“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[MAK]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Or Amy. Dean felt bad about lying... but not enough to let Sam get over it in his own time. ("Stop being a bitch.")

Sam told Dean to "move on, or I will." He said it after Dean was still upset that Sam hadn't bothered to figure out what happened to him when he disappeared. IMO, being upset that your brother didn't bother trying to confirm what happened to you isn't on the same level as killing a monster you knew for 5 minutes when you were 12.

Other things Dean mentioned under the penny's influence were Ruby and demon blood. Those were personal betrayals. One of the things Dean asked of Sam before dying, was that Sam not use his powers, and Sam strengthens and hones his powers. In the hotel, Dean asks Sam to not go with Ruby, just because Dean's asked, and Sam punches him and leaves. Sam asks Dean to trust him about Amy, and Dean goes and kills her. Is this really the same? Could Dean trust Sam's judgment when he was hallucinating Lucifer?

You can't even compare Amy and Benny. Yes, Amy saved Sam by killing her Mom, and Sam let her go, so they were even. But did she kill her Mom just to save Sam, or it was an excuse so she could escape that life? Sam was the one who said they should give a pass to "vegetarian" monsters. As far as Dean knew, Benny had not killed/turned any human since coming out of Purgatory. But, Amy, almost 20 years later, was killing humans. On top of that, Dean and Benny fought at each other's sides for a year, they had each other's backs. Is the Amy/Sam relationship at the same level for Sam to feel so betrayed, when Sam's judgment was impaired?

[gonzosgirrl]

I think if you take away the 'but Sam did/said' to justify Dean's actions, and the 'but Dean did/said' to justify Sam's, Sam is going to lose the good/right/unselfish race, pretty much every time. JMO. Most of his defense is 'whataboutism'.

Edited January 4, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

The actual quote was:  "You almost got us both killed, so you can be pissed all you want, but quit being a bitch."  Not exactly the same.

I'm not sure that that is better, because how exactly is Sam supposed to be pissed then, since being bitchy about it is pretty much his go to? ; ) But seriously, putting restrictions on how someone can be pissed is partially demanding that someone just suck it up. Especially - at least in my opinion - since Dean said that he wouldn't push, just work the case together... and then did push and complained when Sam did just work the case with him. The main thing, however, was that once Dean did explain his reasoning and why he lied, Sam accepted that explanation and forgave him. Dean could have saved a lot of heartache if he had told Sam sooner rather than lying to him and keeping it to himself.

As I said, generally Sam's beef seems to be Dean making decisions for him without giving him a say in the matter. Sam's generally pretty consistent about that.

7 hours ago, MAK said:

Sam told Dean to "move on, or I will." He said it after Dean was still upset that Sam hadn't bothered to figure out what happened to him when he disappeared. IMO, being upset that your brother didn't bother trying to confirm what happened to you isn't on the same level as killing a monster you knew for 5 minutes when you were 12.

I never said it was. I wasn't making this comparison, so I'm not sure how season 8 got into this discussion. I think Carver's writing of Sam in season 8 was pretty crappy, and I can't defend anything Sam did there. I personally think that Carver had some kind of bug up his butt or something that Gamble was the show runner ahead of him and pretty much tried to undo everything she had done in terms of character development for Sam. He even pretty much ignored the awesome set up Gamble left for him in favor of some soap opera romance almost no one wanted to see and ignored the stories everyone did want to see. I believe, if I remember correctly, that he even complained about the shitty set up that she left for him... which what? The purgatory story was gold as far as I'm concerned and a perfect set up for Dean to gain some independence and self-perspective. Instead Carver trashed all of that to make Sam and Dean more pathologically dependent than ever. And instead did this:

7 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

It has been a long time I made it all the way through 8 & 9 in order & without skipping bits and pieces because it is such a bitchy, dramatic slog to get through imo,

Which: exactly.

And as a transition...

7 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

...but while we're on the topic of Gadreel I do think it is important to note that Dean never actually says sorry for that, and he says sorry a lot. He gets up to it, but just trails off and doesn't finish the sentence, because while he's sorry Sam got hurt he's not sorry for his actions. It saved Sam's life and while he might like to change the details he probably can't guarantee he wouldn't do it again, how can he be sorry.

That was basically my point. And Dean didn't have to be sorry for saving Sam - I don't think he had anything to be sorry about there - but he could have been sorry for lying to Sam and for all of the pain and mental anguish that ended up causing Sam. While yes, Sam was a jerk for basically this:

Quote

So while Sam's emotions are clearly sympathetic in this scenario it still comes across as hypocritical, because on some level he is aware of just how much "because we're brothers" has worked as a cure-all in his favor thus far. By saying "everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family" he even accidentally mirrors their conversation when they split in Season 5, a split which is pretty quickly and definitively shown to be the wrong decision that Dean has to correct.

Dean also knew perfectly well that one of Sam's things was his worrying he would go evil again, fall into his addiction, and/or have his dark nature take over*** - it's been a thing with Sam since season 1 - yet Dean let Sam stay in that concerned and questioning state for months, shrugging it off to Sam, and it ultimately lead to Gadreel using Sam's body to kill Kevin. Dean just glossing over that point with a "Somebody changed the playbook" excuse rather than finishing his apology and owning up to how insensitive and hurtful his lying (not the original decision) was to Sam was a bit callous, in my opinion. Yes Dean was in pain, but it was partly a pain of his own making, because as someone (I think it was @catrox14, @ahrtee or @gonzosgirrl?) so eloquently explained earlier in this thread, had Dean explained about Gadreel earlier, Sam likely would have chosen to keep Gadreel around to heal himself, and Sam wouldn't have been as upset and angry. (With the added benefit that Sam could have kept a closer eye out for inconsistencies for what they were and maybe figured out that Gadreel was a problem.) But all of that got forgotten in favor of the narrative the writers wanted to push... which would have been made messy by acknowledging that.

But as you said, Sam came across as the hypocritical one here, because the writers chose to ignore that set up about Sam's concerns and Dean's lying ("Sharp Teeth" was - surprise - another Adam Glass episode, so Sam coming across as insensitive isn't much of a surprise. Garth's description of Sam versus his description of Dean to his wife in that episode is pretty much an indication of what Adam Glass thinks of Sam's character.) and instead focus on how hypocritical and mean Sam was being for being angry with Dean.

And Dean - and the writers, especially - still doesn't address this later on when he has a chance. It becomes all about saving Sam's life instead so that Sam once again becomes the hypocrite and looks like the insensitive one.

*** At least in the Carver era again... Sam's character development in season 6B and 7 concerning this was thrown out the window when Carver took over, so apparently it was a thing again.

7 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

then Dean is expected to put aside the damage done to their trust in season 5, he didn't blow up or send Sam away until Sam suggested it, and even though he didn't really want to he comes back after just one episode when asked and was shown yet again that Sam needs him,

While this is true, I personally thought Sam was very cognizant of this in season 5 and worked very hard to accommodate Dean on that front. Except for "Fallen Idols"*** he often followed Dean's lead, backed Dean's decisions concerning the angels up even if it meant his own life, and took Dean's passive-aggressive jab here and there without much complaint. He also backed Dean up when no one else believed in him anymore. Because of "Fallen Idols," I don't think Sam gets much credit for how he didn't push Dean the entire rest of the season after that episode.

*** that episode being enough of an exception that I always wondered if it was supposed to come before "The End" (it would have fit much better there).

