“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Jeddah]

34 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, most of the complaints I've seen about Dean is that he isn't being given anything to do, not that anyone objects to what he's doing.  Not exactly the same thing.  

I said people complain that the writers made him unimportant. Is that really that different than people complaining he has nothing to do?

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I said people complain that the writers made him unimportant. Is that really that different than people complaining he has nothing to do?

It is if we're talking about the characters behaving OOC, which is what I was.  

[Jeddah]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It is if we're talking about the characters behaving OOC, which is what I was.  

I guess agree to disagree on this. I definitely have seen people complaining that the writers consider Dean unimportant to the story.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Jeddah said:

I guess agree to disagree on this. I definitely have seen people complaining that the writers consider Dean unimportant to the story.

Again, that's not making him behave OOC.  But we can agree to disagree.  

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

How wouldn't he have died? 

He got one year, and one year only, to live with Sam, and THEN he died. Because of the deal.

Besides, he had lived without Sam fir the entirety of Sam's time in Stanford and accepted that they were apart.

Exactly.  I said that if he hadn't made the deal, then he wouldn't have died.  I mean, of course he would have eventually.  But not necessarily within the year.

And, I wasn't arguing why he brought Sam back. I was arguing that it was a stupid thing to do regardless of the reason.  You don't give your eternity to save someone else's temporary.  That's nonsensical.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

You don't give your eternity to save someone else's temporary.  That's nonsensical.

Sometimes its not so simplistic.  Sam and Dean risk their eternity for someone else's temporay every time they go on hunts.   It may not be a deal, but the they do this voluntarily knowing that there is a good chance they could be killed.

So do soldiers, cops, and firefighters and numerous other professions. 

[BabySpinach]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Exactly.  I said that if he hadn't made the deal, then he wouldn't have died.  I mean, of course he would have eventually.  But not necessarily within the year.

And, I wasn't arguing why he brought Sam back. I was arguing that it was a stupid thing to do regardless of the reason.  You don't give your eternity to save someone else's temporary.  That's nonsensical.

It's only nonsensical if you have a healthy sense of self, which Dean absolutely did not have (and probably still doesn't). He believed that Sam's life was worth more than even his own soul, and that his only purpose was to look after his little brother. His action was in-character, which is far more relevant to a story than objective sense or logic. 

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sometimes its not so simplistic.  Sam and Dean risk their eternity for someone else's temporay every time they go on hunts.   It may not be a deal, but the they do this voluntarily knowing that there is a good chance they could be killed.

No, they do not risk their eternity every time they go on a hunt. They risk their temporary.  There are very few things that they do on a normal hunt that would drag them off to Hell instead of Heaven.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

No, they do not risk their eternity every time they go on a hunt. They risk their temporary.  There are very few things that they do on a normal hunt that would drag them off to Hell instead of Heaven.

Dean thinks he's going to burn in hell so I'd say he's risking his eternity or beleives he does every time he goes on a hunt.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean thinks he's going to burn in hell so I'd say he's risking his eternity or beleives he does every time he goes on a hunt.

Well, if he's going to go to Hell no matter when he dies, he's still not risking his eternity by dying sooner.  He's just getting there sooner.

Besides, there's a difference between taking a risk and 100% ensuring something.

I'm also not entirely sure why he would think that at this point.  The only time he died and remembered where he went it was Heaven.  

And in Season 2, if he were already bound for hell, no demon would have bothered buying his soul.  (They would based on what we know about Sam, but from Dean's perspective, if he thought he were already going to Hell, he wouldn't have bothered trying to make a trade-off).

Edited April 14, 2019 by Katy M

[trudysmom]

21 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

The Js will give us a blast of a season and Dabb will just have to go along.

Fingers crossed, Pondlass1, and toes and eyes...

[ILoveReading]

This show just loves to dumb Dean down and throw him under the bus.

[ILoveReading]

I'm thinking that wasn't Dean crying in the woods, it was Jensen when it dawned on him that he committed to another year of this fuckery. 

Seriously, there will be nothing left of his character by the end of next year.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Jack in the Box" episode thread:

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Fandom has changed very much since season 4. While pitting brother against brother is bad enough it's nauseating to see a main trashed in favor for the resident Mary Sue.

I'm still not sure that's what will ultimately happen, but I can also sympathize with what you are feeling.

For me, not only did season 8 pit brother against brother, but it trashed Sam in favor of the vampire with a heart of gold. Because Benny couldn't be a "better brother" if Sam wasn't also trashed at the same time, I think Carver did exactly that so his original character Benny could shine. He started the process from episode 1, too, and made sure Benny got hurt by Sam but still saved him anyway in a heroic send-off. Total trashing of Sam, in my opinion, so that Benny could be the hero.

It also happened again in season 9 with Gadreel. In order for Gadreel to be redeemed, Sam's possession got whitewashed, Kevin's death likewise, and Sam got benched in the finale - and turned into a hypocrite and someone who holds a grudge - while Gadreel got a heroic send off. Again, it was Carver's original character Gadreel who got a shining moment instead of Sam, and Sam was made to look like he had been angry for nothing because Gadreel's possession wasn't so bad after all and Gadreel was just "misunderstood" after Sam looked at it correctly.

So I understand your frustration.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Jack in the Box" episode thread:

I'm still not sure that's what will ultimately happen, but I can also sympathize with what you are feeling.

For me, not only did season 8 pit brother against brother, but it trashed Sam in favor of the vampire with a heart of gold. Because Benny couldn't be a "better brother" if Sam wasn't also trashed at the same time, I think Carver did exactly that so his original character Benny could shine. He started the process from episode 1, too, and made sure Benny got hurt by Sam but still saved him anyway in a heroic send-off. Total trashing of Sam, in my opinion, so that Benny could be the hero.

It also happened again in season 9 with Gadreel. In order for Gadreel to be redeemed, Sam's possession got whitewashed, Kevin's death likewise, and Sam got benched in the finale - and turned into a hypocrite and someone who holds a grudge - while Gadreel got a heroic send off. Again, it was Carver's original character Gadreel who got a shining moment instead of Sam, and Sam was made to look like he had been angry for nothing because Gadreel's possession wasn't so bad after all and Gadreel was just "misunderstood" after Sam looked at it correctly.

So I understand your frustration.

I get your frustration as you've mentioned how annoyed you've been with fandom in regards to seasons 8 & 9 in regards to Sam vs Dean. However, I'm speaking in regards to both brothers and how their characterization has been thrown under the bus in favor for the shiny new toy that is Jack. I wasn't looking at it from a BvJ viewpoint.

[Lastcall]

17 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I get your frustration as you've mentioned how annoyed you've been with fandom in regards to seasons 8 & 9 in regards to Sam vs Dean. However, I'm speaking in regards to both brothers and how their characterization has been thrown under the bus in favor for the shiny new toy that is Jack. I wasn't looking at it from a BvJ viewpoint.

