“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But being angry about and not trusting Dean for lying, to me that, yes, very much would've made Sam that angry - enough to spout those kind of nasty things.

I really, *really* don't want to start up the wars again, but just maybe he didn't bring up the issue of lying because he was afraid he'd be called on it.  Pot/Kettle?  

TBH, they *both* lie any time they know they're doing something the other won't approve of.  It never stops them from doing it, *or* from lying about it.  To be angry about the lie is kind of the least of the problems.  

[AwesomO4000]

59 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I really, *really* don't want to start up the wars again, but just maybe he didn't bring up the issue of lying because he was afraid he'd be called on it.  Pot/Kettle?

I understand. And this is a good point, and makes a lot of sense, except Sam generally hadn't let that stop him before, not even under Carver. Even with how underhanded Sam himself ended up being with Benny, he still went with the "you lied to meeee" complaints. (Have I mentioned that I hate season 8 lately?) And this time the lying lead to more than the usual loss of trust (with Gadreel taking over Sam's body) and worry on Sam's part (I found it kind of heartbreaking when Sam was worrying that he was going bad or wrong again.) So to me, the omission here just seemed odd.

But as I said, I understand if miles vary. And part of that might be that, for me, the lying was actually the worst part of it - hands down. No question. Because it contributed to most of the bad things that Gadreel did in Sam's body and for Sam feeling "wrong." Kevin arguably might have still died, but it might not have happened via Sam, so for me: yeah, the lying was the worst part.

Edited February 9, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I really, *really* don't want to start up the wars again, but just maybe he didn't bring up the issue of lying because he was afraid he'd be called on it.  Pot/Kettle?  

TBH, they *both* lie any time they know they're doing something the other won't approve of.  It never stops them from doing it, *or* from lying about it.  To be angry about the lie is kind of the least of the problems.  

ITA. They're still lying and hiding things from each other even to this very day, so that complaint is completely passe within their relationship IMO, too.

[bozodegama]

It seems to me that the writers made Sam and Dean take some serious stupid pills this season.  They keep standing around, waiting to be flung around or just not doing something they normally would do.  Last episode, they announced to the witches, "we have witch killing bullets," and then they were flung around.  This episode, they walked in on Lucifer and an angel and the three of them just stood there until they were flung around the room.  Then they stood around listening to Ketch (who i love and i wish they would make more of a psychopath) until Cass had enough and knocked him out.  What's with Dean?  He needs to use his white gun or hit stab someone quick.  It's almost like we have Dean light.  Come on writers.  

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

It seems to me that the writers made Sam and Dean take some serious stupid pills this season.  They keep standing around, waiting to be flung around or just not doing something they normally would do.  Last episode, they announced to the witches, "we have witch killing bullets," and then they were flung around.  This episode, they walked in on Lucifer and an angel and the three of them just stood there until they were flung around the room.  Then they stood around listening to Ketch (who i love and i wish they would make more of a psychopath) until Cass had enough and knocked him out.  What's with Dean?  He needs to use his white gun or hit stab someone quick.  It's almost like we have Dean light.  Come on writers.  

If you read some old posts in this thread you'll see that someone coin the term Valium!Dean to describe Dabb's version of the character.   

I think it first perfectly.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Dean had two options all along

 

1) Tell Sam the truth and let Sam make the decision for himself since it’s his body and his life. 

2) Lie to Sam to ensure events enfolded exactly as Dean wanted because Dean chose to be a selfish b——— who had no respect for Sam’s right to decide he’d find Death preferable to a Supernatural violation. 

 

Other people are entitled to view it more charitably than I do, but let us not pretend Dean didn’t have choices because he did and IMO he chose the wrong one. 

 

I'm talking about factual things that happened in the episode.

I'm not telling you to not be pissed at Dean or to not think he's a POS, that s your prerogative.

I just can't quite follow the reasoning that the writing was giving Dean any choices other than letting Sam die or save him by an angel possession.

The  writing never put Dean  in the position of being able to actually talk to Sam himself.   Gadreel could only show him what was happening in Sams mind. He couldn't have asked Sam what he wanted because only supernatural beings could be in Sam's mind per the writing. So how could Dean himself have asked Sam specifically if would agree to the possession?

 Gadreel was the one talking to Sam. Dean knew that Sam might not want to be possessed but it wasn't implied that Dean directed Gadreel to do it the way he did. That wasn't a projection of what Dean was saying. That was Gadreel making himself look like Dean and saying what he thought Dean would say. AFAIK, Dean did not ask Gadreel to wear his face. Unless  I'm not remembering it correctly.

So how is it Deans character flaw vs  limited options  set up in the writing?

I have never disagreed that Dean continuing to lie was wrong. I understand why he did but he shouldn't have. That is separate matter than the choices Dean was given by the writers re the initial possession.

To me those are separate things.

28 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I'm glad we all agree ( lol ), the writers screwed Dean more! Winner, winner, chicken dinner! ; )

Heh fair enough. Dean ended up screwed by options he wasn't given

That is pretty standard.

Edited February 9, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, bozodegama said:

It seems to me that the writers made Sam and Dean take some serious stupid pills this season.  They keep standing around, waiting to be flung around or just not doing something they normally would do.  Last episode, they announced to the witches, "we have witch killing bullets," and then they were flung around.  This episode, they walked in on Lucifer and an angel and the three of them just stood there until they were flung around the room.  Then they stood around listening to Ketch (who i love and i wish they would make more of a psychopath) until Cass had enough and knocked him out.  What's with Dean?  He needs to use his white gun or hit stab someone quick.  It's almost like we have Dean light.  Come on writers.  

Hey, they needed Sister Jo to be a badass. Can't do that if TFW is gonna take action and not listen to the stupid Devil.   and poor Sister Jo just wanted to be understood cause she was just the smartest angel in Heaven who just magically knows how to fix all of Heaven's problems. Pretty sure this is more of the "boys are stupid or stinky or mean" thing they seem to think needs to be at work to give women anything good. It's awful writing really IMO

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

I'm talking about factual things that happened in the episode.

I'm not telling you to not be pissed at Dean or to not think he's a POS, that s your prerogative.

I just can't quite follow the reasoning that the writing was giving Dean any choices other than letting Sam die or save him by an angel possession.

The  writing never put Dean  in the position of being able to actually talk to Sam himself.   Gadreel could only show him what was happening in Sams mind. He couldn't have asked Sam what he wanted because only supernatural beings could be in Sam's mind per the writing. So how could Dean himself have asked Sam specifically if would agree to the possession?

 Gadreel was the one talking to Sam. Dean knew that Sam might not want to be possessed but it wasn't implied that Dean directed Gadreel to do it the way he did. That wasn't a projection of what Dean was saying. That was Gadreel making himself look like Dean and saying what he thought Dean would say. AFAIK, Dean did not ask Gadreel to wear his face. Unless  I'm not remembering it correctly.

So how is it Deans character flaw vs  limited options  set up in the writing?

I have never disagreed that Dean continuing to lie was wrong. I understand why he did but he shouldn't have. That is separate matter than the choices Dean was given by the writers re the initial possession.

To me those are separate things.

Heh fair enough. Dean ended up screwed by options he wasn't given

That is pretty standard.

Dean knew there was a method of communicating with Sam. He could have easily made it a condition that he'd only go along with this if Gadreel made sure to tell Sam what he was getting himself into before he said yes. Dean didn't do such a thing because, as the episode makes clear, Dean thought Sam would never agree to it and Dean's needs came before Sam's wishes. The fact he continued to lie to Sam for months afterwards further shows Dean has zero respect for Sam and Sam's right to self-autonomy. 

