S05.E15: Fighting Fire With Fire

[legaleagle53]

9 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Oh yeah, as much as I gave them any thought before this episode, I thought Paul was totally justified in leaving Curtis. It's just this particular incident that makes me feel sorry for Curtis. And it's not even really feeling bad for Curtis as it is that uncomfortable second hand embarrassment feeling. 

I can understand Paul's wanting a divorce.  What I can't accept was serving the petition in a way that Paul knew was going to unnecessarily hurt and humiliate Curtis, especially since Paul's reason for leaving was that he couldn't live with the idea that Curtis might go out on a vigilante mission one night and not come back alive.  Way to show Curtis that you REALLY care about him, Paul!

[statsgirl]

32 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Since Curtis didn't agonise for a moment before ending their marriage to go fight crime, I'm not completely anti-Paul. After all, he said "me or vigilantism" and Curtis went "vigilantism, duh" so Curtis disinterest got there first. I still think this was a dick move.

I think Curtis was just stunned at being side-swiped like that.  Clearly Paul have been thinking about it for some time, he'd even been thinking Curtis was having an affair (with someone into BDSM?) and he couldn't believe that this man who he loved so much was issuing this ultimatum.  No compromising.

It sounds like Paul cut off all communication after that.  Curtis was still thinking that he could work out a compromise that would work for both of them and Paul was visiting a lawyer.  You deserve better, Curtis.

Edited March 4, 2017 by statsgirl

[Hiveminder]

10 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think Curtis was just stunned at being side-swiped like that.  Clearly Paul have been thinking about it for some time, he'd even been thinking Curtis was having an affair (with someone into BDSM?) and he couldn't believe that this man who he loved so much was issuing this ultimatum.  No compromising.

It sounds like Paul cut off all communication after that.  Curtis was still thinking that he could work out a compromise that would work for both of them and Paul was visiting a lawyer.  You deserve better, Curtis.

Agreed. I don't even really care about Curtis, and I think he deserves better. 

[RobertDeSneero]

Eh, we'll just see Prometheus round up Paul, Wild Dog's daughter, and Diggle's wife to use against Oliver's team and we'll either have a Curtis/Paul reconciliation or Curtis angsty over a dead Paul.

[johntfs]

19 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

But why would Prometheus do it? Why throw Vigilante off a building then call it in as Chase? And why did nobody ask Chase any questions about it? And what was Chase reporting anyway? He clearly wanted to lead the Arrow team to the Vigilante but then why make the call? 

The police are likely sorting through hundreds of anonymous tips about Prometheus and the Vigilante.  One more tip would have simply fallen into the queue.  If Adrian Chase, the district attorney calls in a sighting of the Vigilante it gets instant priority and police action.  Chase probable hoped the Vigilante was injured from the fall and that the police or Oliver and his team would be able to catch/kill him.  Chase wants Oliver alive and tortured.  The Vigilante wants him dead, so Chase wants the Vigilante off the playing board.

[Sunshine]

I hate Oliver's thank-you for saving my life speech to the team.  He sounded like a boss talking to his employees.  It came off as grateful but I'm surprised you could do it.  Diggle and Felicity have always had his back.  Curtis helped at the end of S4.  Dinah just did her job as a police officer.  Rene should really have been the only wild card.    

[legaleagle53]

30 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I hate Oliver's thank-you for saving my life speech to the team.  He sounded like a boss talking to his employees.  It came off as grateful but I'm surprised you could do it.  Diggle and Felicity have always had his back.  Curtis helped at the end of S4.  Dinah just did her job as a police officer.  Rene should really have been the only wild card.    

And speaking of people who have always had his back, I wish Thea had given as her reason for quitting not that she was afraid that Oliver was right about her turning into their mother but that she was tired of always having to save Oliver from his own stupidity and of him treating her like crap for doing it.  And Felicity should do the same thing.

[GHScorpiosRule]

38 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

And speaking of people who have always had his back, I wish Thea had given as her reason for quitting not that she was afraid that Oliver was right about her turning into their mother but that she was tired of always having to save Oliver from his own stupidity and of him treating her like crap for doing it.  And Felicity should do the same thing.

Seriously. She gave him shit when he came back from the dead, and he was going through PTSD, and came off to me as bratty and not  trying to understand what he was dealing with. I wanted that to rip into Oliver.

Edited March 5, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[legaleagle53]

13 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Seriously. She gave him shit when he came back from the dead, and he was going through PTSD, and came off to me as bratty and trying to understand what he was dealing with. I wanted that to rip into Oliver.

