Mary Winchester: This Girl is on Fire

[Aeryn13]

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Wow, the hatred for an actress that is just embracing her role as written is unbelievable.

I hate the character. I dislike the actress` attitude and I dislike her acting. To me that is not hating her. Hate is when I say I`d be happy to see Mary burn on the ceiling again. Obviously I`d never say something like that about the actress. But I don`t see why she should be exempt from criticism. In terms of actors, I`ve seen Jensen, Jared and especially Misha getting thrown real hate at them, threats. Not liking how Sam Smith comes across on social media or thinking she has limited acting range is a very far cry from that. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Aeryn13

[Pondlass1]

I've said this before.  It's the unfortunate expressions and lack of warmth.  The mother actress on the show Fear The Walking Dead had the same problem. Her cold expression did not match the words coming out of her mouth.  Plus the writers had her caring about everyone but her son and she was super zombie hunter overnight. Fans complained and I think she died (or the show's over?).  It's the same with Mary IMO.

I complain a lot about acting on TV series.  It's dreadful most of the time.  No one talks like that in real life. All affected and over the top.  It jumps me out of any series I'm watching and I'd be thinking Who talks/reacts like that? 

It's why I zeroed in on Jensen right from the start.  What Dean's thinking/feeling/saying all seems real to me.  Even if he's not got script, he's right there in the scene reacting to what's going on.  

It's what got me hooked into this show actually. No matter how dire the script, I knew I was going to see some good acting.

[SueB]

I am emotionally attached to Mary.  At first it was only through the eyes of the boys.  The first time I heard her speak in person (with that voice), I was literally emotional. This was before she came back. She was "Mom" to the boys and all the warmth and love that engenders.  So when she wasn't just warnth and sweetness, it was a harsh wakeup.  I think the show did a great job of making me feel the boys pain of her not being their emotional patron Saint.  She was literally their martyr.  No one alive can live up to that. 

But I think over the last two years she's starting to flesh out.  I think it's been fairly realistic that she embraced hunting -- its something she was good at, her boys were in it, it gave her a sense of power over the monsters.  Given she was first killed by a demon and then resurrected by God's sister -- I can totally relate to her need to have a sense of control over her own life.  From Mary's mental timeline she was first a hunter's kid, then a hunter (as a teen), then a very YOUNG bride, then a mother, then a perpetual mother for over 30 years, then suddenly... what. Her identity crisis has to be pretty freaking epic IMO.  I think she tried to reconnect with hunting, failed MISERABLY by trusting the Brits, then put on the role of resistance leader, and now she's back home and ... hunter again.  So I think she's done a lot of moving around being SOMETHING.  Not necessarily being just "Mary".  And she's still mother to two awesome human beings who's day job is to save the planet - again.   Its a complex character.

And of course from a meta perspective, the show has to only have her on-screen a limited amount.  They've tried this season with phone calls and other mentions to keep her 'present' but she still a guest star.  And if she wasn't she'd be a MASSIVE liability to the boys.  She's the natural hostage.  In "Damaged Goods" they had Nick say that demons are keeping track of Sam & Dean AND Mary and stay away because they are afraid of them.  Well, that's smart.  They need to give us the conceit that Mary can hold her own (with Donna and Bobby as nearby backup) in order to allow her to live and the boys storyline progress.  

So.. this last episode, "Damaged Goods", I LOVED her portrayal.  It's exactly where she can "fit" long term and not be dead.  I hope we continue to get call outs and the occaisional episode.  Maybe a few more "offscreenville" comments about meeting up would help as well. 

In sum, I think they've brought the character along well.  I think Sam Smith does a great job given the complex character.  When they hired her for her 'fridge scene' in 2005, they didn't plan on having a major character arc for her 12 years later.  I think she's doing a  helluva job given all the landmines out there that she has to both avoid and then is written to step on.  

Edited January 26, 2019 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Wow, the hatred for an actress that is just embracing her role as written is unbelievable.