 

This disrespect for other people is not just limited to this incident. Back in season six he had Castiel remove the memories of Lisa and Ben without their consent, which was a violation in its own right although not as bad as the possession. Likewise, in season 12 he tried to condemn Claire to a life of living as a werewolf rather than making a cure attempt. Although thankfully unlike Ben, Lisa and Sam Claire was in the position to rightly point out it was her life and not his so the choice lay with her.

[ILoveReading]

IMO, no one on this show really has the moral highground when it comes to disrespecting someone's autonomy

Examples-

• Bobby and Sam* not telling Dean that "Sam" was back.  Both decided that living outside the hunting life was the best thing for him.  Shouldn't that have been Dean's decision?**  This is far and away the most cruel thing anyone has ever done to him.  Dean wasn't allowed to be angry or upset at this.  Bobby's response- 'Id do it again because its closest to happyness he'd seen a hunter get.  Again was Dean happy?  Bobby completely disregared what Dean would have wanted for his own reason.  How could anyone ever think that family man Dean Winchester could be happy believing Sam was being tortured for eternity.  But then we know Bobby doesn't see Dean as a person anyway.  (Not to mention it brought back some very unpleasant memories of a similar story line ruining All My Children for me, but off topc).
• Sam using his powers to remove demons.  I know the show likes to pretend exorcisms don't exist but this was an option he could have used.  He tells Ruby- 'I almost had it that time."  He's practicing his powers using people as guinea pigs.  IMO, this is the equivalent of doing experimental medical procedures on comatose patients.  They're incapable of consenting.
• Sam shoving the demon back into that person by reverse exorcism and then stabbing her.  She (i think it was a she) would have lived had Sam not done that.
• Sam lying about who he was to both Jess and Amelia.  They could have been in danger and had no idea.  These were long term relationships.  They both deserved to know that being with Sam presented a risk. 
• Sam drinking nurse Cindy's blood.  She was clearly alive and could have been saved by Sam's powers or an exorcism.  She should have been offered a choice about whether she wanted to sacrifice herself for Sam's quest.
• Sam just giving the page to Rowena (not technically removing autonomy but shows Sam is still willing to lie and has no guilt about doing so and go behind Dean's back)
• Sam using the book of the damned to remove the Mark when he knew full well that Dean had said he didn't want the mark removed that way.  \
• Sam sleeping with the body Ruby possessed.

*I'm including Sam in this because when we first got spoilers that no one was going to tell Dean about Sam being back, it seemed Sam was Sam, and the majority of Sam fans I knew at that time all defended and praised Sam at that time, saying he was being so brave and sacrificing for Dean.  (Yes, Ive read posts that used those exact words.  So it seem Sam fans believe that leaving Dean handing is something Sam would do).

**I know staying with Lisa and Ben was technically Dean's choice by the strictest definition of the word, but since Dean didn't have all the information he really wasn't given the option of making an informed choice.  He went to them because Sam asked him too, so if Dean knew Sam was back he probably would never have gone to them in the first place. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The fact he continued to lie to Sam for months afterwards further shows Dean has zero respect for Sam and Sam's right to self-autonomy. 

His first instinct was to tell Sam the truth right away, he actually planned on it. The dialogue in the ep makes that clear at the end. Gadreel immediately blackmails him because of it. That doesn`t excuse that Dean gave in to the blackmail so easily but it still is a little bit different than if Dean had been from the start "yup, never gonna tell him". 

 

Quote

Likewise, in season 12 he tried to condemn Claire to a life of living as a werewolf rather than making a cure attempt. Although thankfully unlike Ben, Lisa and Sam Claire was in the position to rightly point out it was her life and not his so the choice lay with her.

 That makes it sound like he chained her up and forced her at gunpoint not to take the cure. He just pointed out that life as a werewolf was manageable - see Garth - and argued against taking the cure. To me, that`s not remotely the same as the Gadreel thing. 

Back in Season 3 Sam likewise came with a "be a happy Frankenstein creature to get out your deal" solution but Dean disagreed and Sam let it go. The thing with Claire was in essence no different. Or is it somehow different when Sam does it?  

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Dean knew there was a method of communicating with Sam. He could have easily made it a condition that he'd only go along with this if Gadreel made sure to tell Sam what he was getting himself into before he said yes. Dean didn't do such a thing because, as the episode makes clear, Dean thought Sam would never agree to it and Dean's needs came before Sam's wishes. The fact he continued to lie to Sam for months afterwards further shows Dean has zero respect for Sam and Sam's right to self-autonomy. 

 

This disrespect for other people is not just limited to this incident. Back in season six he had Castiel remove the memories of Lisa and Ben without their consent, which was a violation in its own right although not as bad as the possession. Likewise, in season 12 he tried to condemn Claire to a life of living as a werewolf rather than making a cure attempt. Although thankfully unlike Ben, Lisa and Sam Claire was in the position to rightly point out it was her life and not his so the choice lay with her.

The bolded part:

The first bolded part. This is a plot point that was never specifically addressed on screen so it's not known why Gadreel chose to present himself as Dean. At the moment of when the hospital is being invaded by killer angels and Sam is apparently getting worse by the moment,  Dean may have just left it up to the angel he thought was named Ezekiel, who was given the Castiel seal of approval to give him an informed choice. It's not known either way so we are both making assumptions as to why it happened that way.

As to the 2nd bolded part. Where was it made clear in the episode that Dean did it because his needs came first? I'm legitimately asking what scene you think made it clear. Maybe I've missed something and I'm happy to look at it again.

Do you think the show was trying to imply something about Dean in 9.1 related to his past decisions. Whatever he decided in s12 is irrelevant to what choices he made in s9. Sorry, I'm not following you on that part.

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The bolded part:

The first bolded part. This is a plot point that was never specifically addressed on screen so it's not known why Gadreel chose to present himself as Dean. At the moment of when the hospital is being invaded by killer angels and Sam is apparently getting worse by the moment,  Dean may have just left it up to the angel he thought was named Ezekiel, who was given the Castiel seal of approval to give him an informed choice. It's not known either way so we are both making assumptions as to why it happened that way.

As to the 2nd bolded part. Where was it made clear in the episode that Dean did it because his needs came first? I'm legitimately asking what scene you think made it clear. Maybe I've missed something and I'm happy to look at it again.

Do you think the show was trying to imply something about Dean in 9.1 related to his past decisions. Whatever he decided in s12 is irrelevant to what choices he made in s9. Sorry, I'm not following you on that part.

IMO the fact the last thing we saw before the scene featuring Sam saying yes was Dean stating "Sam will never say yes - not to you" was meant to show us that Dean knew perfectly well he was going against Sam's wishes. That he went into it with full knowledge he was placing his wishes above Sam's. The fact he then continued to lie about it for months afterwards cemented the fact. Sam was in no inherent danger from knowledge of the possession. The only danger was Sam choosing to expel Gadreel because it wasn't what he wanted. Dean's words right before the possession and his actions for months afterwards pretty clearly show that Dean knew Sam wouldn't have wanted this. Dean just didn't care because Dean wishes came before Sam's in Dean's mind. And IMO saying anything to the contrary is a direction contradiction of what we were shown on screen. 

 

@catrox14 My mention of season 6 and then 12 was meant to highlight the fact that a lack of respect for other people's wishes and a willingness to invade their very thoughts and feelings is an established pattern of behaviour with Dean. It has happened on at least three occasions under three different showrunners. 

