“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

onestly, I found this odd as well. Sam up to that point in the episode had stated that he no longer hunted and seemed pretty comfortable with that stance. If he was truly out he wouldn't have even cared enough to search for supernatural events even if he passed them along to another hunter. Although if he just happened to come across an oddball news article that screamed supernatural occurrence and was unable to ignore it that would be something different. I don't know; bad writing maybe?

 I didn't think it was odd. Sam spent 20+ years of his life hunting. Maybe some of it was just instinct to read about a case, old habits die hard but he actively chose to not follow up. To me that says more about Sam's state of mind and his intentions than him possibly taking note of stories he read. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I didn't think it was odd. Sam spent 20+ years of his life hunting. Maybe some of it was just instinct to read about a case, old habits die hard but he actively chose to not follow up. To me that says more about Sam's state of mind and his intentions than him possibly taking note of stories he read. 

Like I said it was just bad writing. Was he done with hunting because he felt helpless with his brother and Castiel disappearing into the unknown and not having a clue how to get them back? Or was it because he felt that he had done enough and the world would continue to turn if another hunter picked up the slack? Or was it truly to honor a pact that he had with Dean (that had never been mentioned before!!) that they wouldn't look if the other was thought dead and starting a normal life?  I know it's all up to ones interpretation but when you make a character so wildly ooc just to create drama it's supremely annoying. Season 8 was largely a sucky season even though I enjoyed the Purgatory flashbacks and Benny.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I know it's all up to ones interpretation but when you make a character so wildly ooc just to create drama it's supremely annoying. Season 8 was largely a sucky season even though I enjoyed the Purgatory flashbacks and Benny.

Honestly, I really go back and forth on whether it really WAS OOC for Sam. He's given up hunting before. He's wanted to have a regular life since he was 18 or 19 and went to college. He made a lot of bad decisions as a result of being in the hunting life and had some truly awful things happen to him because of hunting. I really can see him just chucking it all when he though Dean was dead. I'm less convinced he would have blown off Kevin but if he's running from the hunting life then thinking he couldn't find Kevin..might make sense.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly, I really go back and forth on whether it really WAS OOC for Sam.

It wasn't so much the yearning for a normal life that I found to be out of character but him not trying to find out what happened to Dean. And this coming from a guy that knew that his brother was dead and in hell just a few years prior and still tried to find a way to get him back. That being said even if there was some BS agreement in place to not look for each other his complete blow off of Kevin was very out of character.

Edited September 23, 2017 by DeeDee79

[trxr4kids]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly, I really go back and forth on whether it really WAS OOC for Sam.

I have a hard time with that too especially in light of last season where he was suddenly team all monsters must die and it can be over or words to that effect.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I have a hard time with that too especially in light of last season where he was suddenly team all monsters must die and it can be over or words to that effect.

Ugh..that made absolutely no sense at all!

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Ugh..that made absolutely no sense at all!

 IMO Sam was trying to connect with Mary. I think he did all of that to stay attached to Mary. It's the only way his about face makes sense for me.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 IMO Sam was trying to connect with Mary.

Even so it was still out of character IMO. It would have been more in line with his character to have talked with Mary about how hunting isn't as black & white as it may have been when she was a young hunter. Sure she's his mother and he wants to have a connection with her but he's also the one that said that their job wasn't to kill all supernatural beings but to kill evil.

[AwesomO4000]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He's wanted to have a regular life since he was 18 or 19 and went to college.

I disagree. As I said above, Sam has been arguing in favor of hunting since season 2, sometimes as a counterpoint to Dean's asking "why do we even do this" type questions. He gave it up in early season 5, but i don't think it was because he wanted to. He gave it up then because he thought he had to to address his addiction issues which were affecting his ability to hunt... some issues of which occurred because he thought it would make him a better hunter. In my opinion, despite the burning of his fake IDs, Sam had every intention of eventually going back to hunting if he could. And once he did, I saw no regret. His declaration at the end of "Swap Meat" I thought was fairly decisive and dismissive of "normal apple pie life." Sam didn't show any sign of even considering it in "The French Mistake" and seemed genuinely happy to be back to Bobby's old house and back to his real life where he could hunt and "make a difference." Carver just chose to ignore that in my opinion.

I'm actually curious though and not being snarky at all when I ask when do you consider the most recent time - before this season 8 premier - when Sam seriously looked like he wanted to quit hunting? For me, there was that weird time in "Chris Angel..." in season 4 (and that still leaves me saying "what the hell does that mean?"), but before that it was sometime in early season 2 that I remember. So I remember one time since season 2 when Sam seemed to consider giving up hunting as something he wanted to do.* That's not a lot, in my opinion. Dean himself talked about it just as much - actually more by quite a bit if I'm remembering correctly - but it's never talked about as something Dean would intrinsically want even when he muses about it sometimes. So I am wondering when in the show did Sam talk about wanting to give up hunting that made it something you think was not out of character?

* To me it didn't seem like Sam wanted to give up hunting in season 5. He actively looked into things and tried to get Bobby to get other hunters on it and actively wished that he could help.

[Pondlass1]

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

I honestly feel that the only thing Sam has to feel guilty about is abandoning Kevin.  

Holy Moly!! I am gobsmacked!!

I can only assume we don't all get the same versions of episodes...???

[Wayward Son]

I'm too lazy to go through posts and direct quote, but I'm in total agreement with those who stated that Sam's initial reaction to Dean's return is happiness. He only grew resentful when Dean went on the attack for "abandoning" him and criticising Sam's right to live the life he wanted to live.

 

S13 Spoiler

Spoiler

Which is why I hope Mary is as overly critical of Dean as Dean was of Sam. Karmas a bitch and all ;)

Edited September 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[mertensia]

Seriously, the only way I can get through some episodes of season eight is to tell myself "at some point Sam said 'Everything I did or didn't do while you were in Purgatory was because you and Cas being gone and Crowley taking Kevin just made me have a mental breakdown. So I drove until I hit the dog, and just stayed. Because I just couldn't cope.' to Dean." 

Because that makes sense. 

[Aeryn13]

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but I'm in total agreement with those who stated that Sam's initial reaction to Dean's return is happiness. 

