they're friends with Regina, who murdered Snow's father, imprisoned David, tried to have both of them killed, tried to murder their newborn daughter, and schemed to keep him apart from his wife -- and she was knowingly doing it to target and attack them. So if he can be okay around Regina, but can't deal with the guy who literally died saving his wife's life and again saving his whole family, then it's David who comes out looking bad.

[Rumsy4]

30 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

So if he can be okay around Regina, but can't deal with the guy who literally died saving his wife's life and again saving his whole family, then it's David who comes out looking bad.

Wow! This really is messed up, isn't it? 

[Camera One]

If anything, the way this episode is set up actually DOES have us feeling sorry for Hook, despite what we find out in the flashback.  The entire episode, Hook is feeling insecure, David is being mean and Hook is coerced into helping even though he didn't want to, and the intended emotion at the end is "Oh no!  I want Hook to be accepted, and now this!"  So "it's David who comes out looking bad" is pretty much assumed, regardless of the Regina stuff.  

As much as I do feel badly for Hook, what's messed up is once again, we're set up to feel sorry for the murderer and any way you cut it, the victim's son is going to be the one making the hurtful comments.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

I was listening to a discussion on NPR about America's founding fathers, and surprisingly, it made me feel a little bit better about this Hook reveal. 

They were discussing how much society's rules and standards change over time, and even though 200 years is relatively young for a country, our society has drastically evolved over the centuries. The main gist of the discussion was how many Americans hold the founding fathers on these untouchable pedestals as American heroes who did no wrong, yet history shows us that several of them were slave owners, they'd participate in gun duels to the death, and/or they held other social views that would make them seem bigoted if we were to meet them in 2017. But that's the thing—we can't judge them based on our 2017 standards, we have to view these people based on what was acceptable in society when they were alive. So if we were to time travel back to the 1700s, it wouldn't be exactly fair to yell at these people for doing things that have since been deemed unacceptable long after their deaths.

So with this Hook flashback, we have to take into account the timeline when this act occurred and the different societal standards the Enchanted Forest has versus our real world. (I know, I know…insert laugh track here because TS;TW has, like, zero world building rules.) The Enchanted Forest is a weird place where it's hard to pinpoint an equivalent century of history we can compare it to in our real world, but much of the Enchanted Forest looks like it could have taken place centuries ago. For a character like Captain Hook, we should probably assume he spent most of his time living in a world where piracy was a normal thing to do. When we think about our real world equivalent to what Hook is used to—the Golden Age of Piracy—that took place during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The pirates who lived during that era were ruthless pirates who would make our Captain Hook look like a kitten. So when we look at Killian killing Robert through a lens where society's rules and norms are equivalent to our 1700s, his act doesn't seem as jarring. If Hook was desperate to maintain a crew, he also could have been pressured into looking ruthless in front of his new crew members. I have a feeling if Hook was by himself he probably would have let Robert go, but if those two pirates who were with Hook were even more ruthless, Hook couldn’t risk looking weak. Obviously, what Hook did is still morally wrong and this isn’t trying to justify his actions, but if you were to view Hook as if he was on the show Black Sails, he doesn't appear so severe.

(This is why I'm always much harsher on Regina for what she's done in Storybrooke as a villain versus her time in the Enchanted Forest. Medieval societal rules are much different than modern rules, so I can hand wave her killing random peasants easier than I can her killing Graham in cold blood.)

Also, we have to take into consideration how old Hook is at the time he kills Robert. It's hard for us to empathize with people like Hook and Rumple for living centuries because we have no way of knowing what that feels like, but living that long has to really change a man's perspective on life, afterlife, and morality. Hook is probably around 200 years old by the time he kills Robert, so he's someone who has already lived far longer than he should. Because of this, Killian has outlived generations of people and has seen numerous families and friends live and die over and over and over again. By 200 years, Hook is so desensitized to death that he doesn't even flinch when he stabs Robert. To him, Robert is merely another mortal man who will die eventually, just like everybody else the past 200 years, but Hook will always stay the same age. Imagine Hook making a cake run for Pan and meeting a small child in the Enchanted Forest. In the blink of an eye, the next time he sees the child, the child is actually an old man on the verge of death. Lather, rinse, repeat every time Hook leaves Neverland doing chores for a sociopathic teenager. I could see how Hook would become extremely nihilistic and not care about other people's lives because it's all meaningless anyways—they're all going to die, like all men do (except for him)—so what's the harm in ending a man's life a few years earlier? (This is the only area where I have sympathy for Rumple as well, but the writers never bother to explore the psyche of these characters who've lived for centuries.)

