“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't see Sam as this poor put upon oppressed younger brother whose every move is controlled by Dean.  

I don't either, and never have, but I also don't see Sam as some over-manipulative person who poor Dean has to give into all the time in order to get acceptance and affection from mean, old Sam.

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I see this as the opposite.  I find Sam gets rewarded for his mistakes whereas Dean is often punished for being right.   Prime example being the Brits.  Sam gets a self promotion to leader.  Dean ends up as a flunkie under chief Sam who asks permission to go out on hunts.  Benny is another example.  Dean was right but Sam got rewarded when Dean ended up cutting off contact for no other reason than Sam having a temper tantrum.  Even with Amy, despite Sam saying he was right Sam kept bringing her up.  I think that was one of the few storylines where Dean didn't end up having to apologize for his actions.       We will never agree so I'll agree to disagree on this point.

Actually I don't disagree with you on most of this (except Dean having to ask Sam for permission to go out on hunts... I don't see that from what I've seen.) But for me this kind of stuff is minor in terms of being rewarded. For me a reward means that doing something kind of crappy - like lying about Gadreel  - or risky - like taking on the mark of Cain or killing Death himself - doesn't lead to anything really awful happening (unlike lying about the Book of the Damned, which does) - and being praised and validated by God himself despite making that kind of choice / mistake. For me those are rewards on a narrative cosmic level and pretty much outweigh any small thing Sam might get away with... which usually ends up also being nullified in some way by the universe giving him cosmically bad repercussions for his mistakes.

And with Amy: Carver having Sam bring that up again when it was obviously decided and Sam was fine with it bugs the crap out of me. In my opinion, Carver didn't much pay attention to the character development Gamble gave Sam... or if he did, he seemed determined to tear it down and put Sam in the worst light possible whenever he had a chance. I hate what Carver did to Sam's characterization - not that I think he was much better to Dean either (see season 8B for some epic Dean character regression), but at least Dean got to make mistakes without breaking the planet ...unlike Sam and Castiel who seemingly couldn't sneeze wrong without causing an apocalypse or three under Carver's tenure. (The Naomi vs Metatron thing in my opinion was a ridiculous example. Who could've guessed that believing Naomi of all people would be the way to go? But of course Dean somehow knew that she was the one to listen to, and of course he was right and poor Castiel causes an apocalypse for guessing wrong. Man, did I hate season 8.)

[Aeryn13]

But this Season it's about a pretty big consequence to something Dean did in letting Michael in. And they have made sure not to bring up at all that Lucifer was a threat back in the Season 13 Finale. Not a whiff of that as a reason for Dean. Now we have Michael killing hunters specifically even.

And Sam's leadership has been more of a thing this Season than the Michael storyline for Dean. I'm just waiting on Sam's army of greatness beating Michael's army of loser monsters. I mean anyone can apparently take them out.

I see Dean's "rewards" as blink-and-you-miss-it bones thrown to the character once a Season or so but no meaningful acknowledgment. Like a full-on super-leader arc. Noone in this show ever has verbally acknowledged Dean ever had leadership abilities. And since Dabb, Berens and Singer would probably laugh at the notion of some positive Dean-trait, it likely never will. To them he is either a bully/dick or comic relief. THAT is what they say about him if they even reference him at all.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I see Dean's "rewards" as blink-and-you-miss-it bones thrown to the character once a Season or so but no meaningful acknowledgment.

Chuck's / God's acknowledgement for me was meaningful.

This season isn't over yet, so I will see what ultimately happens when it gets farther along.

I know you saw the end of season 12 as a positive thing for Sam... however I saw it as a negative and basically a rebuke of Sam's previous characterization. As someone who liked Sam's previous characterization (except for Carver's season 8 and 9 crap), I don't find what you are describing as some reward. I find it as the writers saying the equivalent of "Oh, did you like Sam as a character? Well, never mind that. He was a lazy follower loser who wasn't living up to his potential. This is really what Sam should be like. See how he's a leader now? What do you mean he isn't making intelligent decisions and screws up more than ever and never seems to do much research or actual effective hunting? Never mind that, because we say that's just fine."

I'm not a "tell" person. I want to see Sam being effective with actual effective actions... you know, like Dean gets to do. As far as I'm concerned you could have all of the Dean praise you wanted from every (usually insignificant) character on the show if just once recently Sam could actually DO something effective and useful rather than flitting around half asleep and/or like he's a deer in the headlights, making stupid decisions. What you call a reward, I call semi-insulting to the character I used to like. Whoever this is now, I don't recognize him much. Sam's supposed connections to characters he was just last season connected to - like Jack - are mainly via tell only now.