Are you talking about Thea or Felicity?  I didn't watch the earlier seasons of Arrow.  But either way, those ladies should have torn him a new one and told him to take his judgmental, hypocritical, condescending, holier-than-thou attitude and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. They should also have told him not to run crying to them when Susan nukes his entire world by outing him as the Green Arrow.

Edited March 5, 2017 by legaleagle53

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Are you talking about Thea or Felicity?  I didn't watch the earlier seasons of Arrow.  But either way, those ladies should have torn him a new one and told him to take his judgmental hypocritical, condescending, holier-than-thou attitude and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. They should also have told him not to run crying to them when Susan nukes his entire world by outing him as the Green Arrow.

Thea-since I quoted your comment about what Thea should have said to him. We barely saw Felicity in the first season, but I already posted upthread that Felicity should have told Oliver to kiss her ass when he told her to fix things for him with Susan.

[legaleagle53]

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

Thea-since I quoted your comment about what Thea should have said to him. We barely saw Felicity in the first season, but I already posted upthread that Felicity should have told Oliver to kiss her ass when he told her to fix things for him with Susan.

Ah, I thought so.  But thanks for the clarification.  :)

[Hiveminder]

Random thought, but wouldn't it be hilarious if instead of Oliver killing his dad this was all about the time Oliver stole Chase's girlfriend?

If that 'you stole my girlfriend story' story was actually true, Chase must have been so pissed of when he learned that that was the guy who also killed his dad. 

[Sunshine]

5 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Random thought, but wouldn't it be hilarious if instead of Oliver killing his dad this was all about the time Oliver stole Chase's girlfriend?

If that 'you stole my girlfriend story' story was actually true, Chase must have been so pissed of when he learned that that was the guy who also killed his dad. 

with Samantha as the girlfriend?

[finnaire]

Nah, all roads lead back to St. Laurel. She was the pretty, mean girl, in love with the popular, rich jerk. And he was the socially awkward misfit who loved her from afar.

Edited March 5, 2017 by finnaire

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, finnaire said:

Nah, all roads lead back to St. Laurel. She was the pretty, mean girl, in love with the popular, rich jerk. And he was the socially awkward misfit who loved her from afar.

 

2 hours ago, Sunshine said:

with Samantha as the girlfriend?

Honestly either one of these would be gold in the "so bad it's good" kind of way.  Laurel would be most fitting since everything else this season has revolved around her, but since IMO the show went off the rail with last year's BMD, I wouldn't mind tying back to her this year (and then put all the crap behind us and get back to the show I liked.)

Edited March 5, 2017 by BkWurm1

[AudienceofOne]

5 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Random thought, but wouldn't it be hilarious if instead of Oliver killing his dad this was all about the time Oliver stole Chase's girlfriend?

Chase: You stole me girlfriend

Oliver: My bad

Chase: S'okay

Me: He's evil

So this whole "reveal" thing was kind of lost on me

[Hiveminder]

I was just reading jbuffyangel's review, and I wondered if maybe this season would have been a little better if we knew who Prometheus was from the start and got to watch him ingratiate himself to Oliver as the DA knowing that he was just fucking with him. It would have saved us from this lackluster reveal. 

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I was just reading jbuffyangel's review, and I wondered if maybe this season would have been a little better if we knew who Prometheus was from the start and got to watch him ingratiate himself to Oliver as the DA knowing that he was just fucking with him. It would have saved us from this lackluster reveal. 

Maybe. Especially since it's not like I want to go back and rewatch this season to rewatch Chase's scenes to see them in a new light. 

[Chaser]

I think so.

It would have been really interesting if they truly embraced the mirror concept and during 5A worked in scenes of Chases life in and out of the Prometheus suit. 

[DigitalCount]

While that might have been interesting, Oliver would not have been done any favors by that storyline. It would probably make him look even dumber.

[DeadZeus]

That's the problem with doing masked villains as late as season 5... Obviously it's going to be a new castmember! The only real curveball they could have thrown was Tommy Merlyn but that went out of the window when they had to use a  cutout of his face for the hologram in the crossover episode. (So obviously he wasn't available)
So knowing who he was might have been more interesting i agree.

Also hard to call Oliver a "hero" this season for me. Just like S3 and S2 almost everything bad happening to the city is Olivers fault!

That's the only thing i liked about S4, finally he had the chance to be a hero and save ppl from someone who wasnt out to get HIM. Just like S1.