Edited January 4, 2021 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, MAK said:

Other things Dean mentioned under the penny's influence were Ruby and demon blood. Those were personal betrayals. One of the things Dean asked of Sam before dying, was that Sam not use his powers, and Sam strengthens and hones his powers. In the hotel, Dean asks Sam to not go with Ruby, just because Dean's asked, and Sam punches him and leaves. Sam asks Dean to trust him about Amy, and Dean goes and kills her. Is this really the same? Could Dean trust Sam's judgment when he was hallucinating Lucifer?

Unpopular opinion coming up - Dean asking in itself that Sam not use his powers was unfair in my opinion. Sam didn't want Dean to give up his soul for him. He wasn't given a choice in that matter, and if Sam had been given the choice after that, he would have changed places with Dean in a moment. He tried several times, starting in season 3. And it wasn't like Sam purposely said "I'm going to use my powers to defy Dean." He wasn't in the best of places at that time and was carrying a ton of guilt knowing that Dean was in hell because of him. Sam made the wrong decisions, but he wasn't the only one who made bad decisions in the scenario. And yes, the argument is going to be that Sam asked the same thing of Dean - sort of - but Sam thought that was what Dean would want more than it being some sort of ultimatum, and Dean was being left in a less tumultuous situation than Sam. Nonetheless, both kind of dick moves, in my opinion.

As for the hotel, I'm pretty sure it was Dean telling Sam that he (Sam) was a monster that set Sam off. And Sam asked Dean to come with him and Ruby. Dean refused even though he knew Sam thought that Ruby was necessary for his mission to kill Lilith. There wasn't going to be a resolution to that argument. If Dean had been thinking properly, he would have agreed to go with Sam and Ruby... and then knifed Ruby in the back.

And as for the last point, no Dean couldn't necessarily trust Sam due to the hallucinations... but he did anyhow, enough to back him up on hunts, anyway. So for me, if Dean trusted Sam enough for that, he could have told Sam the truth rather than lying to him... which is what Sam was most angry about.

7 hours ago, MAK said:

You can't even compare Amy and Benny.

I didn't, and as far as I remember I have never tried to compare them. My mentioning Amy had nothing to do with Benny. I'm not that masochistic. There's no way flawed Amy could ever win a comparison against "better brother" Benny. Carver (and Adam Glass) made sure to make Benny as awesome and sympathetic as possible. (Even though I never entirely bought it.) Carver / the writers insisting on bringing up the comparison - even though Amy had already been settled and Sam doesn't usually hold grudges - was yet another jab at Gamble, in my opinion.

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think if you take away the 'but Sam did/said' to justify Dean's actions, and the 'but Dean did/said' to justify Sam's, Sam is going to lose the good/right/unselfish race, pretty much every time. JMO. Most of his defense is 'whataboutism'.

Of course he is... because when Dean does the same kind of things or makes the same kind of mistakes that Sam does, he generally ends up being justified by the narrative. I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince me that the Mark of Cain storyline, for example, wasn't pretty much the Sam demon blood storyline with Dean except that Dean "does it better" (and it somehow still gets blamed all on Sam, so sayeth Chuck (and the writers)). It's just that when Sam does it and Dean disagrees, it's "wrong" and has disastrous, apocalyptic consequences, but when Dean does it, it's because he had no other choice, and voila... it was the right decision after all, and oops Dean is a demon for a while, but that's okay, because it was his brother trying to stop him from being a demon that was the problem anyway. Interesting that Sam using his powers is him becoming a "monster" and was so awful, but Dean using dark powers and becoming a demon is just fine according to the writers.*** And Dean making the deal for Sam to save his life was "bad" (wink-wink nudge-nudge), but what Sam did was worse while Sam saving Dean was bad... as in causing an apocalypse bad (even while Dean at the same time once again saves Sam recklessly... with no consequences). So basically Sam making reckless, arrogant decisions = bad. Dean doing it = no problem or good. With writing like that, then no, Sam is never going to win that race.

But for me, in a way, that is why Sam is (or at least was, before Dabb) a more interesting character. He has flaws and has to grow and overcome those flaws. Dean's flaws are pretty much sympathetic flaws - like he blames himself for everything and he loves his family too much and has self-esteem issues - but Dean never has to change from those flaws, because they are shown as okay. And this is just my opinion - I know a lot of people are going to disagree and mention Dean has flaws... but for me they are surface stuff and not treated as flaws really by the show. Not in terms of consequences - which is the yardstick for me. I'm not a "tell" person. I'm a "show" person. I want to see consequences for actions.

*** And I don't care what the writers say after the fact. For me canon is what is onscreen. And consequences for actions are the proof / message. For me, personally, that's what counts in terms of the narrative. What the writers supposedly meant to say or show is of little consequence if they actually show the opposite. I'm all too familiar with that writer tactic from previous shows I watched. To quote Chuck: "Writers (and showrunners) lie." Because it makes interesting press and fan discussion. And what writer is going to come out and say "Oh, yeah I did write your favorite character as being a huge jerk... because it makes for better drama!!!"? I mean there might be one somewhere - and kudos to him/her for having the guts to say so - but I don't think those writers reside in this fandom.

 

And I don't think that I justify Sam's actions by "but Dean did this, too." (Maybe I'm wrong?) But if I see a "Dean always (or almost always) does A while Sam does B" statement and I disagree - and have reasons why I disagree - then yeah, I'm going to point out those reasons. That doesn't mean I think what Sam does is therefore "right" most of the time. But I don't think Dean doing them is right either, no matter that the writers sometimes try to paint it as such.

And in that vein:

7 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

From an external perspective I'd be willing to put part of the reasons for Gadreel are as simple as the fact that it was Deans 'turn' to screw up, and they needed something real, because of the nuclear backlash they got about Sam not looking for Dean in purgatory. Throwing in the MOC was a bonus screwup doubling as a bone for the Dean fans as some narrative focus.

I,m not sure that the MoC was supposed to be a screw up... and in my opinion, it wasn't. Once again Sam was made to be the screw up. Whether intentional or not (I lean towards intentional), the MoC storyline turned out to be a "see dark powers can be useful... as long as Dean has them instead of Sam" narrative. Even Dean's demon on his shoulder was turned into a frenemy and did good things, because apparently Dean can have demon "friends" that are "good-ish"...because he isn't Sam, I guess. Don't ask me. I didn't get the writers' message here and haven't, generally, since season 8 started.

I also disagree that Gadreel was a Dean "screw-up" per se, because the writers pretty much ignored the actual crappy things that Dean did (imo) and instead turned it into Sam whining about "I was ready to die!" so that Kevin could tell him to "Get over it!" and then Sam would have to say "I lied" and be turned into a hypocrite. If that was supposed to be a Dean screwed up too turn, then in my opinion, the writers failed spectacularly, because they instead took away much of the sympathy for Sam by turning him into a jerk and making Dean look like the sympathetic party who was just trying to save his ungrateful brother... who by the way actually would do the same thing, so what was Sam whining about***... and don't worry, we'll get Sam for that next season. I was not amused nor felt that things had been evened out by that storyline. I actually thought that Dean got justified for his actions and that Sam got dumped on by the writers even more by that storyline - which I didn't think was possible after what they did to him in season 8. At least that's what it looked like to me by the time they were done.

So I guess I don't see things quite the same way as most people do.

*** Oh yeah, the fact that Dean lied to him for weeks, thereby letting an entity parade around in his body without his knowledge and screw up his memories, but never mind that... we'll conveniently forget about that part, because look Gadreel turned out to be a "good" guy after all and a "real friend." Yay! (You might be able to tell that by that point in season 9, I was completely pissed off.)

Edited January 4, 2021 by AwesomO4000
Because despite that they are pronounced similarly, canon and cannon are not the same thing.

