Aeryn13 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 Quote Dean is called "perfect" and a "man without sin." You can't get better than that. IMO the guy who is stronger than that would be better. Quote In the show verse, ep 9,01 doesn't paint a very flattering picture of how Sam views his brother. It was more in tune with the show overall, though, than the fanfic version. 2 Link to comment
Katy M August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: IMO the guy who is stronger than that would be better. Why do I have the feeling that if they had called Dean strong and Sam sinless, that suddenly sinless would be the better trait? 12 Link to comment
ILoveReading August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Katy M said: Why do I have the feeling that if they had called Dean strong and Sam sinless, that suddenly sinless would be the better trait? Not for me. I'd prefer stronger to sinless. 2 Link to comment
SueB August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 @Myrelle can you put those last 2 paragraphs under a spoiler tag? 1 Link to comment
Myrelle August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Not for me. I'd prefer stronger to sinless. Ditto. Especially because "sinless" is a laughable descriptor on this show. But "as strong as" his brother and capable of "blazing his own trail" and "being his own man"? Yeah, I'd take that for my fave any day of the week over the hyperbolic "without sin" and/or "perfect brother". Any day. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 10 minutes ago, Katy M said: Why do I have the feeling that if they had called Dean strong and Sam sinless, that suddenly sinless would be the better trait? Probably an UO but I really thought that whole song made no sense. LOL Like even through the first 5 seasons, which is what Marie was writing about, Dean was most definitely not perfect and sinless so I legit don't know what Robbie/Marie was trying to say. I mean if that was how fanfiction!Sam saw fanfiction!Dean was Marie mocking fanfiction!Dean girls who think Dean is perfect which seems like the wrong read on Dean fans who generally acknowledge he is not perfect nor sinless? Was fanfiction!Sam on drugs or delusional? Was Marie? Was Marie writing it from a Wincest POV that fanfiction!Sam was so in love with fanfiction!Dean that he saw him as perfect. And fanfiction!Dean saw Sam as stronger because of the whole vessel thing? Was fanfiction!Sam making a mockery of fanfiction!Sam girls who think that's how fanfiction!Dean girls see Dean. Oh gods. Is this FanFictionCeption (not fan fiction)? I've confused myself. LOL 6 Link to comment
Myrelle August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 8 minutes ago, SueB said: @Myrelle can you put those last 2 paragraphs under a spoiler tag? Done and thanks. Link to comment
shang yiet August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 (edited) God forbid anyone on the show praise Sam. If Death had said that to Dean, nobody would complain or think the compliment was too much.And how would the writers know being called sinless and perfect is actually an insult? Edited August 2, 2017 by shang yiet 8 Link to comment
Wayward Son August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, shang yiet said: God forbid anyone on the show praise Sam. If Death had said that to Dean, nobody would complain or think the compliment was too much.And how would the writers know being called sinless and perfect is actually an insult? I wish I could like this post more than once! 5 Link to comment
catrox14 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 1 minute ago, shang yiet said: God forbid anyone on the show praise Sam. If Death had said that to Dean, nobody would complain or think the compliment was too much. NOPE, not true. I've said before that biggest complaint/tipoff I had with 9.01 is that Death would never be complimentary to humanity and certainly not the Winchesters, either one. I can't think of one time wherein Death ever said anything nice to Dean, who he supposedly likes and he barely tolerates. He's called them annoying protozoa, thinks they are insignificant and an affront to the universe and cause chaos. He would never consider it an honor to reap either Winchester and if he said it to Dean I would throw the bullshit flag. 7 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Except that wasn't the reason they gave for why Dean wanted to say yes, IMO. That was what a couple characters THOUGHT was Dean's reason for saying yes. Doesn't mean they were right, though. IMO, Dean wasn't giving up as much as changing tactics--Dean decided to start playing the game using the other team's playbook, all by himself, because he was tired of having no play at all. The problem wasn't that Dean wanted to say yes, but that the other team's play sucked ass and wasn't really any different than having no play at all. And, it being a team sport and all, you really do need the team in on the play if you want it to be successful. The only reason the play worked for Sam was because they reworked the play a bit--it still sucked ass though, just ever so slightly less than it did before--and taught the play to the whole team. I disagree that Dean wasn't giving up. There were the issues from season 4 with Sam that were still festering and re-opened when Sam relapsed; seeing what Zachariah wanted him to think would happen if Dean didn't agree to be Michael's vessel; feeling responsible for all the lives lost since the first seal was broken; feeling responsible for Ellen and Jo's deaths; and seeing Sam's Heaven memories as well as Zachariah tarnishing Dean's memories of his mother - he did give up. But giving up doesn't have to be for forever. It can be a momentary lapse, and I have to say that one of the moments I've been most proud of Dean was when he turned the tables on Zachariah and didn't ultimately say 'yes' even though he could have. That was a huge hero moment for him, because while he may have wanted to give up, he didn't. Overcoming everything that he had going on in his head was Sam overcoming Lucifer levels of strong. I think a lot of this show is about the strength of Sam and Dean's inner demons and them overcoming those as much as 'real' ones, and all it took was a moment for Dean to turn it around, just like Sam did with Lucifer. And while I personally don't have a problem with Sam saying 'yes' to Lucifer and taking a swan dive into the cage, I can see how some fans might be annoyed by Adam suddenly coming in and taking Dean's role as Michael's vessel, or that some fans might be annoyed that Sam's plan to being Lucifer's vessel was okayed by TFW, because maybe it indicates that Dean wasn't strong enough to do the same thing Sam did. I also think some people might be annoyed, because they wanted to see Jensen play Michael, and that's understandable too, but as far as story lines go, I'm quite happy that Dean turned Michael down and think that him doing that is what ultimately stopped the Apocalypse, because he was where he needed to be as himself when he needed to be there. Does he get credit for that in the show? Not really, but he does with me, because it was a choice only he could make, and it's really not one he was planning to make until the last second, the same as Sam not being able to take control of Lucifer until the last second, most likely because something clicked with him seeing his brothers and that gave him the will to do it. 3 Link to comment
companionenvy August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 3 hours ago, ILoveReading said: Even in Sam's mind, Dean's just a half wit who didn't do Jack, This is an example of the kind of discourse I find unhelpful. Yes, Sam had the bigger role in saving the world in Swan Song. Sam knows this. Dean knows this. Of course, they both also know - and frequently alluded to the fact throughout S5 -- that Sam was the one who broke the world. In addition, Dean played a number of crucial roles leading up to Swan Song, the most important of which was probably getting Death's ring. In any case, I don't understand where we get to "Sam thinks Dean is a half wit who didn't do Jack." Even if we agree that Sam's coma-scape in the Season 9 premiere shows him to be outrageously arrogant, that's a far cry from "Dean is a half wit who didn't do Jack." 3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Except that wasn't the reason they gave for why Dean wanted to say yes, IMO. That was what a couple characters THOUGHT was Dean's reason for saying yes. Okay, but if multiple main characters state something about a third party and the third party never contradicts it, I'd say their opinion has been validated. If the show had actually wanted us to believe that Dean had a plan all along, they would have had him say so. As an analogy, let's say a female character revealed that a particular male character was the father of her baby. She says this in front of the male character in question, who does not contradict her, and then is seen acting as a father to the child. The issue is never brought up again. It wouldn't make any sense to argue that it was possible that the female character was lying or mistaken in her child's paternity - not because such a scenario would have been utterly impossible, but because that's just not how fictional worlds work. 1 hour ago, Katy M said: Why do I have the feeling that if they had called Dean strong and Sam sinless, that suddenly sinless would be the better trait? This. The frustrating thing about all of this is that God has literally come down and chastised Sam for screwing up the world, and somehow, that still isn't as important as the fact that, say, Sam got the MOC for a hot minute before Dean saved the day. But it doesn't count because Chuck is an ass, or something. There's always a reason why anything nice that Sam says about Dean doesn't count, and anything negative that he says is 100% reflective of his true and consistent feelings about his brother. Why Dean agreeing with Sam is weakness and a sign that Sam expects everyone to follow him, but Sam apologizing to Dean or acknowledging that he was right either isn't believable, or doesn't use quite the correct combination of magic words. Why every time Sam says something self-effacing, it rings hollow, and every time he says something arrogant -- even if that occurs under the influence of a supernatural agent or while he's at death's door -- is proof positive that he expects Dean and everyone else to pay tribute to his brilliance. Why Bobby telling Dean that he's his favorite shouldn't at all be taken as a knock on Sam, but Bobby saying "Sam's the better hunter, at least these days" when Sam is the better hunter solely because he HAS NO SOUL is a knock on Dean, and the "boo-hoo princess" scene makes Bobby an irredeemable Dean-hater. Why Dean having been the "Righteous Man" to Sam's "Chosen one of Satan" doesn't matter since Dean didn't ultimately assume that role, but Sam getting the Trials arc is the show pimping Sam even though he failed to complete the trials at Dean's request (talk about weakness). By the way, in the song -- which as others have mentioned, involves deliberately over the top and distorted fanfic versions of the characters -- Dean is wishing he could be as strong as Sam in standing up to John (since Sam "blazed his own trail and became his own man"). He isn't saying that Sam is the better hunter, or the emotionally stronger hunter more generally. If it is absurd to think that Dean is "without sin" after watching the first 5 seasons, it is equally absurd to say that Sam doesn't show quite a lot of "weakness" along the way. 10 Link to comment
