“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[companionenvy]

48 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I'm curious what these are, @companionenvy.  I've had two small quibbles with how the show is writing Dean's grief. One was him guilting Sam about giving Jody a hunt.  Telling him it would be Sam's fault if she died. No, Dean, Jody is a grown-ass woman who can make her own choices.  And, two, when he told Sam that he was not going to mother Jack and neither was Sam.  That's really it though and I'm not having any trouble with ascribing these two incidents to grief. 

Overall, I find Dean expressing grief as anger to be in character. And, yes, he does lash out. That doesn't bother me. 

It is more a matter of degree than of kind, for me. Dean lashing out when he is grieving is a pattern, and understandable, but I think the writers are overdoing it with how awful he is being to Jack. I'm not saying he has to be warm and fuzzy with the kid, but the absolute hostility he's expressing in the face of Jack's naivete and attempts to please is, to me, taking things to far. At least in this episode -- I thought the scene where he walked in on Jack stabbing himself was well-done last week. But his behavior to Jack on the hunt was just petty, juvenile jerkiness, and yeah, I think Dean is above that, especially now that he's seen Jack trying to help -- not to mention the aforementioned attempts at self-harm. 

 

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

+ 1 million. The so-called empathetic, kind hearted brother has more empathy and kindness for the son of Lucifer than his own brother. Let that sink in a while. 

That's a false equivalence, IMO. First of all, that Jack is the son of Lucifer is a red herring. Dean was decent to the antichrist; he's let monsters go; he helped out Hitler's granddaughter on a case. The fact that Jack is Lucifer's son with all the power that implies  warrants treating him with some caution, but putting "Dean" on one side and "Lucifer's son" (rather than Jack) on the other is stacking the deck to make Sam look bad. In addition, while Sam may be pushing Dean too hard on the "accepting Jack" thing, I don't think grief gives you a total and complete pass to be utterly unreasonable or unkind to another person. Dean may be right to be wary of Jack, but he's dead wrong to treat him like radioactive sludge, and empathy for Dean shouldn't require Sam to ignore that.

And remember, Sam is grieving too. I know Dean is closer to Cas that Sam is, but in the canon-world, Dean and Cas aren't lovers, and Cas and Sam are pretty good friends by now as well. Yes, I would expect Dean to be more affected than Sam by Cas's death, but both have just lost Mary (and Sam must know that there's a good chance Mary is dead, even if he's choosing to hold out hope), and a close friend. And Sam was probably more affected by Eileen's death not so long ago. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by companionenvy

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

+1

And we've even got the official CW social media account (@cw_spn) proclaiming that Dean just needs tough love (ie a thorough berating from Sam, complete dismissal of his feelings by the therapist) to come around to the right way of thinking. Seriously, F.U. show.

I just saw that Tweet. Egads. Either way that Tweet is read its a negative for Dean.

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

That's a false equivalence, IMO. First of all, that Jack is the son of Lucifer is a red herring. Dean was decent to the antichrist; he's let monsters go; he helped out Hitler's granddaughter on a case. The fact that Jack is Lucifer's son with all the power that implies  warrants treating him with some caution, but putting "Dean" on one side and "Lucifer's son" (rather than Jack) on the other is stacking the deck to make Sam look bad. In addition, while Sam may be pushing Dean too hard on the "accepting Jack" thing, I don't think grief gives you a total and complete pass to be utterly unreasonable or unkind to another person. Dean may be right to be wary of Jack, but he's dead wrong to treat him like radioactive sludge, and empathy for Dean shouldn't require Sam to ignore that.

And remember, Sam is grieving too. I know Dean is closer to Cas that Sam is, but in the canon-world, Dean and Cas aren't lovers, and Cas and Sam are pretty good friends by now as well. Yes, I would expect Dean to be more affected than Sam by Cas's death, but both have just lost Mary (and Sam must know that there's a good chance Mary is dead, even if he's choosing to hold out hope), and a close friend. And Sam was probably more affected by Eileen's death not so long ago. 

I mostly agree with all of this, but the bit in bold comes off as a little dismissive to me. I’m fairly certain @gonzosgirrl isn’t a Destiel shipper, and therefore doesn’t  view things through the lens of “Dean just lost the love of his life”, but even if they were a shipper of Destiel they can view things their own way without it being made into a ship issue. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

And remember, Sam is grieving too. I know Dean is closer to Cas that Sam is, but in the canon-world, Dean and Cas aren't lovers, and Cas and Sam are pretty good friends by now as well. Y

Who said they were lovers? I might ship them but I never said they are canon lovers. Cas is Dean's Best Friend. Period. Dean declared him as such. He's had a longer, more emotionally intense relationship with Cas than Sam.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 In addition, while Sam may be pushing Dean too hard on the "accepting Jack" thing

Which I think backfired. Sam reminded me of that old Verizon? commercial "can you hear me now?", only it was "do you like him now?" "how about now? "and now?" Predictably, Dean got more and more annoyed by that and Jack got in the way of his ire. 

That is why I`ve continuously felt truly bad for Jack. Even the eavesdropping scene wasn`t so much his fault because he doesn`t have the experience and emotional maturity to nope the hell out of there. But I wanted Sam to shut up for once and stop trying to beam his will into Dean`s head. And I`m mega-annoyed that he once again succeeded. Urgh.

[MysteryGuest]

Playing devil's advocate here, let's say there is some nefarious plot to destroy the character of Dean Winchester.  What would be the reason for that?  Do we think that Dabb and Co. have a secret plan with Jared to continue on alone once Jensen is squeezed out?  I don't see that happening.  Do we think that by ragging on Dean constantly and making him look bad it's actually making people like Sam more?  Are they flipping Dean fans to Sam fans in droves?  From what I can see, all it's doing is driving people away from the show, so maybe that's Dabb's plan.  Maybe he wants the show to end but as long as Jared and Jensen keep signing up, it just keeps going and going and going.  I'm just not sure what the end game is, if this is a deliberate attempt to smear one of their own characters.

I'm much more inclined to chalk it up to bad writing, and poor show running.  They're either too preoccupied with the big picture and aren't paying enough attention to how they get there, or they're just lousy at it and can't tell a good script from a bad one.  Or they've hired writers who haven't bothered to familiarize themselves enough with the show, and there's no one in charge to make sure that all of these various scripts maintain the integrity of the characters.  If it's a deliberate jab at Jensen, what's the end game?

