“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Whatever exactly Bart meant, the situations still wouldn't be precisely comparable, and neither are Sam and Dean. I'm not sure that the fact that Dean takes a demon's bait and Sam didn't is a poor reflection on Sam. 

Take Dean out of the equation.  Sam still and again lets the insult to his brother slide. Don't care who said it, or why. It's Sam's default position.

And what it says about the brothers to me is, I know which one I'd want to be my friend. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Pondlass1]

Dean has become the neanderthal.  I blame writers and show runners mostly, but also Jensen to a certain extent because he seems willing to go along with a lot of the physical comedy (at which he's a bit too brilliant).

It's odd because writing gives Dean instincts that seem to be missing in Sam.  Dean has gotten them out of more situations via imagination and quick thinking than Sam and Sam is usually the follower (of the wrong group).  I'd definitely peg Dean as The Leader.  

Sam mostly did research but has now been elevated to super brainy brilliance.  Now Dean passes the broken Colt to Sam and says 'Can YOU fix it?'   

That line annoyed me last night, although I don't know if Sam actually regards himself as the smart one.  Maybe Dean does?  Dean thinks he's 90% crap, although I get the impression Dean looks at that as a character thing and not anything to do with his hunting skills.  I think he's pretty cool with his own abilities.

 Dean's hunting talents and intuition have never been acknowledged by another character not ever.  Neither has his depression and torment for that matter....

[companionenvy]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean's hunting talents and intuition have never been acknowledged by another character not ever.  Neither has his depression and torment for that matter....

Only if we're going to dismiss all the times that Dean's good qualities have been acknowledged and find a reason they don't count. Off the top of my head, It is canon that Sam has

-called Dean a "fricken genius,"

- told him that he'd rather have him by his side injured than any other hunter whole.

-  said that he wishes Dean would worry about himself rather than Sam (in reference to getting Dean out of the deal during "Red Sky at Morning.")

- told him that he lasted longer in hell than anyone else would have

- explicitly said "Thank you...for always being there for me. For - having my back." (Bad Boys).

So, the idea that Sam has never praised or thanked Dean is simply not true. And that's just Sam, and that's just with thinking about it for a few minutes. 

[Aeryn13]

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-called Dean a "fricken genius,"

In the butter-up speech. Where, the show took pains, in the same episode and the two afterwards to make sure Dean was portrayed as dumb as possible. So, that was more like insult to injury there.

Quote

- told him that he'd rather have him by his side injured than any other hunter whole.

The Dean as one of the adoring flunkies in the General Sam Winchester speech scene? Another big giant insult scene IMO. Sure, Sam wanted Dean to come with him as a foot soldier under his command. Everything about that leadership scene was horrible to me, everything.

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- told him that he lasted longer in hell than anyone else would have

 And again the show took pains to make it clear how Super!John lasted so much longer and Dean was a little wimp with his measly 40 years. Not to mention when Sam was amped up under the Siren spell, he changed his tune to "boohoo". 

As a Dean-fan, none of those things was actually a boon to the character. 

The one scene in the show I would hold up as a positive example and they haven`t completely reneged on (yet) is what John told him in his deathbed speech. It was the only acknowledgment in the entire show that said Dean is strong. And didn`t take it back or completely invalidate it shortly after. 

On the other hand, the "Dean is weak" scenes are legion.    

[Wayward Son]

Let’s be honest, Dean is a grown ass man and not some delicate little flower incapable of defending himself. He was sitting right there. If he had major issues with Bart’s comment he is more than capable of refuting it himself.

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

Let’s be honest, Dean is a grown ass man and not some delicate little flower incapable of defending himself. He was sitting right there. If he had major issues with Bart’s comment he is more than capable of refuting it himself.

I don't think Dean had issues with the comment.  (I've only watched the episode once).  It's ME the viewer that has issues.  I don't get the impression Dean thinks he is stupid.  Dean would consider the person making that remark as being the stupid one.  Underestimate Dean at your peril.

It's the the writing that's galling.  This slow but insidious drift towards Dean the grunt and Sam the brain.  Dean is woken from sleep - he's like a cat always on guard, instantaneously the gun is cocked and pointed.  Always the hunter.  But then Dean growls like a bear and it's treated as a joke.  And Dean is devalued again.

I know you're not a Dean fan, Wayward, so it's hard to explain...

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Only if we're going to dismiss all the times that Dean's good qualities have been acknowledged and find a reason they don't count. Off the top of my head, It is canon that Sam has

-called Dean a "fricken genius,"

- told him that he'd rather have him by his side injured than any other hunter whole.

-  said that he wishes Dean would worry about himself rather than Sam (in reference to getting Dean out of the deal during "Red Sky at Morning.")

- told him that he lasted longer in hell than anyone else would have

- explicitly said "Thank you...for always being there for me. For - having my back." (Bad Boys).

So, the idea that Sam has never praised or thanked Dean is simply not true. And that's just Sam, and that's just with thinking about it for a few minutes. 

No one has said that Sam doesn't praise Dean. We are saying he doesn't praise nor defend Dean to OTHER PEOPLE.