Aeryn13 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 (edited) Quote I can't think of one time wherein Death ever said anything nice to Dean, who he supposedly likes and he barely tolerates. He's called them annoying protozoa, thinks they are insignificant and an affront to the universe and cause chaos. He would never consider it an honor to reap either Winchester and if he said it to Dean I would throw the bullshit flag. Agreed. This scene ruined Death. And then they brought him back and really ruined him. Urgh. As for reactions towards Dean being praised like that, well, I don`t think we`re in much of a risk of ever finding out on the show. But I do remember in Season 4, the episode that introduced "the righteous man who begins it will end it". The sky was literally falling over Dean being important. And you can`t just be Dean`s brother and support system, that is atrocious writing etc. Uh uh. Quote In any case, I don't understand where we get to "Sam thinks Dean is a half wit who didn't do Jack." Even if we agree that Sam's coma-scape in the Season 9 premiere shows him to be outrageously arrogant, that's a far cry from "Dean is a half wit who didn't do Jack." Wasn`t this the literal dialogue of Head!Bobby to Dean in Sam`s head? Edited August 2, 2017 by Aeryn13 2 Link to comment
catrox14 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: Wasn`t this the literal dialogue of Head!Bobby to Dean in Sam`s head? It literally was . When Coma!Bobby and Coma!Dean were arguing about whether coma!Sam should die or not. Quote SAM Okay, I don't want to die. I asked if maybe I was supposed to – DEAN Shut it, Sam. [to BOBBY] You – go. Oh, and, uh, before you throw me under the bus, you're welcome for the hell rescue. BOBBY Hey, first of all, you didn't rescue jack, half-wit. Sam did. Second of all, Sam, you're in a coma. Now, suck as that may, sometimes that's just the way things go. So the question in my mind is did coma!Sam think that is what coma!Bobby would say about coma!Dean? Or is it what coma!Sam thinks about coma!Dean? Either way the upshot is that it existed in Sam's coma brain. So make of it what you will. 4 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: Wasn`t this the literal dialogue of Head!Bobby to Dean in Sam`s head? 2 minutes ago, catrox14 said: So the question in my mind is did coma!Sam think that is what coma!Bobby would say about coma!Dean? Or is it what coma!Sam thinks about coma!Dean? Bobby to Dean a few lines later: "Excuse me. Are you dead? Because I am, and maybe I'm here because I'm the part of Sam that actually knows what the hell he's talking about." ETA: It's open to interpretation, but that's what's said. Edited August 2, 2017 by CluelessDrifter 1 Link to comment
catrox14 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 Just now, CluelessDrifter said: Bobby to Dean a few lines later: Excuse me. Are you dead? Because I am, and maybe I'm here because I'm the part of Sam that actually knows what the hell he's talking about. Are you saying this is coma!Bobby saying that coma!Sam was right and that was really what Coma!Sam thought about everything? Sorry I'm not picking just trying to understand what you're getting at here. Link to comment
ILoveReading August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 13 minutes ago, companionenvy said: Even if we agree that Sam's coma-scape in the Season 9 premiere shows him to be outrageously arrogant, that's a far cry from "Dean is a half wit who didn't do Jack." Sam actually said this. Quote DEAN Shut it, Sam. [to BOBBY] You – go. Oh, and, uh, before you throw me under the bus, you're welcome for the hell rescue. BOBBY Hey, first of all, you didn't rescue jack, half-wit. Sam did. Second of all, Sam, you're in a coma. Now, suck as that may, sometimes that's just the way things go. Sam even gave himself full credit for rescuing Bobby from hell. IMO, we are in Sam's head to even though it looks like Bobby, its really Sam's thoughts. Sam even confirmed that earlier when he said Dean represented his will to live and Bobby his will to die. Yes, Sam played a bigger part but I don't see why its so wrong to want to hear someone acknowledge that without Dean the world would have burned. No one, not even same ever acknowledges the part Dean played. It's too easy to dismiss. Link to comment
Aeryn13 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 I think without some major retconning of 5.22 any acknowledgment would feel hollow and condescending, though. They can`t tell me now, years later, that Dean was important when that wasn`t in the episode. If they flash back to the episode, they`re already screwed because it shows he wasn`t important. They`d have to make up some supernatural explanation now that would fit with the episode as it aired but still made Dean actually important to the outcome. That`s not gonna happen. I have to thank the heavens for small mercies that in the Season 11 mid-Season Opener, Lucifer only made a small reference to Sam overpowering with his sheer will and not waxing poetically about it in multiple lines of dialogue. If there ever was a time to retcon Dean into it, that would have been it, though. Now, it couldn`t come up organically anymore. Link to comment
CluelessDrifter August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 Just now, catrox14 said: Are you saying this is coma!Bobby saying that coma!Sam was right and that was really what Coma!Sam thought about everything? Sorry I'm not picking just trying to understand what you're getting at here. No, you said you weren't sure about whether it was what Sam thought Bobby would say or if it was what Sam really thought. I just wanted to put it here to give you some food for thought and a possible explanation depending on how you see it. Link to comment
catrox14 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 18 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said: No, you said you weren't sure about whether it was what Sam thought Bobby would say or if it was what Sam really thought. I just wanted to put it here to give you some food for thought and a possible explanation depending on how you see it. Gotcha! Thanks! Link to comment
SueB August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 I interpret the Coma!Bobby and Coma!Dean exchange to be classic Bobby/Dean banter. And I don't take it as Sam thinks Dean is helpless. As for Swan Song, I think Dean was vital to the outcome. I think they have always said both boys saved the world from the Apocolypse. Not "Sam saved the world". And I certainly don't expect the show to cater to fan interpretation that somehow it was all Sam and Dean was irrelevant. At least 3 times in S12 we had either Sam or Dean say "we save the world". It's their justification for continuing to be hunters rather than walk away. So, that's the shows interpretation and I don't see them retconning it to a Sam-only save in S5 or a Dean-only save in S7 or .... fill in the blank on individual interpretation of who did what to whom for a particular world-wide threat. Both boys have saved the world. Multiple times. That's what the show is literally saying as of S12. 6 Link to comment
catrox14 August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 (edited) IMO Sam's comabrain was manifesting heightened aspects both good and bad of Dean, Bobby and Death and those came from memories or impressions Sam has of all 3 of them in his brain. MO Bobby would never suggest that Sam should give up and just go with Death simply because Bobby was already dead and would know best. That's not sage advice from Bobby. I don't see Death ever being "honored" to reap a Winchester. I don't know if Dean would beat up Sam to get him to not give into dying. I think he would probably shake him about the shoulders probably a wake up slap in the facein a "Goddammit, Sam WAKE UP AND FIGHT' way. The question I have is what was Carver trying to communicate about all the three of them and Death with those manifestations. Edited August 2, 2017 by catrox14 2 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: IMO, Sam took control by using the old magician's tricks of misdirection and distraction and feeding into the Devil's own hubris. I love this thought! Especially considering Sam was into magic when he was younger, right? 3 Link to comment
companionenvy August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 1 hour ago, ILoveReading said: Quote DEAN Shut it, Sam. [to BOBBY] You – go. Oh, and, uh, before you throw me under the bus, you're welcome for the hell rescue. BOBBY Hey, first of all, you didn't rescue jack, half-wit. Sam did. Second of all, Sam, you're in a coma. Now, suck as that may, sometimes that's just the way things go. Sam even gave himself full credit for rescuing Bobby from hell. IMO, we are in Sam's head to even though it looks like Bobby, its really Sam's thoughts. Sam even confirmed that earlier when he said Dean represented his will to live and Bobby his will to die. Yes, Sam played a bigger part but I don't see why its so wrong to want to hear someone acknowledge that without Dean the world would have burned. No one, not even same ever acknowledges the part Dean played. It's too easy to dismiss. I'm now extremely confused. Bobby is speaking here about Sam rescuing Bobby from hell during the trials in Season 7. He is not speaking about Swan Song. And as Sam did save Bobby from hell in season 7, I'm really not seeing how that's a wildly controversial statement. Regardless of whether this is Sam's impression of Dean, Sam's impression of Bobby's impression of Dean, or something else, thinking that Bobby calling Dean "half-wit" during an argument means that either he or Sam actually believe that Dean is a half wit, any more than Dean calling Sam "bitch" means he actually thinks he is a variety of female mammal. It certainly doesn't have anything to say about the relative importance of Dean's role in stopping the apocalypse, which is not at issue in this exchange. At all. 6 Link to comment