I don't even really know what Sam wants anymore. Didn't the writers just have him join the BMoL a couple of seasons ago, because he supposedly wanted to get rid of all  monsters so he wouldn't have to hunt anymore? Sure I didn't agree that that made any sense for his characterization, but that's what they presented. Now he supposedly wants hunting... except he's not really hunting, he's coordinating, so the "I want to be hunting with Dean" from season 10 was also tossed out the window. Basically for me, Sam has become a catch-all character used somewhat for exposition or a checklist of what they think a leader should be with very little substance. I don't find that to be a "reward" for the character. I'd much rather have scenes of meaningful connection and action.

So I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

To them he is either a bully/dick or comic relief. THAT is what they say about him if they even reference him at all.

At least he's not a prissy wet blanket with a creepy serial killer obsession *** like they seem to see Sam as. At one point in time, Sam did used to have fun or at least enjoy himself and wasn't generally wound so tight he seems like he's going to go off at any moment or collapse from exhaustion, depending on the mood. You know, consistent characterization.

*** Well at least this is somewhat unique and interesting, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much.

Edited to add: Reading this back now, it sounds like I'm not happy with anything this season, but that's not true. I'm still not entirely on board with this Sam as leader thing. I honestly don't think it really fits his personality. And I wish the writers wouldn't keep going to the Sam gets hit on the head and knocked out and/or out of the fight well all the time (they went there twice in the last episode alone), but at least Sam and Dean are being civil to each other this season and there isn't some out of character manufactured angst going on between them, so I'm happy about that at least. I personally am also happy so far with the Michael slow burn. I expected that Michael would be back, and I was pleasantly surprised that he id have a plan and on the whole, it wasn't a bad one, especially with respect to what he did to / with Dean.

I'm looking forward to seeing more... I just hope they get past this Sam arc and give him something with substance instead. It' been a long, long time since Sam has had an arc with any kind of substance and relevance to the mytharc.

Edited December 19, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[MysteryGuest]

The only person who "blamed" Dean for saying yes to Michael was Dean, himself.  Everyone else has told him multiple times that they don't, and they he saved them all.  As usual, the writing sucks because they didn't specifically add the line "and saved the world from souped up Lucifer", but we all know that's why he did what he did.  I guess I've stopped worrying about what the show "tells" me and I just rely on what I see happening.  

We still have over half a season left, so I'm sure there will be plenty of action for Dean to be involved in, whether as Michael, or as himself.  I personally wouldn't want to have watched a season where Dean/Michael just goes around destroying everything.  I don't want Dean to have even more guilt than he has already for the things that Michael did while possessing him.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The only person who "blamed" Dean for saying yes to Michael was Dean, himself.  Everyone else has told him multiple times that they don't, and they he saved them all.  As usual, the writing sucks because they didn't specifically add the line "and saved the world from souped up Lucifer", but we all know that's why he did what he did.  I guess I've stopped worrying about what the show "tells" me and I just rely on what I see happening.  

We still have over half a season left, so I'm sure there will be plenty of action for Dean to be involved in, whether as Michael, or as himself.  I personally wouldn't want to have watched a season where Dean/Michael just goes around destroying everything.  I don't want Dean to have even more guilt than he has already for the things that Michael did while possessing him.

So much all of this. You said it much better than I could have.

And I'm glad that I'm not the only one who wouldn't have wanted to see MichaelDean destroying everything, but then again I also didn't want to see too much of Michael's evil plan hatching either. I don't mind being a little surprised concerning things like that. I may be one of the few people who was delighted by the surprise of finding out that Castiel was working with Crowley in season 6, but for me that wouldn't have had the same impact if I'd known all along what was happening.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The only person who "blamed" Dean for saying yes to Michael was Dean, himself.  Everyone else has told him multiple times that they don't, and they he saved them all.  As usual, the writing sucks because they didn't specifically add the line "and saved the world from souped up Lucifer", but we all know that's why he did what he did.  I guess I've stopped worrying about what the show "tells" me and I just rely on what I see happening.  

We still have over half a season left, so I'm sure there will be plenty of action for Dean to be involved in, whether as Michael, or as himself.  I personally wouldn't want to have watched a season where Dean/Michael just goes around destroying everything.  I don't want Dean to have even more guilt than he has already for the things that Michael did while possessing him.

I don't think it has to be the only option that Michael/Dean is destroying things. They could have shown Dean fighting Michaell for control. We could have had Dean checking out in the middle if a hunt ling before the last two episodes. We could have had the big scene between Michael and Jack be Michael! dean not the other rvessel. There were myriad ways to do this but the writers would rather think they are springing these big moments when it was pretty clear the direction  and they did that to give all this time to Nick and other characters and Sam's army. Which would have kept Dean on screen right along with Michael

Thanks

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think it has to be the only option that Michael/Dean is destroying things. They could have shown Dean fighting Michaell for control. We could have had Dean checking out in the middle if a hunt ling before the last two episodes.