I was team free will until Dabb. From The Raid on I felt he was trying to turn the series into the Sam show. I was very pissed about all the glory episodes after the Ramiel episode, then the leader thing. This season was the worst except it seemed like every writer was showing how much better their pet character was. Saying that, once the pets started devouring each other I softened on the Sam resentment. That was all thanks to the Sam beat down from Nick. I even thought it was strange he beat Mary after all the episodes trying to prove she was a badass. The Nick thing was the biggest character assassination I have ever seen and it did balance the scales a bit for me. So I’m hopeful that J2 really do have some power next year and both Sam and Dean are finally made the priority again.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Lastcall

[AwesomO4000]

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm speaking in regards to both brothers and how their characterization has been thrown under the bus in favor for the shiny new toy that is Jack. I wasn't looking at it from a BvJ viewpoint.

(See edit down below... I misunderstood. I was talking about the writers in my criticism above - not the fans. I thought you were talking about both the fans and the writers... Sorry about the misunderstanding.)

As for the bolded - Oh, I know... but any criticism of the writers of this nature has to go here in this thread...

Besides in terms of Benny, I thought that Dean was also somewhat trashed - to a lesser extent, but still it wasn't pretty - to woobify Benny. That Dean would just blow Benny off because Sam said so - to me - was not what Dean's character should do to a friend... but it was done to woobify Benny and make him look more sympathetic. Sorry, but in my opinion Dean is much more loyal than that, and screw you writers for saying otherwise.

Quote

I get your frustration as you've mentioned how annoyed you've been with fandom in regards to seasons 8 & 9

I don't think I've mentioned being annoyed with fandom during that time... if it came across that way, I apologize. I remember fandom where I posted to be decidedly anti-Sam during those seasons, but I wasn't really annoyed by it. I was a bit disheartened, but I gave as good as I got when I posted, so I wasn't really annoyed.

I was way way way more annoyed with the writers for creating - or at least widening - the entire rift in the first place. I think that was their intention, and screw them for that in my opinion.

Edited to add: I think I just realized that you were talking about the fandom? Sorry about that - I was talking about the writers... they were the ones who trashed Sam. I didn't mean to imply the fans did that. And if they did, it was because the writers caused that. So I blame the writers.

Edited April 19, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

31 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

From The Raid on I felt he was trying to turn the series into the Sam show.

Heh - whereas I thought Dabb was trying to turn Sam into someone else starting with "The Raid"... therefore less the Sam show and more what I (as in he, Dabb) think Sam should be like, forget what Sam is actually like... And then proceeded to undermine even that.

I can see where the "glory episodes" would be annoying, but after the Sam drought that was seasons 8-10 - I mean they were really bad - I can see why Dabb thought a few were needed. Besides giving Sam a few "glory episodes" I guess is supposed to take away the sting of having him screw up so badly on the big things? Didn't really help for me, but hey...

Edited April 19, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Pondlass1]

Has anyone clocked the amount of Michael Dean screen time we got for the whole season?  It has to be around 15-20 minutes in total.  Both Demon Dean and Purgatory Dean got longer I think - and Mark of Cain Dean the longest of all (still hoping there's traces left).

Jensen was cheated out of a character we waited ten years to see. And then when he did surface - he really did nothing.  His monster army went nowhere.

What a waste.  I'm still seething for Jensen. 😡

[catrox14]

On 4/18/2019 at 10:02 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh - whereas I thought Dabb was trying to turn Sam into someone else starting with "The Raid"... therefore less the Sam show and more what I (as in he, Dabb) think Sam should be like, forget what Sam is actually like... And then proceeded to undermine even that.

I can see where the "glory episodes" would be annoying, but after the Sam drought that was seasons 8-10 - I mean they were really bad - I can see why Dabb thought a few were needed. Besides giving Sam a few "glory episodes" I guess is supposed to take away the sting of having him screw up so badly on the big things? Didn't really help for me, but hey...

I agree they turned Sam into someone he isn't. Yet Dabb clearly wants him to seen as heroic, badass,  empathetic, and good. He sees Sam as the poor guy who got saddled with a crappy family and he just can't shake these assholes, which is being pounded into the ground with every questionable action that he does that he frowns and sighs whilst he's doing it. And worse, whenever he goes along with something someone else does, he scolds them, or throws a bitch face at them, which is mostly but not solely Dean.

Dabb has turned Sam ino a cardboard cutout of a hero, and unfortunately IMO, something has happened with Jared's acting or he's playing exactly what is on the page and it's coming across as so inauthentic as to be unpleasant for this viewer.

I was rewatching seasons 2,3,4 wherein Sam had layers to him. He had personality. So either he was better written allowing Jared to play it better, or Jared layered the performance to give Sam some personality. Even under Carver, whilst Sam took some hits writing wise, Jared brought authencity to the work. Under Dabb, that has gone away. I mean I never liked Sam in s1 and come to think of it, s1 Sam was my least favorite until Dabb got control of the show. An the irony, is that I think Dabb fully believes he's doing right by Sam.

[Res]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I agree they turned Sam into someone he isn't. Yet Dabb clearly wants him to seen as heroic, badass,  empathetic, and good. He sees Sam as the poor guy who got saddled with a crappy family and he just can't shake these assholes, which is being pounded into the ground with every questionable action that he does that he frowns and sighs whilst he's doing it. And worse, whenever he goes along with something someone else does, he scolds them, or throws a bitch face at them, which is mostly but not solely Dean.

Dabb has turned Sam ino a cardboard cutout of a hero, and unfortunately IMO, something has happened with Jared's acting or he's playing exactly what is on the page and it's coming across as so inauthentic as to be unpleasant for this viewer.

I was rewatching seasons 2,3,4 wherein Sam had layers to him. He had personality. So either he was better written allowing Jared to play it better, or Jared layered the performance to give Sam some personality. Even under Carver, whilst Sam took some hits writing wise, Jared brought authencity to the work. Under Dabb, that has gone away. I mean I never liked Sam in s1 and come to think of it, s1 Sam was my least favorite until Dabb got control of the show. An the irony, is that I think Dabb fully believes he's doing right by Sam.

I completely agree.

The only Sam I've ever liked was S2 but that's just me. At this point, thanks to so many writers and showrunners trying to sell the "awesomeness" of Sam to me without actually showing me it, I just don't care about the character anymore and kind of wish him off my screen most of the time. But that is an improvement from actively hating him and wishing he was under Alistair's blade as I have in some seasons so there's that.

The other problem with the way they write Sam is that he's so inconsistent I can take anything he says or does with any weight because the next writer is more than likely going to take everything back the other way next episode. Like his commitment to hunting, whether he backs this play or not, he flutters about like the wind and is as wishy-washy as Bella when it comes to Edward and what's his face, IMO. 

I think they do that because they cannot write drama without the manufactured brother wangst but that really ruins, IMO, any real credibility in Sam and makes me, as a viewer, wonder why Dean should ever trust him when Sam cannot be counted on to stick to any consistency. In a way, Jack's current story is a partial repeat of Sam's S4 where he was powering up and Jack's Dumha was Sam's Ruby. 

The problem with this series as a whole, IMO, and a large reason behind a lot of the character assassinations is that they really didn't allow either character to REALLY grow for any length of time because it would have "messed up" with their "formula" for their show. They didn't take risks so there was nothing left create drama with except the brothers. Sam's characterization took the brunt of that decision because he was younger, less set in his ways and the reluctant hero of the series. 