Reganne August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 21 minutes ago, companionenvy said: I'm now extremely confused. Bobby is speaking here about Sam rescuing Bobby from hell during the trials in Season 7. He is not speaking about Swan Song. And as Sam did save Bobby from hell in season 7, I'm really not seeing how that's a wildly controversial statement. Regardless of whether this is Sam's impression of Dean, Sam's impression of Bobby's impression of Dean, or something else, thinking that Bobby calling Dean "half-wit" during an argument means that either he or Sam actually believe that Dean is a half wit, any more than Dean calling Sam "bitch" means he actually thinks he is a variety of female mammal. It certainly doesn't have anything to say about the relative importance of Dean's role in stopping the apocalypse, which is not at issue in this exchange. At all. My thoughts exactly. They aren't even talking about the events in Swan Song during the Bobby/Dean exchange in Sam's head. They're only talking about when Bobby was rescued from hell and I'm sorry, but it was Sam that rescued him. Though Dean did kill Benny to save Sam and Bobby in purgatory. 5 Link to comment
Wayward Son August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, DeeDee79 said: I really love this post because it's how I feel about the characters. Like you stated I absolutely love Dean but I enjoy Sam and it's possible to like both characters. I don't get pointing out the flaws of one character while pretending that the other is without flaw or acting as if one character is the source of all misery for the other. The writing for Dean may frustrate me at times but as @MysteryGuest said I don't understand viewers that watch when they hate one of the main characters; I wouldn't be able to watch if I did. 23 hours ago, MysteryGuest said: This actually seems like a fairly new development, IMO. We've certainly always had these discussions before about who did what to whom, which brother we like best, etc., but I don't remember there being so much open dislike for either brother. I admit to being a Dean fan, but I have come to Sam's defense many times throughout these discussions. I absolutely think it's possible to have a favorite, but to still see things from multiple perspectives. And just because Dean is my favorite, that doesn't mean I dislike Sam. To each his own, I guess. I'm not sure I'd want to watch if I actually disliked one of the brothers. That wouldn't be much fun for me, personally. IMO this thread by its very nature often discusses pretty hot button topic for members of the fandom such as Sam not looking for Dean, Dean's involvement in the non-con possession of Sam, Sam's decision to side with Ruby and so on. They're the type of issues one may feel strongly about and it leads to fans coming across as more biased / hateful towards a character than they actually are. I figured I'll share some meta / self-analysis on why I take the position I have during bitch vs jerk discussions. I'm going to start by analyzing what I personally consider to be the worst actions of Dean, Sam and Castiel. I'm not going to include Crowley in this because my standards for acceptable behaviour differ depending on the type of character the show is portraying someone as. For instance how I expect a protagonist who is an outright villain such as Hannibal Lecter to behave is very different to how I'd expect characters deemed 'heroes' like Sam and Dean to behave. So since Crowley was more of a bad guy who did good things when it suited he doesn't have the same criteria. The three acts I'd personally consider the worst are: 1. Sam - His decision to side with Ruby and go against Dean. 2. Castiel - His decision to break Sam's wall in order to distract them at the end of season six. 3. Dean - His decision to collaborate with Ezekiel in the task of tricking Sam into allowing possession. The worst sins of Castiel and Dean in particular I consider to be absolutely vile. It doesn't matter to me who the character involved was, they could be my absolute favorite or a character I loathe with a fiery passion, but violations like that are always going to result in a disgusted reaction from me. It isn't a case of "Oh well I love Cas, so what he did is OK and I'll defend it, but I hate Dean so I'm going to make sure to condemn it". When asked I am going to list both acts as the worst thing that particular character ever did. So a fair question from other users may be "Well if you're so disgusted by both how come you continue to love one character (Cas), while you've displayed a lowered opinion of the other (Dean)?" The answer to this lies in the show / character's handling of the aftermath. I actually don't mind when a show has its hero do something that I'd consider morally wrong. I understand that from a show runner's perspective such things add drama and tension, and it would get boring to write a character who is perfectly perfect in every way. However, if they are going to go through with a plot like that then the show needs to handle it with proper care, if they want my love of a character to go undamaged. The show managed to do this with Sam and Castiel, but they failed to do it with Dean. The mistakes of Castiel and Sam had several common factors that helped to lessen the sting of their reprehensible behaviour. 1. The shows narrative clearly portrays the actions of Castiel and Sam as incorrect. Yes, they try to balance things out by allowing us to understand their primary motives i.e. Castiel in his hubris underestimated the damage he had wrought and thought he could fix it when everything was said and done. That he was acting out of desperation as he feared Raphael would restart the apocalypse and undo everything they'd made sacrifices for if he went unchecked. While Sam under the influence of the demon blood and Ruby thought he was the only one who could stop Lilith and prevent the end of the world. The show maintains a certain level of sympathy for the pair of them. However, in spite of this, the actions of both are portrayed as utterly wrong. The show leaves no doubts in the viewers mind Castiel and Sam were wrong to do what they did and set up a redemptive arc for both. How successfully they accomplished this is dependent on the viewer. For instance I know some viewers have never forgiven Cas for breaking Sam's wall, or forgiven Sam for the things he did and said during the latter half of season four. Regardless, their actions were presented as wrong and the show was aware of it as such. 2. More importantly, the characters of Sam and Castiel were able to acknowledge what they did was wrong. When Castiel returned during The Born Again Identity he does not try to claim his actions were righteous. He does not try to justify the breaking of Sam's wall by speaking of how he needed to stop Raphael and would take similar action in future if it made strategic sense. Instead he owns up to his mistake and apologizes to Sam admitting he should never have done it and wanted to do something to make up for it. Likewise, Sam behaves in a repentant manner throughout Sympathy for the Devil. He owns up to Bobby, he speaks of how a mere apology and an acknowledgement he screwed up isn't enough, he asks Dean what he can do to make it up to him. He does not offer excuses or worse state he would side with Ruby all over again. 3. Not only is the acknowledgement they did something wrong there, but they actually tried to do something about it. When it came down to it Sam was willing to sacrifice his life and jump in the cage to make up for being the one to release Lucifer during Swan Song. While Castiel was willing to take on Sam's mental damage at the end of The Born Again Identity. In addition to this, Castiel was willing to stay in purgatory and make penance. He was willing to isolate himself from others. Overall, the show handled the arcs of both characters in a way where we were allowed to see the characters grow. They made their mistake, they owned up to their mistake and tried to do something about it. They proved they had learnt something from the experience and wouldn't repeat such a thing. Although, I do think Sam's redemptative arc was superior to Cas', but at least Cas got one albeit a poorly written one. Therefore, while I still disapprove of the act I was able to move on from it and not let it affect my current view of the character as they are different people now to the people they were then. On the other hand, absolutely none of this criteria was met with Dean, and therefore my opinion of him was dramatically lowered as he would be willing to do the same again and hasn't learnt anything from it. Why do I feel this way? Let's take a look at his arc. 1. The show in no way condemns the actions of Dean in the way they condemned Castiel and Sam's. When Sam calls Dean out on what he did the writers made sure to add additional attacks on Dean's character and end the scene with a focus on his devastated face. These personal attacks and the Dean focus intended to ensure sympathy remained with the man who was nobly trying to save his brothers life. In addition to this, the writers make it very clear who they consider to be the hero of the piece when they conclude the in character conflict with Sam admitting "he lied about not being willing to do the same and thus invalidating Sam's legitimate complaints. As a viewer it is rather stomach turning to watch the show glorify an act I consider to be a gross violation at every level. It makes it far harder to move on from the shows decision to go there with Dean. 2. In addition to the show, Dean himself was never able to admit what he did was wrong. When he was confronted by Sam, at the end of The Purge, he shows absolutely no remorse for the mental and physical trauma he inflicted on Sam. He proudly proclaims that he would do the same thing all over again, as long as it got him what he