“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Lastcall]

Random thought. If Dabb hates Dean so much and the CW wants a spin off, why don’t they just spin Dean off into his own show?

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Lastcall said:

Random thought. If Dabb hates Dean so much and the CW wants a spin off, why don’t they just spin Dean off into his own show?

I'd watch that.  I want spin off Dean and Ketch going on the road.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Random thought. If Dabb hates Dean so much and the CW wants a spin off, why don’t they just spin Dean off into his own show?

Because bibros and bronlies will flip their lids if Sam and Dean are not at some point together. I don't think they would watch a Sam only or Dean only show

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Random thought. If Dabb hates Dean so much and the CW wants a spin off, why don’t they just spin Dean off into his own show?

Because there's less chance of Jensen agreeing to do that than of him actually being possessed by the Archangel Michael, LOL.

Edited October 13, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Casseiopeia]

I think there was a drop in the second half because it was a boring episode.  Nothing much was happening.  The pointless demons in the bar scene that ate up way too much of the episode (Sam says there will be no king of hell and it was so?), three Jack pep talks, Bobby/Mary hook up, Nick/Lucifer (seriously?) and Michael/Dean walking the earth asking an odd question wasn't very riveting. And I'm guessing less than 10 minutes of the main season plot just wasn't as powerful as Dabb had hoped?  Some of us kept watching hoping that something explosive was going to happen.  Unfortunately a vampire army wasn't it.

I know this is BvJ thread but I think we the fans were the ones that ended up getting screwed.

Spoiler

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[Lastcall]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because there's less chance of Jensen agreeing to do that than of him actually being possessed by the Archangel Michael, LOL.

Absolutely there is no chance this would ever happen but as a thought experiment. They make Jensen a sweetheart deal, they do 13 episodes filmed in Austin. The main show stays on so no one loses their jobs. The only actor they bring over is Daneel. The main show gets cancelled after a season without Dean, Jared would come back in season two since it would be much easier without the commute. Yes people would riot because they were split up but fans are rioting now because honestly Dean hasn’t been on the show for years.

I know most people disagree with me but I believe a Dean only show would survive, I don’t believe the current Dean lite/no Dean show will beyond a final season 15 goodbye season that could be shortened even further.

[FlickChick]

52 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I know most people disagree with me but I believe a Dean only show would survive, I don’t believe the current Dean lite/no Dean show will beyond a final season 15 goodbye season that could be shortened even further.

I agree with you 100%. But there won't be a Dean only show because Jensen wouldn't do that. I suspect that both J's contracts expire at the end of S15, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a shortened S15 - about 10 episodes to wrap up the story. Unfortunately, I'm almost 100% sure that if Dabb has anything to do with the ending, it will be nowhere near what I want for this genre show that lasted 15 years - or an ending it deserves. I cannot understand how this man was put into the position to ruin this show in the way he has. Perhaps Dabb made a deal with Crowley to get the job and that's why he had to get rid of him.

[Lastcall]

I know a Dean only show will never happen, I would just love to see Dabb get his wish and watch his show burn while Dean’s show survived. Especially letting Dabb keep all the characters, all the toys ( except baby) all the crew and sets to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt how important Jensen/Dean are. Basically a real life bitch vs jerk scenario.

[SueB]

Dabb also said that writing without Dean was extremely hard.   I just don’t buy this ‘Dabb hates Dean’ theory.  He needs Dean too much. 

[Casseiopeia]

Just now, SueB said:

Dabb also said that writing without Dean was extremely hard.   I just don’t buy this ‘Dabb hates Dean’ theory.  He needs Dean too much. 

I think Peter Roth would have Dabb's head if he screwed with Jensen too much.   I can see Jensen getting his own show if he wants to go down that rabbit hole again.  But I'm thinking movies or netflix type series would be more like it.  A commitment to another 23 episode CW show probably isn't what he would be looking for.

[ahrtee]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dabb also said that writing without Dean was extremely hard.   I just don’t buy this ‘Dabb hates Dean’ theory.  He needs Dean too much. 

Actually, that's the whole passive-aggressive thing in a nutshell:  when you dislike someone but are forced to work with them (in this case, write for them.)  You try to make them look as bad as possible without doing anything outright that you could be fired for.  

I never used to believe in the "Dabb hates Dean" theory, but it seems more and more plausible now.

[Lastcall]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dabb also said that writing without Dean was extremely hard.   I just don’t buy this ‘Dabb hates Dean’ theory.  He needs Dean too much. 

I truly want to believe that and I thought he learned some lessons with 12 and I was amazed that he actually let Dean not only kill Lucifer but as Dean Winchester. I soured when it became more and more apparent that the entire reason was to get rid of Dean so Sam and his other characters can shine.

[Lastcall]

27 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think Peter Roth would have Dabb's head if he screwed with Jensen too much.   I can see Jensen getting his own show if he wants to go down that rabbit hole again.  But I'm thinking movies or netflix type series would be more like it.  A commitment to another 23 episode CW show probably isn't what he would be looking for.