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, no one on this show really has the moral highground when it comes to disrespecting someone's autonomy

Examples-

• Bobby and Sam* not telling Dean that "Sam" was back.  Both decided that living outside the hunting life was the best thing for him.  Shouldn't that have been Dean's decision?**  This is far and away the most cruel thing anyone has ever done to him.  Dean wasn't allowed to be angry or upset at this.  Bobby's response- 'Id do it again because its closest to happyness he'd seen a hunter get.  Again was Dean happy?  Bobby completely disregared what Dean would have wanted for his own reason.  How could anyone ever think that family man Dean Winchester could be happy believing Sam was being tortured for eternity.  But then we know Bobby doesn't see Dean as a person anyway.  (Not to mention it brought back some very unpleasant memories of a similar story line ruining All My Children for me, but off topc).

And I see Dean's decision to essentially collaborate in a form of Supernatural rape and then follow it up by months of gaslighting someone as the cruellest thing we've seen from any character on this show. Especially when one takes into consideration Sam's existing issues with bodily autonomy (Meg and Lucifer possessing) and mental health issues (the hallucinations throughout season seven disrupting his understanding of what is and isnt real).

Edited February 9, 2018 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO the fact the last thing we saw before the scene featuring Sam saying yes was Dean stating "Sam will never say yes - not to you" was meant to show us that Dean knew perfectly well he was going against Sam's wishes. That he went into it with full knowledge he was placing his wishes above Sam's. The fact he then continued to lie about it for months afterwards cemented the fact. Sam was in no inherent danger from knowledge of the possession. The only danger was Sam choosing to expel Gadreel because it wasn't what he wanted. Dean's words right before the possession and his actions for months afterwards pretty clearly show that Dean knew Sam wouldn't have wanted this. Dean just didn't care because Dean wishes came before Sam's in Dean's mind. And IMO saying anything to the contrary is a direction contradiction of what we were shown on screen. 

 

@catrox14 My mention of season 6 and then 12 was meant to highlight the fact that a lack of respect for other people's wishes and a willingness to invade their very thoughts and feelings is an established pattern of behaviour with Dean. It has happened on at least three occasions under three different showrunners. 

And I see Dean's decision to essentially collaborate in a form of Supernatural rape and then follow it up by months of gaslighting someone as the cruellest thing we've seen from any character on this show. Especially when one takes into consideration Sam's existing issues with bodily autonomy (Meg and Lucifer possessing) and mental health issues (the hallucinations throughout season seven disrupting his understanding of what is and isnt real).

My point isn't about letting Dean off the hook its that neither cares about body autonomy  when something they want is on the line.

We did see that the guilt was eating Dean alive.  (Again not excusing his actions, just saying that Dean lying wasn't something that Dean was taking lightly).

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

@catrox14 My mention of season 6 and then 12 was meant to highlight the fact that a lack of respect for other people's wishes and a willingness to invade their very thoughts and feelings is an established pattern of behaviour with Dean. It has happened on at least three occasions under three different showrunners. 

And I see Dean's decision to essentially collaborate in a form of Supernatural rape and then follow it up by months of gaslighting someone as the cruellest thing we've seen from any character on this show. Especially when one takes into consideration Sam's existing issues with bodily autonomy (Meg and Lucifer possessing) and mental health issues (the hallucinations throughout season seven disrupting his understanding of what is and isnt real).

I have no qualms with you using s6 but s12 is after s9 so I don't know why that would have mattered to how the writers wrote 9.1 which is what I thought we were talking about. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I really, really have a problem with using the word rape when referring to the Gadreel/Sam/Dean story. It's incredibly offensive to me as a survivor.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Ugh, dear god no! She'd make it the Dean only show with her clear fangirling of Jensen and Dean ugh 

I would be happy for there to be Dean centric eps. But she's gonna be more brothers oriented and even the Claire ep was not kind to Dean in the end.

So you should be more worried that she'll forget all about Castiel. The only episode she wrote that had him be significant was The Future where he betrayed the boys and stole the Colt.  Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I would be happy for there to be Dean centric eps. But she's gonna be more brothers oriented and even the Claire ep was not kind to Dean in the end.

So you should be more worried that she'll forget all about Castiel. The only episode she wrote that had him be significant was The Future where he betrayed the boys and stole the Colt.  Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Oh yes her obvious disinterest in Castiel is definitely a part of why I wouldn't want her as show runner. A Glynn ran show I imagine to be a place where Dean gets all the action, Jared is just there because she knows the show wouldn't survive without both Js and Misha would be quickly fired as Gamble tried to do. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I really, really have a problem with using the word rape when referring to the Gadreel/Sam/Dean story. It's incredibly offensive to me as a survivor.

Same here for the same reason. I actually requested that another word be used when it was being thrown around during another season 9 discussion.  It always seems to pop back up unfortunately.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Back in Season 3 Sam likewise came with a "be a happy Frankenstein creature to get out your deal" solution but Dean disagreed and Sam let it go.

Yup. I agree. It's why it seemed disingenuous to me (of the writers) that one brother doing something crazy like this to save the other was what the writers chose to put in the forefront during the season 9 midseason. This is what the brothers have generally done one way or another throughout the show since season 2, and they had pretty much come to expect it from one another. Dean even got offended when Sam didn't do it. So if the writers were going to highlight it because the idea was supposed to be that either of them (or both) was going to learn something from it or there would be consequences which would show that there was a purpose to bringing that up as the focus, then fine... but that's not what happened in my opinion. Neither one seemed to change or learn anything from it, so why bother even having that "fight" in the first place? It made no sense to me, because did anyone really think Sam was going to let Dean die without a fight at the end of season 9? The whole thing was pointless. Geez, Carver drove me crazy with that kind of pointless shit.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

e wasn’t incompetent but he also wasn’t competent. Yockey also wrote Cas well in Lily Sunder so I’m gonna just put my Cas issues with AT down to Glynn and Dabb :)

I think it's hilarious how much you  hate that episode because it was good for Dean in a really negative way.  Shouldn't your ire be with Glynn for The Big Empty vs Yockey for AT?

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's hilarious how much you  hate that episode because it was good for Dean in a really negative way.  Shouldn't your ire be with Glynn for The Big Empty vs Yockey for AT?

My ire goes towards both since both episodes contain parts of the contrast I found offensive. I dislike AT more than TBE because in addition to my issues with the contrast I found the overall case of that episode boring and monotonous whereas I enjoyed the therapy stuff. M

 

Im also willing to give Yockey more benefit of the doubt overall as side from AT I’ve enjoyed all his other episodes. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My ire goes towards both since both episodes contain parts of the contrast I found offensive. I dislike AT more than TBE because in addition to my issues with the contrast I found the overall case of that episode boring and monotonous whereas I enjoyed the therapy stuff. M

 

Im also willing to give Yockey more benefit of the doubt overall as side from AT I’ve enjoyed all his other episodes. 

Is it because Cas was able to manipulate his way out of the Empty you think it's less favorable than Dean killing himself and being told he had to keep living?

What did you enjoy about the therapy stuff? I mean that was a terrible therapist, IMO. She was pretty biased IMO

Edited February 12, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is it because Cas was able to manipulate his way out of the Empty you think it's less favorable than Dean killing himself and being told he had to keep living?