All IMO of course.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Yet Dabb clearly wants him to seen as heroic, badass,  empathetic, and good. He sees Sam as the poor guy who got saddled with a crappy family and he just can't shake these assholes, which is being pounded into the ground with every questionable action that he does that he frowns and sighs whilst he's doing it.

This would make more sense if Dabb was actually showing Sam this way, but he isn't, in my opinion. If he really wanted Sam to be a leader, why didn't he show Sam as one? If he wanted Sam to be badass and heroic why have Sam get constantly knocked down on hunts and be fairly easily killed by human Nick? If he wanted Sam to be "empathetic" then why have him easily kill the BMoL? If he wants Sam to be good, why have him almost always make the wrong choice? Why have him not listen to his brother and put the world at risk for selfish reasons?

Whereas you see the above, I see writers who want us to see Dean as the one who is put upon. Poor Dean who is always right, but no one ever listens to him. Things would not go to hell in a handbasket if only Sam and Castiel listened to Dean. What actually happens on screen supports this time and again, in my opinion as Dean is almost always right in the end and is almost always the one who saves the day. The surface "praise" for Sam is just an excuse in my opinion... like Carver saying he was trying to show Sam as "mature" when what he was actually showing was Sam the "bad" brother with awesome Benny in contrast.

In my opinion, the writers have not cared much about Sam's characterization since season 8. If the plot can be forwarded by sabotaging or ignoring Sam's characterization, they'll do it more often than not. They'll throw Sam/Jared a bone by giving him something juicy for a half a season - like the beginning of season 9 and season 10 or the promise of a more independent "leader" Sam, but it's almost always taken away after the plot unfolds that Sam is wrong, wrong, wrong every time and really he should've just done what big brother Dean said, and all would have been fine.

And the narrative supports that in so many ways. Even when Dean makes a supposed questionable decision - and there have been many under Carver and Dabb - it's always turned around that that decision was right in the end. Dean's bad decisions are white-washed and have good results rather than bad ones. Any bad results - like Dean becoming a demon - are lessened by having other characters - usually Sam - do worse stuff. Dean's almost always right and almost always saves the day. If Sam does anything to try and upset that formula - like in season 10 - he's smacked down by starting an apocalypse and having God himself declare that he is the problem. All of the heavy players - God, Death, Michael, even that medusa monster - look to and speak with Dean... for me the real indicator of who the writers feel is the important brother.

For me, the Sam "praise" is just surface stuff and is just an excuse to have Sam be wrong and to show Dean as the put upon brother that doesn't get enough respect and that no one listens to. It's an excuse to make Sam say and do whatever the writer of the day wants to get across, who cares if it makes sense or not or conflicts with previous messages or characterization. But that's okay, because plot-wise Sam is no longer important and hasn't been for a long, long time. So they don't care.

Edited April 20, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Res said:

The other problem with the way they write Sam is that he's so inconsistent I can take anything he says or does with any weight because the next writer is more than likely going to take everything back the other way next episode. Like his commitment to hunting, whether he backs this play or not, he flutters about like the wind and is as wishy-washy as Bella when it comes to Edward and what's his face, IMO. 

For me, Carver started that. Sam was fairly consistently on the "what we do is important, we didn't miss anything" train since mid season 2 all the way through season 7. Carver was the one who decided to drag Sam back to season 1 characterization with little reasoning or explanation... and he didn't even try to do it convincingly. I mean he could have at least made Sam try to be a lawyer or do research for a law firm or something scientific or even in Sam's wheelhouse... that Carver made Sam a handyman - who worked with mechanical machinery - shows me Carver could've cared less about working that storyline around Sam's character rather than shoving Sam into it for angst purposes and to highlight his shiny new original character, Benny.

As I talked about above, it wasn't just that. Carver did a bunch of things to Sam's character that either dragged Sam back to season 1 or just made stuff up - like Sam's wanting to kill Benny - which just came flying out of nowhere based on Sam's previous behavior, because it made supposedly good angst (and in the case of Sam wanting to kill Benny, garnered sympathy for Benny).

So I blame Sam's character inconsistency on Carver and that era of writers. They declared open season on Sam's characterization, so he could easily be manipulated for whatever plot purpose they wanted at the time.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Even under Carver, whilst Sam took some hits writing wise, Jared brought authencity to the work.

I kind of wish he hadn't actually, because Carver seemed intent on damaging Sam's character for whatever reason (usually to make his pets look better, in my opinion), so I would rather that Jared had played Sam with less layers by going against whatever hatchet job Carver apparently wanted for Sam. I, of course, don't know, but I like to imagine that Carver sold it to Jared as much better than it actually turned out to be in the end... which turned out to be just the first variation of Dean was right and all Sam really needed was to listen to Dean and to have Dean's approval... actually helping people, and the feeling of good Sam used to get from that - nah, it's All. About. Dean. (for Sam - and vica versa for Dean... Carver's message was screwed up, in my opinion.)

That the Amelia story and Sam's character "transplant" weren't all in Sam's head and/or that Sam hadn't had a breakdown, I will never forgive Carver for... and it's sad, because before he became show runner, he wrote some of my favorite Sam episodes. But I have no idea now whether to take those favorite episodes as Carver actually liking the character of Sam or just biding his time until the time that he could turn Sam into a jerk, because that's who he actually thought that Sam was.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Res said:

The only Sam I've ever liked was S2 but that's just me. At this point, thanks to so many writers and showrunners trying to sell the "awesomeness" of Sam to me without actually showing me it, I just don't care about the character anymore and kind of wish him off my screen most of the time.

This is exactly how I feel about Sam also.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Bitter Spoilers" thread:

51 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The problem for me is that they always *do* pull something out of their asses to make killing (whoever) unnecessary.  So that always makes Dean look like the unreasonable, kill-crazy, unwilling to look for another way but shooting first person, when we all can see that, if not for the last-second ass-pull it *would* have been the right thing to do. 

This is not just a Dean thing. One of the early examples was "Jus in Bello." In my opinion, there was no way that Dean's plan should have worked with no one getting hurt or even badly injured, but of course that's what happened to make Sam's considering killing Nancy to save the rest - after she agreed to sacrifice herself - look even worse and entirely unreasonable.

Benny - who by most of show history should have been a problem rather than a fluffy bunny - was made to be good, so that Sam looked entirely unreasonable for questioning him and wanting to kill him (which in my opinion was already out of character enough).

Same with season 10. Despite what the writers had Sam and Castiel say about Dean coming unhinged - and most of the history of the show before that concerning dark powers and what they do to people - they showed a Dean that was  mostly handling it, therefore making Sam's using the Book of the Damned to stop what should have been a potentially dangerous Dean look entirely unreasonable. And then had it start an apocalypse on top of that.

So, in my opinion, it isn't  just Dean they do this to. They do it often to whomever they feel like and for whatever "dramatic" reason they feel like doing it.

And apparently it seems to work, because when they don't do it - like Gamble in season 7 - people call it crap (not me. I loved season 7. *shrug*)

Quote

BTW and IMO, this *is* the "real" Sam.  He was always the one to do the hand-wringing and objecting to "hard" (ie, killing someone) decisions.  The problem is that they use it for Sam all the time now instead of only using it when logical. 

As mentioned on the other thread, I disagree with this. I think the writers actually started more with Sam being willing to do the "ugly thing" before they did it with Dean. The above mentioned "Jus in Bello" being an early good example.

