“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ILoveReading]

19 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Like I said, since Dean is in it with the BMOL, he will at least get equal if not all of the blame once things turn pear-shaped. And Dean certainly hasn`t gotten any good-at-anything moments recently.

It wouldn't surprise me if they swung all the blame onto Dean, using Sam's we're done line, and showing Dean (IIRC) being the one to call Ketch.  I can easily seen the dialogue saying Sam wanted to leave and Dean insist they stay even though none of Sam's actions suggest he was ever remotely done with them.

Dean these last 3 episodes looks very much like someone going through the motions.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've seen a couple of the SPN writers tweeting about the looming possible WGA strike and it is ALL I can do to push away from the keyboard each time I do.

I'm curious about this. We were discussing this in the Writers thread. I'd love to know what other info you have on that front because it's been on my mind.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm curious about this. We were discussing this in the Writers thread. I'd love to know what other info you have on that front because it's been on my mind.

No info, really, beyond a few tweets asking for support for the WGA. There was a link to a Q&A about possible ramifications for TV/Movies if it comes to strike. I'll see if I can find it again.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No info, really, beyond a few tweets asking for support for the WGA. There was a link to a Q&A about possible ramifications for TV/Movies if it comes to strike. I'll see if I can find it again.

Cool, Thanks! I've been wondering if the writers are writing for a potential end if there is a  Writer's Strike and it goes on so long that it affects the show staying on the air after a strike ends.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Cool, Thanks! I've been wondering if the writers are writing for a potential end if there is a  Writer's Strike and it goes on so long that it affects the show staying on the air after a strike ends.

Not as far as SPN goes, since they are already filming the finale. I believe their S12 shooting schedule wraps next week (according to tweets).

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Not as far as SPN goes, since they are already filming the finale. I believe their S12 shooting schedule wraps next week (according to tweets).

I would think it could affect the shows coming back in the fall though, if it goes on longer than the summer. Or no?

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I would think it could affect the shows coming back in the fall though, if it goes on longer than the summer. Or no?

Oh, yes then, sure it could (would).  I thought you were asking if they were writing the end of S12 as potential end of series, should any strike go on long enough. But since tSPN has already been renewed for S13, I would guess it doesn't have the same dangerous potential it has for other shows that haven't yet been renewed.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I would think it could affect the shows coming back in the fall though, if it goes on longer than the summer. Or no?

Here is that article.http://www.vox.com/culture/2017/4/19/15265700/wga-strike-writers-guild-hollywood

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh, yes then, sure it could (would).  I thought you were asking if they were writing the end of S12 as potential end of series, should any strike go on long enough. But since tSPN has already been renewed for S13, I would guess it doesn't have the same dangerous potential it has for other shows that haven't yet been renewed.

I guess I was thinking more that they could write a kind of end if the strike would prevent even a renewed show from returning in a timely fashion.

[Wayward Son]

I would say if the strike goes ahead that the season would be most likely shortened at the very least! The way I understand it is that the writers begin writing for the new season in May so that filming can then proceed in July. Since the writing strike is due to start early May (if it goes ahead) this means there will be a delay in the start of writing! 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I was thinking more that they could write a kind of end if the strike would prevent even a renewed show from returning in a timely fashion.

I see - you're wondering if maybe the script they did write and are now filming was written with that in mind? If so, my guess is still no, since Dabb alluded to where the story is going next season already. Of course they talk out their butts most of the time, so who knows, really?! LOL

[auntvi]

From the Vox article:

Quote

Some TV series and films with completed scripts will likely continue shooting, but writers will stop work on scripts and are supposed to step away from production duties. (This could end up being a contentious point; during the 2007 strike, some showrunners continued with production duties.)

SPN will just make it under the wire with shooting. But will editing and other post-production be affected? Especially if other unions refuse to cross the picket lines?

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I see - you're wondering if maybe the script they did write and are now filming was written with that in mind? If so, my guess is still no, since Dabb alluded to where the story is going next season already. Of course they talk out their butts most of the time, so who knows, really?! LOL

Yes , that's what I was getting at. 

[Aeryn13]

I can`t see any show doing a Season Finale right now with the eventually of a strike in mind. IMO they all plan to cross that bridge if they come to it. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I can`t see any show doing a Season Finale right now with the eventually of a strike in mind. IMO they all plan to cross that bridge if they come to it. 

I was thinking about 2008.  They ended up writing Dean into Hell because the strike only gave them 16 episodes.  And I suppose that could have been a series end if they decided to close shop on SPN back then. I guess that's why I'm wondering about an ambiguous season finale that could be a series finale if the situation demanded it to be.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking about 2008.  They ended up writing Dean into Hell because the strike only gave them 16 episodes.  And I suppose that could have been a series end if they decided to close shop on SPN back then. I guess that's why I'm wondering about an ambiguous season finale that could be a series finale if the situation demanded it to be.

I believe a key difference this time is the time in writing that would be affected. The last strike took place between November and February which meant the writing for the middle to the end of the season was affected. This meant when the strike ended Supernatural had four or five episodes to finish the season compared to the eleven or twelve they envisioned. That's why plot lines planned for a 23 episode season had to be dropped so they could wrap things up in 16 episodes. 

This time however the strike is due to begin at the start of May, which is when most shows are only beginning their season. This means writing can't begin until after the strike is finished. Therefore, if the strikes occurs the writing team should be going into the season knowing how many episodes the (presumably) shortened season will consist of and they can plot the overall season accordingly from the very beginning. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

I think back then the strike was already a reality because it happened mid-Season so lots of shows scrambled to do something with it. This time, they can finish out their Seasons as planned. The effect of another strike would only set in for the new Fall Season. And SPN has been notorious for not really planning things out in advance. IMO a shortened Season would just mean scraping off a few fillers.

