“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean comes back from Purgatory to a guy who doesn´t act even one iota like he was broken or regretful or anything. Nope, Sam acts put upon that Dean dares to be alive. Wow. Did anyone force Sam to leave the bitchy vet? I don`t think so. Sam explained crap. He acted smug and self-righteous about not lifting a finger to save Dean. Or Kevin.

I wish i could like your post more than once.  It was the exact same when Dean got out of hell.  He spent 30 years under extreme torture and almost became the thing he hated.  But when he gets back he's supposed to be over that in 5 minutes and how dare he not show more sympathy and understanding for poor Sammy who suffered so much topside. Everything would have been okay if Dean wasn't so bossy.  (Even though Sam spent the season calling him weak, but okay). 

Sam also acted put up that Dean came back from hell.  Its why I don't find Sam all that OOC is season 8.  He acted pretty much the same way he did when Dean go out of hell.  He just didn't have the demon blood as an excuse.

The problem with season 8 is that we were told Sam didn't' look because he was Mature and made a decision not to continue the co-dependcy.  If Sam did have some kind of mental break down, which the show did not do good job of making that clear, he could have easily called Garth and told him the situation and gave Garth his phones.  It sounds more like Sam made a clear headed decision, Dean's dead,  I'm moving on.  

If Sam's defining characteristic is supposed to be Empathy, one would think he might have some for his brother.  That Sam might consider that after spending decades being tortured by demons, it might be triggering for Dean to be around one?  Did Sam care about that when he insisted that Dean be BFF's with a demon?  Also if Sam is supposed to be so close to Dean that he knows him better than anyone, I would think that Sam would understand why Dean was so hurt.  That he has a fear of abandoment and to Dean that is what it would look like.  Even if Sam wasn't capable of looking, Sam could have said, "Dean, im sorry I hurt you but I wasn't in the right frame of mind.  I was afraid i would do something stupid. " 

If Dean is supposed to have empathy for Sam it needs to go both ways. 

As for the trials, I thought it was Dean that was supposed to be suicidal?  That's what those ridiculous speeches told us.  That Sam was going to show Dean the light.  Then Dean proceeded to try and be there for Sam, literally cooking and bathing, and feeding him.  He also told anyone that would listen how great Sam was.  The minute Sam's arm lit up he forget every word he said. 

The more Dean tried to be there for him the more Sam resented it and saw it as babying.  "You can barely do it with me, you think I need a chaperone."

That's what bothers me more the most.  Every time Dean objects to something Sam wants to do, Sam makes it about him, even if Dean has a valid objection.  Sam just pulls the little brother card.   Demon blood drinking, lying sneaking around.  Nope, not Sam's choices, Dean was just bossy.  Sam is too weak to stand because of trialburculosis, or can't tell reality from fanstasy.  But nope, Dean just thinks Sam needs a chaperone.  In those two cases you really do. 

Spoiler

That's why I dislike that spoiler that says Sam's going to back down the road of you hate Jack, you hate me.  Its just more feeding Sam's ego.  Because now Dean has to tell him once again how brave and special he is.   I also feel like it why Dabb is going the whole Dean doesn't look for Mary route.  I think the whole, "he's too broken" is Jensen's spin, and Dabb is doing it to whitewash Sam to Dean will apologize once again for not being more understanding to Sam.

Edited July 29, 2017 by ILoveReading

[mertensia]

On 7/25/2017 at 7:41 PM, catrox14 said:

No, I agree he wasn't held accountable but I think, intentionally or not, the end result is they are flat out implying this is who Dean (and Cain) always was.  That in his DNA he's a killer. That's what I get from it. Like he's not "guilty" of a crime but that he is  fundamentally evil.

Well, and so what if he's a born killer? We have seen time and time again that that is not who Dean (or Sam, for that matter) chooses to be.  For Dean "hunting things. Saving people" is his mantra. His world view.  I don't know that he'd be rushing to the West Coast to help after a devastating earthquake emanating from the Cascadia Fault, but if he were there when it hit, he'd be the one refusing to leave off helping survivors until the last nanosecond.

[shang yiet]

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Because Sam went to THE CAGE!!!Gasp!!!With Michael and Lucifer!!!!! Never mind Michael turned out to be a huge baby, LUCIFER WAS THERE!!!!

Sam's hell trauma is not a joke. Just because some fans feel the show put too much emphasis on it doesn't mean Sam's torture by Lucifer is not perfectly legitimate. It did cause him valid psychological issues, to say the least.

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Dean was only in hell with the demon torture master trying to break the first seal, in charge of or directly torturing him, nothing to see there!

Nobody here is downplaying Dean's hell trauma. I get you feel the writers did but I don't think that's the point here.

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Someone who comes back from that kind of (combat) trauma (IRL) can and does frequently not think/react sanely due to the trauma.

Does not the same goes for Sam? He had a nervous breakdown, OK? He was heading for one even before Dean disappeared. He thought Dean had died and he couldn't handle it.

Frankly, I think we are at a standoff here. Dean should not be expected to be more understanding because of his psychological issues. Fine. So Sam also should not be expected to be more understanding because of his psychological issues. Agreed?

[Aeryn13]

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Well, and so what if he's a born killer? 

That means he is fundamentally evil and he is hunting only to feed his evil desires. Not to help people but solely to kill something. And if there was nothing to hunt, he would happily kill the inhabitants of the next orphanage or something. This is the mindset from the show.

There is a difference between someone being a warrior and being a killer and writers like the Nepotism Duo give so simple-minded answers, they make me think they don`t realize that, at all.    

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Sam also acted put up that Dean came back from hell. 

I will say when Dean came back from hell, Sam did act happy and relieved at first. Sure, after a while he seemed to bask fully in the "Dean is weak and I`m strong and powerful" mindset. But at least this Season ended with him tumbling off that highhorse via Ruby revealing how very much not strong and powerful Sam had been when she pupeteered him along. 

Season 5 was the one which screwed that over by lifting Sam back on the horse and retroactively making it Dean`s fault.

But there was a difference to me in how Sam was portrayed initially in Season 4 and Season 8. The latter I surely didn`t see a mental breakdown but he was higher up on that horse than he had ever been.   

[mertensia]

And again: have you seen any indication that Dean is, in fact, acting like a born killer? No. He isn't. Because DNA and nature aren't everything. 

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I will say when Dean came back from hell, Sam did act happy and relieved at first. Sure, after a while he seemed to bask fully in the "Dean is weak and I`m strong and powerful" mindset. But at least this Season ended with him tumbling off that highhorse via Ruby revealing how very much not strong and powerful Sam had been when she pupeteered him along. 

Put on, is probably the wrong word.  It sticks out that Sam left Dean on his first night back to go be with Ruby.  It's almost more like Sam resented Dean coming back and questioning his actions.   He didn't like Dean pointing out that maybe what Sam was doing wasn't so great.  Sam didn't want to give up that power, and he felt Dean was taking that way from him. 

That's the biggest problem with S4 and 5.  Sam might have felt powerful but he really wasn't.  Ruby only gave him the illusion of being in control when in reality she was pulling his strings like a puppet.  She was far more controlling than Dean ever was.  It felt like Sam didn't see that.  He just put the blame on Dean for making him feel weak, when in reality it wasn't Dean, it was Sam allowing Ruby to manipulate him. 

[Aeryn13]

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And again: have you seen any indication that Dean is, in fact, acting like a born killer? No. He isn't. Because DNA and nature aren't everything. 

I don`t think it is in his nature in the first place. Because if it I did, I would agree, the character was evil. 