wanted i.e. an alive Sam. He doesn't even care that it resulted in the death of Kevin, someone he was supposed to consider a friend, as long as he and Sam are back fighting the good fight again. Obviously Dean makes no attempts to show us how he has changed as he feels he did nothing wrong. He is still the guy who is willing to inflict trauma on his brother, as long as the needs of Dean are met. He is still the same guy who perceives others around them as pawns to be scarified if it means Sam will be around to fight the good fight with him. Does this mean the events of season nine have permanently lowered my opinion of Dean's character? Absolutely. Does this mean I am going to discuss his actions in season nine in a harsh condemning manner? Certainly Does this mean I find it hard to buy the shows attempt to sell us the idea that Dean Winchester should be considered a hero? Definitely! Perhaps an anti-hero, but even that is stretching things for me. Does this mean I utterly hate Dean and want him written off of the show? No. Does this mean I am incapable of ever feeling sympathy for Dean and will always side with Castiel and Sam over him? Definitely not. There are numerous occasions throughout the show where I am able to feel sympathy for Dean. I felt sorry for Dean when we are introduced to him in the Pilot and he genuinely fears the fate of his missing father. Although I found his early season obedience to John rather irritating I can understand it was the result of his trauma after the striga incident portrayed in Something Wicked. In addition to this, I felt nothing but pity for Dean when we learnt of him breaking in hell. I did not harshly jump to the conclusion he was a monster, but rather maintained enough objectivity to realise he was still a victim in all of this. I mostly sided with Dean during his conflict with Sam at the end of season four (I did lose some sympathy when he decided to bring Sam going to Stanford into things). I understood his extreme anger towards Castiel at the end of season seven and did not judge him for harsh statements like "No body cares that you're broken". I understood Cas hurt Dean deeply and he was not yet ready to forgive him. I hated it when Sam lied to Dean about joining the BMoL and made the horrible "I'll work on him" comment to Mick. So to wrap up this long rant! Yes, there are acts of Dean's that I feel a high level of disdain towards. There are aspects of his personality I may also find disagreeable. However, that does not mean I hate the overall character with the passion my disapproving posts in this thread may suggest, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was the same for others. I hate actions Dean has undertaken, but at this point I don't hate Dean Winchester. Edited August 2, 2017 by Wayward Son 3 Link to comment
Katy M August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 28 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: The three acts I'd personally consider the worst are: 1. Sam - His decision to side with Ruby and go against Dean. I'm going to disagree. I think his worst act was the Book of the Damned thing. If, for no other reason, than 6, or however many, years down the road, he should have known better. But, more importantly, he was warned that there would be dire consequences. For the whole world. Yeah, angels warned him about the demon blood, but only after he was addicted. And, sure, any idiot should know better than to drink demon blood. I'm not at all defending that decision. I'm just saying, IMO, Book of the Damned was worse. And, then, he too, said he would do it again. 5 Link to comment
companionenvy August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 I tend to find Dean's actions in S9 pretty forgivable, even though I think he was clearly wrong to do what he did, and vastly compounded that wrong by not trying to tell Sam what he had done once Sam was somewhat more stable. I actually think that the worst thing that Dean has done is kick human Cas out of the bunker without telling him why or offering him, as far as we can see, any substantial help. This was absurdly OOC, as well. I think the worst thing Sam has done is take out a hit on Benny and give Dean the "me or him" ultimatum (Dean killing Amy was pretty bad too, but not as bad). Neither of those are the most destructive things Sam or Dean has done, by a long shot, but to me, they have the least justification. Neither was a case of a guy making a rotten choice out of delusion or total desperation, but an instance of total thoughtlessness (in Dean's case) and petty jealousy and manipulation (in Sam's). Still love them both :) 2 Link to comment
SueB August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Wayward Son said: Obviously Dean makes no attempts to show us how he has changed as he feels he did nothing wrong. He is still the guy who is willing to inflict trauma on his brother, as long as the needs of Dean are met. He is still the same guy who perceives others around them as pawns to be scarified if it means Sam will be around to fight the good fight with him. I thought the whole point of S11 was to have BOTH Sam and Dean get back to the "Saving People" part of the bumper sticker. As such, each was prepared to lose the other for the common good. Dean, although he had no real time to argue, stood by and held Sam as he took on the Mark. He HATED it, but he didn't try to stop it. Sam stood by and supported Dean as he went off to be "the bomb". Again, he HATED it, but he didn't try to stop it. The conversation that they had had while beer bottle bowling was an agreement on a new policy of "let the person choose" but they also seemed to agree that always didn't make sense -- so they went off to save Cas. There is definitely a "woulda, shoulda, coulda," potential for EACH case, and ultimately neither brother had to live long with the consequences of letting the other "die/be damaged". But without killing them again, I think they showed respect for the world over respect for each other. In S12, they were BOTH prepared to have one of them die to get out of jail. Both thought THEY would be the one to die before Mary attempted to override and Cas stopped the whole thing. Again, PLENTY of woulda/shoulda/coulda scenarios but this was a different Dean than the unapologetic one from the end of The Purge IMO. Back to The Purge versus now; I think S12 Dean would have LET Sam shut the gates of Hell**. But once it became personal, I'm still a little iffy on whether or not he'd have accepted 'Ezekiel's' help. IF he accepted Zeke's help, I think the lying would have stopped sooner and Zeke would have revealed his true nature more quickly. And now, SueB's woulda/shoulda/coulda.... If Sam dies, Dean won't last long without him. It's just not in him. Still. So, he might respect Sam's wishes, but how he lives his life afterwords would be (at THIS moment), I think different. He won't settle down. He'll keep hunting until he dies. And take huge risks until something gets him. We saw Dean essentially attempt suicide by Reaper in S11 rather than have Sam die in Red Meat. We saw him take a huge inhale of Amara's Darkness fog when Sam was dying (to no avail). I personally am convinced that Dean would have pulled some dirty trick to be the one to die in S12 rather than let Sam die. Unlike his position in S9, I think Dean has come to accept that a death for the sake of the world is an okay way for either brother to go. But he REALLY doesn't want to live in a world where Sam dies. At least he didn't until Mary came back. Now enter Mary... presuming she comes back eventually... THAT might be enough to get Dean to continue living. Regarding Sam, I think Sam knows Dean's limitations. Sam will sacrifice himself in a minute for others, but if Dean died, he'd carry on IMO better than Dean. Dean still has that whole parental-directive towards Sam. Sam would carry on in Dean's name IMO. He would protect Dean's legacy. I think Sam would have a longer view and try to pass on what he knows versus go out in a blaze of glory. He told Charlie he wouldn't hunt without Dean. And he might not. But he's more likely to turn to the Men of Letters materials and do something with that for others rather than just keep on hunting or turn completely away from the life. This is not a judgement of EITHER Sam or Dean. Both are brave and self-sacrificing. But I just don't know if Dean could last long if Sam died (again, Mary introduces a new wrinkle). Conversely, I think Sam would be gutted, but I think he could find purpose again. And I think Sam is smart enough to know, the burden of dying second (i.e. living with the other dead) would be a GIFT to Dean. That sounds really morbid, but that's sort of where I see them now. Bottom Line for the TL, DR: I think Dean has moved beyond The Purge and would have let Sam die to save the world in Sacrifice if he had to do it over again. Once the decision was made to NOT have him die in Sacrifice, I think he would have taken Zeke's help but have attempted (unsuccessfully) to reveal the lie much earlier. **For those relatively new to the board, I am personally convinced that the proactive "Shut the Gates of Hell" lever that the boys CHOOSE to pull was a fundamental error. They were attempting to change the natural order by using the demon tablet. It could be argued that there were more demons walking the earth since S1 and that the whole Apocalypse-prep (opening the Devils gate, etc...) was being corrected by this move to use the demon tablet, but they never used that explanation. They just said they wanted to put away those things that had killed their mother and brought all sorts of evil into the world. It's my theory that if they had just simply left us in a post-Apocalyptic status quo and provided a better protection solution for Kevin, then: - Abbadon would not have been resurrected to be the third trial, thus no need for the Mark of Cain. - Sam wouldn't have undertaken the trials, thus turning into a physical mess - The Angels wouldn't have fallen because they wouldn't have gone hunting Metatron. Kicking the hornets nest on Metatron set off that series of bad moves. - With Abbadon still buried in cement and no need to try and do SOMETHING (because Sam would never have been possessed by Gadreel), Dean/Crowley would never have teamed up. They wouldn't have kicked the hornets nest that was Cain. Again, the Mark of Cain would have remained quiescent on Cain's arm. - With no Mark of Cain Dean, no Demon Dean. With no Demon Dean, no need to remove the Mark via that spell, no release of the Darkness. - With no release of the Darkness, no Amara, no Chuck vs Amara showdown, no return of Mary. So... I believe an argument can be made that the proactive choice to attempt to close the Gates of Hell was the boys overstepping their role (by attempting to pull a big lever). All the negative consequences SINCE that time, came from that MUTUAL decision. BUT, God didn't hassle them about it -- Free Will and all -- so I don't think the show supports my personal theory. Edited August 3, 2017 by SueB 3 Link to comment