[BabySpinach]

Quote

Of course he is... because when Dean does the same kind of things or makes the same kind of mistakes that Sam does, he generally ends up being justified by the narrative. I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince me that the Mark of Cain storyline, for example, wasn't pretty much the Sam demon blood storyline with Dean except that Dean "does it better" (and it somehow still gets blamed all on Sam, so sayeth Chuck (and the writers)). It's just that when Sam does it and Dean disagrees, it's "wrong" and has disastrous, apocalyptic consequences, but when Dean does it, it's because he had no other choice, and voila... it was the right decision after all, and oops Dean is a demon for a while, but that's okay, because it was his brother trying to stop him from being a demon that was the problem anyway. Interesting that Sam using his powers is him becoming a "monster" and was so awful, but Dean using dark powers and becoming a demon is just fine according to the writers.*** And Dean making the deal for Sam to save his life was "bad" (wink-wink nudge-nudge), but what Sam did was worse while Sam saving Dean was bad... as in causing an apocalypse bad (even while Dean at the same time once again saves Sam recklessly... with no consequences). So basically Sam making reckless, arrogant decisions = bad. Dean doing it = no problem or good. With writing like that, then no, Sam is never going to win that race.

Ok, I have to hard disagree here. Dean and Sam in their respective falls to darkness did not do the "same things."

Sam willingly engaged in repeated acts of cannibalism for many months. Dean did not, and if he'd done some other objectively monstrous act as part of the Mark of Cain arc, I guarantee he would have come across much stupider and less sympathetic. Sam made a series of sketchy decisions while Dean just made the one and was stuck dealing with the consequences. Sam could have cleaned himself up at any time if he really wanted to, while Dean was saddled with the Mark no matter what.

A big part of Sam's motivation was in proving himself as a better and stronger hero than Dean, but Dean had no such hang-ups about his brother or any of his loved ones, nor did the question of his strength/worthiness ever come up as a source of insecurity. Furthermore, Dean never complained about being held back by Sam nor ever labored under the delusion that he was some great, misunderstood hero. He also never once thought of the Mark as an indicator of his innate superiority. (These are all canon claims that Sam made in season 4 re: his demon blood). He didn't pursue some lofty agenda behind his brother's back, either.

So yeah, I actually agree that Dean "did it better". Not because the narrative awarded him just for the hell of it, but because his written actions/behavior/motivation actually warranted milder consequences. It's the same concept as a drunk driver hitting someone deserving more fallout than a driver whose tire blew out on a nail and swerved into someone by accident.

(On a shallower level, I was so done with Sam's endless self-absorption and navel-gazing over being a freak. Dean never disappeared up his own ass like that and only focused on dealing with his present situation. Plus, Sam's snotty, self-satisfied expression while using his powers just grated the hell out of me.)

Dean took a magical mark from a benign demon who'd been keeping to himself for centuries, had chosen to retire of his own free will, and had shown the capacity for humanity. Why would that merit world-ending consequences of the same level as Sam powering up via cannibalism, using the abilities that were given to him by his mortal enemy and apocalypse-zealot Azazel, and also trying his damndest to prove himself as the big savior of the world when literally everyone but Ruby was telling him to stop?

Sam isn't some separate entity from the story getting "sullied" by the writers if his character throughout most of the show has consistently been written to do terrible things for inadequate/unsympathetic reasons. Even Kripke's Sam in season 4 was by and large a wretched, petty, arrogant person who called his own brother weak and whiny for being traumatized by Hell (in 4.16 and 4.21, not just 4.14 under the siren's influence). I can absolutely understand hating the direction that the writers constantly took with Sam, and perhaps not giving him enough POV to better rationalize it all, but his actions and behavior as written were fully deserving of that framing, and certainly not equivalent to Dean's.

So yeah, if we tallied up the brothers' respective bad choices/actions and the motivations and circumstances behind them, Dean would absolutely come out on top. We can argue the injustice and unfairness of this apparent imbalance all we want, but I'll never be convinced that Dean and Sam's respective screw-ups were ever on the same moral standing within the written story, or that Dean's comparatively milder consequences were undeserved or proof of a double standard.

[Myrelle]

53 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Ok, I have to hard disagree here. Dean and Sam in their respective falls to darkness did not do the "same things."

Sam willingly engaged in repeated acts of cannibalism for many months. Dean did not, and if he'd done some other objectively monstrous act as part of the Mark of Cain arc, I guarantee he would have come across much stupider and less sympathetic. Sam made a series of sketchy decisions while Dean just made the one and was stuck dealing with the consequences. Sam could have cleaned himself up at any time if he really wanted to, while Dean was saddled with the Mark no matter what.

A big part of Sam's motivation was in proving himself as a better and stronger hero than Dean, but Dean had no such hang-ups about his brother or any of his loved ones, nor did the question of his strength/worthiness ever come up as a source of insecurity. Furthermore, Dean never complained about being held back by Sam nor ever labored under the delusion that he was some great, misunderstood hero. He also never once thought of the Mark as an indicator of his innate superiority. (These are all canon claims that Sam made in season 4 re: his demon blood). He didn't pursue some lofty agenda behind his brother's back, either.

So yeah, I actually agree that Dean "did it better". Not because the narrative awarded him just for the hell of it, but because his written actions/behavior/motivation actually warranted milder consequences. It's the same concept as a drunk driver hitting someone deserving more fallout than a driver whose tire blew out on a nail and swerved into someone by accident.

(On a shallower level, I was so done with Sam's endless self-absorption and navel-gazing over being a freak. Dean never disappeared up his own ass like that and only focused on dealing with his present situation. Plus, Sam's snotty, self-satisfied expression while using his powers just grated the hell out of me.)

Dean took a magical mark from a benign demon who'd been keeping to himself for centuries, had chosen to retire of his own free will, and had shown the capacity for humanity. Why would that merit world-ending consequences of the same level as Sam powering up via cannibalism, using the abilities that were given to him by his mortal enemy and apocalypse-zealot Azazel, and also trying his damndest to prove himself as the big savior of the world when literally everyone but Ruby was telling him to stop?

Sam isn't some separate entity from the story getting "sullied" by the writers if his character throughout most of the show has consistently been written to do terrible things for inadequate/unsympathetic reasons. Even Kripke's Sam in season 4 was by and large a wretched, petty, arrogant person who called his own brother weak and whiny for being traumatized by Hell (in 4.16 and 4.21, not just 4.14 under the siren's influence). I can absolutely understand hating the direction that the writers constantly took with Sam, and perhaps not giving him enough POV to better rationalize it all, but his actions and behavior as written were fully deserving of that framing, and certainly not equivalent to Dean's.

So yeah, if we tallied up the brothers' respective bad choices/actions and the motivations and circumstances behind them, Dean would absolutely come out on top. We can argue the injustice and unfairness of this apparent imbalance all we want, but I'll never be convinced that Dean and Sam's respective screw-ups were ever on the same moral standing within the written story, or that Dean's comparatively milder consequences were undeserved or proof of a double standard.

I would also add that while Sam's falls and fails may have been larger than Dean's, so too were his redemption arcs larger and more focused on by the writers-and usually to the slow but complete detriment of Dean's characterization, by the end of Dabb's reign. 

I tried to watch the first two episodes of S14 yesterday, gave up in disgust halfway through the second episode and was depressed all day thinking about how the leadership role was handed over to Sam on a silver platter(which many in the Dean fandom feared would happen)while the MichaelDean storyline was afforded practically nothing by the asshat showrunner who even said that all of the other characters would be able to "breathe" better now that Dean wasn't in the picture.