All fantasy on my part and speculation that 13 in Austin would keep him around for years like he joked at comic con. They will never split them up. Though I think Dabb will kill the show, I don’t think he will be allowed to kill the characters. My biggest hope is they do Netflix movies and limited series and never let Dabb and company around the characters again.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Lastcall

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I soured when it became more and more apparent that the entire reason was to get rid of Dean so Sam and his other characters can shine.

And it didn't help with the "giving other characters a chance to breathe" comment like Dean sucks out all of the oxygen when he's present. I've seen multiple posts on Tumblr the past few days that are still incensed about that comment.

[ahrtee]

35 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dabb also said that writing without Dean was extremely hard.  

Oh!  That's why he kept writing Deanisms but just gave them to Sam instead!

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Oh!  That's why he kept writing Deanisms but just gave them to Sam instead!

Ha!

[Res]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd watch that.  I want spin off Dean and Ketch going on the road.

I'd watch the hell out of that in an instant and drop SPN, especially Dabb, in less than an instant.

[ILoveReading]

49 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dabb also said that writing without Dean was extremely hard.   I just don’t buy this ‘Dabb hates Dean’ theory.  He needs Dean too much. 

Maybe I could believe this if it wasnt' for that breathing room comment he made, and how getting Dean off screen allowed other characters to shine.

If he had such a hard time then he could have included Dean in that episode.  He could have written more Michael.  For all his talk at comic con how this was a big story it felt like an afterthought.  There was 3 scenes.  Two of which were basically the same and the last felt shoe horned in, like Dabb went, "oops I forgot something.  What do I do with Michael?  I know vampires. "   

If felt rushed because SPN vampires are complex.  They don't' just have one base desire.  Michael should know this if he can read Deans' mind. 

Dabb also didn't have to write an episode without Dean.  He could have cut  one of Jack's 3 pep talks, or Mary and Bobby making googly eyes at each other or cut out Kip's monoluing.  There didn't need to be focus on 9 different recurring characters. 

We could have gotten a glimpse into Michael's head and seen where he had Dean stashed and how he's keeping him subdued.  I want to know. 

I think Dabb was just saying that because I saw nothing to indicate things would be better if Dean came back.   Sam has the bunker running like a well oiled machine.  The AU hunters are even calling him chief and sir.  Everyone seems closer and more able to open up to each other.  It's almost like Dabb created this family unit that really has no place for Dean.

Because all I can see is him clogging that up.  If he tries to resume the leadership posistion he'll be accused of being bossy and treating Sam like a child.  Sam really doesn't need a big brother any more to look out for him since demons now run screaming Sam stops his foot and yells boo.   Sam now does the planning, the researching, the case finding, he's the motivational speaker, he questions most of the hunts and gets most of the scenes with guest stars.  Now he's the leader too. 

So this isnt' snarky?  Where does Dean fit in?  I see comic relief and sloppy eating.  How exactly did Dabb show that Dean was important.  Trying to find him because he's missing isnt' the same thing as being important.  I saw nothing in this episode to indicate that things would be better if Dean was there. 

No, I don't believe for one minute Dabb struggled to write this episode.  I think he relished it. 

The TL:DR:  I'd have an easier time believing Dabb had a hard time writing an ep without Dean if this episode wans't the Sam Winchester Power Hour.

Edited October 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If he tries to resume the leadership posistion he'll be accused of being bossy and treating Sam like a child. 

And Mary or Bobby would more than likely be the ones to say it.

[ILoveReading]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

And Mary or Bobby would more than likely be the ones to say it.

Plus 30 other AU hunters. 

 

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Oh!  That's why he kept writing Deanisms but just gave them to Sam instead!

I think Dabb wrote Dean into this episode.  He just gave all those lines to Sam instead.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So this isnt' snarky?  Where does Dean fit in?  I see comic relief and sloppy eating.  How exactly did Dabb show that Dean was important.  Trying to find him because he's missing isnt' the same thing as being important.

No, I don't believe for one minute Dabb struggled to write this episode.  I think he relished it. 

It's hard to write without Dean because everyone else is so sincere and caring that they need a character with snark (and pop culture references) to keep things from cloying too much.  That's why they've given those types of lines to Sam, and why it seems so jarringly OOC. 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Plus 30 other AU hunters. 

I can already hear it: "the chief knows what he's doing; he's a great leader" etc., etc.

[catrox14]

I can also see them thinking Dean isn't trustworthy since he said yes to their Public Enemy #1.

[gonzosgirrl]

Forevermore, when there is a B v J argument over whether or not Dabb is a card-carrying Sam girl, I will respond with '14x01'. 

I have no problem whatsoever believing that he is using his position as showrunner and head writer in the most passive-aggressive ways when it comes to Dean/Jensen.

Edited October 14, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
Extra words

[ILoveReading]

I'll believe that Dabb likes Dean if we get the equivalent episode for Dean.  He gets to show how strong and good he is at something beside just being Sam's bodyuard.  Every around him has to talk about it too.   Something that is about Dean.  Lets see several episodes where Dean is the primary reseacher and comes up with out of the box plans to take out some bad guys and Michael. 

But there is a better chance of winning the lottery than that happening.  If we get any focus on Dean it will be how weak he is. 

Spoiler

See the synopsis for episode 4.  Slasher flicks are supposed to be Dean's things but shocker, Sam has to think fast in order to figure out how to stop it.