It didn't have to be long moments, but something that built the tension.  You could still have had the moments with Jack, Nick and all the other moments if you had used it wisely.  Right now, I'm not surprised that both Sam and Dean fans are upset.  The potential for a great story has all the ripe ingredients. It's how they tossed the salad in an unsatisfying way that is my major issue.  If they only used a few minutes to tell the first part then what would drive them to do it better in the second half.  They will do what they have been doing, wrap it up too fast for what reason???  I would rather they took the time to develop the story than seeing how much of it sticks and trying to tell us it was a great story.  JMV

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 5:14 PM, ZennyKenny said:

TPTB have to know that that would be commercial suicide though, right? I mean surely Dean-less SPN would make the rating plummet.

I agree. The show is the brothers. Any other character can die, disappear, take a vacation, etc., but those two need to be there for it to still be the same show, imo.

I don't see the BMoL as a betrayal on Sam's part, but I don't see Gadreel as a betrayal on Dean's part either although I don't dislike Sam for having OTT feelings about what happened. I always see that season as sort of like a married couple having a fallout, where the people involved say things just to hurt one another that aren't really true (like Sam saying he wouldn't have went to the same lengths as Dean being the main example, especially since it was proven false not long after with Demon!Dean). I think a lot of it was about Sam having so much on his hands as it was (with the Apocalypse, things Soulless!Sam did, not trying to save Dean from Purgatory, etc.), that to then now have Kevin's blood on his hands, too, made him lash out irrationally. Especially since the end of the previous season, he had felt he was being 'purified' by the trials, only to follow that up with an innocent's death (albeit Gadreel using his body to do it). Maybe I'm one of the few that actually likes both brothers though? lol

[Cambion]

You know I kinda wish they'd have dropped Nickifer and split that angst up for Sam and Dean.  Sam clearly has some misgivings about the leadership role he, frankly, had thrust upon him.  Who else would everyone look to with Dean out the picture being Michael's new ride?  I think that would have been/be a really interesting thing to see Sam wrestle with, he gets it right sometimes and sometimes he really doesn't.  What does that do to a guy as sensitive to the gray areas of life as Sam is?  Given the way he's agonized over killing some of the less monstrous monsters in the past, where is his struggle with all these other hunters going out under his orders, or at least under his charge and what they are doing?  Surely not all of them are going to see shades of gray and will make decisions that will bother Sam.  He used to get so frustrated with Dean's black and white monster = dead attitude, surely they could have resurrected some of that for Sam and the strange hunters.

 

As for Dean, here's a guy who has never before been possessed, has spent literal years denying Micheal use of his sword/vessel, denying destiny over and over then all of a sudden he says yes?  He was under a lot of duress.  His prime directive was about to be blown to hell and he obviously couldn't let that happen, but he was still trying to save himself as well by making the deal with Michael.  And since the beginning of the angel encounters he's considered them all dicks with wings -- until Castiel had a chance to chill and prove himself a worthy friend, I mean, at the beginning, even Cas was all over Dean's shit.  And now all of sudden Dean goes against all of that history and instinct and opens the door for Micheal, but, oh yeah, you do it my way? Since when does a dick with wings keep a deal?  How many times did Zachariah and Michael, tell Dean he was basically just a meat suit?  Anyway, what's that gotta do to someone who fought so hard for his own sense of personhood to have it violated and betrayed, even though it was a stupid, desperate act on Dean's part?  Come on, this is Dean.  The man is 90% guilt for things other people have done.  It's not like he's gonna let himself off the hook easy.  

There'd also be some serious boy melodrama about how these things cause friction in their relationship.  All the same kinda stuff that is really the meat of many past seasons.  If this show is not about the relationship of the brothers, it's just a MoTW, ya know?

 

And they showed us snippets of this in some of the recent episodes, Sam finding Dean's perfect hunt, Dean holing up because of what Michael did with his face on.  How do you deal with that when you already blame yourself for making a stupid deal?  It's not like Dean would look at all the people saved and pat himself on the back for doing his best to save them.  But, sigh, it could have been so much more.  And mostly, so much more satisfying than crazy Nick or Jack's petit mort.

 

Yeah, more Monday Morning Quarterbacking, but they were so close to having something like this and they stuffed in the peripheral characters instead.

[MysteryGuest]

On 12/19/2018 at 1:01 AM, Cambion said:

Yeah, more Monday Morning Quarterbacking, but they were so close to having something like this and they stuffed in the peripheral characters instead.

Sadly, I think the "stuffing in the peripheral characters" is what we're going to be stuck with, going forward.  They are the filler we're going to have to deal with so that Jensen and Jared can work less hours.  I wouldn't mind so much if the writers could actually come up with interesting subplots.    Even if they focused on one or two of the people who came here for the AU, they could have made it interesting.  If you've lived all of your life in a world of war and death, and you're suddenly thrust into a world that is similar to yours, only without all of the destruction, it would be perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about going back.  If you have to show us all of these people, then make them interesting.  Give us even the slightest reason to care about them.  But they're incapable of doing that.  They can barely write interesting scenes for the main cast members anymore.  