If I truly believed a character had it in their DNA/nature to be a killer, I would consider them wholly evil. That is what this does mean to me. Writers saying that about a character, any character, is actually horrible in my eyes. That`s writing someone off before giving them the tiniest chance.

So nope, I don`t think that about Dean. But that is different to what you are saying.

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She was far more controlling than Dean ever was.  It felt like Sam didn't see that.  He just put the blame on Dean for making him feel weak, when in reality it wasn't Dean, it was Sam allowing Ruby to manipulate him. 

That`s because he liked how she did it. Very early on she started by telling him "it`s all about you" and she led him from the bottom. Pretty much literally even.

This is the right tactic with Sam and quite frankly it works every time. It did then and it would do so now if done correctly. 

Lucifer, when he send the visions to get Sam to open the cage, was also using the right tactics. He pretended to be God and to have singled out Sam for the world-saving mission of wonderfulness. Then when he had Sam in his grasp, however, he went stupid and needled Sam. Well, he is Lucifer, and if anyone has even more of an ego-validation problem than Sam, it is Sam so I guess he couldn`t help himself but it also meant it wouldn`t work.         

Dean isn`t doing that but a) I don`t want him to do it, like ever and b) he shouldn`t have to. If Sam truly needs that, I`m sure he is gonna find one totally submissive, worshipping idiot who can fulfill that need.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Someone who comes back from that kind of (combat) trauma (IRL) can and does frequently not think/react sanely due to the trauma.

I didn't mean that it would have been sane of Dean to let it go.  I meant that it was sane of Sam not to look for a dead guy.  But, my point was, I think he should have just picked a side.  Let it go and move on.  Or Not let it go and literally move on.

 

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It sticks out that Sam left Dean on his first night back to go be with Ruby.  It's almost more like Sam resented Dean coming back and questioning his actions.

Dean was sleeping.  Was Sam supposed to creepily watch him? Sam wanted info from the demon using the secret ways that Dean didn't know about.  So, I wouldn't really call that leaving Dean to be with Ruby.  And, I think you're stretching to to say that Sam resented Dean coming back.  There was absolutely nothing to indicate that.

[Reganne]

55 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Sam's hell trauma is not a joke. Just because some fans feel the show put too much emphasis on it doesn't mean Sam's torture by Lucifer is not perfectly legitimate. It did cause him valid psychological issues, to say the least.

Nobody here is downplaying Dean's hell trauma. I get you feel the writers did but I don't think that's the point here.

Does not the same goes for Sam? He had a nervous breakdown, OK? He was heading for one even before Dean disappeared. He thought Dean had died and he couldn't handle it.

Frankly, I think we are at a standoff here. Dean should not be expected to be more understanding because of his psychological issues. Fine. So Sam also should not be expected to be more understanding because of his psychological issues. Agreed?

I completely agree.  I think some people just see it from the viewpoint of their favourite character.  Of course, it doesn't help that the narrative is usually from Dean's point of view so you never really get the full idea or viewpoint of Sam and his motivations or reasons.  Dean's hell trauma was traumatic.  I don't deny that.  They even had scenes dealing with it in season 4 and it also showed Sam being empathetic to Dean and saying how anyone would have broke in hell.  There was no empathy for Sam's addiction, pain, seizures etc.  Worry and anger maybe.  But that's it.  The problem with the narrative in season 4 and the way they kept Sam's addiction secretive in the beginning of the season is that it wipes away Sam's viewpoint from the narrative and makes him less sympathetic as  a character.  The viewers are brought into Dean's point of view from coming back from hell and then they also see Sam doing bad things.  By the time we see Sam's addiction, the viewers haven't followed his character into his downwards spiral to see exactly how or why Sam put himself into this position.  Though I do think you could come up with ideas on your own, it will always only be referred to as head canon.

 

I also see complaints about Sam calling Dean weak while on demon blood, but no one seems to have a problem with Dean saying "If Anyone needs a chaperone to do the heavy lifting it's Sam."  Isn't this also a way of saying Sam is weak or he needs someone to do the bulk of the work.  Now I am quite aware that Sam was going through the trials at the time Dean said this and at times he appeared physically exhausted. However, Sam's physical state wasn't brought up in the statement when Dean said point blank that Sam needs a chaperone.  It was stated as a general statement.  Maybe I could see it being taken in a different way if Dean were to have added "In his condition" or "with what the trials have been doing to him physically" but he didn't.  It was much more of a general statement.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by Reganne

[Reganne]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I didn't mean that it would have been sane of Dean to let it go.  I meant that it was sane of Sam not to look for a dead guy.  But, my point was, I think he should have just picked a side.  Let it go and move on.  Or Not let it go and literally move on.

 

Dean was sleeping.  Was Sam supposed to creepily watch him? Sam wanted info from the demon using the secret ways that Dean didn't know about.  So, I wouldn't really call that leaving Dean to be with Ruby.  And, I think you're stretching to to say that Sam resented Dean coming back.  There was absolutely nothing to indicate that.

Personally, I never thought it was wrong of Sam to not look for Dean.  That never bothered me.  Though Dean said he looked for Sam while he was in hell, Chuck/God said at the end of season 5 that Dean wasn't going to do that and it never really showed how much Dean did look for Sam or if it was just something he said.  What the narrative showed us was that Dean was spending time with Lisa and Ben.  I didn't have a problem with that then and I don't have a problem with Sam doing it at the beginning of season 8.

Personally, I think the problem was that Sam didn't look for Kevin when he knew that Crowley had him.  He left him high and dry.

And I too think it's a stretch to say that Sam left Dean for Ruby in this instance.  Dean didn't need somebody to watch him sleep.

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Personally, I think the problem was that Sam didn't look for Kevin when he knew that Crowley had him.  He left him high and dry.

Absolutely.  And, the annoying thing is it would have been so easy to fix by having Crowley kidnap Kevin after Sam took Kevin back home or something.  Or, had Sam look for him for a couple of weeks and have Crowley fool him into thinking he had killed Kevin because he got what he needed, or something.  Neither would have largely affected the story in any other way besides not making Sam look like the biggest jerk on the planet.  Unless that's what they were going for.

 

12 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Though Dean said he looked for Sam while he was in hell, Chuck/God said at the end of season 5 that Dean wasn't going to do that and it never really showed how much Dean did look for Sam or if it was just something he said.

And considering how easily he summoned Death to get Sam's soul back, makes you wonder why he didn't think of that earlier.  But, again, yes, he should have been leaving it alone, so I'm cool with that.

[Aeryn13]

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Dean's hell trauma was traumatic.  I don't deny that.  They even had scenes dealing with it in season 4 and it also showed Sam being empathetic to Dean and saying how anyone would have broke in hell. 

That lasted like 4 episodes after which Sam said what he really thought, namely "boohoo, get over it, cry-baby". That really makes me question how genuine his empathy truly was.

Then again, that is the viewpoint the show has re: Dean`s hell. It was a silly little thing, like a hangnail. When they don`t ignore it now. Meanwhile Sam`s hell has been brought up for years on end in some way or another. I`m sick of it.  This is like a fanfic where the author`s pet gets descriptives like "the character suffered more than anyone else in the history of ever". I don`t like to be forced that hard to stan for a character.  And it will not work.  

 

As for Sam`s viewpoint. In the penultimate episode of Season 4 we go literally in Sam`s head and explore what he thinks. And the figure of his mother? Calls Dean weak and blows smoke up Sam`s ass. So episodes that show me what Sam truly thinks usually show me that he thinks THAT.