I hate the character. I find the actress lacking, if one is inclined to believe the writing is intended to show Mary in the light in which she sees her. I don't believe that, and as a result think they both suck. No hatred involved.

ETA her tweet was quite snarky, so she invited the clapback, IMO. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by gonzosgirrl
Auto correct blows.

[trudysmom]

SueB, I always appreciate your posts.  I don't often agree with your views but you express them well and they are always thought provoking, (sometimes heartbreaking!).  I'm trying to see Mary through your eyes somewhat, and I can see the validity of some of your points.  My entire reason for watching the show is the brothers.  So when they were delighted to have her back, so was I.  When she left, both brothers made me feel their pain, but I did not feel hers.  To me, she just looked disinterested, even with the 'I love you'  before she left.  I've watched the episode many times just to watch the emotions play over the faces of the boys (and Dean kills me every time), and I want to see some tenderness or  regret from her but I just don't.  On this, we'll have to agree to disagree.  Again, I enjoy your posts, they nearly always make me see things a bit differently than I had before.

[SueB]

Thanks @trudysmom  I appreciate you reading my (typicall unpopular) posts.  I believe every character, other than Sam and Dean, are primarily there for us to see their impact on the brothers.  And the brothers impact on them.  Cas has truly achieved an independent status in terms of storyline but what impacts him also impact the brothers. Same with Jack; although I think he’s still there primarily to explore the brothers having a ‘found family’ ‘child’.  

And Mary is part of that melange of family.  But her story is still about how she impacts the boys. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

38 minutes ago, SueB said:

Thanks @trudysmom  I appreciate you reading my (typicall unpopular) posts.  I believe every character, other than Sam and Dean, are primarily there for us to see their impact on the brothers.  And the brothers impact on them.  Cas has truly achieved an independent status in terms of storyline but what impacts him also impact the brothers. Same with Jack; although I think he’s still there primarily to explore the brothers having a ‘found family’ ‘child’.  

And Mary is part of that melange of family.  But her story is still about how she impacts the boys. 

Does that make Nickifer the exception that proves the rule? Because his storyline stopped being about the Winchesters a long time ago, IMO.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Does that make Nickifer the exception that proves the rule? Because his storyline stopped being about the Winchesters a long time ago, IMO.

Nickifer is supposed to be a dark mirror for Dean this year IMO.  Further, ‘sometimes you have to give up’ on Nick was also supposed to be Dean prepping Sam to let go. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Nickifer is supposed to be a dark mirror for Dean this year IMO.  Further, ‘sometimes you have to give up’ on Nick was also supposed to be Dean prepping Sam to let go. 

Apart from this one line where Dean clearly did project when talking to Sam, I don`t see how Nick would be a mirror for Dean this year at all. The show is not usually subtle when it wants to present mirrors and nothing in any of the episodes showed or even hinted at that purpose. At best he is supposed to be "the (narrative) road not taken" for Sam, and I don`t even mean in terms of how Sam would react but after a prolongued possession by Lucifer. So even that is flimsy to me. 

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Nickifer is supposed to be a dark mirror for Dean this year IMO.  Further, ‘sometimes you have to give up’ on Nick was also supposed to be Dean prepping Sam to let go. 

I don't see this at all. Apart from one throwaway line there was no connection between Dean's path and Nick's. Dean's mission is self sacrificing and maybe rash, while Nick has been murderous, and all about himself since Lucifer left. So no I don't see him as any kind of mirror 4 Dean.

[trudysmom]

I like your take on Mary, PinkChicken, food for thought.

[SueB]

Under spoiler tags until Thursday:@gonzosgirrl and @juppschmitz

Spoiler

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Sound a lot like the arguments made for why she should've been thrilled to have a chance to be with her sons. If she was the Mary we knew pre-12×01 I'd agree with you. But the fickle Ice Queen that is Mary 2.0? Not so much. 