 

On 12/18/2018 at 9:48 PM, catrox14 said:

I don't think it has to be the only option that Michael/Dean is destroying things. They could have shown Dean fighting Michaell for control.

I agree with you here.  This would have been interesting to see.  I think part of my issue with not wanting more Micheal/Dean is that I wasn't all that impressed with the scenes we did get.  It wasn't Jensen's portrayal, but rather what they had him doing.  It was pretty boring.  And I think if he had been in more scenes, they'd have just given us more of what we were getting.  

Every discussion for me comes back to the same basic fact...our writer are not talented enough, or not motivated enough, or not given enough creative freedom to write the scenes we all seem to want to see.  And that is endlessly frustrating to me.  I can't quite decide whether they genuinely think this is great stuff they're coming up with, or whether they simply don't care anymore.  The audience loses either way.

Edited December 20, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Cambion]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Every discussion for me comes back to the same basic fact...our writer are not talented enough, or not motivated enough, or not given enough creative freedom to write the scenes we all seem to want to see.  And that is endlessly frustrating to me.  I can't quite decide whether they genuinely think this is great stuff their coming up with, or whether they simply don't care anymore.  The audience loses either way.

2

  Sadly, I have to agree.  

[patty1h]

Found a video on Youtube that has clips of failed sitcoms from the 70's - most of the shows only lasted one season.  It was interesting to see how TV shows change (and the clothes!).   During the last show (called "Highcliffe Manor") on the video, I see the name Eugenie Ross-Leming, as a cast member.  Then I see that the show was developed by Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner.   I only knew them from SPN and I guess I pictured Gen X folks writing for the show; I had no idea that they go back 35+ years of television.   Here's the clip for those interested - the Buckner/Ross-Leming show is at 14:00 on the video.

Edited December 26, 2018 by patty1h
Forgot to put in the URL for the clip

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I only knew them from SPN and I guess I pictured Gen X folks writing for the show; I had no idea that they go back 35+ years of television.  

They were actually involved in some shows I liked back in the day. However, going by stuff like "Scarecrow and Mrs.King" and "The Adventures of Lois and Clark", I`d say their true forté lies in semi-romantic stuff and "will they/won`t they" couples. 

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`d say their true forté lies in semi-romantic stuff and "will they/won`t they" couples. 

The Destiel shipper in me, is like....ohhhhh.  No, I don't believe they will ever go there.

[auntvi]

Eugenie was also at Second City in the 70s with Belushi. She was young & hip 40+ yrs ago. 

[trudysmom]

On Catrox's speculation that Dabb sees Dean as an extension of Sam, yes.  I almost posted this a few days ago, then deleted it. But I wonder if Dabb and company don't just hate Dean, they also don't like, or are supremely jealous of Jensen.  So screw the handsome guy who the people love, who is a genuinely good guy, a talented actor, (so talented in fact, he's done them a favor sticking around for their crap for so long, he could move on from SPN and be successful).  Let's make him look foolish at every turn, call him names, no, wait--even better, let's make him so filled with self-loathing that he calls himself names and  makes stupid, rash decisions.  But, salt in the wound, let's make his brother soo much smarter, calmer, a natural leader. (urk) Let's make Dean all about saving Sam, because the show is and must be about SAM.  

I wonder if Kripke didn't show to the 300 party because he hates what they've done to his show.  

[Myrelle]

18 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

On Catrox's speculation that Dabb sees Dean as an extension of Sam, yes.  I almost posted this a few days ago, then deleted it. But I wonder if Dabb and company don't just hate Dean, they also don't like, or are supremely jealous of Jensen.  So screw the handsome guy who the people love, who is a genuinely good guy, a talented actor, (so talented in fact, he's done them a favor sticking around for their crap for so long, he could move on from SPN and be successful).  Let's make him look foolish at every turn, call him names, no, wait--even better, let's make him so filled with self-loathing that he calls himself names and  makes stupid, rash decisions.  But, salt in the wound, let's make his brother soo much smarter, calmer, a natural leader. (urk) Let's make Dean all about saving Sam, because the show is and must be about SAM.  

 

Yup. Dean stays more stagnant than ever as a character on this show while Sam(and even Mother Mary, for that matter) has been allowed to "grow" by leaps and bounds under Dabb, IMO.

This, more than any other reason, is why I also think that there is some kind of bias against the character(at least) in the present writers' room.