No showrunner ever said that about one of JP's storylines. Not ever.

It was driven home to me best through these last seasons under Andre Badd just how much and how often most of the showrunners for this  show had taken from both the Dean character AND the actor who had portrayed him in order to attempt to elevate the Sam character and the actor who portrayed him and never was that more evident to me than in that awful finale.

But I've said it before and I'll just say it again since we're retreading old ground here once again-Jensen does and has always done more with the pittance the writers and showrunners have usually given him than JP has ever done with the all the lavish writing AND treatment as an actor that he's received from them.

And that's why I'm so, SO! relieved that this show is finally over with and why I will always think of Jeremy Carver as the only showrunner on this show who ever fully appreciated the talent of Jensen Ackles.

And if he did that by giving Sam and JP and his fandom a taste of what it felt to be a Dean fan during the late Kripke years and most of the Gamble years, I'm not going to cry in my beer over it.

And then Dabb came along and put the nail in the coffin of this show for good with his blatant and completely OTT reversal back to the status quo and I will forever feel that his showrunning was what finally opened Jensen's eyes to that sad thought.

I Hate! how it ended with the fire of ten thousand suns, but at least it's over with for good and Jensen can finally move on and away from this kind of treatment at the hands of writers and, at times,  even fellow actors.

The disrespect he was shown, from all corners, at the end of this show's run has left such a bad taste in my mouth that I don't think I will ever get over it.

Even Kripke has something to make up for, AFAIC. But at least it seems as if he wants to do just that, so I'm willing to give him the chance after 10 years.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Myrelle

[MAK]

58 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Plus, Sam's snotty, self-satisfied expression while using his powers just grated the hell out of me

This is so funny, but so true! Sam was smug and arrogant and obnoxious as hell!

[gonzosgirrl]

This whole B v J, who the writers screwed over thread was rendered moot by that finale. No matter what they did to Sam over the years, what they did to Dean in the finale is the final, irrevocable insult and it can't be fixed or topped, because it's over. They killed him, and they had him praise Sam and diminish himself with his literal dying breaths. Check mate.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This whole B v J, who the writers screwed over thread was rendered moot by that finale. No matter what they did to Sam over the years, what they did to Dean in the finale is the final, irrevocable insult and it can't be fixed or topped, because it's over. They killed him, and they had him praise Sam and diminish himself with his literal dying breaths. Check mate.

I needed to add some of these: 😭😭😭😭😭

Edited January 6, 2021 by DeeDee79

[tessathereaper]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This whole B v J, who the writers screwed over thread was rendered moot by that finale. No matter what they did to Sam over the years, what they did to Dean in the finale is the final, irrevocable insult and it can't be fixed or topped, because it's over. They killed him, and they had him praise Sam and diminish himself with his literal dying breaths. Check mate.

It's so depressing.  Then it was like he didn't even matter.  We were shown none of their friends reaction with grief, because we never saw Sam call and tell anyone and forget about funeral(covid's no excuse, they could have used some of the crew for the background crowd and then either had one or two recurring friends quarantine or  just green screen them in, the technology has improved immensly and is cheaper now then even when they did it with John in the Season 2 finale 14 years earlier.  Meanwhile Sam gets to live a long life, names his unworthy kid Dean(sorry NO one would be worthy, except possibly one of Dean's own children).

[shoetingstar]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This whole B v J, who the writers screwed over thread was rendered moot by that finale. No matter what they did to Sam over the years, what they did to Dean in the finale is the final, irrevocable insult and it can't be fixed or topped, because it's over. They killed him, and they had him praise Sam and diminish himself with his literal dying breaths. Check mate.

I still SEETHE thinking about the Finale. A mess. ....So many great points made during this discussion.

I wanted include one pattern I've noticed: Dean getting built up as "Special" and "Absolutely the only one Needed" and "The Only One Who Can Do This" (usually by some Being) and then...totally pushed to the side for someone else in the home stretch. It's so demoralizing, frustrating, and ultimately hollow. We have the whole Michael deal in Season 14 - he ended up with Nougat after all. Zachariah pestering Dean to accept Michael back in season 5 only for them to use Adam in the end. And my personal favorite: The Whore of Babylon, also from season 5. I did a whole write-up on that. I'm still intrigued with this story for "99 Problems". Basically, were told only a "Righteous Man" can kill the TWoB but DEAN DID IT. That is an actual great discussion: Does Righteous mean perfect? or someone who willingly sacrifices himself to save others? Was it Dean's destiny and the Angel previously missed it? Much could have come out of that. However, they immediately put Dean in his place and nothing came of it, that I can recall. It's been awhile since I've watched these episodes so I could be forgetting something. 

Can you guys think of other examples? I'm so surprised Castiel declaration to Dean touched me (and I'm not a Destiel), because it really was more of the same.

[tessathereaper]

17 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

I still SEETHE thinking about the Finale. A mess. ....So many great points made during this discussion.

I wanted include one pattern I've noticed: Dean getting built up as "Special" and "Absolutely the only one Needed" and "The Only One Who Can Do This" (usually by some Being) and then...totally pushed to the side for someone else in the home stretch. It's so demoralizing, frustrating, and ultimately hollow. We have the whole Michael deal in Season 14 - he ended up with Nougat after all. Zachariah pestering Dean to accept Michael back in season 5 only for them to use Adam in the end. And my personal favorite: The Whore of Babylon, also from season 5. I did a whole write-up on that. I'm still intrigued with this story for "99 Problems". Basically, were told only a "Righteous Man" can kill the TWoB but DEAN DID IT. That is an actual great discussion: Does Righteous mean perfect? or someone who willingly sacrifices himself to save others? Was it Dean's destiny and the Angel previously missed it? Much could have come out of that. However, they immediately put Dean in his place and nothing came of it, that I can recall. It's been awhile since I've watched these episodes so I could be forgetting something. 

Can you guys think of other examples? I'm so surprised Castiel declaration to Dean touched me (and I'm not a Destiel), because it really was more of the same.

I can't think of any off the top of my head but pretty much any storyline that was Dean's or Dean focused eventually gets pushed off to someone else to finish or do better or something.

And yeah I remember that Whore of Babylon one, wasn't it a "True Servant of God" or something like that.  Cas even explicitly says "oh its not going to be you needs to be a true servant of god(or whatever)" but then Dean IS able to kill her.  And it's just....dropped.  

Dean's the only one, the only one, oh except actually anyone else can do this, we don't need Dean at all, lets cut him out completely or have him holding their jacket while they take his place.

[shoetingstar]

29 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I can't think of any off the top of my head but pretty much any storyline that was Dean's or Dean focused eventually gets pushed off to someone else to finish or do better or something.

And yeah I remember that Whore of Babylon one, wasn't it a "True Servant of God" or something like that.  Cas even explicitly says "oh its not going to be you needs to be a true servant of god(or whatever)" but then Dean IS able to kill her.  And it's just....dropped.  

Dean's the only one, the only one, oh except actually anyone else can do this, we don't need Dean at all, lets cut him out completely or have him holding their jacket while they take his place.

Servant of Heaven, actually! And that's even more thought-provoking. Good point! I guess it was a couple of the defaults for Dean's character, packaged in various ugly ways.

Ah, I found my little tumblr post about it back when I actually used it. lol. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by shoetingstar

[DeeDee79]

20 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

And yeah I remember that Whore of Babylon one, wasn't it a "True Servant of God" or something like that.  Cas even explicitly says "oh its not going to be you needs to be a true servant of god(or whatever)" but then Dean IS able to kill her.  And it's just....dropped.  

