“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Cambion said:

And as far as this ... Dean NEVER worries about himself first.  Until he is satisfied that everyone around him is okay he suppresses everything.   He'll bottle it up, we'll see everyone else get resolved, then we just might see what's going on inside him.

I disagree. There are at least a few examples of when Dean might say or even talk himself into thinking that he's worrying about someone else first, but in my opinion, that's not always true. Other times, he just flat out sees his own needs or his own priorities as more important. The fallout from John's death, the fallout from the deal, the fallout from season 4, his wanting to say "yes" to Michael, the fallout from Amy Pond, the fallout from Gadreel: those are just some examples, in my opinion, of Dean dealing with his own feelings in his own way first and foremost rather than dealing with other's feelings first. And I'm not saying that Dean shouldn't have done so... I'm just saying that, in my opinion, he did so.

And though Dean did bottle up his feelings sometimes, in some cases he chose to do so because that's what he wanted to do, not because he did it so that he could focus on others' feelings. And again, I'm not saying that that was right or wrong, just that it was.

For me, Dean is more complex than absolutes. Sometimes Dean does worry about others first or puts their feelings first, but that's not all he is. There are a lot of times he doesn't, and he has very varied Dean reasons for doing so that he's likely thought long and hard about - or conversely trusted his gut instinct on - and has various selfish or selfless reasons for doing so.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Sam was terrible, he wasn't believable at all.  He had no feeling of authority.  I agree with the person who said he came across as middle management at best and not particularly good middle management. 

They never explained why the hell the AU hunters were following "Chief" in the first place, never mind with such loyalty.  They said he was a leader, they tried to have other characters prop him up as a leader("oh you were born to do this"), but what they showed of him as a leader, IMO was a failure.  Just saying a thing is(sort of like the underwear gnomes 1. Steal Underwear 2. ????? 3. Profit LOL  in this case it's 1. We say Sam is a leader 2. ???? 3. Sam is thus a leader) without anything behind it to support doesn't make it real, it just makes it bad writing and characterization.  It can work in maybe Season 1 of a show when the characters and their pasts are brand new, but not in Season 14 where you know them, their backgrounds and heck in this case we've seen them grow since they were in their early and mid 20s.  And in no way shape or form was Sam growing into a leader.

They don't need some "hunter army" and IMO I don't agree that Dean never cottoned to the idea, he neither cottoned on or off the idea because he was never given the option in the sense of this very obvious ploy on Dabb's part,  but whenever there was a group, until Dabbnatural, whether it was a group of hunters or a group of strangers who happened to be caught up in some supernatural situation, whether they were young or whether they were old, of any sort of various sizes, Dean lead it and he did it naturally and he did it that even when he was far younger than Sam is now. 

He also generally did it under far more trying circumstances(as in everyone didn't just fall into place calling him "Chief" and being super loyal, he generally had to do something to earn their respect in some way).

Dean didn't show any aversion to doing that, that's IMO re-writing history, in fact he was...wait for it.... a NATURAL at it.  If there was group, he naturally became the leader of it.  So there was no suggestion he was averse to the idea of being a leader to a group of people.  

IA, Dean is a natural born leader.  And he has the referent authority that draws people to him immediately.  

But, as a retired military officer -- where leadership was my job -- I think Sam was coming along nicely.  Leadership didn't come naturally to him - he had a history of isolation or being a part of a team.  But he's also led when it was required (searching for Dean in particular).  Being excellent with lore and hunting skills don't automatically make you a leader.  But Sam wants to try and help out other hunters by sharing intel and leveraging the resources of the Men of Letters.  That's excellent strategic thinking.  So, although he's not a natural like Dean, Sam is (IMO) putting on the mantle of leadership in order to get his vision of a better hunting approach implemented.  I think it's the best strategic move which may allow the hunters to keep the new suped-up AUMichael experiment creaters in check and have a few more hunters actually reach a viable retirement age.  So, I think Sam is learning how to lead, has now had a major loss, but will continue to develop. I don't think his journey is over.  

Edited March 19, 2019 by SueB

[tessathereaper]

38 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Jack doesn't look up to Garth. He looks up to Dean.

IMO it's a waste of time for Dean's character to be doing stuff like that.  That's why he should not be chauffering Nougat Boy around.  Dean's the lead character, not Jack.  And it added nothing to Dean's character.  Thus yes, I agree with the other poster, Garth might as well have been driving him around, because IMO not only did it do nothing in terms of growth/revelation/show something new for Dean's character, didn't seem to me that Jack really got anything out of it FROM Dean specifically being there.  If Jack looks up to Dean and this is the reason we are given for why Dean has to be the one doing this, well then we should have been given something in that regard, something very specific to Dean.  Nothing really was there that anyone couldn't have done with the same effect.

[tessathereaper]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

IA, Dean is a natural born leader.  And he has the referent authority that draws people to him immediately.  