Edited November 4, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Playing devil's advocate here, let's say there is some nefarious plot to destroy the character of Dean Winchester.  What would be the reason for that?  Do we think that Dabb and Co. have a secret plan with Jared to continue on alone once Jensen is squeezed out?  I don't see that happening.  Do we think that by ragging on Dean constantly and making him look bad it's actually making people like Sam more?  Are they flipping Dean fans to Sam fans in droves?  From what I can see, all it's doing is driving people away from the show, so maybe that's Dabb's plan.  Maybe he wants the show to end but as long as Jared and Jensen keep signing up, it just keeps going and going and going.  I'm just not sure what the end game is, if this is a deliberate attempt to smear one of their own characters.

I'm much more inclined to chalk it up to bad writing, and poor show running.  They're either too preoccupied with the big picture and aren't paying enough attention to how they get there, or they're just lousy at it and can't tell a good script from a bad one.  Or they've hired writers who haven't bothered to familiarize themselves enough with the show, and there's no one in charge to make sure that all of these various scripts maintain the integrity of the show.  If it's a deliberate jab at Jensen, what's the end game?

Agreed! I’m not denying that back door politics happens on shows, but IMO SN is a very different beast. On a normal ensemble show the show could probably survive a lead character being written off, but Supernatural is heavily dependent on both Jared/Sam and Jensen/Dean. If either of them quit the show wouldn’t survive for longer than a flop of a season (if the CW were stupid enough to try and renew it sans Jensen). The only remotely feasible option is Dabb is trying to lead the show to its death, but even that’s silly; if he doesn’t like the show anymore all he has to do is quit just like Kripke, Carver, Gamble and a number of other writers have done over the years. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Playing devil's advocate here, let's say there is some nefarious plot to destroy the character of Dean Winchester.  What would be the reason for that?  Do we think that Dabb and Co. have a secret plan with Jared to continue on alone once Jensen is squeezed out?  I don't see that happening.  

They think Dean is a sucky dick and write the show with that mindset? I`m not being sarcastic or anything, I truly believe that is the simple reason. As for longterm plans, Jack is pretty popular right now and many Sam-fans clamor for the Sam and Jack show. But overall, I don`t even think they plan to squeeze Jensen out. I mean they need a negative figure to make other characters look better in comparism and to blame when others fail. Basically, they need a punching bag in the show. They will just continue to drag him through the mud. There are enough people who enjoy this. 

Quote

Do we think that by ragging on Dean constantly and making him look bad it's actually making people like Sam more? 

Writers have been tone-deaf this way since forever. The SPN folk aren`t the first ones and won`t be the last. The Smallville folk seemed puzzled forever that the Lana-character received a backlash when they so painstakingly wrote her as perfect and pure in every way. Never catching on that this WAS the reason for the backlash.    

Edited November 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm much more inclined to chalk it up to bad writing, and poor show running.  

Or Dabb feels that the show is getting a bit long in the tooth and is perfectly happy with alienating some of its fanbase so  he can focus on his spinoff. IMO.

[Bessie]

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm much more inclined to chalk it up to bad writing, and poor show running.  They're either too preoccupied with the big picture and aren't paying enough attention to how they get there, or they're just lousy at it and can't tell a good script from a bad one.  Or they've hired writers who haven't bothered to familiarize themselves enough with the show, and there's no one in charge to make sure that all of these various scripts maintain the integrity of the show.

While I don't subscribe to most of the opinions expressed in this thread over this past episode, I do think the writers are more focused on plot than character. I also think they're shifting the focus away from Sam and Dean in order to provide J2 with time off. Those things combined have caused a degrading of the quality of Supernatural overtime.  And I don't find this to be confined to one character.  The writers are having trouble with all of the characters. Sam, Mary, Cas and Lucifer have all suffered from some of these same quality control issues. (So far, I'm not having as many quality issues with this season, but I do expect that to change.)

Edited November 4, 2017 by Bessie

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They think Dean is a sucky dick and write the show with that mindset? I`m not being sarcastic or anything, I truly believe that is the simple reason. As for longterm plans, Jack is pretty popular right now and many Sam-fans clamor for the Sam and Jack show. But overall, I don`t even think they plan to squeeze Jensen out. I mean they need a negative figure to make other characters look better in comparism and to blame when others fail. Basically, they need a punching bag in the show. They will just continue to drag him through the mud. There are enough people who enjoy this. 

But Jensen loves the character of Dean.  Would he really just sit by idly while they completely trashed him?  I find that hard to believe.  Not to mention that I firmly believe that the writers don't paint Sam in the kindest light, either.  Sam has made some horrible choices throughout the series, so I think Sam fans could have the same argument.  This is why I don't believe it's personal and I just think it's crap writing.  

Dean is my favorite character.  I want him to always be on the right side, or to at least have a legitimate reason for why he's wrong.  I want him to look strong and capable in every monster fight.  I want him to have all of the action scenes and all of the emotional dialogue.  But unfortunately for me, he's got this damn co-star that they insist on giving equal time to.  So sadly, my favorite isn't always going to kill the monster or make the right decision or get the girl, because the other guy is going to get to do all of that instead.  There have been storylines that I wished were longer or that were given to my favorite, because he's my favorite.  But if I'm being objective, which I'm really trying to be, I think this show has done a fairly decent job of creating two interesting, relatively heroic, flawed, human beings.  They've both done amazing things and they've both fucked up royally.  Could the show be better...absolutely.  But while I'm not always happy with how my favorite is represented, I just don't see any hidden agenda here. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So sadly, my favorite isn't always going to kill the monster or make the right decision or get the girl, because the other guy is going to get to do all of that instead. 

I get that. I know Dean isn`t getting the kill or the save in every episode or that he is gonna look right on every issue but I`m not seeing the show in any way balanced right now. Not last Season and not this Season. The imbalance on saintifying Sam and making Dean a jerk in this so-called grief arc instead of exploring two perspectives who are just different is almost ludicrous to me. Just as the imbalance in the action last Season was ludicrous. 

The show getting 5000 times worse for Dean since Dabb has taken over is also very apparent in my eyes. Gamble was a bona-fide Sam-girl and I could see that but even she wasn`t this bad. Kripke IMO saw Dean as Sam`s eternal sidekick but I still believe he lked the character. Carver, I have no idea. At first he started out Dabb-like and then ventured into some genuinely interesting territory.   

The writing on the show has never been good in my eyes. It was more fun and charming but it was never good or great. Just having a really good episode here and there does not a great overall show make. 