I would say happiness for that first hug, so approximately 2 seconds. After that, it immediately went downhill, it was like Dean`s presence annoyed him. Did he seriously not consider the question "what did you do while I was gone?" would come up? And did he seriously not consider "I did absolutely nothing and looked nowhere" would NOT elicit hurt and anger? It would do that for any normal person. Sam made no attempt to really explain himself but the second Dean dared to show very normal hurt and disappointment, he grew resentful. I get he expects Dean to roll over and never question the validity of what Sam does ever or else it is Dean being horrible to him but when in the cursed coin episode Sam exclaimed how he told Dean everything from the jump, it was a joke. He explained jacksquat. He told Dean he quit, had a good year and expected that to go over wonderfully.

Yes, Dean wasn`t nice and peachy with that and he made some agressive remarks but for my money he was way too nice in response to such a behaviour. I would have toppled Sam down from his horse of "never dare to criticize me" in no time. And I wouldn`t have cared about any tantrums that followed. Dean is unfortunately too quick to fold to those. That`s why that fucking behaviour persists on both ends.

 

As for Season 13

Spoiler

IMO Karma can not be a bigger bitch at this point than Mary already is so I`m sure it will be used as some big lesson for Dean where he has to apologize profusely to Sam and her and urgh. With many condescending speeches by Sam where the line readings make me wanna throw something out the window. Moralizing superior, supposedly earnest Sam is the least workeable version of the character that show has ever produced.

What`s worse is IMO what I read Dabb saying about Misery being in a position to comment on who Sam and Dean were vs. who they are now. Yeah, that bitch is gonna comment on the character alright. She made it clear who she thought he is back then, dumb and useless and only good for being the joke. What is it now? How horrible he is on top of that to poor Sam and Spawnifer and ice-water Mary? How much of a cold-blooded killer from birth on? Hey, maybe she can draw from Sam`s "you`be never been anything but a selfish coward all your life" speech.  

Meanwhile, she acted like Sam walked on water back then so I guess now she proclaims him Jesus in full. Can`t wait.    

God, I so wished Dean would never have any interaction with that horrible character ever again.     

[shang yiet]

They made a deal not to look for each other. So Sam kept the deal. Dean should have been pleased that Sam was able to get on with his life despite his grief.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Holy Moly!! I am gobsmacked!!

I can only assume we don't all get the same versions of episodes...???

I'm not sure, so I just want to clarify that I didn't mean for all 12 seasons.  I just meant for what happened between seasons 7 and 8.

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I would say happiness for that first hug, so approximately 2 seconds. After that, it immediately went downhill, it was like Dean`s presence annoyed him. Did he seriously not consider the question "what did you do while I was gone?" would come up? And did he seriously not consider "I did absolutely nothing and looked nowhere" would NOT elicit hurt and anger? It would do that for any normal person. Sam made no attempt to really explain himself but the second Dean dared to show very normal hurt and disappointment, he grew resentful. I get he expects Dean to roll over and never question the validity of what Sam does ever or else it is Dean being horrible to him but when in the cursed coin episode Sam exclaimed how he told Dean everything from the jump, it was a joke. He explained jacksquat. He told Dean he quit, had a good year and expected that to go over wonderfully.

Yes, Dean wasn`t nice and peachy with that and he made some agressive remarks but for my money he was way too nice in response to such a behaviour. I would have toppled Sam down from his horse of "never dare to criticize me" in no time. And I wouldn`t have cared about any tantrums that followed. Dean is unfortunately too quick to fold to those. That`s why that fucking behaviour persists on both ends.

 

As for Season 13

  Reveal hidden contents

IMO Karma can not be a bigger bitch at this point than Mary already is so I`m sure it will be used as some big lesson for Dean where he has to apologize profusely to Sam and her and urgh. With many condescending speeches by Sam where the line readings make me wanna throw something out the window. Moralizing superior, supposedly earnest Sam is the least workeable version of the character that show has ever produced.

What`s worse is IMO what I read Dabb saying about Misery being in a position to comment on who Sam and Dean were vs. who they are now. Yeah, that bitch is gonna comment on the character alright. She made it clear who she thought he is back then, dumb and useless and only good for being the joke. What is it now? How horrible he is on top of that to poor Sam and Spawnifer and ice-water Mary? How much of a cold-blooded killer from birth on? Hey, maybe she can draw from Sam`s "you`be never been anything but a selfish coward all your life" speech.  

Meanwhile, she acted like Sam walked on water back then so I guess now she proclaims him Jesus in full. Can`t wait.    

God, I so wished Dean would never have any interaction with that horrible character ever again.     

And as others had said the two made a pact (stupidly off screen, but since Dean didn't refute the fact it was made I'd assume it's safe to say it happened) and Sam stuck to it. It's not Sam's problem that Dean's a major league hypocrite who couldn't handle it. If I had been Sam who had to listen to Dean's endless whining and criticisms of my life choices I'd have walked out the door and not looked back. 

 

But then if I had been Sam, after the possession drama Id have got a restraining order and hired security guards with  the order to do whatever it took to keep Dean the hell away from me. So it's not really that surprising I'd have no patience for Dean and his bull crap. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

I kept waiting for Sam to say "I am so happy you're alive, man!" not "I can't believe your alive". I honestly don't remember that Sam ever told Dean he was grateful he was alive and well. I mean sure it was probably a given, it still seems like something Dean could have benefited from hearing instead of how wrong he was for still being on edge and for enjoying the hell out of a burger. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

And as others had said the two made a pact (stupidly off screen, but since Dean didn't refute the fact it was made I'd assume it's safe to say it happened) and Sam stuck to it. It's not Sam's problem that Dean's a major league hypocrite who couldn't handle it. If I had been Sam who had to listen to Dean's endless whining and criticisms of my life choices I'd have walked out the door and not looked back. 

I don' tknow why everybody keeps saying this was done off-screen.  In NO Rest for the Wicked, DEan tells Sam to keep hunting, remember what Dad taught him and remember what he taught him, and then in Lazarus Rising yelled at him when he thought that Sam had done something skeevy to bring him back.  And in Swan Song Sam told Dean to go find Lisa and Ben and live an apple pie life and not poke at the cage.  Maybe they didnt' say "I state your name solemnly swear to let my brother stay dead" but they kept telling each other not to bring them back.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

But then if I had been Sam, after the possession drama Id have got a restraining order and hired security guards with  the order to do whatever it took to keep Dean the hell away from me. So it's not really that surprising I'd have no patience for Dean and his bull crap. 