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

This time however the strike is due to begin at the start of May, which is when most shows are only beginning their season. This means writing can't begin until after the strike is finished. Therefore, if the strikes occurs the writing team should be going into the season knowing how many episodes the (presumably) shortened season will consist of and they can plot the overall season accordingly. 

I get that.  I guess to me, given how these kinds of negotiations start happening long before a strike becomes a factor, that the showrunners/writers might have been planning a plan B in case of, you know?

[SueB]

Specifically, for SPN, all the filming is complete by Apr 29 so there is no impact on filming.  The only issue is editing.  There's the editor's take (not affected), the Director's take (not affected), and finally the showrunner's take (affected).  In this case, if Dabb - who is undoubtedly in the WGA and is writing the finale - cannot participate in the editing of the finale, then it's up to Singer. Singer is probably NOT in the WGA.  With that in mind, Singer is also the director.  Supernatural lost it's best (IMO) editor last year (Nicole Baer - who was pinched by Kripke).  So, it MAY affect the finale.  Bob CAN raise his game,, IMO, when he really wants to.  But his view is not the same as Dabb's view.  Still, we will functionally get the main story out and go from Point A to Point B to Cliffhanger in the space of 43 mins-ish.  There just may be some choices that do not get a third set of eyes on that really could have USED that third set of eyes.  

Not sure about EP 22.  That may be okay.  They can probably get Dabb's perspective/notes on it before he goes on strike.

Or Dabb can say showrunner trumps WGA.  Not likely though. I suspect he'll be loyal to the WGA.

 

As for new season... a couple of hints from twitter suggest this is a VERY busy time for the writers right now.  In reality, they should be pretty much on hiatus.  However, since they have already filmed a bit for S13, I wouldn't be surprised if Dabb put a few stories into work for S13 during the past month.  This way, rather than go on vacation in April to mid-May, they may have kept them working.  It's a bit of a bummer because they don't have the final version of the finale to play off of... but they may be getting scripts to sufficient level that they will requires final "adjustment" vice "start from scratch".

It would also benefit the writers, because it would allow them to put some S13 cash in their piggy bank now to hedge against a strike in May.  They should come back to work towards the end of May.  This would cover them (I suspect).

Again, this "already writing S13" is speculation but we've gotten a couple of tidbits to feed it.  

[Wayward Son]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I get that.  I guess to me, given how these kinds of negotiations start happening long before a strike becomes a factor, that the showrunners/writers might have been planning a plan B in case of, you know?

Hi sorry, I wasn't clear! What I meant was that (as I said in previous posts) I don't think there'd be a reason for them to end this season differently as the show has already been renewed for season 13 and the main writing will have finished by the time the strike starts! 

I was just adding to that point from previous post to say that I don't think season 13 should have Dean goes to hell style changes as they should enter the season aware of how many episodes the season will consist of and plot accordingly. 

So basically what I'm saying is that IMO the only influence the strike should have on the show is the length of season 13. I don't think there will be any dramatic storylines change to this season or next due to the timing of the strike, which should take place after 12 finishes and before 13 starts. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean these last 3 episodes looks very much like someone going through the motions.

To me, he looks like someone whom the writers are no longer interested in writing for at all, but since they have to they've decided to make him strictly into the clown-ish sidekick and/or a caricature of the original character. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

To me, he looks like someone whom the writers are no longer interested in writing for at all, but since they have to they've decided to make him strictly into the clown-ish sidekick and/or a caricature of the original character. 

For the first time in the show, I cant tell if Jensen is doing it because he's bored or if he's trying to show us Dean isn't into things. 

It seems like the couple Dean friendly writers we had were given the memo.  Bring and Glynn's last episodes were a huge let down from their previous ones.  Although Glynn did write Dean bumbling around the antique shop.  Asa Fox is probably my favorite writing for Dean so far this season (I credit Jensen for making 12.11 a highlight.  But Yockey's next ep is

 

Spoiler

Directed by Speight and I really disliked his last two eps

Quote

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by ILoveReading

[MysteryGuest]

I was just reading in the news that there is an offer on the table for the writers, and everyone seems hopeful that it will be accepted.  So fingers crossed that any potential strike can be averted.

[Myrelle]

Ugh to that spoiler. And ITA. I loved Regarding Dean. Everything else has been filed away under forgettable to me.

I've never felt as strongly that I actually could quit watching the show altogether as I feel right now. I thought it was bad after S8, but that was nothing compared to this. Even as bad as that season was, I still kind of figured and knew that I'd miss new Ackting and be jonesing for it and JA by the time the summer hiatus was over and even if it was going to be just to check out the premiere. 

Dabb has snuffed that out of me thoroughly with how he allowed Dean to be written in this last episode. I'm not even sad about saying good-bye to the show, at this point. I am sad about how it appears they're going to finish off writing Dean, though. It just feels so disrespectful to the iconic nature of the character and, of course, to the actor who portrays him, too-but at least the actor has a choice of whether to leave or stay. The character, unfortunately, doesn't. :-(

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dabb has snuffed that out of me thoroughly with how he allowed Dean to be written in this last episode. I'm not even sad about saying good-bye to the show, at this point. I am sad about how it appears they're going to finish off writing Dean, though. It just feels so disrespectful to the iconic nature of the character and, of course, to the actor who portrays him, too-but at least the actor has a choice of whether to leave or stay. The character, unfortunately, doesn't. :-(

This is where I'm at.  No matter how bad the writing was,  I always looked forward to Jensen's performance.  Regarding Dean is a good example of him elevating mediocre writing.  But even Jensen can't elevate wasn't isn't there.   I've been here since day one.  Through all the highs and lows so its not that easy to walk away without seeing through to its conclusion. 