And no one will ever convince me of otherwise, except the writers, themselves, by giving Dean(and JA) a role that doesn't make him the Familial Cheerleader, first and foremost, before anything else-because over the years Jensen(more than any writer or showrunner, IMO) has made the character much more than that-first and foremost-to many of us in this fandom, even if the writers don't want to acknowledge it and continually refuse to.

Carver is the only one who tried(by the end of his tenure, but at least he tried), IMO, but Dabb quashed that as quickly as he could. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by Myrelle

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Yup. Dean stays more stagnant than ever as a character on this show while Sam(and even Mother Mary, for that matter) has been allowed to "grow" by leaps and bounds under Dabb, IMO.

This, more than any other reason, is why I also think that there is some kind of bias against the character(at least) in the present writers' room.

And no one will ever convince me of otherwise, except the writers, themselves, by giving Dean(and JA) a role that doesn't make him the Familial Cheerleader, first and foremost, before anything else-because over the years Jensen(more than any writer or showrunner, IMO) has made the character much more than that-first and foremost-to many of us in this fandom, even if the writers don't want to acknowledge it and continually refuse to.

Carver is the only one who tried(by the end of his tenure, but at least he tried), IMO, but Dabb quashed that as quickly as he could. 

Any showrunner who publicly states that he has removed the character of Dean so that the other characters (insert Sam, Jack, Mary, Nickifer, Bobby) can breathe, is unequivocally a first rate asshole. Period. And then some!! And yes, I do believe Dabb is jealous of Jensen's talents not just Dean.

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Any showrunner who publicly states that he has removed the character of Dean so that the other characters (insert Sam, Jack, Mary, Nickifer, Bobby) can breathe, is unequivocally a first rate asshole. Period. And then some!! And yes, I do believe Dabb is jealous of Jensen's talents not just Dean.

I also believe Berens is taking out his frustration on his band of waywards sues not being picked up on Jensen.   He can deny it all he wants but his little mouth piece spoke loud and clear.

[ILoveReading]

Just read the synopsis for episode ten.  As expected

Spoiler

Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam.  Of course Dean would never fight for himself.   I laughed at the part of Michael's monsters.  Have they actually killed anyone?  They don't seem like that much of a threat.  No way Supreme Leader Sue loses a single member of his army.

[gonzosgirrl]

55 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Any showrunner who publicly states that he has removed the character of Dean so that the other characters (insert Sam, Jack, Mary, Nickifer, Bobby) can breathe, is unequivocally a first rate asshole. Period. And then some!! And yes, I do believe Dabb is jealous of Jensen's talents not just Dean.

 

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I also believe Berens is taking out his frustration on his band of waywards sues not being picked up on Jensen.   He can deny it all he wants but his little mouth piece spoke loud and clear.

Cosigning both these posts, and nobody will convince me otherwise. 

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Just read the synopsis for episode ten.  As expected

  Hide contents

Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam.  Of course Dean would never fight for himself.   I laughed at the part of Michael's monsters.  Have they actually killed anyone?  They don't seem like that much of a threat.  No way Supreme Leader Sue loses a single member of his army.

You didnt really expect Dabb & Co to give Jensen any chance to shine, did you? He will punish Jensen and Dean fans for wanting MichaelDean til the bitter end. 

[devlin]

Life must be so miserable for dabb and his crew. Imagine finally being able to write for your own show only for the strongest actor  to be a guy that you are obscenely jealous of and seriously intimidated by. Unfortunately for us it means that they are trying to destroy his character, though fortunately Jensen has so much scene presence he is making it work, for me anyway. I just like him  on my screen and I tend to ignore everything going on around him. They can try to push sam into the spotlight as much as they want but he just doesn’t hold my attention. Thankfully if I need my fill of a certain type of dean there are 14 seasons to pick through 

[DeeDee79]

56 minutes ago, devlin said:

Thankfully if I need my fill of a certain type of dean there are 14 seasons to pick through 

This is what gets me through. Thank goodness for the early years. In the Dabb years there aren't many episodes that I have an interest in rewatching if I want good Dean content. Regarding Dean and Asa Fox were the only episodes from season 12 that I didn't hate but I can't even rewatch the latter anymore because the less Mary on my screen the better. Season 13 was slightly better but not enough to make an impact IMO.

[Aeryn13]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Just read the synopsis for episode ten.  As expected

  Hide contents

Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam.  Of course Dean would never fight for himself.   I laughed at the part of Michael's monsters.  Have they actually killed anyone?  They don't seem like that much of a threat.  No way Supreme Leader Sue loses a single member of his army.

Well, the synopsis just is a three sentence summation of the trailer, no suprise there. 

The Djinn actually seemed effective as a killer. The others, not so much no.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Djinn actually seemed effective as a killer. The others, not so much no.

His trap lured exactly one and half hunters.  Not really an effective killer. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

Well, the synopsis just is a three sentence summation of the trailer, no suprise there. 

The Djinn actually seemed effective as a killer. The others, not so much no.