But, as a retired military officer -- where leadership was my job -- I think Sam was coming along nicely.  Leadership didn't come naturally to him - he had a history of isolation or being a part of a team.  But he's also led when it was required (searching for Dean in particular).  Being excellent with lore and hunting skills don't automatically make you a leader.  But Sam wants to try and help out other hunters by sharing intel and leveraging the resources of the Men of Letters.  That's excellent strategic thinking.  So, although he's not a natural like Dean, Sam is (IMO) putting on the mantle of leadership in order to get his vision of a better hunting approach implemented.  I think it's the best strategic move which may allow the hunters to keep the new suped-up AUMichael experiment creaters in check and have a few more hunters actually reach a viable retirement age.  So, I think Sam is learning how to lead, has now had a major loss, but will continue to develop. I don't think his journey is over.  

We didn't really see anything there that required leadership.  I mean you don't need to be a leader to make a few phone calls and follow some leads.  If you are looking for someone that would be seem to be least and most basic thing you could do.   And Dean shared info, since when doesn't Dean share info? And lore and hunting skills may not automatically make you a leader but Dean is an excellent leader and has those things.

And IMO I think it's a bad strategic move, more hunters(or heck anyone who seems to deal with the supernatural like the MOLs, etc) seem to get wiped out more quickly when they band together too closely.  Frankly it seems to work better when they are a bunch of individuals or very small groups, maybe sharing info as it comes along but otherwise going their own way and doing their own thing.  A very loose network. Bad things can happen then too, but IMO they seem to have more of a fighting chance.

Hunters IMO are not meant to be "an army".  And I don't think anything they've written for Sam in this regard comes even close to being believable as a "better way". 

I don't see it as better,  what I see is he's trying to do is make it more "normal"(it seems more to me like there is a part of him that is still hung up on 'normal' no matter how much he says otherwise) and there is NOTHING normal about what they do.  Trying to normalize just leads to disaster.  

Why should the writers give Sam yet another thing from Dean anyway(Sam finds the hunts, he does the research, he finds the lore, he does the witchy stuff-which used to be a bit more of a Dean thing, he does the tech stuff-which seems to have been completely taken away from Dean, the guy who learned how to hack from Frank and could overcome complicated alarm system and built electronic devices, etc, etc, so he should have leadership too?)

 IMO if anything one of Sam's problems was that he never really wanted to accept Dean was better than him at certain things(unless he could use it to guilt Dean into something like letting him do the Trials or getting him to go along with that stupid Apocalypse plan in Season 5, well then suddenly Dean's just the best, but any other time Sam is surprised Dean can even crack open a book), that's why he would always be like "I'm smarter and stronger, etc, etc" whenever he got put under a spell or sometimes just when he was mad.  Because it was so important for him to believe he was better/smarter/stronger/faster/we can rebuild him, we have the techno.....sorry got carried away there. 🙂 

But IMO we've been shown over and over again for years Dean is just a better leader, he's more of a natural, he handles it better overall, precisely because he very rarely even seems to be "handling it", he just does it like breathing and he has better instincts overall for it. It's utterly ridiculous to sideline a natural born leader like Dean to babysitting duty and nose wiping for everyone else, just so Sam can "learn" now to do something he isn't all that great at anyway and has shown next to no instinct for it. 

The AU hunters did not need a leader, hell they shouldn't even have been hunting in our world, least of all literally within weeks of arriving.  There was zero reason for them to suddenly start following Sam rather than Bobby or hell even Mary, whom they knew from months in their own world but suddenly abdicated all responsibility to make way for Chief.  Forget that, seriously Jack might have even been more believable because, again, he knew them, had a history with them.  Not that I seriously think Jack could have been a leader there, but at least he knew them.

IMO maybe Sam should really learn that Dean is just a better more natural leader than he is and find a way to accept his own place in the grand scheme of things in that regard, instead of always needing to be "the best" at everything and showing how he can make anything "normal".   

Edited March 19, 2019 by tessathereaper

[Aeryn13]

Thing is Sam got a clear aftermath story in the last episode. It was undoubtedly onscreen. Jack got a clear aftermath story, undoubtedly onscreen. Even Rowena got a clear mention.

Dean gets...nothing in the text. What he got was chauffeuring and comedy relief. Why is Dean not relevant enough to get a clear aftermath story onscreen but instead it's maybe something I can read into the text or not?

And lets not kid ourselves here, this was it. It's not like Dean's issues post-Micheal will ever be adressed. Michael (And Dean)  are in the rearview mirror of the Nougat story here. Tell me again who is the lead and who is the recurring character. 

[Casseiopeia]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Jack doesn't look up to Garth. He looks up to Dean.

Does soulless Jack look up to anybody right now?

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Thing is Sam got a clear aftermath story in the last episode. It was undoubtedly onscreen. Jack got a clear aftermath story, undoubtedly onscreen. Even Rowena got a clear mention.

Dean gets...nothing in the text. What he got was chauffeuring and comedy relief. Why is Dean not relevant enough to get a clear aftermath story onscreen but instead it's maybe something I can read into the text or not?