But I'm no longer watching live, and I don't miss the fact that the show isn't on this week. 

With what I know about the rest of the season, I don't see it improving. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

I just read writers started voting last night on strike authorization. Interesting tweet from Robert Berens

[Diane]

Pretty sure this is why, it gives them leverage.

[catrox14]

Just now, Diane said:

Pretty sure this is why, it gives them leverage.

Yup. It lets the studios etc know they are serious about getting a better deal all around.

I don't have a problem with them striking but then I grew up in a family where both parents were members of unions so I get why they do it. Collective bargaining FTW! (IMO, YMMV, JHMO)

[Wayward Son]

I'm watching the Devil's Road Map featurette for Home. The following comment by Sera Gamble really stood out to me

Sera: "I have a younger brother, Im an older sister so when I approach scenes between Sam and Dean I tend to really understand where Dean is coming from"

I think it stood out to me because, even though I've always seen Sera as an equal lover of the brothers, I know many in fandom regard her as a Sam girl. So I found it an interesting perspective on where she was coming from while writing :)

Edited April 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Goldmoon]

I left after the second ep of season 7 when they killed Cas.  I had six more on the DVR and just erased them unwatched, because for me, killing Cas was a deal-breaker.  I came back for season 10 and bought the DVDs so I could catch up, but last season and this one are very difficult to watch.  The writing is at fault here.  I will stay until the end of this season, but I probably won't be back next year.  What I  will miss most of all is coming to read these forums and gain insight from all of you.  I am a Dean Girl, always have been.  How I miss the clever boy.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Spoilers With Speculation" thread. No spoilers:

2 hours ago, ster1 said:

I just read a Tumblr meta laying out how S12 is all about misdirection, withheld info, and subversion.  The author was convinced that the reason it's so difficult to speculate about the finale/there's so little foreshadowing this season compared to others is because we're missing key info. Apparently,  that's going to be revealed in the last few episodes, making this season brilliant in retrospect. 

With all due respect to the meta writer, her analysis was actually far more in-depth and cohesive than anything I've seen onscreen this season. And even if she's right about it all magically coming together in the end (which, yeah, so not going to happen), keeping both the brothers and the audience in the dark is a risky strategy.  As a viewer, I want to share in the creative journey of a season. I don't want to feel lost and wonder what the heck's going on until the 11th hour when the showrunner yells, "Surprise! See how clever we were! Ha ha, you had no idea what we were doing, didjya?" That's just a great way to alienate an audience. Even a lot of  long time, hardcore fans are saying they're confused and frustrated by this season. 

Yet this is what the writers did - in my opinion - in season 4, and it is considered one of the better written seasons of the series and ends up on a lot of peoples' favorites list... Not mine, but I'm in the minority here. But in that season what was actually going on with Sam was left until more than 2/3 of the way through the season and left me at least wondering what the heck was wrong with Sam and not understanding why was he acting this way. But by the time we found out - and some of the stuff we found out along the way was lame, in my opinion and made no sense (like the end of "Chris Angel...") - it was almost too late and I was just lucky that season 5 was sufficient for me to redeem Sam. For a lot of other viewers, it was too late.

Even the Dean remembering hell reveal didn't seem genuine, because Dean's behavior - for me - was all over the place and, looking back - again for me - Dean supposedly remembering from the beginning didn't make sense based on his behavior, so the reveal for me fell flat. I think I remember losing some of the impact from the reveal by simultaneously thinking "bullcrap" - because if anything, based on what I saw, Dean regained his memories slowly and then starting more in earnest mostly from "Yellow Fever" and "It's the Great Pumpkin..." and I suspected that it was Uriel who gave Dean his hell memories back and/or caused them to come to the forefront. And based on what I saw, that made the most sense. So that also was a writer fail for me.

ABut then there was season 6... and that one worked for me. I loved the twist, I didn't expect it at all, and once I saw it and with the help of "The Man Who Would Be King," all of the other weird stuff that had been happening made sense to me in retrospect... even Castiel's odd stance on soulless Sam in retrospect made so much more sense after the reveal. And similar to season 4, we were mostly in the dark, but everything made sense in the end. I thought that season 6 was better done, though, because at least Castiel got that episode that explained things (Sam's similar one in season 4 somehow explained some things, but mostly stuff we already knew, without explaining the most important things) and it made sense. And despite Castiel making the wrong decisions, I could see why he was doing it and where it all went wrong and why. Unfortunately for me, season 4 left out quite a few steps, and I had to make up headcanon to explain things and sympathize with Sam. His motivations instead got explained away later with "oh he was just arrogant" and "it was the demon blood." I thought the writers did a much better job with Castiel.

I thought it was similar with Soulless Sam. Though some of it in retrospect was a little inconsistent, it could mostly be explained by Soulless Sam trying so hard to be "normal" versus when he finally just let the facade slip and didn't give a shit about pretending anymore. And for me, still much better done than Sam addicted to demon blood in season 4.

Quote

One of my pet peeves this season has been the godawful characterizations.  I don't understand Valium!Dean, Lobotomized!Sam, IceBitch!Mary. I don't even know what to say about Cas, since he did a 180 in the last episode and then went MIA. Even Crowley's acting like an idiot, thinking he can tame Lucifer without BAD THINGS HAPPENING. Sigh.

  As I hinted at above, for me it all depends on whether it is explained well or not. I thought season 6 did a great job. I thought season 4 didn't. But I also realize that I am probably in the minority with both of those opinions.