If I was Dean I would have given Sam the mother all major league hypocrite speeches since Sam did the exact same thing.  He went behind Dean's back and lied, when Dean told him not to use the book of the damned because bad things would happen.  Sam did it anyway.  While saving Dean he sacrificed innocents to get what the wanted (Lester, and Oscar), and he said he didn't want to be alone.  (The Prisoner).  The exact same things he accused Dean being selfish for. 

This is why I lose sympathy for Sam, because he has no issue lying or going behind Dean's back or manipulating him when something he wants is on the line. He did it last season with the brits.

Spoiler

He seems to be doing it again with Jack, with the whole, You want Jack dead, you must want me dead.  

Edited September 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If I was Dean I would have given Sam the mother all major league hypocrite speeches since Sam did the exact same thing.  He went behind Dean's back and lied, when Dean told him not to use the book of the damned because bad things would happen.  Sam did it anyway.  While saving Dean he sacrificed innocents to get what the wanted (Lester, and Oscar), and he said he didn't want to be alone.  (The Prisoner).  The exact same things he accused Dean being selfish for.

That's what really bugged me about season 10, even though I liked a lot of the epis. It seemed so out-of-character for Sam to do all the same things that he yelled at Dean about. And, you're right.  It totally made him a hypocrite.  But, then Lucifer's speech to him in The Devil's in the Details, made me rethink at least a little bit on the issue.  Dean went nuts over Sam not trying to save him and gave him the guilt trip of a lifetime.  So, he was so scared of making that same mistake twice, he overcorrected

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 If I had been Sam who had to listen to Dean's endless whining and criticisms of my life choices I'd have walked out the door and not looked back. 

Would have been fine by me, actually I would have cheered because back in the first half of Season 8 Dean seemed to be so bewildered he actually grew a spine when it came to Sam. I was so heartened watching that and so disheartened when it all went away for another round of Sam`s Chosen One quest. Urgh.

That also would have neatly taken care of the possession problem because IMO it needed Season 8.B to take Dean back to a point of such patheticness as to do that.

Quote

And as others had said the two made a pact (stupidly off screen, but since Dean didn't refute the fact it was made I'd assume it's safe to say it happened) and Sam stuck to it. It's not Sam's problem that Dean's a major league hypocrite who couldn't handle it. 

Leaving aside that the pact was obviously only invented because at that point Dabb and Singer wanted to blow smoke up Sam`s ass for being so wonderfully  mature, they couldn`t even set it up properly. 

Sam knows about the Supernatural, he didn`t see Dean die per se. He could have at least invested a modicum of effort into searching and finding some answers. 

Even normal people would expect their loved ones to put up the real life equivalent of such a supernatural effort. And I don`t think it makes anyone a hypocrite to be flabbergasted by a response to "yeah, whatthefuckever, I did nothing" if they came back. Noone would be pleased about that, not even masochists.

Sam did fuck all - and I never heard them made a pact that covered "fuck all" - and expected to get validated for it. Tough cookies for him that even Dean - at that point - wasn`t as pathetic as to do that. 

Quote

 Dean went nuts over Sam not trying to save him and gave him the guilt trip of a lifetime.  So, he was so scared of making that same mistake twice, he overcorrected

So somehow it becomes Dean`s fault again when Sam acts wrongly? 

That`s why the speech in the church in the Season 8 Finale bugged me so much. It was entirely about how Dean`s wrong response triggered Sam feeling bad over his actions now. Not that Sam considered anything a mistake in and of itself. Only bad Dean made him feel that way. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

But then if I had been Sam, after the possession drama Id have got a restraining order and hired security guards with  the order to do whatever it took to keep Dean the hell away from me. So it's not really that surprising I'd have no patience for Dean and his bull crap. 

If Sam had wanted to keep Dean the hell away from him, all he had to do was walk out the door.  No restraining order or security guards needed--it's not like Dean was going to hunt him down.  He could have quit hunting and gone back to school/settled down with some nice girl (or Amelia) or found someone else to hunt with if he wanted to keep hunting (they certainly had enough spare hunters to work with in season 12).  He could have told Dean (either nicely or angrily) that he didn't want him messing up his life anymore (as he perceived it) and so buh-bye.  But *he chose* to stay.  He chose to punish Dean by making him feel guilty, jump through hoops to prove himself over and over, and kept the threat of him leaving dangling over Dean's head at all times.  So in terms of no patience with a Winchester and his bull crap, Dean isn't the one I'm angry with. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If Sam had wanted to keep Dean the hell away from him, all he had to do was walk out the door.  No restraining order or security guards needed--it's not like Dean was going to hunt him down.  He could have quit hunting and gone back to school/settled down with some nice girl (or Amelia) or found someone else to hunt with of he wanted to keep hunting (they certainly had enough spare hunters to work with in season 12).  He could have told Dean (either nicely or angrily) that he didn't want him messing up his life anymore (as he perceived it) and so buh-bye.  But *he chose* to stay.  He chose to punish Dean by making him feel guilty, jump through hoops to prove himself over and over, and kept the threat of him leaving dangling over Dean's head at all times.  So in terms of no patience with a Winchester and his bull crap, Dean isn't the one I'm angry with. 

True indeed. Sam has shown that he's perfectly capable of standing up for himself and he has had no trouble stating when he was pissed at Dean or when he felt that he crossed a line. He's not fragile and Dean isn't his jailer.

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

nd as others had said the two made a pact (stupidly off screen, but since Dean didn't refute the fact it was made I'd assume it's safe to say it happened) and Sam stuck to it. It's not Sam's problem

Sam not looking for Dean has absolutely nothing to do with any silly pact.  Their sick co-dependence is the stuff of legends.  

Half way through season 7 Dean disappeared in a puff of smoke (Time After Time).  Not only did Sam not know where he went, he didn't even know where he went in the expanse of time.  But Sam didn't diddle about or look for a dog to hit, he moved straight into "Find Dean" mode.  He engaged Sheriff Jodi, used that hairy brainpower and they found Dean.  It was clever, Dean looked fantastic in 1940 costume and all was well.

Cue season 7 finale.   Dean again disappears in a puff of smoke.  He's probably gone to purgatory.  He could be dead?  But there's only bits of black Levi goo on the walls - no human gloop.  Sam would have checked that surely?  So Dean's in purgatory - pretty sure.... 