Quote

But Jensen loves the character of Dean.  Would he really just sit by idly while they completely trashed him?

He stupidly (IMO, sorry to say) signed on for more. So in reality he can do bubkis. It`s his job to act out what the writers give him. And if that is trashing Dean to infinity, he still has to do it. He could throw a tantrum and lock himself in his trailer but that is hardly something Jensen is gonna do. Not that I think it would even work.  

Edited November 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

It is more a matter of degree than of kind, for me. Dean lashing out when he is grieving is a pattern, and understandable, but I think the writers are overdoing it with how awful he is being to Jack. I'm not saying he has to be warm and fuzzy with the kid, but the absolute hostility he's expressing in the face of Jack's naivete and attempts to please is, to me, taking things to far. At least in this episode -- I thought the scene where he walked in on Jack stabbing himself was well-done last week. But his behavior to Jack on the hunt was just petty, juvenile jerkiness, and yeah, I think Dean is above that, especially now that he's seen Jack trying to help -- not to mention the aforementioned attempts at self-harm. 

 

That's a false equivalence, IMO. First of all, that Jack is the son of Lucifer is a red herring. Dean was decent to the antichrist; he's let monsters go; he helped out Hitler's granddaughter on a case. The fact that Jack is Lucifer's son with all the power that implies  warrants treating him with some caution, but putting "Dean" on one side and "Lucifer's son" (rather than Jack) on the other is stacking the deck to make Sam look bad. In addition, while Sam may be pushing Dean too hard on the "accepting Jack" thing, I don't think grief gives you a total and complete pass to be utterly unreasonable or unkind to another person. Dean may be right to be wary of Jack, but he's dead wrong to treat him like radioactive sludge, and empathy for Dean shouldn't require Sam to ignore that.

And remember, Sam is grieving too. I know Dean is closer to Cas that Sam is, but in the canon-world, Dean and Cas aren't lovers, and Cas and Sam are pretty good friends by now as well. Yes, I would expect Dean to be more affected than Sam by Cas's death, but both have just lost Mary (and Sam must know that there's a good chance Mary is dead, even if he's choosing to hold out hope), and a close friend. And Sam was probably more affected by Eileen's death not so long ago. 

On my phone so cant do specific quotes, you're right that Jack being who he is is irrelevant, but the fact remains, he is a complete stranger and Sam showed him more empathy ans kindness than he showed Dean, at any time since the death of Dean's best friend and their mother. 

[gonzosgirrl]

58 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I mostly agree with all of this, but the bit in bold comes off as a little dismissive to me. I’m fairly certain @gonzosgirrl isn’t a Destiel shipper, and therefore doesn’t  view things through the lens of “Dean just lost the love of his life”, but even if they were a shipper of Destiel they can view things their own way without it being made into a ship issue. 

I couldn't be farther from being a shipper. In fact, Dean may consider Cas his best friend, but I don't.  Doesn't change the fact that he's mourning Cas hard, and Sam has dismissed that wholesale unless/until it affected him or Jack. 

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On my phone so cant do specific quotes, you're right that Jack being who he is is irrelevant, but the fact remains, he is a complete stranger and Sam showed him more empathy ans kindness than he showed Dean, at any time since the death of Dean's best friend and their mother. 

Agreed. Sam has talked to Jack to see how he's doing with all that has transpired but has Sam even asked Dean how he was doing? He may have in the premier ( I honestly don't remember ) but it seems that he's been mostly scolding Dean and exasperated at his behavior.

[Aeryn13]

That honestly didn`t bother me. What bothered me was the continued song and dance of "I want to parent Jack and you must want it too". And being exasperated when Dean said no. Sam didn`t hear so Dean`s "no" got louder and louder and then he got berated and shamed for that. You can bet my "no" would have been much more scathing. Like, I hate it when people busy-body in my life like that. 

Jack just got hit with the ricochets, poor thing. 

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You can bet my "no" would have been much more scathing. Like, I hate it when people busy-body in my life like that. 

My "no" would have turned into "fuck off" but unfortunately Dean can't be that blunt.

[Reganne]

17 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Agreed. Sam has talked to Jack to see how he's doing with all that has transpired but has Sam even asked Dean how he was doing? He may have in the premier ( I honestly don't remember ) but it seems that he's been mostly scolding Dean and exasperated at his behavior.

Sam asked Dean how he was feeling in the Great big empty when he first entered the bunker.  Dean didn't really answer him though and went into the conversation about the case he found.  Not sure if anyone has asked how Sam is doing.  He is under a lot of stress and grief too.

[DeeDee79]

16 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Not sure if anyone has asked how Sam is doing.  He is under a lot of stress and grief too.

And no one has denied that.

[Reganne]

14 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And no one has denied that.

The impression I get from some of these posts is that Dean was closer to Castiel therefore it should be Sam's responsibility to help Dean because he is apparently the one who needs it more.  My question is.... who is helping Sam?

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

The impression I get from some of these posts is that Dean was closer to Castiel therefore it should be Sam's responsibility to help Dean because he is apparently the one who needs it more.  My question is.... who is helping Sam?

It wasn't one of my posts that said that. And your earlier post stated that Sam asked Dean how he was feeling in this weeks episode before Dean told him about the case. So he asked him about his feelings after he told Jack that Dean "had wires crossed" and after he told Dean that if Jack went bad it would be Dean's fault? True there's no one left to help Sam with what he's feeling but there's not much being done to help Dean either.

[Reganne]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It wasn't one of my posts that said that. And your earlier post stated that Sam asked Dean how he was feeling in this weeks episode before Dean told him about the case. So he asked him about his feelings after he told Jack that Dean "had wires crossed" and after he told Dean that if Jack went bad it would be Dean's fault? True there's no one left to help Sam with what he's feeling but there's not much being done to help Dean either.

So they're in a similar position... as Dean also  called Sam delusional in a mocking sort of way.  They have both said things about or to eachother.

[Myrelle]

13 minutes ago, Reganne said:

My question is.... who is helping Sam?

My impression is that Sam is helping himself by staying in a state of denial concerning Mary's death and trying to do something about it via going Mr Miyagi with Jack and Jack's abilities/powers.