What did you enjoy about the therapy stuff? I mean that was a terrible therapist, IMO. She was pretty biased IMO

Its because IMO a consistent theme of the Dabb era has been to keep showing us how unimportant Castiel is compared to the Winchester’s. Yes, I get that they’re the main protagonists and thus the most important, but I don’t think I’ve ever watched a show so determined to prove the point of “oh your favourite is a secondary-character and so unimportant”.  Off the top of my head there’s his talk with the angel in O Brother Where Art Thou about how he’s expendable, there’s showing us his inability to complete a simple vampire hunt in the absence of Sam and Dean (har har he’s so useless and now the reaction to their deaths. Castiel is belittled and told he’s worthless and has to basically annoy his way out while a big show and dance is made of Dean’s death and how he is so important. 

 

I dont mind my favourite being secondary to the mains. There’s plenty of shows I watch where I happen to prefer characters that aren’t the main protagonist. I’d just rather see my favourite being regarded as an important albeit smaller piece of the puzzle rather than being consistently told he’s useless.  

[FlickChick]

Well, after reading all of this, IMO, the next time the writers attempt to kill off either Sam or Dean, the other brother should just let them die. AND NO Cas coming to save the day with powers or resurrections of any kind. Then, you know what? No one could bitch about which brother did the worse "saving" of the other, because the show would be over. Then we'd have nothing to bitch about anymore. ;)

Edited February 12, 2018 by FlickChick

[Res]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

Well, after reading all of this, IMO, the next time the writers attempt to kill off either Sam or Dean, the other brother should just let them die. AND NO Cas coming to save the day with powers or resurrections of any kind. Then, you know what? No one could bitch about which brother did the worse "saving" of the other, because the show would be over. Then we'd have nothing to bitch about anymore. ;)

I wish I could like this 1000000x over! 

You have NO idea how much I screamed at Dean to let Sam die at the beginning of season 9 rather than what happened! You have NO idea how much I wanted Sam to leave Demon Dean alone! You have absolutely NO idea how much I wanted to flip a desk at the end of season 10! 

I DO NOT WANT EITHER OF THEM TO SAVE THE OTHER AGAIN!! And I would sign a petition, send letters, etc. if I thought it would do a damn bit of good. 

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

Well, after reading all of this, IMO, the next time the writers attempt to kill off either Sam or Dean, the other brother should just let them die. AND NO Cas coming to save the day with powers or resurrections of any kind. Then, you know what? No one could bitch about which brother did the worse "saving" of the other, because the show would be over. Then we'd have nothing to bitch about anymore. ;)

 

9 minutes ago, Res said:

I wish I could like this 1000000x over! 

You have NO idea how much I screamed at Dean to let Sam die at the beginning of season 9 rather than what happened! You have NO idea how much I wanted Sam to leave Demon Dean alone! You have absolutely NO idea how much I wanted to flip a desk at the end of season 10! 

I DO NOT WANT EITHER OF THEM TO SAVE THE OTHER AGAIN!! And I would sign a petition, send letters, etc. if I thought it would do a damn bit of good. 

If this means they’d both stop sacrificing thousands possibly millions of lives for the sake of one man then I’d happily sign a petition too. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

 

If this means they’d both stop sacrificing thousands possibly millions of lives for the sake of one man then I’d happily sign a petition too. 

You mean all three of them, don't you? Gotta include Cas in there! 

[Icarus]

On 2/9/2018 at 9:48 PM, Wayward Son said:

And I see Dean's decision to essentially collaborate in a form of Supernatural rape and then follow it up by months of gaslighting someone as the cruellest thing we've seen from any character on this show. Especially when one takes into consideration Sam's existing issues with bodily autonomy (Meg and Lucifer possessing) and mental health issues (the hallucinations throughout season seven disrupting his understanding of what is and isnt real).

I am sure I am late to comment on this point but I find it so distasteful and totally untrue about Dean's actions IMO-  the definitions of both "Rape" and "Gaslighting" are:

Rape is a word for sexual assault. ... Rape can also mean to plunder or strip something of resources. There are few words more powerful than rape, which is a horrifying crime. To rape someone is to force them to have sex with you. This word isn't an obscenity, but its meaning is.

Gaslighting - manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity. To expand a bit more - Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity

How these highly emotive words can be used for Dean's action in letting Gadreel in is beyond me, there was no sexual rape,  and IMO the taking of his autonomy cannot be interpreted as rape i.e. stripping his resources.  Gaslighting means he would be manipulating Sam on purpose to make him doubt his sanity - definitely IMO again not what happened - however they could possibly be used in relation to Lucifer and Sam's time in the cage and his time with the broken wall.  

I totally believe that Dean's actions after letting Gadreel in are the ones that he needed to make up for and the continual lying was really bad, however as much as I felt terrible for Sam being put in that situation - and I did I also felt Dean's pain and guilt as played by Jensen.

[Wayward Son]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

You mean all three of them, don't you? Gotta include Cas in there! 

If it means no more sacrificing innocent lives then yes I’m happy to have Cas’ name included on the list! Actually let’s add Jack’s name to the list as a preventative. I don’t care if Lucifer does it since he’s supposed to be the bad guy! 

[Bobcatkitten]

I would just like the show to go back to saving other people rather than each other and their small group of friends/family. 

[Airmid]

22 hours ago, Icarus said:

I am sure I am late to comment on this point but I find it so distasteful and totally untrue about Dean's actions IMO-  the definitions of both "Rape" and "Gaslighting" are:

Rape is a word for sexual assault. ... Rape can also mean to plunder or strip something of resources. There are few words more powerful than rape, which is a horrifying crime. To rape someone is to force them to have sex with you. This word isn't an obscenity, but its meaning is.

Gaslighting - manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity. To expand a bit more - Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity

How these highly emotive words can be used for Dean's action in letting Gadreel in is beyond me, there was no sexual rape,  and IMO the taking of his autonomy cannot be interpreted as rape i.e. stripping his resources.  Gaslighting means he would be manipulating Sam on purpose to make him doubt his sanity - definitely IMO again not what happened - however they could possibly be used in relation to Lucifer and Sam's time in the cage and his time with the broken wall.  

I totally believe that Dean's actions after letting Gadreel in are the ones that he needed to make up for and the continual lying was really bad, however as much as I felt terrible for Sam being put in that situation - and I did I also felt Dean's pain and guilt as played by Jensen.

 

While not usually what people mean when they use the word 'rape', Sam as a resource, to me, is a more practical take. Humans, body and soul, are seen as a resource to a multitude of supernatural beings who give zero care to what happens once they are done using them. From Raphael leaving his vessels catatonic, to Ruby leading Sam by the nose (or other anatomy really) so that he would feed and house Lucifer to just the complete disregard for the souls Cas was after regardless of how 'worthy' they were, this is shown in spades time and again. Humans expected to be cattle waiting in line to be of use. Gadreel saw a potential use for Sam, so he showed up, lied, cheated and ended up breaking his word and murdering with Sam's body, leaving Sam with the aftermath in memories of actions not done by him but by his body that he felt guilt over. 

As for the other meaning, there isn't a good word that I can think of that really conveys Sam's (or any possessed individual) ordeal. However, stepping back from the sexual aspect of rape, the victim has a horrific loss of self, worth, and agency that stays with them for a long time. Rape itself is usually a crime committed for sadistic pleasure, power, control, and/or anger, motivations that Lucifer, Meg, and yes, Gadreel, have to at least some extent. While not necessarily a word I would use, given it's consequences and the loss of control and self Sam experiences, I can see why people use it.