And lets not kid ourselves here, this was it. It's not like Dean's issues post-Micheal will ever be adressed. Michael (And Dean)  are in the rearview mirror of the Nougat story here. Tell me again who is the lead and who is the recurring character. 

Exactly. I'm tired of twisting myself into a pretzel to make Dean's story palatable to me in any given episode. I'm tired of depending on a look or a sigh from Jensen to add nuance what isn't in the dialogue for him (or anyone else regarding him). He is a lead. Dean is one of the two main characters. It's not right.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Exactly. I'm tired of twisting myself into a pretzel to make Dean's story palatable to me in any given episode. I'm tired of depending on a look or a sigh from Jensen to add nuance what isn't in the dialogue for him (or anyone else regarding him). He is a lead. Dean is one of the two main characters. It's not right.

Name me one show where they supposedly build up a story for a lead character like Michael and Billie with the books for Dean, only to end this in a lame anticlimactic manner mid-Season to give the entirety of it to a side character and then promptly ignore the hell out of the lead. Which show does this? Outside of Dabbernatural, that is.  

That has nothing to do with side characters getting episodes to shine or their own little stories but priorities and the ratio of lead vs. side character. Dean was the least relevant character in the last episode. Even the freaking snake had more of a purpose. Oh, I forgot, comedy relief to make the character look stupid. How could we ever do without this. Eyeroll. 

[Myrelle]

The only question I have left concerning the rest of this season is How much and how often and in what ways will Dabb and co. now find/invent to shunt and push Dean/Jensen aside in order to prop his pets in the remainder of this season.

It feels to me as if after being denied his spin-off, this is exactly the time that Dabb has been waiting for the most.

I'm mostly just sad about all of the lost and wasted potential of this entire season today-and because of that complete and utter waste, it makes this season feel almost as bad as S12 to me, which I was so fearful of going into it, even with Michael!Dean on the horizon and mainly because of all of the inconsistency that came out of Comic Con concerning the storyline. 

It felt to me then as if Dabb was looking for ways to get rid of the storyline before it had even started.

And I will never believe that Jensen is happy or satisfied in the least with how it turned out either.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And I will never believe that Jensen is happy or satisfied in the least with how it turned out either. 

I agree, and I think we'll know once the season is over and the cons get into full swing. He hasn't been so shy about letting his feelings be known lately, at least in subtle ways. Or, you, know not so subtle (see: the marionette fight).

Whether it's with TPTBs blessing (as I suspect) or not, Dabb means to have his spin-off one way or another, and IMO, his vision does not include Dean Winchester.

[ILoveReading]

What tells me this episode is "What you see is what you get" is that the writer clearly sees Deans' trauma as something he gets off on, otherwise why call it a kink?

They also found time to make sure we knew how Rowena was doing and I emphasize this "SHE WASN'T IN THE EPISODE" 

Dean was.  If they can take time for a guest star whose in 3-4 episodes a season, they could have taken time to do the same for a lead.   So nope, no excuse for me is acceptable based on this reason alone.

Dean was there so we can laugh at him.  If Jack looks up to him so much why was there no scene of Dean at least attempting to reach Jack.   The stupid cake scene didn't work at all.  I was at my moms the other day and she offered me a choice between chocolate and vanilla pudding.   I had chocolate.  OH no.  Look out world.   Cake choices prove nothing.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Name me one show where they supposedly build up a story for a lead character like Michael and Billie with the books for Dean, only to end this in a lame anticlimactic manner mid-Season to give the entirety of it to a side character and then promptly ignore the hell out of the lead. Which show does this? Outside of Dabbernatural, that is.  

The only show that comes to mind is Dark Angel.  We know what was happening there

[ILoveReading]

They aren't even pretending anymore that Dean is a lead are they.

[ILoveReading]

I knew Sam was judging Dean in that clip.

This is what bothers me about the character.  He had plenty of time to speak up if he didn't agree with Dean, instead of going along and then lecturing him later. 

So really just sit down and STFU. 

It seems Sam and Cas only wanted to stop Dean from going in the box because they were afraid of losing their punching bag and support system since neither of them really seem to care how me might be doing.

The writers really do see Dean as window dressing.  Even in 12B it wasn't this bad.

Edited March 22, 2019 by ILoveReading

[tessathereaper]

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I knew Sam was judging Dean in that clip.

This is what bothers me about the character.  He had plenty of time to speak up if he didn't agree with Dean, instead of going along and then lecturing him later. 

So really just sit down and STFU. 

It seems Sam and Cas only wanted to stop Dean from going in the box because they were afraid of losing their punching bag and support system since neither of them really seem to care how me might be doing.

The writers really do see Dean as window dressing.  Even in 12B it wasn't this bad.

And an idiot and someone who is scared of his own shadow too.

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

And an idiot and someone who is scared of his own shadow too.

Since when is Dean sacred of a corpse?

Then he had to play the victim and brought out the John comparisons again, while treating Sam as pure as the driven snow.  