I just don't get why, of all the things within his power, Michael would choose hybrid werepires as his soilders. The idea that they were "pure" in and of itself was dumb. And then they turned around and made them emotional and rather stupid. If it wasn't so crazy, I'd swear Dabb was trying to sabotage the show from within. 

[Myrelle]

Where is everyone seeing the synopsis?

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just don't get why, of all the things within his power, Michael would choose hybrid werepires as his soilders. The idea that they were "pure" in and of itself was dumb. And then they turned around and made them emotional and rather stupid.

We know the Michael storyline was never a priority to Dabb.  It was just his excuse to get Dean off screen so he had enough breathing room to make Supreme Leader Sue happen, because it wasn't going to any other way.  

No one will ever convince me of that was the only reason they pretended to allowed Jensen to play Michael.

Yes, this season makes me bitter.

[AwesomO4000]

39 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Regarding Dean and Asa Fox were the only episodes from season 12 that I didn't hate but I can't even rewatch the latter anymore because the less Mary on my screen the better.

I thought "Twigs & Twine & Tasha Banes" was also a fairly good Dean episode.

Quote

In the Dabb years there aren't many episodes that I have an interest in rewatching if I want good Dean content.

That's how I feel about the first two seasons of Carver's reign. I think there are maybe three good Sam episodes during that time if I squint and tilt my head a bit, but that's being really generous. There are no "Regarding Dean" equivalents for Sam during that time. Mostly I just have to hope that there's an episode where Sam isn't a compete jerk or doesn't become a damsel in distress - sometimes even both! - in which case there might be 5 episodes total out of 46 if I'm being generous. ...And weirdly two of those episodes featured dogs. Oh wait, I take that back. Sam was a damsel in distress in one of those dog episodes and that was the better dog episode... never mind. And since I don't rewatch that other dog episode, that leaves about 4 decent Sam content episodes from those two seasons.

So I understand and sympathize, but can't say that I preferred those seasons to what we have now. Even if I'm currently not entirely happy with Sam's current storylines, at least he's not being portrayed as the "mean brother" any more. He still often ends up as the "damsel in distress," but hey, I guess I can't have everything.

[Casseiopeia]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If it wasn't so crazy, I'd swear Dabb was trying to sabotage the show from within.

I don't think it's so crazy.  How after Bloodlines did WB and Supernatural think that Dabb was the best choice as showrunner?

[DeeDee79]

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought "Twigs & Twine & Tasha Banes" was also a fairly good Dean episode.

I didn't like this ep because it was kind of depressing to be honest. I know that most of the eps aren't cheery or lighthearted but between the death of Tasha, Alicia, Max's angst and the nonsense with Mary and Ketch there wasn't much to be enjoyed IMO. 

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think it's so crazy.  How after Bloodlines did WB and Supernatural think that Dabb was the best choice as showrunner?

Excellent point!!

[ILoveReading]

36 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Where is everyone seeing the synopsis?

It was on twitter.  I posted it in the spoiler thread

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't like this ep because it was kind of depressing to be honest. I know that most of the eps aren't cheery or lighthearted but between the death of Tasha, Alicia, Max's angst and the nonsense with Mary and Ketch there wasn't much to be enjoyed IMO. 

Apologies. I didn't realize non-depressing was part of the criteria.

[DeeDee79]

28 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Even if I'm currently not entirely happy with Sam's current storylines, at least he's not being portrayed as the "mean brother" any more.

I'm quite fed up with all of the brother angst that has been written to put them at odds with each other. It doesn't make the story more compelling even though the writers seem to think that it does. One of the reasons why I prefer earlier seasons is that while their relationship wasn't perfect I could see two people that cared about and liked each other on my screen. I'm not happy with the writing that Dean has gotten in the last few seasons but I am glad that the nonsense of seasons 8 and 9 that left the brothers warring with each other more often than not seem to be behind us. For now, anyway.

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It was on twitter.  I posted it in the spoiler thread

Thank you. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

...but I am glad that the nonsense of seasons 8 and 9 that left the brothers warring with each other more often than not seem to be behind us. For now, anyway.

So much this. I couldn't agree more.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Apologies. I didn't realize non-depressing was part of the criteria.

No apologies needed. I know that my original comment was in regards to good Dean eps from season 12 but I was so underwhelmed by this episode that it didn't make my Dean positive list. It's one that I haven't rewatched. 

[ILoveReading]

I never mined the brothers being at odds if I felt it was organic, like their fight in Scarecrow,  It had been building.  Season 4 was another good example.  I might be one of the few but I really enjoyed s9. 