Dean never meant to gaslight Sam. He did however manipulate the situation in his favor. He lied, covered up and otherwise smoothed over all the weird events and missing time Sam had. Not to mention the other weird things that were happening including self healing and people living through things that they probably shouldn't have. It did cause Sam to question is own memory, perception and sanity over time. Again, while not the most accurate word, Dean's not excused from doing this behavior because he lacked malicious intent behind his actions. It is a symptom of a rather twisted relationship, especially since Dean fell into these behaviors without meaning too. One could argue that 'unintentional gaslighting' should be used instead of just 'gaslighting', but it again doesn't free Dean from doing these very things to keep Sam complicit, telling himself that he was doing it for Sam's own good instead of what was really going on.

It is also a really shitty thing to do to someone who has had severe mental health problems that include taking car rides with their hallucinations.

YMMV on these things, of course, and while I don't necessarily use these words, I can understand why people do. 

***This is not a Dean bash post, simply that it's covering a portion of time that Dean wasn't the best. While Dean going to nightmarish lengths to save Sam is within his character and not something I have a problem with, I do however have a problem with how the storyline here was handled as a whole. Especially given that Dean was rather complacent himself with the whole Gadreel situation, instead of using critical thinking and common sense that he does possess once the original crisis (Sam's imminent death) had passed. Instead, Dean allowed himself to be manipulated to continue in this bad situation, dump Cas on the street and not look for a way out of the mess, or a back up plan for that matter when things go bad. And he's been around enough to know things go bad fast. 

[DeeDee79]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 6:11 AM, Icarus said:

I am sure I am late to comment on this point but I find it so distasteful and totally untrue about Dean's actions IMO-  the definitions of both "Rape" and "Gaslighting" are:

Rape is a word for sexual assault. ... Rape can also mean to plunder or strip something of resources. There are few words more powerful than rape, which is a horrifying crime. To rape someone is to force them to have sex with you. This word isn't an obscenity, but its meaning is.

Gaslighting - manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity. To expand a bit more - Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity

How these highly emotive words can be used for Dean's action in letting Gadreel in is beyond me, there was no sexual rape,  and IMO the taking of his autonomy cannot be interpreted as rape i.e. stripping his resources.  Gaslighting means he would be manipulating Sam on purpose to make him doubt his sanity - definitely IMO again not what happened - however they could possibly be used in relation to Lucifer and Sam's time in the cage and his time with the broken wall.  

I totally believe that Dean's actions after letting Gadreel in are the ones that he needed to make up for and the continual lying was really bad, however as much as I felt terrible for Sam being put in that situation - and I did I also felt Dean's pain and guilt as played by Jensen.

I agree with this post. It seems that people either don't know or don't care about the fact that throwing around the word rape so casually could be upsetting to others.

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

 

While not usually what people mean when they use the word 'rape', Sam as a resource, to me, is a more practical take. Humans, body and soul, are seen as a resource to a multitude of supernatural beings who give zero care to what happens once they are done using them. From Raphael leaving his vessels catatonic, to Ruby leading Sam by the nose (or other anatomy really) so that he would feed and house Lucifer to just the complete disregard for the souls Cas was after regardless of how 'worthy' they were, this is shown in spades time and again. Humans expected to be cattle waiting in line to be of use. Gadreel saw a potential use for Sam, so he showed up, lied, cheated and ended up breaking his word and murdering with Sam's body, leaving Sam with the aftermath in memories of actions not done by him but by his body that he felt guilt over. 

As for the other meaning, there isn't a good word that I can think of that really conveys Sam's (or any possessed individual) ordeal. However, stepping back from the sexual aspect of rape, the victim has a horrific loss of self, worth, and agency that stays with them for a long time. Rape itself is usually a crime committed for sadistic pleasure, power, control, and/or anger, motivations that Lucifer, Meg, and yes, Gadreel, have to at least some extent. While not necessarily a word I would use, given it's consequences and the loss of control and self Sam experiences, I can see why people use it.

Dean never meant to gaslight Sam. He did however manipulate the situation in his favor. He lied, covered up and otherwise smoothed over all the weird events and missing time Sam had. Not to mention the other weird things that were happening including self healing and people living through things that they probably shouldn't have. It did cause Sam to question is own memory, perception and sanity over time. Again, while not the most accurate word, Dean's not excused from doing this behavior because he lacked malicious intent behind his actions. It is a symptom of a rather twisted relationship, especially since Dean fell into these behaviors without meaning too. One could argue that 'unintentional gaslighting' should be used instead of just 'gaslighting', but it again doesn't free Dean from doing these very things to keep Sam complicit, telling himself that he was doing it for Sam's own good instead of what was really going on.

It is also a really shitty thing to do to someone who has had severe mental health problems that include taking car rides with their hallucinations.

YMMV on these things, of course, and while I don't necessarily use these words, I can understand why people do. 

***This is not a Dean bash post, simply that it's covering a portion of time that Dean wasn't the best. While Dean going to nightmarish lengths to save Sam is within his character and not something I have a problem with, I do however have a problem with how the storyline here was handled as a whole. Especially given that Dean was rather complacent himself with the whole Gadreel situation, instead of using critical thinking and common sense that he does possess once the original crisis (Sam's imminent death) had passed. Instead, Dean allowed himself to be manipulated to continue in this bad situation, dump Cas on the street and not look for a way out of the mess, or a back up plan for that matter when things go bad. And he's been around enough to know things go bad fast. 

Not posting this to argue or debate with anyone, but just to say I thought this was a well written post especially the bits in bold. 

[trxr4kids]

On 2/12/2018 at 2:38 PM, FlickChick said:

Well, after reading all of this, IMO, the next time the writers attempt to kill off either Sam or Dean, the other brother should just let them die. AND NO Cas coming to save the day with powers or resurrections of any kind. Then, you know what? No one could bitch about which brother did the worse "saving" of the other, because the show would be over. Then we'd have nothing to bitch about anymore. ;)

 

 

On 2/12/2018 at 4:13 PM, Res said:

You have NO idea how much I screamed at Dean to let Sam die at the beginning of season 9 rather than what happened! You have NO idea how much I wanted Sam to leave Demon Dean alone! You have absolutely NO idea how much I wanted to flip a desk at the end of season 10! 

I DO NOT WANT EITHER OF THEM TO SAVE THE OTHER AGAIN!! And I would sign a petition, send letters, etc. if I thought it would do a damn bit of good. 

 

On 2/12/2018 at 4:24 PM, Wayward Son said:

If this means they’d both stop sacrificing thousands possibly millions of lives for the sake of one man then I’d happily sign a petition too. 

 

On 2/12/2018 at 5:26 PM, ahrtee said:

You mean all three of them, don't you? Gotta include Cas in there! 

I've never actually thought Dean sold his soul just to save Sam because he couldn't live without Sam. We had Faith,IMTOD,CSPWDT, Crossroad Blues and Croatoan that all pointed out that not only was Dean kinda done but that he was devastated by the cost of his being saved. I always have thought that the fatigue, guilt and grief he felt was the kerosene on top of his look out for Sammy pyre. Regardless Dean had no way of knowing it would start an Apocalypse, arguably the only person he could think would be hurt by it would be Sam. 

Sam had no way of knowing that killing Lillith was a bad thing, I mean she's a demon. Heaven and Hell both named her as the one who was breaking seals and trying to start the apocalypse. Dean also wanted to kill her just as much, he just didn't want Sam using demonic powers to do it. So in short that whole mess wasn't about them saving each other at all costs, it was just a mess which Sam cleaned up (1).

Sam was brought back soulless not by Dean but by Cas. Dean's options at that point were kill him and keep my fingers crossed he won't be resurrected again despite knowing that a)Raphael wanted to restart the apocalypse and b)even a salt and burn or a swan dive into hell doesn't stop the body from being resurrected or get his soul back and hope he can help me get the fuck off the crazy train.