Sam isn't mature enough to be a leader.

Edited March 22, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Res]

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Since when is Dean sacred of a corpse?

Then he had to play the victim and brought out the John comparisons again, while treating Sam as pure as the driven snow.  

Sam isn't mature enough to be a leader.

It's sounding like a good thing that I'm keeping myself from watching this one. 

[tessathereaper]

54 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Since when is Dean sacred of a corpse?

Then he had to play the victim and brought out the John comparisons again, while treating Sam as pure as the driven snow.  

Sam isn't mature enough to be a leader.

Exactly!  IMO Sam does that because he knows it hurts Dean, it's a low blow, a very very low blow and not remotely true.  The situations aren't remotely comparable.

Seriously Sam you are a 35 year old man, if you didn't agree with what Dean said, then disagree, tell Jack.  Do whatever the heck you want.  Dean didn't make any decisions for anyone, Sam didn't need his help to tell Jack the truth if he felt so strongly about it.  But that's typical Sam, trying to play both sides of the fence?  He lectures Dean so he can feel smug and superior but then just goes along with anyway because he doesn't really want to make a decision and have to live with the consequences.

And yes leaders don't go around blaming people for them not opening their own mouths and trying to claim someone else is making their decisions for them.  It's a relatively simple situations really, if Sam felt that strongly about it, he could have done it.  He didn't need Dean to agree.  It's not like he needed his help to rent a boat and get himself dumped in the Pacific ocean or that Dean would do something afterwards to screw it up.  Once Sam said what he felt to Jack, it would have been out there, nothing Dean could say would change it.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Seriously Sam you are a 35 year old man, if you didn't agree with what Dean said, then disagree, tell Jack.  Do whatever the heck you want.  Dean didn't make any decisions for anyone, Sam didn't need his help to tell Jack the truth if he felt so strongly about it.  But that's typical Sam, trying to play both sides of the fence?  He lectures Dean so he can feel smug and superior but then just goes along with anyway because he doesn't really want to make a decision and have to live with the consequences.

This is the same stunt he pulled last year when Dean wanted to go into the AU.  Sam agreed to the plan and later changed his minded and whined liked a toddler about being put at the kiddie table. 

Sorry Sam.  Dean didn't put you there, you did.

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

The series is seriously treading water.   They have to resolve the Jack story line some how and move on.

It is interesting that Sam has tremendous guilt over the hunter's deaths, but we haven't heard much from Dean about any guilt he may have.   No guilt from Caz either.

Dean could have overruled everybody and found a way to bury himself at sea. 

Sure, if it was the series finale. But instead, they painted his intentions to do this in the worst possible light  - suicidal, weak, faithless, selfish - and those are not DeanFan exaggerations, those are words and accusations used by characters in the show. So if he had gone with the plan from Prophet and Loss and done it, even to be saved later (since it's not the end of the series, and Jensen has apparently sold his soul to the devil and will never be freed from this nightmare), he would have been berated and probably disowned for putting Sammy and Cass and Nougat Sue through that. It didn't matter in Ouroboros that Dean was the possessed one, tortured from within for weeks, and forced to see Michael escape and kill everyone. Not worthy of a single word - the trauma was all Sam's, and it wouldn't have mattered if he'd taken that ride to the bottom of the ocean, either.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Exactly!  IMO Sam does that because he knows it hurts Dean, it's a low blow, a very very low blow and not remotely true.  The situations aren't remotely comparable.

Seriously Sam you are a 35 year old man, if you didn't agree with what Dean said, then disagree, tell Jack.  Do whatever the heck you want.  Dean didn't make any decisions for anyone, Sam didn't need his help to tell Jack the truth if he felt so strongly about it.  But that's typical Sam, trying to play both sides of the fence?  He lectures Dean so he can feel smug and superior but then just goes along with anyway because he doesn't really want to make a decision and have to live with the consequences.

And yes leaders don't go around blaming people for them not opening their own mouths and trying to claim someone else is making their decisions for them.  It's a relatively simple situations really, if Sam felt that strongly about it, he could have done it.  He didn't need Dean to agree.  It's not like he needed his help to rent a boat and get himself dumped in the Pacific ocean or that Dean would do something afterwards to screw it up.  Once Sam said what he felt to Jack, it would have been out there, nothing Dean could say would change it.

SO SO SO much this. In my dream world, I have Jared and Dabb at a table and they are forced to read this post and explain themselves. Because this isn't even all on Dabb - they have been writing Sam this way forever, and he is never rarely forced to own these things - and when he is, it's done in such a milqutoast 'I'm so sorry you took what I said the wrong way' non-apology, non-ownership way it makes me dislike him even more.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sure, if it was the series finale. But instead, they painted his intentions to do this in the worst possible light  - suicidal, weak, faithless, selfish - and those are not DeanFan exaggerations, those are words and accusations used by characters in the show. So if he had gone with the plan from Prophet and Loss and done it, even to be saved later (since it's not the end of the series, and Jensen has apparently sold his soul to the devil and will never be freed from this nightmare), he would have been berated and probably disowned for putting Sammy and Cass and Nougat Sue through that. It didn't matter in Ouroboros that Dean was the possessed one, tortured from within for weeks, and forced to see Michael escape and kill everyone. Not worthy of a single word - the trauma was all Sam's, and it wouldn't have mattered if he'd taken that ride to the bottom of the ocean, either.