Edited to add:

Oops I forgot about "Croatoan." I guess Dean was first - though interestingly, it turned out that Dean was right about that one. If he had killed the kid, the Sarge wouldn't have died.

However, Sam was at least just as consistently shown to take the same position in the early seasons after that.

Edited April 22, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

41 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I disagree. Sam was actually the first one to go there in the early seasons as far as I remember. "Mystery Spot," "Jus in Bello," "Time is on My Side," killing the crossroads demon, "Lucifer Rising," "The Mentalists." When he pushed the demon back into the person in season 8 to kill the demon. I'm sure that there are more.

You seem to be ignoring all of season 2, for example.  Lenore, Max, Andy, Evan (the guy in Crossroad Blues), the kid in Croatoan, the ghost in Roadkill and Madison.  Hell, Sam even talked Dean into sending Gordon to jail instead of killing him.  All those were supposedly "evil" ones that Sam talked Dean out of killing, or at least, got him to try to help.  And that's just the early seasons.  Even Dean said it himself:

DEAN: Are you feeling okay?

SAM: (sigh) Why are you always asking me that?

DEAN: Because you're taking advice from a demon, for starters. And by the way, you seem less and less worried about offing people. You know, it used to eat you up inside.

SAM: Yeah, and what has that gotten me?

DEAN: Nothing, but it's just what you're supposed to do, okay? We're supposed to drive in the freakin' car and freakin' argue about this stuff. You know, you go on about the sanctity of life and all that crap. (DEAN rubs his stomach uncomfortably.)

SAM: Wait, so – so you're mad because I'm starting to agree with you? (DEAN looks at SAM and exhales.)

DEAN" No, I'm not mad, I'm— I'm— I'm worried, Sam— (DEAN moves and sits down on the foot of the other bed in the room.) I'm worried because you're not acting like yourself.

And it didn't stop there.  In fact, other than the times he was under 'evil' influence (ie, Ruby, demon blood, soulless or half-crazed trying to save Dean) the *only* time he didn't give a potentially reformed "monster" the benefit of the doubt was Benny.  And I'm chalking that up to jealousy, not OOC.  YMMV.  

ETA:  the difference I suppose is that Sam believed they could be saved and wanted to give them the chance.  That goes for Lucifer as well as Jack.  And so he looks like the sympathetic, caring one, even if it goes wrong.  

Edited April 22, 2019 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

You seem to be ignoring all of season 2, for example.  Lenore, Max, Andy, Evan (the guy in Crossroad Blues), the kid in Croatoan, the ghost in Roadkill and Madison.  Hell, Sam even talked Dean into sending Gordon to jail instead of killing him.  All those were supposedly "evil" ones that Sam talked Dean out of killing, or at least, got him to try to help.  And that's just the early seasons.  Even Dean said it himself:

DEAN: Are you feeling okay?

SAM: (sigh) Why are you always asking me that?

DEAN: Because you're taking advice from a demon, for starters. And by the way, you seem less and less worried about offing people. You know, it used to eat you up inside.

SAM: Yeah, and what has that gotten me?

DEAN: Nothing, but it's just what you're supposed to do, okay? We're supposed to drive in the freakin' car and freakin' argue about this stuff. You know, you go on about the sanctity of life and all that crap. (DEAN rubs his stomach uncomfortably.)

SAM: Wait, so – so you're mad because I'm starting to agree with you? (DEAN looks at SAM and exhales.)

DEAN" No, I'm not mad, I'm— I'm— I'm worried, Sam— (DEAN moves and sits down on the foot of the other bed in the room.) I'm worried because you're not acting like yourself.

And it didn't stop there.  In fact, other than the times he was under 'evil' influence (ie, Ruby, demon blood, soulless or half-crazed trying to save Dean) the *only* time he didn't give a potentially reformed "monster" the benefit of the doubt was Benny.  And I'm chalking that up to jealousy, not OOC.  YMMV.  

This entire post is spot on. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

You seem to be ignoring all of season 2, for example.  Lenore, Max, Andy, Evan (the guy in Crossroad Blues), the kid in Croatoan, the ghost in Roadkill and Madison.  Hell, Sam even talked Dean into sending Gordon to jail instead of killing him.  All those were supposedly "evil" ones that Sam talked Dean out of killing, or at least, got him to try to help.  And that's just the early seasons.  Even Dean said it himself:

A lot of those were monsters. I was more thinking humans. I forgot about Max and Andy. And Dean wasn't going to kill Evan. I remembered the kid in Croatoan later - and Dean was right about him, too. He was also right about Max.

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And I'm chalking that up to jealousy, not OOC.  YMMV.

For me, the jealousy was the out of character behavior. When before did Sam show that kind of jealousy concerning any of Dean's friends? He forgave Castiel - after Castiel tried to kill him in order to influence/get through to Dean. Not a speck of jealousy over their relationship. And Castiel, too, also saved Dean when Sam couldn't, so I think the two are very comparable.

In my opinion, it was something Carver pulled out of his ass to garner sympathy for his pet original character Benny.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

A lot of those were monsters. I was more thinking humans. I forgot about Max and Andy. And Dean wasn't going to kill Evan. I remembered the kid in Croatoan later - and Dean was right about him, too. He was also right about Max.

Again, it's not a question of whether Dean (or Sam) is right or wrong (unless you're actually keeping score).  The point is that Sam always comes across as more sympathetic, empathetic and willing to listen (and willing to give another chance to those *he believes are worthy*) whereas Dean comes across as hard and cold and unwilling to listen to anyone.  Being right doesn't change that.  

I actually think Sam being jealous was a very human thing, and if he'd just acknowledged it (even to himself) so they could work it out, it could have been a very good character development arc for them both, instead of him coming across as self-righteous and OOC.  *shrugs*  YMMV.  

[FlickChick]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, the jealousy was the out of character behavior. When before did Sam show that kind of jealousy concerning any of Dean's friends? He forgave Castiel - after Castiel tried to kill him in order to influence/get through to Dean. Not a speck of jealousy over their relationship. And Castiel, too, also saved Dean when Sam couldn't, so I think the two are very comparable.

In my opinion, it was something Carver pulled out of his ass to garner sympathy for his pet original character Benny.

I disagree about Sam not being jealous of Castiel. Do you remember the scene at the end of "Sacrifice"? That was when Sam asked Dean who he was going to turn to again when he couldn't trust him (Sam) -"another vampire, another angel?" So, yes, I think Sam was jealous of Castiel when he was feeling insecure - he just didn't show it in the same overt way as he did with Benny. I do believe that Sam and Castiel have formed a bond at this juncture of the show, and I agree with you that he has forgiven Cas more than once. But I think that Sam often is insecure concerning Dean, probably a "little brother" thing. Of course that is when Sam isn't hopped up on demon blood.

[DeeDee79]

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The point is that Sam always comes across as more sympathetic, empathetic and willing to listen (and willing to give another chance to those *he believes are worthy*) whereas Dean comes across as hard and cold and unwilling to listen to anyone.

My mom actually told me about an SPN review that she read just last week where the reviewer said that Sam was "as always the compassionate, level headed brother" and referred to Dean as the impulsive hot head. TPTB are really making their intentions known with their core audience.