Cas was trying stop Raphael and save the world, Dean and Sam included but not only because of or only for them. Maybe his methods were questionable but you've got to break a few eggs to make an omelet. Regardless of if Cas had worked with Crowley or not the leviathan would have been released because of Crowley. In the end Cas cleaned up his mess with help from Dean and Sam. 

Augh! The Gates of Hell: A) metatron wrote the tablets, whose to say it actually seals in the demons and doesn't just expel them B)where would the damned go? C) if reapers could still deliver souls to hell couldn't the rogues (LOL) still ferry souls (of demons) out? D) Who gave Sam and Dean the right to change the world order, ( at that point in time, I realize the world is now their responsibility <eye roll> )? Anyway it was a choice to have Sam die perhaps for nothing or have Sam live and things remain the SAME.

Angel in a Sam: saving Sam didn't cause untold deaths, Metatron did.

The Mark of Cain: Dean took the Mark to kill Abbadon and save people, not Sam. Dean should have remembered that his bloodline was special to both heaven and hell and if being a killer made you were worthy then Crowley could have saved himself the effort. But hey NBD Demon Dean just sang karaoke, drank, was slutty and volatile and killed demons. 

Removing the mark is oddly the only time, if I squint,  I can hold them mostly accountable for saying screw it, you come first but I feel their core personalities kinda worked against common or any sense. Sam had a goal, remove the mark, save my brother, the rest was details. Cas had a mission, remove the mark, save Dean again, the rest was details. Dean had a plan, a good plan until asked to do the one thing he couldn't do, even when his own father told him too. Meh now that I think on it more I blame Death(2) and Chuck for being manipulative and cryptic assholes.

1) I say Sam cleaned it up and won't rehash the part of the army man or my SS bitterness since this post is already epic length for me.

2) I love Death but that was sooo stupid, *here's my scythe that can kill me, kill Sam with it and I'll take you off to be alone forever, btw there will be no pie or greasy food stops before we pass go*

 

ETA 2 : What I'm saying is IMO the only time one or all of them potentially, actively chose to put the needs of the one against the needs of the many is in removing the mark and killing death however none of them had all of the necessary information to realize that's what they were doing. MMV

Edited February 14, 2018 by trxr4kids
so many typos

[catrox14]

Let's be clear here. Metatron, Gadreel, Crowley and Abaddon are the villains of s9. Gadreel got some redemption at the end because he changed sides which only happened at the end of s9, doesn't change that he was a freaking villain from the beginning of s9 to like MetaFiction.

Dean WAS lying to Sam because "Ezekiel" WAS lying to Dean.  Gadreel knowingly misrepresent himself to Dean as being the angel Ezekiel who CASTIEL endorsed as a good and trustworthy; who would help until Castiel could get to the hospital to help Dean and Sam. That actually did happen in 9.1.

Gadreel did knowingly misrepresent himself to Sam as being Dean in order to get Sam to say yes. Dean only said that he would never say yes to "Ezekiel". Gadreel could have put on Death's face and said "Sorry Sam, but I changed my mind. It is not your time" , go with this angel and he will heal you".  He took Dean's face because it was the easiest route for him to GET INSIDE SAM'S BODY which was Gadreel's entire goal. 

This is the same Gadreel allied with fecking Lucifer to let him into the Garden and sought to hide from the angels because he fell right along with them and was an imposter. He lead Dean to believe that Sam would die.  Given that Gadreel was already inside Sam, Dean wasn't going to risk disbelieving Gadreel.  That isn't him "allowing" himself to be manipulated. He was straight up  being played.

IMO, it's disingenuous to suggest that Dean had some knowledge he didn't have; to ignore/pretend he wasn't starting to doubt his choice as early as the end of 9.1 and again in 9.2 and then again in 9.3; To ignore that Dean himself was being manipulated or that Dean has some ability to discern he was being manipulated so he could rebuff it.Damn that Dean Winchester for being both too smart and too dumb at the same time with not being able to read an angel's true visage on sight.

Funny thing, though. Just because Gadreel played nice for a little while, once he was captured, his true colors came out. He was malevolent, nasty, vicious and holding Sam hostage.

Let's talk about how Abaddon threatened to burn off Dean's tattoo and possess him and make him do terrible things and make him watch. That's when Dean was like okay, "Ezekiel" needs to go, but then "Ezekiel" once more manipulated Dean into thinking that Sam was still on the verge of death after he used his powers to kill all the demons in 9.2.

I swear, if I only went by this thread to understand the events of Sam being possessed by Gadreel, I would come away thinking the true villain of s9 was Dean.

I'm just waiting for someone to find the cut scene of Dean sitting in the bunker war room, plotting ways to lie to Sam whilst gleefully rubbing his hands together like Mr. Smithers or Dr. Strangelove or some other cliched villain, saying to himself "Yes. Yes. I have my Sammy all to myself now. And I will keep my Sammy in the dark by having Gadreel lie to me about being the Castiel endorsed good soldier, Ezekiel, when he was really Gadreel, the stupid/evil/duplicitous angel that let Lucifer into the Garden to corrupt Eve. And together we will keep Sam in the dark, so he never leaves me!! And then we can use him to kill Kevin too. MUUAHAHAHAHAAH." 

Am I being hyperbolic for effect? YES! Am I saying anything untrue or incorrect about Gadreel's actions in s9? NO I AM NOT.

[DeeDee79]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Let's be clear here. Metatron, Gadreel, Crowley and Abaddon are the villains of s9. Gadreel got some redemption at the end because he changed sides which only happened at the end of s9, doesn't change that he was a freaking villain from the beginning of s9 to like MetaFiction.

Dean WAS lying to Sam because "Ezekiel" WAS lying to Dean.  Gadreel knowingly misrepresent himself to Dean as being the angel Ezekiel who CASTIEL endorsed as a good and trustworthy; who would help until Castiel could get to the hospital to help Dean and Sam. That actually did happen in 9.1.

Gadreel did knowingly misrepresent himself to Sam as being Dean in order to get Sam to say yes. Dean only said that he would never say yes to "Ezekiel". Gadreel could have put on Death's face and said "Sorry Sam, but I changed my mind. It is not your time" , go with this angel and he will heal you".  He took Dean's face because it was the easiest route for him to GET INSIDE SAM'S BODY which was Gadreel's entire goal. 

This is the same Gadreel allied with fecking Lucifer to let him into the Garden and sought to hide from the angels because he fell right along with them and was an imposter. He lead Dean to believe that Sam would die.  Given that Gadreel was already inside Sam, Dean wasn't going to risk disbelieving Gadreel.  That isn't him "allowing" himself to be manipulated. He was straight up  being played.

IMO, it's disingenuous to suggest that Dean had some knowledge he didn't have; to ignore/pretend he wasn't starting to doubt his choice as early as the end of 9.1 and again in 9.2 and then again in 9.3; To ignore that Dean himself was being manipulated or that Dean has some ability to discern he was being manipulated so he could rebuff it.Damn that Dean Winchester for being both too smart and too dumb at the same time with not being able to read an angel's true visage on sight.

Funny thing, though. Just because Gadreel played nice for a little while, once he was captured, his true colors came out. He was malevolent, nasty, vicious and holding Sam hostage.

Let's talk about how Abaddon threatened to burn off Dean's tattoo and possess him and make him do terrible things and make him watch. That's when Dean was like okay, "Ezekiel" needs to go, but then "Ezekiel" once more manipulated Dean into thinking that Sam was still on the verge of death after he used his powers to kill all the demons in 9.2.