Have I expressed my hatred for Prophet and Loss recently.  It's aptly named.  Sam profited and gained everything.  While Dean lost it all.

I knew this would happen the minute Dean submitted.  That Michael would get out and do something to make Sam feel guilty.  Now when it comes time to make the real sacrifice they have a reason for it to be Sam.  He'll feel the need to atone and once again the brother who has to learn a very special lesson it will be Dean.  There is only one person strong enough to take out Lucifer and Jack.  Our Michael.  So I'm prediciting Trial and Error speeches where Sam is considered the big hero (and the show will make sure to include in words) about why it should be him saying yes to Michael and next season Jared will get the Michael story Jensen should have had this season.  (This is my spec, not spoiler). 

Dean's only allowed to sacrifice himself for Sam.   He's punished if he puts anyone before Sam.  Even the whole world.

Sam is the chosen snowflake whose every move must be praised, especially since Dabb took over.  He's rewarded for putting everyone ahead of Dean.

How I loath Andrew Dabb.  There is no way its not deliberate at this point. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

My last hope now is that they will kill Dean off in the season finale and we'll find out that Jensen is only going to be in S15 in a very limited role because an offer was made to him(with a WB blessing) that he couldn't refuse.

This is the only thing that could/would justify(and that even in just a miniscule way), what they did to the Michael!Dean storyline after Nihilism to me.

Otherwise, it doesn't make one bit of any kind of sense to me and indeed makes it seem to me more as if someone running the show literally lost their mind, at some point.

I used to joke that Jensen made a crossroads deal for his perfect life (beautiful family, incredible looks, great job, good money). Now I believe it even more because he's doing his time in Hell (aka Dabbernatural). Those ten years went by quick, huh?

[tessathereaper]

I never really understood Robert Singer.  Jensen always seemed like he liked him, respected and got along with him, yet Singer has consistently screwed him and his character over.  What is Singer's problem?  

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I never really understood Robert Singer.  Jensen always seemed like he liked him, respected and got along with him, yet Singer has consistently screwed him and his character over.  What is Singer's problem?  

I think Singer admires (loves?) and respects Jensen, I just think he honestly doesn't have a clue who Dean is, nor does he give a fuck. I think he's a get-the-job-done guy, and his job is to get 20 episodes of TV done and stay on budget. Judging by his directing style, creativity and art are not his forte. He has never offered anything more than broad stroke, superficial comments about Dean (the muscle, not the smart one, etc). I just don't think he cares. 

[gonzosgirrl]

So Meghan-wannabe-writer, aka Dabb's minion, tweeted a long thread of thanks to cast and crew, ending with Jensen and Jared. The words are nice(?) and all, but it's interesting that she couldn't (apparently) find one pic that actually had Jensen in it. I`m shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

Edited March 25, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

Fuck Meghan Amanda @ megfitz89.

And her boss, too.

[DeeDee79]

29 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Fuck Meghan Amanda @ megfitz89.

And her boss, too.

This x1000. Jensen deserves better than what he's endured under Dabb's rule.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So Meghan-wannabe-writer, aka Dabb's minion, tweeted a long thread of thanks to cast and crew, ending with Jensen and Jared. The words are nice(?) and all, but it's interesting that she couldn't (apparently) find one pic that actually had Jensen in it. I`m shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

Pretty sure that's supposed to be Dean stuffing his face on the monitor it's almost impossible to see of course so the point still stands. And it's Dean, not Jensen, whereas the other photo is clearly behind the scenes with Jared and Misha.  I'm gonna respond to her. They should get called out on this crap.

Edited March 25, 2019 by tessathereaper

[FlickChick]

17 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

This x1000. Jensen deserves better than what he's endured under Dabb's rule.

And a little part of me wonders if he put up with it as long as possible because of the ramifications to all the people involved with the show, but finally the Dean/Michael fiasco was the last straw. Even Misha has been a "hang around" for some time now with basically nothing to do or any storyline of interest. So maybe they had "the talk" and this is the conclusion they came to - time to call it quits. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

And a little part of me wonders if he put up with it as long as possible because of the ramifications to all the people involved with the show, but finally the Dean/Michael fiasco was the last straw. Even Misha has been a "hang around" for some time now with basically nothing to do or any storyline of interest. So maybe they had "the talk" and this is the conclusion they came to - time to call it quits. 

In a video clip posted in the Public Appearances thread, Ruth Connell says that she knew they were talking about it - so it must have been something of an open secret for at least a little while. I'm sure they all came to an agreement (J2M) as Jensen said/implied in the announcement. I'm also sure that Jensen was genuinely super excited at the end of S13 - so I absolutely believe that his disappointment with the way things unfolded played a big part in this decision.