The Mary for episode 12.1 was just snatched from Heaven.  The Mary for episode 300 has been living on earth or in an AU Apocalypse World for nearly 18 months.  She's given  up that lasting happiness existence and dealt with the real world.  Which has had some great moments but also a lot of blood, death & monsters.  Her reaction to seeing John is naturally MUCH different after living for 18 months than it would be seeing her grown children days after being in Heaven.  

 

[Pondlass1]

I think the Buffy series handled Buffy's return from heaven so much better.  She was odd and distant and audiences really didn't know why - until her heartfelt admission to Spike.  

The writers haven't bothered to tell us anything except what a super duper hunter she is/was. We don't know what Mary is thinking or feeling from one episode to the next   

For me the character is a fail on the part of the actress and the writers. And I do believe TPTB are aware and attempting to fix things.

[ILoveReading]

55 minutes ago, SueB said:

living for 18 months

This is the problem is that in 18 months Mary has made no effort to really get to know her sons or really be part of their lives.  She's always got an excuse as to why she needs to leave or needs more time.

Damaged good is a perfect example.  She knows Dean was possessed again and has an arch angel trapped in his head.  Yet she makes no effort to actually check on Dean or go see him.  We're told Bobby is away (guess even he needs space).  Her son needs her and she can't be bothered.

Dean even had to cook his own "goodbye" dinner and talk about what a terrible cook he is to make her feel better.

Yes, I know some of this is logistics of Sam Smith not being in every ep, but the writers and the actress seem to be clueless as to how this comes across.  I get it when she first came back it was awkward but whatever relationship she has with her sons, all the effort has come on their part.

Edited February 6, 2019 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

The problem I have with Mary is that IMO Sam Smith gives Mary no layers. She doesn't seem like "real" person. Now if the show had bothered to spend more than a hot minute on Mary feeling weird in s12 or if  Smith wasnt so bent on making Mary a "badass" but gave her the kindness and compassion that eminated from Amy Gumenick's Mary, I might feel something for her but I don't. Ad in lieu of that, if the show had Mary spend a hot minute telling the boys she will never feel like her old self again, and explained how she doesn't feel the same because Heaven or resurrection reasons. Instead all that is said isbthatary is not JUST a Mom, and the actress continues to playary as cold and distant even after her sons gave her the space she wanted. Hell I could live with Mary being overwhelmed by guilt still and she can't face them.but that was supposedly changed after Mary said she was afraid Sam would hate her or be scared of her.
It's bad writing, IMO, and a not layered performance that makes me dislike Mary. There is no redeeming her, for me,  at this point, even if she dies again for the boy, I won't feel anything for her.

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The problem I have with Mary is that IMO Sam Smith gives Mary no layers. She doesn't seem like "real" person. Now if the show had bothered to spend more than a hot minute on Mary feeling weird in s12 or if  Smith wasnt so bent on making Mary a "badass" but gave her the kindness and compassion that eminated from Amy Gumenick's Mary, I might feel something for her but I don't. Ad in lieu of that, if the show had Mary spend a hot minute telling the boys she will never feel like her old self again, and explained how she doesn't feel the same because Heaven or resurrection reasons. Instead all that is said isbthatary is not JUST a Mom, and the actress continues to playary as cold and distant even after her sons gave her the space she wanted. Hell I could live with Mary being overwhelmed by guilt still and she can't face them.but that was supposedly changed after Mary said she was afraid Sam would hate her or be scared of her.
It's bad writing, IMO, and a not layered performance that makes me dislike Mary. There is no redeeming her, for me,  at this point, even if she dies again for the boy, I won't feel anything for her.

Yeah, I have to agree with all of this; and at this point, I also think that the only possible way to salvage the character even a little bit, would be to write her off(back to Heaven would work fine for me) with the explanation that she'd come back "wrong".

[gonzosgirrl]

There is nothing and no one that will change my feelings about Mary, short of an in-canon, in text version of her saying she is a) sorry for the way she has been since her return, b) sorry that Dean had to lose his childhood and pay throughout his entire life for her deal (not just poor Sammy), and c) neither Dean nor Sam ameliorate any of it by brushing it off. Forgiveness is okay, but it has to be earned. IMO of course.