Dabb made it perfectly clear-

This is the Sam Winchester show.  No Dean's need apply.

Edited October 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Lastcall]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

See the synopsis for episode 4.  Slasher flicks are supposed to be Dean's things but shocker, Sam has to think fast in order to figure out how to stop it.

Dabb made it perfectly clear-

This is the Sam Winchester show.  No Dean's need apply.

Plus it a Perez episode so it’s twice the Sam pimping and Dean hate.

[BlueSapphire]

Dean's already shown he's competent multiple times on this show.  I'm thinking showing Sam actually doing something relating to hunting and being sorta good at it must be really problematic or something.

[BlueSapphire]

8 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Plus it a Perez episode so it’s twice the Sam pimping and Dean hate.

Dean's gotten plenty of pimping over the years and Sam is a main character on the show.  I certainly don't see the Dean hate.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I can also see them thinking Dean isn't trustworthy since he said yes to their Public Enemy #1.

I understand and share the concern over Dean's role when he returns, because with Dabb in charge I have grave doubts it will be anything I will like. Honestly, though, in a way I think I would be okay with Dean being an outsider and an outcast among the bunker crowd. (Until of course the shit hit the fan, and then everyone would be turning instinctively to him for help.)

In fact, I would love it if Dean felt so unwanted and unneeded that he just left the bunker.  Anything to save him from Dabb's sad, stultifying vision of what the show should be.

Sam can stay in that sterile, windowless bunker if he wants, along with his uninteresting little gang of AU hunters, and Mary and Bobby can be his mom and dad, and Jack can be his little brother.  And he can give speeches about how he is the Legendary Sam Winchester Who Scares Demons and Saves the World, and the hunters can listen and take notes, and then he can hand out their hunting assignments to them every day.

Meanwhile Dean can stay in a different crappy motel every night, and drink too much, and get in fights, and live on the money he wins playing pool. And he can once again start hunting things and saving people, and make new friends and allies, and they will want him to stay, but he will have to move on. Maybe on a motorcycle, because he won't need the extra seat.

[BlueSapphire]

10 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I understand and share the concern over Dean's role when he returns, because with Dabb in charge I have grave doubts it will be anything I will like. Honestly, though, in a way I think I would be okay with Dean being an outsider and an outcast among the bunker crowd. (Until of course the shit hit the fan, and then everyone would be turning instinctively to him for help.)

In fact, I would love it if Dean felt so unwanted and unneeded that he just left the bunker.  Anything to save him from Dabb's sad, stultifying vision of what the show should be.

Sam can stay in that sterile, windowless bunker if he wants, along with his uninteresting little gang of AU hunters, and Mary and Bobby can be his mom and dad, and Jack can be his little brother.  And he can give speeches about how he is the Legendary Sam Winchester Who Scares Demons and Saves the World, and the hunters can listen and take notes, and then he can hand out their hunting assignments to them every day.

Meanwhile Dean can stay in a different crappy motel every night, and drink too much, and get in fights, and live on the money he wins playing pool. And he can once again start hunting things and saving people, and make new friends and allies, and they will want him to stay, but he will have to move on. Maybe on a motorcycle, because he won't need the extra seat.

Guess someone better get started on that fanfic, cause it's not gonna happen.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Plus it a Perez episode so it’s twice the Sam pimping and Dean hate.

I'm not sure that I understand this. I can see that there were maybe questions with his first couple of episodes, but the last three Perez wrote were very Dean friendly that I remember. The last two even had Sam damseled with Dean having an active role in saving him in one, and Dean pretty much saving himself in the second one, because Sam came running in but was pretty much useless. The third one of the bunch more focused on Dean - the western episode - than Sam as far as I remember.

But I could be remembering wrongly, who knows?

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I understand and share the concern over Dean's role when he returns, because with Dabb in charge I have grave doubts it will be anything I will like. Honestly, though, in a way I think I would be okay with Dean being an outsider and an outcast among the bunker crowd. (Until of course the shit hit the fan, and then everyone would be turning instinctively to him for help.)

In fact, I would love it if Dean felt so unwanted and unneeded that he just left the bunker.  Anything to save him from Dabb's sad, stultifying vision of what the show should be

The only reason this would make me sad is that Dean made that his home. He nested.  So for me, it would feel wrong for Dean to think he couldn't be there anymore.  That said, I understand what you are getting at here.  I would be okay if he took some time away for his own sanity.

[BlueSapphire]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure that I understand this. I can see that there were maybe questions with his first couple of episodes, but the last three Perez wrote were very Dean friendly that I remember. The last two even had Sam damseled with Dean having an active role in saving him in one, and Dean pretty much saving himself in the second one, because Sam came running in but was pretty much useless. The third one of the bunch more focused on Dean - the western episode - than Sam as far as I remember.

But I could be remembering wrongly, who knows?

You're not remembering wrongly.  You're actually using logic and reason.

[BabySpinach]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can also see them thinking Dean isn't trustworthy since he said yes to their Public Enemy #1.