[ILoveReading]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In a video clip posted in the Public Appearances thread, Ruth Connell says that she knew they were talking about it - so it must have been something of an open secret for at least a little while. I'm sure they all came to an agreement (J2M) as Jensen said/implied in the announcement. I'm also sure that Jensen was genuinely super excited at the end of S13 - so I absolutely believe that his disappointment with the way things unfolded played a big part in this decision.

I also wondered if how expendable Dabb made Dean this season also played a part.  We didn't even see Dean in the first ep.  That had to tick Jensen off because now Sam is the only character to appear in every ep.  Also it was clear he wasn't needed in the bunker because nothing changed after he got back and it ran like a well oiled machine when he was gone.

I also saw a tweet, that before the season started Dabb and Jared had a sit down dinner.  (Take with a grain of salt, not sure of source) but if true that is the ultimate form of disrespect because he blew Jensen off.

Edited March 26, 2019 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I also saw a tweet, that before the season started Dabb and Jared had a sit down dinner.  (Take with a grain of salt, not sure of source) but if true that is the ultimate form of disrespect because he blew Jensen off.

Wow. That's really fucked up. As you said considering that fact that Dabb blew Jensen off when he asked for feedback for Micheal/Dean it's really shitty that he will cozy up to one lead while disregarding the other one. I'm sad to see Dean go but I'm happy that Jensen can move on from this bullshit.

[7kstar]

I think when they both started saying when the show ends years from now it was the first sign.

I know they wanted Supernatural to run longer than Smallville.  And I could see both wanting to keep going for the crew.

I know my friends know I want to retire from teaching and I think I've slipped and some students know.  

Both went longer than they had planned, 10 years longer.  So I do think Jensen had reached his limit.  He just didn't seem pumped about Michael once he knew it was only 2 eps and most likely felt here we go again.  Something that seems to be going somewhere but really what did it do. 

But I'm glad they called the shot for ending it instead of just going on till it was a painful canceled ending.

I'm hoping Dabb can surprise us now that he knows his spinoff isn't happening.

[PAForrest]

14 hours ago, FlickChick said:

And a little part of me wonders if he put up with it as long as possible because of the ramifications to all the people involved with the show, but finally the Dean/Michael fiasco was the last straw. Even Misha has been a "hang around" for some time now with basically nothing to do or any storyline of interest. So maybe they had "the talk" and this is the conclusion they came to - time to call it quits. 

I'm pretty sure it's a known fact that the guys have always felt responsible for the livelihood of the crew all these years, which is why they were so distraught about informing them of the final season. They know these folks will have to find new jobs.

And we also have to remember that when asked in articles or at cons, one of the reasons the Js always gave for finally saying enough was quality control, if they felt the storytelling wasn't there anymore. So I think it's safe to assume that was one of the reasons they had for calling it quits now. Not the only reason, but likely one of them.

Edited March 26, 2019 by PAForrest

[Pondlass1]

Part of it is the drudgery of the stale repetitive storylines under Dabb, but a large part has to be the thirst for something new and fresh and exciting.  Jensen wants to move on in his career and I contend he was the one to spark the conversation.  I think Jared and Misha would've  carried on with promises of more and more time off.

A mystic supernatural story can be about anything, there are no limits as in police or hospital procedurals.  But Dabb just locked the series into a box - same ol' shit different Thursday night.  And the seemingly desperate need to spawn a successful spin-off. 

In the process, Supernatural the series became second, an afterthought, and then got lost altogether.  It was never Dabb's baby.  He wanted his own baby.

Behind the scenes stuff might come out as time goes  by because I do believe there's something there (between Jensen and Dabb).  I doubt Dabb was too happy with Jensen's open mocking the marionette dance.  And I also believe Jensen was 'led on' regarding the span and consequence of the Michael Dean story.  He got to chose an outfit to wear and that was about it.  Dabb's eye  remained fixed on his spin-off prize. 

OT - Who was the fellow that kept spelling Jensen's name with an 'o' Jenson on Twitter?  Was it Dabb?

Anyway, I wish them all well. I hope the excellent crew  find excellent work.

I hope Jensen moves to HBO or something of quality.  I know many want him in a superhero film -  they are not my cup of tea unfortunately.  Plus they take ages and ages to film.  We might not see him for years.

Edited to add that, of course, this is all my own speculation.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Pondlass1

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I hope Jensen moves to HBO or something of quality.  I know many want him in a superhero film -  they are not my cup of tea unfortunately.  Plus they take ages and ages to film.  We might not see him for years.

This is my fear if he goes the film route. I wish for something like Benedict Cumberbatch did with Sherlock and the Marvel movies - the best of both worlds. I am doubtful he (Jensen) will want to jump right back into an hour long, 23 episode/season show, should that be on the table. Bottom line though, he is such a great actor, but Hollywood is full of unemployed great actors. I just want to see him act again, however that comes about.