Edited to add: Oh, I remembered another season 4 "gotcha!" reveal that in retrospect the clues weren't entirely consistent: Uriel being a Lucifer proponent. Uriel actually being a Lucifer proponent should've meant that he should've been more pro-Sam rather than wanting to kill Sam. Even if Uriel didn't know that Sam was Lucifer's true vessel, it should've been at least guessed that Azazel was pro-Lucifer, and so someone given powers by Azazel should somehow factor into being good for the Lucifer cause. He also shouldn't have been so gung-ho on killing the town in "It's the Great Pumpkin..." to stop the seal from breaking... He should've been more trying to figure out how to let that seal break while not appearing to do so, since the seals breaking was key to getting Lucifer out - which was what Uriel supposedly wanted. So based on Uriel's strong negative feelings about the seals breaking, and about demons - who were trying to break the seals - and Ruby and Sam in particular, his "Yay Lucifer!" stance - for me anyway - seemed to have come from out of left field.

Edited April 21, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Myrelle]

I think that S6 was going for SoullessSam as the one who was working with Crowley at first, but mid-stream the writers decided to do away with that idea because the SoullessSam sl did not go over well with all of fandom and that's why Castiel became the turncoat by season's end.

IOW, they changed horses mid-stream because of the fandom backlash to SoullessSam and Edlund's episode cemented that very well, IMO. I have to hand it to him for The Man Who Would Be King because he accomplished that very well for them in that episode. 

And I can say that even though I'm not a big fan of Edlund's writing and/or most of his episodes at all on this show after The End.

S6 was predictable in that way though, and IMO-and especially in re-watches of it.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

38 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I think that S6 was going for SoullessSam as the one who was working with Crowley at first, but mid-stream the writers decided to do away with that idea because the SoullessSam sl did not go over well with all of fandom and that's why Castiel became the turncoat by season's end.

Based on what someone posted on the board somewhere of how writing assignments and episode filming works, I'm not sure I could see this theory happening, especially if with this theory, SoullessSam was supposed to stay around longer to be working with Crowley. Sam got his soul back by the 11th episode, which was the last episode before the midseason break. We, the viewers, didn't even know that Sam was soulless until the beginning of the 7th episode, and though Sam was acting somewhat strangely from the beginning, it wasn't really obvious something was seriously wrong until the 5th episode, "Live Free or Twihard," so for me it would be difficult for the writers to have supposedly shifted the soulless Sam plotline on such short notice. If it had happened after the midseason break, then I might have been more inclined to consider that the plot might have been changed because of negative feedback (though even that might've been tough)

Though interestingly on the board that I was on at the time, there were quite a few people - once they found out what was going on - who thought that soulless Sam was great, and they were actually sad to see him go so soon. For me, I found soulless Sam interesting - and completely creepy and somewhat scary - but at the same time, I was glad to have regular Sam back when we got him back. It was just the right amount of time for me. And then the plot picked up and there were a bunch of episodes that I liked to take up the storyline after soulless Sam was gone.

Also for me there were clues along the way. Cas' alliance with shady Balthazar and collecting all the weapons made more sense with Cas being the one wheeling and dealing with Crowley (due to needing power against Raphael). And I think if nothing else, it had been decided by "My Heart Will Go On" (episode 17) at the latest - though I'm guessing probably before. I'm also not sure how Sam would have pulled off the deception in "Caged Heat" - episode 10 - since how would Sam have been able to supposedly get Crowley's bones without Dean knowing and/or at least questioning it. I'm also not sure how Raphael would have fit in to a Crowley / soulless Sam alliance, or if he didn't, then I don't know what part Cas would have played if it was just Sam and Crowley trying to get the power from purgatory - and was Sam supposedly supposed to be the one to house the purgatory souls, or Crowley? To me what happened made more sense.

The only part that didn't quite gel for me and that I found annoying was the Samuel Campbell part of the storyline. Everything else for me - soulless Sam and Castiel's weirdness about it, Castiel's alliance with Crowley, and the angel war with Raphael all made sense and fit in with what happened throughout the season... and I was pleasantly surprised by a lot of it - Sam being soulless, Crowley not being dead, Castiel secretly working with Crowley, Castiel double-crossing Crowley... all unexpected for me, and it all worked for me.

So for me what happened made too much sense in retrospect for it to have been changed midstream, and I thought that the writers - especially Ben Edlund - did a good job of wrapping that all up so it made sense and all the pieces fit. Just my opinion on that.

[Myrelle]

I think they decided very, very early on(possibly right after the premiere aired, even) that they'd make it a half season arc rather the full season one that Gamble wanted(I think she even mentioned in an interview back then that she'd wanted to go the full season with it).

I can still remember the almost universal bad/poor reception that the premiere received at the number of sites that I used to visit back then. I'm sure the PTBs noticed also and I DO believe that Gamble was always hopeful of hanging onto the showrunner position and would not and could not have ignored that kind/level of negative backlash.

I believe that from the planning stages in the summer, she set up that season with two possible directions to take it(as I also believe has happened BTS of this show with almost every season after the first or second season, or possibly the third, and this, even though the writers' strike is and was always pointed out as being the main reason that the end of that season was changed), and it was always all going to depend on how well SoullessSam and JiminyCricketDean would have been received, so yes , episodes like Caged Heat and Clap Your Hands... were always going to made and shown, but again, I think that the decision to go with option 2 which made Cas the betrayor instead of Sam was decided on pretty much after the first few episodes aired. And it should not be forgotten or be left unremarked on that DomesticatedDean was also a huge flop for her within the Dean fandom. I remember that very well also.