And even some of Sam's praising is to butter up Dean for his ask.  I give him one and that was him saying to Lucifer "I always bet on Dean" (which is factually not true but that was a point when Sam defended Dean. Not about his intellect but his willingness to save Sam.

[Aeryn13]

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Let’s be honest, Dean is a grown ass man and not some delicate little flower incapable of defending himself. He was sitting right there. If he had major issues with Bart’s comment he is more than capable of refuting it himself.

I think in a scene like that it would reflect more poorly on a character if they said something themselves. Those are scenes tailor-made for the other person to say something. Or at least give the stink-eye. 

But like I said, I would even prefer it if someone slandered Dean in his absence and Sam said something to that. .

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I don't think Dean had issues with the comment.  (I've only watched the episode once).  It's ME the viewer that has issues. 

Same for me. I don`t even give a flying fuck if the character is offended. I am offended, that is enough for me. In fact when I am not offended and the character is? It doesn`t bother me so the opposite holds true as well.  

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It's the the writing that's galling.  This slow but insidious drift towards Dean the grunt and Sam the brain.  Dean is woken from sleep - he's like a cat always on guard, instantaneously the gun is cocked and pointed.  Always the hunter.  But then Dean growls like a bear and it's treated as a joke.  And Dean is devalued again.

So much is carricature now. And there isn`t a strong enough balance on the other side. 

If Dean had well-written scenes where he can show his smarts and have scenes where he is a badass then the OTT goofy comic moments could be written off more easily. But instead I get very few of the former and way too much of the latter.   

[Lady Calypso]

Just now, Pondlass1 said:

I don't think Dean had issues with the comment.  (I've only watched the episode once).  It's ME the viewer that has issues.  I don't get the impression Dean thinks he is stupid.  Dean would consider the person making that remark as being the stupid one.  Underestimate Dean at your peril.

It's the the writing that's galling.  This slow but insidious drift towards Dean the grunt and Sam the brain.  Dean is woken from sleep - he's like a cat always on guard, instantaneously the gun is cocked and pointed.  Always the hunter.  But then Dean growls like a bear and it's treated as a joke.  And Dean is devalued again.

I'm both a Sam and Dean fan for various reasons (which is why I haven't participated in this particular thread) but I was even bothered by the particular comment. It bothered me that both boys sat and took the comment at face value with, I think, no reaction to it. Dean may not be book smart in the way that Sam is, but he is certainly smart. I mean, he's more street smart, which is incredibly helpful with the lives that they live. It's not that Dean can't also do his research, either. I think Dean has grown to develop some research skills, though not to the extent of Sam's, just like Sam has developed some of Dean's skills out on the field, though not to the extent that Dean has.

If Bart had said "Sam, you're the 'book' smart one", then maybe I wouldn't have had as much of an issue. And about three seconds before that line, I genuinely thought Bart was impressed by Dean...and then that got shattered with his jab at Dean. 

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't think Dean had issues with the comment.  (I've only watched the episode once).  It's ME the viewer that has issues.  I don't get the impression Dean thinks he is stupid.  Dean would consider the person making that remark as being the stupid one.  Underestimate Dean at your peril.

It's the the writing that's galling.  This slow but insidious drift towards Dean the grunt and Sam the brain.  Dean is woken from sleep - he's like a cat always on guard, instantaneously the gun is cocked and pointed.  Always the hunter.  But then Dean growls like a bear and it's treated as a joke.  And Dean is devalued again.

I know you're not a Dean fan, Wayward, so it's hard to explain...

My comment was more geared towards those who are acting as though Sam is the worst in the world for saying nothing. 

 

Perhaps I’m just influenced by my own friendship circle. I have several friends who would appreciate me defending them when they’re absent (as Dean did for Sam later in the episode), but would be rather annoyed if I did it while they were there as, in their words, they’re quite capable of handling things themselves. 

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Let’s be honest, Dean is a grown ass man and not some delicate little flower incapable of defending himself. He was sitting right there. If he had major issues with Bart’s comment he is more than capable of refuting it himself.

And that's not what this is about. No Dean doesn't need it but Sam should do it anyway. It's about showing a united front against a common enemy.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

think Dean has grown to develop some research skills, though not to the extent of Sam's, just like Sam has developed some of Dean's skills out on the field, though not to the extent that Dean has.

Dean had research skills all along. Back in the pilot, Dean was using the computer at the library, Sam came in and shoved Dean aside because he wasn't doing it quickly enough or whatever. Dean is a reader and always had a newspaper with him looking for cases. Dean had John's journal. Dean did plenty of reading and research in s1 and s2 and those skills were ceded to give Bobby something to do. And suddenly Dean became allergic to reading when the plot required it. Or if he did go back to research it's because someone made him do it. That is a complete recharacterization of Dean for other characters and plot and it annoys the hell out of me.

If I started watching the show now, I would think Dean is the hot headed, violent stupid grunt who drinks too much and Sam is the kind empathetic super smart one who might need some fight training. Like seriously how does he get his ass kicked by that dude in 13.08.

[Pondlass1]

6 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Dean may not be book smart in the way that Sam is, but he is certainly smart. I mean, he's more street smart, which is incredibly helpful with the lives that they live. It's not that Dean can't also do his research, either. I think Dean has grown to develop some research skills, though not to the extent of Sam's, just like Sam has developed some of Dean's skills out on the field, though not to the extent that Dean has.