Edited March 5, 2017 by DeadZeus

[thegirlsleuth]

I do think it would have resulted in the audience thinking "Figure it out, dummy!"  if they revealed at the start of the season. I think they should have revealed it in 509, right after the Billy death,  but then it would have been weird when we had our big stretch of episodes when he wasn't on scene and didn't do anything.  They should have revealed in 509 and then cancelled Chase's trip to the Bahamas so the forward movement of the season didn't die.

[DigitalCount]

3 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

The only real curveball they could have thrown was Tommy Merlyn but that went out of the window when they had to use a  cutout of his face for the hologram in the crossover episode like.(So obviously he wasn't available)

How crazy of a meta curveball would that have been though? We get lulled into thinking, no way, they had to paste him into the crossover episode, whatever he's not coming back and then WHAM he pulls off the mask and it's Tommy.

[Hiveminder]

34 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

While that might have been interesting, Oliver would not have been done any favors by that storyline. It would probably make him look even dumber.

You're probably right, because these writers enjoy writing Oliver as dumb, but someone with some skill could have written it so Chase's act around Oliver seemed believable. 

[statsgirl]

There is literally no way that I can see that Oliver could possibly have been written as more stupid he is right now about Susan. Nope, none.  With Chase it would have been him failing to realize that a trusted co-worker was working behind his back (something I'm sure many of us have experienced) but that's better than the woman he's desperately trying to get back into bed with.

If we knew that Chase was Prometheus then we could have got more about his twisty plans and how he's reacting to Oliver refusing to let him fall on his sword now.   The reason of course that we didn't get that is because Oliver is the star of the show and every story has to not only revolve around him but be told form his viewpoint.  I think a far better use of the season would be to take some of the time spent on Oliver's POV and stumbling around Susan to do a psychological study of Chase and how he's circling around Oliver.  But they'd rather have their Gotcha moment than write a better show.

On another topic, I was thrilled to see Diggle talking to Felicity but the more I think about it, the "empathy is your superpower", the more it burns me. Not only is it sexist and patronizing, it's not true.  Where was Felicity empathy to Malcolm Meryln in s3 when Oliver came back from the mountain? Where was her empathy to Slade?  Or towards DD in the car after Laurel's funeral?  It's crap and it's purpose is to put her back in the box that Oliver and Diggle feel comfortable with.  I'm shocked to realize that that's one good thing about the n00bs, they would probably accept this side of Felicity.

[statsgirl]

Diggle to Oliver in a future episode:  I told Felicity to drop Helix because she needs to be better than the rest of us are.  Nevertheless she persisted.

[bijoux]

I found the Diggle/Felicity scene primarily lacking in warmth that I expect from them, but what's actually funny about the dialogue is that it contradicts Diggle telling Oliver that he and Felicity weren't better people than Oliver three whole episodes ago. If you want to look at it from a certain angle, you could interpret it as, Naaah, totes better people than him, but it felt rude telling that to his face. 

[ComicFan777]

I do think that Diggle's empathy talk did have an important point - Felicity lost that line that she used to have in distinguishing between troubled people versus criminals like Slade and Merlyn.  She now sees people as targets when she desperately wants to save someone.  Dig brought up that the councilman is different than other people that they take down - he isn't a criminal like Slade or Prometheus or even like the Count.  The only dirt that she could find on him with her big data cache was that he covered up his wife's suicide.  She was taking advantage of someone's personal pain in order to save Oliver when realistically, Oliver probably should have gotten impeached because he took advantage of his position as mayor to cover up accidentally killing Malone.

When you start seeing people as targets, there is a really fine line before you start toeing the line of hero vs villain.  The difference is that a hero has some kind of moral code.  Diggle once told Oliver that he stayed on his team to remind him when "you're fighting a war...you have no idea what war does to you...how it scrapes off little pieces of your soul and you need someone to remind you of who you are."  I think that Diggle was trying to remind her of that line that everyone on the team continues to struggle to keep, that line that he sees her crossing when she fails to notice that the councilman is not like other criminals that they tackle.  It probably could have been said better, but I think good friends should look out for each other and point that out when they notice something before it's too late.

The problem I had with the empathy talk was that he didn't stop to listen to her, see if she was ok, or prompt her to open up about the struggles that she is having that caused her to start crossing this line.

Edited March 5, 2017 by ComicFan777

[tv echo]

Not surprised by the current poll results (Felicity joining Helix way in the lead with 42%, Delicity scenes in 2d and 3d place, Oliver scenes in single digits)...