I will always believe that he was thrilled and excited at the end of S13, the marionette fight notwithstanding, at the prospect of playing Michael. IMO, he was betrayed and unless/until I hear him say something that unequivocally shows his approval of the way things played out, I won't be convinced otherwise. IMO, all those people losing their jobs at the end of next season can thank Dabb/Singer for it.

[Lastcall]

Yeah Dabb caused this mess and I would say it was a huge loss if he hadn’t wasted 80 episodes already. I had hoped someone would step in a save it but the show probably only had 2 or 3 years left even if it had a competent show runner. Jensen getting burned by Dabb again had to be the last straw. Worst part....on contract years Dabb had to write something good for Dean to con Jensen into signing for another two. It’s over next year so there is no incentive for Dabb to do anything for Jensen and Dabb has always stuck me as a petty vindictive little weasel. Dabb will see season 15 as 20 more chances to show Sam is the best character and Dean is the pathetic sidekick.

On the bright side, I don’t think Dabb will be allowed to kill Dean. The WB probably wants a movie in the future. Jensen will probably take a year or so off maybe do some guest spots. I can’t see him doing any more series so we should see him in movies in a couple of years. I’m sure within 5 years we will have a supernatural movie in some for and within 10 they will most likely do a limited series like the other 100 shows that have come back lately. Best part of that is Jensen can see the scripts and agree with who to work with before signing on guaranteeing they won’t screw over Dean. It’s almost over, just 24 more episodes of crap.

[ster1]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

But Dabb just locked the series into a box - same ol' shit different Thursday night.  And the seemingly desperate need to spawn a successful spin-off. 

In the process, Supernatural the series became second, an afterthought, and then got lost altogether.  It was never Dabb's baby.  He wanted his own baby.

Taking to  "Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions" 

[PAForrest]

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

... But Dabb just locked the series into a box - same ol' shit different Thursday night.  And the seemingly desperate need to spawn a successful spin-off. 

In the process, Supernatural the series became second, an afterthought, and then got lost altogether.  It was never Dabb's baby.  He wanted his own baby.

Behind the scenes stuff might come out as time goes  by because I do believe there's something there (between Jensen and Dabb).  I doubt Dabb was too happy with Jensen's open mocking the marionette dance.  And I also believe Jensen was 'led on' regarding the span and consequence of the Michael Dean story.  He got to chose an outfit to wear and that was about it.  Dabb's eye  remained fixed on his spin-off prize. 

OT - Who was the fellow that kept spelling Jensen's name with an 'o' Jenson on Twitter?  Was it Dabb?

The one who kept purposely misspelling Jensen's name was Adam Glass, who I believe always blamed Jensen for Gamble getting fired. Glass was Gamble's #1 to her captain in season 6.

All the bolded stuff, 100%. My feeling is that much of season 14 in Dabb's mind, especially this second half, is/was all about Dabb taking that one last shot at a spin-off - this one outright starring Jack, who I always believed was intended to be the young male lead in the Wayward spin-off anyway. Now whether or not Dabb was pushing this spin-off idea with Pedowitz's blessing, or he was thinking he could get it in on the down-low and intended to try to prove to Pedowitz after the fact that it would work remains to be seen, or rather heard about at some point in the future when it's all said and done (if people talk).  But I think the seismic shift to NougatSueNatural makes even more sense now - to include specifically ripping away the Michael plot that Dabb never cared about when it was Dean's storyline to give to Jack.

My only question is if that's what Dabb always intended to do, or if the literal bait and switch in Yockey's last episode was a result of knowing before or after the holiday hiatus that the Js were calling it quits.

Edited March 26, 2019 by PAForrest

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Now whether or not Dabb was pushing this spin-off idea with Pedowitz's blessing, or he was thinking he could get it in on the down-low and intended to try to prove to Pedowitz after the fact that it would work remains to be seen, 

I think that one was all Dabb. From everything I heard Pedowitz really liked SPN as a show but is pretty much aware that its continued plowing along isn`t due to anyone Dabb is doing. It`s basically more like a perpetuum mobile at this point. 

Vampire Diaires experienced a ratings freefall in its latter years and Originals wasn`t a ratings hit either, Tomorrow People only last a Season and Containment flopped pretty much out of the gate and still from what I hear the network went after Julie Plec, showrunner of all of those, to keep working with her, not the other way around. She wanted Legacies and they wanted another show from her. Meanwhile Dabb can`t sell them on some water in the desert. They wanted a spin-off from SPN, not so much a show from anyone under the current regime. I mean, Berens ain`t exactly a "name" either.  

And I do think both Dabb (and Berens) are vindictive enough to make the final Season a scorched Earth like spoiled children. Unless someone tells him/them that this might not make the best impression on his future resume. I mean, it`s not like stuff like that doesn`t get noticed.  

Still, I would be very wary of where things are heading, especially for Dean.  