bearcatfan August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 On 8/1/2017 at 7:44 PM, MysteryGuest said: This actually seems like a fairly new development, IMO. We've certainly always had these discussions before about who did what to whom, which brother we like best, etc., but I don't remember there being so much open dislike for either brother. I admit to being a Dean fan, but I have come to Sam's defense many times throughout these discussions. I absolutely think it's possible to have a favorite, but to still see things from multiple perspectives. And just because Dean is my favorite, that doesn't mean I dislike Sam. To each his own, I guess. I'm not sure I'd want to watch if I actually disliked one of the brothers. That wouldn't be much fun for me, personally. This development is why I've rarely been on here anymore and haven't posted in months. I read some posts, my BP rises and I leave to keep my sanity. I have too much going on to allow a place that use to an escape and fun bring me back down. While it was always fairly easy to see each posters preference, there use to not be such blatant dislike towards either brother, and it is primarily aimed at Sam. It's why I didn't stay on the imdb boards. It's not quite that bad here but it's getting there IMO. I would also hate it if it was aimed towards Dean. My problem with Dean allowing Gadreel to possess Sam wasn't even the initial possession, as I could justify it as Dean being next of kin and Sam wasn't in the position to make the decision. It was not telling Sam when Sam was capable of making the decision, and then Dean's absolute refusal to apologize for any of it. He didn't even apologize for not telling Sam. I long ago forgave him for all of it though (not that he needs my forgiveness). I do believe that Dean would not do the same thing now, despite what he said at the time. 8 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, SueB said: I thought the whole point of S11 was to have BOTH Sam and Dean get back to the "Saving People" part of the bumper sticker. As such, each was prepared to lose the other for the common good. Dean, although he had no real time to argue, stood by and held Sam as he took on the Mark. He HATED it, but he didn't try to stop it. Sam stood by and supported Dean as he went off to be "the bomb". Again, he HATED it, but he didn't try to stop it. The conversation that they had had while beer bottle bowling was an agreement on a new policy of "let the person choose" but they also seemed to agree that always didn't make sense -- so they went off to save Cas. There is definitely a "woulda, shoulda, coulda," potential for EACH case, and ultimately neither brother had to live long with the consequences of letting the other "die/be damaged". But without killing them again, I think they showed respect for the world over respect for each other. In S12, they were BOTH prepared to have one of them die to get out of jail. Both thought THEY would be the one to die before Mary attempted to override and Cas stopped the whole thing. Again, PLENTY of woulda/shoulda/coulda scenarios but this was a different Dean than the unapologetic one from the end of The Purge IMO. Back to The Purge versus now; I think S12 Dean would have LET Sam shut the gates of Hell**. But once it became personal, I'm still a little iffy on whether or not he'd have accepted 'Ezekiel's' help. IF he accepted Zeke's help, I think the lying would have stopped sooner and Zeke would have revealed his true nature more quickly. And now, SueB's woulda/shoulda/coulda.... If Sam dies, Dean won't last long without him. It's just not in him. Still. So, he might respect Sam's wishes, but how he lives his life afterwords would be (at THIS moment), I think different. He won't settle down. He'll keep hunting until he dies. And take huge risks until something gets him. We saw Dean essentially attempt suicide by Reaper in S11 rather than have Sam die in Red Meat. We saw him take a huge inhale of Amara Darkness fog when Sam was dying (to no avail). I personally am convinced that Dean would have pulled some dirty trick to be the one to die in S12 rather than let Sam die. Unlike his position in S9, I think Dean has come to accept that a death for the sake of the world is an okay way for either brother to go. But he REALLY doesn't want to live in a world where Sam dies. At least he didn't until Mary came back. Now enter Mary... presuming she comes back eventually... THAT might be enough to get Dean to continue living. Regarding Sam, I think Sam knows Dean's limitations. Sam will sacrifice himself in a minute for others, but if Dean died, he'd carry on IMO better than Dean. Dean still has that whole parental-directive towards Sam. Sam would carry on in Dean's name IMO. He would protect Dean's legacy. I think Sam would have a longer view and try to pass on what he knows versus go out in a blaze of glory. He told Charlie he wouldn't hunt without Dean. And he might not. But he's more likely to turn to the Men of Letters materials and do something with that for others rather than just keep on hunting or turn completely away from the life. This is not a judgement of EITHER Sam or Dean. Both are brave and self-sacrificing. But I just don't know if Dean could last long if Sam died (again, Mary introduces a new wrinkle). Conversely, I think Sam would be gutted, but I think he could find purpose again. And I think Sam is smart enough to know, the burden of dying second (i.e. living with the other dead) would be a GIFT to Dean. That sounds really morbid, but that's sort of where I see them now. Bottom Line for the TL, DR: I think Dean has moved beyond The Purge and would have let Sam die to save the world in Sacrifice if he had to do it over again. Once the decision was made to NOT have him die in Sacrifice, I think he would have taken Zeke's help but have attempted (unsuccessfully) to reveal the lie much earlier. **For those relatively new to the board, I am personally convinced that the proactive "Shut the Gates of Hell" lever that the boys CHOOSE to pull was a fundamental error. They were attempting to change the natural order by using the demon tablet. It could be argued that there were more demons walking the earth since S1 and that the whole Apocalypse-prep (opening the Devils gate, etc...) was being corrected by this move to use the demon tablet, but they never used that explanation. They just said they wanted to put away those things that had killed their mother and brought all sorts of evil into the world. I agree that Closing the Gates of Hell was a bad idea. I think the consequences of what happened when Heaven was closed off in Season 9 were to show us that closing off Hell wasn't wasn't necessarily a good thing, and as you say it started a domino effect for the things that came after, but I think that's the way things usually happen on this show. I disagree that Dean was attempting suicide in Red Meat. I think he was doing what he did in Appointment in Samarra in an effort to contact Billie and get Sam back. I think it's only after Billie refuses to deal with him that he offers himself in an exchange deal. I also don't think that Dean was attempting to kill himself when the Darkness made Sam sick. I think he looked around, saw the mist was already surrounding them, but he wasn't being affected, and inhaled more deeply to test it. I think what we see after that is the confirmation he received that he could very well be the last man left on Earth if the fog is spreading everywhere. Dean can and has survived while Sam was dead. Is it something he'll try to stop from happening at all costs? Yes. Will he try to reverse it anyway he can as part of his not giving up on family? Yes. He did that even when Sam was in the cage by researching ways to get Sam out. Will he be miserable and drink copious amounts of alcohol? Yes, but I don't think Sam faired much better in his breakdown between Season 7 and 8, and Sam has also repeatedly attempted to exchange himself for Dean's life, but nobody has ever taken him up on it. And now? As you say Mary being alive again changes things. 4 Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 3, 2017 Author Share August 3, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Katy M said: I'm going to disagree. I think his worst act was the Book of the Damned thing. If, for no other reason, than 6, or however many, years down the road, he should have known better. But, more importantly, he was warned that there would be dire consequences. For the whole world. Yeah, angels warned him about the demon blood, but only after he was addicted. And, sure, any idiot should know better than to drink demon blood. I'm not at all defending that decision. I'm just saying, IMO, Book of the Damned was worse. And, then, he too, said he would do it again. I'm totally with you there. Breaking the world once, even though you think there probably will be consequences, but have no idea what they are and how bad it's going to be, is one thing. Doing it again, especially when you have a pretty good inkling it's gonna be really, really bad, well that's a whole other story. 