Then someone had better smack them all upside their heads because they owe their lives to Dean's "yes," unless they would have preferred to be incinerated/enslaved by Lucifer. I bet that this little minor fact won't be brought up by any of the characters, though. 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I'll believe that Dabb likes Dean if we get the equivalent episode for Dean.  He gets to show how strong and good he is at something beside just being Sam's bodyuard.  Every around him has to talk about it too.   Something that is about Dean.  Lets see several episodes where Dean is the primary reseacher and comes up with out of the box plans to take out some bad guys and Michael. 

But there is a better chance of winning the lottery than that happening.  If we get any focus on Dean it will be how weak he is. 

  Hide contents

See the synopsis for episode 4.  Slasher flicks are supposed to be Dean's things but shocker, Sam has to think fast in order to figure out how to stop it.

Dabb made it perfectly clear-

This is the Sam Winchester show.  No Dean's need apply.

 

Baby, Our Little World, Safe House, Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox, First Blood, Advanced Thantology, Tombstone, Scoobynatural, and The Thing come to mind as having smart Dean who does research, creative planning, and shows how good and strong he can be.

Now there’s not a whole lot of fawning in my opinion but I think that’s usually disingenuous.   For example, Kip’s comments were just play-acting at Crowley.  I usually look at the motivation of the character speaking to see if the comments have real value. And I’m not fussed by one or the other getting more praise. I think praise and insults are pretty evenly spread.  

Edited October 14, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Then someone had better smack them all upside their heads because they owe their lives to Dean's "yes," unless they would have preferred to be incinerated/enslaved by Lucifer. I bet that this little minor fact won't be brought up by any of the characters, though. 

Thus far the narrative only said via Michael!Dean that Dean did it for love.  Now, I think they are intending that to be understood as love for Sam but Dean said he was also doing it for Jack/Cas. I can extrapolate that to love for humanity because Lucifer was now a threat to the universe.  However, I don't think that is what the show wants us to think, so it leaves it open to them not liking that Dean didn't kill Michael but instead let him possess him.  It doesn't make sense but I feel like that is where the angst should be.  Who knows though, TBF.

[Aeryn13]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure that I understand this. I can see that there were maybe questions with his first couple of episodes, but the last three Perez wrote were very Dean friendly that I remember. The last two even had Sam damseled with Dean having an active role in saving him in one, and Dean pretty much saving himself in the second one, because Sam came running in but was pretty much useless. The third one of the bunch more focused on Dean - the western episode - than Sam as far as I remember.

But I could be remembering wrongly, who knows?

None of bis episodes sticks in my mind as particularly Dean-friendly. The first three I do remember as utterly horrible, the ones from last Season are at best whatever. Tombstone was disappointingly lame for a Western-themed episode. 

After the horror show that was the Season Premiere and the utter dread how Dean will be treated writing-wise in Chief and King of Hell's Sam's world from here in out, Perez is certainly not a writer that inspires great confidence in me.

I think Dabb was probably not really jpking at Comic Con when he said Dean will never come back. Because Dean has no place in this new world where Sam is King. Other than maybe as a flunky and my much-hated humiliating comedy relief. It's actually unrealistic to expect Dean not to be some flunky now.

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

Baby, Our Little World, Safe House, Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox, First Blood, Advanced Thantology, Tombstone, Scoobynatural, and The Thing come to mind as having smart Dean who does research, creative planning, and shows how good and strong he can be.

Sure, there are some standouts during these eps but not are what I would dub The Dean Winchester Power Hour.   When I said Dean being smart, I want it to come with lots of on screen and off screen support.  I want the writers to pimp it out every chance they get about Dean's the smart ever.  He's even smarter than Sam.  Because that is what Dabb is doing with the leadership role.  He's acting like it was never Dean.   It was Dean holding Sam back.  I want the exact same for Dean.  I want a reveal that Dean's a genuis but he couldnt' concentrated on school because he had to look after Sam.  Only then will it be the equivalent

Baby- I found this ep pretty balanced.   The first half was more Sam focused and the second was more Dean focused.  There was no special pimping from anyone about how awesome Dean was.   I fact Dean pointed out how Sam's visions didn't come from God and Sam didnt' listen.  Plus, this was still during Carver's reign. 

Our Little World- I don't really remember any stand out Dean moments.  In fact, I remember Dean getting called a nasty word (I don't even like typing it) because of that scene with Amara.  Dean broke Amara's hold but that was about Sam. I want Dean to shine because he's Dean, not because he he's fussing over Sam.  Not to mention, Dean was later made to say he wasn't strong enough to do anything against Amara and no one bothered to correct him or give him any positive words of encouragement.  So nope not a power hour. 

Safe House- The episode where Dean got possessed and had to be saved by Sam. 

Advanced Thantology-  I liked this ep and I liked Dean's scenes with Billy but it doesn't fit my criteria what I listed above Dean had to be saved by Sam.  Jensen was fantastic this episode and it was nice to get a real look into his head space but ultimately that was dropped.  Plus, we saw that Dean wanted to give up and stop fighting. 

First Blood- It was great to see Dean actually remember which way to point his rifle without being reminded.   But Dabb made sure that Dean broke after 6 weeks.  Of course it wasnt' Sam.  Then they once again degraded his hell experience by saying that isolation was worse. 