[SueB]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 There is no redeeming her, for me,  at this point, even if she dies again for the boy, I won't feel anything for her.

 

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, I have to agree with all of this; and at this point, I also think that the only possible way to salvage the character even a little bit, would be to write her off(back to Heaven would work fine for me) with the explanation that she'd come back "wrong".

 

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There is nothing and no one that will change my feelings about Mary, short of an in-canon, in text version of her saying she is a) sorry for the way she has been since her return, b) sorry that Dean had to lose his childhood and pay throughout his entire life for her deal (not just poor Sammy), and c) neither Dean nor Sam ameliorate any of it by brushing it off. Forgiveness is okay, but it has to be earned. IMO of course.

Well these certainly are definitive statements. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

 

 

Well these certainly are definitive statements. 

Yes. Unless you read past the comma, in my case at least.

Edited February 7, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Well these certainly are definitive statements. 

Yup.  Mary is a lost cause for me.

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Well these certainly are definitive statements.

Mary is a lost cause for me too.  Because the writers don't seem to get why (some) people can't warm up to her.  It's not that she needs space, its not that she has trouble adapting, and it definitely has nothing to do with her not tucking Sam and Dean in and singing Soft Kitty when when they are sick.

They seem to keep piling it on.  Damaged Goods is a perfect example.  Mary ignores Dean until calls her, he has too cook his own dinner, he tells a story that ends with John yelling at him.  But somehow the show wants us to see this as "bonding."

The actress certainly doesn't help as she seems annoyed when she has to play "nightgown" Mary.

I'd honestly have more respect for the character if they had her say she can't connect, that she can't see these two strangers as her sons and doesn't really want too.  It happens, it's real.  Rather than the show continue to act like Mary should be a candidate for mother of the year because she answered a phone call. 

[trudysmom]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

or if  Smith wasnt so bent on making Mary a "badass"

Given the tweet that went out yesterday from her, I can't agree more. 

"Hey SPNSEA-Feeling a lack of questionable parenting in your life? Introducing the #DubiousMothers Photo op." 

There's a picture of her and Ruth Connell.  I feel even more strongly after reading that than before that it's 50/50 writing and Sam Smith's deMEANor.  

[SueB]

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Mary is a lost cause for me too.  Because the writers don't seem to get why (some) people can't warm up to her.  It's not that she needs space, its not that she has trouble adapting, and it definitely has nothing to do with her not tucking Sam and Dean in and singing Soft Kitty when when they are sick.

They seem to keep piling it on.  Damaged Goods is a perfect example.  Mary ignores Dean until calls her, he has too cook his own dinner, he tells a story that ends with John yelling at him.  But somehow the show wants us to see this as "bonding."

The actress certainly doesn't help as she seems annoyed when she has to play "nightgown" Mary.

I'd honestly have more respect for the character if they had her say she can't connect, that she can't see these two strangers as her sons and doesn't really want too.  It happens, it's real.  Rather than the show continue to act like Mary should be a candidate for mother of the year because she answered a phone call. 

And I did see it as bonding. I felt her concern was evident and it was clear she took note of John’s parenting issue.  I am not remotely bothered by Dean taking over the cooking. I see the issue of who is calling whom and how much Mary is in their lives as a meta issue.  I’m really happy with her portrayal this year.  As for Damaged Goods, I thought their conversation was great.  I loved the look on her face when she saw him snoring.  Just because the writing and acting doesn’t work for some doesn’t mean the show objectively failed.  It’s all subjective. And the character works for me. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by SueB

[Cambion]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

And I did see it as bonding. I felt her concern was evident and it was clear she took note of John’s parenting issue.  I am not remotely bothered by Dean taking over the cooking. I see the issue of who is calling whom and how much Mary is in their lives as a meta issue.  I’m really happy with her portrayal this year.  As for Damaged Goods, I thought their conversation was great.  I loved the look on her face when she saw him snoring.  Just because the writing and acting doesn’t work for some doesn’t mean the show objectively failed.  It’s all subjective. And the character works for me. 