28 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I actually think Sam being jealous was a very human thing, and if he'd just acknowledged it (even to himself) so they could work it out, it could have been a very good character development arc for them both, instead of him coming across as self-righteous and OOC.  *shrugs*  YMMV.  

Agreed. I also have to add that Benny was awesome and I wish that he hadn't been killed off. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

You seem to be ignoring all of season 2, for example.  Lenore, Max, Andy, Evan (the guy in Crossroad Blues), the kid in Croatoan, the ghost in Roadkill and Madison.  Hell, Sam even talked Dean into sending Gordon to jail instead of killing him.  All those were supposedly "evil" ones that Sam talked Dean out of killing, or at least, got him to try to help.  And that's just the early seasons.  Even Dean said it himself:

DEAN: Are you feeling okay?

SAM: (sigh) Why are you always asking me that?

DEAN: Because you're taking advice from a demon, for starters. And by the way, you seem less and less worried about offing people. You know, it used to eat you up inside.

SAM: Yeah, and what has that gotten me?

DEAN: Nothing, but it's just what you're supposed to do, okay? We're supposed to drive in the freakin' car and freakin' argue about this stuff. You know, you go on about the sanctity of life and all that crap. (DEAN rubs his stomach uncomfortably.)

SAM: Wait, so – so you're mad because I'm starting to agree with you? (DEAN looks at SAM and exhales.)

DEAN" No, I'm not mad, I'm— I'm— I'm worried, Sam— (DEAN moves and sits down on the foot of the other bed in the room.) I'm worried because you're not acting like yourself.

And it didn't stop there.  In fact, other than the times he was under 'evil' influence (ie, Ruby, demon blood, soulless or half-crazed trying to save Dean) the *only* time he didn't give a potentially reformed "monster" the benefit of the doubt was Benny.  And I'm chalking that up to jealousy, not OOC.  YMMV.  

ETA:  the difference I suppose is that Sam believed they could be saved and wanted to give them the chance.  That goes for Lucifer as well as Jack.  And so he looks like the sympathetic, caring one, even if it goes wrong.  

It might be because I started in season 5 and backtracked however I found Sam's sympathy in season 2 disingenuous. He desperately wanted his own powers to NOT be a sign of something evil therefore he was sympathetic to the other psikids and the sympathetic monsters they encountered. He wanted to believe the psikids were not inherently evil and those tainted by the supernatural had a choice for personal reasons. It was a selfish desire on his part just like later on using his powers was all about proving he was the stronger one, the only one that could stop things.  Hubris and ego.. Ruby's seduction of him in text was to tell him that he was stronger than Dean... the real chosen one.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I disagree about Sam not being jealous of Castiel. Do you remember the scene at the end of "Sacrifice"?

Yes, I do, but that was season 8 again. Sorry that I didn't make my position clear. I was talking about Sam's feelings about Castiel up until season 8. My point was that Carver introduced this jealousy. It wasn't there that I ever saw before season 8, despite how close Dean and Castiel had been previously. Sam had other flaws: hubris, addiction, rage, vengeance, some self-righteousness, but jealousy was not - that I saw anyway - one of those things until Carver decided to add that too.

Many shows don't even last past 7 seasons, so for me, to introduce a character beat like that so late in the game of the series was out of character. And it wasn't even gradual. Sam went from not showing jealousy at all that I remember to off-the charts "I'm so jealous I want to kill Benny." To me, that came flying out of nowhere, and made about as much sense as Sam the handyman (as in: none). Least they could've done was work up to it, give some reasoning, etc., but nope the writers said boom! Sam's a handyman and boom! Sam's crazy jealous: just go with it. Sorry nope. That kind of thing makes me stop watching a show... which is what I did for about 4 months.

If not for the tonal shift in the second half of season 8, I would've stayed gone. I quit The Walking Dead and The Gilmore Girls for the same kind of characterization shenanigans.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I actually think Sam being jealous was a very human thing, and if he'd just acknowledged it (even to himself) so they could work it out, it could have been a very good character development arc for them both, instead of him coming across as self-righteous and OOC.  *shrugs*  YMMV.  

Sure if jealousy had previously been something Sam had been guilty of and needed to develop from. My opinion is that to just introduce a new - and ugly - character flaw just to make a character look bad and that he then has to "develop" from is a crappy thing to do not a good character development arc. Sam had plenty of "human" flaws already that they could've worked with. In my opinion, they introduced this one just so that there would be brotherly angst, not because it made any sense. It has nothing to do with me not wanting Sam to have a negative arc - I would've left the show long ago if that was the case. My complaint here is that based on Sam from the previous 7 seasons, I didn't think Sam being jealous of Benny made any sense at all character-wise, so it made no sense to me that he should have to have "character development" from a character he previously didn't have.

How would it have looked if they all of a sudden decided to make Dean outwardly jealous of Sam's relationship with Jessica, for example. Or instead of Dean being angry and hurt that Sam didn't look for him, they made him jealous of his relationship with Amelia? Sure it would be "human," but it wouldn't make sense character-wise for Dean. And I don't think it would have been a good character arc for Dean either.

I would have found it just as insulting as I found them doing it to Sam to be.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I also have to add that Benny was awesome and I wish that he hadn't been killed off. 

Yes Benny was "awesome." That was the point, in my opinion. He was written to be entirely awesome and without any unlikable character flaws. However, when that is done at the expense of the main characters - and I think that though Sam took the brunt of it, Dean got some also - I'm less inclined to enjoy it.

Much of what I see being complained about in terms of Jack happened previously with Benny also. Benny just didn't overstay his welcome - or in my case, didn't overstay it long. The main reason I'm inclined to give Jack a chance is that at least he has some flaws now and at least Sam and Dean came to a consensus about him. It all depends on what happens next how I will ultimately land.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yes Benny was "awesome." That was the point, in my opinion. He was written to be entirely awesome and without any unlikable character flaws. However, when that is done at the expense of the main characters - and I think that though Sam took the brunt of it, Dean got some also - I'm less inclined to enjoy it.

I know that you didn't like Benny. I did which is why I said it and why I'll continue to say it because it's my personal opinion and preference. You don't have to agree as I don't agree with your assessment about his character. With that being said I'd prefer to agree to disagree and not discuss it any further.

Edited April 23, 2019 by DeeDee79

[AwesomO4000]

23 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I know that you didn't like Benny.

Actually that's not entirely true.

The sad thing is that I did like Benny. When he was first introduced, I thought he was fantastic and interesting and I liked him just fine... But then the writers started knocking both Sam and Dean to make Benny look better. and I started resenting him instead.

If they had kept Benny somewhat gray, but Dean wanted to stay friends with Benny anyway because of his loyalty and their bond, and Dean was conflicted about it, I would've found that a really interesting story arc. And I would have sympathized with Benny as he struggled to try to be good to honor Dean. I would have loved that and wanted to root for Benny and wanted him to succeed and stay around.

For me it wasn't Benny the character's fault. It was the writers' fault for not trusting the character of Benny and instead trying to talk him up. Making both Sam and Dean look badly in comparison to Benny was not the way to make me want to root for him or be on his side.