[Lastcall]

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And I do think both Dabb (and Berens) are vindictive enough to make the final Season a scorched Earth like spoiled children. Unless someone tells him/them that this might not make the best impression on his future resume. I mean, it`s not like stuff like that doesn`t get noticed.  

That’s my biggest fear...a Dabb and Berrens ending. I expect nothing less then the show lining up every victory Dean ever had from Abbadon to Zachariah for snowflake Sam to “really” kill. Then to assend to be the King of Heaven and Hell with his best lieutenants Kaia and Nickifer. All while Dean takes a pleasant walk in the park spilling hamburger grease on his shirt.

[ILoveReading]

I always wondered how Yockey got Nihilism past Dabb.

So now I'm wondering if the conversations about it being the last year started shortly after episode 2 when Dabb dumped the Michael story.   Then When Dabb heard the rumblings they came up with Nihilism but by this time Jensen had no faith left.

Because his comments about Michael at the 300th didnt really make sense. Unless festering was just code for "not happening on screen" 

If it was Jensen who started the discussion, suddenly Sam's words at the end of that trash ep make sense.   "How can you quit on us."  It kind of sounds like a loaded statement. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The one who kept purposely misspelling Jensen's name was Adam Glass, who I believe always blamed Jensen for Gamble getting fired. Glass was Gamble's #1 to her captain in season 6.

Interesting. I never would have guessed that, since many of the episodes that Adam Glass wrote were - at least from what I interpreted - either Dean orientated, fairly complimentary to his character or both, especially post season 7. If anything, I would have guessed he had something against Jared, since his episodes are generally either downright awful to Sam - "Southern Comfort" was a travesty and his Sam insulting dialogue in "Sharp Teeth" still bugs. - or portrayed him as a huge Samsel in distress, generally so other characters could save the day which was almost every other episode he wrote, but "As Time Goes By" and "Adventures in Babysitting" especially stand out. "Sharp Teeth" was pretty bad on that front also. And the worst ones were in season 8 on.

Out of all of Glass' 15 episodes, I only liked two: "Mommy Dearest" and "About a Boy." "Mother's Little Helper" was okay despite the "Sam learns a valuable lesson" undercurrent, because at least it wasn't at the level of his "Bad Boys" one where Glass didn't even bother to get Sam remotely right as long as we got hit over the head with Glass' very special message.

Edited March 26, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Lastcall]

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I always wondered how Yockey got Nihilism past Dabb.

So now I'm wondering if the conversations about it being the last year started shortly after episode 2 when Dabb dumped the Michael story.   Then When Dabb heard the rumblings they came up with Nihilism but by this time Jensen had no faith left.

Because his comments about Michael at the 300th didnt really make sense. Unless festering was just code for "not happening on screen" 

If it was Jensen who started the discussion, suddenly Sam's words at the end of that trash ep make sense.   "How can you quit on us."  It kind of sounds like a loaded statement. 

 That’s a good point, I can totally see Dabb trying to guilt Jensen into saving his job. I’m sure he blames Jensen for the show ending and he is too arrogant to believe his horrible writing had anything to do with it. Which is why I believe he is going to take it out on Dean next year.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The one who kept purposely misspelling Jensen's name was Adam Glass, who I believe always blamed Jensen for Gamble getting fired. Glass was Gamble's #1 to her captain in season 6. 

I never heard that. Glass wrote Bad Boys which I thought was quite sympathetic to Dean. Has he written other eps that were bad for Dean?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

   "How can you quit on us."  It kind of sounds like a loaded statement.  

That would also explain why Jared couldn't handle that scene.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If it was Jensen who started the discussion, suddenly Sam's words at the end of that trash ep make sense.   "How can you quit on us."  It kind of sounds like a loaded statement. 

It also maybe explains why Jared had such a hard time with the scene, so as to cry himself to sleep.

[ILoveReading]

I wish the show was ending this year.  There will be nothing left of Dean in 24 more episodes.

Spoiler

According to the what I posted in the spoiler thread his instincts are the next thing Dabb is stripping from him.

Edited March 27, 2019 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish the show was ending this year.  There will be nothing left of Dean in 24 more episodes.

  Hide contents

According to the what I posted in the spoiler thread his instincts are the next thing Dabb is stripping from him.

I wonder if Jensen will go the Mark Sheppard route and dish about all of the bts drama with Dabb. He really seems to have a problem with Jensen and has made Dean suffer for it. Besides SPN what else has Dabb done? I'm unfamiliar with him outside of this show. 

[Lastcall]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I wonder if Jensen will go the Mark Sheppard route and dish about all of the bts drama with Dabb. He really seems to have a problem with Jensen and has made Dean suffer for it. Besides SPN what else has Dabb done? I'm unfamiliar with him outside of this show. 

He wrote a comic, got on the show by teaming up with a better writer then got show runner because he was the last writer standing. That’s why him and Berrens are so desperate for a spin off. They know the gravy train is over and no one is going to hire the guy who killed supernatural and treated a highly industry loved actor like dirt.