 Dean is book smart, but he's also an impatient man.  He's action man.  Sitting and researching is not his thing, but if necessary he'll do it and do it well.  Dean seems to have pulled the 'instincts' gene.  And he wants to be out there in the trenches.  The brothers balance each other fairly well - but just like Mary is suddenly super-hunter, they're really bonking us over the head with Brilliant Bookish Sam.

I was irritated by the comment.  But I wasn't much bothered than Sam didn't react or defend.  They're not in the playground.

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And that's not what this is about. No Dean doesn't need it but Sam should do it anyway. It's about showing a united front against a common enemy.

Or maybe Sam has respect for Dean and doesn’t feel the need to mollycoddle him by assuming Dean is incapable of speaking up for himself. 

 

Maybe the writers are keeping balance in the world ;) . They assume the worst of Dean, the extreme Dean faction lie in wait to scrutinise and criticise every teeny tiny thing Sam does and the anti-Cas Bronlie crowd are there to do the exact same thing to Cas. 

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My comment was more geared towards those who are acting as though Sam is the worst in the world for saying nothing. 

It's not because we think Sam is the worst for not saying anything IN THAT situation but more that it's a pattern with Sam throughout the series. So at this point there is no reason for me to think Sam will ever do it.

It doesn't make Sam look like a very good brother about those things.

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Perhaps I’m just influenced by my own friendship circle. I have several friends who would appreciate me defending them when they’re absent (as Dean did for Sam later in the episode), but would be rather annoyed if I did it while they were there as, in their words, they’re quite capable of handling things themselve

The thing is that you (general you) can do both. Like you can at least stink eye someone for saying a shitty thing. Sam doesn't even do that. If they gave us a reaction shot of Sam giving someone the stink eye for insulting his brother, I wouldn't complain, but we don't get that.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Or maybe Sam has respect for Dean and doesn’t feel the need to mollycoddle him by assuming Dean is incapable of speaking up for himself. 

 

Maybe the writers are keeping balance in the world ;) . They assume the worst of Dean, the extreme Dean faction lie in wait to scrutinise and criticise every teeny tiny thing Sam does and the anti-Cas Bronlie crowd are there to do the exact same thing to Cas. 

Since when is throwing a stink eye or saying something like "Dude......" molly coddling? LOL.  Throwing a common enemy a stinkeye isn't molly coddling. It's showing the enemy that the Winchesters are united and if you fuck with one, you fuck with both. 

Giving the audience a stink eye reaction from Sam would do wonders to show that Sam has respect for Dean enough to be bothered when someone directly insults his brother. But I'm left thinking that since he doesn't, maybe it doesn't bother him at all. Which says a lot about Sam.

Edited December 1, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean had research skills all along. Back in the pilot, Dean was using the computer at the library, Sam came in and shoved Dean aside because he wasn't doing it quickly enough or whatever. Dean is a reader and always had a newspaper with him looking for cases. Dean had John's journal. Dean did plenty of reading and research in s1 and s2 and those skills were ceded to give Bobby something to do. And suddenly Dean became allergic to reading when the plot required it. Or if he did go back to research it's because someone made him do it. That is a complete recharacterization of Dean for other characters and plot and it annoys the hell out of me.

If I started watching the show now, I would think Dean is the hot headed, violent stupid grunt who drinks too much and Sam is the kind empathetic super smart one who might need some fight training. Like seriously how does he get his ass kicked by that dude in 13.08.

So, so much this. The fact that Dean was on his own quite a lot while Sam was at Stanford, and managed just fine, seems to have disappeared like Chuck Cunningham. The writers have just fallen into this easy, lazy pattern of Dean the Neanderthal and Sam the Brain.

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So, so much this. The fact that Dean was on his own quite a lot while Sam was at Stanford, and managed just fine, seems to have disappeared like Chuck Cunningham. The writers have just fallen into this easy, lazy pattern of Dean the Neanderthal and Sam the Brain.

This has been one of my biggest problems with the writing of Dean since Dabb took over.  It's gone back to brain vs brawn (although for awhile Dean wasn't even the brawn). 

I might not have minded to much if the episode had given Dean a chance to show off his smarts but it really didn't.  Sam gets the smart one comment, Sam is shown to be translating the spell, Sam gets another brainy moment in Shrike's office with getting to explain the difference in fangs to a guy whose supposedly a supernatural collector.  Then Sam comes up with the solution to the darts. 

I kept waiting for Dean to be the one to solve the problem of how to get past the darts..  (Using Shrike as a shield was something I thought of immediately.)  It's been shown in the past that he's really good at patterns and symbols, so I kept hoping that maybe he'd figure it out.  But nope.  Dean basically just stands there while Sam comes up with a very Dean like solution to the problem. 

Then Smash shows up and figures out how to open the safe.  We get Dean almost blowing their cover to make a comment on shoes. 

Jensen was great with the physical comedy but he really didn't do much else in this ep.

I don't think Glynn has much respect for the character. 