Even though he used to believe in "good form," a 200-year-old Hook who has a much more jaded outlook on life better explains his actions in this episode. I considered Hook stabbing Robert and whacking Belle unconscious in the tower in Season 2 as two of his most out of character moments in the series, but looking back, maybe it does start to make sense if you view Hook as becoming so cynical during his old age that he can't even empathize with mortal people anymore. He's essentially losing his humanity. Those two OOC acts happened when Hook was much older compared to his other flashbacks. The Liam and Ursula flashbacks happened much earlier in Hook's history, maybe he was 18 and 100 years old instead of 200, but the difference between being 100 and 200 could be extremely significant—it could be the difference between a Captain Hook who's willing to let Ursula board his ship and a Captain Hook who has no time for a man tied up to a wagon and kills him. And his Ariel flashback is a bit tamer because he had met Emma at that point, who brought back his humanity.

So yeah, basically the TL;DR version of this is that if Hook did something like this during the current Storybrooke timeline where we can judge him based on modern societal rules, then it's total character assassination. But knowing that this act occurred decades ago and the societal rules in the land where he committed the crime is completely different to our modern norms and Robert was bound to die anyways, it's a bit easier to swallow.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Curio

[Camera One]

That's true regarding history (in fact, I am making notes on that very topic right now for work), but the worldbuilding is so all-over-the-place that one can't just assume that there was a consistent "standard" in the Enchanted Forest.  There have been modern moral standards applied to certain characters like Snow. This line of argument can also easily be used to justify Regina on many of her "crimes".  I'm sure in medieval times, it was perfectly normal to have a sex slave.  Killian himself would have refused to excuse his murder of Robert on grounds that it was normal for the society at the time.  

But at the end of the day, there's no need for all that because Hook WILL be forgiven.  More interesting to me is how this whole event was framed to push viewers towards a certain side.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That's true regarding history (in fact, I am making notes on that very topic right now for work), but the worldbuilding is so all-over-the-place that one can't just assume that there was a consistent "standard" in the Enchanted Forest.  There have been modern moral standards applied to certain characters like Snow. This line of argument can also easily be used to justify Regina on many of her "crimes".  I'm sure in medieval times, it was perfectly normal to have a sex slave.  Killian himself would have refused to excuse his murder of Robert on grounds that it was normal for the society at the time.

 

Yeah, that's why I put in a disclaimer about judging the characters harsher in Storybrooke versus the Enchanted Forest. Regina snapping the neck of a guard is easier to forgive than Regina killing Graham because Mayor Regina had a modern world brain download. Because of the Storybrooke modern download, that means she should have learned what is and isn't acceptable in modern times versus medieval times. And yes, Robert's murder is still murder and Killian should feel guilty about it, but as an audience member, thinking about it with a historical lens makes it less out of character. I've been struggling with the fact that it seemed so out of character, so this is my attempt to make myself feel better.

[Camera One]

One of the bigger discrepancies is due to Killian's own "Good Form" code, though your explanation that he is older and more jaded during this flashback could explain it.  

I kind of think A&E&J should have been responsible for thinking this through, and viewers shouldn't have to fill in the holes for their out of character twists and actions.

[Rumsy4]

To me, I can't take what Killian did as in any way shape or form either in-character, or palatable. Stabbing a man who was tied up to protect his identity was the action of a coward--something Killian has not been shown as. Not does it accord with his persona as a pirate, and his need to maintain his image as a ruthless pirate. Moreover, this was not a crime of passion nor done in the name of revenge--which again have been his reasons for doing horrible things until now. 

Basically, this was the eggnapping equivalent to make Killian look as bad as Regina or Rumple. But added to that, we will have to wade through Killian's guilt and self-loathing angst, and him potentially keeping secrets from Emma again, and jumping through hoops to make amends--which is really getting unbearable to watch. Even returning from the dead--and by Zeus nonetheless, is rendered pointless if he has to go through the same character beats again--and in worse form. 