 

IA with this.  But I think the main reason the character works for me is that when she first said she needed space and fought with the boys I knew she was never really going to be their mother.  So I don't expect anything from her. She was just going to be another friend, maybe.  Sometimes maybe doing motherly things, but not really relating to them that way.  If she was going to be written and portrayed as their mother it would have started back then. She's a not a good parent (and neither was John).  So since then, I've seen her as a symbol of what was lost and can never be regained.  A sort of underlined reminder of the boys' disappointing lives.  Mary was a hunter and tried to be a mom and couldn't leave hunting behind as shown in the Asa Fox episode when she was still at it after Dean was born.  Finishing up old cases?  Bitch, please.  If you really wanted to leave hunting behind you would have.  And then hunting turned John into a militant, revenge-driven, less than perfect parent, to put it nicely.  JDM can keep reminding us about how much John loved the boys, and I think that was shown (I saw that in the first seasons, anyway), but he truly was not thinking about raising his kids in any kind of way that was beneficial to them.  He set them up for lives of pain and regret, and in Dean's case to never have any real self-esteem.

But hunting is what defines the boys, especially Dean, in every way imaginable.  Both positive and negative.  Even Sam couldn't leave it behind when Dean came knocking.  Would Jess have still died and Sam gone back out of revenge? Yeah, he definitely would have. YED was planning to hurt and goad Sam however he could and of course to Sam, revenge is hunting what hurt him, just like his dad programmed him and Dean to do.  Then add in the time loops back to their parents' young lives.  The MOL legacy of their family, the hunting legacy of their family, there really was no escape for these guys.  A normal, apple pie life isn't really even a pipe dream.  Whenever that little gen comes up I hear it as bitter resentment for something they are never going to be allowed to have.  They are locked into hunting as surely as any prison and the key was long ago destroyed.

And as characters, sure we care about them and want to see them be nurtured and have good things and be rewarded for their heroism and all.  But you know, if all the things we complain about on their behalf were fixed, the show would be about a couple of soccer dads living in suburbia and I don't care who you are -- nobody would watch that sh*t!  lol

Edited February 7, 2019 by Cambion

[Bergamot]

9 hours ago, Cambion said:

But I think the main reason the character works for me is that when she first said she needed space and fought with the boys I knew she was never really going to be their mother.  So I don't expect anything from her. She was just going to be another friend, maybe.  Sometimes maybe doing motherly things, but not really relating to them that way.  If she was going to be written and portrayed as their mother it would have started back then. She's a not a good parent (and neither was John).  So since then, I've seen her as a symbol of what was lost and can never be regained.  A sort of underlined reminder of the boys' disappointing lives.

This would actually be an interesting portrayal of the character -- I like it, Cambion! But from what I see, that is not what the show is trying to tell us about Mary. Which is, she is not a bad mother, it's just that Dean is being unreasonable in what he expects!  When Dean has recently been freed from his possession by Michael, and without having even talked with him about his experience, Mary takes off to spend time with Bobby, we are supposed to see her insistence that Dean call if he needs her as touching and heartwarming, not ironic and sad. When he later visits her, Dean tells Mary that her return has meant everything to him and Sam. He fondly remembers the one meal she can cook. I just don't think that we are supposed to see her as a disappointment.

I think that the show is trying to write and portray her as their mother, not just another hunter friend --  as someone who has filled the void in their lives, not as someone they can't expect too much from because it turns out she isn't good at being a parent (or even good at being a human being with empathy, as far as I'm concerned.)  But the gulf between what they tell us they are showing with Mary, and what they are actually showing us, is just too big for me.  It is my biggest problem with the character. Ultimately, it doesn't matter that much to me whether they make Mary good, bad, or indifferent. The main thing is,  don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's raining, show.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Bergamot

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

This would actually be an interesting portrayal of the character -- I like it, Cambion! But from what I see, that is not what the show is trying to tell us about Mary. Which is, she is not a bad mother, it's just that Dean is being unreasonable in what he expects!  When Dean has recently been freed from his possession by Michael, and without having even talked with him about his experience, Mary takes off to spend time with Bobby, we are supposed to see her insistence that Dean call if he needs her as touching and heartwarming, not ironic and sad. When he later visits her, Dean tells Mary that her return has meant everything to him and Sam. He fondly remembers the one meal she can cook. I just don't think that we are supposed to see her as a disappointment.