As for Sam not standing up for Dean, IMO, its part of a larger pattern.  Sam doesn't defend his brother to outside people, and when he stands up for Dean its usually disregarded later (like Sam's "Dean your a genius speech) or when Sam thanks Dean for looking out of him, and then Dean tries to look out for Sam (Trials and Demon Blood), Sam resents it and sees Dean as babying him.  So does he really appreciate it?

What makes it worse is that when someone insulted Sam, Dean immediately jumped to his defense.  It make Sam's lack of action stand out even more. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Actually I took Bart's comment to mean San was smart enough to see the Big picture and take the deal, where Dean was all demon bad, Dean smash! 

Mileage clearly vary on that, but fact remains, Sam once again let it slide. Dean didn't.

I did, too, except that for the most part, when is taking a deal from a demon ever really smart? So in my opinion, a demon inferring that Sam potentially would take a deal - especially one implying "I obviously want you to do something shady for me, and maybe I might not double-cross you if you're lucky" - over Dean is actually implying that Bart knew Dean wouldn't be that stupid, but maybe he could convince Sam to be... And, in my opinion, Sam knows this - because duh, demon, so: not trustworthy - so defending Dean would actually - to me - be saying "wait, my brother is, too, just as stupid enough to consider a deal with a demon."

And in general, that it is evil characters who insinuate that Sam is the "smarter" one - generally while wanting to convince Sam to do something stupid - to me, puts those the statements in a questionable light, because really it is saying that the bad guys are implying that Sam is "smarter" because he'll more likely do what they want.

If this was coming consistently from not evil characters, then I might see a point, but in general, I don't see non-evil characters questioning Dean's intelligence any more than they do Sam's - and that includes Bobby, who's actual most direct intelligence questioning*** that I remember was of Sam's intelligence - not Dean's.

And perhaps the most intelligent of the demons Sam and Dean deal with obviously thinks Dean is the smarter one - hence the nicknames "Moose" and Squirrel."

So once again while many people see this as the show praising Sam as the smarter one - which less face it, might give Sam something since in general Dean is shown to have better instincts, better hunting skills, etc. - it at the same time is putting that in a questionable light since it is evil characters generally trying to manipulate the brothers who are saying so. I sometimes accuse the show of damning Sam with faint praise, and for me, this kind of thing is often an example.

The fact that it turns out that except for saving Smash, Sam and Dean didn't really accomplish much - in that they didn't even get the spell they were trying for - to me is just a point in the direction that maybe the smart thing to do would have been to not even consider taking the deal in the first place, so... as I said, damning Sam with faint praise there. Because to me, a demon implying that Sam is smarter because he'll be more likely to take a deal that has the large possibility to go sideways is not really painting Sam as the smart one for considering it. And then the Show showing that taking the deal was in fact a questionable strategy - and having, if I remember correctly, Sam being the main one convincing Dean to take the deal - is not the Show commenting on Dean's lesser intelligence, but showing that Dean is maybe the one who is less driven by his emotions and actually the smarter and/or more strategic of the two, but others' miles obviously vary.

*** And by direct I mean a statement that had nothing to do with a choice being made or a reckless action being questioned, but just a straight "he's not smart enough to understand what you are talking about" statement. I honestly don't remember Bobby ever saying something like that about Dean, but he has for Sam.

[Whodunnit]

To put out firey paper do not blow on paper.

Headdesk. I  guess we know who got the idiot ball this week. Made worse by the fact that he was referred as the smart one within the same episode.

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

To put out firey paper do not blow on paper.

Headdesk. I  guess we know who got the idiot ball this week. Made worse by the fact that he was referred as the smart one within the same episode.

I disagree because when someone insulted Sam's intelligence  Dean immediately got defensive whereas Sam sat there in silence.  Plus, Sam got multiple opportunities to show off his smarts, with translating the spell, with the fangs and getting past the darts. 

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree because when someone insulted Sam's intelligence  Dean immediately got defensive whereas Sam sat there in silence.  Plus, Sam got multiple opportunities to show off his smarts, with translating the spell, with the fangs and getting past the darts. 

I don't think Dean could have cared less that Grab called Sam's intelligence into question.  I think he was taking issue with the fact that Grab basically saying it was no biggie if he ended up dead.

[ILoveReading]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think Dean could have cared less that Grab called Sam's intelligence into question.  I think he was taking issue with the fact that Grab basically saying it was no biggie if he ended up dead.

For me it doesn't matter why Dean did it.  Just the fact that once again we have Dean defending Sam while Sam doesn't' defend Dean.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

For me it doesn't matter why Dean did it.  Just the fact that once again we have Dean defending Sam while Sam doesn't' defend Dean.

Well, I don't remember anyone suggesting Dean might die this episode, but whatever.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Well, I don't remember anyone suggesting Dean might die this episode, but whatever.

No but someone did insult Dean's intelligence and once again Sam let it slide. 

[MysteryGuest]

I think part of the issue is that this is simply their dynamic.  Sam is Dean's little brother, so he will protect and defend him to anyone and everyone because that's what he does.  It's almost a knee-jerk reaction at this point.  Sam just doesn't have that same reaction because it's not something he grew up doing.  As grown men, they each have the other's back when they're in trouble, but I just think that Dean is never truly going to give up the big brother attitude that Sam needs his protection.