8 hours ago, companionenvy said: Okay, but if multiple main characters state something about a third party and the third party never contradicts it, I'd say their opinion has been validated. If the show had actually wanted us to believe that Dean had a plan all along, they would have had him say so. First, I believe Dean did deny he was giving up, just no one believed him. Also, I didn't say Dean had a plan, quite the opposite. No one had a plan, that was the problem. If Dean had actually had a plan of trying to take over Michael or convince Michael to kill Lucifer or whatever, then it wouldn't have been a problem with him saying yes. So, for me, it wasn't so much Dean was walking off the field and turning in his jersey forever, but that he just didn't believe in the strategy--or his own team--so he went out on the field all by himself. That's not quitting or giving up, that's changing tactics. Granted, without a plan and a team, it was very likely to be a disaster, but doesn't say quitter to me. 10 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said: See, I think it was said to clear up any misunderstandings, like there were people, including Julian Richings, who didn't think it was really Death talking to Sam (I think he said that Death not eating was what made him think that?), but that would mean that it was Sam's ego telling him the things Death said to him in S9E01, and the show wanted to correct that by confirming that no, it was actually Death. If I could ignore 9.01 altogether, I would simply because I think both Sam and Dean are written totally out of character in order to make the plot work. In fact, I think Dean is out of character for most of S9, but especially at the start of it. One of the reasons I loathe S9. TBH, Other than Castiel's human journey, think the whole episode is off-kilter and wrong. To add to the pile of things that are hard to wrap my head around: Dean trusting "Ezekiel" with Sam's life while also allowing himself to be so obviously manipulated by him seems more like plot contrivance than anything. I still have no idea why everything Sam would need to move on was in a cabin in the woods. After all, it is a projection of Sam's mind and a cabin in the woods just doesn't seem like Sam's kind of place. Why Bobby was the voice of giving up of all people--I get why Dean was the voice for keeping fighting, probably the only thing about Sam's comascape that felt right. Anyway, I think Carver forgot it wasn't actually Bobby or Death and what that would say about Sam if he was imagining he was important enough to be reaped by the big daddy reaper himself and that he really did think he rescued Bobby from Hell all by himself. It might even come down to there was no one editing Carver's scripts and giving notes on stuff like this? I mean, does someone edit the editor's scripts? So, yeah, unfortunately Sam's comascape does Sam no favors in 9.02, but I still think that wasn't actually Death, just a projection of Sam's mind. And, if they put in the line later as a "fix," it still doesn't fix things because the stuff Sam imagines Bobby saying does Sam no favors either. Edited August 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot 3 Link to comment
catrox14 August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said: I disagree that Dean was attempting suicide in Red Meat. I think he was considering death by werewolf right after he thought Sam died but once Lying Werewolf convinced him to help him he got out of that mode. I thought he tried to kill himself with the OD at first, but I've since modified my opinion on that one to be being like you say he did in Appointment in Samarra. But this was much riskier because the doctor didn't know that's what he was doing and he was trusting the Lying Werewolf's wife to help him. Personally , I never thought Dean saved Sam in s9 for himself. I stand by MO that he did it because he thought Sam did NOT WANT TO DIE at the end of s8. Whatever "Ezekiel" said to Sam about "There aint no me if there ain't no you" was such a RIDICULOUS line that IMO, it was what 'Ezekiel' thought coma!SAm would need to hear to get him to say yes, but IMO that was never actually Dean speaking or Dean's words out of his mouth or mind. Unfortunately, I think that gets used to defend the "toxic brodependency" and as evidence that "SEE, Dean says he can't live without Sam" but IMO that's not what that was at all. Because Dean has lived without Sam in the past and he can do it again. IMO there is a big difference between 'Dean can't/doesn't want to live without Sam" and 'Dean saying "I can't live with you dead". Completely different rationales and motives for why Dean sold his soul for Sam and did what he did in Appt in Samaara and in Red Meat with dying to contact Death and Billie. IMO if Dean really could not live without Sam, he would have killed himself instead of selling his soul in s2. IMO Dean actually could have also just killed himself in s9 instead of trying ways to save Sam that didn't require him selling his soul, like praying for help. IMO Dean's "I can't live with you dead" doesn't mean that Dean cannot live without Sam. It means that Dean will do whatever it takes to make sure SAM LIVES even if it means he dies. Edited August 3, 2017 by catrox14 7 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 (edited) 31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: First, I believe Dean did deny he was giving up, just no one believed him. Also, I didn't say Dean had a plan, quite the opposite. No one had a plan, that was the problem. If Dean had actually had a plan of trying to take over Michael or convince Michael to kill Lucifer or whatever, then it wouldn't have been a problem with him saying yes. Eh, I guess it depends on your definition of giving up is. For me, the line: "We might as well have. I’m tired, man. I’m tired of fighting who I'm supposed to be." Is a sign he's giving up, and that doesn't make him weak to me. It's him getting back up and doing what needed to be done that counts, and I actually think that him planning on giving up and then overcoming it shows his strength. He does seem to deny it and say that it has to be him, that it's what needs to be done because they're out of options, etc., but that one line does it for me, because the whole season we saw him sinking further and further beneath the weight of what was happening. 31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: If I could ignore 9.01 altogether, I would simply because I think both Sam and Dean are written totally out of character in order to make the plot work. In fact, I think Dean is out of character for most of S9, but especially at the start of it. One of the reasons I loathe S9. Anyway, I think Carver forgot it wasn't actually Bobby or Death and what that would say about Sam if he was imagining he was important enough to be reaped by the big daddy reaper himself and that he really did think he rescued Bobby from Hell all by himself. It might even come down to there was no one editing Carver's scripts and giving notes on stuff like this? I mean, does someone edit the editor's scripts? I think there was a whole lot that Carver forgot in season 9 or changed about previous canon, but it probably belongs in the unpopular thread. Edited August 3, 2017 by CluelessDrifter 3 Link to comment
Katy M August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Why Bobby was the voice of giving up of all people--I get why Dean was the voice for keeping fighting, probably the only thing about Sam's comascape that felt right. I'm not trying to defend Season 9. It's my least favorite season by a longshot. However, I don't think Sam thought of dying as giving up. It's just the natural end of life. And, Bobby did give them the "when it's your time, just go" speech in Survival of the Fittest. So, I don't think this particular use of him in Sam's dream was so crazy. OK, Bobby, ruined that speech in Taxi Driver when he told Sam to try to bring him back, but it's Sam's head. He gets to pick ad choose. And who else would he have used for that role? Not John, that's for sure. 4 Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 3, 2017 Author Share August 3, 2017 35 minutes ago, Katy M said: I'm not trying to defend Season 9. It's my least favorite season by a longshot. However, I don't think Sam thought of dying as giving up. It's just the natural end of life. And, Bobby did give them the "when it's your time, just go" speech in Survival of the Fittest. So, I don't think this particular use of him in Sam's dream was so crazy. OK, Bobby, ruined that speech in Taxi Driver when he told Sam to try to bring him back, but it's Sam's head. He gets to pick ad choose. And who else would he have used for that role? Not John, that's for sure. Maybe giving up wasn't the right term...acceptance, then? Sure, Bobby gave them the speech at the end of S7, but when Sam rescued him from Hell in S8 he was wanting to come back instead of being sent to Heaven. I just thought it was weird Sam would conjure up Bobby to tell him it was okay to stop fighting. But, like I said, very little of the episode felt true to me. As to who would be a better voice of acceptance, I don't know. Sam doesn't have a lot of people he's been close to over the years, the only person that comes to mind that would make more sense would be Jessica and I doubt the actress was available. 2 Link to comment
ILoveReading August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 13 hours ago, Wayward Son said: He is still the guy who is willing to inflict trauma on his brother, as long as the needs of Dean are met. Doesn't this also apply to Sam as well? Sam used Lester and certainly didn't care that it cost him his life/ soul because he was desperate to talk to a demon. Charlie got caught in the crossfire in Sam's attempt to remove the Mark. Despite saying he was sorry he didn't let it go, so how sorry was he really? Here is why Sam said to Dean in the Prisoner Quote Maybe not, but – when it's done with you, you won't be you anymore. Dean, you're all I've got. So of course, I was gonna fight for you because that's what we do. And listen, I had a shot— Sam is admitting he's doing this, because he doesn't want to be alone and Dean was all he had. The exact same reason Sam raked Dean over the coals for, being selfish and not wanting to be alone. Why is it brotherly love for Sam, but selfish for Dean? Then there was Oscar who Sam didn't care was a human sacrifice. I honestly don't remember if Sam knew about Oscar but I doubt he would have cared or told them to shut it down because of this.... Quote DEATH Our conundrum is simple, Sam. Your brother cannot be killed, and the Mark cannot be destroyed, not without inciting a far greater evil than any of us have ever known. Quote DEATH Even if I remove Dean from the playing field, we're still left with you, loyal, dogged Sam, who I suspect will never rest until he sets his brother free – (Death walks around Dean to stand between Sam and Dean. As he gets closer to Sam, Dean walks further away. Death walks closer to Sam until he is right in his face) will never rest until his brother is free of the Mark, which simply cannot happen, lest the Darkness be set free. Here is death telling Sam that if the mark is removed it will release the darkness. Sam had time to make a phone call and shut down the spell. He willingly and knowingly started an apocalypse to meet the needs of Sam. As for Sam's fancy speech in ep 11, we know that since this is a tv show, and unless Jensen or Jared decides not to renew their contract or the show ends, they if one brother is in peril the other will do something to bring them back. IMO, Sam's words mean nothing because we know they arent' true. The problem is that the show is so wishy-washy on whether its okay to do this. Because we have that horrid Red Meat where the show actually glamorized suicide in the name of the brotherly bond. It needs to pick a side and stick to it. because if they say its okay for one brother, then it needs to be okay for both. *I'm not saying I agree with what Dean did, I don't, my problem here is more with the writers and the inconsistency. 