 

But not before Sam seemed to get suspicious when Dean was even able to kill her as if being a Servant of Heaven was something underhanded that happened behind his back: 

SAM
Dean, how did you do that?

DEAN

What?

SAM
Kill her.

DEAN
Long run of luck held out, I guess.

SAM
Last I checked, she could only be ganked by a servant of Heaven.

DEAN
Well, what do you want me to tell you? I saw a shot. I went for it.

SAM
Are you gonna do something stupid?

DEAN
Like what?

SAM
Like Michael stupid.

And this makes it even more infuriating when 4 episodes later everyone is suddenly telling Dean why it's the best idea ever to let Sam say yes after berating him mentally and physically from all sides for wanting to do the same. OMG this show.

[MAK]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

covid's no excuse, they could have used some of the crew for the background crowd and then either had one or two recurring friends quarantine or  just green screen them in, the technology has improved immensly and is cheaper now then even when they did it with John in the Season 2 finale 14 years earlier. 

They didn't even need to that. Just have Sam say a line into the phone like, "Thanks for coming Jodi. Can you tell everyone who came, thanks too? I don't think I'm up to talking much yet.  Yeah, bye"  Would that have cost too much? Considering the paucity of dialogue in the episode, was JP paid per word?

Even a screen shot of an email to Jodi saying the same thing would have sufficient.  

COVID as an excuse can only go so far.

[shoetingstar]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

But not before Sam seemed to get suspicious when Dean was even able to kill her as if being a Servant of Heaven was something underhanded that happened behind his back: 

SAM
Dean, how did you do that?

DEAN

What?

SAM
Kill her.

DEAN
Long run of luck held out, I guess.

SAM
Last I checked, she could only be ganked by a servant of Heaven.

DEAN
Well, what do you want me to tell you? I saw a shot. I went for it.

SAM
Are you gonna do something stupid?

DEAN
Like what?

SAM
Like Michael stupid.

And this makes it even more infuriating when 4 episodes later everyone is suddenly telling Dean why it's the best idea ever to let Sam say yes after berating him mentally and physically from all sides for wanting to do the same. OMG this show.

Oh Sammy. God love him (heh), but the hypercritical part of Sam's nature was continually swept under the rung. 

Now, we do find out in this episode that he did Agree to be Michael's vessel, with some conditions., of course. He hadn't done anything yet though. This was my conclusion why he was able to kill her:

• The angels and supernatural beings like TWoB don’t understand human kindness, and this is their downfall. The moment “she” confirmed that Evil could win, and that Dean could be just watching it from the sidelines, the struggle against Dean was lost.  Even though God is AWOL, there are laws of the universe that still exist. Dean’s true mojo was when his actual brand Faith was triggered – his noble (not pathetic), care for others (not self-hate), and his true faith that People Are Worth Saving and that Dean Winchester is the one to do it. 

Sadly, the writers leaned into Dean being a self-hater instead of Dean being selfless. 

[MAK]

32 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

Servant of Heaven, actually! And that's even more thought-provoking. Good point! I guess it was a couple of the defaults for Dean's character, packaged in various ugly ways.

Ah, I found my little tumblr post about it back when I actually used it. lol. 

Just read your post, nice take.

IMO, the "Servant of Heaven" thing referred to Dean's almost total selflessness. Before the weird God is the villain thing, God had ordered the angels to revere humans before all else, even before Him. And no matter what Dean has done, lying, stealing, whoring, demon deal, etc. Dean has put other humans above all else. He is truly following God's will. Everyone else has more selfish motives. Dean agreeing to be Michael's vessel would have made him the servant of the angels, not Heaven. Dean does things because they are right, hence, he is the Righteous Man, and the true "Servant of Heaven ."

[shoetingstar]

4 minutes ago, MAK said:

Just read your post, nice take.

IMO, the "Servant of Heaven" thing referred to Dean's almost total selflessness. Before the weird God is the villain thing, God had ordered the angels to revere humans before all else, even before Him. And no matter what Dean has done, lying, stealing, whoring, demon deal, etc. Dean has put other humans above all else. He is truly following God's will. Everyone else has more selfish motives. Dean agreeing to be Michael's vessel would have made him the servant of the angels, not Heaven. Dean does things because they are right, hence, he is the Righteous Man, and the true "Servant of Heaven ."

Thank you @MAK!

Exactly, well said. It breaks my heart that this selfless Man was continually brought low, because they needed him to grovel. And he had the nerve to have the very human feeling of anger about all he's gone through. This is making me re-think Dean's Self-hate, was it monologued (it was always some baddie telling him about it) in Season 1 or added later? Not that I needed an excuse to re-watch Season 1, again. heh.

[AwesomO4000]

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Dean took a magical mark from a benign demon who'd been keeping to himself for centuries, had chosen to retire of his own free will, and had shown the capacity for humanity. Why would that merit world-ending consequences of the same level as Sam powering up via cannibalism, using the abilities that were given to him by his mortal enemy and apocalypse-zealot Azazel, and also trying his damndest to prove himself as the big savior of the world when literally everyone but Ruby was telling him to stop?

A big part of Sam's motivation was in proving himself as a better and stronger hero than Dean, but Dean had no such hang-ups about his brother or any of his loved ones, nor did the question of his strength/worthiness ever come up as a source of insecurity. Furthermore, Dean never complained about being held back by Sam nor ever labored under the delusion that he was some great, misunderstood hero. He also never once thought of the Mark as an indicator of his innate superiority. (These are all canon claims that Sam made in season 4 re: his demon blood). He didn't pursue some lofty agenda behind his brother's back, either.

Cain was not a "benign demon." If Crowley is freaked out by another demon, that generally means he is bad news. Sure Cain had taken a break, but there was no doubt that the mark was evil, dangerous, and came with serious consequences. Dean knew full well that there would be dangerous consequences. He either didn't care or was arrogant enough to think that he could handle it. And if Ruby was a bad influence - who also was pretending to be helpful and actually helping Sam to save people as part of her deception - Crowley surely wasn't a fluffy puppy. I would say that at that point, he was just as much an enemy - one who had recently killed a bunch of innocent people, including Sarah and had been on his way to killing Jody.

And as for Sam using powers from Azazel - ones he had no choice in being given - Dean was using powers that he knew full well came from Lucifer... their really mortal enemy. And Dean chose to take those powers that came from Lucifer. So why would that merit world-ending or at the very least some very bad consequences? Because they were powers from Lucifer. That's kind of Lucifer's raison d'etre. So I truly don't see why Sam is so horrible for using powers from a demon, but Dean is excused for willingly taking powers that he knew came from Lucifer himself. You might not see those two things as similar, but I do. And interestingly enough, blood was involved with Dean's powers, too. Dean didn't drink blood, but the First Blade required that blood be shed on its behalf. Things weren't the same, but there were some interesting parallels.

I also disagree that Sam's main motivation was to prove himself as big savior of the world. And Dean may not have had hang ups in that regard, but under the mark's influence, he also declared himself the only one who could be the savior of the situation and told Sam he had to fall in line or leave. So I think there was a sense of superiority there. And regular Dean didn't say Sam held him back, but demon Dean did. Again, it wasn't the same, but there were parallels.

I also don't interpret your "canon claims" exactly the same way you do.

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

(On a shallower level, I was so done with Sam's endless self-absorption and navel-gazing over being a freak. Dean never disappeared up his own ass like that and only focused on dealing with his present situation.)