Dean, otoh, is incapable of even helping himself much less Sam. He is on the cusp of being nihilistic. He said this to Sam at the very end. He has no faith to give to/for/in anyone or anything. He asked Sam to have faith for both of them that Mary is alive. My impression is that Dean needs support more than Sam right now, but Sam can't hear that-or refuses to-because that will inconvenience Sam's way of dealing and/or he's just not as accustomed to having to be the  more supportive brother when both of them can barely deal at the same time. He likely feels that that is Dean's role because that's what Dean has always done in the past and Sam can't fathom that this time it just might be different for Dean and, as such, for both of them because Dean just can't function in the faithful/hopeful role at all now and this time. S3, S4 and S8 presented us with pretty much the same scenarios and Sam reacted similarly in all those instances, IMO.

I have to say that Jensen has imbued Dean with such bone weariness this season that I'm not sure Dean felt this low even after he'd returned from Hell and remembered what he'd done there. He is rockin' the almost nihilism this season like nobody's business.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

So they're in a similar position... as Dean also  called Sam delusional in a mocking sort of way.  They have both said things about or to eachother.

I don't recall the dialogue word for word but from what I can recall Sam got the ball rolling by telling the therapist that Dean wasn't dealing with his grief well after which Dean responded with the "delusional" statement. If you ask me he was lashing out because Dean seemed pretty taken aback by Sam saying that to begin with. Also, IMO Dean wasn't being mocking with that statement; he was hurt. We can go around and around on this but I'm not seeing it the way that you are so we can agree to disagree.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Reganne said:

So they're in a similar position... as Dean also  called Sam delusional in a mocking sort of way.  They have both said things about or to eachother

And only one of them, Dean, has been portrayed as being in the wrong in the narrative for the first 4 episodes. He's been scolded by an authority figure and by Sam. Jody even had a weird moment of essentially saying that Dean is "wrong" because he told Patience if you have a chance at normal to take yet it got twisted in the narrative to be a "bad" thing for the sake of plot. Only one of them, Dean, was made to apologize and call himself a dick for his actions.  Rather imbalanced and so much so that I don't know how they get the balance back for Dean's benefit.

[MysteryGuest]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jody even had a weird moment of essentially saying that Dean is "wrong" because he told Patience if you have a chance at normal to take yet it got twisted in the narrative to be a "bad" thing for the sake of plot.

That was all about the spin off.  What Dean told her was accurate.  The hunting life is no picnic, and you lose everyone you care about and die too young.  That's not a lie, and I don't think they were trying to make Dean look bad.  But they were trying to give Jody a reason to even be in that episode, and to set the groundwork for Patience seeking her out later in the season.  

Again, it's just clumsy writing.  If any harm was done to Dean's character, it was inadvertent.  But that's the problem with this entire issue.  I honestly believe that the slights we see happening to the characters we like are 99% of the time simply because the writers are moving their plot along, and they're just not good enough, or are too lazy to do it in a way that doesn't fuck with one of the characters.  I just don't think there's a damn thing we can do about it.  Unless Dabb is a complete moron, he has to notice the difference in writing ability, as must Jensen and Jared.  But that's never going to change as long as the show is on the CW, and I don't realistically see it going anywhere else.

Edited November 5, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

That was all about the spin off.  What Dean told her was accurate.  The hunting life is no picnic, and you lose everyone you care about and die too young.  That's not a lie, and I don't think they were trying to make Dean look bad.  But they were trying to give Jody a reason to even be in that episode, and to set the groundwork for Patience seeking her out later in the season.  

Again, it's just clumsy writing.

Jody and Dean having different perspectives isn't necessarily clumsy writing.  Yes, Dean was right that the life sucks and nobody should do it.  He's been in the life his whole life and he is rightfully sick of it.  Jody has been doing it a few years part time and is coming from the perspective of a parent (basically) trying to talk Claire out of doing what she wanted to do.  She wasn't so much saying that Dean, or James, were wrong.  Just that Patience was going to have to make up her own mind and do what feels right to her.  And, extended her help, because that's not a life you should strike out on your own blindly.

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Jody and Dean having different perspectives isn't necessarily clumsy writing.

I don't have an issue with their having different perspectives, I just think it was written poorly.  Dean gives her an honest portrayal of what the hunter's life is like, and Jody very loudly and oddly tells Patience that she doesn't have to listen to him or her father.  There's just no subtlety.  It's like Jody's a fricking recruiter now, which she isn't.  It was like being hit over the head with a hammer that "we have a spinoff to cast!".  Again, with a bit more thought and nuance, it could have been a really good scene.

Edited November 5, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[AwesomO4000]

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The narrative was very different back then. It played Sam as the more emotionally healthy one and Dean as the more screwed up, even pathetic one somewhat in regards to their feelings about John. At the very least Sam`s POV got an equal validation, I would argue more than equal. Whereas when Dean disagreed with Mary, Sam and the narrative both criticized him for doing it wrong. 

I disagree with you here. I didn't interpret it as the narrative playing Sam as more "emotionally healthy." When John died, the narrative despite Dean bashing the car - showed that it was Sam who did things "wrong" by fighting with John all the time and  now he would never have the chance to make it right, and so he'd have to live with that. Dean may have learned that John treated him unfairly, but Sam still learned that his going to college was just him not growing up and accepting his responsibilities ("Afterschool Special") and that leaving his family was "wrong" ("Point of No Return"). More often than not both John and Dean kept the opinion that Sam was the one who ruined the family... kind of rich coming from John especially, considering what he did to Dean and Sam as a kids... and Sam learning his place pretty much said to me that the narrative agrees that Sam wasn't the one in the right there.

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Whereas I think his emotional turmoil would lessen if he could just get some peace of mind. Not be pushed and prodded to share his feelings and then be told how wrong they are and what he needs to do instead. That just magnified the problem.

I mean it`s not like he is dead inside and hopeless in terms of not getting out of bed or the other extreme, doing something like  dangerous stunts.  

Dean generally wants to be left alone. Even if Sam needs and wants help through his grief, he usually ends up having to just tough it out alone, because Dean's wanting "space" seems to take precedence. A similar thing happened after John's death. Dean didn't want to talk, Sam did. Dean (rightly) pointed out that Sam was projecting his feelings all over the place and that he (Sam) was the one not dealing with it. Sam tells Dean that he was right about that and that he (Sam) feels awful, and that he (Sam) is hurting. Dean ignores him... so Sam gets nothing, and Dean gets his alone time beating up his car. When Sam dares bring the subject up again, he gets punched for his trouble and as far as I remember barely brings it up again, Dean getting what he wants.