4 Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 3, 2017 Author Share August 3, 2017 (edited) 49 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Because we have that horrid Red Meat where the show actually glamorized suicide in the name of the brotherly bond. I'm with others in that I don't believe Dean was suicidal in Red Meat...well not when he downed the pills anyway. I think earlier when he had a dead brother and no plan, he was a bit suicidal. But, when he downed those pills, I don't think he wanted to die anymore. He had a plan--a risky plan that he might not come back from--and that plan was for him and Sam to both live, not he die so Sam could live. But, to your point, yes the show does need to pick a side on this and stop using them saving each other as a source for conflict when it suits them or a source of brotherly love when it doesn't. Edited August 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot 9 Link to comment
Katy M August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: But, to your point, yes the show does need to pick a side on this and stop using them saving each other as a source for conflict when it suits them or a source of brotherly love when it doesn't. I agree. But, in this case, I think technically Sam doesn't know about this. He asked Dean what he did. Dean basically said nothing. I don't think Sam necessarily believed him, but with no concrete proof that he did something stupid, there was nothing really to call him on. So, maybe that's what we need. If they are going to insist on doing stupid things to save each other, the show actually needs to keep it secret from the other. Permanently. 54 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: As for Sam's fancy speech in ep 11, we know that since this is a tv show, and unless Jensen or Jared decides not to renew their contract or the show ends, they if one brother is in peril the other will do something to bring them back. IMO, Sam's words mean nothing because we know they arent' true. I wish they were true, though. The show could put them in more normal peril, where they wouldn't have to do anything supernatural, shady, or skeevy to save the other one. There's nothing wrong with trying to save one another. It's their methods. 1 Link to comment
ILoveReading August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: I'm with others in that I don't believe Dean was suicidal in Red Meat...well not when he downed the pills anyway. I think earlier when he had a dead brother and no plan, he was a bit suicidal. But, when he downed those pills, I don't think he wanted to die anymore. He had a plan--a risky plan that he might not come back from--and that plan was for him and Sam to both live, not he die so Sam could live. But, to your point, yes the show does need to pick a side on this and stop using them saving each other as a source for conflict when it suits them or a source of brotherly love when it doesn't. It's not so much Dean's actions as the message I felt that episode sent. I disliked it intensely. Whether Dean truly wanted to die or not, is beside the point because the show romanticized Dean trying to throw his life away by making Romeo and Juliet comparisons. It's a hot button issue for me, so just......no. When Dean sold his soul, the show treated it as a product of Dean's twisted pysche, and not some gesture of brotherly love. It also sends a message that Dean still feels his live is worth less than Sam. I don't see anything good about that. 2 Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 3, 2017 Author Share August 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: It's not so much Dean's actions as the message I felt that episode sent. I disliked it intensely. Whether Dean truly wanted to die or not, is beside the point because the show romanticized Dean trying to throw his life away by making Romeo and Juliet comparisons. No, I understood what you were saying--and I agree with you that the message the show sent was poor and poorly executed--I just wanted to throw my two cents in on whether Dean was actually suicidal. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Personally, I think Read Meat is a terrible episode for sooooo many reasons, but that's probably better suited for another thread. 2 Link to comment
ILoveReading August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: No, I understood what you were saying--and I agree with you that the message the show sent was poor and poorly executed--I just wanted to throw my two cents in on whether Dean was actually suicidal. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Personally, I think Read Meat is a terrible episode for sooooo many reasons, but that's probably better suited for another thread. I agree. When we first got the spoiler that Sam wasn't going to look for Dean, I understood where Carver was coming from. He wanted Sam and Dean to have a healthier relationship. I didn't disagree on the concept. Unfortunately the execution as lacking. Carver's mistake was ignoring the middle ground. There is a large gap between making deal and doing nothing at all. They found this middle ground with Dean in s6. We know he didn't stop looking for a way to free Sam, but he was resarching. He didn't poke at the cage or do anything that would risk releasing Lucifer. Unfortunately, when that didn't go over well, I found Carver took it way to far in the other direction where Sam and Dean started to look selfish and too wrapped up in each other. Dean wasn't that clingy even in s1. It's where I find the writers weakest point is their ability to create layers, its either all or nothing, but that is probably for another thread. 5 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 14 hours ago, Katy M said: I'm going to disagree. I think his worst act was the Book of the Damned thing. I think the worst thing Sam has ever done was abandon Kevin to Crowley. And I do think abandon is the correct term for what Sam did there. If I squint hard enough, I can understand why Sam might not have looked for Dean at the end of S7, but to run out on Kevin was unforgivable. I can't explain why I think this is even worse than the Book of the Damned thing, (which it probably shouldn't be) but for me it is. :) 9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: I still have no idea why everything Sam would need to move on was in a cabin in the woods. After all, it is a projection of Sam's mind and a cabin in the woods just doesn't seem like Sam's kind of place. Oh, I don't know - I think it is. In S7, he went hiking in the desert instead of hitting the stripper bars with Dean in Vegas. There have been a couple other episodes, which I can't name right now, where Sam has talked about just going camping instead of having to hike through the woods to find the monster. And he was jogging through the woods when he started having the visions from Lucifer he thought was God. Now if Dean's place to move on was a cabin in the woods, that would really seem OOC for me. 1 hour ago, ILoveReading said: 1. Sam used Lester and certainly didn't care that it cost him his life/ soul because he was desperate to talk to a demon. 2. Charlie got caught in the crossfire in Sam's attempt to remove the Mark. Despite saying he was sorry he didn't let it go, so how sorry was he really? 3.Then there was Oscar who Sam didn't care was a human sacrifice. I honestly don't remember if Sam knew about Oscar but I doubt he would have cared or told them to shut it down because of this.... 4. The problem is that the show is so wishy-washy on whether its okay to do this. Because we have that horrid Red Meat where the show actually glamorized suicide in the name of the brotherly bond. It needs to pick a side and stick to it. because if they say its okay for one brother, then it needs to be okay for both. 1. I think Sam did care if it cost Lester his life/soul. He was only intending to use Lester as bait. I don't think Sam actually thought Lester would go through with it (as most people tend to freak out when confronted with a Real demon!) or he thought he could stop it before Lester was able to make the deal. That doesn't excuse the fact that Sam did use Lester unwittingly as bait. But it's not the same as saying 'he didn't care if it cost Lester his life/soul.' 2. Saying "Charlie got caught in the crossfire" takes away Charlie's agency, imo. Charlie knew what she was getting into. She agreed to do it and keep it from Dean of her own free will, so all the blame, or even most of the blame, for her death does not lie on Sam's shoulders, imo. Especially since she left a perfectly safe place guarded by an angel when she knew there were people out there trying to track her down and kill her. She gets all the points for that stupidity. 3. Who's Oscar? I honestly don't remember him. Was he the kid Roweena bled out to activate the spell to remove the mark? If so...eh. I did feel sorry for him, but he'd lived an unnaturally long life already. Was he actually human? 4. I agree with all who don't think Dean was trying to commit suicide in Red Meat. I also don't think it was 'glamorized'. 23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: Personally, I think Read Meat is a terrible episode for sooooo many reasons, but that's probably better suited for another thread. I liked Red Meat. But that's probably an opinion for another thread also. :) 3 Link to comment