Cue season 8 premiere.  Along comes  'Lets give'em some contrived angst soap' Carver.  Out of the blue Sam is suddenly 'mature'.  And according to Carver 'mature' equals Sam tossing phones, jumping into Baby, hitting a dog, then shacking up with a horrible haired vet.  Around the world audiences sat up startled and yelled a resounding... WTF show!!!!

It was writing at its worst.  I will never forgive Carver for this OOC stupidity at the expense of Sam. And I'm not even a Sam fan.  Dean's my boy.  But there is no way in hell Sam would wash his hands of Dean.  No way!!  Not unless he had a major mental breakdown... which I can forgive.  If only they'd shown  it.

A pact ? - he was sticking to the pact?   I'm rolling my eyes so hard :(  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But Sam didn't diddle about or look for a dog to hit

I loved the sarcastic "hit a dog" comment from Crowley to Sam. That entire concept was so ludicrous, there should have been way more "hit a dog" jokes. When Death made that silly thing about Dean needing to kill Sam right this moment or Sam would dodgedly try to bring him back from Planet Outfield (or something), I wanted an equally sarcastic "hey, how about giving him a dog instead" comment inserted. That entire scene made Death so stupid.

Then Sam went and gave the equally ludicrous "you will never hear me say you are anything but good" speech to Dean that had also already been proven false by the show itself.

Dean killing Death was stupid as hell but at least it didn`t refute previously stated canon as well. It was JUST stupid. Guess, that was supposed to be progress?   

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

So somehow it becomes Dean`s fault again when Sam acts wrongly? 

That`s why the speech in the church in the Season 8 Finale bugged me so much. It was entirely about how Dean`s wrong response triggered Sam feeling bad over his actions now. Not that Sam considered anything a mistake in and of itself. Only bad Dean made him feel that way. 

It doesn't excuse Sam for his actions, but I do think his guilt from not looking for Dean in purgatory played  a huge part in his insistence to save Dean from the mark at all costs.  He was trying to make up for his past mistakes.  That's the way I've always seen it.  There are always going to be reasons for why characters act a certain way, but that in no way makes what they did right or does it ever absolve them from blame, responsibility or consequences.  THe thing about this show, is that the characters themselves aren't perfect, so if you look hard enough, you'll find that more than one character might be at fault for something.  Though I wouldn't say Dean's fault lies in feeling hurt by Sam not looking for him in purgatory in this particular scenario.

 

I think his fault in this situation lies in his choice to take on the mark in the first place.  Of course you could say that he took on the mark so rationally because of his guilt over Kevin's death and the situation with Gadreel.  I always felt that was a reason why he gave no care to the consequences of doing so.  While Sam's reactions towards Dean after this incident may have helped sparked Dean's action of taking on the mark, that doesn't mean that Dean taking on the mark is now all Sam's fault and that Dean would then be blame free.  Dean's actions are still his own.

[Katy M]

47 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam not looking for Dean has absolutely nothing to do with any silly pact.  Their sick co-dependence is the stuff of legends.

Half way through season 7 Dean disappeared in a puff of smoke (Time After Time).  Not only did Sam not know where he went, he didn't even know where he went in the expanse of time.  But Sam didn't diddle about or look for a dog to hit, he moved straight into "Find Dean" mode.  He engaged Sheriff Jodi, used that hairy brainpower and they found Dean.  It was clever, Dean looked fantastic in 1940 costume and all was well.

Cue season 7 finale.   Dean again disappears in a puff of smoke.  He's probably gone to purgatory.  He could be dead?  But there's only bits of black Levi goo on the walls - no human gloop.  Sam would have checked that surely?  So Dean's in purgatory - pretty sure.... 

Cue season 8 premiere.  Along comes  'Lets give'em some contrived angst soap' Carver.  Out of the blue Sam is suddenly 'mature'.  And according to Carver 'mature' equals Sam tossing phones, jumping into Baby, hitting a dog, then shacking up with a horrible haired vet.  Around the world audiences sat up startled and yelled a resounding... WTF show!!!!

It was writing at its worst.  I will never forgive Carver for this OOC stupidity at the expense of Sam. And I'm not even a Sam fan.  Dean's my boy.  But there is no way in hell Sam would wash his hands of Dean.  No way!!  Not unless he had a major mental breakdown... which I can forgive.  If only they'd shown  it.

A pact ? - he was sticking to the pact?   I'm rolling my eyes so hard :(  

I don't think it occurred to SAm that Dean went to Purgatory.  I think he thought that he blew up and was dead. Which is why I don't fault him for not looking for him.  He seemed geneuinely surprised when Dean said he had been in Purgatory. He didn't say "yeah, that's what I figured.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, Reganne said:

It doesn't excuse Sam for his actions, but I do think his guilt from not looking for Dean in purgatory played  a huge part in his insistence to save Dean from the mark at all costs.  He was trying to make up for his past mistakes.

I get this viewpoint but I've always thought that Sam's laser focus in finding a way to rid Dean of the MOC was a result of having him die in his arms ( for the 2nd time ) and seeing him return as a demon. I don't think either of them grasped the seriousness of the consequences of the Mark until after Metatron killed him.

[Aeryn13]

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While Sam's reactions towards Dean after this incident may have helped sparked Dean's action of taking on the mark, that doesn't mean that Dean taking on the mark is now all Sam's fault and that Dean would then be blame free.  Dean's actions are still his own.

I agree. Dean taking on the MOC was his choice. I don`t give any other character responsibility for it. Crowley set the whole situation up but he didn`t force Dean. Cain has responsibility for sharing his cursed Mark but equally he didn`t force Dean to be the recipient. One was Cain`s choice and the other, relatively unrelated, was Dean`s choice.

In the same way I give Sam full responsibility for using the book of evil to remove the Mark. To not share that little tidbit after he learned the truth from Death. Noone made him do that. He freaking decided.

Just liked he decided to gobble up Ruby`s and any other demon`s blood, bar that of Azazel as a baby or the stuff those writers forced down his mouth. Otherwise, he freaking consented to it. Just like Dean decided to make the stupid deal of his own free will. 