I swear, if I only went by this thread to understand the events of Sam being possessed by Gadreel, I would come away thinking the true villain of s9 was Dean.

I'm just waiting for someone to find the cut scene of Dean sitting in the bunker war room, plotting ways to lie to Sam whilst gleefully rubbing his hands together like Mr. Smithers or Dr. Strangelove or some other cliched villain, saying to himself "Yes. Yes. I have my Sammy all to myself now. And I will keep my Sammy in the dark by having Gadreel lie to me about being the Castiel endorsed good soldier, Ezekiel, when he was really Gadreel, the stupid/evil/duplicitous angel that let Lucifer into the Garden to corrupt Eve. And together we will keep Sam in the dark, so he never leaves me!! And then we can use him to kill Kevin too. MUUAHAHAHAHAAH." 

Am I being hyperbolic for effect? YES! Am I saying anything untrue or incorrect about Gadreel's actions in s9? NO I AM NOT.

Great ( and somewhat hilarious) post!

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I swear, if I only went by this thread to understand the events of Sam being possessed by Gadreel, I would come away thinking the true villain of s9 was Dean.

Quoting myself to clarify,

TBF, I think once Dean took on the Mark of Cain, he was borderline villainous because of the Mark's influence and creating bloodlust but not before that.

I was mostly addressing that it bugs the crap  out of me that Gadreel's manipulation of Dean immediately following the possession up to Kevin's death is basically dismissed when it was the single mitigating factor in Dean's choices. It didn't make Dean lying to Sam better. It's more that it was precisely why Dean was lying to Sam as time progressed. IMO, Dean was wrong to keep lying and at the same time I think it was pretty clear that he continued lying because of "Ezekiel's" insistence that Sam would die if he ejected him.  

But they can't have had Dean go off and take on the Mark without a really compelling reason for doing it and Kevin's death at Sam's possessed hands was the reason. 

I do wish they had kept Abaddon's threats to him more in play during the season for maybe why he brutally killed her.

Of course, given Buck Lemming's comments on Dean's killer DNA then I suppose they think he is a monster. I don't agree with them.

I think the Mark made Dean feel more isolated from humanity which would make sense IMO because the Mark of Cain in Real World lore, caused Cain to wander the earth alone for millenia.  I think that's why he pushed Sam further away as the season progressed. 

[trxr4kids]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was mostly addressing that it bugs the crap  out of me that Gadreel's manipulation of Dean immediately following the possession up to Kevin's death is basically dismissed when it was the single mitigating factor in Dean's choices. It didn't make Dean lying to Sam better. It's more that it was precisely why Dean was lying to Sam as time progressed. IMO, Dean was wrong to keep lying and at the same time I think it was pretty clear that he continued lying because of "Ezekiel's" insistence that Sam would die if he ejected him. 

I also think that had Dean tried to tell Sam earlier, Gadreel would have prevented it, he had an agenda from day one or else he wouldn't have lied about who he was. Dean called on any angel to help knowing it was risk but at that point he didn't think there was anything to lose. It seems to me pretty much everyone but Dean had an agenda of some kind for S8 and S9a.

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean WAS lying to Sam because "Ezekiel" WAS lying to Dean.  Gadreel knowingly misrepresent himself to Dean as being the angel Ezekiel who CASTIEL endorsed as a good and trustworthy; who would help until Castiel could get to the hospital to help Dean and Sam. That actually did happen in 9.1.

 

Dean allowed Sam to be lied to from the get go. Then, as soon as Sam was reasonably Sam, Dean lied some more. And kept going on that vein. In fact, we have Holy Terror for some interesting backstory about what Dean's been doing:
 

Quote

 

SAM (picking up, midway through a sentence)
— you know, I was gonna say, it seems like it's getting really quiet out there, you know? Not a peep from the angels, even Buddy Boyle goes off the air and stops recruiting for them.

DEAN (adjusting to a sudden change in conversational partners)
Obviously calm before the storm.

SAM (unconvinced)
Yeah, maybe.

SAM notices something outside and stares in startlement.

DEAN
What?

SAM
That sign said "Fort Collins, 50 miles."

DEAN
So?

SAM
So, last time I looked, like, 12 seconds ago, uh, Fort Collins was a hundred miles.

DEAN (searching for something to say)
Well, hey, man, ever since that goddess got her hooks into you, you know—

SAM (getting agitated)
No, it's more than Vesta! I mean, this kind of thing's been happening to me. Like, like, there are chunks of time just … missing. Like there are times when I'm... not here.

DEAN
Well, like I've said—

SAM
Yes, the trials. I know. I heard you. I heard you when you said it the last week and the week before that and the week before that.

DEAN
Yeah, because ... damn straight the trials. They whacked you, man. You're not up to warp speed yet, okay? But you will be.
(Smiles at SAM.)
Would I lie?

SAM looks back at DEAN, in the dark.

 

 

So a long period of time has passed where Sam has felt confused. He was already having difficulties before this, just that this instance really cements what's going on. Especially the whole 'would I lie' line. Sam should know his brother well enough to know, yes, Dean does lie. Unfortunately, Sam has zero chance of knowing what's happening to him before it's too late.

I really like Dean, but I can't defend this. Dean didn't need to wait around for Cas to call to know that sketchy things be happening. He already knew sketchy things were going down. He's obviously uncomfortable, making excuses later on in the episode to Cas when it becomes apparent Sam's being lied to. Cas being Cas, lets it slide because he trusts Dean. When Gadreel stops Dean yet again from making things right with Sam after Vesta in the previous episode, he should have already been pulling out the stops to slow down the crazy train before it totally derailed. 

I am totally willing to buy at the start of the season that Dean, out of desperation, guilt, grief and a lot of other bad things, does something stupid to save Sam. Totally fine. What I can't defend is Dean just bending to every whim of Gadreel. Doesn't matter if he knew the angel was a lying sack or not. Dean knew what he did was wrong. He knew he did it for the wrong reasons. Dean should be smarter than this, but instead lets it just go as if it won't get worse when he knows this kind of deal making bites them in the ass. Cas should have been the tipping point and the major red flag, but Dean kicks him to the curb. In fact, Dean kicks him to the curb again in Holy Terror, which allows Cas to gain the important info dump through his being kidnapped, and then Dean is still stupid. Why he wouldn't safe guard himself or Kevin with a potentially hostile angel when he knows what they are capable of.

I hate the plot line for a variety of reasons personally, and I hate it even more because it could have worked if handled a differently. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Airmid said:

ro chance of knowing what's happening to him before it's too late.

I really like Dean, but I can't defend this. Dean didn't need to wait around for Cas to call to know that sketchy things be happening. He already knew sketchy things were going down. He's obviously uncomfortable, making excuses later on in the episode to Cas when it becomes apparent Sam's being lied to. Cas being Cas, lets it slide because he trusts Dean. When Gadreel stops Dean yet again from making things right with Sam after Vesta in the previous episode, he should have already been pulling o

Each time Dean was going to tell Sam what was going on, Gadreel basically extended and escalated things.

He consistently manipulated Dean.I just can't really understand why that is consistently dismissed other than to make sure Dean is the worst Dean

[Katy M]

Yes, DEan was manipulated by Gadreel, but he's still responsible for his own choices. Just as Sam was manipulated by Ruby, but still responsible for his own choices.  I don't think Dean is the wors person (or fictional character) in the world.  but, I will never think that was a right choice, any more than I think drinking demon blood was a right choice, or taking the mark of Cain, or using the Book of the Damned, or...