This was an absurd twist, and I can never take it seriously the same way I can never take the Eggnapping seriously.  By that I mean they're so ludicrous, that I can't be bothered to think up of meta reasons why they might work in-story. The Eggnapping basically turned Snow into a cardboard cut out. I just hope this doesn't do the same for Hook. But I really am done with the Show emotionally. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I kind of think A&E&J should have been responsible for thinking this through, and viewers shouldn't have to fill in the holes for their out of character twists and actions.

 

 

Yeah...When viewers have to cite historical situations and bring up nihilism in order to make sense out of things, maybe the writers didn't do such a bang up job.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

If anything, the way this episode is set up actually DOES have us feeling sorry for Hook, despite what we find out in the flashback.  The entire episode, Hook is feeling insecure, David is being mean and Hook is coerced into helping even though he didn't want to, and the intended emotion at the end is "Oh no!  I want Hook to be accepted, and now this!"  So "it's David who comes out looking bad" is pretty much assumed, regardless of the Regina stuff.  

Really, the writing going back almost to the beginning of the relationship between Hook and David has set up the "how dare you be mean to the poor woobie murderer" thing. For one thing, David's animosity toward Hook has always come across more like bigotry than anything valid. He's never talked about things Hook actually did to harm him or people he cares about. It's always been more vague criticism about Hook being a pirate. He hasn't acted like he disliked Hook for anything Hook did to him or his family, but because of the things he assumed Hook must have done in his past, based on the kind of person he believed Hook to be, and regardless of the fact that Hook pretty much stopped being that person and stopped doing those things within a couple of weeks or so of meeting David, and has expressed remorse and regret about having done those things. Then there's the structure of the Standard Issue CaptainCharming Bromance Episode, in which any progress David has made in his attitude toward Hook has to be reset to square one so the change will be more dramatic, the two of them are working together because Hook is helping David with something, David spends the entire episode berating the person who's helping him for having been a bad person in the past (and assumes he's still a bad person, in spite of the fact that Hook is currently putting himself on the line to help him or his family), then Hook does something big and dramatic to save the day or to show his devotion to them, and David realizes that Hook isn't such a bad person, after all -- until the next time he needs Hook's help again, and then he'll reset and go back to treating him like he's the scum of the earth. The first time, in "Good Form," it made some sense, though was still a little silly, considering that Hook had already put himself and his ship on the line to help them, so David was out of line. It was getting ridiculous in "White Out," after Hook had saved David's life, brought Emma back to her family and had jumped through a time portal for her. By this episode, David's attitude was utterly insane, given that for most of seasons 4 and 5 David had treated Hook like the Emma Whisperer and trusted him to deal with Emma when her parents couldn't cope with her trauma, and then there were the multiple times Hook sacrificed himself to help that family, including one time in which David himself killed Hook. Then we finally get to a time when David might have something to be genuinely angry about, but we've had too many cases of the Shepherd Who Cried Pirate to have much sympathy. He's been treating Hook all along like he thought he murdered his father, in spite of Hook's actual behavior, so now that he's actually right, the impulse is to shrug. It's like he's already punished Hook for this event that happened in the past, so he doesn't have a lot of room to punish him further.

12 hours ago, Curio said:

Hook is probably around 200 years old by the time he kills Robert, so he's someone who has already lived far longer than he should. Because of this, Killian has outlived generations of people and has seen numerous families and friends live and die over and over and over again. By 200 years, Hook is so desensitized to death that he doesn't even flinch when he stabs Robert.

I don't know that this actually applies, though, because Hook is that old because he's living in Neverland, where nobody ages. He's surrounded by the people he cares about -- his crew and Bae -- and they aren't growing old and dying. He's not outliving generations of families and friends. However, he has lost a lot, which could affect his attitude toward death. He lost Liam and Milah in very horrible ways, and he mentioned having lost a lot of his original crew early in their stay in Neverland. There was also a war along the way.

However, the one thing that might kind of explain (but not excuse) what he did to Robert might be the history he has with people proving untrustworthy. There was his father, giving him that pep talk about choosing the kind of man he wanted to be, only to utterly betray and abandon him. There was the captain who was going to let them buy their freedom, but who then cheated him out of his money. There was the king who sent them to gather a healing herb that was actually a deadly poison to be used for genocide. There was Pan, leaving out the effect of the "cure" for the poison. There was Rumple, who was supposed to let them buy their freedom with the magic bean but who killed Milah and cut off Hook's hand. So if someone says he's not going to tell anyone about the killing and theft, Hook's not likely to believe him. (Though I still have a hard time believing that he would care ...)