I thought that the most telling line that Sam was supposed to be the original betrayor came in Weekend at Bobby's while they were threatening to  burn Crowley's bones at the end and Dean was toying with the idea of burning them anyway even after Crowley had released Bobby's soul from the deal. Sam said something about it not being "right" to re-neg on a deal in that manner and to me the two might even have shared a look, IIRC, but it HAS been a long time since I've seen that episode-so maybe the shared look was all in my head, but I clearly remember that line because canon-wise there would have been no other reason for them NOT to burn Crowley's bones at that time and after what he'd tried to do to Bobby.

But yes, like you, that's JMO on why and how I think Cas was written as the betrayor by the season's end, though, too. And I think it was for the best, as I don't think that they would have done the Sam character any favors by making him the betrayor, especially right on the heels of the Ruby business. 

I think that the original and planned out fork in the road episode was always going to be Appointment in Samarra-which was episode10 or 11, I believe, which would have given them plenty of time to have re-written parts of it and/or just  tweaked the script to go another/different way. OR she might even have had a totally and completely different second half season in mind, and one that was that just waiting in the wings, and that's just where it remained.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Myrelle

[Wayward Son]

I honestly think it was planned to be Castiel / Crowley behind the scenes from the start, but @Myrelle's suggestion that it was a change of plan would explain Gamble's original intent to character assassinate Castiel and then write him out of the show without any sort of redemptive arc. What I mean is, if it was something forced on her by negative fan reaction it'd explain a lack of interest in a proper follow up. I'll say no more because further ranting would belong in the bitterness thread. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

I had about a 90 min conversation with Adam Glass in the summer after his last season as Head Writer.  He summed up the planning as:

First half (thru the return from mid-season cliffhanger)!mapped out in early summer. Broad strokes for the entire year. What is point A (start) through point B (season finale) are established along with major themes and character arcs.  Scripts through 4 or 5 done before filming even starts.   The details of individual scripts are worked out through a standard cycle.  When they start to see dailies they will tweek some of the later portion of the first half of scripts (EP 6-10) based on what THEY think is working or not. Case in point: they fell in love with Ruth and Rowena got more lines .

In November, they assess how it's going and pitch the rest of the year.  So IF there's an issue, Including AUDIENCE feedback, a major course correction isn't until February.  They have firm plans up until the last four episodes.  They dont firm up the last four episodes until they know they have a pickup for the next year. This is about late January   Even if it's not announced, they have a sense from the network to wrap it up or not.

So the next opportunity for 'feedback' having influence is for the last run of episodes and it's just after Christmas for the main ideas.  In March they are finalizing the last four scripts.  

According to Glass there's definitely a plan for the Big Picture, themes, and character arcs  They do adjust in November if something is not working well or something is working really well.  They'll adjust based on actor talent (recurring Big Bads as an example) as well.  They want to stay open to a collaborative, creative environment while still having an overall objective.

He kept emphasizing that it was flexible how each writer 'got there' but he road was pretty set.  

Disclaimer: I was progressively increasing my alcohol intake during he night.  I'm pretty sure I've faithfully recalled the conversation but if I miss a detail, I blame it on nervous/happy drinking.  

Having said all this: I think Cas was the Big Bad from the jump.  That's a Point A to point B thing that doesn't change.  A major course correction would be 'the audience doesn't like the sexual vibe with Amara, tone it down'.  I suspect that one actually happened. 

ETA: My specific conversation started off with me saying ' I always get in arguments regarding how much of the season is mapped out and how much you just put out as you go along.  Can you tell me how that works.'  The short answer is it's mapped out but not too rigidly.  

Edited April 22, 2017 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I find it hard to believe they shifted very much story around before the winter hiatus. I mean, I've heard that they cut short Soulless Sam because of negative feedback, but I'm not sure I buy that, myself. I mean, they would've had four or five episodes in the bag when the first one aired, another three well into production--one in post; one shooting; one prepping--and two or three other scripts already in various stages of production. That's, at minimum, nine episodes in various stages of production when the first one aired. I would doubt they would change course after just one episode aired.

I think it more likely they reassessed after they finished production on the first half and corrected some things in the second. For one, I'm guessing the Campbell gang was written out simply because the characters didn't go over well. And, if anyone was meant to be the antagonist instead of Crowley, I'd say it was Grampy, myself. 

But, mostly, from interviews and commentaries, it certainly sounds like Cass was planned from the beginning. I certainly didn't know what he was up to, but I knew he was up to something, and it wasn't probably good, from almost his first appearance in S6. IMO, Sam was always planned to be the McGuffin of the season; he was distraction for not only Dean, but the audience, as well. 

[rue721]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

For one, I'm guessing the Campbell gang was written out simply because the characters didn't go over well.

Took this to the All Seasons' thread:

Edited April 22, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm trying to think about how it could have gone better, but honestly, I don't know how they could/should have fit in Samuel at that point. Or why they were trying to fit him in at that point at all, either.

The problem with Samuel for me was, he was basically bizarro Bobby. It's interesting in the context of how differently the Campbells worked than Bobby's circle of hunters, but, like you said, the whole thing wasn't fleshed out enough to really work. I think there was potential there to flesh out the Campbell history more, though.

[Demented Daisy]

On 4/17/2017 at 6:10 PM, trxr4kids said:

I don't remember how far Demented Daisy got in her analysis season wise but I recall it was fairly balanced. I think it makes sense though if Dean had more kills and Sam had more plans in recent seasons due to the MoC. My problem is that it feels like Sam and Dean really aren't the main characters this season since for the first time the mytharc isn't directly tied to either of them and it's throwing me off.