Tombstone- It was fun watching Dean play cowboy but Dean is a marksman.  They stripped away that skill in this episode.  Although I'll be fair and acknowledge that they did this for everyone in that scene.   Dean still had to be saved by the sheriff later.  I did like Dean's leadership in this, but apparently Dean never was a leader.  To listen to TPTB, reviewers and fans, Sam was the leader they've been waiting for.  Yes, I saw a reviewer use that phrase.   So this episode it particularly grating now in that aspect because one again Dean's accomplishments and traits are being stripped from him. 

ScoobyNatural- Dean knew ScoobyDoo lore and that was great to see.  Despite the fact that Dean is supposed to be an expert in ScoobyDoo they made sure to remind the audience, don't forget Sam knows it too. 

The Thing- Yes, I'll give the episode credit for Dean being able to save himself but that scene with Dean researching, of course Sam just had to correct him.  Never in the show since they found the bunker has it ever been refered to anything but a bunker.  But for some reason they needed to refer to them by their Latin terms.  Capitalum (or whatever).  A language Dean can pronounce and has been exposed to since he was four.  Now, I dont think there is anything wrong with not being about to know what every single word in the world means (but apparently Sam does), but its not hard to figure out what that word meant from the context it was used it.  But nope, Sam had to correct him and explain what it mean.  So the writers just couldn't' let Dean have that moment without making sure to point out, don't forget Dean's not smarter then Sam.

Dean gets moments here and there but those are becoming fewer and far between or their dropped and ignorded.  Now we've had two episodes with OTT badass Sam.  He can walk off bullet woulds as well as send monsters running just by yelling at them.  So it seems like Sam is now, not only the brains of the operation but Sam has also replaced him as the brawn.   

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure that I understand this. I can see that there were maybe questions with his first couple of episodes, but the last three Perez wrote were very Dean friendly that I remember. The last two even had Sam damseled with Dean having an active role in saving him in one, and Dean pretty much saving himself in the second one, because Sam came running in but was pretty much useless. The third one of the bunch more focused on Dean - the western episode - than Sam as far as I remember.

I checked- Perez wrote

Tombstone, Breakdown, and The Thing

See above for my issues with Tombstone and The Thing. 

Sam wasn't' damseled  in Tombstone that I recall.  He might not have been able to aim a gun but neither could anyone else.  Sam just had a lot of focus with the whole Jack thing.  I don't remember Sam being that much of a damsel in any of those eps.  IIRC The sheriff had to save Dean in this ep too. 

Breakdown- Sam may have been captured but this is the episode that sent a message that Sam's heart was worth 500,000.  So even captured the show made sure to let us know how awesome Sam was.  Give me Dean being damsel that way anyday. 

The Thing- see above.  I don't remember much about Sam in this ep.  I think he did get knocked out in the dinner, but IIRC it wasn't by the bad guys.  It was by the Men of Letters trying to stop Sam and Dean.  In the end they ended up helping them.

So while Perez was a little better there were still digs towards Dean in his writing.  

8 hours ago, Bergamot said:

n fact, I would love it if Dean felt so unwanted and unneeded that he just left the bunker.  Anything to save him from Dabb's sad, stultifying vision of what the show should be.

Sam can stay in that sterile, windowless bunker if he wants, along with his uninteresting little gang of AU hunters, and Mary and Bobby can be his mom and dad, and Jack can be his little brother.  And he can give speeches about how he is the Legendary Sam Winchester Who Scares Demons and Saves the World, and the hunters can listen and take notes, and then he can hand out their hunting assignments to them every day.

Meanwhile Dean can stay in a different crappy motel every night, and drink too much, and get in fights, and live on the money he wins playing pool. And he can once again start hunting things and saving people, and make new friends and allies, and they will want him to stay, but he will have to move on. Maybe on a motorcycle, because he won't need the extra seat.

I wish you wrote for the show.  I would love to see this.

Edited October 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Lastcall]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure that I understand this. I can see that there were maybe questions with his first couple of episodes, but the last three Perez wrote were very Dean friendly that I remember. The last two even had Sam damseled with Dean having an active role in saving him in one, and Dean pretty much saving himself in the second one, because Sam came running in but was pretty much useless. The third one of the bunch more focused on Dean - the western episode - than Sam as far as I remember.

But I could be remembering wrongly, who knows?

American Nightmare where he couldn’t even include him in the story and put Dean in time out for half the episode.

Stuck in the middle with you to pimp up super, yellow eyed killing, Michael lance wielding Sam.

Somewhere between heaven and hell where Sam kills the greatest most powerful alpha Hellhound ever while Dean is in time out in the woods with Crowley.

I defer to Ilovereading for Tombstone and the Thing.

Breakdown where Sam is damseled  just to show how legendarily valued he is at auction (when the current regime would probably have The FBI agent pay someone to get rid of Dean).  Also, clearly a Donna episode.

I believe Perez is a Dabb hire in lock step with Dabb’s vision of supernatural.