SueB August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: 1. I think Sam did care if it cost Lester his life/soul. He was only intending to use Lester as bait. I don't think Sam actually thought Lester would go through with it (as most people tend to freak out when confronted with a Real demon!) or he thought he could stop it before Lester was able to make the deal. That doesn't excuse the fact that Sam did use Lester unwittingly as bait. But it's not the same as saying 'he didn't care if it cost Lester his life/soul.' 2. Saying "Charlie got caught in the crossfire" takes away Charlie's agency, imo. Charlie knew what she was getting into. She agreed to do it and keep it from Dean of her own free will, so all the blame, or even most of the blame, for her death does not lie on Sam's shoulders, imo. Especially since she left a perfectly safe place guarded by an angel when she knew there were people out there trying to track her down and kill her. She gets all the points for that stupidity. 3. Who's Oscar? I honestly don't remember him. Was he the kid Roweena bled out to activate the spell to remove the mark? If so...eh. I did feel sorry for him, but he'd lived an unnaturally long life already. Was he actually human? 4. I agree with all who don't think Dean was trying to commit suicide in Red Meat. I also don't think it was 'glamorized'. 1. Agreed, but he used a civilian as bait -- inherently risky. 2. I support Charlie had agency. But I also think it was plot-induced stupidity versus in-character to Charlie. 3. Yes, Rowena's "love". And Sam didn't know about Oscar -- at all. Perhaps Cas told him afterwords but that all happened after Sam went after Dean. 4. I think Dean intended to come back from the pill overdose but I also think he was ready to trade his life for Sam's in a heartbeat. I don't think it was glamorized. I think Dean looked desperate. 1 Link to comment
Katy M August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 58 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: I think the worst thing Sam has ever done was abandon Kevin to Crowley. And I do think abandon is the correct term for what Sam did there. If I squint hard enough, I can understand why Sam might not have looked for Dean at the end of S7, but to run out on Kevin was unforgivable. I can't explain why I think this is even worse than the Book of the Damned thing, (which it probably shouldn't be) but for me it is. :) I 100% agree that abandoning Kevin was wrong wrong wrong. Actually, I was about to say that only affected Kevin, whereas the Book affected the world, but since kevein was a prophet, that's not really true. Maybe I'll rank them as equal. 1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: 2. Saying "Charlie got caught in the crossfire" takes away Charlie's agency, imo. Charlie knew what she was getting into. She agreed to do it and keep it from Dean of her own free will, so all the blame, or even most of the blame, for her death does not lie on Sam's shoulders, imo. Especially since she left a perfectly safe place guarded by an angel when she knew there were people out there trying to track her down and kill her. She gets all the points for that stupidity. I put Charlie's death 100% on Charlie. Well, no, I put it on the Steins. But, Charlie would have been safe if she had stayed with Cas. She's the one who left just because Rowena was bugging her. 5 Link to comment
trxr4kids August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: If I could ignore 9.01 altogether, I would simply because I think both Sam and Dean are written totally out of character in order to make the plot work. In fact, I think Dean is out of character for most of S9, but especially at the start of it. One of the reasons I loathe S9. I feel like S9 was Carver deliberately being petty because his vision of mature Sam and his take on breaking the co dependency went over like a lead balloon, almost like he was saying, " oh you think this would have been better, well here you go" and by the way screw you. I agree with you the Carver era being is all about being petty little jerks. I mean yes, if you look back over the seasons you can find examples to back up that this was not new behavior for either of them but the characters weren't reduced to their worst traits or behaviors...... the end.....that's all they are. I've said before S8 made me retroactively pissed at Sam for a myriad of reasons, Dean although also petty was just less so for me as a viewer because I at least had some sympathy for him still. The finale of S8 and most of S9 made me retroactively angry that maybe Dean is just a weak, clingy, moron and crushed any sympathy. I know that sounds horrible and harsh to both brothers but my point is that that's how I perceived them as written not that I believe it's who they are and it was mostly unwatchable and definitely anger inducing. For example Sam had valid reasons to be upset with Dean yet he didn't voice those, no it was all about how he was ready to die, Dean had valid reasons to believe Sam wanted to live yet he didn't voice those it was all, I had to save you.....just so much hate. As a Dean fan I don't want him weak and stupid, that's not the Dean I love as a character, as a Sam fan I don't want him manipulative and cruel, that's not the Sam I care about. Okay I think I'm done with my 8 & 9 rant.......very cathartic ; ) 5 Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 3, 2017 Author Share August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Oh, I don't know - I think it is. In S7, he went hiking in the desert instead of hitting the stripper bars with Dean in Vegas. There have been a couple other episodes, which I can't name right now, where Sam has talked about just going camping instead of having to hike through the woods to find the monster. And he was jogging through the woods when he started having the visions from Lucifer he thought was God. Now if Dean's place to move on was a cabin in the woods, that would really seem OOC for me. I wasn't suggesting Sam has an aversion to cabins or the outdoors, I just don't think the cabin was very personal to Sam. If it had been Rufus's cabin or Bobby's house or something like that, it would've made sense. But this was a completely random cabin in the woods, Sam didn't even imagine anything of his in that cabin that I recall. So, what about it was "everything Sam needed to move on?" 2 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, SueB said: 1. Agreed, but he used a civilian as bait -- inherently risky. 2. I support Charlie had agency. But I also think it was plot-induced stupidity versus in-character to Charlie. 3. Yes, Rowena's "love". And Sam didn't know about Oscar -- at all. Perhaps Cas told him afterwords but that all happened after Sam went after Dean. 4. I think Dean intended to come back from the pill overdose but I also think he was ready to trade his life for Sam's in a heartbeat. I don't think it was glamorized. I think Dean looked desperate. 1. agree about the civilian as bait. Especially since the civilian didn't know he was bait. 2. You're right about that being plot-induced stupidity, but I really didn't (don't) have a good enough handle on Charlie's character to say whether or not it was totally out of character for her. 3. Ah, I'd forgotten that Sam left and didn't know about Oscar. 4. Agree that Dean was desperate. 41 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: I wasn't suggesting Sam has an aversion to cabins or the outdoors, I just don't think the cabin was very personal to Sam. If it had been Rufus's cabin or Bobby's house or something like that, it would've made sense. But this was a completely random cabin in the woods, Sam didn't even imagine anything of his in that cabin that I recall. So, what about it was "everything Sam needed to move on?" Oh,okay - I agree that the cabin wasn't very 'personal' to Sam and would have made more sense if it had been one of Rufus' or Bobby's cabins. As far as having 'everything he needed to move on', well, Death was there. What else do you really need? ;) ETA: I was expecting to see more there (in the cabin) the first time I watched the episode though. Edited August 3, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey adding "right" kind of makes the sentence complete. 1 Link to comment
Katy M August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: I wasn't suggesting Sam has an aversion to cabins or the outdoors, I just don't think the cabin was very personal to Sam. If it had been Rufus's cabin or Bobby's house or something like that, it would've made sense. But this was a completely random cabin in the woods, Sam didn't even imagine anything of his in that cabin that I recall. So, what about it was "everything Sam needed to move on?" Maybe that was the point. Maybe in order to move on he had to leave everything behind. But, I noticed a few years ago, that Sam doesn't really have "stuff." He has his laptop, his phone, and his clothes. Dean has or has had: the Impala (which I consider Dean's not really both of theirs), the amulet, his leather jacket, his tape collection, a picture of him and Mary. 3 Link to comment
Katy M August 3, 2017 Share August 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: 1. agree about the civilian as bait. Especially since the civilian didn't know he was bait. 2. You're about that being plot-induced stupidity, but I really didn't (don't) have a good enough handle on Charlie's character to say whether or not it was totally out of character for her. 3. Ah, I'd forgotten that Sam left and didn't know about Oscar. 4. Agree that Dean was desperate. 1. I honestly just can't care that much about Lester. SAm didn't plant the thought of killing his wife in Lester's head. That was his own desire. So, yeah, you shouldn't use civilians as bait, but, at the same time, I just can't care. 2. I kind of agree. We know that Charlie went out on solo hunts after learning to hunt from an app. Seriously. Who even made that app? Doesn't sound too birhg or safe to me. She went after the BOD on her own (with their knowledge and approval) and managed to escape the Steins several times. So, maybe she was feeling kind of invincible. Who knows? 3. Sam knew that Oscar existed. Because Cas touched her head and she told the story before Sam left. However, Sam had no reason to think someone from a couple of hundrerd years ago was still alive. Howevver, he DID know that the final ingredient was killing something Rowena loved and he said to do whatever it took. But, we don't know for sure what he would have done if confronted with a live, kind of cute looking, Oscar. And, I don't even think Crowley and Cas knew she was actually going to kill him, considering she pulled him in for a hug and told him it was going to be OK. 3 Link to comment
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