There are complaints that his little hate-speech in the Purge was undermined because it ended on Dean`s devastated face and didn`t follow Sam into his room, being sad. Well, IMO that is because Sam wasn`t broken up to have said it. He was on a superiority high when he tore Dean to shreds. Dean being devastated by it was a logical reaction. I`m not so sure showing Sam with  a "hell yeah, finally put that fucker in his place" face would have made it that much more sympathetic. 

When Sam is angry or under the influence, he always says one thing. Whenever he wants Dean to convince something, out come the nice speeches. That really make it seem so sincere, writers. 

[Pondlass1]

47 minutes ago, Reganne said:

 What the narrative showed us was that Dean was spending time with Lisa and Ben.

I think the narrative very clearly showed us a Dean out of his mind frantic with worry.  It showed that very clearly to me anyway. 

 

52 minutes ago, Reganne said:

the narrative is usually from Dean's point of view so you never really get the full idea or viewpoint of Sam and his motivations or reasons

This^ is very true and something I've commented on many times in my posts.  I don't know if it's Jensen or the writing or what... but we get Dean (warts and all).

Sam we don't get.  Sam is often Not!Sam or off involved in some secrets & lies we don't really understand.  We're rarely privy to his motivations.  He's tortured by the BMOL and witness to their inefficiency... and yet says 'sign me up, I'll work on Dean' when he's shown  shiny gizmos.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Pondlass1

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, Reganne said:

 Dean's hell trauma was traumatic.  I don't deny that.

Unfortunately, the show does.  It acts like Dean's time there was no big deal, and they have him call it Grace Land, say 6 weeks of isolation was far worse, it ignores that fact that Dean was even there. 

 

13 minutes ago, Reganne said:

They even had scenes dealing with it in season 4 and it also showed Sam being empathetic to Dean and saying how anyone would have broke in hell.  There was no empathy for Sam's addiction, pain, seizures etc.  Worry and anger maybe.  

I disagree.  Dean tried to be sympathetic to Sam. He listened to Sam about why he was with Ruby.  When he found out they were sleeping together, his only reaction was TMI.  He gave Ruby multiple chances.  It was when she proved untrustworthy that Dean started to question.  He even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying to him.  To which Sam lied.  I'm not sure what more Dean could have done here.  Sam continued to lie and go behind Dean's back.  As for Sam's showing empathy, he did that right up until Dean confessed.  I don't think it was a coincidence that Dean went back to Ruby almost immediately after Dean admitted he broke in hell.

Sam telling Dean he was stronger, smarter and Dean was holding him back, and throwing the words boo hoo at him.  IMO, that's not empathy.  It felt like Sam used that as an excuse to go back to Ruby. 

I know the nurse gets the most attention, and its ignored, but at the end of The Rapture, Sam ripped a womans throat because he was desperate for a hit of demon blood.  He was getting out of control, that's what caused Dean to lock him up. 

Plus, Sam asked Dean to stop him if he went to far down that road. 

As for Sam leaving Dean, I guess for me it seems kind of cold to leave your brother his first night back after a traumatic experience.  No, he didn't have to sit and stare at him, he could have researched, watched TV or read a book and be there in case Dean needed him.

21 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I also see complaints about Sam calling Dean weak while on demon blood, but no one seems to have a problem with Dean saying "If Anyone needs a chaperone to do the heavy lifting it's Sam."  Isn't this also a way of saying Sam is weak or he needs someone to do the bulk of the work.  Now I am quite aware that Sam was going through the trials at the time Dean said this and at times he appeared physically exhausted. However, Sam's physical state wasn't brought up in the statement when Dean said point blank that Sam needs a chaperone.  It was stated as a general statement.  Maybe I could see it being taken in a different way if Dean were to have added "In his condition" or "with what the trials have been doing to him physically" but he didn't.  It was much more of a general statement.

I don't recall Dean saying Sam needed a chaperone.  (Not saying he didn't, I just don't recall what episode it happened in).  it was Sam who interpreted Dean's actions as thinking he needed a chaperone.  Offering to stay and help is not automatically thinking the person isn't capable. 

That's something Sam needs to learn.  I've seen people say Dean needs to learn to ask for help, but I find this is one of Sam's biggest flaws.  he thinks he has to do everything by himself or thinks only he can do it and more often than not ends up in trouble because of it.

I don't blame Sam for Benny deciding to stay behind, but I do think Sam needs to stop thinking that because someone wants to help it doesn't automatically mean, they think you can't do it.  If Sam accepted Dean's offer to help with the 2nd trial, Dean could have lead them out.  But Sam declared "I have to do this solo" and then once again he needed someone to bail him out.  Same with the going into the cage in s11.  It was all about Sam being God's chosen and he didn't want to hear otherwise.  He allowed Rowena to bully him, and once again people had to save him.

When your hallcinating, sorry, you don't trust that person.  Under any circumstances. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, my point was, I think he should have just picked a side.  Let it go and move on.  Or Not let it go and literally move on.

That's what I kept saying during S8. I mean, I get it, Dean was at war for a year and what kept him alive was thinking of home and how great it would be to get back to his regular life only to come home to find the house sold, his job gone and his friends and family had moved on without him. It's pretty crushing when you have all these plans that turn out to be just grand illusions. But at some point, Dean needed to move on in one way or another. Either kick Sam to the curb or stop kicking Sam because it wasn't Sam's fault what kept Dean alive all those months wasn't real. 

But, I also think Sam had his head up his ass too and needed to pick a side. He'd had a plan with Amelia that didn't work out and his heart wasn't in hunting anymore. He needed to buck up and commit or walk away, because it wasn't Dean's fault that Sam's normal life didn't work out.

So, as always, it goes two ways with me. They both needed to pick a side and live with it, this getting into the car together only to pick at each other was doing neither of them any favors and it sure wasn't helping with the job.

Ugh, stupid Era of the Petty Little Jerks.

[Reganne]

50 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

 

As for Sam`s viewpoint. In the penultimate episode of Season 4 we go literally in Sam`s head and explore what he thinks. And the figure of his mother? Calls Dean weak and blows smoke up Sam`s ass. So episodes that show me what Sam truly thinks usually show me that he thinks THAT.

 

The figure of little Sam in Sam's head says how disappointed he is in Sam and asks him how he could do this to him.  The figure of Dean in Sam's head of hallucinations calls him a monster and says that he's nothing to him and has always been a monster.  Also does this mean he thinks he's stronger in general or only when he is on demon blood?  Because Sam says that the demon blood made him feel stronger which means that without the Demon blood, Sam feels weaker.  If he needed the demon blood to feel strong, that doesn't really show us how strong Sam actually thinks he is without it.  

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I think the narrative very clearly showed us a Dean out of his mind frantic with worry.  It showed that very clearly to me anyway. 

 

This^ is very true and something I've commented on many times in my posts.  I don't know if it's Jensen or the writing or what... but we get Dean (warts and all).

Sam we don't get.  Sam is often Not!Sam or off involved in some secrets & lies we don't really understand.  We're rarely privy to his motivations.  He's tortured by the BMOL and witness to their inefficiency... and yet says 'sign me up, I'll work on Dean' when he's shown  shiny gizmos.

At the end of season 5 yes.  The end of season 7 didn't give us the narrative to show how Sam felt about the situation.  I think it has more to do with the writing.  The writers gave Dean the chance to ask "What about Sam?" at the end of season 5 in his speech to Cas.  Sam got to stand all by himself for a minute maybe.  The end.

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If Sam's defining characteristic is supposed to be Empathy, one would think he might have some for his brother. 

  Reveal hidden contents

That's why I dislike that spoiler that says Sam's going to back down the road of you hate Jack, you hate me.  Its just more feeding Sam's ego.  Because now Dean has to tell him once again how brave and special he is.   I also feel like it why Dabb is going the whole Dean doesn't look for Mary route.  I think the whole, "he's too broken" is Jensen's spin, and Dabb is doing it to whitewash Sam to Dean will apologize once again for not being more understanding to Sam.