Sam got something similar at the end of "Sam Interrupted" when he was angsting over his anger issues, but Dean didn't want to deal with Sam's messy emotions and told Sam to just shut up and stuff his issues. So that's what Sam did. So Sam gets the "you're doing emotions wrong" also, but he generally just has to suck it up, because that is Dean's solution to the problem.

In the current situation, the "give me space" stance is generally the one that seems the most reasonable - as in why can't Sam just leave Dean alone - and it's seen as the one not giving the space is the "bad guy" and the one being "insensitive" when the person having to give the space isn't getting what he wants either, because that's not how he likes to deal with the situation.

16 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I've been watching a few episodes from season 7 (I know...not everyone's favorite), but I'm amazed at how much better the writers were at fleshing out a scene.  Taking the time to allow the characters to actually have a conversation.  If they didn't at least attempt to encourage some of those writers to stick around, they made a big mistake.  

I love season 7, and I thought the writers did an excellent job showing the brothers' relationship. The dialogue let them really talk to each other. Even when they were having a disagreement they actually talked it out and listened to each other's point of view. And actually compromised with each other. Heaven forbid that happen now it seems.

I really miss Gamble's influence on this show.

11 hours ago, Myrelle said:

My impression is that Sam is helping himself by staying in a state of denial concerning Mary's death and trying to do something about it via going Mr Miyagi with Jack and Jack's abilities/powers.

Dean, otoh, is incapable of even helping himself much less Sam. He is on the cusp of being nihilistic. He said this to Sam at the very end. He has no faith to give to/for/in anyone or anything. He asked Sam to have faith for both of them that Mary is alive. My impression is that Dean needs support more than Sam right now, but Sam can't hear that-or refuses to-because that will inconvenience Sam's way of dealing and/or he's just not as accustomed to having to be the  more supportive brother when both of them can barely deal at the same time. He likely feels that that is Dean's role because that's what Dean has always done in the past and Sam can't fathom that this time it just might be different for Dean and, as such, for both of them because Dean just can't function in the faithful/hopeful role at all now and this time. S3, S4 and S8 presented us with pretty much the same scenarios and Sam reacted similarly in all those instances, IMO.

I disagree with this. Sam very much has at least tried to do this before - in season 7. Sam tried very hard to be supportive of Dean even as he was having mental issues himself. His efforts were mostly ignored, but he did what he could, finding hunts to distract Dean with when he thought Dean was getting too obsessed with Dick Roman and needed a break, but otherwise letting Dean do what he needed to. Sam also took on the hopeful role during that season when Dean couldn't.

I also disagree that Sam wasn't being the supportive / hopeful one in season 3. Sam pretty much tried the entire season to keep up hope that they'd find a way out for Dean when Dean insisted that there was no way out. Sam pretty much stated at the end of season 2 that he would just have to step up and save Dean... and then proceeded to try and do that in season 3. I'm not sure how that was Sam expecting Dean to be the hopeful one. He eventually did question Dean wanting to save himself, but it wasn't like Sam didn't try to be the hopeful one for quite a while before that.

So it isn't like Sam hasn't done this before, it's just that this group of writers isn't taking that route - probably for the angst / conflict angle.

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And only one of them, Dean, has been portrayed as being in the wrong in the narrative for the first 4 episodes. He's been scolded by an authority figure and by Sam. Jody even had a weird moment of essentially saying that Dean is "wrong" because he told Patience if you have a chance at normal to take yet it got twisted in the narrative to be a "bad" thing for the sake of plot. Only one of them, Dean, was made to apologize and call himself a dick for his actions.  Rather imbalanced and so much so that I don't know how they get the balance back for Dean's benefit.

If they follow the season 9 way, it will turn around after about 6 episodes and remain the opposite perspective until the end of the season. By 6 episodes after "Road Trip" we had Sam telling Dean that he (Dean) was right and going along with Dean's judgement.

My guess is that Sam will do something stupid due to good intentions where Jack will cause a problem - likely opening a rift to the alternate dimension - and then Dean will have to save the day.

Edited November 5, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[tessathereaper]

13 hours ago, Reganne said:

See, I don't think he should be criticized for feeling that way at all.  I think that's counterproductive.  What good would it do telling someone who's grieving "Look, I was right in the way to deal with mom and you were wrong".  There have been countless times through out the series where Sam is willing to listen to Dean talk about the way he feels.  I think he was trying to get him to open up in the therapy session before Dean called him delusional.  Most of the time, he is brushed off by Dean himself.  He says he's fine or doesn't need to work through it.  That he accepts it.  That's been his character for seasons.  This isn't anything new.  What exactly is Sam suppose to do?  If Dean wants his feelings to be validated or listened to, he would have to open up at some point.  This season, his grief has come about through anger.  That is his way of dealing with it.  He did get to vent some of his frustrations and feelings at the end of patience... which came out in anger. 

Yet it's fine for everyone to criticize DEAN for how he's feeling?  Because that's what's been happening on the show.  THAT is why some of view it as imbalanced and biased.  And Dean was responding to SAM's criticism of DEAN, so it's hardly like he just called Sam delusional in a vacuum.   The fact is what Dean said about Sam wasn't untrue and it led to a "breakthrough" on Sam's part actually which if that grief counselor had been remotely competent would have realized instead of berating Dean.  

And as for "I was right on how to deal with Mom and you were wrong" - a) it's not like Sam's never pointed out HE was right about things so why not Dean? and b) why not have SAM say himself, like Dean has often been made to do, I WAS WRONG on the right way to deal with Mom and YOU were right.  How about that?  What's so hard about having Sam admit he was wrong when he was wrong?  How about some actual self-awareness from Sam?

Why would Dean open up to Sam when in the past Sam has done the exact opposite of validating Dean's feelings when Dean's needed it most?  But no one else validates Dean's feelings either, they are universally presented as wrong.  No one is ever on his side least of all when it's different from Sam's.  Even if Sam won't validate his feelings or Dean won't go to Sam due to past experience of Sam using what Dean's revealed to him against him to excuse his taking actions behind Dean's back, lying to him, calling him weak, etc, etc - what's the excuse for no one else ever taking Dean's side?  They always take Sam's.  Who defends Dean by saying "Sam's just mixed up and gets his wires crossed"(which IMO is something Sam has done far more often than Dean)?  When does the outsider with no perspective berate Sam for how he treats Dean?  