[SueB]

36 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sure, there are some standouts during these eps but not are what I would dub The Dean Winchester Power Hour.   When I said Dean being smart, I want it to come with lots of on screen and off screen support.  I want the writers to pimp it out every chance they get about Dean's the smart ever.  He's even smarter than Sam.  Because that is what Dabb is doing with the leadership role.  He's acting like it was never Dean.   It was Dean holding Sam back.  I want the exact same for Dean.  I want a reveal that Dean's a genuis but he couldnt' concentrated on school because he had to look after Sam.  Only then will it be the equivalent

Baby- I found this ep pretty balanced.   The first half was more Sam focused and the second was more Dean focused.  There was no special pimping from anyone about how awesome Dean was.   I fact Dean pointed out how Sam's visions didn't come from God and Sam didnt' listen.  Plus, this was still during Carver's reign. 

Our Little World- I don't really remember any stand out Dean moments.  In fact, I remember Dean getting called a nasty word (I don't even like typing it) because of that scene with Amara.  Dean broke Amara's hold but that was about Sam. I want Dean to shine because he's Dean, not because he he's fussing over Sam.  Not to mention, Dean was later made to say he wasn't strong enough to do anything against Amara and no one bothered to correct him or give him any positive words of encouragement.  So nope not a power hour. 

Safe House- The episode where Dean got possessed and had to be saved by Sam. 

Advanced Thantology-  I liked this ep and I liked Dean's scenes with Billy but it doesn't fit my criteria what I listed above Dean had to be saved by Sam.  Jensen was fantastic this episode and it was nice to get a real look into his head space but ultimately that was dropped.  Plus, we saw that Dean wanted to give up and stop fighting. 

First Blood- It was great to see Dean actually remember which way to point his rifle without being reminded.   But Dabb made sure that Dean broke after 6 weeks.  Of course it wasnt' Sam.  Then they once again degraded his hell experience by saying that isolation was worse. 

Tombstone- It was fun watching Dean play cowboy but Dean is a marksman.  They stripped away that skill in this episode.  Although I'll be fair and acknowledge that they did this for everyone in that scene.   Dean still had to be saved by the sheriff later.  I did like Dean's leadership in this, but apparently Dean never was a leader.  To listen to TPTB, reviewers and fans, Sam was the leader they've been waiting for.  Yes, I saw a reviewer use that phrase.   So this episode it particularly grating now in that aspect because one again Dean's accomplishments and traits are being stripped from him. 

ScoobyNatural- Dean knew ScoobyDoo lore and that was great to see.  Despite the fact that Dean is supposed to be an expert in ScoobyDoo they made sure to remind the audience, don't forget Sam knows it too. 

The Thing- Yes, I'll give the episode credit for Dean being able to save himself but that scene with Dean researching, of course Sam just had to correct him.  Never in the show since they found the bunker has it ever been refered to anything but a bunker.  But for some reason they needed to refer to them by their Latin terms.  Capitalum (or whatever).  A language Dean can pronounce and has been exposed to since he was four.  Now, I dont think there is anything wrong with not being about to know what every single word in the world means (but apparently Sam does), but its not hard to figure out what that word meant from the context it was used it.  But nope, Sam had to correct him and explain what it mean.  So the writers just couldn't' let Dean have that moment without making sure to point out, don't forget Dean's not smarter then Sam.

Dean gets moments here and there but those are becoming fewer and far between or their dropped and ignorded.  Now we've had two episodes with OTT badass Sam.  He can walk off bullet woulds as well as send monsters running just by yelling at them.  So it seems like Sam is now, not only the brains of the operation but Sam has also replaced him as the brawn.   

I checked- Perez wrote

Tombstone, Breakdown, and The Thing

See above for my issues with Tombstone and The Thing. 

Sam wasn't' damseled  in Tombstone that I recall.  He might not have been able to aim a gun but neither could anyone else.  Sam just had a lot of focus with the whole Jack thing.  I don't remember Sam being that much of a damsel in any of those eps.  IIRC The sheriff had to save Dean in this ep too. 

Breakdown- Sam may have been captured but this is the episode that sent a message that Sam's heart was worth 500,000.  So even captured the show made sure to let us know how awesome Sam was.  Give me Dean being damsel that way anyday. 

The Thing- see above.  I don't remember much about Sam in this ep.  I think he did get knocked out in the dinner, but IIRC it wasn't by the bad guys.  It was by the Men of Letters trying to stop Sam and Dean.  In the end they ended up helping them.

So while Perez was a little better there were still digs towards Dean in his writing.  

I wish you wrote for the show.  I would love to see this.

Items in bold:

- I think Sam Winchester ‘leadership’ is a talking point. Not massive heaps of praise.  ‘Jared is # 1 on the call sheet but Dean has been the leader for 13 years’ is not actually all that awesome.   That is IF you presume the role of ‘leader’ is the higher value position.  

- I understand there may be some hyperbole in the bold but I don’t see what you want happening. Not because of Dean-hate but because I dont think the equivalent is happening with Sam and leadership. 

- The boys’ recent “PSA” on Dean’s absence was trolling extreme love for one brother versus the other.  Why would they make that “PSA” if Dabb was truly trying to push Jensen out?

[Aeryn13]

I think it's a given that the leader role is of higher value. That is why now that Dabb really wants to focus in it, he really shines a light on Sam and has given him an actual, almost boot-licking army.

It's also why he never has and never will acknowledge leadership in conjunction with Dean. Not in the show and not outside of it. When Sam mused on leadership with the BMOL, that scene was the time to acknowledge Dean. Never happened. He stayed mute for a reason. He never has been and never will be a leader for Dabb. Especially not now that Dabb finally made Sam king. This is the new status quo now. 