[companionenvy]

IMO, Dean was justified in saving Sam in the moment, but could have tried a lot harder to let Sam know what was going on after the fact. Yes, Gadreel probably would have stopped him, but Dean also wasn't pushing that hard. The fact that he didn't tell Cas what was going on -- besides being unfair to Cas, given that it required Dean to kick him out of the bunker -- suggests to me that Dean on some level recognized the sketchiness of the situation pretty quickly and didn't want to admit to himself that he was in over his head. Not to mention he didn't want to risk Sam kicking out Gadreel even at the point at which Sam would have been competent to make the decision. And yes, the "would I lie" comment was pretty uncalled for, considering. So I find Dean pretty sympathetic in S9, but he still screwed up.

trxr, I love your post about cutting the boys some slack on the sacrificing the world for each other thing, which I agree that actually haven't knowingly done that frequently, with Sam using the Book of the Damned to free Dean from the mark -- and, to a lesser extent, Dean killing Death (he had the mark at the time, but I suspect he would have done the same thing without it) -- being the only times I would really say they risked the world for each other. I also think it bears remembering that Sam and Dean are only in a position where they wind up endangering the world because they've taken on  the awesome task of protecting the world, which puts them in circumstances where their mistakes have massive consequences. Do you honestly think Jodi wouldn't do something that put a civilian at risk (not certainty) of harm in order to protect Claire or Alex, or probably even Sam and Dean? It is just that Jodi, so far is not playing at the kind of level where cosmic consequences will come into play. 

It is worth noting that on the two occasions when it came down to a clear "I die or the world dies" scenario - stopping Lucifer and stopping Amara -- Dean and Sam both accepted the other's death. Even Sam using the Book, while risky as all get out, wasn't a case in which he was positive that horrific consequences would be unleashed.

Of course, none of this means the drastic lengths they are willing to take to save one another -- up to and including sacrificing themselves -- are healthy. As I do think Dean sold his soul mostly for Sam and only secondarily because of his own survivor's guilt over John, I consider that especially horrifying, as it involved trading one person's human life for the other's eternal torment. But whatever the showrunners think, I consider the "brodependency broke the world" shtick overblown.

[trxr4kids]

9 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

It is worth noting that on the two occasions when it came down to a clear "I die or the world dies" scenario - stopping Lucifer and stopping Amara -- Dean and Sam both accepted the other's death.

 

9 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But whatever the showrunners think, I consider the "brodependency broke the world" shtick overblown.

I couldn't agree more!

[trxr4kids]

Speaking of the brodependency, I'm of the opinion that cannon doesn't support it's existence other than through some off handed dialogue here and there. 

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Even Sam using the Book, while risky as all get out, wasn't a case in which he was positive that horrific consequences would be unleashed.

Sam did know because Death told him.  He had time to call off the spell. 

22 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

and, to a lesser extent, Dean killing Death (he had the mark at the time, but I suspect he would have done the same thing without it) -

Dean killing death had nothing to do with the darkness being released. 

 

23 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I also think it bears remembering that Sam and Dean are only in a position where they wind up endangering the world because they've taken on  the awesome task of protecting the world,

Most times they're in a place where its necessary because they're the ones who caused it in the first place. 

Unfortunately, it looks like we (general we) are headed down that rabbit hole again with the Winchesters wanting to rescue Mary.

[Airmid]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Each time Dean was going to tell Sam what was going on, Gadreel basically extended and escalated things.

He consistently manipulated Dean.I just can't really understand why that is consistently dismissed other than to make sure Dean is the worst Dean

Personally for me, it's just bad writing. Dean's not some helpless princess in a tower, waving a hanky and crying out for a savior. 

Dean is a hunter who's been around the block. He knows deals go bad and can go bad fast. He has resources - Cas, Kevin and Jody. He has an entire bunker and an arsenal of sweet lies and cocky smiles to get Sam to lumber off for a while so he can scheme and research. In the end, he should have been more worried, and more focused and making sure Sam was alright and making that a reality instead of hoping his built up foundation of lies wouldn't crack anymore.

When he was too ashamed and terrified to tell his BFF that he had gotten Sam possessed by an angel, and Sam had no clue or say in the matter, that's when a step back and better planning was needed. Instead, Dean comes off like a rather manipulative, needy, prick, easily subdued by a bastard of an angel. 

That's what I don't like, simply because the character deserved to be written better and smarter, at least for me on that entire storyline. YMMV

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Yes, DEan was manipulated by Gadreel, but he's still responsible for his own choices. Just as Sam was manipulated by Ruby, but still responsible for his own choices.  I don't think Dean is the wors person (or fictional character) in the world.  but, I will never think that was a right choice, any more than I think drinking demon blood was a right choice, or taking the mark of Cain, or using the Book of the Damned, or...

 

There is a lot of room between judging and defending Dean for being an innocent flower who is not responsible for anything he did (which is not my position) and judging Dean as a gaslighting rapist. He's not either of those ends of the spectrum IMO.

Dean went ahead with a bad idea built out of good intentions and the never ending Prime Directive. What I am saying is that Dean made a wrong decision and Gadreel jumped on that decision and played Dean like a fiddle because he had more power than anyone over Sam's life at that time.

I'm not even being snarky here. Given the givens, and that Dean can't undo his choices, do you think Dean deserves to be punished for his actions? And if so, what should that punishment be?

[gonzosgirrl]

Yeah, you know what. Never mind.

Edited February 14, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[companionenvy]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Most times they're in a place where its necessary because they're the ones who caused it in the first place. 

 

I disagree when it comes to apocalypse mark 1 in that the angels/demons were going to attempt to start the Apocalypse no matter what Sam and Dean did. We see that clearly when Michael ultimately takes Adam as his vessel- while they wanted it to be the Winchesters, there's no way that they would have just thrown up their hands and said "oh, well" if Dean hadn't made the deal at Cold Oak, Sam had stayed dead, and Dean had never been to hell. Actually, who knows what the powers that be would have done with Sam if he had stayed dead post S-2. They could have just resurrected him, but I suspect they wouldn't have done so without doing a number on his head first.

To me, saying that the Winchesters (especially Dean, but even Sam) are responsible for starting the Apocalypse would be like saying a person would be responsible if they pushed the power button on the TV remote and it activated a bomb that blew up their apartment complex. Yes, they'd be technically responsible in the sense that their hand touching the button was the proximate cause, but the person responsible is whoever rigged the remote to set off a bomb. In a court of law, and morally, the person who pushed the button would be blameless.

Sam and Dean are accountable for the things they did wrong along the way (namely, Sam killing the nurse), but not for the apocalypse. I maintain that had pretty much any other pair of brothers been the designated vessels, the world would have been toast. Sam and Dean really never had the option of not playing along.

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean went ahead with a bad idea built out of good intentions and the never ending Prime Directive.

 

I wish the show would address this more.  Because I think its too simplistic to say that Dean is needy and can't live without Sam.  (not saying its not a factor but I don't  think its the main one). 

Because what the show refuses to acknowledge is years of emotional abuse that John put Dean through.   Dean was made from a very young age to put Sam's needs first and told he was responsible for Sam's well being. That if something happened it was Dean's fault.  So I can easily see Dean thinking he failed Sam because of Sam doing the trials instead of him.

It's also hours after Sacrifice. Where Sam demanded Dean put him first over and above everything.  IMO, much different then what John did to him. 

Its not wonder the prime directive kicked in.  IMO, Sam doesn't get to accuse Dean of not wanting to be alone when Sam demands that Dean dump his friends, or makes Dean feel bad for having a support system outside of Sam.

Edited February 14, 2018 by ILoveReading