[Pondlass1]

Dean's hard on the outside but he's pretty damn vulnerable on the inside.  That, and his unhealthy and dysfunctional co-dependent relationship with his brother, are his two main downfalls.  

Sam, on the other hand, seems to get over things fairly easily.  He has hissy fits and stomps off, but he gets over it.  Dean drags it all around like an anchor. The violence of hunting - and probably alcohol and sex - are his release.  Just imagine how freeing it must have been for Dean to be a demon?  And not even your average demon... Dean was a fun demon.  Couldn't care less about ruling hell (much to Crowley's chagrin)

What I'm trying to impart is that I don't get the impression Sam ever fully grasps what's going on deep inside his brother.  He doesn't understand Dean really, because he doesn't deal the same way.   He knows Dean's  bluster and smart mouth are a cover and he's seen Dean depressed and alcoholic, but it doesn't seem to register how deep it all goes.  He's said some pretty cutting things to Dean when Dean's been down.  

I don't blame writing here.  It's the way the brothers are and Jensen's more able (it seems to me) to image inner suffering and torment.  

Sam would not defend Dean against insults.  But  in a similar situation Dean's hackles would rise. It's their natures/.

Of course, I realize Sam/Jared fans will see things maybe a bit differently. LOL. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just look at the examples over the course of the show how Dean lights up/gets shy/doesn't believe/fronts gruffly when he's paid a rare compliment. Imagine how nice it would for him to get that from his brother once in a while (when he wasn't dead or dying, or Sam wasn't actively trying to get something from him). Necessary? No. But this fan sure would like to see it.

[catrox14]

Yes, Dean is the protective parent/brother when it comes to Sam and if Dean is reacting to someone insulting Sam's intellect, or being cavalier about Sam's possible death, he will jump to Sam's defense whether Sam is there or not. IMO at this point if Sam takes it as an insult for Dean to behave protectively in Sam's presence  that says more about Sam's insecurities than Dean. Like honestly, why would Sam take it as disrespect for Dean to defend him? Although, given Sam's history with making terrible decisions re demons, maybe Dean SHOULD be defending Sam for Sam's best interest.

Sam only occasionally to others has defended Dean's life. He did it with Osiris even though that was kind of about Sam as much as Dean, re guilt trips. Then he defended Dean to Lucifer. But I'm still looking for examples of Sam acting protectively towards Dean whether Dean is around or not.

I'm a younger sibling and I spent a lot of time defending older siblings so maybe that's just my protective instincts in general.

To me, Sam being younger is no excuse for not defending Dean more than he is shown doing in the narrative. And if the writers are saying it's because Sam is younger and not used to being protective or what have you, that seems to have changed with Jack who he has defended to Dean and protected from Dean.

[MysteryGuest]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me, Sam being younger is no excuse for not defending Dean more than he is shown doing in the narrative. And if the writers are saying it's because Sam is younger and not used to being protective or what have you, that seems to have changed with Jack who he has defended to Dean and protected from Dean.

I don't think that age has much to do with it, specifically.  It's simply been the dynamic of their relationship all of their lives.  I think Sam can feel protective of an innocent like Jack because it gives him a chance to flex his nurturing muscles.  But he's never had to be a nurturer with Dean.  It was always been the other way around so it doesn't come so naturally.  This doesn't mean he doesn't care about him, it's just that he's used to Dean taking care of himself.  Would it be nice to hear Sam genuinely defend Dean's intellect to someone else...absolutely, but I don't think the writers have the sensitivity to even think of something like that.

I also think that in this particular episode, when they showed Dean reacting to Grab's comment, it was more to showcase just how not in control of his own body he was.  He was prepared to go toe to toe with Grab, but his arm had other ideas.  So partly for humor, partly Dean's normal reaction to anyone dissing Sam.  It honestly didn't bother me.

[companionenvy]

I think it would have been lousy writing for Sam to "defend" Dean in that scene. The idea that Dean would feel insecure because a random demon called Sam "the smart one" -- a very predictable jab given Sam's academic history -- is insulting, and in the context of a very serious discussion about whether or not to make a deal with a demon in return for a nephilim retrieval spell, Sam saying something like "Dean's smart too!" would have been awkward and kind of absurd. 

It isn't like Sam and Dean were working with another hunter who seriously suggested that Dean was dumb while kicking back drinks after a case. 

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't blame writing here.  It's the way the brothers are and Jensen's more able (it seems to me) to image inner suffering and torment.  

Sam would not defend Dean against insults.  But  in a similar situation Dean's hackles would rise. It's their natures/.

Of course, I realize Sam/Jared fans will see things maybe a bit differently. LOL. 

As a matter of fact, it is the writing which creates how Sam & Dean speak and act. LOL.

I would argue that the way it is written we hear and see much more of Dean's thoughts and emotions than Sam's. Because of that we're much more attuned to Dean's feelings. Dean's emotions toward Sam are complicated; he needs Sam, needs to feel like he is Sam's protector. IMO it's not simply an altruistic response, it's more like to Dean they are one person and he feels any attack on Sam is an attack on him.