Supposed to be, being the operative words for me.  I've never particularly thought Sam's 'empathy' was anything more than surface level.  Sure, he's great at understanding how others feel when they directly relate to him, but the rest of the time?  Not so much for me.  Every VotW he has bonded with has been a reflection of him in some way and what he's personally going through at the time, and the same is true of any 'good monsters' he wants to save.  It comes off as very selfish to me at times, most notably in the early seasons, but even as late as season 12, I thought the same thing with the girl in Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell.  I've always thought Dean's empathy, and yes, he does have it despite Sam getting all of the praise, is more well-rounded and for the sake of the other person rather than himself.  And as for Dean being portrayed as 'a born killer,' I think his take on the the family business says everything.  'Saving people and hunting things,' Saving people comes first.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[trxr4kids]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not sure why you've brought up the brothers respective time in hell.? As I understood it, we have been discussing the trauma of Dean's time in purgatory and the trauma of Sam having a mental breakdown at the end of season seven

I don't recall the show actually saying Sam had a breakdown but assuming he did I would say it was because of his hell trauma which had been an ongoing issue as you would expect but honestly who knows what the show was saying. I legitimately kept waiting for the big reveal of what was wrong with Sam in season 8 that never came I like to pretend that Sam hallucinated all of it including most of season 9.

 

2 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Frankly, I think we are at a standoff here. Dean should not be expected to be more understanding because of his psychological issues. Fine. So Sam also should not be expected to be more understanding because of his psychological issues. Agreed?

Absolutely agreed :)

 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I didn't mean that it would have been sane of Dean to let it go.  I meant that it was sane of Sam not to look for a dead guy.  But, my point was, I think he should have just picked a side.  Let it go and move on.  Or Not let it go and literally move on

Oh gotcha!

 

45 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, as always, it goes two ways with me. They both needed to pick a side and live with it, this getting into the car together only to pick at each other was doing neither of them any favors and it sure wasn't helping with the job.

Ugh, stupid Era of the Petty Little Jerks.

I agree 100% Just because season 8 Sam was so heinous to me doesn't mean Dean was a ball of sunshine either. I was hoping that era was truly dead and gone but certain interviews have me worried we may be looking at the sequel.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I was hoping that era was truly dead and gone but certain interviews have me worried we may be looking at the sequel.

Yeah, I had the same thought when I read that certain comment too. I recall there being a lot of the same comments back in S8. Hopefully, it's just me being gun shy and the noise is really just a car backfiring. I don't think I can take a Petty Little Jerks sequel. That straw was pretty heavy the last time, it might just break this camel's back if piled on again. ;)

Edited July 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

 

I disagree.  Dean tried to be sympathetic to Sam. He listened to Sam about why he was with Ruby.  When he found out they were sleeping together, his only reaction was TMI.  He gave Ruby multiple chances.  It was when she proved untrustworthy that Dean started to question.  He even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying to him.  To which Sam lied.  I'm not sure what more Dean could have done here.  Sam continued to lie and go behind Dean's back.  As for Sam's showing empathy, he did that right up until Dean confessed.  I don't think it was a coincidence that Dean went back to Ruby almost immediately after Dean admitted he broke in hell.

Sam telling Dean he was stronger, smarter and Dean was holding him back, and throwing the words boo hoo at him.  IMO, that's not empathy.  It felt like Sam used that as an excuse to go back to Ruby. 

 

I don't recall Dean saying Sam needed a chaperone.  (Not saying he didn't, I just don't recall what episode it happened in).  it was Sam who interpreted Dean's actions as thinking he needed a chaperone.  Offering to stay and help is not automatically thinking the person isn't capable. 

That's something Sam needs to learn.  I've seen people say Dean needs to learn to ask for help, but I find this is one of Sam's biggest flaws.  he thinks he has to do everything by himself or thinks only he can do it and more often than not ends up in trouble because of it.

 

When Dean found out about Sam exercising demons with his mind, he punched him in the face and I don't think that happened solely because Sam was keeping it from him.  Dean also said that if he didn't know Sam, he would want to hunt him.  Granted, I do think Dean was scared of what his brother was becoming and this affected his behaviour, but I can see why this would make Sam weary of sharing anything else with Dean considering this was before Dean found out about him drinking demon blood.

 

Dean said the chaperone thing in sacrifice.  Sam overheard Dean saying to Cas "If anyone needs a chaperone while doing the heavy lifting, it's Sam".  That's why he brought the chaperone quote up in the church.  I think it was more the way it was being said.  It wasn't said in a "I need to help my brother" or "I think my brother needs my help".  He was saying Sam wasn't strong enough to do it on his own and it was said in a more generalized way.  Like it could apply to various situations and not just the trials.  Yes, sometimes people need help, but this quote comes off as more of a Sam can't handle the heavy lifting on his own.  

 

I think Dean has always thought of Sam as the little brother he needs to protect and look after.... even when Sam is an adult himself.  You don't hold this kind of constant mentality towards an individual that you think is super strong and capable.  When he goes hunting with Cas in 'Free to be you and Me', Dean is shown to be relieved because he doesn't have to worry about Sam.  He said something about how much time he spends worrying about him.  Apart from when Sam is on demon blood, I don't get the impression that Sam thinks he stronger than Dean.  Sam needed the demon blood to feel strong.   

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

Well, and so what if he's a born killer? We have seen time and time again that that is not who Dean (or Sam, for that matter) chooses to be.  For Dean "hunting things. Saving people" is his mantra. His world view.  I don't know that he'd be rushing to the West Coast to help after a devastating earthquake emanating from the Cascadia Fault, but if he were there when it hit, he'd be the one refusing to leave off helping survivors until the last nanosecond.

Dean's mantra is literally the opposite of the bolded part. It was Dean who coined, in the 2nd episode of the entire series, Wendigo.  "Saving people, hunting things, the family business".  He put the saving people AHEAD of hunting things.  Dean was the one who said it TO SAM, when Sam wanted to put finding John in order to kill the YED, over  saving the other people. Dean was the first person to rush headlong into the putting HIMSELF into harms way to save people. And he has done this consistently throughout the show for 12 seasons and even in s10, when he was succumbing to the Mark again, he was saving people.  

Are you thinking of Dean in s11 in the premiere or maybe it was 11.2, when Dean wanted to save the baby that he didn't yet know was actually the manifestation of the Darkness and to save Cas and the Sam had a stupid speech about the bumper sticker as though Dean had somehow stopped saving people?

Dean saves who he can save. I don't understand what you are saying here. Dean's history is the opposite of what you are suggesting.

Edited July 29, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean saves who he can save. I don't understand what you are saying here. Dean's history is the opposite of what you are suggesting.

It seems to me @mertensia is saying Dean isn't a killer. That just because a couple hack writers think that, what we've seen on screen time and time again is Dean is the opposite of that. Dean's motto is saving people, not killing things. Basically, what she's saying is the same thing you're saying, IMO.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

That just because a couple hack writers think that

Problem is, the hack writers have the power to do whatever the hell they want with the character. 

Quote

I was hoping that era was truly dead and gone but certain interviews have me worried we may be looking at the sequel.

The only reason to write that storyline is to bring the issues back up again and have Dean do the grovelling and apologizing.

And everything I read about Sam is implying to me that he will be super-full of it, only it will presented like the greatest thing ever and not remotely like a flaw.    