POLL : Favourite scene from Arrow - Fighting Fire with Fire
Posted by Bradley Adams at March 05, 2017 
http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/03/poll-favourite-scene-from-arrow.html

Edited March 5, 2017 by tv echo

[Midnight Lullaby]

The Delicity talk worked for me because this time Felicity wanted to use the fact that a guy wanted to hide his wife's suicide as blackmail material..it's not the same thing as blackmailing a criminal for me. Of course with Arrow it's complicated to see where the line is..for example I don't believe street thugs deserve to die but the show is selling it as a not problematic things because they are criminals..still now I feel like Felicity is doing something different that was she used to do. She and Diggle blackmailed that bad guy in season 2 too so up until the last episode I don't think she did something more questionable that what they all did with no problems in the past.

[statsgirl]

The councilman wasn't a criminal but he was doing something bad -- refusing to let Oliver testify at his impeachment hearing.  That's why Thea wanted some dirt on him; so that he would agree to let Oliver testify.  He's not a poor defenseless innocent.

[legaleagle53]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The councilman wasn't a criminal but he was doing something bad -- refusing to let Oliver testify at his impeachment hearing.  That's why Thea wanted some dirt on him; so that he would agree to let Oliver testify.  He's not a poor defenseless innocent.

But dragging him through the mud by exposing the details of his wife's suicide and his role in covering it up would only have caused innocent people (his wife's family, for starters) to suffer the pain of reliving that tragedy.   Is it acceptable to make them collateral damage for Oliver's sake?

Edited March 5, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Midnight Lullaby]

Exactly..is it worth keeping Oliver as mayor exposing that a woman committed suicide and making her family suffer? For me it isn't. If people's lives were in danger here then I could say maybe the sacrifice is worth it. I don't know.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[ComicFan777]

I guess where do you draw the line?  Oliver was abusing his power as mayor to cover his alter ego killing someone.  Councilman being typical politician.  Both of which are not innocent, so where should the line be drawn so that there be two different set of laws for heroes and everyone else.  Felicity would have exploited a man's personal secret to get her friend to keep his job.

[statsgirl]

Oliver being able to testify didn't mean that he was going to keep his job; it meant that he was given a chance to fight for his job.

Kullen didn't have to let the information be exposed -- he could have let Oliver testify.  It's not like Thea was pushing him to embezzle government funds or pass a bill dangerous for the environment.

We never found out why he was refusing to let Oliver testify.  For all we know it could have been for a completely petty reason, like he was angry that Robert had beaten him in a business deal.  Or remember the council member earlier in the season who refused the Glades renovation project because he stood to make a lot of money if it didn't go through?  Maybe Kullen wanted Oliver out so he could get a crony into the mayor's chair.  Or because Oliver opposed something that was going to get him money or more power.

Until I know why Kullen was refusing to let Oliver testify, I can't condemn Thea or Felicity for pushing him.  We've had more than enough examples in the last two months of real life government officials refusing to do the right thing for petty, selfish reasons.

Edited March 5, 2017 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

I actually thought this was the same dude HT was dealing with in 505.

[statsgirl]

Good catch!  Yes, it's the corrupt councilor from 505.

And now we have a possible reason for his refusal to let Oliver testify and why he wants him to hang (metaphorically). (Also possibly new light on why Mrs. Kullin did what she did, and a not-so nice reason why he might want to keep it quiet.)

Kullin wants Oliver out because HTOliver kept him from cheating the Glades and personally profiting.  Thea wants to use personal information to push Kullin to do the right thing.  It really is fighting fire with fire.

Edited March 5, 2017 by statsgirl

[ComicFan777]

But how does it make Oliver (and his team) any better than the other corrupt politician when he basically becomes just as bad of a corrupt politician for personal gain while hurting a woman's family?  How corrupt do you allow Oliver to be because he might do some good for the city as mayor in comparison to someone else who might take his place? 

[legaleagle53]

4 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

But how does it make Oliver (and his team) any better than the other corrupt politician when he basically becomes just as bad of a corrupt politician for personal gain while hurting a woman's family?  How corrupt do you allow Oliver to be because he might do some good for the city as mayor in comparison to someone else who might take his place? 

Anytime anyone tries to justify a course of action that is morally questionable at best by saying "but you're missing the bigger picture," I know to run -- not walk, run -- as far and as fast in the other direction as I possibly can.  Committing a little sin to catch someone in a bigger sin is still committing a sin.

[insomniadreams88]

It all boils down to they need Oliver to keep being mayor for plot. Even though it seems that the best thing he's done as mayor is stay alive. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I could see the bigger picture if they spent time on Oliver being a good mayor and doing a real difference for the city..but they spent time on trying to cover up a murder he committed instead, LOL. I don't think they made it clear why Oliver needs to be mayor for the greater good.