[Camera One]

Quote

The first time, in "Good Form," it made some sense, though was still a little silly

Now that you mention it, it's amazing that the same conflict structure could be repeated 3.5 seasons later, with nary a difference.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't know that this actually applies, though, because Hook is that old because he's living in Neverland, where nobody ages. He's surrounded by the people he cares about -- his crew and Bae -- and they aren't growing old and dying. He's not outliving generations of families and friends. However, he has lost a lot, which could affect his attitude toward death. He lost Liam and Milah in very horrible ways, and he mentioned having lost a lot of his original crew early in their stay in Neverland. There was also a war along the way.

But it's also established that Hook routinely ran errands for Pan, so in my head canon (it's kind of annoying that we all probably have very different head canons because of the lazy world building), Hook probably got a week off every year to do an annual supply run. During his week-long vacations to the Enchanted Forest running into Ursula, running into Robert, or wherever he needed to go, it's not inconceivable to think he met people during these visits and made acquaintances or friends with some of them. (He and Ursula hit it off before he betrayed her.) If Hook frequented the same tavern year after year, it would be disconcerting to see all the locals getting older while he stayed the same age.

We also have no idea how time works in Neverland. So one Neverland year to Hook could actually mean 50 years passed by in the Enchanted Forest. So let's say Hook met up with a nice gal at a tavern and promised he'd meet her there one year later, but one year later in Hook's Neverland time is actually 50 years for her, and now she's dead. And then during a different year, what feels like 70 years for Hook stuck in Neverland could actually be just one day in the Enchanted Forest. Neverland time seems so wonky that it could change drastically like that over Hook's two centuries there. If the timeline wasn't always aligned perfectly to the Enchanted Forest, that could also explain why Hook has trouble remembering if he's closer to 200 years or 300 years. (Yes, I realize that was probably just the writers messing up the dialogue because they don't have a proper show bible, but it could also be that Hook genuinely doesn't know how long he spent in Neverland because of how strangely time works there.)

Quote

However, the one thing that might kind of explain (but not excuse) what he did to Robert might be the history he has with people proving untrustworthy. There was his father, giving him that pep talk about choosing the kind of man he wanted to be, only to utterly betray and abandon him. There was the captain who was going to let them buy their freedom, but who then cheated him out of his money. There was the king who sent them to gather a healing herb that was actually a deadly poison to be used for genocide. There was Pan, leaving out the effect of the "cure" for the poison. There was Rumple, who was supposed to let them buy their freedom with the magic bean but who killed Milah and cut off Hook's hand. 

This explains why he got so upset at Emma for betraying him at the beanstalk. The one time he decides to trust someone and believe them, he gets screwed again.

Quote

So if someone says he's not going to tell anyone about the killing and theft, Hook's not likely to believe him. (Though I still have a hard time believing that he would care ...)

I could also see Hook not totally buying the story about being a father who just wants to get back to his family. I don't know if Hook missed the part where the guy covered Robert in alcohol, but running across a disheveled man who smells like booze and is tied up to a wagon wheel doesn't exactly scream father of the year award. Or, maybe Hook thought about his father who never returned for him and Liam, so he figured this father would pull a Brennan and never go back to his family.

I still don't understand why they couldn't have thrown in a line about Robert selling his son to the Dark One. That one line alone could have easily set off Hook and explained his action, so how could the writers not even go there? It's such low hanging fruit that the fruit is underground.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Curio

[orza]

I really liked this episode, even the final scene.

It's not in any way surprising that Hook killed Robert. Robbing the king and killing his royal guards was a big deal that would put a permanent price on his head. Of course Hook would kill the only witness to his crime so he doesn't have to worry about being caught on his supply runs for Pan. That's just common sense from his perspective. It really is not a stretch that Hook would see it as in his best interest to kill Robert and would not feel bad about doing so.

Also, Hook lived in a time and place where people had a completely different attitude toward death and killing than we do. That was clearly established early in the first season. Hook was just as much a product of his time as the other characters. A complicated explanation for his behavior is really not needed.

Hook was not some gentleman pirate who politely relieved folks of their valuables while taking care not to harm them. He was a full-blooded pirate, the kind who pillages, rapes, kills and commits other despicable acts of violence. We have seen a bit of it and Hook has talked a bit about his exploits. All his talk about "good form" is like Emma and her superpower. It's just something he likes to believe he has but really doesn't. Everyone has some delusion about themselves that they hang onto so they can feel better about themselves or believe they are more special than they actually are.