What bugs me with Sam is that as long as Sam wants to do something bad enough, he does so and convinces himself it`s mighty fine. Then if it doesn`t work out in the way he wanted or expected, somehow he retcons it and suddenly he is all "it`s my fault but ..."  To me he is the ultimate "hand in the cookie jar" guy. Taking the forbidden cookies is never wrong or the problem, only ever when he is found out.

And depending on whichever phase he currently is "identifying with monsters/fearing his dark side and therefore being judgmental of anything "evil"/we have to save everybody/we can`t save everybody/hunting is good and worthy/I want normal etc", we get the lecturing speeches for it. The latest nugget was "leadership is cool". I can only guess how that will somehow become Dean`s fault for doing too much/not enough when anything doesn`t work out.  

Edited September 23, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think it occurred to SAm that Dean went to Purgatory.  I think he thought that he blew up and was dead. Which is why I don't fault him for not looking for him.  He seemed geneuinely surprised when Dean said he had been in Purgatory. He didn't say "yeah, that's what I figured.

I don't understand how Sam wouldn't think Dean went to Purgatory.  He saw Dick explode all over Dean and then saw Dean and Cas sucked into a vortex of some kind. Given Sam already knew they could open a door/portal to Purgatory, which is how the Leviathans got to Earth via Cas in the first place, why wouldn't he think a door could be opened again? 

That's what baffles me about Sam being all 'I should have looked more in s11". Okay fine, I'll swallow the retcon from him not looking at all to kind of sort of looking but honestly how could he forget seeing the portal that Cas opened?

[FlickChick]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand how Sam wouldn't think Dean went to Purgatory.  He saw Dick explode all over Dean and then saw Dean and Cas sucked into a vortex of some kind. Given Sam already knew they could open a door/portal to Purgatory, which is how the Leviathans got to Earth via Cas in the first place, why wouldn't he think a door could be opened again? 

That's what baffles me about Sam being all 'I should have looked more in s11". Okay fine, I'll swallow the retcon from him not looking at all to kind of sort of looking but honestly how could he forget seeing the portal that Cas opened?.

Add to that that Sam answered the Alpha Vampire's question of where to monster "souls" go when they die? Sam answered "Purgatory", so why wouldn't he even consider that possibility now? I personally hated how Carver began S8 with this whole "we made a pact" shit. It never made any sense to me. Still doesn't.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Add to that that Sam answered the Alpha Vampire's question of where to monster "souls" go when they die? Sam answered "Purgatory", so why wouldn't he even consider that possibility now? I personally hated how Carver began S8 with this whole "we made a pact" shit. It never made any sense to me. Still doesn't.

I can swallow the pact thing even though they never did that before. I could kind of buy that Sam may have considered Purgatory and dismissed it as being impossible to access so that meant Dean was dead.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

settled down with some nice girl (or Amelia) 

LOL!  This is pure gold!!

[Katy M]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand how Sam wouldn't think Dean went to Purgatory.  He saw Dick explode all over Dean and then saw Dean and Cas sucked into a vortex of some kind. Given Sam already knew they could open a door/portal to Purgatory, which is how the Leviathans got to Earth via Cas in the first place, why wouldn't he think a door could be opened again? 

That's what baffles me about Sam being all 'I should have looked more in s11". Okay fine, I'll swallow the retcon from him not looking at all to kind of sort of looking but honestly how could he forget seeing the portal that Cas opened?

But, why would he go to purgatory? Dick exploded.  From Sam's perspective, Dick may have gone to Purgatory, or he may have been completely destroyed.  When they kill demons with the special weapons, they don't go to Hell, as far as S&D know, they are destroyed.  I didn't see a vortex.  I'm not saying it didn't happen, but evereyting was kind of fast.  It just looked like a big explosion to me.  So, I would have thought they were dead.  And, even if Sam was absolutely certain that they did go to Purgatory, does that mean that he knew how to get them out? No.  That portal that they opened at the beginning of the season required an eclipse.  And, even if he waited for an eclipse and got virgin blood and blood from a Purgatory native (where's that going to come from) and opened a portal, how would that get Dean and Cas out.  He didn't have that angelic sucking out power that Cas would have had.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, why would he go to purgatory? Dick exploded.  From Sam's perspective, Dick may have gone to Purgatory, or he may have been completely destroyed.  When they kill demons with the special weapons, they don't go to Hell, as far as S&D know, they are destroyed.  I didn't see a vortex.  I'm not saying it didn't happen, but evereyting was kind of fast.  It just looked like a big explosion to me. 

There were shockwaves emanating from Dick out to Dean and Cas, then the waves kind of started imploding and then Dick exploded. IMO it was  creating a vortex or opening some kind of portal that sucked them through. We don't see it happen but that's what  I took those energy waves to be considering they went missing right after that.

But aside from that Sam knows that monsters go to Purgatory when they die. He knew that from Eve IIRC. Sam researches the crap out of everything, but doesn't research or ask someone else to research Purgatory.  Sam knows they can open portals to Hell and can die and get into Heaven or summon a reaper and they can time travel. IMO for Sam to not consider Purgatory, is just...inexplicable other than the heaviest dose of Plotonium.

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There were shockwaves emanating from Dick out to Dean and Cas, then the waves kind of started imploding and then Dick exploded. IMO it was  creating a vortex or opening some kind of portal that sucked them through. We don't see it happen but that's what  I took those energy waves to be considering they went missing right after that.

But aside from that Sam knows that monsters go to Purgatory when they die. He knew that from Eve IIRC. Sam researches the crap out of everything, but doesn't research or ask someone else to research Purgatory.  Sam knows they can open portals to Hell and can die and get into Heaven or summon a reaper and they can time travel. IMO for Sam to not consider Purgatory, is just...inexplicable other than the heaviest dose of Plotonium.

Taht's where monsters go when you kill them by some normal means, such as decapitation or silver to the heart.  I don't think Dick did go back to Purgatory, honestly.  But, even if Dick went to Purgatory that doesn't mean that is where Cas and Dean would go.  Because he also knows that Purgatory is not where humans go when they die.  And, also, I've I already said there was no reasonable way to get them out anyway.  

When did they ever open a portal to Hell?  How would dying to get into Heaven help?  They can only time travel with Cas's help.  

I don't know.  I just think that letting dead Deans lie (but not alive Kevins) was the most reasonable thing done on this show to date.  But, I understand that 99.99 percent of everyone else disagrees with me.   So, that's all I'm gonna say on the matter.