Here you go.  :-)
 

On 8/17/2016 at 2:12 PM, Demented Daisy said:

*snip*

Which brings our new tallies, for all 11 seasons, to:

Sam Plans -- 51
Sam Saves -- 36
Sam Kills -- 42

Dean Plans -- 33
Dean Saves -- 40
Dean Kills -- 58 (plus 4 in Purgatory)

Joint Plans -- 56
Joint Saves -- 64
Joint Kills -- 28

No Plan -- 99
No Save -- 101
No Kill -- 114

 

Really, to me, things are about even.  Sam has the lead in plans, while Dean has a slight lead in saves and a larger lead in kills (again, thank you, Mark of Cain -- take those kills out and Sam and Dean are essentially tied in that category).

Oh, and even more importantly: more often than not, they have a plan, they save people, and they kill the baddie.  Though that no kill number is getting awfully close (128 kills vs 114 no kills).

 

On 12/9/2016 at 11:19 AM, Demented Daisy said:

For what it's worth, here are the numbers for the first half of the season:

Dean Plans -- 2
Dean Saves -- 1
Dean Kills -- 1

Sam Plans -- 1
Sam Saves -- 1
Sam Kills -- 1

Joint Plans -- 1
Joint Saves -- 5
Joint Kills -- 0

No Plan -- 4
No Save -- 1
No Kill -- 6

I'm not going to add these to the overall tally yet.  I had a few minutes to kill, so I figured why not.  :-) 

A few more weeks and I'll have the final numbers.  If I have time.  (See Small Talk thread.  ;-) )

[ILoveReading]

I don't think Dabb meant for Mary, or the British Men of Letters to come across as badly as they have.

I think this season suffered from the same problems of season 6.  Good ideas but trying to hard to cram them all into one season.  I think this season would have been better served if they eliminated Lucifer completely and focused just on the British men of Letters. There were some interesting characters and lots of room for shades of grey if there was a clear story idea, but I feel like every writer has a different idea of who they're supposed to be. 

Dabb couldn't even keep it straight in one episode.  Nothing about Lady Toni's actions made sense.   Why did the Brits come over just as the world was about to end.  Where were they and their fancy toys when there was an apocalypse.   Why torture Sam when you want his help?

Show us more of the shades of grey, because there is a lot. What's the better way?  Eliminate all monsters, and you take out some that don't deserve to be killed and also by sitting back and waiting till they had more intel, then the collateral damage would be higher, or taking out those that deserve it one at a time and allowing those that deserve it a 2nd chance.

There is no right or wrong to either side because they both have their advantages and disadvantages. 

As unpopular as this opinion might be I also feel it would have been better to have the brothers each maintain their own stances.  They are vastly different people who aren't going to agree on everything.  I think it could have lead to some interesting philosophical conversations between the boys, kind of like they had in Faith and Nightmare about what do they do with human monsters and was it okay for them to kill them.  You wouldn't even really have to separate the brothers because you could just have them show up at the same hunt, as a way to demonstrate their bond.   Instead of turning Mary into an antagonist, have her remain neutral and over the course of the season getting to know her sons

Disagreements aren't always about bad/good, right/wrong sometimes is just different ways of thinking.  In the end it could have been both learning from the other.  

To this day, Faith is still my all time favorite episodes, because I think it dealt really well with the two major themes of the show.  What makes a monster and how far is to far to save a loved one.  Sam and Dean seemed to be on opposite sides that episode so if done right it can be effective without turning to angst.  

As for the antagonist, I don't think a huge big bad would have been needed.  It could have been a rogue faction in the Brits who were working for the monsters and leaking intel.  Hunters were getting hurt, and at first it looks like the brits are corrupt but in the end its not the organization as a whole.   As for Cas and Crowley they could have been targets.

Then you have drama but in the end, again neither brother is going to end up looking like the wrong one. 

I get that Jared and Jensen are only working part time, but I think they missed an opportunity to really develop other hunters, and have more emphasis on the recruitment drives and have other hunters either sign up or not. Develop a friendship between Mick and Sam.  Have Dean be a mirror to Ketch and allow him to realize he isn't just a killer.

As it stands right now, everything about this season is so poorly throughout and executed.   The potential was there but none of it was realized.  Instead they destroyed Mary, Sam and Dean look like patsies, Dean is...I'm not sure but I gave up trying to figure it out. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[shang yiet]

What will Cas and Crowley do without Lucifer? They're not connected to the BMoL story.  Do the British even know Cas, Crowley and Lucifer exist? I bet they will burst with excitement once they find they have an archangel, a demon and an angel to experiment on. But I agree that's one way to connect up both plotlines.

There's no need to get rid of Lucifer, most shows have an A plotline running together with a B plotline.

Quote

I also feel it would have been better to have the brothers each maintain their own stances.  They are vastly different people who aren't going to agree on everything. ... There is no right or wrong to either side because they both have their advantages and disadvantages. ..... Disagreements aren't always about bad/good, right/wrong sometimes is just different ways of thinking.  In the end it could have been both learning from the other.  

Totally agree. I never needed the brothers to be on the same page on every issue. That would make them clones. How dull would that be?

But ahem... from my experience, division or disagreement between the brothers tend to lead to fandom division and disagreement as well. Not every episode is as good as Faith where you can have Sam and Dean disagree about things without causing bitterness or fans being hit with a sledgehammer about who's wrong or right.

Quote

Then you have drama but in the end, again neither brother is going to end up looking like the wrong one. 

I wish! That would require very good, layered and subtle writing.

Edited April 23, 2017 by shang yiet

[Wayward Son]

I rewatched Crossroad Blues today (it's always been one of my favourites) and the following scene really stood out to me

 

Quote

EVAN
She had cancer, they'd stopped treatment, they were moving her into hospice, they kept saying... a matter of days. So yeah, I made the deal. And I'd do it again. I'd have died for her on the spot. 
 