I do predict that the actual Dean is dead in terms of the narrative. What will return will be a weakling and a clown who easily submits to can-do-no-wrong-Super-Sam. And if he doesn't in his own, he will be made to.

Noone will call him a legend or an Icon, demons won't flee from him, the AU hunters would likely sooner spit in him than call him Sir. Of course their new God Sam will frown at that so weak Dean will be pathetically grateful.

Of course I also predict Sam defeating Michael, twice.

This Season is likely gonna be the very slow death for Dean that Crowley got writing-wise.

[ILoveReading]

28 minutes ago, SueB said:

- I think Sam Winchester ‘leadership’ is a talking point. Not massive heaps of praise.  ‘Jared is # 1 on the call sheet but Dean has been the leader for 13 years’ is not actually all that awesome.   That is IF you presume the role of ‘leader’ is the higher value position.  

This is definitely not the impression I'm getting.  I'm not sure what Jared's position on the call sheet has to do with this.  But if you mean he's number one so he should be number one at everything on the then Dabb fully agrees with you.  (if that wans't what you meant, my apolgies).  

  I'm talking about on screen character traits.  Sam should have his strengths but so should Dean.  I agree Dean's been the leader for 13 years.  But its never been acknowledged on screen.  It's obvious Sam is the smart one but the show never shys away from having people both on screen and off screen mention it.  Why is there always an excuse about why they don't do this for Dean. 

  But its like everything Dean has, Sam has to have too but he has to be better, stronger, and faster at it.   So why is there this sudden desire to push Sam into that spot despite it never being something Sam has really shown interest in.  Yes, Sam could do it in a pinch but its never seemed something he really wanted, until that sudden ephiany that he should be   It's getting to the point where the show is afraid to admit there is something Sam isn't good at.

I bet even the aftermath of Michael will be how tired Sam was and hard it was for him to keep it together while glossing over how Michael actually effected Dean. 

Spoiler

This is exactly the scenario the synopsis for episode 4. 

Yes, I value as leader as a high value postistion, and its obvious Dabb does too. 

28 minutes ago, SueB said:

I understand there may be some hyperbole in the bold but I don’t see what you want happening. Not because of Dean-hate but because I dont think the equivalent is happening with Sam and leadership. 

Yes, some hyperbole, and of course it will never happen.  The show can't even acknowledge the traits Dean has, let alone admit he's good at them.  Dabb will never say he's as good or better at something then Sam is. 

 

28 minutes ago, SueB said:

- The boys’ recent “PSA” on Dean’s absence was trolling extreme love for one brother versus the other.  Why would they make that “PSA” if Dabb was truly trying to push Jensen out?

This was Jared and Jensen.  They play well off one another.  I don't think Dabb had anything to do with that.  If it was Dabb, Jensen would have been talking about how awesome Sam is.

 

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Of course I also predict Sam defeating Michael, twice.

And Lucifer.  Plus, I see him vesseling real world Michael becasue Dean was too weak.  This is what the Michael storyline is ultimately about.  To show how weak Dean is.  Not how strong.

 

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

This Season is likely gonna be the very slow death for Dean that Crowley got writing-wise

Yup.  That's why that montage at the end of Regarding Dean felt like a last hurrah and a good bye.  It was.

Edited October 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

Show me one episode where Dean got what Sam got in 14x01. Just one.

In fact, show me one episode where outsiders praised, revered or feared Dean this way, that didn't wind up with him failing at whatever he was being revered for by the end of the episode. 

And if Dabb is the worst thing to ever happen to Dean, Perez is the second. Meredith started out ok but she quickly drank Dabb's Koolaid.

Thank God the network head sees Jensen/Dean's value, or I'm certain Dabb would have tried to write him out by now. It is certainly not unheard of for a petty showrunner to do that with a lead. Instead, he's just determined to ruin his legacy. And since the network only cares about money, not how the story is told, they don't GAF about reigning Dabb in. Unless/until ratings tank or Jensen rebels, Dabb can and will do exactly as he pleases. Unfortunately, I believe the end of the show is close enough that they are going to let him run it right (over Dean) off a cliff into the sunset.

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Yup.  That's why that montage at the end of Regarding Dean felt like a last hurrah and a good bye.  It was.

Uhhuh. Said it then, still believe it now.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Instead, he's just determined to ruin his legacy

yup.  He's turned him into that one note side kick that Kripke orginially envisioned.  Jensen can only do so much.

I can only hope he signed a one year contract because if he signed two.  This is only the tip of the ice berg.

[Hana Chan]

The problem, in my opinion, with Dean's absence there is a clear leadership vacuum for the human characters and Sam is rising up to fill that void. It's not meant to be an kind of statement on Dean's worth (or lack thereof) to Sam, Mary or anyone else. Not when their nearly every waking moment has apparently been to look for Dean. Not because Michael is such a threat to the world, but for Dean himself. Sam is driving himself into the ground and neglecting himself over worrying over what's happening to Dean because he knows better than anyone else on the planet what it's like to have someone joyriding around in your body and doing horrible things and having no way of stopping them.