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It seems to me @mertensia is saying Dean isn't a killer. That just because a couple hack writers think that, what we've seen on screen time and time again is Dean is the opposite of that. Dean's motto is saving people, not killing things. Basically, what she's saying is the same thing you're saying, IMO.

Okay , thank you because I was not getting that at all.  I didn't read it that way. I guess my reading comprehension was failing this early. Apologies to @mertensia for not comprehending this upon first reading.

[CluelessDrifter]

On 7/29/2017 at 4:07 PM, Reganne said:

When Dean found out about Sam exercising demons with his mind, he punched him in the face and I don't think that happened solely because Sam was keeping it from him.  Dean also said that if he didn't know Sam, he would want to hunt him.  Granted, I do think Dean was scared of what his brother was becoming and this affected his behaviour, but I can see why this would make Sam weary of sharing anything else with Dean considering this was before Dean found out about him drinking demon blood.

The second after they were reunited, Sam lied about Ruby being Kathy, Kristy, whatever.  Also, if Season 4 were the start of the show, Dean punching Sam and saying he would hunt Sam if he didn't know him, might seem like an overreaction, but when I take into account all that happened in the first three seasons, I can see why it happens.  You have Dean being told by John he either has to save Sam or kill him.  You have Sam fearing going dark side and making Dean promise to kill him if he does.  You have Sam being colder and more violent after he's brought back.  You have them being told that Sam was supposed to lead the demon army that was let out of the devil's gate and that he was a big enough threat to Lilith leading that army that she targeted him even though Sam had no interest in leading said demons.  You have one of Dean's last requests being that Sam carry on by hunting the way Dean and their Dad taught him, not with his powers, and Sam agreeing to said request.

Then Dean comes back, and the first thing Sam does is lie to him about who the girl was, lie about Ruby and using his powers when Dean asks him point blank if Sam's seen her or been using his 'freaky ESP stuff', sneak out one of Dean's first nights back to go 'train' with Ruby, which is why Sam wasn't there when the motel room explodes and Bobby and Dean summon Castiel (a time when Dean would have felt especially under attack, because as far as he knew, he was a fugitive of Hell, and it was coming for him), and then Sam continued to sneak out in the middle of night to 'train' with Ruby until Cas clued Dean in on it.  To me, Dean's response was both to Sam's lying and what Sam was doing in equal measure, because they go hand in hand, and Dean punching Sam didn't make Sam not share what he was doing with Dean after that.  Sam was hiding it from the moment Dean came back.

Edited August 1, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Reganne]

4 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

  Sam was hiding it from the moment Dean came back.

Sam hid it from Dean because he was afraid of how he would respond.  He knew Dean wouldn't approve of it. 

[CluelessDrifter]

Just now, Reganne said:

Sam hid it from Dean because he was afraid of how he would respond.  He knew Dean wouldn't approve of it. 

Sam hid it from Dean, because he knew what he was doing was wrong, especially given their history.  IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Then Dean comes back, and the first thing Sam does is lie to him about who the girl was, lie about Ruby and using his powers when Dean asks him point blank if Sam's seen her or been using his 'freaky ESP stuff', sneak out one of Dean's first nights back to go 'train' with Ruby, which is why Sam wasn't there when the motel room explodes and Bobby and Dean summon Castiel (a time when Dean would have felt especially under attack, because as far as he knew, he was a fugitive of Hell, and it was coming for him), and then Sam continued to sneak out in the middle of night to 'train' with Ruby until Cas clued Dean in on it.

Well, I don't think Sam snuck out to "train" with Ruby. They confronted the demons earlier and Sam wanted to take them on, Dean didn't. Sam went back to the diner to take care of the demons. Granted Sam snuck out and lied to Dean where he was when Dean called, but Dean also lied to Sam about what happened in the motel room and what Bobby and Dean were going to do. Because, earlier, Dean wanted to summon the thing and find out what was after him and Sam didn't.

So, to me, they both were lying and sneaking around behind each other's backs from the get-go. Neither of them wanted to fill the other in on what they had been doing when they were apart. Dean didn't want Sam to know what he'd done in Hell anymore than Sam wanted Dean to know what he'd been doing with Ruby.

[Wayward Son]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

but was it ever really stated that Sam had a mental breakdown?  

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

I don't recall the show actually saying Sam had a breakdown but assuming he did I would say it was because of his hell trauma which had been an ongoing issue as you would expect but honestly who knows what the show was saying. 

No, I don't believe the show ever had Sam bluntly utter the words "I had a mental breakdown". However, it was pretty clearly shown to be the case in Hunteri Heroici. The episode is spent exploring Sam's initial reaction to the "death" of Dean at the end of season seven and highlighting how broken up over it he was. The episode concludes with Sam relating to Fred and his mental break down by discussing how he knows it is too hard to go on and you just want to escape. There was clearly meant to be a parallel between Fred's breakdown and Sam's breakdown at the end of s7.

 

Unfortunately, many viewers failed to pick up on this and instead decided to rely on the theory posited by Dean that Sam knowingly abandoned him and went off with Amelia instead of the more nuanced he believed Dean to be dead and couldn't cope. This episode is a prime example of why I disagree with those who complain about how the writers have "babied us" and lay on the parallels etc too thick in other episodes. Quite clearly many viewers can't pick up on subtle storytelling and need the blunt "I had a mental breakdown" approach to storyline. 

 

I also consider Dean to be far from a reliable witness here. He is the guy who has a known history for distorting facts, so he can have an excuse to engage in endless melodramatic whining and whinging. Just look at the fuss he made of the every day act of Sam choosing to go to College. In Lucifer Rising he even tried to use this as evidence Sam wasn't to be trusted and never wanted to be a part of the family. So really Dean turning Sam's mental breakdown into being all about him and how he is a victim is hardly new. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ahrtee]

Ah, so many posts to answer (see what happens when I take a night off?  

I'll not trying to insult any one (or even any character), so please don't take any of this as an attack but just *my* perspective and thoughts:

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

Well, and so what if he's a born killer? 

Well, if it's in his DNA, it would be in Sam's too, wouldn't it?  They share the same DNA; and if anything, the demon blood should have made *Sam* into the "born killer" but they always stressed his empathy and faith. 

And if it was in their DNA, where did it come from?  I wouldn't think the Winchester side--not after seeing Henry and learning about multiple generations of MoL.  And while the Campbell side were hunters for multiple generations, it seemed to me that most of them were pretty pragmatic rather than rabid about hunting (and most were married/had families and didn't even seem in the same ballpark as the crazy hunters John hung around with.)  

 

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I didn't mean that it would have been sane of Dean to let it go.  I meant that it was sane of Sam not to look for a dead guy.  

 

Dean was sleeping.  Was Sam supposed to creepily watch him? Sam wanted info from the demon using the secret ways that Dean didn't know about.  So, I wouldn't really call that leaving Dean to be with Ruby.  

One thing that struck me in reading this whole mess of posts in one sitting was similarities through the seasons.  I can compare it being "sane" of Sam not to look for Dean with Soulless Sam when Dean was abducted by fairies:  he thought about it logically, decided there was nothing he could do (at least at the moment) and slept with the "hippie chick." (Not that I'm comparing her to Amelia) :)  Everyone thought that showed how being soulless took away his empathy, but it also (as he pointed out several times throughout that arc) made him act out of pure logic and not emotion, so it made him a better hunter.  But season 8 Sam didn't come across as sane or making a logical decision, and the point people seem to be making is that he was driven by despair, not logic.  So I don't think "sane" enters into it.  And, as others have pointed out, there was no sane/logical reason for him to toss his phones and ignore Kevin without at least giving Garth or someone the head's up.  