DEAN
Did you ever think about her in all this?
 

EVAN
I did this for her.
 

DEAN
(advancing on him)
You sure about that? I think you did it for yourself. So you wouldn't have to live without her. But guess what? She's going to have to live without you now. But what if she knew how much it cost? What if she knew it cost your soul? How do you think she'd feel?
 

SAM
(putting a hand on DEAN'S chest, pulling him back)
Okay, that's enough. You just sit tight, all right? We're going to figure this out. 

Too bad Season Two Dean wasn't around to have a quiet chat with his season nine counterpart. At least he was able to acknowledge that deals to save a loved one arent selfless, and they are just as much about the one making the deal as the one being saved. 

Funnily enough, Dean here is acting very much like Sam during his speech at the end of The Purge. In both cases someone who made a deal to save a loved one is being called out, in a rather hostile manner, on the selfish aspect of the act.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

50 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Funnily enough Dean here is acting very much like Sam during his speech in The Purge. In both cases someone who made a deal to save a loved one is being called out in a rather hostile manner on the selfish aspect of the act.

It's a recurring theme...Bobby said the exact same thing to Dean after he sold his soul to save Sam.  When you're in your rational mind, you can see both sides, but when you are desperate to save someone else, or desperate not to lose them, you tend to only see one side.  I'm not bothered by the fact that it's both selfless and selfish at the same time.  It's human nature.  When you mourn the loss of a loved one, you're mourning their loss of life as well as your loss of them.  

The people who sell their souls for money, or larger penises...those people I don't have much sympathy for.

Edited April 23, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Funnily enough, Dean here is acting very much like Sam during his speech at the end of The Purge. In both cases someone who made a deal to save a loved one is being called out, in a rather hostile manner, on the selfish aspect of the act.

My entire problem with the Purge speech was that Dean wasn`t called out on the specific event but it devolved into blanket statements all over. Dean having been selfish with the Gadreel thing? Fair point. Dean supposedly being nothing but selfish, pathetic and cowardly all his life and never once anything different? Fuck you, show.

Of course Dean was openly hostile in Crossroad Blues because he projected all over the place. But he didn`t diminish the entire worth of that guy he called out on the deal. Granted, he didn`t that person but that is what makes the situations utterly incomparable to me.    

[ahrtee]

29 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Too bad Season Two Dean wasn't around to have a quiet chat with his season nine counterpart. At least he was able to acknowledge that deals to save a loved one arent selfless, and they are just as much about the one making the deal as the one being saved. 

Actually, Sam told Dean he was selfish to sell his soul immediately, and Dean acknowledged it,  From The Magnificent Seven:

SAM:  Yeah, well, you're a hypocrite, Dean. How did you feel when Dad sold his soul for you? 'Cause I was there. I remember. You were twisted, and broken. And now you go and do the same thing. To me. (pause) What you did was selfish.

DEAN: Yeah, you're right. It was selfish. But I'm okay with that.

SAM: I'm not.

DEAN: Tough. After everything I've done for this family, I think I'm entitled. (pause) Truth is, I'm tired, Sam. I don't know, it's like there's a, a light at the end of the tunnel.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, Sam told Dean he was selfish to sell his soul immediately, and Dean acknowledged it,  From The Magnificent Seven:

SAM:  Yeah, well, you're a hypocrite, Dean. How did you feel when Dad sold his soul for you? 'Cause I was there. I remember. You were twisted, and broken. And now you go and do the same thing. To me. (pause) What you did was selfish.

DEAN: Yeah, you're right. It was selfish. But I'm okay with that.

SAM: I'm not.

DEAN: Tough. After everything I've done for this family, I think I'm entitled. (pause) Truth is, I'm tired, Sam. I don't know, it's like there's a, a light at the end of the tunnel.

Oh I agree, but that's why I specified that it was season nine Dean I would like his season two counterpart to have a chat with ;) . Unlike the scene you quote during season nine Dean refused to admit to Sam his actions were anything less than noble. 

I mean compare the scene you quote to 

Quote

SAM [sighing in frustration almost leaves but then decides to explain. He come into the kitchen and sits down across from DEAN, who draws back unconsciously]

Okay. Just once, be honest with me. You didn't save me for me. You did it for you.

 

DEAN [totally confused]

What are you talkin' about?

 

SAM

I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died, but you... You didn't want to be alone, and that's what all this boils down to. You can't stand the thought of being alone.

Unlike season 2 / 3 where Dean displays self-awareness about the more selfish aspects of his actions. In season 9 he has regressed to seeing it in black and white and holds the narrative he's the righteous brother who selflessly saved Sam so they can fight the good fight together. This shown in the utter confusion he displays when Sam calls him out on doing it for himself. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ahrtee]

Oops...premature posting.  Will continue later.

Edited April 23, 2017 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, shang yiet said:

I bet they will burst with excitement once they find they have an archangel, a demon and an angel to experiment on.

 It would be interesting to see them attempt this only to be completely destroyed because they're not run of the mill creatures. I think that it would be cool to see Lucifer wipe them out to take away the threat to the Nephilim.

 

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think Dabb meant for Mary, or the British Men of Letters to come across as badly as they have.

I think this season suffered from the same problems of season 6.  Good ideas but trying to hard to cram them all into one season.  I think this season would have been better served if they eliminated Lucifer completely and focused just on the British men of Letters. There were some interesting characters and lots of room for shades of grey if there was a clear story idea, but I feel like every writer has a different idea of who they're supposed to be. 