[trxr4kids]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam knows they can open portals to Hell and can die and get into Heaven or summon a reaper and they can time travel. IMO for Sam to not consider Purgatory, is just...inexplicable other than the heaviest dose of Plotonium.

Not to mention you can just hire a rogue reaper to get you into purgatory, easy peasy. 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But, why would he go to purgatory? Dick exploded. 

As pointed out in the dialogue above or pages back, in the S7 finale when Dean and Cas disappear, Sam asks Crowley where he is, which I took to mean Sam realized Dean was blasted somewhere after witnessing the blast/shock waves. The most logical conclusion to come to would be where dick went, purgatory.

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

When did they ever open a portal to Hell?

Swan Song. ETA: maybe other times too, I ffwd a lot, lol

Edited September 24, 2017 by trxr4kids

[RulerofallIsurvey]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There were shockwaves emanating from Dick out to Dean and Cas, then the waves kind of started imploding and then Dick exploded. IMO it was  creating a vortex or opening some kind of portal that sucked them through. We don't see it happen but that's what  I took those energy waves to be considering they went missing right after that.

I agree with @Katy M on this one.  And you just said as much: We don't see it happen.  So saying Sam should have known there was a portal to Purgatory opened by a vortex that he didn't see is convenient 20/20 hindsight, IMO.  

20 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Not to mention you can just hire a rogue reaper to get you into purgatory, easy peasy. 

Well, Dean hired the reaper, not Sam.  Dean's the one with all the reaper connections, as I recall.  

24 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Swan Song. ETA: maybe other times too, I ffwd a lot, lol

The portal in Swan Song was to Lucifer's cage, not just Hell in general.  And it took all five horseman's rings to open it.  I think Death already had his back, so Sam wouldn't have been able to do that at the beginning of S8 either.  

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Taht's where monsters go when you kill them by some normal means, such as decapitation or silver to the heart.  I don't think Dick did go back to Purgatory, honestly.  But, even if Dick went to Purgatory that doesn't mean that is where Cas and Dean would go.  Because he also knows that Purgatory is not where humans go when they die.  And, also, I've I already said there was no reasonable way to get them out anyway.  

When did they ever open a portal to Hell?  How would dying to get into Heaven help?  They can only time travel with Cas's help.  

I don't know.  I just think that letting dead Deans lie (but not alive Kevins) was the most reasonable thing done on this show to date.  But, I understand that 99.99 percent of everyone else disagrees with me.   So, that's all I'm gonna say on the matter.

They used the horsemens rings to open a portal to Hell in Swan Song. It opened one in Detroit and at Stull Cemetery.

He could have summoned Death for help. Dean killed himself to get a meeting with Death to get Sam's soul out of Hell. They are ways to move through time without Cas like when Dean time traveled in s7 because he was attached to Chronos. Theoretically any angel should be able to help them.  Maybe even a demon or twenty for the right price. 

I understand your viewpoint. I'm just saying that I think the show itself didn't have any good reason for Sam not try any or all of those things other than Sam just bailed and he was good with it.

[trxr4kids]

26 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, Dean hired the reaper, not Sam.  Dean's the one with all the reaper connections, as I recall.  

Well Dean and Sam both astral projected in Death Takes a Holiday and Sam had died enough times before then to have a special reaper connection I would think. But what do I know.

 

26 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The portal in Swan Song was to Lucifer's cage, not just Hell in general.

Sure but as we saw you just get a reaper to get you into purgatory and then you skip to hell or just go to hell via a doorway and walk to the cage, so they're all connected easy as pie. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by trxr4kids
overuse of think, kidding typos, I never think

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree with @Katy M on this one.  And you just said as much: We don't see it happen.  So saying Sam should have known there was a portal to Purgatory opened by a vortex that he didn't see is convenient 20/20 hindsight, IMO.  

I explained in the rest of my comment, that even outside of the my vortex theory, that Sam had enough knowledge about Purgatory, to at least have consider that Purgatory was an option. That's not hindsight. That's me looking at Sam's characterization and intellect and finding it unlikely that he would not have considered it.  JMO on that.
 

2 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Well Dean and Sam both astral projected in Death Takes a Holiday and Sam had died enough times before then I'd think to have a special reaper connection I would think. But what do I know.

Oh I totally forgot about this. That's another good idea! Sam knew Tessa. He could have summoned her for help. 

[catrox14]

ETA: My point is that Sam KNEW portals to other dimensions existed including Purgatory. The challenge for Sam would be figuring out how to access said portal. Sam didn't even try, or didn't try enough...whatever that was in s11.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Well Dean and Sam both astral projected in Death Takes a Holiday and Sam had died enough times before then to have a special reaper connection I would think. But what do I know.

Sam probably should have a reaper connection by now.  We've just never seen it.  It's always been Dean.  

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Sure but as we saw you just get a reaper to get you into purgatory and then you skip to hell or just go to hell via a doorway and walk to the cage, so they're all connected easy as pie. 

Yeah, but that was after the S8 premier - and Sam didn't know that at the time of the end of S7.  It's kind of revisionist history and 20;/20 hindsight, like I said.  

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: My point is that Sam KNEW portals to other dimensions existed including Purgatory. The challenge for Sam would be figuring out how to access said portal. Sam didn't even try, or didn't try enough...whatever that was in s11.

I'm not saying it wasn't weird for Sam not to try to find Dean - and especially Kevin - I thought it was (weird and ooc) the first time I watched too.  I'm just saying that some of the things people are saying that Sam should have known or tried, as of the beginning of S8, are conveniently convenient hindsight since they hadn't been introduced into the lore as of that point.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm not saying it wasn't weird for Sam not to try to find Dean - and especially Kevin - I thought it was (weird and ooc) the first time I watched too.  I'm just saying that some of the things people are saying that Sam should have known or tried, as of the beginning of S8, are conveniently convenient hindsight since they hadn't been introduced into the lore as of that point.

Seems to me only Rogue Reapers and the backdoor to Hell came about after 8.1.  But Sam 's ability to use his brain, his logic, reason,and even intuition,  existed before 8.1. Why did that all go missing? Did he just check out? I think he must have.

Edited September 24, 2017 by catrox14

[CluelessDrifter]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That's what baffles me about Sam being all 'I should have looked more in s11". Okay fine, I'll swallow the retcon from him not looking at all to kind of sort of looking but honestly how could he forget seeing the portal that Cas opened?