The second part of this quote IMO mirrors Dean with Benny to some extent.  Think about it:  Sam has made friends with a demon, something he knows Dean would hate. He doesn't tell Dean that he's seeing her.  He sneaks off to be with her to learn more about using his powers, lies about it, and, when confronted, insists that she's "good" and is helping him and wants Dean to trust her too.  Dean is wary and refuses to trust her completely but works with her grudgingly.

Dean has made friends with a vampire, and knows that Sam would hate it.  He doesn't tell Sam that he has this new friend, sneaks off to be with Benny when he calls for help; when confronted insists that he's "good" and wants Sam not to kill him.  Sam never tries to trust him, sets a hunter to follow him to come up with evidence against him.  Differences:  Benny is not pretending to help them, the way Ruby was.  He wasn't asking them to do anything that went against their principles (except not kill him).  As a matter of fact, he only calls Dean when *he* needs help.  Dean isn't asking Sam to trust him and follow his advice, but just not to kill him until he has proof that he's done something wrong.  

I know a lot of bitterness has come about because Benny eventually turned out to really be good and Ruby turned out bad.  I don't think it has anything to with Sam "always having to be wrong" and Dean always right.  Both fit the needs and context of the story they wanted to tell.  YMMV. 

 

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

I also see complaints about Sam calling Dean weak while on demon blood, but no one seems to have a problem with Dean saying "If Anyone needs a chaperone to do the heavy lifting it's Sam."  Isn't this also a way of saying Sam is weak or he needs someone to do the bulk of the work.  Now I am quite aware that Sam was going through the trials at the time Dean said this and at times he appeared physically exhausted. However, Sam's physical state wasn't brought up in the statement when Dean said point blank that Sam needs a chaperone.  It was stated as a general statement.  Maybe I could see it being taken in a different way if Dean were to have added "In his condition" or "with what the trials have been doing to him physically" but he didn't.  It was much more of a general statement.  

I think you need to take this statement *in context*.  Dean NEVER said that about Sam at any other time either before or after.  I think it's pretty clear that it was meant in this case only and there would be no need to qualify it with "because he's so worn out from the Trials."  It seemed pretty obvious that he was sick/physically weak.

However, Dean's "weakness" has always been depicted as emotional, not physical--not only in season 4 with his hell trauma, but as early as Asylum, where whammied-Sam accused Dean of being "pathetic" and never thinking for himself, and continued every time Sam was under some external influence.  But in the real world (much less the hunter world), it's always more acceptable to be physically weak than mentally/emotionally, so that charge of emotional weakness is much more damning.  

 

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Absolutely.  And, the annoying thing is it would have been so easy to fix by having Crowley kidnap Kevin after Sam took Kevin back home or something.  Or, had Sam look for him for a couple of weeks and have Crowley fool him into thinking he had killed Kevin because he got what he needed, or something.  Neither would have largely affected the story in any other way besides not making Sam look like the biggest jerk on the planet.  Unless that's what they were going for.

 

As other have pointed out, all he had to do was say, "I looked.  And then I couldn't any more and I ran," or call Garth and say "Kevin's in trouble.  I can't help right now.  Can you take over?"  

I actually wrote a fanfic at the time that had Sam calling Jody to help.  Their thought process: 'OK, standing next to Leviathan.  Plenty of goo left but no body parts, therefore they weren't just exploded but probably transported somewhere.  Where would a monster go after death?  Aha--Purgatory!'  And then Sam would realize that they needed an eclipse to open the door again.  (I even looked up and found the next eclipse was a year later, so that would have given Sam a timeframe, and a reason for the gap, which he could have spent (if they really wanted) settling down while planning how to get Dean out when the time came.)  

I have other issues with Sam and his behavior that year, but IA that there was no excuse for the writers for that one.

 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's what I kept saying during S8. I mean, I get it, Dean was at war for a year and what kept him alive was thinking of home and how great it would be to get back to his regular life only to come home to find the house sold, his job gone and his friends and family had moved on without him. It's pretty crushing when you have all these plans that turn out to be just grand illusions. But at some point, Dean needed to move on in one way or another. Either kick Sam to the curb or stop kicking Sam because it wasn't Sam's fault what kept Dean alive all those months wasn't real. 

But, I also think Sam had his head up his ass too and needed to pick a side. He'd had a plan with Amelia that didn't work out and his heart wasn't in hunting anymore. He needed to buck up and commit or walk away, because it wasn't Dean's fault that Sam's normal life didn't work out.

So, as always, it goes two ways with me. They both needed to pick a side and live with it, this getting into the car together only to pick at each other was doing neither of them any favors and it sure wasn't helping with the job.

Ugh, stupid Era of the Petty Little Jerks.

This.  In the beginning, you could tell that they really *wanted* to be with each other (for whatever reasons) and so they wanted to work through their disagreements.  But somewhere (I think about season 7) the relationship became toxic, and like they were staying together to punish to other.  (Even in season 4/5, they were still trying to work things out)  But when Sam gives Dean an ultimatum about "we'll just be hunting together, not brothers," and Dean accepts it meekly, well, that for me was the time to say, "you know what?  I can find other hunting partners.  What I want is my brother."  And all the bitter fights and walking away and both veiled and direct insults were not intended to work things out and make them better, but just to hurt the other one, and (as we've seen) haven't been forgotten or forgiven by either.  So let the writers get them to have it out in one big brawl and either hug it out or split permanently.  Remember, even Bobby and Rufus split many years ago, and "brother acts are tough."

 

4 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

When Dean found out about Sam exercising demons with his mind, he punched him in the face and I don't think that happened solely because Sam was keeping it from him.  Dean also said that if he didn't know Sam, he would want to hunt him.

(Sorry, the quote was from @Reganne but I took it from Clueless Drifter's answer).  Dean often reacted to frustration with violence (remember him punching the hospital directory when they wanted him to donate Bobby's organs?)  This one was aimed directly at Sam and not the wall because he really did want to shake him up--and I'm pretty sure he pulled his punch because Sam was still standing.  But the main reason was frustration and fear--because Cas (and by implication, the angels and God himself) didn't want him to use his powers. At that point in the story, they both believed that angels were good and on their side. so sure, it would scare him that his brother was not only doing something the angels specifically forbade but was working with a demon to do it.  

[Reganne]

7 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Sam hid it from Dean, because he knew what he was doing was wrong, especially given their history.  IMO.

Even if he did know what he was doing was wrong, I think he thought the ends justified the means.  It's a shame the show never divulged into Sam's point of view there.  But I really believe that Sam thought his powers could be used for good.  To stop Lilith and then later on maybe even the apocalypse.  He knew Dean would never approve of Sam using his powers like that though.  Hence the lying.

[CluelessDrifter]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I don't think Sam snuck out to "train" with Ruby. They confronted the demons earlier and Sam wanted to take them on, Dean didn't. Sam went back to the diner to take care of the demons. Granted Sam snuck out and lied to Dean where he was when Dean called, but Dean also lied to Sam about what happened in the motel room and what Bobby and Dean were going to do. Because, earlier, Dean wanted to summon the thing and find out what was after him and Sam didn't.

So, to me, they both were lying and sneaking around behind each other's backs from the get-go. Neither of them wanted to fill the other in on what they had been doing when they were apart. Dean didn't want Sam to know what he'd done in Hell anymore than Sam wanted Dean to know what he'd been doing with Ruby.