Dabb couldn't even keep it straight in one episode.  Nothing about Lady Toni's actions made sense.   Why did the Brits come over just as the world was about to end.  Where were they and their fancy toys when there was an apocalypse.   Why torture Sam when you want his help?

Show us more of the shades of grey, because there is a lot. What's the better way?  Eliminate all monsters, and you take out some that don't deserve to be killed and also by sitting back and waiting till they had more intel, then the collateral damage would be higher, or taking out those that deserve it one at a time and allowing those that deserve it a 2nd chance.

There is no right or wrong to either side because they both have their advantages and disadvantages. 

As unpopular as this opinion might be I also feel it would have been better to have the brothers each maintain their own stances.  They are vastly different people who aren't going to agree on everything.  I think it could have lead to some interesting philosophical conversations between the boys, kind of like they had in Faith and Nightmare about what do they do with human monsters and was it okay for them to kill them.  You wouldn't even really have to separate the brothers because you could just have them show up at the same hunt, as a way to demonstrate their bond.   Instead of turning Mary into an antagonist, have her remain neutral and over the course of the season getting to know her sons

Disagreements aren't always about bad/good, right/wrong sometimes is just different ways of thinking.  In the end it could have been both learning from the other.  

To this day, Faith is still my all time favorite episodes, because I think it dealt really well with the two major themes of the show.  What makes a monster and how far is to far to save a loved one.  Sam and Dean seemed to be on opposite sides that episode so if done right it can be effective without turning to angst.  

As for the antagonist, I don't think a huge big bad would have been needed.  It could have been a rogue faction in the Brits who were working for the monsters and leaking intel.  Hunters were getting hurt, and at first it looks like the brits are corrupt but in the end its not the organization as a whole.   As for Cas and Crowley they could have been targets.

Then you have drama but in the end, again neither brother is going to end up looking like the wrong one. 

I get that Jared and Jensen are only working part time, but I think they missed an opportunity to really develop other hunters, and have more emphasis on the recruitment drives and have other hunters either sign up or not. Develop a friendship between Mick and Sam.  Have Dean be a mirror to Ketch and allow him to realize he isn't just a killer.

As it stands right now, everything about this season is so poorly throughout and executed.   The potential was there but none of it was realized.  Instead they destroyed Mary, Sam and Dean look like patsies, Dean is...I'm not sure but I gave up trying to figure it out. 

Agree to all of this especially with the bolded parts. The current season is the only one where I have enjoyed only a few episodes. Even seasons 4 and 8 which are my least favorite have some gems that I enjoy upon rewatch. To your Faith reference I would also like to add the differing viewpoints between Sam and Dean in Houses of the Holy which I believe was the first ep where they touched on the existence of angels, prayer and good over evil. By the end Dean's instinct that they were dealing with a spirit was correct but he had also opened his mind to the idea of a higher power stepping in as per Sam's belief. I miss the way that the brothers were written in the earlier seasons.

As for the BMOL I feel that they were made into over the top supervillians. Mick was killed ( pointlessly) and Ketch has been paired with Mary which will affect the relationship between all 3 Winchesters. I hope that there is some good in the final episodes to make up for what we've gotten so far.

[ahrtee]

59 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Oh I agree, but that's why I specified that it was season nine Dean I would like his season two counterpart to have a chat with ;) . Unlike the scene you quote during season nine Dean refused to admit to Sam his actions were anything less than noble. 

...

Unlike season 2 / 3 where Dean displays self-awareness about the more selfish aspects of his actions. In season 9 he has regressed to seeing it in black and white and holds the narrative he's the righteous brother who selflessly saved Sam so they can fight the good fight together. This shown in the utter confusion he displays when Sam calls him out on doing it for himself. 

I think we may just have to agree to disagree on motivations.  I don't think Dean ever said, much less considered saving Sam was "noble," or anything other than "I couldn't live with you dead," which he's expressed before in so many words.  He didn't want Sam to die when he thought they could find another way--especially since Sam had already declared that he *didn't* want to die, and so Dean could consider that it was just the illness and exhaustion that was making him "give up."    

Over the years, Sam (and Bobby) have both called out Dean for wanting to sacrifice himself instead of looking for another way--and so far, they've always found it, even if it wasn't necessarily a good answer, and usually wound up sacrificing someone else instead.  So Sam could have said something about that instead, but then he'd have to take an equal share of the blame.  

 And it's not that Dean "couldn't stand the thought of being alone."  We know that he's lived alone many times, first when John left, then (not counting Stanford) the other times when Sam took off (like in the fallout after Amy--which I'm NOT saying was either right or wrong).  I'm just pointing out that Dean may not like being alone, but he can do it, as long as he thinks Sam is safe and more or less happy.  He opted to stay with Lisa and Ben when Sam wanted him to come back, until Lisa almost literally threw him out, accepted Sam's marriage to Becky (not without suspicion and questions, but he did give them a wedding present and left them to hunt together), and was even willing to let Sam go back to Amelia if that's what he wanted.  And every time, it was *Sam's* choice to work together again. Dean didn't force him. 

Dean just doesn't want Sam dead.  He's said that over and over.  That's not saying that he's "righteous" or even right.  But it is an integral part of his character, and Sam knows that, even when he's frustrated by it.  And Sam has done the same thing--even trying to trade his own life (or Bobby's) for Dean's.

So I don't think you can point a finger at one Winchester in particular for being selfish.  Dean at least acknowledged it once upon a time.  Sam didn't, except his "I lied," in season 10, which isn't quite the same.  And Sam's speech in The Purge is one of my hot buttons for that reason--for putting all the blame for selfishness on Dean and, at the same time, negating his entire reason for being: "saving people, hunting things," making it seem to be purely selfish.  To me, that's unfair.