I think that the show is trying to write and portray her as their mother and someone who has filled the void in their lives, not as someone they can't expect too much from because it turns out she isn't good at being a parent (or even good at being a human being with empathy, as far as I'm concerned.)  But the gulf between what they tell us they are showing with Mary, and what they are actually showing us, is just too big for me.  It is my biggest problem with the character. Ultimately, it doesn't matter that much to me whether they make Mary good, bad, or indifferent. The main thing is,  don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's raining, show.

I wish I could like this post more than once.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

This would actually be an interesting portrayal of the character -- I like it, Cambion! But from what I see, that is not what the show is trying to tell us about Mary. Which is, she is not a bad mother, it's just that Dean is being unreasonable in what he expects!  When Dean has recently been freed from his possession by Michael, and without having even talked with him about his experience, Mary takes off to spend time with Bobby, we are supposed to see her insistence that Dean call if he needs her as touching and heartwarming, not ironic and sad. When he later visits her, Dean tells Mary that her return has meant everything to him and Sam. He fondly remembers the one meal she can cook. I just don't think that we are supposed to see her as a disappointment.

I think that the show is trying to write and portray her as their mother, not just another hunter friend --  as someone who has filled the void in their lives, not as someone they can't expect too much from because it turns out she isn't good at being a parent (or even good at being a human being with empathy, as far as I'm concerned.)  But the gulf between what they tell us they are showing with Mary, and what they are actually showing us, is just too big for me.  It is my biggest problem with the character. Ultimately, it doesn't matter that much to me whether they make Mary good, bad, or indifferent. The main thing is,  don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's raining, show.

Truth bombs falling everywhere on PTV this morning :)  Agree, 100%.

The show vs the tell is worlds apart when it comes to Mary, IMO. And if Sam S is getting her motivation from what the writers/showrunners are telling her, rather than what ends up on the screen then that explains a lot. As does her response to 'favourite scenes' at tvline.com. I mean, seriously, Sam?

 

[ILoveReading]

I'd have more respect for Mary if she told Sam and Dean she doesn't see herself as their mother rather than it trying to pretend she is a good mother and the failing is on Dean's part . 

I find Mary neither badass or mothering.  She's comes across as an ice queen that only cares about finding a man.

First she chose Ketch and Brits over her sons.

Then she choose the AU people over , but once they were back and she could hook up with Bobby, and basically abandoned the people she wanted to abandon her sons for. 

Now that John is back,  Bobby Who?

Do the writers really think Mary is coming off warm and loving because of a scene here and there.  (This is meant as a rhetorical question).

[Myrelle]

Ugh. 

Sorry, but yes, I stand behind what I said up up thread now more than ever before-she just needs to go, IMO.

[SueB]

IMO the purpose of Mary, from a major story perspective, is her effect on the boys.  And it's been both good AND bad -- on purpose.  We've never seen Dean ask for help like he has from Mary ("It's got me spinning and I just want to talk").  There's a vulnerability he shows with Mary that he doesn't even show with Sam.  He never calls Sam just to talk.  The only other time I can remember him asking for help like this was when he asked Cas' help on talking with Mary -- but that was played for laughes.  For whatever reason, Dean feels comfortable talking to her like a parent versus a responsibility.  That's freakin' awesome in my mind.  Sam, OTOH, is more on equal footing with Mary.  If anything, he feels like he can guide Mary.  He feels comfortable providing personal guidance based on his "fish out of water" experiences.  That's not as unique for Sam as he plays that roll with Jack.  But with Jack he's much more parental.  With Mary it's compassionate but not parental IMO.  