We see much less what's going on inside Sam, so he seems more independent or withdrawn.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It isn't like Sam and Dean were working with another hunter who seriously suggested that Dean was dumb while kicking back drinks after a case. 

Well, it`s not like I could see Sam saying something in that scenario either or even give the other hunter the stink-eye. Even if Dean himself wasn`t there and the other hunter just made a remark like "well, we all know in hunting circles he ain`t the smart one out of you two" to just Sam, I do not see him defend Dean. Because he agrees with the sentiment overall. I see it basically in no scenario. 

Maybe - but that`s a big if - I could see Sam say something if another hunter (that Sam didn`t like)  infered that he, the hunter, was smarter than Dean, maybe. If it was someone Sam did like, then no as well. But the inference that Sam is smarter (and by default, Dean is the dumb one)? I don`t ever seeing Sam defend against that.   

Edited December 2, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

For me its not about brother dynamics or whether Dean wants or needs it.  It's a matter of me as a viewer wanting to see it. 

When they had Dean jump to Sam's defense, regardless of the reason, it makes the fact that Sam just sat there in silence stick out that much more.  

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, it`s not like I could see Sam saying something in that scenario either or even give the other hunter the stink-eye. Even if Dean himself wasn`t there and the other hunter just made a remark like "well, we all know in hunting circles he ain`t the smart one out of you two" to just Sam, I do not see him defend Dean. Because he agrees with the sentiment overall. I see it basically in no scenario. 

Maybe - but that`s a big if - I could see Sam say something if another hunter (that Sam didn`t like)  infered that he, the hunter, was smarter than Dean, maybe. If it was someone Sam did like, then no as well. But the inference that Sam is smarter (and by default, Dean is the dumb one)? I don`t ever seeing Sam defend against that.   

I think Sam thinks he is the smart one -- in the sense of traditional, academic book smarts. This isn't arrogant, as it happens to be true.

My brother is better than I am in many things, including some that reflect considerable intelligence. He is, among other things, wonderfully witty, an excellent cook, and extremely quick at picking up new skills, from teaching himself to fix a car to learning a programming language to improving a billing system weeks after joining a new company. I, on the other hand, was always a much better student, tend to be a more eloquent speaker and writer, and would do better on Jeopardy.  That  doesn't make me globally smarter -- I'm not sure whose IQ would come out ahead, to the extent that that matters -- but it makes me  book-smart in a way he isn't. 

Yes, I would contradict anyone who called me the "smart one." But then, I don't tend to run into demons.

As to whether or not Sam would defend a legitimate insult against Dean from another hunter, we'll have to agree to disagree until it happens on screen, until which point it is purely speculative. 

I will add that I don't recall Dean defending Sam when Gordon was doing his whole "Sam isn't like us" shtick back in Season 2, by the way. Nor did he object when demon-possessed Bobby suggested that Sam should "lose his number" when he found out that killing Lillith had started the apocalypse. 

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

For me its not about brother dynamics or whether Dean wants or needs it.  It's a matter of me as a viewer wanting to see it. 

Then hopefully the writers will construct a scenario in which it would make sense for Sam to do so. This wasn't it, IMO. 

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I will add that I don't recall Dean defending Sam when Gordon was doing his whole "Sam isn't like us" shtick back in Season 2, by the way. Nor did he object when demon-possessed Bobby suggested that Sam should "lose his number" when he found out that killing Lillith had started the apocalypse

For the 1st reference Gordon was telling Dean that they were alike in the sense that they saw hunting in black & white terms while Sam viewed it in shades of gray. Dean did give him a look when he said that Sam wasn't like them & he clarified that it wasn't a bad thing, just that Sam was different from them. It wasn't so much a put down as he thought that the fact that he and Dean were both cold blooded killers to be a good thing. Also, I tend to give Dean slack with the 2nd example. Yes, he should have said something to Bobby but he was also still upset with Sam so I can see him not really caring that Bobby had hurt his feelings.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think Sam thinks he is the smart one -- in the sense of traditional, academic book smarts. This isn't arrogant, as it happens to be true.

The writers use those digs as obvious remarks about overall intelligence, otherwise it could be easily specified as "you are the academic" or even in more laymen`s terms "you are the bookwurm". They are choosing "you are the smart one" for a reason. And that is IMO how Sam sees it, too, that he has the superior intellect. That`s why I don`t think those remarks about Dean bug him, no matter who they come from and in what context.

Conversely that also means I cheer in scenes where the writers obviously do not want me to cheer, like how Ruby revealed herself and how much she played Sam for a fool. I immediately flashed back to "I`m stronger, smarter and better" and grinned. This wasn`t remotely the reaction intended in that scene but because they writer other day-to-day scenes like the above, frankly, I take my comeuppance where I can get it now. 

They are so hellbound on pushing Sam as the smart one and Dean as the dumb Neanderthal carricature, my instinctual reaction is to push back. 

[ILoveReading]

40 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Then hopefully the writers will construct a scenario in which it would make sense for Sam to do so. This wasn't it, IMO. 

I could also point out that getting into a sparring match whether verbal and/or physical with a guy who is watching your back doesn't really make sense either.  But Dean did it anyway. 