[statsgirl]

I'm perfectly willing to let Oliver fight it out on level ground to see if he should stay the mayor or not.  What I'm opposed to is a corrupt councillor forcing Oliver to be handicapped in the fight because he thinks Oliver stopped him from getting a lot of money through corruption.

The show never said that if Kullin let Oliver testify on his own behalf, Oliver would keep the job.  It was just about whether Oliver could testify or not. If he couldn't he was bound to lose. If he could, it was still up in the cards.

This is the parallel to s1 Oliver who told the people on The List "Do the right thing or I will kill you."  The common denominator is to get the corrupt person to do the right thing.

If the information Felicity had found was that Kullin was corrupt (the information we had in ep 505) would it have been okay for Thea to use it?  To say "If you don't let Oliver testify, I will expose your corruption?"

If Mrs. Kullin had committed suicide because her husband was abusive and she felt she couldn't get away any other way, would it be okay to threaten him with exposing that?

I think we know too little of the situation to make it black or white.

[ComicFan777]

Being the mayor and Green Arrow poses an ethical dilemma since he is now part of the system and holds a lot of authority...if Oliver doesn't get a fair impeachment trial due to a corrupt councilman, then maybe he could use the appeals process and file that he should have been afforded the basic due process right to testify in his impeachment trial - he could use the legal system correctly instead of resorting to dirty politics.

[benteen]

Star City, where the Mayor, the DA, the coroner and many others can obstruct an investigation and lie to the public and not get impeached.  Where the police department it not only corrupt but conceals from the public whenever dangerous criminals escape prison.  Where CEO's can devalue the stock of the companies they run and the board of directors can reward them for it.  But apparently too the place where you can issue miracle vaguely-worded ordinances that register guns and protect the rights of gun owners at the same time.  Star City is truly a magical place.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Arrow Takes On Politics

Just like the real world, everything is solved by a few five-minute speeches and good intentions.

[finnaire]

22 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Good catch!  Yes, it's the corrupt councilor from 505.

And now we have a possible reason for his refusal to let Oliver testify and why he wants him to hang (metaphorically). (Also possibly new light on why Mrs. Kullin did what she did, and a not-so nice reason why he might want to keep it quiet.)

Kullin wants Oliver out because HTOliver kept him from cheating the Glades and personally profiting.  Thea wants to use personal information to push Kullin to do the right thing.  It really is fighting fire with fire.

I'm confused. Why was it Kullen's duty/responsibility to "let" Oliver testify? There were 8-10 councilman on the committee. Anyone of them had the right to call on Oliver if they had so wanted. None of them called on him and the impeachment rules didn't allow for Oliver to offer his own testimony. The only reason Kullen became a potential pawn is because he was the only one Felicity dug dirt up on.  The impeachment rules, as defined, may have been unfair to the accused, but all of the councilmen, including Kullen, were acting within those rules. 

Now, that they've voted against impeachment (really?) maybe Mayor Queen should look into getting the rules modified. You know, for next time. 

[statsgirl]

Thea said something about the person prosecuting would not call Oliver as a witness without Kullin's say so and Kullin was the only one that Thea asked Felicity to get dirt on. I can't find a clip of the scene now. The one on the previous page has been taken down.

Maybe he was in a special position or maybe the writers were just too lazy to come up with more names.

[bijoux]

You could also argue that he doesn't smell of roses according to 505 and I think Thea knows that. So it's not going against a complete innocent. The suicide was beneath both of them, though. So, while it would have made sense to dig up some dirty deals and this would have tracked with his previous appearance, the storyline's need for Thea and Felicity to make "bad" decisions took presendence.

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, bijoux said:

You could also argue that he doesn't smell of roses according to 505 and I think Thea knows that. So it's not going against a complete innocent. The suicide was beneath both of them, though. So, while it would have made sense to dig up some dirty deals and this would have tracked with his previous appearance, the storyline's need for Thea and Felicity to make "bad" decisions took presendence.

Threatening to expose the truth about him covering up his wife's suicide is rough, but the thing that keeps it from being too too far is that Thea wouldn't HAVE to follow through on exposing him if he refused her blackmail.  She could be running a bluff.  It's dirty politics but in a city like Star City, I wouldn't expect anything less.  

[tv echo]

Felicity: "I sent Thea something to sway Councilman Kullens. Apparently, he's the swing vote on Oliver's impeachment."

FYI: Another source for Arrow video clips...

Watching the Series vid list - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2vAna7TGmH2iCIxeV_z1g

Edited March 7, 2017 by tv echo