Maybe you could say it wasn't training the first time if you don't think every time he used his powers that he was training for Lilith (which I do), and the point for me is that Sam wasn't there when Dean was at his most vulnerable.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Unfortunately, many viewers failed to pick up on this and instead decided to rely on the theory posited by Dean that Sam knowingly abandoned him and went off with Amelia instead of the more nuanced he believed Dean to be dead and couldn't cope. This episode is a prime example of why I disagree with those who complain about how the writers have "babied us" and lay on the parallels etc too thick in other episodes. Quite clearly many viewers can't pick up on subtle storytelling and need the blunt "I had a mental breakdown" approach to storyline. 

Oh, I`m sure they meant to portray Sam as this wonderfully noble, mature guy during early Season 8 and Dean as the big meanie who was hurt over nothing. They said as much during Comic Con before this Season.

This doesn`t mean it translated well via nuanced writing or acting. Jared was all proudly declaring Sam was right in those Comic con interviews and that`s how he played it on the show. And the writers were just tone-deaf thinking that would come across as sympathetic. 

If they wanted me to swallow any breakdown-excuse AFTER the fact, well, that was too later either way. If the writing and acting can`t show that to me from the start. And nope, the writing can not be so subtle as that it isn`t there and then they can pull it out of their asses and claim it was. Sorry, not buying that.

Quote

He is the guy who has a known history for distorting facts, so he can have an excuse to engage in endless melodramatic whining and whinging. Just look at the fuss he made of the very every day act of Sam choosing to go to College. In Lucifer Rising he even tried to use this as evidence Sam was evil and never wanted to be a part of the family. So really Dean turning Sam's mental breakdown into being all about him is hardly new. 

Switch the characters around and this is where I am at.

Dean just comes back and has Sam tell him point blank "yeah, whatthefuckever, I had such a good thing going on while you were gone". That he dared be hurt by it is hardly making it about himself. 

Whereas Sam surely made it all about himself that Dean had to rely on someone else to escape from Purgatory. When Sam had no interest in the job in the first place. Because surely, Dean should have rather died in Purgatory than gravely insult Sam`s ego by "turning to a vampire". 

 

Sam is someone who changes his mind on things all the time when they didn`t work out like he wanted them to. In the Pilot he is proudly declaring how he is out of the lifestyle, is making his own decisions now and Jessica doesn`t need to know anything - HIS decision btw. 

Then in the ghost truck episode when he finds out Dean told his girlfriend, Sam whines about how he lied to Jessica for a year and a half. What? Did anyone hold a gun to your head and make you do that, Sam? I thought it was your freaking decision. Can`t blame Dean for it.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Reganne]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

 

 

I think you need to take this statement *in context*.  Dean NEVER said that about Sam at any other time either before or after.  I think it's pretty clear that it was meant in this case only and there would be no need to qualify it with "because he's so worn out from the Trials."  It seemed pretty obvious that he was sick/physically weak.

However, Dean's "weakness" has always been depicted as emotional, not physical--not only in season 4 with his hell trauma, but as early as Asylum, where whammied-Sam accused Dean of being "pathetic" and never thinking for himself, and continued every time Sam was under some external influence.  But in the real world (much less the hunter world), it's always more acceptable to be physically weak than mentally/emotionally, so that charge of emotional weakness is much more damning.  

 

 

 

(Sorry, the quote was from @Reganne but I took it from Clueless Drifter's answer).  Dean often reacted to frustration with violence (remember him punching the hospital directory when they wanted him to donate Bobby's organs?)  This one was aimed directly at Sam and not the wall because he really did want to shake him up--and I'm pretty sure he pulled his punch because Sam was still standing.  But the main reason was frustration and fear--because Cas (and by implication, the angels and God himself) didn't want him to use his powers. At that point in the story, they both believed that angels were good and on their side. so sure, it would scare him that his brother was not only doing something the angels specifically forbade but was working with a demon to do it.  

Dean never said that about Sam at any other time, but he acts that way with how he has to protect Sam.  Look after his little brother.  Why was Dean relieved to be hunting with Cas in 'Free to be you and me'? Because he didn't have to worry about Sam anymore?  That type of behaviour isn't something that you display when you view someone as your equal or someone as a strong individual.  The thought that they always need protecting.

 

Aside from season 4, I don't recall Sam calling Dean weak.  Calling someone pathetic for following their dads orders is something completely different.  In the context of season 4, Sam was saying Dean was too weak to go after Lilith because he believed he was the one who could kill Lilith and he had the powers to do so.  When Dean had the mark of Cain, he purposely led Sam away from Abaddon so he could kill her.   Why?  Because... although he didn't say it... Dean believed he was the one with the power to destroy Abaddon and not Sam.  

 

And yes, Dean does react with violence to frustration.  I've already pointed out that Dean was worried for his brother and what exactly these powers would bring about with him.  However, those types of reactions are most likely the very reason why Sam didn't tell him in the first place.... and the reason why he kept more things from him for the rest of the season.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Reganne

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I also consider Dean to be far from a reliable witness here. He is the guy who has a known history for distorting facts, so he can have an excuse to engage in endless melodramatic whining and whinging. Just look at the fuss he made of the every day act of Sam choosing to go to College. In Lucifer Rising he even tried to use this as evidence Sam wasn't to be trusted and never wanted to be a part of the family. So really Dean turning Sam's mental breakdown into being all about him and how he is a victim is hardly new. 

Agree to disagree, politely but very firmly (mostly for the terminology).

I wish we had a "thumbs-down" button for posts we disagree with but don't feel like debating.  

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, I`m sure they meant to portray Sam as this wonderfully noble, mature guy during early Season 8 and Dean as the big meanie who was hurt over nothing. 

I'm not sure where exactly you're getting the "noble" adjective from my description of Sam. Highlighting that he has a breaking point does not boost him up to be a noble Gary Stu. In fact it does quite the opposite. It shows that Sam is human and has a breaking point like everyone else. Sam and his mental health are not invincible. 

[CluelessDrifter]

5 hours ago, Reganne said:

Even if he did know what he was doing was wrong, I think he thought the ends justified the means.  It's a shame the show never divulged into Sam's point of view there.  But I really believe that Sam thought his powers could be used for good.  To stop Lilith and then later on maybe even the apocalypse.  He knew Dean would never approve of Sam using his powers like that though.  Hence the lying.

Sam absolutely thinks the ends justify the means and that the road to get there doesn't matter.  It's one of his character traits.  And Dean wouldn't approve of Sam using his powers, because as I said, prior to season 4, they both feared Sam's powers would make him go dark, exactly the way Sam did.  His black eyes when he killed Lilith were a physical representation of the monster Sam became throughout the course of the season to achieve his ends.

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Even if he did know what he was doing was wrong, I think he thought the ends justified the means.  It's a shame the show never divulged into Sam's point of view there.  But I really believe that Sam thought his powers could be used for good.  To stop Lilith and then later on maybe even the apocalypse.  He knew Dean would never approve of Sam using his powers like that though.  Hence the lying.

But if Sam really believed he was doing good and his powers would be good, why did it matter what Dean thought? Don't get me wrong, I believe Sam convinced himself he was doing good in order to keep drinking the demon blood, but that's addiction. I think, deep down, Sam was ashamed of what he was doing with Ruby and that's why he lied to Dean about it. He knew it was wrong, but couldn't stop himself.

Don't get me wrong, I understand how Sam got there, I just don't think what he believed was the truth of the matter.

13 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Maybe you could say it wasn't training the first time if you don't think every time he used his powers that he was training for Lilith (which I do), and the point for me is that Sam wasn't there when Dean was at his most vulnerable.

Right, as I said, he lied. But, Dean also lied too and that's why Sam wasn't at the summoning. My point being, they both lied and made mistakes for their own reasons and have both not been there for each other when they were most vulnerable. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Agree to disagree, politely but very firmly (mostly for the terminology).