At least Sam got over this for the most part. I was pretty much annoyed by Dean's endless self-esteem issues. Even when angels tell him he's awesome, and demons fear him, he continues to think he's crap. He survives a year in purgatory being an awesome badass... and still has no self-esteem and doesn't stand up to his brother. I may have disliked Sam in season 8, but Dean's inability to stand up for himself or think he deserved anything wasn't much better.

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And that's why I'm so, SO! relieved that this show is finally over with and why I will always think of Jeremy Carver as the only showrunner on this show who ever fully appreciated the talent of Jensen Ackles.

And if he did that by giving Sam and JP and his fandom a taste of what it felt to be a Dean fan during the late Kripke years and most of the Gamble years, I'm not going to cry in my beer over it.

I don't think it's the same myself. It's not like Gamble didn't give Dean any plot arcs or chances to shine. And Dean was still a likable character and got to help save the world. Carver made me almost hate Sam... and Sam was my favorite. And he made no attempt to make up for trashing Sam's character either. He just made it worse. I'd call that a little more than a "taste." It's one thing to sideline a character and another to trash him by making him act ridiculously with no explanation. For me those things aren't equivalent. I loved season 11 for example even though Sam's part in the overall arc was minimal, because Sam acted like Sam. Of course season 12 ruined that but hey, I got season 11 anyway.

And in my opinion, Carver didn't do too many favors for Dean's character either (at least not in season 8, anyway). He was too busy building up his own original characters (Amelia, Benny, Gadreel) any chance he got. Again just my opinion there.

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But I've said it before and I'll just say it again since we're retreading old ground here once again-Jensen does and has always done more with the pittance the writers and showrunners have usually given him than JP has ever done with the all the lavish writing AND treatment as an actor that he's received from them.

And this is where I'll bow out as I'm not interested in yet another discussion of this. I don't think anyone could do much with some of the crap storyilines they gave Sam - like the Amelia storyline - and I happen to enjoy Jared's portrayal of Sam most of the time. And Dean often gets the bigger emotional scenes with close ups to highlight his performances, so I don't agree that the writers only write him "pittance."

Neither got much of anything good post season 11, so...

I think I'll go to lurking for now. Carry on.

[MAK]

43 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Even when angels tell him he's awesome, and demons fear him, he continues to think he's crap. He survives a year in purgatory being an awesome badass... and still has no self-esteem and doesn't stand up to his brother.

But this is exactly Dean's problem. Like @BabySpinach said, Dean's strength and fighting/killing ability was never a source of insecurity for Dean. He knew he was a BAMF,  that demons and other monsters feared. But Dean wanted to be known for more than just being a killer. He has always seen himself has John's blunt instrument and Sam's guard dog. His insecurity came from not being seen as anything beyond that, and never having the chance to explore for himself what he could be beyond that.

He doesn't stand up to Sam because he doesn't think he is as worthy a human being as Sam, not because he thinks he is a weak fighter.

[BabySpinach]

Quote

Cain was not a "benign demon." If Crowley is freaked out by another demon, that generally means he is bad news. Sure Cain had taken a break, but there was no doubt that the mark was evil, dangerous, and came with serious consequences. Dean knew full well that there would be dangerous consequences. He either didn't care or was arrogant enough to think that he could handle it. And if Ruby was a bad influence - who also was pretending to be helpful and actually helping Sam to save people as part of her deception - Crowley surely wasn't a fluffy puppy. I would say that at that point, he was just as much an enemy - one who had recently killed a bunch of innocent people, including Sarah and had been on his way to killing Jody.

Well Crowley wasn't actively feeding Dean's addiction or sleeping with him to control him. Dean never trusted Crowley like Sam trusted Ruby, and openly used him for his own gain and tossed him to the wayside the rest of the time. Again, this is why Dean "did it better" than Sam and why he came off as more sympathetic. 

Sure, Dean taking the Mark was reckless. But it was sure less braindead that sucking up blood because a demon told you to, and keeping up that habit for months. The act of drinking blood from a human body is monstrous, as the show had clearly established by that point, and it made Sam look like a dumbass with no instincts, despite him being a hunter for over half his life. Again, my argument is that Dean came off better because his choices and the context behind them were more reasonable/sympathetic, not that Dean is as pure as the driven snow. 

Quote

I also disagree that Sam's main motivation was to prove himself as big savior of the world. And Dean may not have had hang ups in that regard, but under the mark's influence, he also declared himself the only one who could be the savior of the situation and told Sam he had to fall in line or leave. So I think there was a sense of superiority there. And regular Dean didn't say Sam held him back, but demon Dean did. Again, it wasn't the same, but there were parallels.

Dean declared that he was the boss one time, then for the rest of season 10 he never claimed or acted that way again. Demon!Dean is on the same level as Soulless!Sam, so I don't count what he said as a demon.

On the other hand, Sam's ego issues formed the entire backbone of his demon blood arc. His justifications to himself and to others about his "tainted" blood and how he was saving people were far from his only motivation, or even the majority of it:

4.14

"Dean, you're so weak and whiny, I'm a better and stronger hunter than you are."

4.16

"Dean can't get what he needs from Alistair because he's just not strong enough after Hell." (As if raw strength and power were the be-all-end-all to success.)

4.21

Mary, his "comforting" vision: "Dean is too weak to comprehend what you're doing; you're right and he's wrong. :')"

Ruby, fluffing Sam up after having had sex with him: "You're a hero, you're going to save the world, I'm so sorry that Dean just doesn't understand. :((("

Sam, mockingly to Dean: "Right, the angels think it's you."

Plenty of proof here that Sam's hubris and desire to be powerful and stronger than his brother fueled much of his actions and decisions, given the brand of praise and encouragement that Sam was clearly receptive to. Besides, the climax of a story is usually when the actual truths come out. And Sam's snotty, self-satisfied expression when he used his mojo was visual evidence of him clearly enjoying power for its own sake.

Quote

At least Sam got over this for the most part. I was pretty much annoyed by Dean's endless self-esteem issues. Even when angels tell him he's awesome, and demons fear him, he continues to think he's crap. He survives a year in purgatory being an awesome badass... and still has no self-esteem and doesn't stand up to his brother. I may have disliked Sam in season 8, but Dean's inability to stand up for himself or think he deserved anything wasn't much better.

Sam has spent probably 5x more words and energy bemoaning his status as a "freak" than Dean has ever given to his self-esteem issues. And getting annoyed by that is like getting annoyed with someone who compulsively apologizes all the time. That behavior is usually rooted in something harmful in their psyche, possibly in an abusive past, and just telling someone to get over it is not going to work. It's very realistic that Dean wouldn't move past his self worth issues no matter how many external sources told him otherwise; true healing from this would start from within, which he's almost never had the opportunity to do given all the world-threatening messes he's had to clean up and the unwarranted guilt that kept piling on.

Edited January 6, 2021 by BabySpinach

[gonzosgirrl]

 

12 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

Can you guys think of other examples?

Show: Only an angel can kill another angel. 

Dean: kills Zachariah. 

Show: Nevermind.

They even made Dean unworthy to take the MOC again, with some nonsense excuse, just so Sam could also check that box. 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

 

4.21

Mary, his "comforting" vision: "Dean is too weak to comprehend what you're doing; you're right and he's wrong. :')

Isn't it interesting how Sam's visions (his own psyche) generally told him how good, strong, right he was? In 9x01 he had Death himself declare what an honor it would be to personally reap Sam Winchester. (IMO Dean, Bobby and Death were all in his comatose head until Gadreel).

Meanwhile, Dean gets 'you're gonna die, and this (a demon) is what you're gonna become'. 