Even is s4, even thought they were at odds, I still felt like they were on the same page.  They were fighting for the same thing but they split on how to accomplish that, and I never doubted they loved each other.  They were on different pages of the same book

Now I feel the opposite.   They might be on the same page but they're reading different books.  Its been so long since I felt the like the brothers were actually in sync and it feels like they're on the opposite side even if they aren't at odds or at each others throats.  It feels like I'm watching two guys who barely tolerate each other even if they aren't arguing.   I'm not even sure these guys like each other very much.  Especially, with how Jared is playing Sam these days.  It seems like everything Dean says or does annoys Sam.  

I know that's probably confusing, it makes senss in my head, but I don't know how to explain it any other way.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

No apologies needed. I know that my original comment was in regards to good Dean eps from season 12 but I was so underwhelmed by this episode that it didn't make my Dean positive list. It's one that I haven't rewatched. 

I'll admit to not having rewatched any of season 12 yet actually. I do seem to remember, however, that even though this episode was as depressing as you say, I remember that I thought that it was actually different, fairly inventive, and well written. I remembered being impressed with being surprised at what happened and that things didn't get all tied up in a neat bow at the end with cliched speeches and sappy sentiment.

For those reasons this episode did stand out for me.

[devlin]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm not even sure these guys like each other very much.  Especially, with how Jared is playing Sam these days.  It seems like everything Dean says or does annoys Sam.  

I know that's probably confusing, it makes senss in my head, but I don't know how to explain it any other way.

This is the part I don’t get either. It seems like dean simply breathing annoys the crap out of sam. It makes sam’s desperation to save dean seriously unbelievable 

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Now I feel the opposite.   They might be on the same page but they're reading different books.  Its been so long since I felt the like the brothers were actually in sync and it feels like they're on the opposite side even if they aren't at odds or at each others throats.  It feels like I'm watching two guys who barely tolerate each other even if they aren't arguing.   I'm not even sure these guys like each other very much.  Especially, with how Jared is playing Sam these days.  It seems like everything Dean says or does annoys Sam.  

I know that's probably confusing, it makes senss in my head, but I don't know how to explain it any other way.

I think that I understand what you're trying to say. The fondness and affection that was still there even when they were combative with each other is now hard to see. Jensen and Jared are still playing their parts very well but I don't see the brotherly bond as clearly as I did years ago.

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I remembered being impressed with being surprised at what happened and that things didn't get all tied up in a neat bow at the end with cliched speeches and sappy sentiment.

I can agree with this. I was just so disappointed because I really liked Max and Alicia and I thought that they would be great characters to see every now and then. It pissed me off that they killed off yet another character with potential.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think it's so crazy.  How after Bloodlines did WB and Supernatural think that Dabb was the best choice as showrunner?

And then gave him a crack at another spinoff. I swear he has something on TPTB. Because he sucks out loud. 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I never mined the brothers being at odds if I felt it was organic, like their fight in Scarecrow,  It had been building.  Season 4 was another good example.  I might be one of the few but I really enjoyed s9. 

Even is s4, even thought they were at odds, I still felt like they were on the same page.  They were fighting for the same thing but they split on how to accomplish that, and I never doubted they loved each other.  They were on different pages of the same book

Now I feel the opposite.   They might be on the same page but they're reading different books.  Its been so long since I felt the like the brothers were actually in sync and it feels like they're on the opposite side even if they aren't at odds or at each others throats.  It feels like I'm watching two guys who barely tolerate each other even if they aren't arguing.   I'm not even sure these guys like each other very much.  Especially, with how Jared is playing Sam these days.  It seems like everything Dean says or does annoys Sam.  

I know that's probably confusing, it makes senss in my head, but I don't know how to explain it any other way.

To me it just feels like they've taken any kind of fight out of the Dean character.

He folds like a card table when any of his family members disagree with him now-and to what end? To keep the peace or because he's "wrong" or his feelings about something(anything, IMO) are "wrong"? Either way, it doesn't matter-he still winds up folding like a card table or cheap suit-which apparently works for most of the purported bibros and Samfans in the present fandom, but sadly, not for this Deanfan who would still like to see Dean stand up for his own POV once in a while and especially in situations when he has a good point and one that's more than capable of being defended, if the biased writing wasn't so biased-examples-his feelings on Jack and The Ice Queen, just to name two-not to mention Sam's assertions that Dean was acting  like John in regards to the Cinnamon Roll.

I'd take the fighting and disagreeing any day over the kind of shit writing of the brothers' relationship that we've been getting from these asshat writers during the Dabb years,

Blech.

It's been awful, IMO.

[trudysmom]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:13 PM, DeeDee79 said:

One of the reasons why I prefer earlier seasons is that while their relationship wasn't perfect I could see two people that cared about and liked each other on my screen.

Thank you, that's exactly what I feel.  A bazillion likes, please.  

On 1/4/2019 at 8:36 PM, devlin said:

On 1/4/2019 at 8:25 PM, ILoveReading said:

I'm not even sure these guys like each other very much.  Especially, with how Jared is playing Sam these days.  It seems like everything Dean says or does annoys Sam.  