Edited November 5, 2017 by tessathereaper

[ILoveReading]

I really hope they aren't going make Cas, be The Empty Cas because it will just be another way to throw Dean under the bus.

I'm betting Sam who doesn't really have a connection to Cas will be able to tell something is off, but Dean who is supposed to be closer to him won't.  ( Despite that fact that he could tell it just from a phone call).

It would completely undermine Dean's and Cas's relationship. 

So it's exactly what these writers will do. 

If it's grief and Dean is desperate to believe Cas is back that he's ignoring the signs that's one thing, but given how it was used as nothing more than an excuse to undermine Dean in these four eps and I would have no faith that the writers would treat it sympathetically. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If it's grief and Dean is desperate to believe Cas is back that he's ignoring the signs that's one thing, but given how it was used as nothing more than an excuse to undermine Dean in these four eps and I would have no faith that the writers would treat it sympathetically. 

They haven`t treated the character sympathetically last Season and they won`t do it this Season. The best he can get right now is when he rolls over and submits to the will of the characters the writers actually treasure, then he doesn`t receive as much flack.

So really, I wouldn`t expect anything good for the character to come out of anything under Dabb.   

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They haven`t treated the character sympathetically last Season and they won`t do it this Season. The best he can get right now is when he rolls over and submits to the will of the characters the writers actually treasure, then he doesn`t receive as much flack.

So really, I wouldn`t expect anything good for the character to come out of anything under Dabb.   

I'm not expecting anything good.  I'm fully expecting Dean to start popping the Valium again.  It's also why I expect to find out Cas is not Cas becasue it would allow Dabb to really back up the bus over Dean.

I also fully expect Cas to yell at Dean for being mean to Jack.

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm not expecting anything good.  I'm fully expecting Dean to start popping the Valium again.  It's also why I expect to find out Cas is not Cas becasue it would allow Dabb to really back up the bus over Dean.

I also fully expect Cas to yell at Dean for being mean to Jack.

If Cas does yell at Dean over Jack I’m hoping once Dean explains his point of view Cas will show some understanding. Slim chance, but if anyone would allow that it’s Yockey. I’m thinking of something like his episode Lily Sunders Has Some Regrets where they spent most of the episode bickering, but when they did sit down and talk both Cas and Dean were able to respect the others position. They may not have agreed, but they were able to respect it. 

[Reganne]

8 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Yet it's fine for everyone to criticize DEAN for how he's feeling?  Because that's what's been happening on the show.  THAT is why some of view it as imbalanced and biased.  And Dean was responding to SAM's criticism of DEAN, so it's hardly like he just called Sam delusional in a vacuum.   The fact is what Dean said about Sam wasn't untrue and it led to a "breakthrough" on Sam's part actually which if that grief counselor had been remotely competent would have realized instead of berating Dean.  

And as for "I was right on how to deal with Mom and you were wrong" - a) it's not like Sam's never pointed out HE was right about things so why not Dean? and b) why not have SAM say himself, like Dean has often been made to do, I WAS WRONG on the right way to deal with Mom and YOU were right.  How about that?  What's so hard about having Sam admit he was wrong when he was wrong?  How about some actual self-awareness from Sam?

Why would Dean open up to Sam when in the past Sam has done the exact opposite of validating Dean's feelings when Dean's needed it most?  But no one else validates Dean's feelings either, they are universally presented as wrong.  No one is ever on his side least of all when it's different from Sam's.  Even if Sam won't validate his feelings or Dean won't go to Sam due to past experience of Sam using what Dean's revealed to him against him to excuse his taking actions behind Dean's back, lying to him, calling him weak, etc, etc - what's the excuse for no one else ever taking Dean's side?  They always take Sam's.  Who defends Dean by saying "Sam's just mixed up and gets his wires crossed"(which IMO is something Sam has done far more often than Dean)?  When does the outsider with no perspective berate Sam for how he treats Dean?  

Who is always taking Sam's side and not Deans?  Who is they?  

Definitely not the narrative of the show. (by which I'm not just referring to this season but the series as a whole)

 

And how is Dean calling Sam delusional regarding their mom true?  She's technically still alive, so in actuality he's not delusional.  He's right.  This isn't an actual real life situation where someone is either dead or not.  Maybe you could make this argument regarding the grief counsellor perspective, but as far as the show goes, Sam's not delusional.

Also, I don't call Sam telling Dean he was right about something in an attempt to hurt him more.  I don't even recall him telling Dean he was right about something TBH, but I'm sure both of them have at times.  Most of the time, the characters will admit when they're wrong.  Even Sam was confessing to Dean at the end of The Great Big empty that maybe Dean was right about mom.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Reganne

[Pondlass1]

These brother 'talks' are the backbone of the show.  They were different in the beginning.  Sam urged Dean to open up and Dean sometimes did. He allowed himself to be vulnerable. Sam also seemed more understanding in terms of the way his brother handles grief (violence & alcohol mostly).  But today's Sam appears irritated and annoyed with Dean all the time, he makes digs and  remarks but what's worse he displays this faux tolerance and patience.

If season 13 was actually the first season of the series - I would view each brother as light years away from the Sam and Dean I knew in the beginning.  Dab & crew  view Dean as some sort of closed off bully who needs to change.  It's becoming very frustrating for Dean fans  to watch.  

The writing focuses too much on the B story, even the wraith got his ten minutes to outline personal aspirations.  There's too much left unsaid when it comes to S&D.  

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, Reganne said:

And how is Dean calling Sam delusional regarding their mom true?  She's technically still alive, so in actuality he's not delusional.  He's right.  This isn't an actual real life situation where someone is either dead or not.  Maybe you could make this argument regarding the grief counsellor perspective, but as far as the show goes, Sam's not delusional.

Oh, no.  I just realized the alternate universe is Schrodinger's cat.

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

If Cas does yell at Dean over Jack I’m hoping once Dean explains his point of view Cas will show some understanding.

If Cas returns and immediately begins yelling at Dean over his treatment of Jack, that will be a sign to me that it’s not really Cas. 

Also, if this is going to play out as Cas is jack’s father, I wouldn’t expect Cas to be happy about the way Dean has treated jack.   It is not out of character for parents to be a little prickly about the treatment of their children. But I don’t expect it to be a big issue.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Bessie

[MysteryGuest]

I think the majority of Dean's being mean to Jack time has passed.  He was asked by Sam to at least give him a chance, so he accepted having him go with them on the hunt.  But he had no use for him, and treated him like a lackey.  He wasn't cruel to him, but he also wasn't going to buddy up with him.  But when Jack came through for them in the end, I think that was enough for Dean to begin to look at Jack differently.  I'm sure he's still going to be wary of him, as they both should be, but he's going to get more comfortable with him.  