[jhlipton]

15 hours ago, Curio said:

Yeah...When viewers have to cite historical situations and bring up nihilism in order to make sense out of things, maybe the writers didn't do such a bang up job.

Gee, ya think???  LOL

2 hours ago, orza said:

Hook was not some gentleman pirate who politely relieved folks of their valuables while taking care not to harm them.

No Dread Pirate Roberts, he.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Now that you mention it, it's amazing that the same conflict structure could be repeated 3.5 seasons later, with nary a difference.

They did do kind of a twist by combining the Standard Issue Captain Charming Bromance Episode with bits of the Standard Issue Hook Remorse for His Past Episode.

The Short Attention-Span Theater version of the interactions between Hook and David:

HOOK: Here, mate, let me help you with that.
DAVID: You're only trying to help because you like Emma.
HOOK: And there's a problem with that?
DAVID: You're pirate scum and you'll never be worthy of Emma.
(Hook saves David's life)
DAVID: Hey, everyone, let's drink to Hook, my new best friend, who saved my life!
(They work together, usually in the background, David relies on Hook to talk to Emma when she's upset, Hook does good and heroic things. They seem to get along okay.)
DAVID: Help me save Emma.
HOOK: Already on it.
DAVID: But don't go getting any ideas about her. A pirate like you doesn't deserve her.
(David softens when he sees how devoted Emma and Hook are to each other. Hook does more heroic stuff, sacrifices himself, gets along okay with David, David's the one person who welcomes him back from the dead)
DAVID: You've got to help me, but I don't want to hear any input from a pirate like you, who is utterly worthless, even if I do need your help with this. Do what you do best: lie, cheat, and steal.
HOOK: Oh, I see it's time for our episode again.

[Rumsy4]

David's hot and cold treatment of Hook contrasted with freaking naming his son after the man who knocked up his underage daughter and left her holding the bag is really mind boggling. I donno why Killian looks up to him. Prince Charming is bit of a  sexist bigot (and am saying this as someone who likes Charming despite his flaws).

[Jul 68]

On 03/13/2017 at 1:08 AM, Camera One said:

 I can't believe they seemed to acknowledge the hypocrisy of Regina by mentioning the cabinet of hearts, and yet STILL have Regina keep them.  Does that mean they're not that self-aware or what?  Did they expect us to be satisfied with Regina saying "I know I sound like a hypocrite?"

Just watched the episode and I'm only on page 2 of the comments, but I had to share my thoughts on this recurring issue.

I think they're planning to have Regina return the hearts as her final triumphant act of redemption. They'll probably save it for the final episode. The hearts of those already dead will turn into butterflies, rainbows, unicorn farts, or something else stupid.

I believe that this was their plan all along. They keep showing us the crypt to remind us that the hearts are still there (because they think we're slow that way).

[Mathius]

On 3/17/2017 at 1:43 PM, orza said:

It's not in any way surprising that Hook killed Robert. Robbing the king and killing his royal guards was a big deal that would put a permanent price on his head.

He's a bloody pirate!  He already has a permanent price on his head due to the nature of his career!  Killing witnesses is what a criminal who doesn't want to be exposed as such does.  Hook is already known as a criminal, in fact he flaunts being a criminal since that builds reputation.  I'm sorry, but for a character like Hook, killing a witness to his crimes makes no sense whatsoever. 

Quote

It really is not a stretch that Hook would see it as in his best interest to kill Robert and would not feel bad about doing so.

Actually, I think he did feel some guilt, since he had a somber tone as he addressed Robert as "this poor departed soul".

Quote

He was a full-blooded pirate, the kind who pillages, rapes, kills and commits other despicable acts of violence. We have seen a bit of it and Hook has talked a bit about his exploits. 

Yes...in pursuit of revenge against Rumple.  That was Hook's driving obsession for all he did.  What does robbing King George achieve for that goal to be met?   Nothing at all. It's mindless villainy for the sake of it, and that was not how Hook as a villain had been portrayed as before now.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Mathius

[Daisy]

wow. i'm two weeks behind?
geezer. let me catch up. 

[Camera One]

Glad you're going to catch up.  Part of me feels like Baelfire trying to pull other people into dark portals.