I know that's probably confusing, it makes senss in my head, but I don't know how to explain it any other way.

This is the part I don’t get either. It seems like dean simply breathing annoys the crap out of sam. It makes sam’s desperation to save dean seriously unbelievable 

And this a bazillion more.  (Sorry, just watched Stand by Me) Maybe that's the issue I've had with Sam lately, or with Jared.  It's been bugging me that he seems to so flat, but maybe it's annoyance of the actor coming through the character.  Maybe the J2 has just been together too long.  Maybe Jensen's being on the Most Handsome lists, being in magazine articles, having a successful brewery that's getting some buzz, maybe it's simple jealousy.  I don't want to think these things, but I'm trying to find reasons for some of the stuff that's been bugging me. 

[auntvi]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:28 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I'll admit to not having rewatched any of season 12 yet actually. I do seem to remember, however, that even though this episode was as depressing as you say, I remember that I thought that it was actually different, fairly inventive, and well written. I remembered being impressed with being surprised at what happened and that things didn't get all tied up in a neat bow at the end with cliched speeches and sappy sentiment.

For those reasons this episode did stand out for me.

This one I actually enjoyed because the dreaded "ensemble" piece was well-written and directed (Yockey and John Badham). Alicia & Max Banes and Jody were fun & had real personalities. Both Sam & Dean were seen as legends by the hunters, and at the end they made peace, at least temporarily, with Mary. One of the few episodes that treated both Sam & Dean fairly.

Edited January 6, 2019 by auntvi
added one necessary word

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, auntvi said:

This one I actually enjoyed because the dreaded "ensemble" piece was well-written and directed (Yockey and John Badham). Alicia & Max Banes and Jody were fun & had real personalities. Both Sam & Dean were seen as legends by the hunters, and at the end they made peace, at least temporarily, with Mary. One of the few episodes that treated both Sam & Dean fairly.

I know that you quoted AwesomO but her comment was in reply to my mention of Twigs & Twines & Tasha Banes. It sounds like you're commenting on Asa Fox.

[auntvi]

Oops okay, I'm talking about Asa Fox.

[DeeDee79]

48 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

Thank you, that's exactly what I feel.  A bazillion likes, please.  

And this a bazillion more.  (Sorry, just watched Stand by Me) Maybe that's the issue I've had with Sam lately, or with Jared.  It's been bugging me that he seems to so flat, but maybe it's annoyance of the actor coming through the character.  Maybe the J2 has just been together too long.  Maybe Jensen's being on the Most Handsome lists, being in magazine articles, having a successful brewery that's getting some buzz, maybe it's simple jealousy.  I don't want to think these things, but I'm trying to find reasons for some of the stuff that's been bugging me. 

One thing that stands out when watching the earlier seasons besides the relationship between the brothers is Jared's portrayal of Sam. He was always the more serious of the two but in the latter seasons he rarely shows any lightness in his demeanor. I wonder if it's an acting choice or how he's been directed to act. Sam just seems so humorless and serious all of the time IMO.

2 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Oops okay, I'm talking about Asa Fox.

I absolutely agree with your comment that the brothers were treated fairly in terms of story and screentime. More of that would be wonderful. 

[devlin]

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

Thank you, that's exactly what I feel.  A bazillion likes, please.  

And this a bazillion more.  (Sorry, just watched Stand by Me) Maybe that's the issue I've had with Sam lately, or with Jared.  It's been bugging me that he seems to so flat, but maybe it's annoyance of the actor coming through the character.  Maybe the J2 has just been together too long.  Maybe Jensen's being on the Most Handsome lists, being in magazine articles, having a successful brewery that's getting some buzz, maybe it's simple jealousy.  I don't want to think these things, but I'm trying to find reasons for some of the stuff that's been bugging me. 

The J2 chemistry has completely gone and that is what is making this show so hard to watch at the moment. I agree it does make you wonder about any bts issues 

[gonzosgirrl]

45 minutes ago, devlin said:

The J2 chemistry has completely gone and that is what is making this show so hard to watch at the moment. I agree it does make you wonder about any bts issues 

I don't see that. I'll admit that *I'd* like to smack Jared at times during their panels, but I have rarely ever gotten the impression that Jensen feels anything but affection for Jared. I think that self-centeredness is part of Jared's personality and I don't believe he intends to take over as he does at times. I believe they are the good friends they have always been. Now Sam is a different story. I do believe that's all on Jared's acting method - and it changed after S3, in my opinion. Given that there are myriad directors on the show, I have to believe it's Jared's choice to play Sam this way. Maybe what he sees as stoic and responsible, I see as humorless and arrogant, but regardless, there have been very few moments where I have 'liked' Sam in a long time. That was not the case in earlier seasons.