If you don't feel that way, that's a valid opinion, but that's what I saw happening.

Edited April 23, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually that's not entirely true.

The sad thing is that I did like Benny. When he was first introduced, I thought he was fantastic and interesting and I liked him just fine... But then the writers started knocking both Sam and Dean to make Benny look better. and I started resenting him instead.

If they had kept Benny somewhat gray, but Dean wanted to stay friends with Benny anyway because of his loyalty and their bond, and Dean was conflicted about it, I would've found that a really interesting story arc. And I would have sympathized with Benny as he struggled to try to be good to honor Dean. I would have loved that and wanted to root for Benny and wanted him to succeed and stay around.

For me it wasn't Benny the character's fault. It was the writers' fault for not trusting the character of Benny and instead trying to talk him up. Making both Sam and Dean look badly in comparison to Benny was not the way to make me want to root for him or be on his side.

If you don't feel that way, that's fine, but that's what I saw happening.



I'll reiterate: Agree to disagree. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sure if jealousy had previously been something Sam had been guilty of and needed to develop from. My opinion is that to just introduce a new - and ugly - character flaw just to make a character look bad and that he then has to "develop" from is a crappy thing to do not a good character development arc. Sam had plenty of "human" flaws already that they could've worked with. In my opinion, they introduced this one just so that there would be brotherly angst, not because it made any sense. It has nothing to do with me not wanting Sam to have a negative arc - I would've left the show long ago if that was the case. My complaint here is that based on Sam from the previous 7 seasons, I didn't think Sam being jealous of Benny made any sense at all character-wise, so it made no sense to me that he should have to have "character development" from a character he previously didn't have.

Who did Sam have to be jealous of before?  When did Dean *ever* give any hint that he put someone (anyone) above Sam?  Sam always knew that Dean loved him, protected him (too much!) and would always be there for him.  Even his girlfriends were flings, not anything serious; but he knew about Jessica and was *happy* for Sam, not jealous.  

OTOH, if you're looking for logic--well, Sam was feeling massively guilty about leaving Dean in Purgatory.  And Dean, because he was hurt, wasn't helping, both by telling him he *should* feel guilty and pointing out that (a) Sam let him down and (b) Benny got him out when Sam didn't.  So it makes perfect sense that Sam might be feeling jealous, *if* he could admit that that was the problem.  If he'd said then what he said in Sacrifice--that he felt he'd let Dean down, that Dean had turned to someone else--well, things could have been straightened out a hell of a lot sooner.  But instead he attacked, got defensive and blamed Dean for messing up his happy life.  That's on Sam, not Benny or Dean.  

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yes Benny was "awesome." That was the point, in my opinion. He was written to be entirely awesome and without any unlikable character flaws. However, when that is done at the expense of the main characters - and I think that though Sam took the brunt of it, Dean got some also - I'm less inclined to enjoy it.

51 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But then the writers started knocking both Sam and Dean to make Benny look better. and I started resenting him instead.

Sorry, I don't understand this.   I understand that Sam came across as unlikeable because of the way he treated Benny, but that has nothing to do with the character of Benny, except that  it made Sam look bad because he *wasn't* evil.  He kept his word to Dean and didn't "drink" people.   Just because he's a vampire doesn't mean he has to be bad, and Sam knows that. 

Compare him to Garth and his werewolf relatives.  Even Dean finally got around to trusting them; not at first, but was willing to give them a chance.  So, BTW, was Sam, and much sooner than Dean.  And Garth and his wife were good, not "gray" or threatening.  There were "good" lycanthropes (Garth, Bess and her father) and "bad" ones (her stepmother and brothers); just like there were good vampires (Benny) and bad ones (all the ones he and Dean killed.)  So I don't understand why people would be angry at Benny, except that he hasn't given Sam any real reason to not give him the benefit of the doubt as he did with Garth and his family, and so Sam looks unreasonable.

And Benny did have his gray areas, much more than Garth or his family.  Benny was struggling with the hunger.  He had to keep calling Dean to be his sobriety chip.  It *was* a struggle, not something he was just gliding through cheerfully.  We saw him struggling with it--watching people at the funeral, having his fangs come down unwillingly and fighting them back when faced with blood, having to leave his family in order to protect them, and knowing that he didn't fit anywhere here--neither with humans or vampires.  How is any of that at the expense of Sam?  Shouldn't you be rooting for him as you said you would?  

So anyone can dislike Benny for whatever reasons they want,  but IMO he wasn't a Mary Sue or written solely to make Sam look bad, except to ramp up the angst of Sam vs. Dean.  I personally think he was a well-written character with a lot of depth, especially in his Purgatory scenes, and was very sad to see him go.  

Edited April 23, 2019 by ahrtee
clarifying

[tessathereaper]

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually that's not entirely true.

The sad thing is that I did like Benny. When he was first introduced, I thought he was fantastic and interesting and I liked him just fine... But then the writers started knocking both Sam and Dean to make Benny look better. and I started resenting him instead.

If they had kept Benny somewhat gray, but Dean wanted to stay friends with Benny anyway because of his loyalty and their bond, and Dean was conflicted about it, I would've found that a really interesting story arc. And I would have sympathized with Benny as he struggled to try to be good to honor Dean. I would have loved that and wanted to root for Benny and wanted him to succeed and stay around.

For me it wasn't Benny the character's fault. It was the writers' fault for not trusting the character of Benny and instead trying to talk him up. Making both Sam and Dean look badly in comparison to Benny was not the way to make me want to root for him or be on his side.

If you don't feel that way, that's a valid opinion, but that's what I saw happening.

I don't think Benny was ever presented at particularly "gray" beyond the fact that he happened to be a vampire.  He was presented from the start as an honorable, stand up kind of guy who happened to have a dark past(as a vampirate) and wanted to get out of Purgatory.  So I don't think they really changed Benny to make anyone look good or bad.  Benny was what he was and he was basically a good dude, who happened to be a vampire.  He struggled with his vampire side, but he was presented as someone who was working very hard at keeping that side in check.  I don't think that really makes him grey.

Edited April 23, 2019 by tessathereaper

[AwesomO4000]

I apologize for the length. Please see the bolded areas for the Too Long: Didn't Read crowd for those who prefer.

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Who did Sam have to be jealous of before?  When did Dean *ever* give any hint that he put someone (anyone) above Sam?  Sam always knew that Dean loved him, protected him (too much!) and would always be there for him.  Even his girlfriends were flings, not anything serious; but he knew about Jessica and was *happy* for Sam, not jealous. 

I disagree with this some. Sam previously couldn't save Dean from hell. Castiel did, but Sam didn't resent Castiel. He was thankful, even though he found out that Castiel was telling Dean that he (Sam) was "bad" and had to be stopped. Sam had a lot of reason to worry that Dean wouldn't love him or protect him any more, because of what he (Sam) was doing, and now the angels, and especially Castiel, were giving Dean even more ideas and seemed to be actively trying to turn Dean against him. Dean even told Sam that he believed Castiel over Sam. Sam, in my opinion, could have believably pulled the "you're going to believe/choose the angels over me?" card and been jealous if he was prone to that, but he didn't and wasn't. There wasn't even a hint of it that I remember.