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

Glad you're going to catch up.  Part of me feels like Baelfire trying to pull other people into dark portals.

I think that Dark Portal you speak of is the new Legend of Zelda game. (laugh). i was so obsessed with it i barely made it in to work but in regards to the show - I knew i was one episode behind then i saw where i watch and i noted the date and i was like that didn't seem right - but yup. two weeks behind. y'all can't get rid of me that easily ;) 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Yes...in pursuit of revenge against Rumple.  That was Hook's driving obsession for all he did.  What does robbing King George achieve for that goal to be met?   Nothing at all. It's mindless villainy for the sake of it, and that was not how Hook as a villain had been portrayed as before now.

This is what ruins the "misunderstood" villains of the show. With Regina and Rumple, their evil was in the name of a grander scheme. Regina was blinded by revenge, Rumple wanted to get back to his son. But, as time went on, we saw them sidetrack more with mass murders and petty villainy. It really taxed them on their redeemability. Hook has got it way better than they do, but it's the same principle.

[Mathius]

18 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

This is what ruins the "misunderstood" villains of the show. With Regina and Rumple, their evil was in the name of a grander scheme. Regina was blinded by revenge, Rumple wanted to get back to his son. But, as time went on, we saw them sidetrack more with mass murders and petty villainy. It really taxed them on their redeemability. Hook has got it way better than they do, but it's the same principle.

Exactly.  Hook is just now getting this, but it happened with Regina and Rumple long ago.  If the show goes on any longer, Zelena will follow suit.

[KingOfHearts]

I was watching 4x02, and this exchange happened:

Quote

Charming: "I think it's time you and I have a little talk about your intentions with my daughter."
Hook: "That's a little old-fashioned, even by my standards, and I still pay with doubloons."

That's the complete opposite of what they said in this episode.

[Camera One]

Wow, that doubly confirms that the Writers did not bother to re-read the script to "White Out" when writing this one.  The inconsistencies of the Father story was bad enough. 

On second thought, the Writers would say that conversation precipitated Hook feeling the need to ask for permission in this episode.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I was watching 4x02, and this exchange happened:

That's the complete opposite of what they said in this episode.

Exactly. That's why it makes no sense.

[jhlipton]

21 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Exactly. That's why it makes no sense.

And therefore, for TSTW, it makes perfect sense!

[Camera One]

I would love to see the Writers try to answer some of the questions.  It really is indefensible.

[Mathius]

What's worse is that this is a Jane Espenson episode...and Jane Espenson also wrote "White Out"!

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not sure I see it as a complete contradiction. It's not that Hook thinks it's important that he has David's blessing, but that he realizes that it would be important to David, and if David isn't giving his blessing, it could make things very awkward and difficult for Emma. He also knows that David runs really hot and cold regarding him, so it's understandable if he wants to get things out in the open and make things very clear. Is this the week that David embraces his return from the dead, or the week that David wants him to stay away from his daughter? We don't know what Hook would have done if David had refused to give his blessing. Would he have still proposed and let Emma decide for herself, knowing that her family didn't approve, or would he have backed off and tried to prove himself some more and hope he could improve his relationship with David?

[Camera One]

Other parallels... Emma recently almost died, but Snow is not informed throughout the entire episode and instead gets slotted into Subplot C.  

Another interesting quote from "White Out":

ELSA: I ended up queen of a large land, unprepared.

EMMA: I hear you with unprepared.  I'm, get this, a "savior.  I'm still not sure what the hell that means.

Yeah, 2.5 seasons later, we still don't know what that means.

[Camera One]

This show is so full of hidden symbolism.  Like the scene where Wish Robin and Regina have a conversation beside a window display for soap and baking soda.  Oh, it was a coincidence?

[Hecate7]

On 3/13/2017 at 1:38 PM, Shanna Marie said:

About Robin ... there was the theory that Wish!Robin was created as part of David's wish that the Evil Queen would get what she deserved, and since Regina and the Evil Queen are the same person, getting a brand new Robin was Regina getting what she deserved, but that doesn't quite fit if Wish!Robin isn't Regina's soulmate (well, some of us might think that not being given a brand new Robin is what Regina deserves, but the show clearly doesn't see it that way). The other theory was that somehow the essence of Robin was what created the new Robin, and that was why he was real enough to come to this world and why he was out of sync age-wise with the rest of that world. Except if he was made of the essence of Real!Robin, you'd think he'd have been Regina's soulmate still. And none of this explains how Nottingham was on the same timeline with Robin and also not aged.