Well, in fairness, I always thought that Carver intentionally forgot about Sera Gamble's era, so how could Sam be expected to remember anything like the portal Cas opened?

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Leaving aside that the pact was obviously only invented because at that point Dabb and Singer wanted to blow smoke up Sam`s ass for being so wonderfully  mature, they couldn`t even set it up properly.

Considering that it was Carver who wrote the episode and was the showrunner, I'm not sure why you are pinning this on Dabb and Singer. As for the "mature" thing, I think that was the writers trying to blow smoke up the viewers' asses after they realized how crappy their storyline was and how little sense it made, so they tried to make it look like they had meant something else... But considering that Sam abandoning his responsibility to Kevin was in no way the mature thing to do, the "mature" explanation makes absolutely no sense on their part in my opinion anyway. In my opinion, Carver wanted his angst and soap opera "romance" and so he threw Sam's characterization under the bus to get it. In my opinion, "mature" had nothing to do with it.

Quote

That`s why the speech in the church in the Season 8 Finale bugged me so much. It was entirely about how Dean`s wrong response triggered Sam feeling bad over his actions now. Not that Sam considered anything a mistake in and of itself. Only bad Dean made him feel that way. 

In your opinion. In my opinion, Sam getting a rundown of his sins (and other's sins he was apparently being called out for now) that he thought Dean had forgiven him for - and hadn't asked for - and then overhearing Dean questioning his reliability while instead maybe trusting the angel who screws up as much as he (Sam) does might've had something to do with it. I agree there was a little bit of transference there, too, but Sam isn't exactly the only one of the two of them to do this. In season 9, somehow it becomes mean Sam's fault for not forgiving Dean immediately that Dean feels badly... not that Dean made a huge mistake in lying to Sam all that time. Dean's explanation was "I didn't have a choice." Dean wouldn't even admit that it was the wrong thing to do. And there was no apology from Dean either. Not much different from Sam not apologizing in season 8... except that somehow Sam still ended up the bad guy in season 9 also.

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

If Sam had wanted to keep Dean the hell away from him, all he had to do was walk out the door.  No restraining order or security guards needed--it's not like Dean was going to hunt him down.  He could have quit hunting and gone back to school/settled down with some nice girl (or Amelia) or found someone else to hunt with if he wanted to keep hunting (they certainly had enough spare hunters to work with in season 12).  He could have told Dean (either nicely or angrily) that he didn't want him messing up his life anymore (as he perceived it) and so buh-bye.  But *he chose* to stay.  He chose to punish Dean by making him feel guilty, jump through hoops to prove himself over and over, and kept the threat of him leaving dangling over Dean's head at all times.  So in terms of no patience with a Winchester and his bull crap, Dean isn't the one I'm angry with. 

Not that @Wayward Son was saying that Sam should have or did want Dean to stay away, but that that's what he/she would have done, but when did this happen? I think the poster was talking about season 9. "After the possession drama" - unless that was referring to "Southern Comfort." In season 9, I don't remember Sam ever threatening to leave. And if Dean felt really guilty about what he did to Sam, I didn't see it. Now Kevin Dean felt guilty about, but Sam not so much. He even implied as much by saying that he'd do the same thing again and rather than apologize, say "ehn, you'd do the same thing." And Dean, in my opinion, even sometimes showed that he resented Sam for not forgiving him right away through his actions and attitude. And there was no jumping through hoops in season 9 either. I saw Dean mostly behave like he thought he was in the right and their problems were mainly being because Sam wouldn't forgive him right away.

I can't comment to season 8, because I hate early season 8 with a passion, and since I refuse to watch it - and Sam's character assassination in it - again, you are probably right about your assessment if that ("Southern Comfort") is the possession drama in question. (From what I remember of that episode, imo, it was horrendous and stupid and the case details made little sense). Adam Glass is generally not a Sam-friendly writer.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Seems to me only Rogue Reapers and the backdoor to Hell came about after 8.1.  But Sam 's ability to use his brain, his logic, reason,and even intuition,  existed before 8.1. Why did that all go missing? Did he just check out? I think he must have.

As @CluelessDrifter above says - and in my opinion, I agree - Carver seemed to want to erase what Gamble had done with the show*... but in the process, and to make his plot "work," I think he pretty much just turned Sam into an inconsiderate jerk who'd lost a bunch of brain cells after freaking out. I'll not forgive Carver for turning Sam into someone who would just abandon someone who was his responsibility and then not seem to feel guilt about  it.

* Or change details to suit his needs since apparently according to "Southern Comfort" and the finale, Sam chose to be and/or stay soulless.

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

Not that @Wayward Son was saying that Sam should have or did want Dean to stay away, but that that's what he/she would have done, but when did this happen? I think the poster was talking about season 9. "After the possession drama" - unless that was referring to "Southern Comfort." In season 9, I don't remember Sam ever threatening to leave. And if Dean felt really guilty about what he did to Sam, I didn't see it. Now Kevin Dean felt guilty about, but Sam not so much. He even implied as much by saying that he'd do the same thing again and rather than apologize, say "ehn, you'd do the same thing." And Dean, in my opinion, even sometimes showed that he resented Sam for not forgiving him right away through his actions and attitude. And there was no jumping through hoops in season 9 either. I saw Dean mostly behave like he thought he was in the right and their problems were mainly being because Sam wouldn't forgive him right away.

Yes, I was referring to the non con Gadreel possession when I referred to "possession drama" and I was saying that I would have left if Dean had done that to me not that I think Sam wanted to. 

 

Sorry to  anyone I confused and thanks for clarifying for me @AwesomO4000

Edited September 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Not that @Wayward Son was saying that Sam should have or did want Dean to stay away, but that that's what he/she would have done, but when did this happen? I think the poster was talking about season 9. "After the possession drama" - unless that was referring to "Southern Comfort." In season 9, I don't remember Sam ever threatening to leave. And if Dean felt really guilty about what he did to Sam, I didn't see it. Now Kevin Dean felt guilty about, but Sam not so much. He even implied as much by saying that he'd do the same thing again and rather than apologize, say "ehn, you'd do the same thing." And Dean, in my opinion, even sometimes showed that he resented Sam for not forgiving him right away through his actions and attitude. And there was no jumping through hoops in season 9 either. I saw Dean mostly behave like he thought he was in the right and their problems were mainly being because Sam wouldn't forgive him right away.