These guys say inappropriate things at inappropriate times so IMO, this isn't an excuse.  Plus, I don't need an over the top pimping like Dean gave Sam to the priest in Clip show. 

The writers could have had Dean get up an leave, instead of eating the pie that a demon gave him, (something which is really not smart) and Sam get up and give the guy a death glare and say something like, the last person who underestimated my brother ended up dead.  There are ways to make it work if the writers really wanted it in there.

It wouldn't have bugged so much if the writers had actually highlighted some of Dean's strengths but they didn't.   He was strictly comic relief in this ep.  They went out of their way to not only Sam as the book smart but also gave him the street smarts (for lack of a better term) and the ability to think quickly and come up with out of the box solutions.   Traits that are normally Deans. 

So I don't think it was their intention to say Sam is the smart one strictly based on academics.

It's well established that Dean is good with patterns and symbols.  So if the writers wanted to actually show the book vs street smarts they could have easily allowed Dean to figure out the path to the safe, or come up with the solution (which was very Dean like) to use Luther as a shield.   But that went to Sam.

Edited December 2, 2017 by ILoveReading

[companionenvy]

Well, Sam's the idiot who had to be reminded to go for the paper, and then tried blowing on it to put out the flames. He also was the one pushing working with Bart in the first place, which wound up being the wrong call. So, I actually think this is pretty par for the course for Sam and Dean - Sam presents a pseudo "logical" reason to do something, overriding the instincts of "impulsive" Dean, and Dean winds up being right. 

Last week, Dean is the one who figured out that Ketch wasn't Ketch. He also figured out something that Sam and Cas missed (can't remember what) in the case with the ghoul. So he hasn't been globally portrayed as an idiot by any means.

I agree that some writers push the "Dean is the goofy/less intelligent" one too far; this week, I'd point to the scene where he wouldn't stick his hand in the door, which was over the top to me.  But again, I don't think it has been as consistent as some people think.

As for Sam and Dean saying things in inappropriate times -- well, sometimes, but that's more Dean's MO than Sam's. While, as I've suggested, I think the situations in which Dean and Sam got insulted in this episode were not comparable, I agree that if they had been, Dean would still be more likely to defend Sam. That, to, me, is  a reflection of personality and family dynamics more than it is a reflection on their respective regard for each other. Dean is more impulsive than Sam, and less likely to let an insult slide even when he should. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I think it would have been lousy writing for Sam to "defend" Dean in that scene. The idea that Dean would feel insecure because a random demon called Sam "the smart one" -- a very predictable jab given Sam's academic history -- is insulting, and in the context of a very serious discussion about whether or not to make a deal with a demon in return for a nephilim retrieval spell, Sam saying something like "Dean's smart too!" would have been awkward and kind of absurd. 

It isn't like Sam and Dean were working with another hunter who seriously suggested that Dean was dumb while kicking back drinks after a case. 

It's not about Dean being insecure.  It's about Sam being even a little bit annoyed that a dirtbag demon  (in this instance) is implying his brother is dumb, right in front of him. In front of Sam, that is. Whether it bothers Dean or not, it should bother Sam at least as much as it bothers me.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's not about Dean being insecure.  It's about Sam being even a little bit annoyed that a dirtbag demon  (in this instance) is implying his brother is dumb, right in front of him. In front of Sam, that is. Whether it bothers Dean or not, it should bother Sam at least as much as it bothers me.

Why would anything a dirtbag demon says bother Sam? I mean, he's a demon and saying shit in order to manipulate them. Wouldn't a response have just been proof to the demon he had been successful?

Not to mention, neither Dean nor Sam need the other to defend them. TBH, I'd be pretty annoyed at any of my siblings if they started defending my intelligence with me sitting at the table. That would say to me they don't respect me very much and/or probably don't actually think I'm all that smart if they felt the need to publicly declare that I was smarter than I appeared. 

[DeeDee79]

Quote

 

I'm sure the defense will be "Sam is just focused on the task at hand and is above petty insults so as to get the job done. And he knows Dean is smart. And Dean knows Dean is smart. He doesn't need Sam to defend him. He's a grown man. " 

Coupled with "Dean doesn't care if a demon thinks he's stupid because he's always being underestimated. That is Dean's advantage. And who cares what a manipulative demon says any way".

 

Damn @catrox14 you were spot on when you predicted this!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean's hard on the outside but he's pretty damn vulnerable on the inside.  That, and his unhealthy and dysfunctional co-dependent relationship with his brother, are his two main downfalls.  

Sam, on the other hand, seems to get over things fairly easily.  He has hissy fits and stomps off, but he gets over it.  Dean drags it all around like an anchor. The violence of hunting - and probably alcohol and sex - are his release.  Just imagine how freeing it must have been for Dean to be a demon?  And not even your average demon... Dean was a fun demon.  Couldn't care less about ruling hell (much to Crowley's chagrin)

What I'm trying to impart is that I don't get the impression Sam ever fully grasps what's going on deep inside his brother.  He doesn't understand Dean really, because he doesn't deal the same way.   He knows Dean's  bluster and smart mouth are a cover and he's seen Dean depressed and alcoholic, but it doesn't seem to register how deep it all goes.  He's said some pretty cutting things to Dean when Dean's been down.  