Similarly in season 5, Sam had every reason to think Dean wasn't going to be on his side, and again Castiel let it be known what he thought of Sam and what Sam did (and Dean never outwardly disagreed with the things Castiel said). But again Sam didn't resent Castiel or act jealous of Dean's friendship with Castiel even as their (Dean and Sam's) relationship was falling apart. Sam owned his mistakes, not blamed them on someone else*** and he didn't demand that Dean not see Castiel anymore. Again not hint of jealousy.

Even in season 7 if you looked at it a certain way, Sam had a reason to potentially be jealous. Sam was right there with Dean, but Dean was in a depression over the loss of Castiel and Bobby. Sam had a reason to potentially feel insecure, because Dean was a bit distant with him, but Sam never said anything except that he wanted to be with Dean and that he appreciated him and wanted him to get better.

I just think that if they were going to introduce jealousy as something Sam had when it came to Dean, that there were multiple opportunities for them to do so. I mean if nothing else they could've had Sam at some point admit that he had been jealous of John and how close John and Dean had been. Something. Anything, but I don't remember a hint.

As I said, it was just portrayed as so strong, so fast - like it had been brewing or always been there with all this build up and that's why Sam was all of a sudden at "kill, kill!" stage. That's what, for me, didn't ring true and made it seem much less believable.

*** And no I don't want to talk about "Fallen Idols." For me, not only was that episode subject to interpretation, it was an anomaly that didn't represent Sam's opinion in any of the episodes before or after it.

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Is it the fact that he didn't start drinking people?  That he kept his word to Dean?  That's not a character flaw, BTW.  Just because he's a vampire doesn't mean he has to be bad.

Quote

And Benny did have his gray areas, much more than Garth or his family.  Benny was struggling with the hunger.  He had to keep calling Dean to be his sobriety chip.  It *was* a struggle, not something he was just gliding through cheerfully.  We saw him struggling with it--watching people at the funeral, having his fangs come down unwillingly and fighting them back when faced with blood, having to leave his family in order to protect them, and knowing that he didn't fit anywhere here--neither with humans or vampires.  How is any of that at the expense of Sam?  Why weren't you rooting for him as you said you would? 

Quote

So feel free to dislike Benny for whatever reasons you want, but I wouldn't say he was a Mary Sue or written solely to make Sam look bad, except to ramp up the angst of Sam vs. Dean.  I personally think he was a well-written character with a lot of depth, especially in his Purgatory scenes, and was very sad to see him go.

Maybe "staying gray" was the wrong way to put it.

And I did say also above that it wasn't Benny's fault but the writers' fault. I guess the best way to explain it is how a lot of people feel about Jack right now and how the writing seems to imply that maybe things aren't quite his fault.

I guess what I meant by "gray" is that Benny stayed as he was written without having the other characters - both Sam and Dean - seemingly making it much, much worse for Benny... in essence hampering Benny's progress and making it look like partially their (Sam and Dean's) fault that Benny might fail. Thereby putting some of the blame on Sam and Dean. (I remember quite a few fans on TWoP during this time putting a lot of if not all of the blame on Sam for Benny not being able to adjust.)

The writers did this in so many ways... the whole thing with Sam and Martin and taking away Benny's family support. Sam insisting Dean dump Benny. Dean actually dumping Benny. As you said, Dean was Benny's "sobriety chip," but instead of Dean being that for Benny and helping him - as would usually happen in the show with monsters who wanted to be good - Dean just said "sorry dude, I'm not gonna be there for you." (Aren't recovering addict's sponsors supposed to be there for them, not dump them?) My point being, the focus became less on Benny's story and more on how crappy Sam and Dean were being to Benny and making it impossible for Benny to adjust. In the end, they even had Dean ask a huge favor of Benny after having dumped him, as if we needed even more sympathy for Benny and more making Dean look badly.

There could have been so many different ways to do the story without making Sam "the bad guy" and Dean looking callous, even with Benny still being good. I mean, Sam being suspicious just because Benny was a vampire and maybe things were happening that looked like they could be Benny falling off the wagon was enough for Sam and Dean to be a bit at odds, but nope... the writers had to add on a bunch of unnecessary angst that mainly only served to make Sam and Dean look badly.

For me at that point it became less about Benny struggling and his journey and more about "poor Benny, he's trying so hard, but Sam and Dean are making it impossible for him." At that point rooting for Benny would be like going against Sam and Dean, because that's how the writers set it up. And I don't want to be thinking badly of Sam and Dean. I'd been with them for 7 years, so a writer asking me to like another character instead, because Sam and Dean are treating him badly, didn't go over too well with me.

I get that some people aren't going to agree, and for those who already disliked Sam, they would likely care less if he was made to look badly, and some can maybe overlook Dean being made to look badly, but for me, asking me to side with Benny rather than the two main characters I have watched and cared about for 7 seasons? That's just not going to work for me. And that's what the writers appeared to be trying to do with how they set up Benny's story.

Edited April 23, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I personally think he was a well-written character with a lot of depth, especially in his Purgatory scenes, and was very sad to see him go.  

I forgot to add concerning this that I agree with the bolded part... and I wish they had given us more of this Benny.

I would have been fine with whole episodes of Dean and Benny in purgatory as the A plot with Sam looking for Dean as the B plot. The story opportunities for Dean to come across monster foes that he'd previously defeated or had died and were now in purgatory were many and potentially interesting. (Gordon, Dick Roman, the vampire dude from season 1, Lenore, Madison, the vampire leader from "Live Free... ," ghoul Adam and his mother (that'd be some good drama potentially there,) or really go for the pain and have Dean come across Emma, his amazon daughter.) Benny could've been Dean's sounding board and helped keep him together through it all. The story potential was huge, in my opinion.

Sadly for some reason Carver didn't think that would make an interesting story arc and decided  instead to give us the "fascinating" Amelia and reduce an interesting character like Benny to being a plot point to create jealousy and angst. Lose - lose. (And this isn't something new that I'm saying. I had said the same thing during season 8 over on TWoP 9 years ago.)

[FlickChick]

17 hours ago, ahrtee said:

...having to leave his family in order to protect them,

The ONLY reason Benny had to leave his family was because SAM sent CRAZY MARTIN to watch him and Martin came to the wrong conclusion about a vampire kill. That set a series of things in motion that caused Benny to have to leave his family. And that, IMO, was SAM'S fault. If he had never sent Martin to watch Benny the entire scenario would have never happened.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

And that, IMO, was SAM'S fault.

And this is exactly why I disliked Benny's story.

@ahrtee above asked how Benny's story was at the expense of Sam, and for me, this is why. When a main character is turned into the villain of another, recurring character's story, in my opinion, that's not right, nor is it trying to do anything good for the main character.

I don't think there is a logical argument for how "Citizen Fang" was supposedly positive for Sam. The narrative was set up to show how Benny had a good, workable plan and support system ...and then how Sam destroyed it.

That's shitty of a writer*** to do to a main character unless the goal is to make that character a villain. There was no logical reason at all to do it - in my opinion - than to either make Benny look sympathetic, make Sam look badly, or both.

*** After that episode, I am sooo glad Daniel Loflin is gone. I can't imagine what his other episodes would have been like if not for his partnering with Dabb. Probably one of my two most hated episodes of this series.