And as John said this week, when it comes as a choice b/w John or Mary -- there IS no choice.  Save Mary.  John had 20+ years with them (albeit sometimes crappy).  And Mary is definitely in a not-normal parent/child relationship with her boys but there's still love there.  

Going forward, I expect Mary is going to be a bit of a mess after John's visit.  I kinda think Sam may be the one she leans on more than Dean.  That fits in my head. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Sorry, but yes, I stand behind what I said up up thread now more than ever before-she just needs to go, IMO.

I think in the 300th, she has been the same as she has since being brought back: gets invested in whatever currently strikes her fancy, here it was John back and is self-involved. She is able to get all kinds of invested quickly when SHE wants. She just never wanted with her sons, not really.  

Dean pretty much has given up on trying to wring emotional blood from a stone and I think he has overcome his utter disappointment with who she turned out as a person. He has pretty much settled with her. Like, she is part of the family dinner/family reunion because well technically she is part of the family and he likes that puzzle back together but I highly doubt he himself expects anything anymore from her as a mother. I don`t see him acting like a son with her but going through the motions when she is around.

Sam has gotten a breadcrumb from her this Season but I`d say he, too, has moved on and accepted the emotional disappointment that is Mary. 

So really, I think the brothers are actually more or less okay now with Mary. My problem is basically me not enjoying any of her screentime. Even in Lebanon, I could not care less about her love story with John, bawling and all that. Thanks to the last 2 and a half Seasons, I have zero emotional investment in that character or her relationships. She is like the Nickifer of the Winchesters now.  

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, SueB said:

We've never seen Dean ask for help like he has from Mary ("It's got me spinning and I just want to talk")

But I disagree.  I find Dean is the most open character on the show and wears his heart on his sleeve.

He asked Andrea if they could talk to Lucas and he opened up about his feelings about his mom.

I remember him calling Bobby as asked for his help when he was worried about Sam. 

He called John in Home.  "I need your help Dad."

He's had meaningful conversations with Cas.   I loved the ones they had at the end of Great Pumpkin

He's appealed to God for help several times.

The problem is often times when Dean asks he doesn't get an answer, and Mary is no exception.

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean pretty much has given up on trying to wring emotional blood from a stone and I think he has overcome his utter disappointment with who she turned out as a person. He has pretty much settled with her. Like, she is part of the family dinner/family reunion because well technically she is part of the family and he likes that puzzle back together but I highly doubt he himself expects anything anymore from her as a mother. I don`t see him acting like a son with her but going through the motions when she is around.

I agree and in my opinion this is how Jensen is playing it.  He loves Mary but I don't really see him thinking she is someone he can count on.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

He loves Mary but I don't really see him thinking she is someone he can count on.

He`d be deaf, dumb and blind to think otherwise so yes, I agree. It helps that she is seldom around and mostly involved in her own stuff, that makes her not a chore for him so much.

[Casseiopeia]

I think my montage of Mother Mary memories would have been very different than Dabb/Berens.

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think my montage of Mother Mary memories would have been very different than Dabb/Berens.

I think it's very telling that they had to create all new flashbacks to show a caring, loving Mary instead of using actual clips from past eps.  Most memorial montages show old clips that are supposed to make us nostalgic/sad.  

[Myrelle]

I'm just so glad she's gone.

And May she never come back. 🙏

[ILoveReading]

We should change the name of the thread. 

Mary Winchester, that girl is on fire.  (twice).

[ahrtee]

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

We should change the name of the thread. 

Mary Winchester, that girl is on fire.  (twice).

Actually, this would be four times, wouldn't it?  If we count the time in Home, and if we consider her being vaporized by Jack as on fire.  Maybe just "this girl is on fire (again)."

Edited April 14, 2019 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe just "this girl is on fire (again)."

Or "This Girl Stays On Fire?"

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Or "This Girl Stays On Fire?"