Yes, I was assuming @Wayward Son was talking about the Gadreel fiasco.  And maybe Sam didn't threaten to leave at that point (though he certainly has many, many times before and after--even if it wasn't deliberately meant as a threat); but I think outright "disowning" Dean as a brother is much, much worse.  And that's what I consider making him "jump through hoops"--insisting that the only way he would continue to work with Dean would be if Dean agreed to his conditions--specifically, that they not be brothers any more.  You don't think that's a threat?  See, that was the point that *I* wanted *Dean* to walk out, just say "screw it, I'm tired of having to apologize over and over for just being myself. "  Because TBH that's the one part of *any* SPN character they've kept consistent over the past 12 years--that Dean *will not* allow Sam to die if he has any way at all to stop it.  And I'm constantly surprised that people (much less Sam, of all people) seem to be surprised by that, or expect him to do anything different.  They can complain that he's never grown past that by now, but they can't really complain about him remaining in character.  

So I never saw Dean resenting or being angry with Sam, much less blaming him for "not forgiving him right away."   (IMO, that's more Sam's MO--but that's a whole other post.) I saw him feeling guilty (which *is* his MO--feeling guilty for everything, even if he doesn't say it out loud--which is why Osiris homed in on him).  In this case, I think his feelings of guilt  led directly to his taking off in Road Trip and indirectly to his taking on the MoC.  And no, it wasn't just about Kevin--he told Gadreel a number of times that he was unhappy lying to Sam and and the only reason he kept going was because Gadreel threatened Sam's life, both indirectly and, later, directly.  He seemed to be feeling pretty guilty to me.

But IA he wasn't apologetic, which would have been OOC (and a lie), but more defiant, saying, "yes, I know I was wrong, but I'd do it again, and so would you." And we know that Sam was lying when he said "no I wouldn't," so (again) I'm constantly surprised by how many people got angry at his later acknowledgement that, yes, he did lie.  I'm pretty sure *everyone* knew that he would never let Dean die any more than Dean would let him.  That's what made season 8 Sam be so OOC.  

And it's what also keeps both boys alive and working together.  

ETA:  Just to be absolutely clear:  NOWHERE am I saying that Dean was right in allowing Gadreel in, or that Sam has no right to be angry about it.  I'm not whitewashing any action, and I don't think the writers are either--just that their actions are consistent with their characters.  And what I've seen is that Dean does whatever he thinks is necessary without apology and accepts Sam's anger without resentment, and Sam tends to be more resentful and IMO passive-aggressive and less about taking direct action, like actually leaving when he feels Dean has done something unforgivable.  So I get annoyed with both of them, but I also understand them both--because (whether for show reasons or just the way the characters are written) neither one is ever going to get angry enough to leave permanently.  Both of them wind up forgiving (if not forgetting), or there would be no show.  

Edited September 24, 2017 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Yes, I was assuming @Wayward Son was talking about the Gadreel fiasco.  And maybe Sam didn't threaten to leave at that point (though he certainly has many, many times before and after--even if it wasn't deliberately meant as a threat); but I think outright "disowning" Dean as a brother is much, much worse.  And that's what I consider making him "jump through hoops"--insisting that the only way he would continue to work with Dean would be if Dean agreed to his conditions--specifically, that they not be brothers any more.  You don't think that's a threat?  See, that was the point that *I* wanted *Dean* to walk out, just say "screw it, I'm tired of having to apologize over and over for just being myself. "  Because TBH that's the one part of *any* SPN character they've kept consistent over the past 12 years--that Dean *will not* allow Sam to die if he has any way at all to stop it.  And I'm constantly surprised that people (much less Sam, of all people) seem to be surprised by that, or expect him to do anything different.  They can complain that he's never grown past that by now, but they can't really complain about him remaining in character.  

So I never saw Dean resenting or being angry with Sam, much less blaming him for "not forgiving him right away."   (IMO, that's more Sam's MO--but that's a whole other post.) I saw him feeling guilty (which *is* his MO--feeling guilty for everything, even if he doesn't say it out loud--which is why Osiris homed in on him).  In this case, I think his feelings of guilt  led directly to his taking off in Road Trip and indirectly to his taking on the MoC.  And no, it wasn't just about Kevin--he told Gadreel a number of times that he was unhappy lying to Sam and and the only reason he kept going was because Gadreel threatened Sam's life, both indirectly and, later, directly.  He seemed to be feeling pretty guilty to me.

But IA he wasn't apologetic, which would have been OOC (and a lie), but more defiant, saying, "yes, I know I was wrong, but I'd do it again, and so would you." And we know that Sam was lying when he said "no I wouldn't," so (again) I'm constantly surprised by how many people got angry at his later acknowledgement that, yes, he did lie.  I'm pretty sure *everyone* knew that he would never let Dean die any more than Dean would let him.  That's what made season 8 Sam be so OOC.  

And it's what also keeps both boys alive and working together.  

ETA:  Just to be absolutely clear:  NOWHERE am I saying that Dean was right in allowing Gadreel in, or that Sam has no right to be angry about it.  I'm not whitewashing any action, and I don't think the writers are either--just that their actions are consistent with their characters.  And what I've seen is that Dean does whatever he thinks is necessary without apology and accepts Sam's anger without resentment, and Sam tends to be more resentful and IMO passive-aggressive and less about taking direct action, like actually leaving when he feels Dean has done something unforgivable.  So I get annoyed with both of them, but I also understand them both--because (whether for show reasons or just the way the characters are written) neither one is ever going to get angry enough to leave permanently.  Both of them wind up forgiving (if not forgetting), or there would be no show.  

I agree 100%.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Considering that it was Carver who wrote the episode and was the showrunner, I'm not sure why you are pinning this on Dabb and Singer. 

Sorry, I meant to write Carver instead of Dabb - guess it was a Freudian typo since Dabb is kind of the "face of evil" for the show right now -  there though I will pin it equally on Singer because he was just as much with the "oh so mature" bullshit at that Comic Con. And of course he was the one who, this Comic Con, pinched Jensen`s ear like Dean was a stupid child for letting Mary go. What`s good for the goose and all seems to not be Singer`s thing, more like "Dean is stupid/mean in either case".