Edited April 24, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

50 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

After that episode, I am sooo glad Daniel Loflin is gone.

While I think that without Daniel Loflin the Dabb co-penned episodes regarding Dean would have been so much worse. I'm still seething about Yellow Fever, After School Special & The Girl Next Door just to name a few. Episodes which all made Dean look like a dick ( literally stated in Yellow Fever ) or a loser which I'm sure was Dabb's vision since it hasn't changed much over the years.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm still seething about Yellow Fever, After School Special & The Girl Next Door just to name a few.

But for me, as bad as some of those episodes were,*** none of those did to Dean what "Citizen Fang" did to Sam. "The Girl Next Door" was even resolved with Dean being shown as right and Sam agreeing that Dean was right. "Yellow Fever" wasn't my cup of tea, but some loved it, and Dean did have some great dramatic moments in it as he worked through his fear (in my opinion).

The only thing "Citizen Fang" seemed to do was blame everything that happened with Benny on Sam so that Sam would be villainized. Later writers tried to walk some of that back by pointing at Dean's text message, but the efforts were lame at best, insulting at worst, and the damage to Sam was already done, and then allowed to stand as is, because "drama." (gag)

I also think that not all of Dabb's subsequent solo episodes ended up being unkind to Dean. "Hunter Heroiici" was referring to Dean as the hero. He wrote a good demon Dean in "Reichenbach." There was a lot of badass Dean in "The Prisoner." Dean got quite a bit of heroic stuff in "Alpha and Omega." And though the "worse than hell" thing was admittedly lame, Dean did also get to be badass in "First Blood." I agree that not all Dabb's episodes are good for Dean, and some are neutral, but there are a few that are pretty Dean-centric and good in that regard, in my opinion..

*** And "Afterschool Special" wasn't exactly kind to Sam in the end either if you really look at it. There were a lot of "what the hell?"  negative messaging details added in there for Sam's character if you ask me.

"Yellow Fever" also wasn't exactly kind to Sam. The way that Sam and Bobby dispatched the ghost could hardly have looked more horrific, and certainly wasn't heroic, so not exactly a shining moment for Sam either there, in my opinion.

Edited April 24, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But for me, as bad as some of those episodes were,*** none of those did to Dean what "Citizen Fang" did to Sam. "The Girl Next Door" was even resolved with Dean being shown as right and Sam agreeing that Dean was right. "Yellow Fever" wasn't my cup of tea, but some loved it, and Dean did have some great dramatic moments in it as he worked through his fear (in my opinion).

The only thing "Citizen Fang" seemed to do was blame everything that happened with Benny on Sam so that Sam would be villainized. Later writers tried to walk some of that back by pointing at Dean's text message, but the efforts were lame at best, insulting at worst, and the damage to Sam was already done, and then allowed to stand as is, because "drama." (gag)

I also think that not all of Dabb's subsequent solo episodes ended up being unkind to Dean. "Hunter Heroiici" was referring to Dean as the hero. He wrote a good demon Dean in "Reichenbach." There was a lot of badass Dean in "The Prisoner." Dean got quite a bit of heroic stuff in "Alpha and Omega." And though the "worse than hell" thing was admittedly lame, Dean did also get to be badass in "First Blood." I agree that not all Dabb's episodes are good for Dean, and some are neutral, but there are a few that are pretty Dean-centric and good in that regard, in my opinion..

*** And "Afterschool Special" wasn't exactly kind to Sam in the end either if you really look at it. There were a lot of "what the hell?"  negative messaging details added in there for Sam's character if you ask me.

"Yellow Fever" also wasn't exactly kind to Sam. The way that Sam and Bobby dispatched the ghost could hardly have looked more horrific, and certainly wasn't heroic, so not exactly a shining moment for Sam either there, in my opinion.

I could refute everything here with my own interpretation, but we all see things our own ways and it's all been said before.  Suffice it to say, agree to disagree with pretty much everything above.  

[juppschmitz]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

When a main character is turned into the villain of another, recurring character's story, in my opinion, that's not right, nor is it trying to do anything good for the main character.

Kind of like Dean with Jack right now?

[juppschmitz]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But for me, as bad as some of those episodes were,*** none of those did to Dean what "Citizen Fang" did to Sam. "The Girl Next Door" was even resolved with Dean being shown as right and Sam agreeing that Dean was right. "Yellow Fever" wasn't my cup of tea, but some loved it, and Dean did have some great dramatic moments in it as he worked through his fear (in my opinion).

The only thing "Citizen Fang" seemed to do was blame everything that happened with Benny on Sam so that Sam would be villainized. Later writers tried to walk some of that back by pointing at Dean's text message, but the efforts were lame at best, insulting at worst, and the damage to Sam was already done, and then allowed to stand as is, because "drama." (gag)

I also think that not all of Dabb's subsequent solo episodes ended up being unkind to Dean. "Hunter Heroiici" was referring to Dean as the hero. He wrote a good demon Dean in "Reichenbach." There was a lot of badass Dean in "The Prisoner." Dean got quite a bit of heroic stuff in "Alpha and Omega." And though the "worse than hell" thing was admittedly lame, Dean did also get to be badass in "First Blood." I agree that not all Dabb's episodes are good for Dean, and some are neutral, but there are a few that are pretty Dean-centric and good in that regard, in my opinion..

*** And "Afterschool Special" wasn't exactly kind to Sam in the end either if you really look at it. There were a lot of "what the hell?"  negative messaging details added in there for Sam's character if you ask me.

"Yellow Fever" also wasn't exactly kind to Sam. The way that Sam and Bobby dispatched the ghost could hardly have looked more horrific, and certainly wasn't heroic, so not exactly a shining moment for Sam either there, in my opinion.

Funny how none of the (debatably) good Dabb Dean episodes happened in Dabb's own showrunner time.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Funny how none of the (debatably) good Dabb Dean episodes happened in Dabb's own showrunner time. 

I think Reichenbach and The Prisoner were really good.

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The only thing "Citizen Fang" seemed to do was blame everything that happened with Benny on Sam so that Sam would be villainized. Later writers tried to walk some of that back by pointing at Dean's text message, but the efforts were lame at best, insulting at worst, and the damage to Sam was already done, and then allowed to stand as is, because "drama." (gag)

Except Sam wasn't villainized on screen.  He suffered no negative consequences for anything he did.  It was never mentioned and in fact Sam won.  He told Dean to dump Benny or Sam would dump him.  Dean did. 

The text message was more than just mentioned in passing. They allowed Sam to talk about how much that hurt him, and how it made him think of Jessica.  The even had Charlie say 'you ruined his life."

It was so not true.  Because Sam left Amelia before Dean came back.  And Dean told Sam in or out but make a choice.  He left it up to Sam.  But the show acted like Dean forced Sam back in the car.

But never once was anything Sam did brought up.   Sam handcuffing Dean to a radiator, siccing Martin on Benny in the first place was all brushed under the rug.  Dean was allowed to briefly walk away from Sam but he was punished for that when Cas went to get Sam and told Dean they needed him.  Then in the end Dean was forced to give into Sam without calling Sam out on anything he did to him. 

I remember Dean getting plenty of hate from the fandom for daring to see that text. 

IMO, Sam was more than painted as the victim.