I don't blame writing here.  It's the way the brothers are and Jensen's more able (it seems to me) to image inner suffering and torment.  

Sam would not defend Dean against insults.  But  in a similar situation Dean's hackles would rise. It's their natures/.

Of course, I realize Sam/Jared fans will see things maybe a bit differently. LOL. 

I actually agree with most of this.  I just don't understand why some take it as a slight against Sam?  Because, based on an earlier ep this season, when Dean rolled his eyes at Sam in the therapist's office, I think it's clear that Dean doesn't fully grasp what's going on deep inside his brother either.  Or in other words, Dean doesn't deal the same way as Sam.  And that's okay.  Most of don't get what's really going on deep inside another person.  Why does this make one person better or worse than another?  (Hint: it doesn't.)  Seems to me, they are both the same, yet in different ways.  

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I actually agree with most of this.  I just don't understand why some take it as a slight against Sam?  Because, based on an earlier ep this season, when Dean rolled his eyes at Sam in the therapist's office, I think it's clear that Dean doesn't fully grasp what's going on deep inside his brother either.  Or in other words, Dean doesn't deal the same way as Sam.  And that's okay.  Most of don't get what's really going on deep inside another person.  Why does this make one person better or worse than another?  (Hint: it doesn't.)  Seems to me, they are both the same, yet in different ways.  

I think Dean does understand Sam better than Sam understands Dean because he essentially helped to raise Sam.

Dean is 4 years older than Sam and was responsible for his well being for his entire childhood and young adulthood. That's why Dean knew Sam wasn't right when he came back from Hell. That's why Dean has mostly been right about Sam going down the wrong paths and trying to stop him. 

Because Dean DOES understand Sam even if he disagrees with him. And what he didn't understand, he learns and accepts eventually, like Sam leaving for school and telling him he was right for leaving.

So yes, I don't think it is equivalent in the reverse. Sam doesn't know Dean but Dean knows Sam because of their dynamic.

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Well, Sam's the idiot who had to be reminded to go for the paper, and then tried blowing on it to put out the flames. He also was the one pushing working with Bart in the first place, which wound up being the wrong call. So, I actually think this is pretty par for the course for Sam and Dean - Sam presents a pseudo "logical" reason to do something, overriding the instincts of "impulsive" Dean, and Dean winds up being right. 

Sam's also the one who recognized that it wasn't a basilisk tooth but a Gorgon's tooth (which, um, how?  Do they have them lying around the bunker and he cataloged their differences?)  Remember when some things "got filed as bullcrap" and they didn't know about foreign monsters like lamia and japanese demons?  

I think the "logical vs impulsive" thing is more a nod to hunter instincts, which they're trying to put as more important than "mere" book learning,and which probably would have been true (before all the new monsters).  I'm guessing instinct won't tell them how to extract a gorgon's tooth.  :)    

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

(which, um, how?  Do they have them lying around the bunker and he cataloged their differences?) 

I totally bet they do.  They have everything in that bunker.

24 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Remember when some things "got filed as bullcrap" and they didn't know about foreign monsters like lamia and japanese demons?  

Sure but that was before the bunker.  Didn't Larry say something about "all knowledge" was contained in there.

BTW, have I mentioned how much I hate the bunker in the last week?  I'm not sure that I have and since I wouldn't want anyone to forget how much I hate the bunker, I'll just say I hate the bunker.

[catrox14]

Honest question for those concerned why Dean was the one included for the blood thing in 13.08. Supposing it wasn't just the hellhound deal, why does it matter if Dean was the point person vs Sam in that case?

[companionenvy]

It just seemed a little odd that everyone immediately took it as a given that "person who came back from hell" had to be Dean, when both brothers have been to hell and back. It is a reasonable fanwank to assume it had to be Dean because he's the only one who was actually dragged off to regular hell by hellhounds after making a demon deal, but I think the show should have had a line to make that explicit, since it shouldn't have been obvious to the characters that Sam's experiences wouldn't count. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

It just seemed a little odd that everyone immediately took it as a given that "person who came back from hell" had to be Dean, when both brothers have been to hell and back. It is a reasonable fanwank to assume it had to be Dean because he's the only one who was actually dragged off to regular hell by hellhounds after making a demon deal, but I think the show should have had a line to make that explicit, since it shouldn't have been obvious to the characters that Sam's experiences wouldn't count. 

I don't get what there was to fanwank though. Bart directed the conversation to Dean and then there were the flashbacks to Dean in Hell and being saved by Cas. It seemed obvious to me, that was how they were communicating that it would be Dean and then the parallel with deal making made it clear WHY it had to be Dean, because Sam didn't make a deal. 

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get what there was to fanwank though. Bart directed the conversation to Dean and then there were the flashbacks to Dean in Hell and being saved by Cas. It seemed obvious to me, that was how they were communicating that it would be Dean and then the parallel with deal making made it clear WHY it had to be Dean, because Sam didn't make a deal. 

And God forbid there be a reference to Dean being in hell instead of hearing about Sam & the cage for the umpteenth time.