So Sam is currently the defacto leader of the hunters because there is no one else to do the job. Even Mary is deferring to Sam because he is able to balance the big picture (fighting Michael and the daily demon/monster issues) with the personal mission of saving his brother. When Dean returns,  is he automatically going to co-leader? Probably not because he is going to have to deal with the damage that Michael's possession has done to him, just the way that Dean was running things for TWF when Sam was falling apart at the seams from his Lucifer damage. Dean trying to play leader when he's bleeding inside would be like trying to run a marathon on two broken legs.

I really don't get where this idea that Dean isn't of vital importance to the other characters, Sam primarily, comes from. I'm discounting Mary because I don't think she has a particularly maternal relationship to either Sam or Dean because of the huge gap in their relationships. But Sam? The guy who put himself on the line to save Dean from becoming a demon or who was willing to sacrifice his life to save Dean from the MoC (ending up on his knees for Dean to kill)? Castiel, who still claims a "profound bond" with Dean even after years? Their relationships are complicated and they all have conflicts and disagreements and there are times when  they are even cruel to one another. But that doesn't mean that there isn't real love and respect for Dean. 

[catrox14]

I have no issue with Sam taking responsibility for leading a new group of hunters.  The problem is that IMO, Dabb cannot resist trying to turn Sam into Superman!Sam.  It started back in Red Meat and he's not really looked back.  Dean is not being given that treatment, which if he was, I would hope it would be Batman!Dean cause I like him better. LOL

[ILoveReading]

51 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

he problem, in my opinion, with Dean's absence there is a clear leadership vacuum for the human characters and Sam is rising up to fill that void.

It would be one thing if it was just this, but it started long before this season.

 

51 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

So Sam is currently the defacto leader of the hunters because there is no one else to do the job.

Bobby.  He was the leader in the AU world .  There was also Mary.  Both were the leaders of the AU hunters.  Mary knows this world so its not really an excuse.    So they're sudden switch to allegiance to Sam feels out of left field.   Especially when they should want Michael dead.  They don't know him or care about Dean.  So why would they want to save Dean.  They don't know him from a hole in the wall.

The chief and Sir was over the top. They didn't even refer to Bobby that way.

Also since Bobby isn't our Bobby. He doesn't know or care about Dean either.  So why not have Bobby take that off Sam's plate by having him say he'll deal with their issues.  

Nope.   Not buying its just a temporary thing or not about poor poor put upon Sam.  Dabb didn't need to set things up so that everything was on Sam's shoulders.

 

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have no issue with Sam taking responsibility for leading a new group of hunters.  The problem is that IMO, Dabb cannot resist trying to turn Sam into Superman!Sam.  It started back in Red Meat and he's not really looked back.  Dean is not being given that treatment, which if he was, I would hope it would be Batman!Dean cause I like him better. LOL

Exactly.  The only thing left for Sam to do at this point is rip open his shirt and reveal that big red S. I guess that is where Dean will come in.  Sam will need his cape ironed.

Edited October 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

[mertensia]

Bobby probably still feels out of kilter in this world. Mary may not want to lead.

This really isn't a zero sum game. If random character says "love your eyes!" to one brother, this doesn't make the other have hideous, nausea-inducing ugly eyes.

Sam's leading because at this juncture no one else is willing. This doesn't lessen Dean's leadership abilities.

Edited October 14, 2018 by mertensia
Finish before posting!

[SueB]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

This is exactly the scenario the synopsis for episode 4. 

 

[pared down to keep the thread tidy]

This was Jared and Jensen.  They play well off one another.  I don't think Dabb had anything to do with that.  If it was Dabb, Jensen would have been talking about how awesome Sam is.

 

And Lucifer.  Plus, I see him vesseling real world Michael becasue Dean was too weak.  This is what the Michael storyline is ultimately about.  To show how weak Dean is.  Not how strong.

 

Yup.  That's why that montage at the end of Regarding Dean felt like a last hurrah and a good bye.  It was.

The “PSA” was on EW but Hollie Ollis (PR)  had to approve it. And she’d have checked with Dabb on the nature of the PSA.  And I suspect Dabb would have been delighted.  Because it’s funny how myopic the fandom can be.   

And my point is that If you value leader over follower, then Sam is less valuable than Dean.  And yet Dean was second cast.  He was not #1 on the callsheet.  Now the boys were cast toghether and are considered co-leads, but Sam playing follower tonDean, given they focused at first in the Sam role, is pretty unusual. 

 

And ‘Chief’ and following orders is NOT bootlicking.  People give me similar honorifics consistently.  I’ve seen bootlicking, ‘Chief’ is not it.  As for Kip -that was undermined as he was supposed to be emulating Crowley.  

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Mary may not want to lead.

Isnt that the whole reason she was planning to stay behind.  Because they were her people.  So her suddenly wanting no responsibility doesn't really make a lot of narrative sense.  She seems to be staying at the bunker.  What exactly is she doing to search for Dean?

She could very easily take over the AU hunters.

As for Bobby, he knew enough to make Trump jokes so it doesn't seem like his world is that different, and he knows hunting and strategy.  But the AU hunters are all coming to Sam.  Actually, they shouldn't need to because monsters in their world are so much more savage in our world.