How about "This Girl has been Extinguished".

[ILoveReading]

This girl is on fire, more often then not.

[juppschmitz]

"Mary Winchester - you're fired!"

[Pondlass1]

Buffy's return to earth was written so much better than Mary's.  Both were ripped from heaven and both behaved oddly and coldly upon return.  Writers provided Buffy the opportunity to explain her feelings in a heartfelt conversation with Spike.  Heaven was warm and safe and beautiful - real life was cold and harsh and ugly. The Scoobies expected her to be grateful.  She was not. But we understood.

I can relate to how Mary must've felt - dragged back into reality,  presented with two grown sons she did not know.  But Mary was never given any opportunity to communicate feelings.  Her sons, especially Dean, were openly angry and heartbroken with her but she seemed so aloof.  It seemed to them that she couldn't stand to be around them and must go away, she'd rather be in a world she did not know than be with them.  What a slap in the teeth.  I cannot imagine any mother doing this.  

 We didn't need soap opera or endless exposition of their lives growing up - but at least some love and care and understanding - it was an epic Supernatural mother and child reunion after all

The writers seem so thick when it comes to devising reasons for a guest star to miss episodes. Kevin was on a rusting boat instead of safe in the bunker for instance. (Although the bunker hardly seems same anymore since they installed that revolving front door)

But Dabb had no time for heartwarming mother and child reunions.  He was pushing his Wayward Gals spin off and maybe the actress would be part of it.  Mary must become a cold hard super hunter overnight. 

And so the character  changed. 

They realized their mistake after a while and scurried to give her a heart, but it was too late.  And now I can't watch the early seasons.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Pondlass1

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

And now I can't watch the early seasons.

This is the most egregious thing of all.

I think we all realized that maybe Dean's memories of his mother might be a little 'rose-coloured', a la WIAWSNB. I don't think anybody wanted or expected Nightgown Mary, or SuzyHomemaker Mary, including Dean. But it wasn't only Dean's memories that gave us our knowledge of Mary, it was actual time travel and seeing the younger woman for real. And *that* character had no relation whatsoever to this cold, self-centered woman that was Mary 2.0.

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is the most egregious thing of all.

I think we all realized that maybe Dean's memories of his mother might be a little 'rose-coloured', a la WIAWSNB. I don't think anybody wanted or expected Nightgown Mary, or SuzyHomemaker Mary, including Dean. But it wasn't only Dean's memories that gave us our knowledge of Mary, it was actual time travel and seeing the younger woman for real. And *that* character had no relation whatsoever to this cold, self-centered woman that was Mary 2.0.

Yeah, this is the worst thing about her resurrection to me, too.

But I can still watch the early season episodes and appreciate them as much as I always have mostly because I think that I have somewhat blocked the memory of the last three seasons of this show now that we've gotten an end time for it.

[sarthaz]

Mary needs your help to win a Primetimer award: 

[catrox14]

On 6/17/2019 at 11:14 AM, sarthaz said:

Mary needs your help to win a Primetimer award: 

She got my vote!

[FlickChick]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She got my vote!

Mine as well. I also voted for Michael leaving Dean's body in "Worst Payoff...". However, I suspect "Game of Thrones" will win any category for which they're nominated. 😞

[sarthaz]

32 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Mine as well. I also voted for Michael leaving Dean's body in "Worst Payoff...". However, I suspect "Game of Thrones" will win any category for which they're nominated. 😞

I mean, it's nearly winning "Biggest Cliffhanger" ... 

[ahrtee]

40 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Mine as well. I also voted for Michael leaving Dean's body in "Worst Payoff...". However, I suspect "Game of Thrones" will win any category for which they're nominated. 😞

I'm just glad there are some other nominees than GoT (in the first round voting, it looked like the top 5 nominees in quite a few categories were all GoT eps or characters).

I voted for as many SPN nominations as possible (and I'm the one who nominated Mary for the Useless Twit award, so thank you for voting! 😊)  I just wish Nickifer had made it into the "must die now" category.