Spoiler

This is exactly how we were told the story would play out, so it's not surprising to me.  They both have to think he's good so they can freak out when he goes missing in the next few episodes.

I don't think Cas will have any reason to berate Dean for his treatment of Jack. 

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, Reganne said:

Who is always taking Sam's side and not Deans?  Who is they?  

Definitely not the narrative of the show. (by which I'm not just referring to this season but the series as a whole)

The series as a whole aside, THIS season as I see it so far, the characters within the show(AKA the narrative including the wonderful therapist this week), the writers(who are using St Sam as their mouthpiece-he can do no wrong, as far as I'm seeing from the actual writing perspective), at least half of the fandom now(and more than that, before this week's atrocity happened) were predominantly taking Sam's side.

I DO think that the very obvious imbalance regarding the handling of the grief arcs, has awakened some quieter Deanfans and prompted them to start posting again AND even opened the eyes of some bi-bros, too; but there has never been a more marked attempt at showing us SuperStSam and MEEN!BullyDean in the entire history of this show, IMO-with this to include The addition of the sad little muffin Jack-who hasn't been called the son of Lucifer/Satan by anyone other than Dean(even though the little cinnamon roll IS the biological son of Lucifer, but hey let's never have anyone except Dean call him that AND to make the delineation between the brothers even more unbalanced, let's have Dean be the only one to voice the thought that he think he's going to go darkside and let's have him use the meanest words that we(Dabb and co.) can think of to have him voice those thoughts). Oh, and then there was Jody, whose interactions with Dean while they were hunting together were uncharacteristically lacking any warmth whatsoever AND they had her flat out tell Patience "You don't have to listen to him." when that line was completely unnecessary within the storyboard, IMO, in trying to get her point across.

And honestly, S13A has just been a continuation of 12B, IMO, and as some here even called it back then.

I remember someone here posting last season that the last scene in Regarding Dean seemed like a memorial to the character more than anything else-and it turns out that that thought was closer to the truth than even I thought, because it was after that one that Dabb and co. went full tilt in their attempt to deconstruct and assassinate the character of Dean that we'd been given for the first 11 seasons of this show.

Dabb is by far the worst showrunner this show has ever had, IMO. He's not just pandering to the fandom's wishes and whims, he's pandering only to those certain segments that are the loudest on Twitter and Tumblr, IMO. Sam's bitterness over Mary and Dean's relationship was bemoaned incessantly and in exactly that way over those two SM outlets last season-as was the whining about Dean "always" being shown as "right", while Sam is "always" shown to be "wrong".

Dabb cares nothing about good storytelling, decent writing, core characterizations, or show canon. He only cares about directly pleasing the teeny bopper mindsets on Tumblr and twitter, IMO.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Myrelle

[Reganne]

16 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The series as a whole aside, THIS season as I see it so far, the characters within the show(AKA the narrative including the wonderful therapist this week), the writers(who are using St Sam as their mouthpiece-he can do no wrong, as far as I'm seeing from the actual writing perspective), at least half of the fandom now(and more than that, before this week's atrocity happened) were predominantly taking Sam's side.

 

Honestly, I do see the narrative painting Dean this way.... for this season.  With having Dean be a Dick towards Jack who they are portraying as innocent.  So far this season... yes I would agree.

TBH though.... I find the narrative has many times through out the series portrayed Sam as wrong and an awful ungrateful brother.  Manly season 8 which is definitely my least favorite season.  And add that to the fact that they had him ditch Kevin to boot.  So I cam see why some would feel this was about Dean in season 13.  That's how I felt about season 8.  That's why I don't get the whole 'st Sam' thing that some people claim.  Sam has been shown to make so many bad choices and mistakes through out the series.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Reganne

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The series as a whole aside, THIS season as I see it so far, the characters within the show(AKA the narrative including the wonderful therapist this week), the writers(who are using St Sam as their mouthpiece-he can do no wrong, as far as I'm seeing from the actual writing perspective), at least half of the fandom now(and more than that, before this week's atrocity happened) were predominantly taking Sam's side.

I DO think that the very obvious imbalance regarding the handling of the grief arcs, has awakened some quieter Deanfans and prompted them to start posting again AND even opened the eyes of some bi-bros, too; but there has never been a more marked attempt at showing us SuperStSam and MEEN!BullyDean in the entire history of this show, IMO-with this to include The addition of the sad little muffin Jack-who hasn't been called the son of Lucifer/Satan by anyone other than Dean(even though the little cinnamon roll IS the biological son of Lucifer, but hey let's never have anyone except Dean call him that AND to make the delineation between the brothers even more unbalanced, let's have Dean be the only one to voice the thought that he think he's going to go darkside and let's have him use the meanest words that we(Dabb and co.) can think of to have him voice those thoughts). Oh, and then there was Jody, whose interactions with Dean while they were hunting together were uncharacteristically lacking any warmth whatsoever AND they had her flat out tell Patience "You don't have to listen to him." when that line was completely unnecessary within the storyboard, IMO, in trying to get her point across.

Agree.  Everything we've seen this season is pure manipulative writing 101.

They even having Jack acting about as dangerous as a new born puppy to make the emphasis on black and white Dean vs St. Sam the Enlightened one even wider.  I've said before the show wants to pretend Jack was some orphan they found on the side of the road and completely ignore the Lucifer connection.

I've always felt that one of the biggest flaws of the writing team was consistency.   But they've managed to be consistent about this issue across four eps so I think its an order that came from Dabb.  That and the framing.  The emphasis on making Sam look bigger and Dean look smaller than they are is also obvious.  In that scene where Dean told Sam off, it looked like a kid yelling at his dad.  Considering how it was handled with Sam not listening to a word Dean said it seemed the writers used it as a set up for this ep to make Dean sorry he inconvenienced Sam and Jack with his feelings.

[Bessie]

20 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The addition of the sad little muffin Jack-who hasn't been called the son of Lucifer/Satan by anyone other than Dean(even though the little cinnamon roll IS the biological son of Lucifer, but hey let's never have anyone except Dean call him that AND to make the delineation between the brothers even more unbalanced, let's have Dean be the only one to voice the thought that he think he's going to go darkside and let's have him use the meanest words that we(Dabb and co.) can think of to have him voice those thoughts). Oh, and then there was Jody, whose interactions with Dean while they were hunting together were uncharacteristically lacking any warmth whatsoever AND they had her flat out tell Patience "You don't have to listen to him." when that line was completely unnecessary within the storyboard, IMO, in trying to get her point across.