That is an excellent theory, and a Robin that isn't her true love is exactly what Regina/EQ deserved, considering the current curse on the Charmings. 

[Daisy]

I really. really Don't like David. 
(sigh) I guess I need to get on the Captain Swan Train if he's gonna propose. why the hell did they make it that Hook killed the dad. they didn't need to do that. geeze this show wants to general hospital itself into annoyance. 

[Shanna Marie]

Thoughts upon rewatching (minus the last few minutes) ...

Was that really the ghost of David's father, or was it David's sleep-deprived brain? Because if it was a ghost encouraging him to find his murderer, you'd think he'd have been a bit more specific or said something about the guy David was hanging around with.

David's truck was right there in front of the house when Emma showed up, and she didn't notice? Some sheriff she is.

You'd think George would have renamed the kid. The evil king who's buying a baby to pass off as his own probably isn't going to be concerned about keeping an infant's name, and besides, wouldn't he want to cut any connection with the former family? Or did he just happen to accidentally name the kid the same name he was given by his birth family?

I still don't see how George and his men knew Robert was a drunk or knew that he was supposedly on a supply run. I'm not even sure they'd have known the right route for him to have been on.

And back in season one, wasn't George surprised by the fact that James was a twin, so there was a potential replacement? He didn't seem to know anything about James's birth family.

[MedievalGirl]

I'm watching this and family members keep walking in during Robin's scenes and saying "I thought he was dead." So in my brain canon Robin has an eye patch and will need to help someone escape from Storybrook. 

[Camera One]

52 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And back in season one, wasn't George surprised by the fact that James was a twin, so there was a potential replacement? He didn't seem to know anything about James's birth family.

Yes:

King George: I thought you said he was gone forever?

Rumpelstiltskin: Oh, that he is. But his brother…

King George: His what?

Rumpelstiltskin: His twin brother. Did I not mention there was another?

[Shanna Marie]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

King George: I thought you said he was gone forever?

Rumpelstiltskin: Oh, that he is. But his brother…

King George: His what?

Rumpelstiltskin: His twin brother. Did I not mention there was another?

Ha! So they didn't bother to check the backstory, with George here knowing that Robert wanted to bring James home and be greeted by his twin brother.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Ha! So they didn't bother to check the backstory, with George here knowing that Robert wanted to bring James home and be greeted by his twin brother.

I think the Writer might say that it was King George in his cell who said that, so he was saying this in hindsight now that he knew James had a twin.

On Pleasure Island, the Dad didn't mention anything about David.

I was surprise George would let the men know that his son was someone else's.  Not afraid of blackmail?

Edited March 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think the Writer might say that it was King George in his cell who said that, so he was saying this in hindsight now that he knew James had a twin.

On Pleasure Island, the Dad didn't mention anything about David.

Ha, shows you how big an impact it had on me. I just watched this and that didn't click. However, it did seem like George knew way more about James's birth family than you'd have thought, and was more willing to talk openly about such a deep, dark secret.

One other question that occurred to me: Hook refers to Archie as "the Cricket," but how does he know this? We've never seen him interacting with Archie in cricket form. I guess we'll get that in a future retcon flashback, but as far as we know, to Hook Archie is just the town shrink.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

 was more willing to talk openly about such a deep, dark secret.

That struck me as well.  He was way too eager to talk.  He would have wanted to torture David by revealing nothing or making his father seem worse than he was.  He also somehow knew that David was told he died as a drunk.  I suppose George could have made doubly sure that David's mother was given that story. 

It seems like there are an awful lot of little leaps the audience has to make.  Not huge leaps by any means, but still, it just makes the episode not flow as well when you wonder these things.

[snarkastic]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

One other question that occurred to me: Hook refers to Archie as "the Cricket," but how does he know this? We've never seen him interacting with Archie in cricket form. I guess we'll get that in a future retcon flashback, but as far as we know, to Hook Archie is just the town shrink.

I think they were in the vicinity of each other when everyone got sent back to the Enchanted Forest for a couple of hours. Archie was on Grumpy's shoulder in cricket former during those scenes.

[KAOS Agent]

Cora referred to him as a cricket when she presented him as a gift to Hook in "The Cricket Game"