ETA: I know Sam also had some ugly visions, but I don't recall a single time that Dean had a self-aggrandizing vision, or even a vaguely positive one.

Edited January 6, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[BabySpinach]

On a related note, I'm struck by how we've pretty much never had a scene of Sam feeling remorse/guilt/shame alone ie. without any potentially performative element to it. We've had plenty for Dean with his drinking and throwing furniture and punching mirrors etc. when he's on his own and therefore absolutely genuine in his feelings. But Sam? The only time we've seen him express guilt is verbally, either with other people or with his own mental projections (and even with the latter he's often arguing and trying to justify himself). And when Dean feels guilty, he's visibly wrecked. When Sam has done something terrible and is supposed to feel guilty, he pretty much carries on as normal and only briefly flashes a puppy-dog look (or a pissy one) when people bring up what he did. Eventually, it all starts to feel a bit phony, at least to me, when it's mostly tell and very little show. 

It wouldn't have solved everything, but what a difference it would have made if, for instance, we saw Sam after drinking demon blood for the first time gagging into the sink, then staring at his reflection with disgust. Or in the episode after he choked Dean nearly to death, looking at his hands and painfully flashing back to that moment. Or, after he freed Lucifer, suddenly collapsing in a locked bathroom under the sudden weight of everything he's done, then re-emerging as if nothing had happened. Small, raw scenes like that would've been so effective and perhaps even softened him to a tolerable level, but Kripke had his Sam goggles on and probably took for granted that the audience would sympathize with his self-insert without needing to put in any of that extra work. Then the rest of the writers/showrunners followed suit.

Edited January 6, 2021 by BabySpinach

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Isn't it interesting how Sam's visions (his own psyche) generally told him how good, strong, right he was? In 9x01 he had Death himself declare what an honor it would be to personally reap Sam Winchester. (IMO Dean, Bobby and Death were all in his comatose head until Gadreel).

Quoting myself here to add, even if you believe it was actual Death there, not just Sam's imagination, I'm not sure that makes it better. In that case the show is telling us Death feels 'honored' to reap the great Sam Winchester, when his reaction to Dean (up to that point) was basically 'you again?'.

[BabySpinach]

23 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Quoting myself here to add, even if you believe it was actual Death there, not just Sam's imagination, I'm not sure that makes it better. In that case the show is telling us Death feels 'honored' to reap the great Sam Winchester, when his reaction to Dean (up to that point) was basically 'you again?'.

Having Death be Sam's projection is much better for both characters. The real Death barely spared Sam a glance and they shared zero significant lines, but we're supposed to buy that he was actually fawning over Sam the whole time he was doing favors, delegating tasks, and having interesting conversations with his brother, for whom he nursed an obvious underlying--if grumpy--fondness throughout? It's so ridiculous it's laughable, and makes Sam look like a Super Sue. Only the most starry-eyed sycophantic fangirls would take that seriously and run with it. The rest of us would scoff and roll our eyes for a multitude of good reasons.

Edited January 7, 2021 by BabySpinach

[MAK]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO Dean, Bobby and Death were all in his comatose head until Gadreel)

Never really thought about this, but this makes so much more sense.  Death hardly ever even looked at Sam.

Although, as a devil's advocate, it could be the real Death wanting to collect Sam's soul. He might have wanted to be personally involved since he had done a favor and gotten Sam's soul out of the cage for Dean. Maybe he wanted to put him back in the cage?

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, MAK said:

Never really thought about this, but this makes so much more sense.  Death hardly ever even looked at Sam.

Although, as a devil's advocate, it could be the real Death wanting to collect Sam's soul. He might have wanted to be personally involved since he had done a favor and gotten Sam's soul out of the cage for Dean. Maybe he wanted to put him back in the cage?

It could be real Death (but I don't believe it was), but him having any kind of animosity toward Sam (in this scene)? I don't see any way to interpret it that way even as a devil's advocate. He was practically fanboy-ing him.

[MAK]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It could be real Death (but I don't believe it was), but him having any kind of animosity toward Sam (in this scene)? I don't see any way to interpret it that way even as a devil's advocate. He was practically fanboy-ing him.

Sorry, I meant I was being the "devil's advocate," arguing for the other side that Death is real, not that Death was the actually Lucifer's advocate.

Like I said, I never considered that Death wasn't the real thing in that scene, but I think it makes more sense that he was a construct of Sam's mind.

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, MAK said:

Sorry, I meant I was being the "devil's advocate," arguing for the other side that Death is real, not that Death was the actually Lucifer's advocate.

Like I said, I never considered that Death wasn't the real thing in that scene, but I think it makes more sense that he was a construct of Sam's mind.

LOL, I understand the term. I said even trying to see it as Devil's advocate, there's no way (IMO) that Death wanted to put Sam back in the cage or any other reason for him to be personally involved than admiration - he literally said he was there for the honor of reaping Sam.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/6/2021 at 9:04 AM, BabySpinach said:

On a related note, I'm struck by how we've pretty much never had a scene of Sam feeling remorse/guilt/shame alone ie. without any potentially performative element to it. We've had plenty for Dean with his drinking and throwing furniture and punching mirrors etc. when he's on his own and therefore absolutely genuine in his feelings. But Sam? The only time we've seen him express guilt is verbally, either with other people or with his own mental projections (and even with the latter he's often arguing and trying to justify himself). And when Dean feels guilty, he's visibly wrecked. When Sam has done something terrible and is supposed to feel guilty, he pretty much carries on as normal and only briefly flashes a puppy-dog look (or a pissy one) when people bring up what he did. Eventually, it all starts to feel a bit phony, at least to me, when it's mostly tell and very little show. 

It wouldn't have solved everything, but what a difference it would have made if, for instance, we saw Sam after drinking demon blood for the first time gagging into the sink, then staring at his reflection with disgust. Or in the episode after he choked Dean nearly to death, looking at his hands and painfully flashing back to that moment. Or, after he freed Lucifer, suddenly collapsing in a locked bathroom under the sudden weight of everything he's done, then re-emerging as if nothing had happened. Small, raw scenes like that would've been so effective and perhaps even softened him to a tolerable level, but Kripke had his Sam goggles on and probably took for granted that the audience would sympathize with his self-insert without needing to put in any of that extra work. Then the rest of the writers/showrunners followed suit.

Sam does apologize to Dean in the s 11 episode... Love Hurts I think.

I think Kripke AND gamble's goggles are why Carver focused his story arcs the way he did. He deliberately had Sam make similar mistakes as fully human and then admit his mistakes and atone for them still fully human.

This left Dean with the supernatural arcs which was fun even if the character growth was largely about Sam admitting he made a mistake, treated Dean badly, caused an Apocalypse. We saw Sam feel guilty! We saw Sam apologize! We saw that Sam was shi#$ to his imaginary friend and he finally apologized to Sully too!

IMO Carver was smashing the previous showrunners' Sam goggles.

Then Dabb came along  and was terrible starting with Red Meat.

 

[trudysmom]

On 11/26/2020 at 12:43 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't recall - did the series end without Sam ever having said the words 'I love you' to his brother? Ironic that Dean gets painted as the emotionally stunted one.

But if they had, then they wouldn't be able to praise Padalecki's superb acting in that awful barn scene. (which I watched once and never will again) His tears, his pain, his 'nuance' (barf) all so heart-wrenching.  To get him ready for...other things.  Like life after Dean, life after SPN, a ten-gallon hat.  I knew that Dabb was going to shit all over Dean and the finale, I was prepared for that.  I was not prepared for how I feel about everyone else since then, Jared and Misha especially.  