The way you describe this sounds like the perfect setup for the usual outcome.  Dean is right and everyone else is wrong. And if only they had listened to him, bad things wouldn't have happened. I hadn't been viewing it that way, but I won't be surprised if that's the outcome. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Bessie

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

That's why I don't get the whole 'st Sam' thing that some people claim.  Sam has been shown to make so many bad choices and mistakes through out the series.

It is Dabb's doing. This is obviously his idea of "balancing" things out and making S8 up to the Sam fandom. Gonzosgirl has already posted some great thoughts on this here. Basically, he is throwing Dean under the bus in an even worse manner for those segments of the fandom who have continued to complain about S8 AKA the loudest segments of tumblr and twitter-not the largest segments, mind you, just the loudest.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

These brother 'talks' are the backbone of the show.  They were different in the beginning.  Sam urged Dean to open up and Dean sometimes did. He allowed himself to be vulnerable. Sam also seemed more understanding in terms of the way his brother handles grief (violence & alcohol mostly).  But today's Sam appears irritated and annoyed with Dean all the time, he makes digs and  remarks but what's worse he displays this faux tolerance and patience.

If season 13 was actually the first season of the series - I would view each brother as light years away from the Sam and Dean I knew in the beginning.  Dab & crew  view Dean as some sort of closed off bully who needs to change.  It's becoming very frustrating for Dean fans  to watch.  

The writing focuses too much on the B story, even the wraith got his ten minutes to outline personal aspirations.  There's too much left unsaid when it comes to S&D.  

So, so much this. I can't remember the last time Sam said something nice to Dean (except when he was pleading for his life and uttered the ridiculous "you'll never hear me say you are anything but good" - don't get me started), or laughed at one of his corny jokes without sneering or rolling his eyes, or even seemed as though it wasn't a chore to be around him. He never defends him when others berate or belittle him, most of the time agreeing with it. Most of the time, I'd be hard pressed to say he even likes his brother. In the early years, I found Sam to be self-centered and a little arrogant - but IMO, that was part of his character. It was cute and annoying, just like a little brother should be. Twelve years later, in his mid-thirties, not so much. And no, I don't think it's the same with Dean. Sure, he teases Sam about being smart, but it's also pretty clear he admires him for it, and he's often bragged about him to others. I don't know if I've ever heard Sam do the same.

ETA: I recall that Sam said he'd take an injured Dean over any number of other hunters in 12x22, so there's that. I can't think of another instance.

Edited November 5, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, Bessie said:

The way you describe this sounds like the perfect setup for the usual outcome.  Dean is right and everyone else is wrong. And if only they had listened to him, bad things wouldn't have happened. I hadn't been viewing it that way, but I won't be surprised if that's the outcome. 

I have some thoughts on this, too, but they need to go in the spoiler thread-the bitterness one, of course.

[MysteryGuest]

36 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The series as a whole aside, THIS season as I see it so far, the characters within the show(AKA the narrative including the wonderful therapist this week), the writers(who are using St Sam as their mouthpiece-he can do no wrong, as far as I'm seeing from the actual writing perspective), at least half of the fandom now(and more than that, before this week's atrocity happened) were predominantly taking Sam's side.

I think part of this response is because of Jack.  He's the new flavor of the month and a large portion of the fan base adores him.  And because he has been portrayed as nothing but innocent so far, Dean's position toward him has seemed unwarranted.  I guess I just don't pay that much attention to what the fans are thinking, because usually, I don't agree with most of them.  There is a story being told here, and it's developing over the course of the season.  Dean's feelings toward Jack were very clearly explained and were valid, and any fans who are now mad at Dean for being mean to Jack need to grow up a bit.  It's called drama.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The way you describe this sounds like the perfect setup for the usual outcome.  Dean is right and everyone else is wrong. And if only they had listened to him, bad things wouldn't have happened. I hadn't been viewing it that way, but I won't be surprised if that's the outcome. 

I can not see this happening in a million years. Last year when he was asked in an interview if there would be some acknowledgment about Dean being right about the BMOL, he responded like "kinda but it won`t be annoying". Because Dean being validated on anything must strike Dabb as being dirty and annoying, I get it. 

And, as it turned out, he wasn`t. And Sam despite being supposedly wrong still got the hero narrative onscreen. 

I do not remotely see this for Dean. He will be blamed, shamed and at fault even IF he was right. This is Dabb`s Supernatural now and that means Dean is to be seen as horrible no matter what and Sam to be seen as wise and wonderful no matter what. 

Does anyone remotely see a chance of balance shifting back to Dean from now till the end of the show in any sympathetic or positive way? I don`t. Not with Dabb and Singer at the helm.

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Does anyone remotely see a chance of balance shifting back to Dean from now till the end of the show in any sympathetic or positive way? I don`t. Not with Dabb and Singer at the helm.

Nope.  Because Dabb can't even talk about Dean.  Nothing about Dean was mentioned at comic con, and whenever Dabb say's "The Winchesters" he clearly means Sam.

Although I wouldnt' be surprised if Jack does something sketchy and Dean defends him and Sam questions him, so that if one the remote chance Jack goes evil Sam still ends up on the right side. 

[ILoveReading]

Brought over from the spoiler thread. 

Quote

I just feel sorry for Cas that he thought the brothers cared enough about him to risk making a deal for while in reality Dean was just like “burn the body” and Sam didn’t exactly put up a fight. Poor Cas :( 

Isn't one of the biggest criticism's against Dean is that he doesn't respect other people boundaries and needs to stop making deals and the show makes him learn multiple lessons about letting go.  When he does make a deal it's selfish and clingy and  he deserved what Sam said in the Purge because Dean does it for himself and not others.  

Cas's body was right in front of him without burnt out wings.  Dean begged God to bring him back, and when told Jack could do anything his mind immediately went to Cas.   So its not like Dean just wrote him off. 

So now he's trying to do just that and he still wrong.

He really has to be the most damned if he does and damned if he doesn't character. 

It doesn't bother me that Dean didn't make a deal because I never liked he when he did it for Sam.

Edited November 5, 2017 by ILoveReading