I wish we had a "thumbs-down" button for posts we disagree with but don't feel like debating.  

I'm happy enough to agree to disagree. I find it interesting there was no talk of a "thumbs down" for posts from users who talk about Sam in equally unflattering terms. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Agree to disagree, politely but very firmly (mostly for the terminology).

I wish we had a "thumbs-down" button for posts we disagree with but don't feel like debating.  

That would be helpful. Offering an alternative point of view sometimes seems pointless when the other party has clear disdain for the character that is being discussed IMO.

[CluelessDrifter]

23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I also consider Dean to be far from a reliable witness here. He is the guy who has a known history for distorting facts, so he can have an excuse to engage in endless melodramatic whining and whinging. Just look at the fuss he made of the every day act of Sam choosing to go to College. In Lucifer Rising he even tried to use this as evidence Sam wasn't to be trusted and never wanted to be a part of the family. So really Dean turning Sam's mental breakdown into being all about him and how he is a victim is hardly new. 

Judging by Sam's behavior in the pilot, I would say that Sam didn't want to be a part of their family anymore when he was away at college.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Judging by Sam's behavior in the pilot, I would say that Sam didn't want to be a part of their family anymore when he was away at college.

As Sam rightly pointed out, in Salvation I think, he was only going off to college like any other 18 year old. It was John who closed that door by telling him not to come back and Dean who chose to standby and allow that to happen. I hardly think it's unreasonable that Sam chose to disassociate himself from the family that chose to disown him. A lesser man would have told Dean to go away and find John himself under those circumstances. The fact Sam actually agreed to help showed there was still some lingering love there IMO. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[CluelessDrifter]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right, as I said, he lied. But, Dean also lied too and that's why Sam wasn't at the summoning. My point being, they both lied and made mistakes for their own reasons and have both not been there for each other when they were most vulnerable. 

I wasn't talking about the summoning being when Dean was at his most vulnerable.  I was talking about Dean being asleep for possibly the first time since he'd gotten out of Hell.  At that point, the why and how of his getting out of Hell were unclear and meant Dean could be dragged back at any moment, and yes, Dean lied about what he and Bobby were doing, but he definitely told Sam what he and Bobby had done as soon as the summoning was over.

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
Grammar for clarity

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Judging by Sam's behavior in the pilot, I would say that Sam didn't want to be a part of their family anymore when he was away at college.

Well, he had a framed picture of his parents, Dean was apparently persona non grata even more than John.

What I found hilarious was this scene where Sam proudly declares whatever Dean has to say, he can say in front of Jessica, only to send her from the room five seconds later when it was clear the topic of discussion would turn to all the things Sam didn`t want her to know. What the hell did he think would come up?   

[MysteryGuest]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

No, I don't believe the show ever had Sam bluntly utter the words "I had a mental breakdown". However, it was pretty clearly shown to be the case in Hunteri Heroici. The episode is spent exploring Sam's initial reaction to the "death" of Dean at the end of season seven and highlighting how broken up over it he was. The episode concludes with Sam relating to Fred and his mental break down by discussing how he knows it is too hard to go on and you just want to escape. There was clearly meant to be a parallel between Fred's breakdown and Sam's breakdown at the end of s7.

Unfortunately, many viewers failed to pick up on this and instead decided to rely on the theory posited by Dean that Sam knowingly abandoned him and went off with Amelia instead of the more nuanced he believed Dean to be dead and couldn't cope. This episode is a prime example of why I disagree with those who complain about how the writers have "babied us" and lay on the parallels etc too thick in other episodes. Quite clearly many viewers can't pick up on subtle storytelling and need the blunt "I had a mental breakdown" approach to storyline.

When you have to add the nuance in after the fact, it's obviously not working.  And I never expected Sam to say "I had a breakdown".  But he absolutely could have said something a bit more explanatory to a brother who just went through what Dean went through for a year.  Saying what he did made him look like a self-centered asshole.  And Sam had an entire year of doing whatever he wanted, hanging with Amelia, etc., to at least partially recover from whatever trauma Dean's death had on him.  And if he was that traumatized, why wasn't he at least happier to see him back?  

[catrox14]

Not to get too off topic here  I might be misremembering but I think there was discussion about down votes and I think it was decidit would make the community unnecessarily combative.

Personally, I don't consider an upvote necessarily an endorsement of every word of a post.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

When you have to add the nuance in after the fact, it's obviously not working.  And I never expected Sam to say "I had a breakdown".  But he absolutely could have said something a bit more explanatory to a brother who just went through what Dean went through for a year.  Saying what he did made him look like a self-centered asshole.  And Sam had an entire year of doing whatever he wanted, hanging with Amelia, etc., to at least partially recover from whatever trauma Dean's death had on him.  And if he was that traumatized, why wasn't he at least happier to see him back?  

I need to rewatch the opener of eight, but as I remember it he was happy to see Dean alive. He pulled Dean in for a hug exclaiming "you're frigging alive" (again supporting the belief that he thought Dean was dead) in a delighted manner. It was when Dean went on the attack and started criticising his choices in the past year, without consideration of why Sam acted the way he did, that Sam grew more defensive and closed off.

[ahrtee]

39 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

As Sam rightly pointed out, in Salvation I think, he was only going off to college like any other 18 year old. It was John who closed that door by telling him not to come back and Dean who chose to standby and allow that to happen. I hardly think it's unreasonable that Sam chose to disassociate himself from the family that chose to disown him. A lesser man would have told Dean to go away and find John himself under those circumstances. The fact Sam actually agreed to help showed there was still some lingering love there IMO. 

*sigh*  John told him to stay gone because he was worried about Sam being in danger from Azazel and (being John, and keeping things on a "need to know" basis) didn't know how to say anything except a threat.  (And the danger was very real, and turned out to be true.)  

We don't know *what* Dean did or didn't do.  Most info comes from fanon, not canon, which never said Dean "stood by and allowed it to happen."  Even so, both John and Dean "swung by" Stanford every so often to check up on Sam and make sure he was safe.   And apparently Sam and Dean kept in touch at least for the first year (since Dean said he hadn't bothered him in "almost two years.")  

But IA (as I said before) that for Dean's sanity, it would have been better for him to divorce himself from both bullheaded idiots and take off on his own or find another hunting partner.  But, given his upbringing and personality, he couldn't do that (and there wouldn't be a show.)

Edited July 29, 2017 by ahrtee
Changed "threat" to "danger" to make it clear it wasn't John's threat I was talking about.

[CluelessDrifter]

14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

As Sam rightly pointed out, in Salvation I think, he was only going off to college like any other 18 year old. It was John who closed that door by telling him not to come back and Dean who chose to standby and allow that to happen. I hardly think it's unreasonable that Sam chose to disassociate himself from the family that chose to disown him. A lesser man would have told Dean to go away and find John himself under those circumstances. The fact Sam actually agreed to help showed there was still some lingering love there IMO. 

'If I'd called, would you have picked up?' has always told me that Sam didn't when Dean had tried, so Dean stopped trying.  And Sam was more than a little reluctant to help at first.  He was hostile and flat out refused until Dean convinced him to help, and not, I think, for John, but because Dean said he didn't want to do it alone, which is why I don't think Sam picked up the phone when Dean called.  I think he knew that if anyone could convince him to come back, it would be Dean (even though that last part was never specifically stated and part of my head-canon).

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not to get too off topic here  I might be misremembering but I think there was discussion about down votes and I think it was decidit would make the community unnecessarily combative.

Personally, I don't consider an upvote necessarily an endorsement of every word of a post.

I think it's already pretty combative whenever certain episodes are being discussed.