[ahrtee]

5 hours ago, trudysmom said:

  On 11/26/2020 at 11:43 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't recall - did the series end without Sam ever having said the words 'I love you' to his brother? Ironic that Dean gets painted as the emotionally stunted one.

Well, there was the scene with StonedSam in Sam, Interrupted:

SAM: It's okay. Hey, hey. Look at me.

DEAN looks at SAM.

SAM: It's okay...because you're my brother...and I still love ya.

DEAN nods. SAM pokes at DEAN'S nose.

SAM: Boop!

[FlickChick]

All I can say is that I'm so very, very glad that Jensen is away from this show and the showrunner who obviously hated both the character and the actor. I personally was very tired of all the praise on the other actors, but "Dean had to be away for a couple of episodes, so that the other characters could breathe". Just think about how Jensen must have felt about that public statement from the person in charge. I suspect that was the beginning of the end for him and why he finished his contract and was gone. I personally wished he hadn't finished his contract and that he only gave Dabb two episodes to wrap things up. Then we would have been spared this horrible finale season and continued praises for the "other actor".

[DeeDee79]

41 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I personally wished he hadn't finished his contract and that he only gave Dabb two episodes to wrap things up.

I agree but I also think that Dabb would have given Dean the John Winchester treatment. Didn't JDM complain about how his character was trashed after he left the show? I think that without Jensen around to portray Dean and soften the writing against his character it would have been open season for various characters to "remember" all of Dean's faults and Sam would have "reluctantly" agreed with their recollections. 

[Pondlass1]

He didn’t care about Supernatural. He wanted his spin off to be picked up. When that didn’t happen he got in a snit and just didn’t give a fuck. What kind of show runner would green light that high wire marionette fight?Jensen was pissed enough to complain ... Jensen — a true professional and class act criticized this scene out loud on a convention stage at least twice.

He wasn’t in any of the zoom calls, was he even in that last shot on the bridge? 

[gonzosgirrl]

18 hours ago, FlickChick said:

All I can say is that I'm so very, very glad that Jensen is away from this show and the showrunner who obviously hated both the character and the actor. I personally was very tired of all the praise on the other actors, but "Dean had to be away for a couple of episodes, so that the other characters could breathe". Just think about how Jensen must have felt about that public statement from the person in charge. I suspect that was the beginning of the end for him and why he finished his contract and was gone. I personally wished he hadn't finished his contract and that he only gave Dabb two episodes to wrap things up. Then we would have been spared this horrible finale season and continued praises for the "other actor".

You know what though? At the end of the day, no matter what they do, Dabb will still have to be Dabb, and the other actor(s), the other actor(s). Jensen will be Jensen, and for that, he wins.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You know what though? At the end of the day, no matter what they do, Dabb will still have to be Dabb, and the other actor(s), the other actor(s). Jensen will be Jensen, and for that, he wins.

Yes.  And while I do believe in karma, I'd still be happier if there were more immediate repercussions.  I guess I'm not enlightened enough. 😊

[gonzosgirrl]

50 minutes ago, SueB said:

Also, he can’t simultaneously be guilty of lobbying for super Sam scripts (a complaint of the past by some, not me) AND also just perform what’s on the page.  

Of course he can. The writers give him Super Sam (Red Meat, Stranger in a Strange Land (when he yells demons back to Hell), all the Chief nonsense, etc. etc. etc.) and he acts them exactly as written. The fact that he never once rolled his eyes while being called 'Chief' tells me he acts what's on the page.

[MishMIsh]

On 1/18/2021 at 1:21 AM, FlickChick said:

"Dean had to be away for a couple of episodes, so that the other characters could breathe".

Hi, I'm new here and really enjoyed going over reading your thoughts 🙂

 

I've seen the above quote a few times here, do anyone have a link to this interview? I'd like to read it 😚 Thanks!

[starfishka]

2 hours ago, MishMIsh said:

I've seen the above quote a few times here, do anyone have a link to this interview? I'd like to read it 😚 Thanks!

link

Quote

The twist has also benefited the growing ensemble’s beloved fan faves. “It gives some other characters a bit of breathing room in terms of Castiel and Jack, and Mary and Bobby…,” Dabb notes. 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by starfishka

[tessathereaper]

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Of course he can. The writers give him Super Sam (Red Meat, Stranger in a Strange Land (when he yells demons back to Hell), all the Chief nonsense, etc. etc. etc.) and he acts them exactly as written. The fact that he never once rolled his eyes while being called 'Chief' tells me he acts what's on the page.

LOL right?  "You betcha, Chief!"(don't know if that was a line but I'm sure someone affirmated something with "Chief" at some point).  And it really doesn't reflect well on the writers that were like "How do we convey Sam is a big stwong LEADER, yes he is, oh yes he is!"   Writers Room: "..........uhm......er.....eh......"We have people call him...Chief?" "My GOD! What an excellent ground breaking idea!"

5 hours ago, starfishka said:

The twist has also benefited the growing ensemble’s beloved fan faves. “It gives some other characters a bit of breathing room in terms of Castiel and Jack, and Mary and Bobby…,” Dabb notes. 

Yeah apparently Dean(Jensen) was keeping ALL those characters from breathing.  LOL Ah the power of the ackting to apparently overshadow like half a dozen other characters so much Jensen needed to be shoved off the screen and mostly out of his own storyline so they could "breath".  The mind just boggles.

[Pondlass1]

Wow.. I just went down a YouTube rabbit hole. There’s  a slew of videos criticizing Dabb and Singer and pointing out why they’re the reason for the downfall of Supernatural.  Everything we’ve said here. Dropped storylines, all that stupid retconning, reused plot lines, fan service writing, etc.  

We are not alone.

 

 

[DeeDee79]

28 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Wow.. I just went down a YouTube rabbit hole. There’s  a slew of videos criticizing Dabb and Singer and pointing out why they’re the reason for the downfall of Supernatural.  Everything we’ve said here. Dropped storylines, all that stupid retconning, reused plot lines, fan service writing, etc.  

We are not alone.

 

 

Sounds interesting! Can you provide a link for one of them?

[Pondlass1]

 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 

Thank you!

[gonzosgirrl]

I have no idea where this belongs, but to be safe..   Can somebody tell me if this was a scripted line? It seems like something Bobby might say, but I don't recall it. I'm unclear why anyone would want this (but clearly people do as it's a re-issue). I guess if you're anti-Winchesters? Maybe I'm just missing the joke?

 

[Casseiopeia]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I have no idea where this belongs, but to be safe..   Can somebody tell me if this was a scripted line? It seems like something Bobby might say, but I don't recall it. I'm unclear why anyone would want this (but clearly people do as it's a re-issue). I guess if you're anti-Winchesters? Maybe I'm just missing the joke?

 

The closest I could find is from the Berens/Glynn script Galaxy Brain S15E12 terrible episode going to save Kaia...blech!

That's not dumb, that's Winchester dumb.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

The closest I could find is from the Berens/Glynn script Galaxy Brain S15E12 terrible episode going to save Kaia...blech!

That's not dumb, that's Winchester dumb.

 

Figured if it was, it had to be from Dabb era and from someone(s) to whom the Winchesters were secondary to their own pet characters. That it's popular enough to warrant re-issuing speaks to the nature of the fandom that remained. Oh well.

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Figured if it was, it had to be from Dabb era and from someone(s) to whom the Winchesters were secondary to their own pet characters. That it's popular enough to warrant re-issuing speaks to the nature of the fandom that remained. Oh well.

Just another reason for the plug being pulled.

I honestly feel as if Dabb thought that it would never actually happen.

Dumb Ass.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Myrelle